RE: Fiber and AC mains wire runs
Hi Folks I second Richard Hughes' comments, but would also add the following: - The IEC 60634/HD 384/ BS7671 etc documents are aimed at wiring installation designers - and they certainly differ from country to country in many respects, notably in the sections on special locations, and in some of the national wiring requirements (e.g. local cables, sockets, plugs and over-current protection requirements). - In addition, each country has its own sets of national and /or electrical contractors installation and verification guides which give the local interpretations. However, most of the guides are only available in the national language! (Done a bit of that over the years!) Therefore, you would have to identify one or more sample countries and put in some considerable work to investigate those in detail to get the flavours being sought. John Allen ERA Technology Ltd From: richhug...@aol.com [mailto:richhug...@aol.com] Sent: 22 April 2003 15:29 To: richwo...@tycoint.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: re: Fiber and AC mains wire runs Richard, As I mentioned in my original reply, the building wiring rules vary from one country within the EU to another. While it is true that the UK Wiring Regulations (BSI 7671) are based on the CENELEC Harmonised Document HD384, which is itself based on the IEC 60364 series of standards, it would be wrong of someone to think that if they purchased a copy of BS 7671 and then based their whole European installation strategy on this UK document that they would be certain not to have difficulties elsewhere in Europe. Of course, if someone wanted to know what the requirements are in the UK and thereby get a 'flavour' of the requirements elsewhere, then that would be a different matter and BS 7671 (also known as the IEE Wiring Regulations) would be a good place to start. They may also wish to look at the IEE web site (www.iee.org) for books that provide aditional guidance when applying the IEE Wiring Regulations. Regards, Richard Hughes. From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com] Sent: 22 April 2003 13:57 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Fiber and AC mains wire runs The EU wiring rules are based upon HD384 which is based upon IEC 60364. You can purchase a single part copy as BSI 7671. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 5:26 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Fiber and AC mains wire runs I read in !emc-pstc that Cereceres, David dcerece...@pelco.com wrote (in b2cc0e0f2c10d511b86600b0d06898420541f...@localhost.pelco.dns) about 'Fiber and AC mains wire runs' on Wed, 16 Apr 2003: Is there a European equivalent of the NEC that I could possibly reference? An *international* standard, IEC 60364, a huge multi-part standard. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p
Re: Fiber and AC mains wire runs
I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A205F8 4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6A04675EB8@flbocexu05) about 'Fiber and AC mains wire runs' on Tue, 22 Apr 2003: The EU wiring rules are based upon HD384 which is based upon IEC 60364. You can purchase a single part copy as BSI 7671. BS 7671 is a *UK interpretation* of HD384 and IEC 60364. Other interpretations, significantly different, apply in other European countries. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Fiber and AC mains wire runs
David, Be careful here. While fiber itself is non-conductive, and the outer jacket is non-conductive, there are fiber cables that have metal sheaths below the outerjacket - these are used for mechanical strength. Should the outer jacket become damaged, and there is cross-over you could have a problem. I'd look into this further if I were you. John A. Juhasz Compliance Engr. GE Interlogix Fiber Options Div. Bohemia, NY From: Cereceres, David [mailto:dcerece...@pelco.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 4:11 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Cc: Toste, David Subject: Fiber and AC mains wire runs Hello Group, Does anyone know of any European or North American restrictions against running fiber and high voltage (115-230v ac) through the same conduit entry of a product? I am aware of certain standards that allow running high and low voltage wiring together, provided the wiring has sufficient insulation. I am also aware that fiber jacketing is electrically non-conductive. So would it follow that there are no restrictions running high voltage wiring and fiber optics together through the same conduit entry? I have reviewed the NEC but have been unable to come to a definitive conclusion. Is there a European equivalent of the NEC that I could possibly reference? Once again, your expert advice is greatly appreciated, David R. Cereceres Safety Engineer Pelco 800-289-9100x3493 559-292-1981x3493 dcerece...@pelco.com mailto:dcerece...@pelco.com www.Pelco.com http://www.pelco.com/ This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
re: Fiber and AC mains wire runs
Richard, As I mentioned in my original reply, the building wiring rules vary from one country within the EU to another. While it is true that the UK Wiring Regulations (BSI 7671) are based on the CENELEC Harmonised Document HD384, which is itself based on the IEC 60364 series of standards, it would be wrong of someone to think that if they purchased a copy of BS 7671 and then based their whole European installation strategy on this UK document that they would be certain not to have difficulties elsewhere in Europe. Of course, if someone wanted to know what the requirements are in the UK and thereby get a 'flavour' of the requirements elsewhere, then that would be a different matter and BS 7671 (also known as the IEE Wiring Regulations) would be a good place to start. They may also wish to look at the IEE web site (www.iee.org) for books that provide aditional guidance when applying the IEE Wiring Regulations. Regards, Richard Hughes. From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com] Sent: 22 April 2003 13:57 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Fiber and AC mains wire runs The EU wiring rules are based upon HD384 which is based upon IEC 60364. You can purchase a single part copy as BSI 7671. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 5:26 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Fiber and AC mains wire runs I read in !emc-pstc that Cereceres, David dcerece...@pelco.com wrote (in b2cc0e0f2c10d511b86600b0d06898420541f...@localhost.pelco.dns) about 'Fiber and AC mains wire runs' on Wed, 16 Apr 2003: Is there a European equivalent of the NEC that I could possibly reference? An *international* standard, IEC 60364, a huge multi-part standard. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Fiber and AC mains wire runs
The EU wiring rules are based upon HD384 which is based upon IEC 60364. You can purchase a single part copy as BSI 7671. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 5:26 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Fiber and AC mains wire runs I read in !emc-pstc that Cereceres, David dcerece...@pelco.com wrote (in b2cc0e0f2c10d511b86600b0d06898420541f...@localhost.pelco.dns) about 'Fiber and AC mains wire runs' on Wed, 16 Apr 2003: Is there a European equivalent of the NEC that I could possibly reference? An *international* standard, IEC 60364, a huge multi-part standard. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Fiber and AC mains wire runs
David: The Insulated Conductors Committee of the IEEE has a fiber optic cables working group that has come up with a document called P1428 - IEEE Guide for Installation Methods for Fiber Optic Cables in Electric Power Generating Stations and in Industrial Facilities. You can also check the fiber optic section of the IEEE ICC web site: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/pes/icc/ for more information as to whether this guide has been published. In power cable engineering, the term high voltage is used for cables rated above 69 kV and above. Those cables employ a semiconductive jacket over the insulation for installations that are in proximity to communications cables. Not sure what the practice is for low voltage (115-230V ac)but the ICC working group on fiber optic cables should be able to give you some guidelines. Hope it helps. Evangeline Cometa CSA International Tel. 416-727-2671 -Original Message- From: Cereceres, David [mailto:dcerece...@pelco.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 4:11 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Cc: Toste, David Subject: Fiber and AC mains wire runs Hello Group, Does anyone know of any European or North American restrictions against running fiber and high voltage (115-230v ac) through the same conduit entry of a product? I am aware of certain standards that allow running high and low voltage wiring together, provided the wiring has sufficient insulation. I am also aware that fiber jacketing is electrically non-conductive. So would it follow that there are no restrictions running high voltage wiring and fiber optics together through the same conduit entry? I have reviewed the NEC but have been unable to come to a definitive conclusion. Is there a European equivalent of the NEC that I could possibly reference? Once again, your expert advice is greatly appreciated, David R. Cereceres Safety Engineer Pelco 800-289-9100x3493 559-292-1981x3493 dcerece...@pelco.com mailto:dcerece...@pelco.com www.Pelco.com http://www.pelco.com/ --IMPORTANT NOTICE-- This message is intended only for the use of the person or organization to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by email or telephone and delete the original message immediately. Thank you. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Fiber and AC mains wire runs
In a message dated 16/04/2003 21:23:18 GMT Daylight Time, dcerece...@pelco.com writes: David The wiring regulations in Europe are based on a CENELEC Harmonised Document (HD) rather than a European Norm (EN) and, as such, it is permissible for requirements to vary from country-to-country in Europe to a much greater extent than is the case for EN 60950, EN 60065, etc. You may therefore find that there is no single answer for the whole of Europe. You say 'high voltage' - but that means different things to a logic designer vs. a power utility engineer. Certainly, in the UK it is not uncommon to run backbone optical fibres in a spiral fashion around the earth return conductor strung between extra-high tension pylons. However, that is a very special application. For mains and optical cables run in a single conduit it is necessary to understand who could access (and damage accidentally) the electrical and optical cables. For instance, it is far from uncommon for underground cables to be damaged by diggers repairing roads etc. Normally, the repairing of optical cables and electrical cables falls to two or more organisations who have operatives specialised in optical safety and electrical safety respectively. Even if only one company is involved in maintaining/repairing both optical and electrical cables, the personnel may well be different. Your application may just be between two linked buildings or even within a single room, but you should nevertheless consider this question. So, are the high voltage cables double-insulated such that they could be touched by untrained personnel? If not, then re-splicing an optical fibre could expose 'optical technicians' to unexpected and unacceptable electrical safety hazards. What is the optical power being transmitted down the fibre? What is the Hazard Level per IEC 60825-2 and would it be acceptable for the 'electrical technicians' to be exposed to this radiation from broken fibres? Within IEC TC76 (responsible for the optical safety standards - IEC 60825 series) and IEC TC 86C (responsible for fibre-optic cable standards) and the ITU-T there has been discussion regarding potential fire hazards caused by the transmission of high optical powers (e.g. in the order of 1W) under certain circumstances. It is a theoretical possibility that a fault in a fibre carrying high optical powers could burn the insulation off of electrical cables carrying high electrical powers, thereby causing an electrical short-circuit. Whether this is the case for you at the moment is something for you to determine - as is the possibility that it is relatively easy to increase the transmitted optical power at some future date. You also talk of optical fibres being insulating. That may be so for certain fibres, but it is also possible to get steel reinforced optical cables. If such optical cables are being used, is the insulation from the high voltage conductors to the (hopefully, earthed) steel reinforcing cables adequate? Of course, your application could just involve running double-insulated mains cables and non-metallic fibres at both Class 1 (825-1) and Hazard Level 1 (825-2) in a single channel for a short run. In such a case you may possible conclude that the potential safety hazards have been reduced to a sufficiently low level. Regards, Richard Hughes Safety Answers Ltd.
