Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-17 Thread john Allen 
That said, I would think that very few properties have just a 32A breaker at 
the in-coming supply entry point (in fact I don't think that the normal 32A 
breaker has the "prospective current" breaking capacity to be permitted for it 
to be the main entry protective device). In most there will be a  "consumer 
unit"/panel with a larger 60A or 100A main breaker, which feeds a bank of 
smaller breakers: 32A for each ring main, 20A or 40A for large spurs for fixed 
heating equipment, and (mostly) 6A for each lighting circuit (which is not are 
ring main circuits).

Then (back to the original question!) each of the pluggable appliances will 
have fused plug, and any spurs and fixed small appliances, connected to a ring 
must have a fused-spur unit (using the same fuses as in the plugs, so 13A max).

Also, in modern installations, there is required to be a Residual Current 
Device ("RCD") breaker (or GFCI in N.American parlance) for covering all the 
ringmain circuits and another one for the lighting circuits (for very good 
reasons as I know from "experience"). However, older installations may only 
have one RCD on the power circuits and very old installations (even many early 
ringmain installations) won't have them at all unless they have been 
substantially updated over the years.

Note: the above comment about RCDs is the case in urban areas, but in remote 
areas of the country, with very long supply cables to properties, you may find 
Voltage-Operated breakers instead of RCDs to ensure that the internal "house 
metalwork" doesn't  rise above acceptable limits (due to leakage currents etc.) 
w.r.t. the surrounding earth/ground conditions. Don't know much about those or 
how they are installed and so I can't give any details.

John E Allen
W.London, UK

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 17 December 2016 08:37
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

Before breakers were mandatory, a 30 A fuse could be used instead.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M 
Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.


-Original Message-
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2016 5:39 AM
To: John Woodgate ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply


John,

Is the 32A breaker an IRE requirement and every household must comply 
regardless how old the house is?  On one occasion, some UK engineers told me 
that a small group of house in UK and EU still do not have such 32A breaker 
installed.  Thus the equipment complying with LVD Directive may not be safe in 
abnormal operation.

Scott

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 1:50 PM
To: Ralph McDiarmid ;
    EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
    Subject: RE: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

A 32 A breaker connects to a loop of 2.5 mm^2 3-core cable (line, neutral
and protective). A large number (there is a limit but it's complicated) of
13 A wall outlets can be connected to this ring, relying on diversity to
keep the total current below 32 A.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.


-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:34 PM
    To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

What's a "ring circuit" ?


Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
    Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:01 PM
    To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply


I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to protect the power cordage.  In
the U.K., outlets are supplied by a ring circuit rather than a branch
circuit, therefore the power cord could exceed its ampacity (a U.S.A. term).
So, if no power cord, no need for a fuse in the plug.
I wonder if the power supply has a fuse to protect the power supply.  If so,
would this count as the plug fuse?

Rich


From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 5:01 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit pro

Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-17 Thread John Woodgate 
Before breakers were mandatory, a 30 A fuse could be used instead.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.


-Original Message-
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2016 5:39 AM
To: John Woodgate ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply


John,

Is the 32A breaker an IRE requirement and every household must comply 
regardless how old the house is?  On one occasion, some UK engineers told me 
that a small group of house in UK and EU still do not have such 32A breaker 
installed.  Thus the equipment complying with LVD Directive may not be safe in 
abnormal operation.

Scott

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 1:50 PM
To: Ralph McDiarmid ;
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

A 32 A breaker connects to a loop of 2.5 mm^2 3-core cable (line, neutral
and protective). A large number (there is a limit but it's complicated) of
13 A wall outlets can be connected to this ring, relying on diversity to
keep the total current below 32 A.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.


-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:34 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

What's a "ring circuit" ?


Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
    Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply


I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to protect the power cordage.  In
the U.K., outlets are supplied by a ring circuit rather than a branch
circuit, therefore the power cord could exceed its ampacity (a U.S.A. term).
So, if no power cord, no need for a fuse in the plug.
I wonder if the power supply has a fuse to protect the power supply.  If so,
would this count as the plug fuse?

Rich


From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 5:01 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit product.
It has interchangeable pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but it
has no fuse. I think this is illegal and intend to notify Trading Standards,
as the overall product is marketed by a prominent European company and is
widely offered on the Internet.
Is there any exemption at all for the requirement that a BS 1363 plug in any
form must have a fuse?

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell
<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communitie

Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-16 Thread Scott Xe 
John,

Is the 32A breaker an IRE requirement and every household must comply 
regardless how old the house is?  On one occasion, some UK engineers told me 
that a small group of house in UK and EU still do not have such 32A breaker 
installed.  Thus the equipment complying with LVD Directive may not be safe in 
abnormal operation.

Scott

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 1:50 PM
To: Ralph McDiarmid ;
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

A 32 A breaker connects to a loop of 2.5 mm^2 3-core cable (line, neutral
and protective). A large number (there is a limit but it's complicated) of
13 A wall outlets can be connected to this ring, relying on diversity to
keep the total current below 32 A.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.


-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:34 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

What's a "ring circuit" ?


Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
    Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply


I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to protect the power cordage.  In
the U.K., outlets are supplied by a ring circuit rather than a branch
circuit, therefore the power cord could exceed its ampacity (a U.S.A. term).
So, if no power cord, no need for a fuse in the plug.
I wonder if the power supply has a fuse to protect the power supply.  If so,
would this count as the plug fuse?

Rich


From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 5:01 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit product.
It has interchangeable pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but it
has no fuse. I think this is illegal and intend to notify Trading Standards,
as the overall product is marketed by a prominent European company and is
widely offered on the Internet.
Is there any exemption at all for the requirement that a BS 1363 plug in any
form must have a fuse?

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell
<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>

__
This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
__
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell
<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, sen

Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-16 Thread john Allen 
Might not be wired - may be "thought controlled"!

 

From: Ed Price [mailto:edpr...@cox.net] 
Sent: 15 December 2016 22:51
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

I assume that the TARDIS wiring plan is more complicated than external
appearances suggest.

 

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA

 

-Original Message-
From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 12:20 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

Some wiring can get more complicated. J. R. R. Tolkien's  house had 9 rings
for the humans, 7 for the dwarves and 3 for the elves. I presume that there
was a fairly large circuit breaker for the one ring-main to rule them all. I
heard that the electrician kept muttering something about his "precious"
being missing when that main breaker tripped.

 

Ted Eckert

Microsoft

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my
employer or Sauron.

 

-Original Message-

From: John Allen [ <mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk>
mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]

Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:06 AM

To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

Ralph

 

Following on from John W's post, some larger properties will have more than

2 ring-mains, plus a number of dedicated branches/spurs/radials for larger
loads such as cookers, fixed water heaters and so on. In additional
branches/spurs/radials can be used for areas where the ring approach might
not be appropriate for physical reasons - such as adjacent sheds, garages
and so on - and these would be over-current limited to the cable ratings
because the diversity principle obviously cannot be applied.

 

Thus, normal domestic ring main circuits would be required in 2.5mm "twin
and earth" cable (another fairly unique UK concept where the grounding
conductor is reduced in size) and be protected by a 32A breaker, whereas
branch/spur/radial using the same cable must be protected by 16A breakers.

 

BTW: UK fuses and breakers generally follow the IEC standards approach and
are rated for continuous running at the stated rating, in contrast to the
N.American convention where the fuses/breakers are rated their blow-ratings

- thus a 16A UK/IEC breaker can be run at 16A continuous whereas a
N.American 15A breaker cannot be run continuously run at 15A.

 

John E Allen

W.London, UK.

 

 

-Original Message-

From: Ralph McDiarmid [ <mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>
mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]

Sent: 15 December 2016 18:30

To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

An interesting design philosophy which has benefits,  but it seems to rely
on pluggable appliances having an appropriate size fuse in their cordage.

 

You could for example wire an entire house with 3 or 4 of these circuits,
rather than a panel full of circuit breakers so common in N.Am

 

Ralph McDiarmid

Product Compliance

Engineering

Solar Business

Schneider Electric

 

 

 

 

*Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail



 

 

-Original Message-

From: John Woodgate [ <mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com>
mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]

Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 1:50 PM

To: Ralph McDiarmid < <mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>
ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>;

 <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: RE: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

A 32 A breaker connects to a loop of 2.5 mm^2 3-core cable (line, neutral
and protective). A large number (there is a limit but it's complicated) of

13 A wall outlets can be connected to this ring, relying on diversity to
keep the total current below 32 A.

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
<http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England

 

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

 

 

-Original Message-

From: Ralph McDiarmid [ <mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>
mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]

Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:34 PM

To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

What's a "ring circuit" ?

 

 

Ralph McDiarmid

Product Compliance

Engineering

Solar Business

Schneider Electric

 

 

 

 

From: Richard Nute [ <mailto:ri...@ieee.org> mailto:ri...@ieee.org]

Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:01 PM

To:  <m

Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-15 Thread Ed Price 
I assume that the TARDIS wiring plan is more complicated than external
appearances suggest.

 

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA

 

-Original Message-
From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 12:20 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

Some wiring can get more complicated. J. R. R. Tolkien's  house had 9 rings
for the humans, 7 for the dwarves and 3 for the elves. I presume that there
was a fairly large circuit breaker for the one ring-main to rule them all. I
heard that the electrician kept muttering something about his "precious"
being missing when that main breaker tripped.

 

Ted Eckert

Microsoft

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my
employer or Sauron.

 

-Original Message-

From: John Allen [ <mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk>
mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]

Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:06 AM

To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

Ralph

 

Following on from John W's post, some larger properties will have more than

2 ring-mains, plus a number of dedicated branches/spurs/radials for larger
loads such as cookers, fixed water heaters and so on. In additional
branches/spurs/radials can be used for areas where the ring approach might
not be appropriate for physical reasons - such as adjacent sheds, garages
and so on - and these would be over-current limited to the cable ratings
because the diversity principle obviously cannot be applied.

 

Thus, normal domestic ring main circuits would be required in 2.5mm "twin
and earth" cable (another fairly unique UK concept where the grounding
conductor is reduced in size) and be protected by a 32A breaker, whereas
branch/spur/radial using the same cable must be protected by 16A breakers.

 

BTW: UK fuses and breakers generally follow the IEC standards approach and
are rated for continuous running at the stated rating, in contrast to the
N.American convention where the fuses/breakers are rated their blow-ratings

- thus a 16A UK/IEC breaker can be run at 16A continuous whereas a
N.American 15A breaker cannot be run continuously run at 15A.

 

John E Allen

W.London, UK.

 

 

-Original Message-

From: Ralph McDiarmid [ <mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>
mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]

Sent: 15 December 2016 18:30

To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

An interesting design philosophy which has benefits,  but it seems to rely
on pluggable appliances having an appropriate size fuse in their cordage.

 

You could for example wire an entire house with 3 or 4 of these circuits,
rather than a panel full of circuit breakers so common in N.Am

 

Ralph McDiarmid

Product Compliance

Engineering

Solar Business

Schneider Electric

 

 

 

 

*Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail



 

 

-Original Message-

From: John Woodgate [ <mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com>
mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]

Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 1:50 PM

To: Ralph McDiarmid < <mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>
ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>;

 <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: RE: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

A 32 A breaker connects to a loop of 2.5 mm^2 3-core cable (line, neutral
and protective). A large number (there is a limit but it's complicated) of

13 A wall outlets can be connected to this ring, relying on diversity to
keep the total current below 32 A.

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
<http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England

 

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

 

 

-Original Message-

From: Ralph McDiarmid [ <mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>
mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]

Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:34 PM

To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

What's a "ring circuit" ?

 

 

Ralph McDiarmid

Product Compliance

Engineering

Solar Business

Schneider Electric

 

 

 

 

From: Richard Nute [ <mailto:ri...@ieee.org> mailto:ri...@ieee.org]

Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:01 PM

To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

 

I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to protect the power cordage.  In
the U.K., outlets are

Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-15 Thread Ted Eckert 
Some wiring can get more complicated. J. R. R. Tolkien's  house had 9 rings for 
the humans, 7 for the dwarves and 3 for the elves. I presume that there was a 
fairly large circuit breaker for the one ring-main to rule them all. I heard 
that the electrician kept muttering something about his "precious" being 
missing when that main breaker tripped.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer or Sauron.

-Original Message-
From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:06 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

Ralph

Following on from John W's post, some larger properties will have more than
2 ring-mains, plus a number of dedicated branches/spurs/radials for larger 
loads such as cookers, fixed water heaters and so on. In additional 
branches/spurs/radials can be used for areas where the ring approach might not 
be appropriate for physical reasons - such as adjacent sheds, garages and so on 
- and these would be over-current limited to the cable ratings because the 
diversity principle obviously cannot be applied.

Thus, normal domestic ring main circuits would be required in 2.5mm "twin and 
earth" cable (another fairly unique UK concept where the grounding conductor is 
reduced in size) and be protected by a 32A breaker, whereas branch/spur/radial 
using the same cable must be protected by 16A breakers.

BTW: UK fuses and breakers generally follow the IEC standards approach and are 
rated for continuous running at the stated rating, in contrast to the 
N.American convention where the fuses/breakers are rated their blow-ratings
- thus a 16A UK/IEC breaker can be run at 16A continuous whereas a N.American 
15A breaker cannot be run continuously run at 15A.

John E Allen
W.London, UK.


-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: 15 December 2016 18:30
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

An interesting design philosophy which has benefits,  but it seems to rely on 
pluggable appliances having an appropriate size fuse in their cordage.

You could for example wire an entire house with 3 or 4 of these circuits, 
rather than a panel full of circuit breakers so common in N.Am

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




*Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
    


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 1:50 PM
To: Ralph McDiarmid ;
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

A 32 A breaker connects to a loop of 2.5 mm^2 3-core cable (line, neutral and 
protective). A large number (there is a limit but it's complicated) of
13 A wall outlets can be connected to this ring, relying on diversity to keep 
the total current below 32 A.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M 
Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.


-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:34 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

What's a "ring circuit" ?


Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply


I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to protect the power cordage.  In 
the U.K., outlets are supplied by a ring circuit rather than a branch circuit, 
therefore the power cord could exceed its ampacity (a U.S.A. term).
So, if no power cord, no need for a fuse in the plug.
I wonder if the power supply has a fuse to protect the power supply.  If so, 
would this count as the plug fuse?

Rich


From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 5:01 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit product.
It has interchangeable pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but it has 
no fuse. I think this is illegal and intend to notify Trading Standards, as the 
overall product is marketed by a prominent European company and is widely 
offered on the Internet.
Is there any exemption at all for the requirement that a BS 1363 plug in any 
form must have a fuse?

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engi

Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-15 Thread john Allen 
Oh, you "naughty boy"J.

 

But you are "forgiven" (at least on THIS side of the "Pond"!) - "Britain
rules the Wires" (if not the Waves, anymore L)!

 

John E Allen

W. London, UK

 

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: 15 December 2016 19:08
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

Ahem, please forgive me NFPA, for I have sinned...

 

Wired the 120V service to my shop building in ring topology. Single 240V/40A
breaker to the ring where enters building, and each 20A outlet has a 12A 'T'
hi-break line fuse. The only hi-X load is small drill press, so no motor
issues.

 

The 240V building wiring is 'traditional', and was done by a boring and
competent electrician.

 

Have also seen ring wiring in Ireland, which was probably one of Cromwell's
programs

 

Brian

 

-Original Message-

From: Ralph McDiarmid [ <mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>
mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]

Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 10:30 AM

To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

An interesting design philosophy which has benefits,  but it seems to rely
on pluggable appliances having an appropriate size fuse in their cordage.

 

You could for example wire an entire house with 3 or 4 of these circuits,
rather than a panel full of circuit breakers so common in N.Am

 

Ralph McDiarmid

Product Compliance

Engineering

Solar Business

Schneider Electric

 

 

 

 

*Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail



 

 

-Original Message-

From: John Woodgate [ <mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com>
mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]

Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 1:50 PM

To: Ralph McDiarmid < <mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>
ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>;
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: RE: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

A 32 A breaker connects to a loop of 2.5 mm^2 3-core cable (line, neutral
and protective). A large number (there is a limit but it's complicated) of

13 A wall outlets can be connected to this ring, relying on diversity to
keep the total current below 32 A.

 

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
<http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England

 

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

 

 

-Original Message-

From: Ralph McDiarmid [ <mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>
mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]

Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:34 PM

To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

What's a "ring circuit" ?

 

 

Ralph McDiarmid

Product Compliance

Engineering

Solar Business

Schneider Electric

 

 

 

 

From: Richard Nute [ <mailto:ri...@ieee.org> mailto:ri...@ieee.org]

Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:01 PM

To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

 

I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to protect the power cordage.  In
the U.K., outlets are supplied by a ring circuit rather than a branch
circuit, therefore the power cord could exceed its ampacity (a U.S.A. term).

So, if no power cord, no need for a fuse in the plug.

I wonder if the power supply has a fuse to protect the power supply.  If so,
would this count as the plug fuse?

 

Rich

 

 

From: John Woodgate [ <mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com>
mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]

Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 5:01 AM

To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit product.

It has interchangeable pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but it
has no fuse. I think this is illegal and intend to notify Trading Standards,
as the overall product is marketed by a prominent European company and is
widely offered on the Internet.

Is there any exemption at all for the requirement that a BS 1363 plug in any
form must have a fuse?

 

-



This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> emc-p...@ieee.org>

 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:

 <http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html>
http://www.ieee

Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-15 Thread Brian O'Connell 
Ahem, please forgive me NFPA, for I have sinned...

Wired the 120V service to my shop building in ring topology. Single 240V/40A 
breaker to the ring where enters building, and each 20A outlet has a 12A 'T' 
hi-break line fuse. The only hi-X load is small drill press, so no motor issues.

The 240V building wiring is 'traditional', and was done by a boring and 
competent electrician.

Have also seen ring wiring in Ireland, which was probably one of Cromwell's 
programs

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] 
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 10:30 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

An interesting design philosophy which has benefits,  but it seems to rely on 
pluggable appliances having an appropriate size fuse in their cordage.

You could for example wire an entire house with 3 or 4 of these circuits, 
rather than a panel full of circuit breakers so common in N.Am

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




*Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
    


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 1:50 PM
To: Ralph McDiarmid ; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

A 32 A breaker connects to a loop of 2.5 mm^2 3-core cable (line, neutral and 
protective). A large number (there is a limit but it's complicated) of
13 A wall outlets can be connected to this ring, relying on diversity to keep 
the total current below 32 A.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M 
Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.


-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:34 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

What's a "ring circuit" ?


Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply


I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to protect the power cordage.  In 
the U.K., outlets are supplied by a ring circuit rather than a branch circuit, 
therefore the power cord could exceed its ampacity (a U.S.A. term).
So, if no power cord, no need for a fuse in the plug.
I wonder if the power supply has a fuse to protect the power supply.  If so, 
would this count as the plug fuse?

Rich


From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 5:01 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit product.
It has interchangeable pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but it has 
no fuse. I think this is illegal and intend to notify Trading Standards, as the 
overall product is marketed by a prominent European company and is widely 
offered on the Internet.
Is there any exemption at all for the requirement that a BS 1363 plug in any 
form must have a fuse?

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald:

Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-15 Thread John Allen 
Ralph

Following on from John W's post, some larger properties will have more than
2 ring-mains, plus a number of dedicated branches/spurs/radials for larger
loads such as cookers, fixed water heaters and so on. In additional
branches/spurs/radials can be used for areas where the ring approach might
not be appropriate for physical reasons - such as adjacent sheds, garages
and so on - and these would be over-current limited to the cable ratings
because the diversity principle obviously cannot be applied.

Thus, normal domestic ring main circuits would be required in 2.5mm "twin
and earth" cable (another fairly unique UK concept where the grounding
conductor is reduced in size) and be protected by a 32A breaker, whereas
branch/spur/radial using the same cable must be protected by 16A breakers.

BTW: UK fuses and breakers generally follow the IEC standards approach and
are rated for continuous running at the stated rating, in contrast to the
N.American convention where the fuses/breakers are rated their blow-ratings
- thus a 16A UK/IEC breaker can be run at 16A continuous whereas a
N.American 15A breaker cannot be run continuously run at 15A.

John E Allen
W.London, UK.


-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] 
Sent: 15 December 2016 18:30
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

An interesting design philosophy which has benefits,  but it seems to rely
on pluggable appliances having an appropriate size fuse in their cordage.

You could for example wire an entire house with 3 or 4 of these circuits,
rather than a panel full of circuit breakers so common in N.Am

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




*Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
    


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 1:50 PM
To: Ralph McDiarmid ;
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

A 32 A breaker connects to a loop of 2.5 mm^2 3-core cable (line, neutral
and protective). A large number (there is a limit but it's complicated) of
13 A wall outlets can be connected to this ring, relying on diversity to
keep the total current below 32 A.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.


-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:34 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

What's a "ring circuit" ?


Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply


I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to protect the power cordage.  In
the U.K., outlets are supplied by a ring circuit rather than a branch
circuit, therefore the power cord could exceed its ampacity (a U.S.A. term).
So, if no power cord, no need for a fuse in the plug.
I wonder if the power supply has a fuse to protect the power supply.  If so,
would this count as the plug fuse?

Rich


From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 5:01 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit product.
It has interchangeable pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but it
has no fuse. I think this is illegal and intend to notify Trading Standards,
as the overall product is marketed by a prominent European company and is
widely offered on the Internet.
Is there any exemption at all for the requirement that a BS 1363 plug in any
form must have a fuse?

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell
<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bach

Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-15 Thread John Woodgate 
Yes, that's exactly how it works. A small house would have two rings. Fused
plugs rated at 3 A, 5 A and 13 A are sold, and you can get 1 A fuses as
well.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] 
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 6:30 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

An interesting design philosophy which has benefits,  but it seems to rely
on pluggable appliances having an appropriate size fuse in their cordage.

You could for example wire an entire house with 3 or 4 of these circuits,
rather than a panel full of circuit breakers so common in N.Am

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




*Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
    


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 1:50 PM
To: Ralph McDiarmid ;
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

A 32 A breaker connects to a loop of 2.5 mm^2 3-core cable (line, neutral
and protective). A large number (there is a limit but it's complicated) of
13 A wall outlets can be connected to this ring, relying on diversity to
keep the total current below 32 A.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.


-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:34 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

What's a "ring circuit" ?


Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply


I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to protect the power cordage.  In
the U.K., outlets are supplied by a ring circuit rather than a branch
circuit, therefore the power cord could exceed its ampacity (a U.S.A. term).
So, if no power cord, no need for a fuse in the plug.
I wonder if the power supply has a fuse to protect the power supply.  If so,
would this count as the plug fuse?

Rich


From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 5:01 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit product.
It has interchangeable pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but it
has no fuse. I think this is illegal and intend to notify Trading Standards,
as the overall product is marketed by a prominent European company and is
widely offered on the Internet.
Is there any exemption at all for the requirement that a BS 1363 plug in any
form must have a fuse?

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell
<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>

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This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www

Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-15 Thread Ralph McDiarmid 
An interesting design philosophy which has benefits,  but it seems to rely on 
pluggable appliances having an appropriate size fuse in their cordage.

You could for example wire an entire house with 3 or 4 of these circuits, 
rather than a panel full of circuit breakers so common in N.Am

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




*Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
    


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 1:50 PM
To: Ralph McDiarmid ; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

A 32 A breaker connects to a loop of 2.5 mm^2 3-core cable (line, neutral and 
protective). A large number (there is a limit but it's complicated) of
13 A wall outlets can be connected to this ring, relying on diversity to keep 
the total current below 32 A.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M 
Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.


-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:34 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

What's a "ring circuit" ?


Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply


I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to protect the power cordage.  In 
the U.K., outlets are supplied by a ring circuit rather than a branch circuit, 
therefore the power cord could exceed its ampacity (a U.S.A. term).
So, if no power cord, no need for a fuse in the plug.
I wonder if the power supply has a fuse to protect the power supply.  If so, 
would this count as the plug fuse?

Rich


From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 5:01 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit product.
It has interchangeable pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but it has 
no fuse. I think this is illegal and intend to notify Trading Standards, as the 
overall product is marketed by a prominent European company and is widely 
offered on the Internet.
Is there any exemption at all for the requirement that a BS 1363 plug in any 
form must have a fuse?

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on 
the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell 
<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>

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This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-12 Thread John Woodgate 
A 32 A breaker connects to a loop of 2.5 mm^2 3-core cable (line, neutral
and protective). A large number (there is a limit but it's complicated) of
13 A wall outlets can be connected to this ring, relying on diversity to
keep the total current below 32 A.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.


-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 7:34 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

What's a "ring circuit" ?


Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply


I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to protect the power cordage.  In
the U.K., outlets are supplied by a ring circuit rather than a branch
circuit, therefore the power cord could exceed its ampacity (a U.S.A. term).
So, if no power cord, no need for a fuse in the plug.
I wonder if the power supply has a fuse to protect the power supply.  If so,
would this count as the plug fuse?

Rich


From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 5:01 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit product.
It has interchangeable pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but it
has no fuse. I think this is illegal and intend to notify Trading Standards,
as the overall product is marketed by a prominent European company and is
widely offered on the Internet.
Is there any exemption at all for the requirement that a BS 1363 plug in any
form must have a fuse?

-

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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-12 Thread john Allen 
Ralf

That's (almost!) a perculiarly British "invention" (but also found in
several ex-UK colonies/heavily-influenced countries)  after" WWII to allow a
larger number of sockets to be connected to a fuse (then/CB now) than can be
accommodated on a branch/spur/radial circuit. This is done by running a
single cable from the fuse to the 1st skt, then the 2nd and so on to the
nth, and then back to the fuse again in order to save on the use of valuable
copper-cored cables! It takes into account that not all skts will be fully
loaded at any one time, and so the net max current is always shared between
the two cables running to any one skt, under a principle called "diversity".

Might seem "unbelievable" to anyone accustomed only to branch/spur/radial
circuits but it does (and has for last 60+  years) work because that is how
almost all UK domestic (and probably some other) buildings are wired - IF
they are installed correctly in accordance with the UK IET Wiring Regs or
the national equivalent.

John E Allen
W. London, UK

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] 
Sent: 12 December 2016 19:34
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

What's a "ring circuit" ?


Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply


I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to protect the power cordage.  In
the U.K., outlets are supplied by a ring circuit rather than a branch
circuit, therefore the power cord could exceed its ampacity (a U.S.A. term).
So, if no power cord, no need for a fuse in the plug.
I wonder if the power supply has a fuse to protect the power supply.  If so,
would this count as the plug fuse?

Rich


From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 5:01 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit product.
It has interchangeable pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but it
has no fuse. I think this is illegal and intend to notify Trading Standards,
as the overall product is marketed by a prominent European company and is
widely offered on the Internet.
Is there any exemption at all for the requirement that a BS 1363 plug in any
form must have a fuse?

-

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineeri

Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-12 Thread Richard Nute 
In the U.K., outlets are fed from a ring rather
than a branch.  Think of a branch circuit; at the
end of the branch, connect the wires back to the
breaker box.  Thus, each outlet has two sources of
current from the breaker.  Or, think of a ring
from the breaker, with outlets along the ring.

I would guess that our U.K. colleagues would have
a better description.

Best wishes for the holiday season,
Rich  

> -Original Message-
> From: Ralph McDiarmid
> [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 11:34 AM
> To: ri...@ieee.org; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: RE: [PSES] British question, about a
BS1363
> plug-in power supply
> 
> What's a "ring circuit" ?
> 
> 
> Ralph McDiarmid
> Product Compliance
> Engineering
> Solar Business
> Schneider Electric
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
> Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:01 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a
BS1363
> plug-in power supply
> 
> 
> I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to
protect the
> power cordage.  In the U.K., outlets are
supplied by a ring
> circuit rather than a branch circuit, therefore
the power
> cord could exceed its ampacity (a U.S.A. term).
So, if no
> power cord, no need for a fuse in the plug.
> I wonder if the power supply has a fuse to
protect the
> power supply.  If so, would this count as the
plug fuse?
> 
> Rich
> 
> 

-

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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-12 Thread Ralph McDiarmid 
What's a "ring circuit" ?


Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric




From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 12:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply


I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to protect the power cordage.  In 
the U.K., outlets are supplied by a ring circuit rather than a branch circuit, 
therefore the power cord could exceed its ampacity (a U.S.A. term).  So, if no 
power cord, no need for a fuse in the plug.
I wonder if the power supply has a fuse to protect the power supply.  If so, 
would this count as the plug fuse?

Rich


From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 5:01 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit product. It 
has interchangeable pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but it has no 
fuse. I think this is illegal and intend to notify Trading Standards, as the 
overall product is marketed by a prominent European company and is widely 
offered on the Internet.
Is there any exemption at all for the requirement that a BS 1363 plug in any 
form must have a fuse?

-

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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-05 Thread Ted Eckert 
I can confirm Mr. Larkin’s and Mr. Woodgate’s statements.

The UK and Ireland have a national difference for IEC 60950-1 reads as follows.

2.7.1: In the United Kingdom, to protect against excessive currents and 
short-circuits in the PRIMARY CIRCUIT of DIRECT PLUG-IN EQUIPMENT, tests 
according to 5.3 shall be conducted, using an external protective device rated 
30 A or 32 A. If these tests fail, suitable protective devices shall be 
included as integral parts of the DIRECT PLUG-IN EQUIPMENT, so that the 
requirements of 5.3 are met.

Here is the corresponding national difference for IEC 62368-1.

B.3.1 and B.4: To protect against excessive currents and short-circuits in the 
primary circuit of direct plug-in equipment, tests according to Annexes B.3.1 
and B.4 shall be conducted using an external miniature circuit breaker 
complying with EN 60898-1, Type B, rated 32A.  If the equipment does not pass 
these tests, suitable protective devices shall be included as an integral part 
of the direct plug-in equipment, until the requirements of Annexes B.3.1 and 
B.4 are met.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 5:58 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

It's in 62389-1 as well.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> J M Woodgate and Associates 
Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Matthew Larkin [mailto:m.lar...@samsung.com]
Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 1:48 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

I believe there is a UK Special National Condition in EN60950-1 that states 
fault tests shall be conducted with an external 30A or 32A protection device 
and if the Direct Plug In Equipment fails the requirements of fault tests a 
protection device shall be fitted as an integral part of the Direct Plug In 
Equipment.

Best Regards

Matthew

Matthew Larkin
Samsung Electronics (UK) Ltd


From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: 04 December 2016 19:17
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply


Do you have any recommendation of reference book about UK system requiring the 
use of fuse protection?

My recollection is the U.K. Wiring Regulations.

Best wishes for the holiday season,
Rich

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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-05 Thread John Allen 
Scott

 

With great respect to Rich , that’s will tell you an awful lot about the UK 
building wiring system – provided you have the patience to study it in detail, 
but I rather doubt it will tell you much about the PSU issue because the IEE 
Regs (BS 7671 BTW) because it based on the IEC 60364 series and it does not 
discuss the design, construction and testing of portable equipment as that is 
left down to product standards such as those which have been mentioned.

 

John E Allen

W.London, UK

 

From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 05 December 2016 16:28
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

Hi Rich,

 

Thanks for sharing!  I will get the regulation to study.

 

Regards,

 

Scott

 

 

 

 

From: Richard Nute 
Reply-To: 
Date: Monday, 5 December 2016 at 3:17 AM
To: 'Scott Xe' , 
Subject: RE: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

 

Do you have any recommendation of reference book about UK system requiring the 
use of fuse protection?

 

My recollection is the U.K. Wiring Regulations.  

 

Best wishes for the holiday season,

Rich

 

-


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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-05 Thread Scott Xe 
Hi Rich,

 

Thanks for sharing!  I will get the regulation to study.

 

Regards,

 

Scott

 

 

 

 

From: Richard Nute 
Reply-To: 
Date: Monday, 5 December 2016 at 3:17 AM
To: 'Scott Xe' , 
Subject: RE: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

 

Do you have any recommendation of reference book about UK system requiring the 
use of fuse protection?

 

My recollection is the U.K. Wiring Regulations.  

 

Best wishes for the holiday season,

Rich

 


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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-05 Thread John Woodgate 
It's in 62389-1 as well.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
 <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and 
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Matthew Larkin [mailto:m.lar...@samsung.com] 
Sent: Monday, December 5, 2016 1:48 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply
 
I believe there is a UK Special National Condition in EN60950-1 that states 
fault tests shall be conducted with an external 30A or 32A protection device 
and if the Direct Plug In Equipment fails the requirements of fault tests a 
protection device shall be fitted as an integral part of the Direct Plug In 
Equipment.
 
Best Regards
 
Matthew
 
Matthew Larkin
Samsung Electronics (UK) Ltd
 
 
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: 04 December 2016 19:17
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply
 
 
Do you have any recommendation of reference book about UK system requiring the 
use of fuse protection?
 
My recollection is the U.K. Wiring Regulations.  
 
Best wishes for the holiday season,
Rich
 
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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-05 Thread Matthew Larkin 
I believe there is a UK Special National Condition in EN60950-1 that states 
fault tests shall be conducted with an external 30A or 32A protection device 
and if the Direct Plug In Equipment fails the requirements of fault tests a 
protection device shall be fitted as an integral part of the Direct Plug In 
Equipment.

 

Best Regards

 

Matthew

 

Matthew Larkin

Samsung Electronics (UK) Ltd

 

 

From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: 04 December 2016 19:17
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

 

Do you have any recommendation of reference book about UK system requiring the 
use of fuse protection?

 

My recollection is the U.K. Wiring Regulations.  

 

Best wishes for the holiday season,

Rich

 

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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-04 Thread Richard Nute 
 

Do you have any recommendation of reference book about UK system requiring the 
use of fuse protection?

 

My recollection is the U.K. Wiring Regulations.  

 

Best wishes for the holiday season,

Rich

 


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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-03 Thread Scott Xe 
Hi Rich,

 

Thanks for your reminder of fuse usage!  I remember the fuse rating is subject 
to the gauge of conductors in mains cord, not related to the power supply 
protection.  Do you have any recommendation of reference book about UK system 
requiring the use of fuse protection?  I would like to refresh my understanding 
in this area.

 

Inside the power supplies, it may have thermal protection device but may not 
have the fuse.  The thermal protection device is required by the permissible 
operating temperature in normal and abnormal modes of the end product standard.

 

Scott

 

 

 

From: Richard Nute 
Reply-To: 
Date: Sunday, 4 December 2016 at 4:00 AM
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

 

I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to protect the power cordage.  In 
the U.K., outlets are supplied by a ring circuit rather than a branch circuit, 
therefore the power cord could exceed its ampacity (a U.S.A. term).  So, if no 
power cord, no need for a fuse in the plug.  

I wonder if the power supply has a fuse to protect the power supply.  If so, 
would this count as the plug fuse?

 

Rich

 

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 5:01 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit product. It 
has interchangeable pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but it has no 
fuse. I think this is illegal and intend to notify Trading Standards, as the 
overall product is marketed by a prominent European company and is widely 
offered on the Internet.

Is there any exemption at all for the requirement that a BS 1363 plug in any 
form must have a fuse?

 

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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-03 Thread Ted Eckert 
I downloaded the full report out of curiosity. Testing was done by Underwriters 
Laboratories on 400 samples of adapters that carried a counterfeit UL mark. 
Only 3 samples passed the electric strength test meaning an over 99% failure 
rate on that one test alone. The second most common failure was on the touch 
current test. To say “most” failed the test is an understatement. I don’t know 
the sampling method UL used, so I don’t know if the 400 samples were from 400 
different vendors or if there were multiple samples of the same type of 
adapter. However, the information in the report not very encouraging for those 
combatting counterfeit goods.

This may become an interesting issue as USB-C power supplies become more 
common. We have already seen USB=C devices that can cause equipment 
damage<http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/02/google-engineer-finds-usb-type-c-cable-thats-so-bad-it-fried-his-chromebook-pixel/>.
 We will also see a lot of people looking for additional adapters. A good 
quick-charge adapter that follows USB-C protocols and meets the applicable 
safety requirements won’t be inexpensive. Budget-minded consumers may be 
tempted to buy a cheap adapter and hope that it works right.

Ted Eckert
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: john Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 12:56 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

Evening
A few weeks ago I went to a UK Electrical Safety First (ESF) Seminar, and, 
IIRC, this subject was covered in a presentation where it was said that the 
main point of failure was the Primary-to-Secondary insulation – most did not 
even meet the dielectric strength requirements for Basic Insulation ☹.
John E Allen
W. London, UK

From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: 03 December 2016 20:10
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

https://www.tradingstandards.uk/news-policy/news-room/2016/warning-over-fake-chargers-and-second-hand-electrics

I wonder what the basic safety test was that failed in these chargers?
Rich

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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-03 Thread john Allen 
Evening

A few weeks ago I went to a UK Electrical Safety First (ESF) Seminar, and, 
IIRC, this subject was covered in a presentation where it was said that the 
main point of failure was the Primary-to-Secondary insulation – most did not 
even meet the dielectric strength requirements for Basic Insulation L.

John E Allen

W. London, UK

 

From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: 03 December 2016 20:10
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

https://www.tradingstandards.uk/news-policy/news-room/2016/warning-over-fake-chargers-and-second-hand-electrics

 

I wonder what the basic safety test was that failed in these chargers?

Rich

 

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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-03 Thread Richard Nute 
https://www.tradingstandards.uk/news-policy/news-room/2016/warning-over-fake-chargers-and-second-hand-electrics

 

I wonder what the basic safety test was that failed in these chargers?

Rich

 


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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-03 Thread Richard Nute 
 

I understood the fuse in the U.K. plug was to
protect the power cordage.  In the U.K., outlets
are supplied by a ring circuit rather than a
branch circuit, therefore the power cord could
exceed its ampacity (a U.S.A. term).  So, if no
power cord, no need for a fuse in the plug.  

I wonder if the power supply has a fuse to protect
the power supply.  If so, would this count as the
plug fuse?

 

Rich

 

 

From: John Woodgate
[mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2016 5:01 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363
plug-in power supply

 

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part
of a multi-unit product. It has interchangeable
pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but
it has no fuse. I think this is illegal and intend
to notify Trading Standards, as the overall
product is marketed by a prominent European
company and is widely offered on the Internet.

Is there any exemption at all for the requirement
that a BS 1363 plug in any form must have a fuse?

 

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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-03 Thread Ted Eckert 
I don’t think direct plug-in equipment is exempted from the plug regulation. I 
believe that there is a different application as long as the detachable 
plug-adapter has a design such that it only attached to the direct plug-in 
power supply it is intended to be used with. The fuse is inside of the power 
supply and the whole assembly is fused as required. In this case, the fuse is 
not replaceable and the end user has to replace the supply if the fuse opens, 
but it is still fused. There are limitations to this construction as there can 
be no cord and the plug adapter must be designed such that it only reasonably 
fits onto the intended direct plug-in adapter. The complete assembly is tested 
to EN 60950-1, but this still requires the plug to comply with BS 1363 and this 
can only be accomplished with the two parts assembled together. I expect the 
same approach to be taken with EN 62368-1.

In summary, for direct plug-in equipment, the fuse can be located in the power 
supply but the full assembly still needs to comply with the relevant parts of 
BS 1363.

I will also note that this is an area that is not overlooked in market 
surveillance. Various groups are concerned with the safety of direct plug-in 
supplies and there is independent testing that occurs. The following press 
release was issued yesterday.
https://www.tradingstandards.uk/news-policy/news-room/2016/warning-over-fake-chargers-and-second-hand-electrics


Ted Eckert
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my 
employer, BSI, ASTA/Intertek or any other test agency.
.

From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 7:02 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

It is interesting finding!  I believe the direct plug-in equipment is exempted 
from BS 1363 plug regulation but have to meet with end product standard such as 
EN 60950-1 as long as the pin module complies with the dimensional requirements 
of BS 1363.

The chargers of Apple, Samsung, JBL, LG, etc. for mobile phones, BT speakers, 
headphones, etc. do not have a fuse in the plug.  However,  Apple’s chargers 
for iPads and Microsoft chargers for Surface tablets do have a fuse in the plug 
of their direct plug-in equipment.

Looking forward to hearing the legal basis from other experts!

Scott




From: John Woodgate mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com>>
Reply-To: John Woodgate mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com>>
Date: Saturday, 3 December 2016 at 9:01 PM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit product. It 
has interchangeable pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but it has no 
fuse. I think this is illegal and intend to notify Trading Standards, as the 
overall product is marketed by a prominent European company and is widely 
offered on the Internet.
Is there any exemption at all for the requirement that a BS 1363 plug in any 
form must have a fuse?

-


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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-03 Thread John Allen 
John

 

TBH, there are extremely few, (if any?) plug-in PSUs of the type you
describe on the UK market that DO have a fuse, and I don't think they are
certified to BS1363 anyway as they are not "plugs" in the sense of that
standard.

 

A quick search on typical units tends to indicate that many are certified to
60950-1, although I assume this will change as that standard is phased out.

 

John E Allen

W.London, UK

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: 03 December 2016 13:01
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit product.
It has interchangeable pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but it
has no fuse. I think this is illegal and intend to notify Trading Standards,
as the overall product is marketed by a prominent European company and is
widely offered on the Internet.

Is there any exemption at all for the requirement that a BS 1363 plug in any
form must have a fuse?

 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


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well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell  

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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Re: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

2016-12-03 Thread Scott Xe 
It is interesting finding!  I believe the direct plug-in equipment is exempted 
from BS 1363 plug regulation but have to meet with end product standard such as 
EN 60950-1 as long as the pin module complies with the dimensional requirements 
of BS 1363.

 

The chargers of Apple, Samsung, JBL, LG, etc. for mobile phones, BT speakers, 
headphones, etc. do not have a fuse in the plug.  However,  Apple’s chargers 
for iPads and Microsoft chargers for Surface tablets do have a fuse in the plug 
of their direct plug-in equipment.

 

Looking forward to hearing the legal basis from other experts!

 

Scott

 

 

 

 

From: John Woodgate 
Reply-To: John Woodgate 
Date: Saturday, 3 December 2016 at 9:01 PM
To: 
Subject: [PSES] British question, about a BS1363 plug-in power supply

 

I received a 5 W SMPS plug-in power supply as part of a multi-unit product. It 
has interchangeable pins for EU, US, Australian and UK  sockets, but it has no 
fuse. I think this is illegal and intend to notify Trading Standards, as the 
overall product is marketed by a prominent European company and is widely 
offered on the Internet.

Is there any exemption at all for the requirement that a BS 1363 plug in any 
form must have a fuse?

 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

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http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

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