RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
According to this recent article http://electronicdesign.com/Articles/ArticleID/21302/21302.html, the number used is typically 30 to 40. I have read that the BMW 7-series cars are the champions in this area, with about double that number. Donald Borowski Schweitzer Engineering Labs Pullman, WA, USA Ralph McDiarmid ralph.mcdiarmid@ xantrex.com To Sent by: EMC List Server emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org cc 08/26/2009 12:22 Subject PMRE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? Far too many is my guess. :-) Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc From: Morse, Earl (E.A.) [mailto:emo...@ford.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 12:05 PM To: Ralph McDiarmid; EMC List Server Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? snip Anyone care to guess how many micros are in an automobile? Earl - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Far too many is my guess. :-) Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc From: Morse, Earl (E.A.) [mailto:emo...@ford.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 12:05 PM To: Ralph McDiarmid; EMC List Server Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? snip Anyone care to guess how many micros are in an automobile? Earl snip - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Vehicle malfunction due to cell phone interference is highly unlikely. Automotive tests are performed at a significantly higher level over a very large range of frequencies. Automotive also supports on-board transmitter testing to ensure that 100 watt radio users won't cause malfunctions. The most that I have seen from a cell phone is a some beeps and pops in the audio system. Anyone care to guess how many micros are in an automobile? Earl From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ralph McDiarmid Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 1:01 PM To: EMC List Server Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? All the more reason not to use cell phones while driving your late model automobile now stuffed full of the all-important microprocessor and associated electronics. I can imagine all sorts of nasty interaction with anti-lock braking and cruise-control systems. And why does a range, microwave oven or a toaster need a microprocessor in the first place? Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc. From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 6:26 AM To: EMC List Server Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? I wonder if Andrei normally leaves his cell phone balanced between two of the cooktop burners? OTOH, I would expect to see 5 to 10 V/M at two meters distance from a cell phone, so at a half-meter or less, I would be surprised to NOT see some interaction. And then, on yet another hand, proximity of cell phones should be expected for household systems. If your system just happens to be a controller that regulates watering, flame cooking, microwave cooking, radiant heating, etc; you should verifying that immunity doesn't create a safety hazard. An appliance manufacturer shouldn't kid themselves that slapping a microprocessor into a gas oven doesn't create risk that isn't addressed by safety standards that were written for manual appliances. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Fred Townsend Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 11:28 AM To: EMC List Server Subject: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? Brooklyn Man's Sony Ericsson PDA Sets Off Maytag Magic Chef Broiler Every Time it Rings Nearby see http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/18/national/main5248949.shtml Fred Townsend DC to Light - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
I too have found that to be the case, namely that the analogue circuits play a greater role in EMC immunity than the digital . Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 11:48 AM To: Kunde, Brian; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? I have done quite a bit of digital equipment testing, and I have not often see a microprocessor being susceptible in the 10-20-30 V/m range. And yes cellphones above 1-2 Watts can easily generate 20-40 volts/m when emitting max power. What causes the problem in many cases is the analog circuitry associated with microprocessors: - scanned keyboards - supply voltage monitoring circuits - analog inputs (like temperature sensors) Where I would give the first category a big chance of having caused the problems. The problem is that digital designers do not uncommonly no nothing about: - current flowing through ground - current flowing in loops - other voltages then 1 and 0 - other signals then wanted signals Working at companies that: - do not think about their responsibilities unless penalized - focus on maximizing revenues and lowering costs - minimize on test costs judged superfluous (because we never had any problem , sounds familiar?) These companies are managed by managers that focus on: - Lowering the costs of education hardware - Maximizing their personal revenues - Minimizing their personnel revenues Digital designers are educated by schools that prefer: - Simulating electronics instead of experimenting - Simulating instead of soldering - Checking functional specifications only Which are managed by modern managers (ex bank?) that focus on: - Lowering the costs of education hardware - Maximizing their personal revenues - Minimizing their personnel revenues The lists above are in no way: - complete - objective - conclusive So don't judge the good old microprocessor and blame the managers ! ;)) Gert Gremmen Ce-test Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens Kunde, Brian Verzonden: maandag 24 augustus 2009 20:24 Aan: emc-p...@ieee.org Onderwerp: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? Can anyone confirm that a cell phone can generate 10V/m or more at any reasonable distance? [lets say 1 meter]. I didn't think the transmitter was that powerful. We played around with a cell phone and our isotropic probe and we couldn't get a reading over a few V/m unless we put the phone right up against the antenna cone. And then, the maximum we read was around 30V/m, but again, that was with the phone touching the antenna of the probe. Curious. The Other Brian From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John McAuley Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 12:11 PM To: 'John Woodgate'; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? It was me, I thought I was replying to all. John McAuley DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this e-mail may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: 24 August 2009 16:33 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? In message 9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0287f...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Price, Edward ed.pr...@cubic.com writes: OTOH, I would expect to see 5 to 10 V/M at two meters distance from a cell phone, so at a half-meter or less, I would be surprised to NOT see some interaction. And then, on yet another hand, proximity of cell phones should be expected for household systems. It was pointed out to me in a private email (why not to the list I don't know) that the relevant IEC/EN safety standard IEC 60335-1, applying to all household appliances, imposes in clause 19.11.4 'EMC for functional safety' requirements beyond those of CISPR 14-2, including an RF immunity test at 10 V/m (but you need to refer to yet another standard, IEC/EN 61000-4-3, to find the actual figure!). -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
this does not seem surprising, unless Brooklyn enforces immunity performance for home appliances. Now if he can only get it to control his TV, DVR and garage door opener. :) Best Regards, Patrick. p.con...@hp.com 281-514-2259 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Fred Townsend Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 1:28 PM To: EMC List Server Subject: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? Brooklyn Man's Sony Ericsson PDA Sets Off Maytag Magic Chef Broiler Every Time it Rings Nearby see http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/18/national/main5248949.shtml Fred Townsend DC to Light - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
That went to the dogs I meant cooker John Woodgate wrote: In message 4a92d5ff.2000...@aol.com, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com writes: It just so happens I have in the lab right now a high end cocker Pedigree spaniel? - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Curious Other Brian: I did a field survey about 10 years ago at various rapid transit stations, with my antennas set up 2 meters away from the electronic faregates. (Why 2 meters? That was close as I could get to the faregates without the customers being able to grab my antennas. Oh yes, they did try!) I found that the customer carried electronics was the worst EMI threat to our faregates. And interestingly, in all the bands, the customer electronics managed to generate about 5 to 10 V/M. I saw 27 MHz CB sets, ham 2-meter transceivers, 150 MHz public service radios (from the electricians and other service workers), 450 MHz police radios, 800 MHz cell phones and 1600 MHz phones too. Generally, the emitter power decreased as frequency rose, but antenna efficiency increased, so the field strength was surprisingly predictable. Of course, as John Woodgate points out, a cell phone could well be placed so close to a home appliance that field strength becomes wildly unpredictable. True, this data is 10 years old, but I don't see any reason for the results to not still be a good guide. Since I like 6 dB margins, I would propose a minimum of 20 V/M immunity level for any electronic gadget exposed to the general public. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kunde, Brian Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 11:24 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? Can anyone confirm that a cell phone can generate 10V/m or more at any reasonable distance? [lets say 1 meter]. I didn't think the transmitter was that powerful. We played around with a cell phone and our isotropic probe and we couldn't get a reading over a few V/m unless we put the phone right up against the antenna cone. And then, the maximum we read was around 30V/m, but again, that was with the phone touching the antenna of the probe. Curious. The Other Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
In message 4a92d5ff.2000...@aol.com, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Derek Walton lfresea...@aol.com writes: It just so happens I have in the lab right now a high end cocker Pedigree spaniel? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
In message FCA549BE3ECF9D4CB8CB8576837EA4890538BC@ZEUS.cetest.local, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl writes: These companies are managed by managers that focus on: - Lowering the costs of education hardware - Maximizing their personal revenues - Minimizing their personnel revenues And, being dedicated to 'top-down' management because they don't have the imagination to see any other way, still have EMC and safety imposed after design, instead of embedded in it. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
In message 0ed66cd2c9bd0a459d54fb9119a605670107c...@mailserver.lecotc.com, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com writes: Can anyone confirm that a cell phone can generate 10V/m or more at any reasonable distance? [lets say 1 meter]. I didn't think the transmitter was that powerful. I don't think you can assume 1 metre; 10 cm might be practicable, but then the field is so 'near' that any field strength measurement is subject to high uncertainty. I don't think it's possible to be certain about the choice of emission limits or immunity levels without field(!) tests, because of the number of uncontrollable variables [1] and the problems of measurements under near-field conditions. [1] The cell phone field strength at my house is rather too weak for reliability. So, I could use the quasi-hemispherical aluminium lid of my wok as a reflector to concentrate the field! -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
I have done quite a bit of digital equipment testing, and I have not often see a microprocessor being susceptible in the 10-20-30 V/m range. And yes cellphones above 1-2 Watts can easily generate 20-40 volts/m when emitting max power. What causes the problem in many cases is the analog circuitry associated with microprocessors: - scanned keyboards - supply voltage monitoring circuits - analog inputs (like temperature sensors) Where I would give the first category a big chance of having caused the problems. The problem is that digital designers do not uncommonly no nothing about: - current flowing through ground - current flowing in loops - other voltages then 1 and 0 - other signals then wanted signals Working at companies that: - do not think about their responsibilities unless penalized - focus on maximizing revenues and lowering costs - minimize on test costs judged superfluous (because we never had any problem , sounds familiar?) These companies are managed by managers that focus on: - Lowering the costs of education hardware - Maximizing their personal revenues - Minimizing their personnel revenues Digital designers are educated by schools that prefer: - Simulating electronics instead of experimenting - Simulating instead of soldering - Checking functional specifications only Which are managed by modern managers (ex bank?) that focus on: - Lowering the costs of education hardware - Maximizing their personal revenues - Minimizing their personnel revenues The lists above are in no way: - complete - objective - conclusive So don't judge the good old microprocessor and blame the managers ! ;)) Gert Gremmen Ce-test Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens Kunde, Brian Verzonden: maandag 24 augustus 2009 20:24 Aan: emc-p...@ieee.org Onderwerp: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? Can anyone confirm that a cell phone can generate 10V/m or more at any reasonable distance? [lets say 1 meter]. I didn't think the transmitter was that powerful. We played around with a cell phone and our isotropic probe and we couldn't get a reading over a few V/m unless we put the phone right up against the antenna cone. And then, the maximum we read was around 30V/m, but again, that was with the phone touching the antenna of the probe. Curious. The Other Brian From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John McAuley Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 12:11 PM To: 'John Woodgate'; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? It was me, I thought I was replying to all. John McAuley DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this e-mail may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: 24 August 2009 16:33 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? In message 9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0287f...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Price, Edward ed.pr...@cubic.com writes: OTOH, I would expect to see 5 to 10 V/M at two meters distance from a cell phone, so at a half-meter or less, I would be surprised to NOT see some interaction. And then, on yet another hand, proximity of cell phones should be expected for household systems. It was pointed out to me in a private email (why not to the list I don't know) that the relevant IEC/EN safety standard IEC 60335-1, applying to all household appliances, imposes in clause 19.11.4 'EMC for functional safety' requirements beyond those of CISPR 14-2, including an RF immunity test at 10 V/m (but you need to refer to yet another standard, IEC/EN 61000-4-3, to find the actual figure!). -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Can anyone confirm that a cell phone can generate 10V/m or more at any reasonable distance? [lets say 1 meter]. I didn't think the transmitter was that powerful. We played around with a cell phone and our isotropic probe and we couldn't get a reading over a few V/m unless we put the phone right up against the antenna cone. And then, the maximum we read was around 30V/m, but again, that was with the phone touching the antenna of the probe. Curious. The Other Brian From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John McAuley Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 12:11 PM To: 'John Woodgate'; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? It was me, I thought I was replying to all. John McAuley DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this e-mail may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: 24 August 2009 16:33 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? In message 9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0287f...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Price, Edward ed.pr...@cubic.com writes: OTOH, I would expect to see 5 to 10 V/M at two meters distance from a cell phone, so at a half-meter or less, I would be surprised to NOT see some interaction. And then, on yet another hand, proximity of cell phones should be expected for household systems. It was pointed out to me in a private email (why not to the list I don't know) that the relevant IEC/EN safety standard IEC 60335-1, applying to all household appliances, imposes in clause 19.11.4 'EMC for functional safety' requirements beyond those of CISPR 14-2, including an RF immunity test at 10 V/m (but you need to refer to yet another standard, IEC/EN 61000-4-3, to find the actual figure!). -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Hi All, I've not paid much attention to this so far because I was working... shame on me. It just so happens I have in the lab right now a high end cocker ( Range to the US folks ). This rascle has 2 microprocessors, to improve safely I'm told. It seems like the homework has been done, since it passed all tests at level 4. That was my clients request. The hardest thing we had was the clicks... Now when I saw the requirements ( cant remember which std ) it seamed like the EMC requirements were very low, BUT, there were additional safety requirements imposed separately. I wonder if the manufacturer only tested to the lowest requirements? Cheers, Derek. John Woodgate wrote: In message de87437fe365cb458c265ea3d73b6f1d04d84...@xbc-mail1.xantrex.com, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Ralph McDiarmid ralph.mcdiar...@xantrex.com writes: And why does a range, microwave oven or a toaster need a microprocessor in the first place? HERESY! (;-) - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Well yes, and the proliferation of the almighty micro has created many a firmware job. One more profession for industry to 'outsource' I suppose. Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 10:34 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? In message de87437fe365cb458c265ea3d73b6f1d04d84...@xbc-mail1.xantrex.com, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Ralph McDiarmid ralph.mcdiar...@xantrex.com writes: And why does a range, microwave oven or a toaster need a microprocessor in the first place? HERESY! (;-) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
In message de87437fe365cb458c265ea3d73b6f1d04d84...@xbc-mail1.xantrex.com, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Ralph McDiarmid ralph.mcdiar...@xantrex.com writes: And why does a range, microwave oven or a toaster need a microprocessor in the first place? HERESY! (;-) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
All the more reason not to use cell phones while driving your late model automobile now stuffed full of the all-important microprocessor and associated electronics. I can imagine all sorts of nasty interaction with anti-lock braking and cruise-control systems. And why does a range, microwave oven or a toaster need a microprocessor in the first place? Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc. From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 6:26 AM To: EMC List Server Subject: RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? I wonder if Andrei normally leaves his cell phone balanced between two of the cooktop burners? OTOH, I would expect to see 5 to 10 V/M at two meters distance from a cell phone, so at a half-meter or less, I would be surprised to NOT see some interaction. And then, on yet another hand, proximity of cell phones should be expected for household systems. If your system just happens to be a controller that regulates watering, flame cooking, microwave cooking, radiant heating, etc; you should verifying that immunity doesn't create a safety hazard. An appliance manufacturer shouldn't kid themselves that slapping a microprocessor into a gas oven doesn't create risk that isn't addressed by safety standards that were written for manual appliances. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Fred Townsend Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 11:28 AM To: EMC List Server Subject: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? Brooklyn Man's Sony Ericsson PDA Sets Off Maytag Magic Chef Broiler Every Time it Rings Nearby see http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/18/national/main5248949.shtml Fred Townsend DC to Light - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
It was me, I thought I was replying to all. John McAuley DISCLAIMER: The information contained in this e-mail may be confidential and is intended solely for the use of the named addressee. Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein by any other person is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by returning the e-mail to the originator From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: 24 August 2009 16:33 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? In message 9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0287f...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Price, Edward ed.pr...@cubic.com writes: OTOH, I would expect to see 5 to 10 V/M at two meters distance from a cell phone, so at a half-meter or less, I would be surprised to NOT see some interaction. And then, on yet another hand, proximity of cell phones should be expected for household systems. It was pointed out to me in a private email (why not to the list I don't know) that the relevant IEC/EN safety standard IEC 60335-1, applying to all household appliances, imposes in clause 19.11.4 'EMC for functional safety' requirements beyond those of CISPR 14-2, including an RF immunity test at 10 V/m (but you need to refer to yet another standard, IEC/EN 61000-4-3, to find the actual figure!). -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
In message 9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0287f...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub, dated Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Price, Edward ed.pr...@cubic.com writes: OTOH, I would expect to see 5 to 10 V/M at two meters distance from a cell phone, so at a half-meter or less, I would be surprised to NOT see some interaction. And then, on yet another hand, proximity of cell phones should be expected for household systems. It was pointed out to me in a private email (why not to the list I don't know) that the relevant IEC/EN safety standard IEC 60335-1, applying to all household appliances, imposes in clause 19.11.4 'EMC for functional safety' requirements beyond those of CISPR 14-2, including an RF immunity test at 10 V/m (but you need to refer to yet another standard, IEC/EN 61000-4-3, to find the actual figure!). -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
I wonder if Andrei normally leaves his cell phone balanced between two of the cooktop burners? OTOH, I would expect to see 5 to 10 V/M at two meters distance from a cell phone, so at a half-meter or less, I would be surprised to NOT see some interaction. And then, on yet another hand, proximity of cell phones should be expected for household systems. If your system just happens to be a controller that regulates watering, flame cooking, microwave cooking, radiant heating, etc; you should verifying that immunity doesn't create a safety hazard. An appliance manufacturer shouldn't kid themselves that slapping a microprocessor into a gas oven doesn't create risk that isn't addressed by safety standards that were written for manual appliances. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Fred Townsend Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 11:28 AM To: EMC List Server Subject: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? Brooklyn Man's Sony Ericsson PDA Sets Off Maytag Magic Chef Broiler Every Time it Rings Nearby see http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/18/national/main5248949.shtml Fred Townsend DC to Light - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
In message 4bea4e50d3d4344da9d84367ae317064078cf...@dcexvs02.tennant.tco.corp, dated Sun, 23 Aug 2009, Bender, Curtis curtis.ben...@tennantco.com writes: Skeptical I looked into it further and found a more recent post: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/nyregion/23about.html Seems legitimate although I am still a little skeptical - Back in the day I used to work for a company that designed such controls. It seems unreasonable but I'll certainly check with some of my old colleagues... I don't find it a great surprise. The cell phone responds to the incoming call by transmitting, and since it's indoors, it probably transmits at quite high power. The cooker control electronics simply isn't sufficiently immune to this at a distance of 60 cm or so. Are there in fact any immunity requirements for cookers in the cell phone bands in USA? In Europe, CISPR 14-2/EN 55014-2 applies: 3 V/m (before modulation) modulated 80% at 1 kHz, 80 MHz to 1 GHz. But the field strength from the phone might exceed that, in that environment and at that distance. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II?
Skeptical I looked into it further and found a more recent post: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/23/nyregion/23about.html Seems legitimate although I am still a little skeptical - Back in the day I used to work for a company that designed such controls. It seems unreasonable but I'll certainly check with some of my old colleagues... Curtis Bender opinions expressed are my own and not my company From: emc-p...@ieee.org on behalf of Fred Townsend Sent: Sun 8/23/2009 2:27 PM To: EMC List Server Subject: Ring Of Fire? Cell Phone Turns On Oven - Popcorn II? Brooklyn Man's Sony Ericsson PDA Sets Off Maytag Magic Chef Broiler Every Time it Rings Nearby see http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/18/national/main5248949.shtml Fred Townsend DC to Light - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
