RE: 1kW per square meter.......free
On this topic of oil consumption and the oil producers being opposed to Alternative energy sources, the following link gives a good break down of oil consumption and usage. http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_m arket_basics/Full_contents.htm A couple of interesting things jump out, 1) Oil is not a big fuel when used for power generating 2) The US really is the worlds biggest consumer of oil, mainly for powering your cars. Reading this tread highlights another east /west divide across the Atlantic. In Europe for many years the Green lobby has been growing in power, now having a significant voice in the European Parliament. Car manufactures now relies their products are seen as environmental disasters. So they are the ones taking the lead in alternative fuel sources for vehicle, not Government legislation. Developing high brid vehicles, Hydrogen fuel cells and making more and more efficient engines. A modern European car will run at 55 miles per gallon or better. But still keep a good performance. The Energy Generators themselves are equally concerned, in Scotland the world largest wind warm is now being planned. Across Europe wind power, experimental wave power and bio mass plants are springing up. Solar power though, is not a good option for the sometime wet areas of northern Europe. Andrew Carson - Senior Compliance Engineer, Xyratex, UK Phone: +44 (0)23 9249 6855 Fax: +44 (0)23 9249 6014 -Original Message- From: George Stults [mailto:george.stu...@watchguard.com] Sent: 10 June 2002 21:15 To: 'Ken Javor'; Scott Lacey; Ted Rook Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: 1kW per square meter...free Just a related thought here. I read last year in Science news weekly, that the world wide availble power from offshore wave action is about 72 terawatts. Its efficiently harvested in about 300 feet of water, before the waves dissapate on sandbars etc. The platform technology is based (ironically perhaps) on oil drilling rigs. The cost per kwhr is supposedly competitive with wind power (6 to 7 cents/kwhr if memory serves.) With that kind of steady supply of energy, one could convert water to hydrogen and oxygen, use the hydrogen to power cars and forget about oil, more or less. There are a few details of course. Regards George Stults -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 11:52 AM To: Scott Lacey; Ted Rook Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: 1kW per square meter...free More accurately, it is not energy efficiency but energy storage volumetric efficiency, or the ability to store large amounts of energy densely that is important in a vehicle. An electric motor is much more efficient than an internal combustion engine, but that is more than offset by the poor energy density (and mass) of batteries compared to gasoline or other chemical fuels. -- >From: "Scott Lacey" >To: "Ted Rook" >Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org >Subject: Re: 1kW per square meter...free >Date: Sat, Jun 8, 2002, 12:15 PM > > > Ted, > > While most "alternative energy" schemes sound very promising, energy efficiency > problems make most of them impractical for real world use. Small solar charging > systems are great for maintaining a charge on a seldom used battery in a spare > automobile, or similar application, but the ratio of charge time to usage > has to be > large. The problems with a solar powered automobile would be: > > 1) Lots of expensive (and unsightly) solar panels plus the numerous serial and > parallel connections needed to make a usable system. Even then, the car would > have to be parked in the sunlight many more hours than it was driven. > > 2) An expensive buck/boost charge controller to compensate for the enormous > voltage variations due to weather. > > 3) A trunk full of heavy, expensive batteries, with their need to be eventually > replaced. > > 4) And finally, how would the batteries be charged if it rained for four or > five days > straight? > > The hybrid gas/electric vehicles seem to be the only practical electric > vehicles made > so far. And even these seem to be expensive enough that sales have to be > subsidized. > > I know people who have tried to use solar dc electrical systems at remote camps. > You have to strictly ration electrical usage even if you only use the place on > weekends after it has charged all week. Most people eventually revert to using > combinations of propane, gasoline, and kerosene for light and cooking. A gallon of > Coleman fuel will last a week running a stove and some lights. > > As to the energy efficiency of gasoline, years ago I watched a > demonstration where a > homemade mortar lobbed a sand-filled beer can hundreds of yards using a > SPO
RE: 1kW per square meter.......free
Just a related thought here. I read last year in Science news weekly, that the world wide availble power from offshore wave action is about 72 terawatts. Its efficiently harvested in about 300 feet of water, before the waves dissapate on sandbars etc. The platform technology is based (ironically perhaps) on oil drilling rigs. The cost per kwhr is supposedly competitive with wind power (6 to 7 cents/kwhr if memory serves.) With that kind of steady supply of energy, one could convert water to hydrogen and oxygen, use the hydrogen to power cars and forget about oil, more or less. There are a few details of course. Regards George Stults -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 11:52 AM To: Scott Lacey; Ted Rook Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: 1kW per square meter...free More accurately, it is not energy efficiency but energy storage volumetric efficiency, or the ability to store large amounts of energy densely that is important in a vehicle. An electric motor is much more efficient than an internal combustion engine, but that is more than offset by the poor energy density (and mass) of batteries compared to gasoline or other chemical fuels. -- >From: "Scott Lacey" >To: "Ted Rook" >Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org >Subject: Re: 1kW per square meter...free >Date: Sat, Jun 8, 2002, 12:15 PM > > > Ted, > > While most "alternative energy" schemes sound very promising, energy efficiency > problems make most of them impractical for real world use. Small solar charging > systems are great for maintaining a charge on a seldom used battery in a spare > automobile, or similar application, but the ratio of charge time to usage > has to be > large. The problems with a solar powered automobile would be: > > 1) Lots of expensive (and unsightly) solar panels plus the numerous serial and > parallel connections needed to make a usable system. Even then, the car would > have to be parked in the sunlight many more hours than it was driven. > > 2) An expensive buck/boost charge controller to compensate for the enormous > voltage variations due to weather. > > 3) A trunk full of heavy, expensive batteries, with their need to be eventually > replaced. > > 4) And finally, how would the batteries be charged if it rained for four or > five days > straight? > > The hybrid gas/electric vehicles seem to be the only practical electric > vehicles made > so far. And even these seem to be expensive enough that sales have to be > subsidized. > > I know people who have tried to use solar dc electrical systems at remote camps. > You have to strictly ration electrical usage even if you only use the place on > weekends after it has charged all week. Most people eventually revert to using > combinations of propane, gasoline, and kerosene for light and cooking. A gallon of > Coleman fuel will last a week running a stove and some lights. > > As to the energy efficiency of gasoline, years ago I watched a > demonstration where a > homemade mortar lobbed a sand-filled beer can hundreds of yards using a > SPOONFUL of gasoline! It graphically proved the point about why it is so hard to > replace the internal combution engine. > > Scott Lacey > On 7 Jun 2002 at 13:52, Ted Rook wrote: > >> >> sorry, off topic, mostly for US residents: >> >> just imagine everyone's car being coated with 'solar cell generator' >> material with a storage device in the trunk.. >> >> and how about air-conditioners that run on the Stirling cycle from a >> solar energy collector... >> >> lousy for the oil lobby but fantastic for the human race >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety >> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. >> >> Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ >> >> To cancel your subscription, send mail to: >> majord...@ieee.org >> with the single line: >> unsubscribe emc-pstc >> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com >> Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com >> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org >> Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org >> >> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ >> Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" > > > >
Re: 1kW per square meter.......free
More accurately, it is not energy efficiency but energy storage volumetric efficiency, or the ability to store large amounts of energy densely that is important in a vehicle. An electric motor is much more efficient than an internal combustion engine, but that is more than offset by the poor energy density (and mass) of batteries compared to gasoline or other chemical fuels. -- >From: "Scott Lacey" >To: "Ted Rook" >Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org >Subject: Re: 1kW per square meter...free >Date: Sat, Jun 8, 2002, 12:15 PM > > > Ted, > > While most "alternative energy" schemes sound very promising, energy efficiency > problems make most of them impractical for real world use. Small solar charging > systems are great for maintaining a charge on a seldom used battery in a spare > automobile, or similar application, but the ratio of charge time to usage > has to be > large. The problems with a solar powered automobile would be: > > 1) Lots of expensive (and unsightly) solar panels plus the numerous serial and > parallel connections needed to make a usable system. Even then, the car would > have to be parked in the sunlight many more hours than it was driven. > > 2) An expensive buck/boost charge controller to compensate for the enormous > voltage variations due to weather. > > 3) A trunk full of heavy, expensive batteries, with their need to be eventually > replaced. > > 4) And finally, how would the batteries be charged if it rained for four or > five days > straight? > > The hybrid gas/electric vehicles seem to be the only practical electric > vehicles made > so far. And even these seem to be expensive enough that sales have to be > subsidized. > > I know people who have tried to use solar dc electrical systems at remote camps. > You have to strictly ration electrical usage even if you only use the place on > weekends after it has charged all week. Most people eventually revert to using > combinations of propane, gasoline, and kerosene for light and cooking. A gallon of > Coleman fuel will last a week running a stove and some lights. > > As to the energy efficiency of gasoline, years ago I watched a > demonstration where a > homemade mortar lobbed a sand-filled beer can hundreds of yards using a > SPOONFUL of gasoline! It graphically proved the point about why it is so hard to > replace the internal combution engine. > > Scott Lacey > On 7 Jun 2002 at 13:52, Ted Rook wrote: > >> >> sorry, off topic, mostly for US residents: >> >> just imagine everyone's car being coated with 'solar cell generator' >> material with a storage device in the trunk.. >> >> and how about air-conditioners that run on the Stirling cycle from a >> solar energy collector... >> >> lousy for the oil lobby but fantastic for the human race >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety >> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. >> >> Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ >> >> To cancel your subscription, send mail to: >> majord...@ieee.org >> with the single line: >> unsubscribe emc-pstc >> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com >> Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com >> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org >> Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org >> >> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ >> Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" > > > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ > Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" > -
Re: 1kW per square meter.......free
Ted, While most "alternative energy" schemes sound very promising, energy efficiency problems make most of them impractical for real world use. Small solar charging systems are great for maintaining a charge on a seldom used battery in a spare automobile, or similar application, but the ratio of charge time to usage has to be large. The problems with a solar powered automobile would be: 1) Lots of expensive (and unsightly) solar panels plus the numerous serial and parallel connections needed to make a usable system. Even then, the car would have to be parked in the sunlight many more hours than it was driven. 2) An expensive buck/boost charge controller to compensate for the enormous voltage variations due to weather. 3) A trunk full of heavy, expensive batteries, with their need to be eventually replaced. 4) And finally, how would the batteries be charged if it rained for four or five days straight? The hybrid gas/electric vehicles seem to be the only practical electric vehicles made so far. And even these seem to be expensive enough that sales have to be subsidized. I know people who have tried to use solar dc electrical systems at remote camps. You have to strictly ration electrical usage even if you only use the place on weekends after it has charged all week. Most people eventually revert to using combinations of propane, gasoline, and kerosene for light and cooking. A gallon of Coleman fuel will last a week running a stove and some lights. As to the energy efficiency of gasoline, years ago I watched a demonstration where a homemade mortar lobbed a sand-filled beer can hundreds of yards using a SPOONFUL of gasoline! It graphically proved the point about why it is so hard to replace the internal combution engine. Scott Lacey On 7 Jun 2002 at 13:52, Ted Rook wrote: > > sorry, off topic, mostly for US residents: > > just imagine everyone's car being coated with 'solar cell generator' > material with a storage device in the trunk.. > > and how about air-conditioners that run on the Stirling cycle from a > solar energy collector... > > lousy for the oil lobby but fantastic for the human race > > > > > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ > Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
Re: 1kW per square meter.......free
Agree, that's why my post was phrased to use the car as an energy collector, while static in the car park eight hours per day, and not to suggest using solar electric power as a substitute for gasoline. We have invested 100 years engineering development into the four stroke IC engine and now accept 30% efficiency from diesel and gasoline IC engines. The Stirling cycle engine has been neglected as a power source because it doesn't burn petroleum products so won't make money for the oil interests. Not sure about your A/C math. It seems to require lots of assumptions. My point was to prompt consideration of how much incoming energy we ignore because it is 'low grade' and yet at the same time we consume huge quantities of 'high grade' energy in the form of gasoline, natural gas and electricity. This is v. wasteful. The answer IMHO lies with individuals taking steps to reduce domestic power consumption and not with centralized power companies, in whose interest it is to keep things as they are. My electricity costs 17c per kWh. I can generate it using a gasoline generator for a fraction of that cost but the fly in the ointment is the capital cost and maintenance requirements. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
Re: 1kW per square meter.......free
My physics is rusty but how many horsepower per Watt? A family car isn't going to run on a horsepower value in the single digits. That solar-powered race they run or used to run in Australia - those are pretty light-weight race cars. And the Australian Outback when they run/ran that race was pretty sunny - what do the people in Seattle do, or most places in the northern hemisphere in winter? And using the energy incident on a car or house to cool that house isn't going to be terribly efficient. The best it could be at 100% efficiency would be to remove the effect of the insolation* on the vehicle/house, which would still leave the vehicle/house at the same temperature as the surroundings. That might work in some places but down here south of the Mason-Dixon line that would not get it. * Not a typo insolation = incoming solar radiation -- >From: "Ted Rook" >To: "<" >Subject: 1kW per square meter...free >Date: Fri, Jun 7, 2002, 1:52 PM > > > sorry, off topic, mostly for US residents: > > just imagine everyone's car being coated with 'solar cell generator' > material with a storage device in the trunk.. > > and how about air-conditioners that run on the Stirling cycle from a solar > energy collector... > > lousy for the oil lobby but fantastic for the human race > > > > > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ > Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" > --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
