Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

2019-05-26 Thread Richard Nute 
 

Hi Glyn:

 

There are two points of view for your dilemma.  One is compliance to the safety 
standard (your point of view).  The other is prevention of the spread of fire 
(my point of view).  

 

The requirements of the standard have not been tested.  The requirements are 
not tested until the standard is promulgated and products are submitted to a 
certification house.  Even then, many certification houses insist on strict 
compliance to the standard, especially under the CB scheme where another 
certification house gets to see and review the CB report.  

 

Strict compliance with the requirements (sometimes, and in this case) avoids 
testing.  So, we don’t know whether the requirements are effective in 
preventing spread of fire.  

 

In my opinion, the small connectors mounted in a metal enclosure are 
sufficiently heat-sunk to prevent spread of fire.  Yes, the standard requires 
severe and time-consuming conditioning of the connectors, but a test without 
conditioning will tell you whether the scheme will pass the conditioned test.  

 

Furthermore, since most or all materials within the enclosure are 
flame-retardant, its unlikely that a flame will touch the non-fame-retardant 
connectors.  Two faults, one, extended flaming within the enclosure, and two, 
all the connector material is consumed allowing the flame to escape the 
enclosure.  My point of view (which saves you and your company from undue 
control of the small connectors).

 

Best regards,

Richard

 

 

From: Payne, Glyn  
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2019 4:48 AM
To: ri...@ieee.org; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

Hi Richard,

 

Thanks for this. 

 

The reason we tend to use a metal enclosure where possible is for ruggedisation 
and to avoid any of the flame tests of S.1, which involve several samples plus 
7 days of heat conditioning before the test is applied. (Clause 6.4.8.2.1)

 

I am still not sure how to interpret the actual requirement. All internal 
flammable parts such as wiring and pcbs are V-0/V-1, as are all the XLRs and 
most couplers, it’s only one that’s HB rated. Regardless of its position 
relative to a PIS, if there was an internal fire it could still eventually 
spread to the coupler even with all other components being fairly flame 
resistant, allowing the fire enclosure to be compromised.

 

So my interpretation of the minimum requirement for components that ‘fill an 
opening in a fire enclosure’ based on clause 6.4.8.2.2 is that the coupler has 
to be V-1, regardless of its proximity to a PIS. 

 

Our test house is saying that HB is fine because it’s not near a PIS but I 
argue that it’s near combustible material so according to the standard it’s V-1!

 

I’m sure the interpretation will vary between different facilities and it’s 
still early days for application of 62368-1.

 

Best regards,

 

Glyn

 

From: Richard Nute mailto:ri...@ieee.org> >
Reply-To: mailto:ri...@ieee.org> >
Date: Wednesday, 22 May 2019 at 19:25
To: "'Payne, Glyn'" mailto:gl...@solidstatelogic.com> >, mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> >
Subject: RE: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

 

Hi Glyn:

 

You have the option of testing the bulkhead connectors in place (Annex S.1).  
Apply the test flame to the inside surface of the installed connector material 
at a point judged to be likely to become ignited because of its proximity to a 
source of ignition.  I suspect your product connectors are not in proximity to 
a source of ignition (PIS), in which case the test is not warranted.  

 

At least for the XLR connectors, the metal should provide enough heat-sinking 
that the material will pass.  Pass should be no opening in the fire enclosure, 
although a certification house may require the material to pass the S.1 
criteria regardless of the fire enclosure criteria.

 

Even though you prefer V-1 connector material, for the purposes of 
certification, I recommend you certify to the minimum requirement.  You can 
always use a “better” material as long as the certification report says 
“minimum.”  

 

Good luck, and best regards,

Rich

 

 

 

From: Payne, Glyn <0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org 
<mailto:0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> > 
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 5:48 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

HI Lori,

 

Your interpretation is the same as mine, though I haven’t found an IEC 
component standard that specifies the flammability rating of optical bulkhead 
connectors. There may not actually be one given that they carry no electrical 
power.

 

The one I currently use is HB rated but I do think it should be V-1 regardless 
of it’s proximity to a PIS.

 

Best regards,

 

Glyn

 

From: Lori Young < <mailto:lyo...@productsafetyinc.com> 
lyo...@productsafetyinc

Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

2019-05-23 Thread Payne, Glyn 
Hi Richard,

 

Thanks for this. 

 

The reason we tend to use a metal enclosure where possible is for ruggedisation 
and to avoid any of the flame tests of S.1, which involve several samples plus 
7 days of heat conditioning before the test is applied. (Clause 6.4.8.2.1)

 

I am still not sure how to interpret the actual requirement. All internal 
flammable parts such as wiring and pcbs are V-0/V-1, as are all the XLRs and 
most couplers, it’s only one that’s HB rated. Regardless of its position 
relative to a PIS, if there was an internal fire it could still eventually 
spread to the coupler even with all other components being fairly flame 
resistant, allowing the fire enclosure to be compromised.

 

So my interpretation of the minimum requirement for components that ‘fill an 
opening in a fire enclosure’ based on clause 6.4.8.2.2 is that the coupler has 
to be V-1, regardless of its proximity to a PIS. 

 

Our test house is saying that HB is fine because it’s not near a PIS but I 
argue that it’s near combustible material so according to the standard it’s V-1!

 

I’m sure the interpretation will vary between different facilities and it’s 
still early days for application of 62368-1.

 

Best regards,

 

Glyn

 

From: Richard Nute 
Reply-To: 
Date: Wednesday, 22 May 2019 at 19:25
To: "'Payne, Glyn'" , 
Subject: RE: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

 

Hi Glyn:

 

You have the option of testing the bulkhead connectors in place (Annex S.1).  
Apply the test flame to the inside surface of the installed connector material 
at a point judged to be likely to become ignited because of its proximity to a 
source of ignition.  I suspect your product connectors are not in proximity to 
a source of ignition (PIS), in which case the test is not warranted.  

 

At least for the XLR connectors, the metal should provide enough heat-sinking 
that the material will pass.  Pass should be no opening in the fire enclosure, 
although a certification house may require the material to pass the S.1 
criteria regardless of the fire enclosure criteria.

 

Even though you prefer V-1 connector material, for the purposes of 
certification, I recommend you certify to the minimum requirement.  You can 
always use a “better” material as long as the certification report says 
“minimum.”  

 

Good luck, and best regards,

Rich

 

 

 

From: Payne, Glyn <0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> 
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 5:48 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

HI Lori,

 

Your interpretation is the same as mine, though I haven’t found an IEC 
component standard that specifies the flammability rating of optical bulkhead 
connectors. There may not actually be one given that they carry no electrical 
power.

 

The one I currently use is HB rated but I do think it should be V-1 regardless 
of it’s proximity to a PIS.

 

Best regards,

 

Glyn

 

From: Lori Young 
Date: Friday, 17 May 2019 at 14:51
To: "Payne, Glyn" , "EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" 

Subject: RE: 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

Hi Glyn,

If I am understanding the sited clause correctly, the V-1 class material is 
needed for any material/component  that fills an opening in the enclosure.

Which means it is acting as part of the enclosure and therefor is required to 
meet the V-1 material OR the other requirements listed.

6.4.8.2.2 Requirements for a fire enclosure 

 

Material for components that fill an opening in a fire enclosure or that is 
intended to be 

mounted in such opening shall: 

 

-   comply with the flammability requirements of the relevant IEC component 
standard; or 

-   be made of V-1 class material; or 

-   with Clause S.1. 

 

 

Best Regards,

Lori 

Lori A.Young | Senior Compliance Consultant | Product Safety Consulting, Inc.

 

  

www.productsafetyinc.com 

Your Outsourced Compliance Department

 

Product Safety Consulting, Inc.

605 Country Club Drive, Suites I & J

Bensenville, IL  60106

Cell: 224-388-2050

Tel: 630-238-0188 

1-877-804-3066

lyo...@productsafetyinc.com

 

IEEE Member Chair/PSES Chicago Chapter

Keeping our members informed and educated on Product Safety and Compliance

 

https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/index.html

 

Although PSC maintains the highest level of virus protection, this e-mail and 
any attachments should be scanned by your virus protection software.  It is the 
responsibility of the recipient to check that it is virus free.  PSC does not 
accept any responsibility for data loss or systems damage arising in any way 
from its use.  This message is confidential and intended only for the 
individual to whom or entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the 
intended recipient or addressee, or an employee or agent responsible for 
delivering this message to the addressee, you are hereby notified that any 
dissemination, distribution, or copyi

Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

2019-05-22 Thread Richard Nute 
 

Hi Glyn:

 

You have the option of testing the bulkhead connectors in place (Annex S.1).  
Apply the test flame to the inside surface of the installed connector material 
at a point judged to be likely to become ignited because of its proximity to a 
source of ignition.  I suspect your product connectors are not in proximity to 
a source of ignition (PIS), in which case the test is not warranted.  

 

At least for the XLR connectors, the metal should provide enough heat-sinking 
that the material will pass.  Pass should be no opening in the fire enclosure, 
although a certification house may require the material to pass the S.1 
criteria regardless of the fire enclosure criteria.

 

Even though you prefer V-1 connector material, for the purposes of 
certification, I recommend you certify to the minimum requirement.  You can 
always use a “better” material as long as the certification report says 
“minimum.”  

 

Good luck, and best regards,

Rich

 

 

 

From: Payne, Glyn <0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> 
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 5:48 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

HI Lori,

 

Your interpretation is the same as mine, though I haven’t found an IEC 
component standard that specifies the flammability rating of optical bulkhead 
connectors. There may not actually be one given that they carry no electrical 
power.

 

The one I currently use is HB rated but I do think it should be V-1 regardless 
of it’s proximity to a PIS.

 

Best regards,

 

Glyn

 

From: Lori Young < <mailto:lyo...@productsafetyinc.com> 
lyo...@productsafetyinc.com>
Date: Friday, 17 May 2019 at 14:51
To: "Payne, Glyn" < <mailto:gl...@solidstatelogic.com> 
gl...@solidstatelogic.com>, " <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" < <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

Hi Glyn,

If I am understanding the sited clause correctly, the V-1 class material is 
needed for any material/component  that fills an opening in the enclosure.

Which means it is acting as part of the enclosure and therefor is required to 
meet the V-1 material OR the other requirements listed.

6.4.8.2.2 Requirements for a fire enclosure 

 

Material for components that fill an opening in a fire enclosure or that is 
intended to be 

mounted in such opening shall: 

 

*   comply with the flammability requirements of the relevant IEC component 
standard; or 
*   be made of V-1 class material; or 
*   with Clause S.1. 

 

 

Best Regards,

Lori 

Lori A.Young | Senior Compliance Consultant | Product Safety Consulting, Inc.

 

  

 <http://www.productsafetyinc.com/> www.productsafetyinc.com 

Your Outsourced Compliance Department

 

Product Safety Consulting, Inc.

605 Country Club Drive, Suites I & J

Bensenville, IL  60106

Cell: 224-388-2050

Tel: 630-238-0188 

1-877-804-3066

 <mailto:lyo...@productsafetyinc.com> lyo...@productsafetyinc.com

 

IEEE Member Chair/PSES Chicago Chapter

Keeping our members informed and educated on Product Safety and Compliance



 

 <https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/index.html> 
https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/index.html

 

Although PSC maintains the highest level of virus protection, this e-mail and 
any attachments should be scanned by your virus protection software.  It is the 
responsibility of the recipient to check that it is virus free.  PSC does not 
accept any responsibility for data loss or systems damage arising in any way 
from its use.  This message is confidential and intended only for the 
individual to whom or entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the 
intended recipient or addressee, or an employee or agent responsible for 
delivering this message to the addressee, you are hereby notified that any 
dissemination, distribution, or copying, in whole or part, of this message is 
strictly prohibited.  If you believe that you have been sent this message in 
error, please do not read it.  Please immediately reply to sender that you have 
received this message in error.  Then permanently delete all copies of the 
message. 

Thank you. 

 

 

From: Payne, Glyn < <mailto:0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> 
0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> 
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 8:40 AM
To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

Hi Experts,

 

I have a EN 62368-1 question regarding openings in a fire enclosure…

 

6.4.8.2.2 Requirements for a fire enclosure 

 

Material for components that fill an opening in a fire enclosure or that is 
intended to be 

mounted in such opening shall: 

 

*   comply with the flammability requirements of the relevant IEC component 
standard; or 
*   be made of V-1 class material; or 
*

Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

2019-05-20 Thread Payne, Glyn 
HI Lori,

 

Your interpretation is the same as mine, though I haven’t found an IEC 
component standard that specifies the flammability rating of optical bulkhead 
connectors. There may not actually be one given that they carry no electrical 
power.

 

The one I currently use is HB rated but I do think it should be V-1 regardless 
of it’s proximity to a PIS.

 

Best regards,

 

Glyn

 

From: Lori Young 
Date: Friday, 17 May 2019 at 14:51
To: "Payne, Glyn" , "EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" 

Subject: RE: 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

Hi Glyn,

If I am understanding the sited clause correctly, the V-1 class material is 
needed for any material/component  that fills an opening in the enclosure.

Which means it is acting as part of the enclosure and therefor is required to 
meet the V-1 material OR the other requirements listed.

6.4.8.2.2 Requirements for a fire enclosure 

 

Material for components that fill an opening in a fire enclosure or that is 
intended to be 

mounted in such opening shall: 

 

-   comply with the flammability requirements of the relevant IEC component 
standard; or 

-   be made of V-1 class material; or 

-   with Clause S.1. 

 

 

Best Regards,

Lori 

Lori A.Young | Senior Compliance Consultant | Product Safety Consulting, Inc.

 

  

www.productsafetyinc.com 

Your Outsourced Compliance Department

 

Product Safety Consulting, Inc.

605 Country Club Drive, Suites I & J

Bensenville, IL  60106

Cell: 224-388-2050

Tel: 630-238-0188 

1-877-804-3066

lyo...@productsafetyinc.com

 

IEEE Member Chair/PSES Chicago Chapter

Keeping our members informed and educated on Product Safety and Compliance

 

https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/index.html

 

Although PSC maintains the highest level of virus protection, this e-mail and 
any attachments should be scanned by your virus protection software.  It is the 
responsibility of the recipient to check that it is virus free.  PSC does not 
accept any responsibility for data loss or systems damage arising in any way 
from its use.  This message is confidential and intended only for the 
individual to whom or entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the 
intended recipient or addressee, or an employee or agent responsible for 
delivering this message to the addressee, you are hereby notified that any 
dissemination, distribution, or copying, in whole or part, of this message is 
strictly prohibited.  If you believe that you have been sent this message in 
error, please do not read it.  Please immediately reply to sender that you have 
received this message in error.  Then permanently delete all copies of the 
message. 

Thank you. 

 

 

From: Payne, Glyn <0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> 
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 8:40 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

Hi Experts,

 

I have a EN 62368-1 question regarding openings in a fire enclosure…

 

6.4.8.2.2 Requirements for a fire enclosure 

 

Material for components that fill an opening in a fire enclosure or that is 
intended to be 

mounted in such opening shall: 

 

-   comply with the flammability requirements of the relevant IEC component 
standard; or 

-   be made of V-1 class material; or 

-   with Clause S.1. 

 

 

For PS2 and PS3 circuits I have been told by a test house that connectors in 
fire enclosure openings only have to be V-1 class material if they are close to 
a potential ignition source (PIS).

 

My interpretation is that a fire enclosure is a fire enclosure, regardless of 
where, within a fire enclosure a fire may start and so anything filling an 
opening must be V-1.

 

I am interested to know how do other engineers interpret this clause.

 

 

Many thanks,

 

 

 

 

Glyn Payne

 

Compliance and Design Support Engineer

 

 

 
Solid State Logic UK Limited
Registered as a limited company in England and Wales (Company No:5362730) 
Registered Office: 25 Spring Hill Road, Begbroke, Oxford OX5 1RU, United Kingdom
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

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-- 
Solid State Logic UK LimitedRegistered as a limited company in England and 
Wales (Company No:5362730) Registered Office: 25 Spring Hill

Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

2019-05-20 Thread Payne, Glyn 
Thanks experts,

 

The ‘material’ in my case are bulkhead connectors, such as XLRs (audio) or 
Ethernet (signal not power) which have low power, or even optical fibre 
couplers carrying no electrical power. The XLRs and network connectors are UL 
VW-1 or VW-0 but optical connectors may be only 94 HB.

 

Pete, you may be right that the component standard could cover this, though I 
fail to see the logic if you wish to maintain a fire enclosure, and I haven’t 
been able to track down a IEC flammability spec for bulkhead optical connectors.

 

Best regards,

 

 

Glyn

 

From: Pete Perkins <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>
Reply-To: Pete Perkins 
Date: Saturday, 18 May 2019 at 05:27
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

And if these connectors, such as a power socket, meet the component 
requirements they are acceptable – whether or not the material is V-1.  

 

This would be a case where the component requirements override the product 
standard requirements.  (I wonder if the TC108 folks realize how often that can 
happen? And whether or not they would see it as a problem.)

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, Ore  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

p.perk...@ieee.org

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: Nyffenegger, Dave  
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 11:33 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

Bulkhead connectors protrude through fire enclosure openings both sides all the 
time.

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] 
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 2:24 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

I would agree with you if it said 'Material that fills an opening...', but it 
says 'Material for components that fill an opening...', which is just 
differently bad. It appears to apply only if there are more than one component 
in the opening, but all consist of only one material.  In that case, one can 
distinguish between the opening and the items that enter/exit through it.

But why would anyone put a component half-inside and half outside a fire 
enclosure?
Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
The UK is a sovereign state, not a Zollverein state
On 2019-05-17 18:58, Richard Nute wrote:

 

 

 

Hmm.  Interesting English usage statement.  

 

If something fills an opening, the opening no longer exists.  So, how do you 
know how to apply the requirement?

 

Rich

 

From: Payne, Glyn <0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> 
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 6:40 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

Hi Experts,

 

I have a EN 62368-1 question regarding openings in a fire enclosure…

 

6.4.8.2.2 Requirements for a fire enclosure 

 

Material for components that fill an opening in a fire enclosure or that is 
intended to be 

mounted in such opening shall: 

 

-   comply with the flammability requirements of the relevant IEC component 
standard; or 

-   be made of V-1 class material; or 

-   with Clause S.1. 

 

 

For PS2 and PS3 circuits I have been told by a test house that connectors in 
fire enclosure openings only have to be V-1 class material if they are close to 
a potential ignition source (PIS).

 

My interpretation is that a fire enclosure is a fire enclosure, regardless of 
where, within a fire enclosure a fire may start and so anything filling an 
opening must be V-1.

 

I am interested to know how do other engineers interpret this clause.

 

 

Many thanks,

 

 

 

 

Glyn Payne

 

Compliance and Design Support Engineer

 

 

 
Solid State Logic UK Limited
Registered as a limited company in England and Wales (Company No:5362730) 
Registered Office: 25 Spring Hill Road, Begbroke, Oxford OX5 1RU, United Kingdom
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell  

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher 
David Heald  

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Socie

Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

2019-05-17 Thread Pete Perkins 
And if these connectors, such as a power socket, meet the component 
requirements they are acceptable – whether or not the material is V-1.  

 

This would be a case where the component requirements override the product 
standard requirements.  (I wonder if the TC108 folks realize how often that can 
happen? And whether or not they would see it as a problem.)

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 1067

Albany, Ore  97321-0413

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

Entropy ain’t what it used to be

 

From: Nyffenegger, Dave  
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 11:33 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

Bulkhead connectors protrude through fire enclosure openings both sides all the 
time.

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] 
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 2:24 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

I would agree with you if it said 'Material that fills an opening...', but it 
says 'Material for components that fill an opening...', which is just 
differently bad. It appears to apply only if there are more than one component 
in the opening, but all consist of only one material.  In that case, one can 
distinguish between the opening and the items that enter/exit through it.

But why would anyone put a component half-inside and half outside a fire 
enclosure?

Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> 
Rayleigh, Essex UK
The UK is a sovereign state, not a Zollverein state

On 2019-05-17 18:58, Richard Nute wrote:

 

 

 

Hmm.  Interesting English usage statement.  

 

If something fills an opening, the opening no longer exists.  So, how do you 
know how to apply the requirement?

 

Rich

 

From: Payne, Glyn  <mailto:0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> 
<0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> 
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 6:40 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

Hi Experts,

 

I have a EN 62368-1 question regarding openings in a fire enclosure…

 

6.4.8.2.2 Requirements for a fire enclosure 

 

Material for components that fill an opening in a fire enclosure or that is 
intended to be 

mounted in such opening shall: 

 

*   comply with the flammability requirements of the relevant IEC component 
standard; or 
*   be made of V-1 class material; or 
*   with Clause S.1. 

 

 

For PS2 and PS3 circuits I have been told by a test house that connectors in 
fire enclosure openings only have to be V-1 class material if they are close to 
a potential ignition source (PIS).

 

My interpretation is that a fire enclosure is a fire enclosure, regardless of 
where, within a fire enclosure a fire may start and so anything filling an 
opening must be V-1.

 

I am interested to know how do other engineers interpret this clause.

 

 

Many thanks,

 

 

 

 

Glyn Payne

 

Compliance and Design Support Engineer

 

 

 

Solid State Logic UK Limited
Registered as a limited company in England and Wales (Company No:5362730) 
Registered Office: 25 Spring Hill Road, Begbroke, Oxford OX5 1RU, United Kingdom

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Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

2019-05-17 Thread Nyffenegger, Dave 
Bulkhead connectors protrude through fire enclosure openings both sides all the 
time.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 2:24 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure


I would agree with you if it said 'Material that fills an opening...', but it 
says 'Material for components that fill an opening...', which is just 
differently bad. It appears to apply only if there are more than one component 
in the opening, but all consist of only one material.  In that case, one can 
distinguish between the opening and the items that enter/exit through it.

But why would anyone put a component half-inside and half outside a fire 
enclosure?

Best wishes

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>

Rayleigh, Essex UK

The UK is a sovereign state, not a Zollverein state
On 2019-05-17 18:58, Richard Nute wrote:



Hmm.  Interesting English usage statement.

If something fills an opening, the opening no longer exists.  So, how do you 
know how to apply the requirement?

Rich

From: Payne, Glyn 
<0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org><mailto:0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 6:40 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

Hi Experts,

I have a EN 62368-1 question regarding openings in a fire enclosure…

6.4.8.2.2 Requirements for a fire enclosure

Material for components that fill an opening in a fire enclosure or that is 
intended to be
mounted in such opening shall:

-   comply with the flammability requirements of the relevant IEC component 
standard; or

-   be made of V-1 class material; or

-   with Clause S.1.





For PS2 and PS3 circuits I have been told by a test house that connectors in 
fire enclosure openings only have to be V-1 class material if they are close to 
a potential ignition source (PIS).



My interpretation is that a fire enclosure is a fire enclosure, regardless of 
where, within a fire enclosure a fire may start and so anything filling an 
opening must be V-1.



I am interested to know how do other engineers interpret this clause.





Many thanks,






Glyn Payne

Compliance and Design Support Engineer




Solid State Logic UK Limited

Registered as a limited company in England and Wales (Company No:5362730) 
Registered Office: 25 Spring Hill Road, Begbroke, Oxford OX5 1RU, United Kingdom
-


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Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

2019-05-17 Thread John Woodgate 

Noted. The products I deal with can't afford bulkhead connectors.

Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
The UK is a sovereign state, not a Zollverein state

On 2019-05-17 19:33, Nyffenegger, Dave wrote:


Bulkhead connectors protrude through fire enclosure openings both 
sides all the time.


*From:*John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
*Sent:* Friday, May 17, 2019 2:24 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

I would agree with you if it said 'Material that fills an opening...', 
but it says 'Material for components that fill an opening...', which 
is just differently bad. It appears to apply only if there are more 
than one component in the opening, but all consist of only one 
material.  In that case, one can distinguish between the opening and 
the items that enter/exit through it.


But why would anyone put a component half-inside and half outside a 
fire enclosure?


Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk  <http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK
The UK is a sovereign state, not a Zollverein state

On 2019-05-17 18:58, Richard Nute wrote:

Hmm. Interesting English usage statement.

If something fills an opening, the opening no longer exists. So,
how do you know how to apply the requirement?

Rich

*From:*Payne, Glyn <0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>
<mailto:0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>
*Sent:* Friday, May 17, 2019 6:40 AM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject:* [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

Hi Experts,

I have a EN 62368-1 question regarding openings in a fire enclosure…

*6.4.8.2.2 Requirements for a fire enclosure *

Material for components that fill an opening in a *fire enclosure
*or that is intended to be

mounted in such opening shall:

-comply with the flammability requirements of the relevant IEC
component standard; or

-be made of V-1 class material; or

-with Clause S.1.

For PS2 and PS3 circuits I have been told by a test house that
connectors in fire enclosure openings /only/ have to be V-1 class
material if they are close to a potential ignition source (PIS).

My interpretation is that a fire enclosure is a fire enclosure,
regardless of where, within a fire enclosure a fire may start and
so anything filling an opening must be V-1.

I am interested to know how do other engineers interpret this clause.

Many thanks,

Glyn Payne

Compliance and Design Support Engineer

Solid State Logic UK Limited

Registered as a limited company in England and Wales (Company No:5362730) 
Registered Office: 25 Spring Hill Road, Begbroke, Oxford OX5 1RU, United Kingdom

-


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<http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html>

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
<http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics
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Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

2019-05-17 Thread John Woodgate 
I would agree with you if it said 'Material that fills an opening...', 
but it says 'Material for components that fill an opening...', which is 
just differently bad. It appears to apply only if there are more than 
one component in the opening, but all consist of only one material.  In 
that case, one can distinguish between the opening and the items that 
enter/exit through it.


But why would anyone put a component half-inside and half outside a fire 
enclosure?


Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
The UK is a sovereign state, not a Zollverein state

On 2019-05-17 18:58, Richard Nute wrote:


Hmm. Interesting English usage statement.

If something fills an opening, the opening no longer exists. So, how 
do you know how to apply the requirement?


Rich

*From:*Payne, Glyn <0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>
*Sent:* Friday, May 17, 2019 6:40 AM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

Hi Experts,

I have a EN 62368-1 question regarding openings in a fire enclosure…

*6.4.8.2.2 Requirements for a fire enclosure *

Material for components that fill an opening in a *fire enclosure *or 
that is intended to be


mounted in such opening shall:

  * comply with the flammability requirements of the relevant IEC
component standard; or
  * be made of *V-1 class material*; or
  * with Clause S.1.

For PS2 and PS3 circuits I have been told by a test house that 
connectors in fire enclosure openings /only/ have to be V-1 class 
material if they are close to a potential ignition source (PIS).


My interpretation is that a fire enclosure is a fire enclosure, 
regardless of where, within a fire enclosure a fire may start and so 
anything filling an opening must be V-1.


I am interested to know how do other engineers interpret this clause.

Many thanks,

Glyn Payne

Compliance and Design Support Engineer

Solid State Logic UK Limited
Registered as a limited company in England and Wales (Company No:5362730) 
Registered Office: 25 Spring Hill Road, Begbroke, Oxford OX5 1RU, United Kingdom

-


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site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for 
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Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

2019-05-17 Thread Richard Nute 
 

 

 

Hmm.  Interesting English usage statement.  

 

If something fills an opening, the opening no longer exists.  So, how do you 
know how to apply the requirement?

 

Rich

 

From: Payne, Glyn <0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> 
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 6:40 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

 

Hi Experts,

 

I have a EN 62368-1 question regarding openings in a fire enclosure…

 

6.4.8.2.2 Requirements for a fire enclosure 

 

Material for components that fill an opening in a fire enclosure or that is 
intended to be 

mounted in such opening shall: 

 

*   comply with the flammability requirements of the relevant IEC component 
standard; or 
*   be made of V-1 class material; or 
*   with Clause S.1. 

 

 

For PS2 and PS3 circuits I have been told by a test house that connectors in 
fire enclosure openings only have to be V-1 class material if they are close to 
a potential ignition source (PIS).

 

My interpretation is that a fire enclosure is a fire enclosure, regardless of 
where, within a fire enclosure a fire may start and so anything filling an 
opening must be V-1.

 

I am interested to know how do other engineers interpret this clause.

 

 

Many thanks,

 

 

 

 

Glyn Payne

 

Compliance and Design Support Engineer

 

 

 

Solid State Logic UK Limited
Registered as a limited company in England and Wales (Company No:5362730) 
Registered Office: 25 Spring Hill Road, Begbroke, Oxford OX5 1RU, United Kingdom

-


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Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

2019-05-17 Thread Lori Young 
Hi Glyn,
If I am understanding the sited clause correctly, the V-1 class material is 
needed for any material/component  that fills an opening in the enclosure.
Which means it is acting as part of the enclosure and therefor is required to 
meet the V-1 material OR the other requirements listed.
6.4.8.2.2 Requirements for a fire enclosure

Material for components that fill an opening in a fire enclosure or that is 
intended to be
mounted in such opening shall:


  *   comply with the flammability requirements of the relevant IEC component 
standard; or
  *   be made of V-1 class material; or
  *   with Clause S.1.


Best Regards,
Lori
Lori A.Young | Senior Compliance Consultant | Product Safety Consulting, Inc.

[PSC LOGO FINAL Large]
www.productsafetyinc.com
Your Outsourced Compliance Department

Product Safety Consulting, Inc.
605 Country Club Drive, Suites I & J
Bensenville, IL  60106
Cell: 224-388-2050
Tel: 630-238-0188
1-877-804-3066
lyo...@productsafetyinc.com

IEEE Member Chair/PSES Chicago Chapter
Keeping our members informed and educated on Product Safety and Compliance
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From: Payne, Glyn <0d283c0acebb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 8:40 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

Hi Experts,

I have a EN 62368-1 question regarding openings in a fire enclosure…

6.4.8.2.2 Requirements for a fire enclosure

Material for components that fill an opening in a fire enclosure or that is 
intended to be
mounted in such opening shall:


  *   comply with the flammability requirements of the relevant IEC component 
standard; or
  *   be made of V-1 class material; or
  *   with Clause S.1.





For PS2 and PS3 circuits I have been told by a test house that connectors in 
fire enclosure openings only have to be V-1 class material if they are close to 
a potential ignition source (PIS).



My interpretation is that a fire enclosure is a fire enclosure, regardless of 
where, within a fire enclosure a fire may start and so anything filling an 
opening must be V-1.



I am interested to know how do other engineers interpret this clause.





Many thanks,






Glyn Payne

Compliance and Design Support Engineer




Solid State Logic UK Limited

Registered as a limited company in England and Wales (Company No:5362730) 
Registered Office: 25 Spring Hill Road, Begbroke, Oxford OX5 1RU, United Kingdom
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Website:  http://ww

Re: [PSES] 62368-1 Openings in a fire enclosure

2019-05-17 Thread John Woodgate 
I would not agree with the test house. If their interpretation was mean, 
the wording would be different.


Best wishes
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
The UK is a sovereign state, not a Zollverein state

On 2019-05-17 14:40, Payne, Glyn wrote:


Hi Experts,

I have a EN 62368-1 question regarding openings in a fire enclosure…

*6.4.8.2.2 Requirements for a fire enclosure *

Material for components that fill an opening in a *fire enclosure *or 
that is intended to be


mounted in such opening shall:

-comply with the flammability requirements of the relevant IEC 
component standard; or


-be made of *V-1 class material*; or

-with Clause S.1.

For PS2 and PS3 circuits I have been told by a test house that 
connectors in fire enclosure openings /only/ have to be V-1 class 
material if they are close to a potential ignition source (PIS).


My interpretation is that a fire enclosure is a fire enclosure, 
regardless of where, within a fire enclosure a fire may start and so 
anything filling an opening must be V-1.


I am interested to know how do other engineers interpret this clause.

Many thanks,

Glyn Payne

Compliance and Design Support Engineer


Solid State Logic UK Limited
Registered as a limited company in England and Wales (Company 
No:5362730) Registered Office: 25 Spring Hill Road, Begbroke, Oxford 
OX5 1RU, United Kingdom

-


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-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: