Re: [Emc-users] Endmills for aluminium

[jeremy youngs]

well then ill put my .02 in
what aluminum alloy?
what quantity of material to remove whats the power of the spindle and
whats the fastest effective machining feed of the machine?
all of that considered for 5000, 6000 series any T condition I prefer
2 flute endmills as fast as the spindle can turn 10k is preferable :)
at about .004 feed per tooth but is this situation capable of those
numbers? and for the 2000 and 7000 series I prefer 4 flutes as they
reduce the chipload and increase my ability to feed although at 10k
spindle i am out of feed at 350 ipm ( of course all of this is at work
as my machine simply lacks the testicular fortitude to do this with
also with an 8mm endmill i would probably keep chipload per tooth
around .002-.003
as for coolant i always flood with blaser but thats what we have,
tried some blue stuff once worked great but it would peel your skin
off i n a few days


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[Emc-users] Endmills for aluminium

[Roland Jollivet]

On 16 February 2013 17:32, Viesturs Lācis  wrote:

In university I found out that better than pure tap water would be

> mixing the water with soda (Na2CO3).
> Yes, I know about the need of coolant. As I already have been adviced
> before, mist coolant spray is recommended for aluminium, but this time
> my budget is very very tight.
>
>
>
Use alcohol in your coolant if you're cutting just aluminium.

Have a look at the Datron videos for clues/inspiration. They're really good;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgrPzCMVgCQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PC9ezN6cno
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXcizJ2mVgQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkCvyxt2c6Y

And if Datron use single flutes, it must be a good idea;
http://www.datron.com/cnc-tooling.php

Regards
Roland
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Re: [Emc-users] Endmills for aluminium

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 16 February 2013 21:11:50 Jon Elson did opine:

> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > and climb cutting with a single flute cannot be done in metal, the
> > table will be pulled forward, the next time the edge comes around its
> > too deep a cut & the mill snaps off.
> 
> Well, on a tight machine, you can climb mill in aluminum, at least.  it
> leaves a much
> better surface finish.  I think with any number of flutes, if the table
> can be pulled
> ahead of the feed due to slack leadscrew nuts, then climb milling is
> dangerous.
> I do almost all my work in the climb direction without problems, but my
> mill has a known backlash of about .001".
> 
Whereas getting mine under .003", and keeping it there for more than an 
hour is something I mark on the calendar. :(

> Jon
> 
> 
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Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Endmills for aluminium

[Jon Elson]

Gene Heskett wrote:
> and climb cutting with a single flute cannot be done in metal, the table 
> will be pulled forward, the next time the edge comes around its too deep a 
> cut & the mill snaps off.
Well, on a tight machine, you can climb mill in aluminum, at least.  it 
leaves a much
better surface finish.  I think with any number of flutes, if the table 
can be pulled
ahead of the feed due to slack leadscrew nuts, then climb milling is 
dangerous.
I do almost all my work in the climb direction without problems, but my mill
has a known backlash of about .001".

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Oversized balls

[ed]

Andy Pugh wrote:
> On 16 Feb 2013, at 14:58, ed  wrote:
>
>   
>> Do you have backlash the full length or is the screw worn in the middle? 
>> Most can be reballed to reduce the slop but you must be careful that the 
>> OD of the ball does not bear, you want contact on the quadrants. How 
>> much  backlash do you have now?
>> 
>
> Turning the pulley by hand between positions with the table clamped shows 
> 0.08mm delta on the DRO. 
> This is with brand-new parts, but no preload. RSW pattern nut. 
>   
With that amount of backlash I would try some that were .1mm larger then 
check it again. Without knowing the pressure angle it makes it difficult 
to give a solid number.

 Is this a single nut? Some are doubles with shims between to set lash, 
they of course cost more.

Ed.


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Re: [Emc-users] Endmills for aluminium

[Stuart Stevenson]

I like WD40 as a cutting solution for finish cuts on aluminum.

On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Marcus Bowman  wrote:

> Viesturs,
>
> I use Accupro solid carbide router cutters designed for machining plastic
> and aluminium. They come from www.mscindustrial.co.uk (which is a large
> American company and I think they will ship across Europe). Go to
> www.mscdirect.co.uk and search for MIG-30035C (on special offer right
> now, using product code DQMIG-30035C). They do sizes from 2mm diameter to
> 12mm diameter.
>
> I have used the 2mm and 6mm diameter end mills and can recommend them.
> They have a high helix angle and the insides of the flutes are polished to
> a mirror finish, to help prevent the aluminium sticking to the flutes. I
> run them dry, or use some brushed on white spirits (turpentine) which
> stinks but works ok. I finish by climb milling, and the finish is excellent.
> Be warned, though; these are solid carbide and quite fragile. I have
> snapped quite a few, which is expensive.
>
> Regards,
>
> Marcus
>
>
> On 16 Feb 2013, at 15:32, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
>
> 2013/2/16 Peter Blodow :
> > Viestors,
> > the endmill bit you showed is made of full carbide, a little oversized
> > for aluminum.
>
> Do You mean oversized in terms of diameter? I am going for 1 kW Kress
> spindle, it will handle that.
>
> > Alu tools generally have a steeper cutting angle and
> > higher pitch than tools for iron, that's all. Moreover, much higher
> > cutting speed is used in alu.
>
> I have some theoretical material to calculate cutting parameters, so I
> expect to get some practical experience in few weeks as well.
>
> > Be sure to use plenty of water based
> > fluid, I have been using pure tap water, too, in case there was no self
> > mixing cutting oil available.
>
> In university I found out that better than pure tap water would be
> mixing the water with soda (Na2CO3).
> Yes, I know about the need of coolant. As I already have been adviced
> before, mist coolant spray is recommended for aluminium, but this time
> my budget is very very tight.
>
> > I take it that you are on my side of the pond, since your name seems to
> > come from the Baltic.
>
> Yupp, that is correct!
>
> > So here is an European
> > distributor that I have made good experiences with:
> > http://www.fwt-gmbh.de/
>
> Thank You, their pricing seems much better!
>
> --
> Viesturs
>
> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] program building puzzlement

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

On 02/16/2013 12:10 PM, lloyd wilson wrote:
> I'm not sure if this should be posted here, on in development - it's a
> programming question, but it's not an official part of LCNC. I'll start
> here;  if too arcane for this audience, feel free to suggest a re-direction.
>
> I'm working on a user-space interface program for my Hurco mill control
> panel, using a subset of the NML portion of halui, but getting data via
> a modbus  connection, rather than a hal environment.
>
> After a >LONG< time (my  C++ language skills are at the pidgin level), I
> finally got the program to get through compilation, and banged into an
> issue that has me baffled (don't speak makefiles so good either).
>
> I defined the new program in the usr_intf submake file, rather than
> creating a new subdirectory.  I cloned the halui entries:
>
> HALUISRCS := emc/usr_intf/halui.cc
>
> becomes
>
> MODBUSUISRCS := emc/usr_intf/modbusui.cc \
>   emc/usr_intf/modbus_rtu.c
> #modbus_rtu is a modbus library that Arduino likes; so does linux
>
> and
>
> ../bin/halui: $(call TOOBJS, $(HALUISRCS)) ../lib/liblinuxcnc.a
> ../lib/liblinuxcncini.so.0 ../lib/libnml.so.0 ../lib/liblinuxcnchal.so.0
>   $(ECHO) Linking $(notdir $@)
>   $(Q)$(CXX) $(LDFLAGS) -o $@ $(ULFLAGS) $^
> TARGETS += ../bin/halui
>
> becomes
>
> ../bin/modbusui: $(call TOOBJS, $(MODBUSUISRCS)) ../lib/liblinuxcnc.a
> ../lib/liblinuxcncini.so.0 ../lib/libnml.so.0
>   $(ECHO) Linking $(notdir $@)
>   $(Q)$(CXX) $(LDFLAGS) -o $@ $(ULFLAGS) $^
> TARGETS += ../bin/modbusui
> #this target doesn't need liblinuxcnchal
>
> with these entries, both source files compile as expected, but in the
> link stage, I get errors that the functions which are located in the
> modbus_rtu object file can't be found; it's like the linker doesn't know
> about the .o file (which it just compiled).
>
> Other targets in the same directory use mixed C++ and C sources, so it
> must be doable. Just to ensure that this is not  due to invisible typos,
> I copied the modbus_rtu source into the modbusui source, revised the
> source list to modbusui only, and the compile/link process ran to
> completion. I have to conclude that this is either something I can't see
> in the makefile, or some missing incantation that needs to be added to
> one of the source files.
>
> Anybody have a clue what could cause this behavior?

The makefile snippets above look right, I want to see the make output to 
debug further.

Run "make clean", then "make V=1", and pastebin the output.

Also...  I don't want to stop you from writing software for your machine 
if that's what you want to do, but if I wanted to hook up a modbus 
control panel to LinuxCNC i would look at the modbus-to-hal driver we 
already have.  I've never used it, but it might be able to talk to your 
control panel, and then you'd just have to hook it up to halui in HAL...


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[Emc-users] program building puzzlement

[lloyd wilson]

I'm not sure if this should be posted here, on in development - it's a 
programming question, but it's not an official part of LCNC. I'll start 
here;  if too arcane for this audience, feel free to suggest a re-direction.

I'm working on a user-space interface program for my Hurco mill control 
panel, using a subset of the NML portion of halui, but getting data via 
a modbus  connection, rather than a hal environment.

After a >LONG< time (my  C++ language skills are at the pidgin level), I 
finally got the program to get through compilation, and banged into an 
issue that has me baffled (don't speak makefiles so good either).

I defined the new program in the usr_intf submake file, rather than 
creating a new subdirectory.  I cloned the halui entries:

HALUISRCS := emc/usr_intf/halui.cc

becomes

MODBUSUISRCS := emc/usr_intf/modbusui.cc \
 emc/usr_intf/modbus_rtu.c
#modbus_rtu is a modbus library that Arduino likes; so does linux

and

../bin/halui: $(call TOOBJS, $(HALUISRCS)) ../lib/liblinuxcnc.a 
../lib/liblinuxcncini.so.0 ../lib/libnml.so.0 ../lib/liblinuxcnchal.so.0
 $(ECHO) Linking $(notdir $@)
 $(Q)$(CXX) $(LDFLAGS) -o $@ $(ULFLAGS) $^
TARGETS += ../bin/halui

becomes

../bin/modbusui: $(call TOOBJS, $(MODBUSUISRCS)) ../lib/liblinuxcnc.a 
../lib/liblinuxcncini.so.0 ../lib/libnml.so.0
 $(ECHO) Linking $(notdir $@)
 $(Q)$(CXX) $(LDFLAGS) -o $@ $(ULFLAGS) $^
TARGETS += ../bin/modbusui
#this target doesn't need liblinuxcnchal

with these entries, both source files compile as expected, but in the 
link stage, I get errors that the functions which are located in the 
modbus_rtu object file can't be found; it's like the linker doesn't know 
about the .o file (which it just compiled).

Other targets in the same directory use mixed C++ and C sources, so it 
must be doable. Just to ensure that this is not  due to invisible typos, 
I copied the modbus_rtu source into the modbusui source, revised the 
source list to modbusui only, and the compile/link process ran to 
completion. I have to conclude that this is either something I can't see 
in the makefile, or some missing incantation that needs to be added to 
one of the source files.

Anybody have a clue what could cause this behavior?

Thanks as always

lloyd

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Re: [Emc-users] Cincinnati Arrow 500 retrofit...

[Andy Pugh]

On 16 Feb 2013, at 20:01, Jon Elson  wrote:

> Or, just mount the bearing solidly, place the motor in with no tension, and
> lock the bolts down.  This should self-align the motor with the extra
> bearing.

I don't think any of this is necessary, but you could relieve the motor 
bearings of all but the motor weight by mounting the pulley on a spigot on a 
set of angular contact bearings, mounting the motor spindle rigidly in the 
pulley and then making a torque-only link to the motor case with a rose joint 
linkage. 
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Re: [Emc-users] Endmills for aluminium

[Marcus Bowman]

Viesturs,

I use Accupro solid carbide router cutters designed for machining plastic and 
aluminium. They come from www.mscindustrial.co.uk (which is a large American 
company and I think they will ship across Europe). Go to www.mscdirect.co.uk 
and search for MIG-30035C (on special offer right now, using product code 
DQMIG-30035C). They do sizes from 2mm diameter to 12mm diameter.

I have used the 2mm and 6mm diameter end mills and can recommend them. They 
have a high helix angle and the insides of the flutes are polished to a mirror 
finish, to help prevent the aluminium sticking to the flutes. I run them dry, 
or use some brushed on white spirits (turpentine) which stinks but works ok. I 
finish by climb milling, and the finish is excellent.
Be warned, though; these are solid carbide and quite fragile. I have snapped 
quite a few, which is expensive.

Regards,

Marcus


On 16 Feb 2013, at 15:32, Viesturs Lācis wrote:

2013/2/16 Peter Blodow :
> Viestors,
> the endmill bit you showed is made of full carbide, a little oversized
> for aluminum.

Do You mean oversized in terms of diameter? I am going for 1 kW Kress
spindle, it will handle that.

> Alu tools generally have a steeper cutting angle and
> higher pitch than tools for iron, that's all. Moreover, much higher
> cutting speed is used in alu.

I have some theoretical material to calculate cutting parameters, so I
expect to get some practical experience in few weeks as well.

> Be sure to use plenty of water based
> fluid, I have been using pure tap water, too, in case there was no self
> mixing cutting oil available.

In university I found out that better than pure tap water would be
mixing the water with soda (Na2CO3).
Yes, I know about the need of coolant. As I already have been adviced
before, mist coolant spray is recommended for aluminium, but this time
my budget is very very tight.

> I take it that you are on my side of the pond, since your name seems to
> come from the Baltic.

Yupp, that is correct!

> So here is an European
> distributor that I have made good experiences with:
> http://www.fwt-gmbh.de/

Thank You, their pricing seems much better!

-- 
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If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Cincinnati Arrow 500 retrofit...

[Jon Elson]

Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 15.02.13 08:08, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
>   
>> I don't know the room you have but you could mount a pillow block opposite
>> the motor to support the pulley.
>> 
>
> Thanks, Stuart, that's a very appealing idea, given the wussy motor bearing.
>
> If I bored the pillow block slightly oversize, then the extra bearing
> could perhaps be epoxied into place, with the gap-filling adhesive
> setting after the motor is fully mounted.
>   
Or, just mount the bearing solidly, place the motor in with no tension, and
lock the bolts down.  This should self-align the motor with the extra
bearing.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] a question about European suppliers, was Re: Endmills for aluminium

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 16 February 2013 13:49:51 Andy Pugh did opine:

> On 16 Feb 2013, at 15:54, "Kent A. Reed"  wrote:
> > Is the problem simply that European suppliers are not using the
> > Internet
> 
> I tend to use Cromwell Tools when things feel urgent
> Www.cromwell.co.uk
> But typically I collect in person as they have a branch less than a mile
> from my house.

I'd kill the neighbors cat for that Andy, everything I get is bought 
online.  But there are also many advantages to small town living too. :)

Cheers, Gene
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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My views 

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devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV>
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle rpm display

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 16 February 2013 13:23:37 Andy Pugh did opine:

> On 16 Feb 2013, at 14:35, Tomaz T.  wrote:
> > Now what I want is only to connect this with RPM display in pyvcp.
> 
> Net spindle-cmd pyvcp..

Thanks Andy, but that will probably need sent through a scale module to 
calibrate, and lacking the feedback path, will at best be a SWAG that will 
not show slowing vs loading.  Adequate for surface speed calcs though.


His use of the C6 brings up a question in my mind as to "how is the 0-10 
volts from the C6 actually coupled into the VFD?"

In my lathes lashup I found that a direct connection to the pot arm 
terminal as the C6 docs show, gave an extremely non-linear control that no 
amount of faffing about with pid terms made satisfactory, but it was made 
quite linear, enough that a pid module could cope with it, by inserting a 
10k resistor between the C6's output and the pot arm terminal of the motor 
controller.  The OP might want to test that as it might improve the 
accuracy of the tach dials SWAG quite a bit.  The voltage drop across that 
10k was, in my case, only a millivolt or so, but it made a huge difference 
in the control characteristics.

I might also add that the C6, if part of a feedback loop, is call a 
surveyor and set stakes slow device, so those 2 10 uf electrolytic can caps 
were replaced with .1 uf mylars in mine.  One is in the analog out, 
adjacent to the terminals, the other is in the charge pump detector that 
runs the relays, time lag there is a huge problem for the motor controller 
in a mini-lathe.  It sees any speed sig as an error if the relay is slow.  
His vfd may, or may not have similar don't even power up if the speed isn't 
zero logic.

Just a thought. BTDT :)

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Endmills for aluminium

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 16 February 2013 12:20:30 Viesturs Lācis did opine:

> Hello!
> 
> Since I have totally zero experience with milling and what tools
> should be used, I would appreciate some hints.
> How good are single-flute endmills? Do they induce more vibration than
> 2-flute endmills? It seems to me that single flute endmills might be
> easier to resharpen. Is that really so?
> 
I so far, have only tried to resharpen the ends only if both 2 and 4 flute 
mills.  With moderate success as they are all carbide, and the diamond 
disks available for a dremel, which I turn in the mills spindle since the 
dremel turns them too fast, ablating the diamond due to the heat, are a bit 
coarse grained to sharpen carbide with.  I get better results when the 
touch is under a thou, and the table is swept back and forth.  You can see 
an individual grain of diamond, the tallest one on the disk, sweeping back 
and forth across the face of the edge.  This is not only a very slow, time 
wasting procedure, it still leaves a far rougher edge than it had when new.

A single flute mill on my toy, creates far more vibration than its worth.  
and climb cutting with a single flute cannot be done in metal, the table 
will be pulled forward, the next time the edge comes around its too deep a 
cut & the mill snaps off.  Good in wood though, leaving a much smoother 
finish that I have gone directly to wiping a few coats of Sam's Stuff on 
for finish.

Generally, use the 2 flute, TiAN coated mills on alu or brass, and the 4 
fluters, TiAN coated, on steel.  If the tables are tight, climb cutting is 
preferred because dig cutting starts out with just edge contact & drives 
the mill deeper, skidding along until enough pressure is present to make it 
start cutting.  The thickest part of the sliver cut will then be as the 
edge clears the material, whereas the climb cut, starts out thick, assuring 
that it is cutting, and gradually thins.  Edges last longer when there is 
enough mass in the cut away chip to carry away the cutting heat.

> I also would appreciate any tips for sellers in Europe with reasonable
> pricing.

I am currently paying from 9 to 13 dollars for carbide, TiAN coated, std 
length 2 and 4 fluters, both in square and ball nose styles.  Your 8mm 
would probably scale to 12-16 dollars (equ in Euro's) I'd think.

I have a plastic container the dull and broken ones get tossed in as 
carbide is recyclable.

> As I will purchase milling motor from these guys, I am
> currently looking at 8 mm endmill here:
> http://www.damencnc.com/en/tools/cutting-tools/milling-cutter/226
 
That mill, because of the spiral flute, should do a great job in alu.  My 
own single flute that I broke 2 of, was a cemented carbide, straight flute, 
uncoated and easily resharpened when the cherry I was cutting started 
burning.  Cherry burns very easily when being machined, often demanding 
sharper tools than the carbide for wood working are when falling out of the 
package they are sold in.  There, the need for resharpening a brand new bit 
is very real.

Whats the current dollar/euro rate? 40 & change for that 8mm seems a tad 
high, but not knowing the money rate...

Working in alu, mill life will be extended a lot, as much as 10x, if you do 
not allow air access to the cut.  This is best done for non-enclosed 
machines, with a mister that throws a mist of something like safflower oil 
directly at the cut so that the cut surface is oil coated and sealed away 
from the oxygen in the air, helping to prevent the formation of alu oxide 
on the cut surface.  alu is a VERY reactive metal, oxidizing(burning) 
literally microseconds behind the edge of the cutter.  The air driven 
mister, if adjusted, only uses perhaps an ounce or 2 of oil an hour in 
order to keep things wet enough seal the surface, and the air blows away 
the swarf at the same time so there is minimal re-cutting of loose chips 
which also leaves a poorer surface finish.

But it also puts an oil fog in the air of the shop, requiring trips to the 
house to soap and water clean your glasses, and a respirator for your 
lungs.  Best would be a housing connected to an out of the building and 
running, small dust collector, bag optional.  I tried the end of the 4" 
hose downwind of it but that was not a total solution to the oil fog in the 
air.

> I tried googling, but all I can find, is located on the other side of
> the pond. Thanks in advance!

Others here will probably have different ideas. As a hobbyist I get away 
with stuff that OSHA would cite me for in a heartbeat if I was trying to 
run a commercial shop.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Endmills for aluminium

[Stephen Dubovsky]

I have very little experience w/ 1 flutes, but was turned on to Onsrud
single flutes by a friend who does this sort of stuff for a living on big
commercial gantry machines w/ huge spindles.  I've used on my gantry router
in wood and aluminum with high success.  A single flute cuts the feed rate
& spindle hp in half compared to a 2 flute obviously (w/ the same chip
load.)  W/ a higher speed spindle its really helps on my travel speed
(steppers) & hp limited gantry machine.

Stephen


On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Peter Blodow  wrote:

> Viesturs,
>
> Am 16.02.2013 16:32, schrieb Viesturs La-cis:
> /snip... oversized for aluminum.
> > Do You mean oversized in terms of diameter? I am going for 1 kW Kress
> > spindle, it will handle that.
> No, I meant hardness. Diameter depends purely on your needs. Only in the
> case you mill anodized aluminum, with surface hardness of carborundum,
> carbide is advised to keep tool wear down. Look up cutting speed in your
> handbooks, you will be surprised!
> > In university I found out that better than pure tap water would be
> > mixing the water with soda (Na2CO3).
>
> Making the fluid basic (pH over 7) is mainly to prevent corrosion of the
> machine. The soda has little influence on cutting. I dry my mill every
> time after use, so I have no worry. Water is a good coolant, and
> especially useful in the case of aluminum (AFAIK, not yet completely
> understood) because it reacts with alu in the very instant of cutting,
> yielding a microscopic aluminum oxide skin on the chip's surface, thus
> preventing their sticking (micro-welding) to the tool and among one
> another. Oil is good to reduce friction when working in steel.
> > Yes, I know about the need of coolant. As I already have been adviced
> > before, mist coolant spray is recommended for aluminium, but this time
> > my budget is very very tight.
> Besides, flooding flushes the chips away effectively, and at 20 000
> turns per minute you get a lot of chips!
>
> Thank You, their pricing seems much better!
>
> I have bought a set of 9 collets plus nut from them last year under EUR
> 100.
>
> Best regards
>
> Peter
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] a question about European suppliers, was Re: Endmills for aluminium

[Andy Pugh]

On 16 Feb 2013, at 15:54, "Kent A. Reed"  wrote:

> Is the problem simply that European suppliers are not using the Internet

I tend to use Cromwell Tools when things feel urgent
Www.cromwell.co.uk
But typically I collect in person as they have a branch less than a mile from 
my house. 
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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] a question about European suppliers, was Re: Endmills for aluminium

[Peter Blodow]

Kent,

there are very potent suppliers in Europe, al least here in Germany, 
naming only Hahn & Kolb or Hoffmann Werkzeuge (AFAIK, the lagerst seller 
in Europe). Selling here is somewhat different from what America does, 
because these firms have a lot of salesmen visiting the customers so 
there is little need for online shopping. Selling for stock is done by 
these salesmen, for urgent needs per telephone. Customers that must obey 
to the public purchasing rules (Universities, firms with projects funded 
by tax money, workshops of the Public Hand, such as communities) have 
problems to use internet markets anyway. A little old-fashioned.

Peter

Am 16.02.2013 16:54, schrieb Kent A. Reed:
> On 2/16/2013 10:03 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
>> I tried googling, but all I can find, is located on the other side of the 
>> pond.
>> Thanks in advance!
> Gentle persons:
>
> My idle curiosity has gotten the better of me.
>
> I see statements like Viesturs' a lot.
>
> Is the problem simply that European suppliers are not using the Internet
> for sales as much as our North American suppliers are or is it something
> else? Either way, I feel your pain. I don't know what I'd do without
> online suppliers.
>
> Regards,
> Kent
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle rpm display

[Andy Pugh]

On 16 Feb 2013, at 14:35, Tomaz T.  wrote:

> Now what I want is only to connect this with RPM display in pyvcp.

Net spindle-cmd pyvcp..

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Re: [Emc-users] [OT] a question about European suppliers, was Re: Endmills for aluminium

[Dave Caroline]

On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Kent A. Reed  wrote:
> On 2/16/2013 10:03 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
>> I tried googling, but all I can find, is located on the other side of the 
>> pond.
>> Thanks in advance!
> Gentle persons:
>
> My idle curiosity has gotten the better of me.
>
> I see statements like Viesturs' a lot.
>
> Is the problem simply that European suppliers are not using the Internet
> for sales as much as our North American suppliers are or is it something
> else? Either way, I feel your pain. I don't know what I'd do without
> online suppliers.
>

I think there are a lot of stupid sites using either PDFs to sell or
are nothing more than
flytraps to catch the users name address and phone so a salesman can
call and sell over priced goods
with a large percentage still 3 or 4 page brochure ware.

I find Sandvik Coromants site bad to get around but once you get the
PDF it is identical to the paper version.
They seem to have made their site as difficult as possible to navigate
even though the information is there.

But there are sites with online purchase like
http://www.mscdirect.co.uk/Milling/1375.html nee J&L


Dave Caroline

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Re: [Emc-users] Endmills for aluminium

[Peter Blodow]

Viesturs,

Am 16.02.2013 16:32, schrieb Viesturs La-cis:
/snip... oversized for aluminum.
> Do You mean oversized in terms of diameter? I am going for 1 kW Kress
> spindle, it will handle that.
No, I meant hardness. Diameter depends purely on your needs. Only in the 
case you mill anodized aluminum, with surface hardness of carborundum, 
carbide is advised to keep tool wear down. Look up cutting speed in your 
handbooks, you will be surprised!
> In university I found out that better than pure tap water would be
> mixing the water with soda (Na2CO3).

Making the fluid basic (pH over 7) is mainly to prevent corrosion of the 
machine. The soda has little influence on cutting. I dry my mill every 
time after use, so I have no worry. Water is a good coolant, and 
especially useful in the case of aluminum (AFAIK, not yet completely 
understood) because it reacts with alu in the very instant of cutting, 
yielding a microscopic aluminum oxide skin on the chip's surface, thus 
preventing their sticking (micro-welding) to the tool and among one 
another. Oil is good to reduce friction when working in steel.
> Yes, I know about the need of coolant. As I already have been adviced
> before, mist coolant spray is recommended for aluminium, but this time
> my budget is very very tight.
Besides, flooding flushes the chips away effectively, and at 20 000 
turns per minute you get a lot of chips!

Thank You, their pricing seems much better!

I have bought a set of 9 collets plus nut from them last year under EUR 100.

Best regards

Peter


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[Emc-users] [OT] a question about European suppliers, was Re: Endmills for aluminium

[Kent A. Reed]

On 2/16/2013 10:03 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> I tried googling, but all I can find, is located on the other side of the 
> pond.
> Thanks in advance!
Gentle persons:

My idle curiosity has gotten the better of me.

I see statements like Viesturs' a lot.

Is the problem simply that European suppliers are not using the Internet 
for sales as much as our North American suppliers are or is it something 
else? Either way, I feel your pain. I don't know what I'd do without 
online suppliers.

Regards,
Kent


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Re: [Emc-users] Oversized balls

[Andy Pugh]

On 16 Feb 2013, at 14:58, ed  wrote:

> Do you have backlash the full length or is the screw worn in the middle? 
> Most can be reballed to reduce the slop but you must be careful that the 
> OD of the ball does not bear, you want contact on the quadrants. How 
> much  backlash do you have now?

Turning the pulley by hand between positions with the table clamped shows 
0.08mm delta on the DRO. 
This is with brand-new parts, but no preload. RSW pattern nut. 


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Re: [Emc-users] Endmills for aluminium

[Viesturs Lācis]

2013/2/16 Peter Blodow :
> Viestors,
> the endmill bit you showed is made of full carbide, a little oversized
> for aluminum.

Do You mean oversized in terms of diameter? I am going for 1 kW Kress
spindle, it will handle that.

> Alu tools generally have a steeper cutting angle and
> higher pitch than tools for iron, that's all. Moreover, much higher
> cutting speed is used in alu.

I have some theoretical material to calculate cutting parameters, so I
expect to get some practical experience in few weeks as well.

> Be sure to use plenty of water based
> fluid, I have been using pure tap water, too, in case there was no self
> mixing cutting oil available.

In university I found out that better than pure tap water would be
mixing the water with soda (Na2CO3).
Yes, I know about the need of coolant. As I already have been adviced
before, mist coolant spray is recommended for aluminium, but this time
my budget is very very tight.

> I take it that you are on my side of the pond, since your name seems to
> come from the Baltic.

Yupp, that is correct!

> So here is an European
> distributor that I have made good experiences with:
> http://www.fwt-gmbh.de/

Thank You, their pricing seems much better!

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http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Endmills for aluminium

[Peter Blodow]

Viestors,
the endmill bit you showed is made of full carbide, a little oversized 
for aluminum. Alu tools generally have a steeper cutting angle and 
higher pitch than tools for iron, that's all. Moreover, much higher 
cutting speed is used in alu. Be sure to use plenty of water based 
fluid, I have been using pure tap water, too, in case there was no self 
mixing cutting oil available.

I take it that you are on my side of the pond, since your name seems to 
come from the Baltic, land of my ancestors. So here is an European 
distributor that I have made good experiences with:
http://www.fwt-gmbh.de/

Good luck!



Am 16.02.2013 16:03, schrieb Viesturs Lācis:
> Hello!
>
> Since I have totally zero experience with milling and what tools
> should be used, I would appreciate some hints.
> How good are single-flute endmills? Do they induce more vibration than
> 2-flute endmills? It seems to me that single flute endmills might be
> easier to resharpen. Is that really so?
>
> I also would appreciate any tips for sellers in Europe with reasonable 
> pricing.
> As I will purchase milling motor from these guys, I am currently
> looking at 8 mm endmill here:
> http://www.damencnc.com/en/tools/cutting-tools/milling-cutter/226
>
> I tried googling, but all I can find, is located on the other side of the 
> pond.
> Thanks in advance!
>


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[Emc-users] Endmills for aluminium

[Viesturs Lācis]

Hello!

Since I have totally zero experience with milling and what tools
should be used, I would appreciate some hints.
How good are single-flute endmills? Do they induce more vibration than
2-flute endmills? It seems to me that single flute endmills might be
easier to resharpen. Is that really so?

I also would appreciate any tips for sellers in Europe with reasonable pricing.
As I will purchase milling motor from these guys, I am currently
looking at 8 mm endmill here:
http://www.damencnc.com/en/tools/cutting-tools/milling-cutter/226

I tried googling, but all I can find, is located on the other side of the pond.
Thanks in advance!

-- 
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If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Oversized balls

[ed]

andy pugh wrote:
> Has anyone tried reducing the backlash in a ballnut by fitting oversized 
> balls?
> If so, how did it turn out?
>
>   
Do you have backlash the full length or is the screw worn in the middle? 
Most can be reballed to reduce the slop but you must be careful that the 
OD of the ball does not bear, you want contact on the quadrants. How 
much  backlash do you have now?

I put new balls in my Well-Index X axis and it tightened it right up. 
Luckily the screw had very little wear.

Ed


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle rpm display

[Tomaz T .]

I'm controlling spindle VFD with C6 board (with reference voltage 0-10V) from 
cnc4pc:
http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=58

and here is complete setup for running this, and it runs perfectly for me:

setp stepgen.2.position-scale 1
setp stepgen.2.maxvel 18000
setp stepgen.2.steplen 2
setp stepgen.2.stepspace 0
setp stepgen.2.dirhold 2
setp stepgen.2.dirsetup 2
setp stepgen.2.maxaccel 200

#   Enable

net spindle-enable <= motion.spindle-on => stepgen.2.enable

#   Connect spindle speed to scaler

net spindle-cmd motion.spindle-speed-out => scale.0.in #

#   Connect scaler output to stepgen velocity

net spindle-freq <= scale.0.out => stepgen.2.velocity-cmd #

#   Connect output to the pin for the analog voltage of cnc4pc board

net spindle-out <= stepgen.2.step => parport.0.pin-14-out #

#   Control of spindle on/off over the relay instead of triac

net spindle-fwd motion.spindle-forward => parport.0.pin-16-out 



Now what I want is only to connect this with RPM display in pyvcp.

  
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle rpm display

[andy pugh]

On 16 February 2013 13:42, Gene Heskett  wrote:

>> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/hal_pyvcp_examples.html

> You are driving the spindle with a stepper?

It appears he is controlling the spindle by a stepper _and_ a VFD, if
the combination of configurations is anything to go by.

Tomaz: Exactly how are you driving the spindle, and what feedback do you have?

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle rpm display

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 16 February 2013 08:38:12 Tomaz T. did opine:

> I took configuration from here:
> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/hal_pyvcp_examples.html
> 
> I don't have encoder on spindle, and configuration for spindle in hal
> was taken here: http://cnc4pc.com/Files/EMC2.txt
 
You are driving the spindle with a stepper?  Interesting.  Makes 'rigid' 
threading a piece of cake but would need a huge motor and quite high 
voltage drivers for any real speed.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle rpm display

[andy pugh]

On 16 February 2013 12:30, Tomaz T.  wrote:
>
> I took configuration from here:
> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/hal_pyvcp_examples.html

That GS2 example will only work with the rest of the GS2 sample
config, as it assumes a GS2 VFD controlled by the serial port.

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[Emc-users] Oversized balls

[andy pugh]

Has anyone tried reducing the backlash in a ballnut by fitting oversized balls?
If so, how did it turn out?

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle rpm display

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 16 February 2013 07:58:23 Tomaz T. did opine:

> I'm trying to make working my spindle rpm display (pyvcp), but don't
> know which signal to connect or take from my .hal file.
> 
> Here is what is in my hal file for spindle:
> 
> 
> net spindle-enable <= motion.spindle-on => stepgen.2.enable
> net spindle-cmd motion.spindle-speed-out => scale.0.in
> net spindle-freq <= scale.0.out => stepgen.2.velocity-cmd
> net spindle-out <= stepgen.2.step => parport.0.pin-14-out�
> net spindle-fwd motion.spindle-forward => parport.0.pin-16-out
> 
> 
> and what I have in hal for display:
> 
> 
> addf mult2.2 servo-thread
> setp mult2.2.in1 28.75
> net cypher_speed mult2.2.in0 <= spindle-vfd.frequency-out
> net speed_out pyvcp.spindle_rpm <= mult2.2.out
> 
> 
> Probably spindle-vfd.frequency-out should be replaced with something
> from hal to make correct connection in my case?

Mine goes through some contortions, but the signal is originally derived
from encoder.0.velocity as I have a 50 cycle encoder on my lathes spindle.

net spindle-feedback0   encoder.0.velocity  
scale.0.in  scale.1.in  scale.2.in
# so scale.2 is the next grep.
addfscale.2 servo-thread
setpscale.2.gain60  # sets spindle display 
calibration, set at 10 rps=600 rpm
setpscale.2.offset  0.0 # for completeness
net tach-feed   scale.2.out 
limit2.3.in # to smooth tach reading
# and that feeds "limit2.3.in" so
addflimit2.3servo-thread
# smooth the tach readin
setplimit2.3.maxv   400 
# denoise the spindle rpm display
net spindle-rpm-filteredlimit2.3.out
pyvcp.spindle_rpm

# the limit2.3.maxv makes it behave much like a mechanical tach needle, 
adjust to suit. 400 approximates the slam it to full speed delta accel
my spindle can do with a 5" 4 jaw chuck mounted.  Toy lathe, obviously.

Calibration, scale.2.gain is derived from my oscilloscopes time base, 
watching the encoder index pulse where 1 second between pulses is
1 rps=60 rpm etc.  The encoder module also has an -rps output but
I found its much noisier.  This works well for me.

Not of course in the above order as my .hal file is more ordered than 
the above, I got that my 'grep'ing, and I do not use the => or <= syntax
in my "net" statements.  My spindle is pid servo'd.  Not as 'stiffly' as
I would like, but it saves fuses that way too, while still carving great
threads.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle rpm display

[Tomaz T .]

I took configuration from here:
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/hal_pyvcp_examples.html

I don't have encoder on spindle, and configuration for spindle in hal was taken 
here:
http://cnc4pc.com/Files/EMC2.txt
  
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle rpm display

[andy pugh]

On 16 February 2013 10:22, Tomaz T.  wrote:

> net cypher_speed mult2.2.in0 <= spindle-vfd.frequency-out
> net speed_out pyvcp.spindle_rpm <= mult2.2.out

Do you have a spindle encoder?

What is spindle-vfd.frequency-out ? Are you using the vfs11_vfd HAL component?

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Re: [Emc-users] Trim Posts

[Erik Christiansen]

On 16.02.13 11:32, Marshland Engineering wrote:
> Hi Chaps. Could you please trim your posts. They are getting quite long at 
> this point. 

Fullquoting does give all of the list recipients a lot of repeated words
to wade through, and can lead to planet-wide cursing. But hobby lists
are not renowned for making the effort to trim the bits not directly
being replied to. So it's probably worthwhile for recipients to also see
what can be done to bury some of the needlessly repeated verbiage.

One tool I use is:

$ apt-cache search t-prot
t-prot - display filter for RFC822 messages

It takes a bunch of options, to control what it compresses. I use it as
the display_filter in mutt¹. As an example, it compressed a TOFU post of
4 lines of reply, followed by "- Original Message -", then 7
times as much text, to just the reply, followed by:

- Original Message -
[---=| TOFU protection by t-prot: 28 lines snipped |=---]

A couple of mutt macros allow me to activate and deactivate the
compression while viewing a post, but it's rarely needed.

I will admit that otherwise reader-friendly bottom posts are not
improved by fullquoting, and my current t-prot settings don't handle
that well. I may have a go at optimising the settings. 

I wouldn't hold my breath while hoping to change the habits of a list.
(Even though everyone would benefit. ;-)

Erik

¹ t-prot filters from stdin to stdout, so works in any pipeline.
  It should then be compatible with a number of MUAs, I figure.


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  - Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar


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Re: [Emc-users] Cincinnati Arrow 500 retrofit...

[Erik Christiansen]

On 15.02.13 09:02, John Kasunich wrote:
...
> Make the pulleys as big as you have room for - that helps you
> three ways:
> 
> 1) the belt tension needed to transmit a given torque goes down
> 
> 2) there are more teeth engaged between belt and pulley.  That both
> increases the ability of the belt to transfer torque, and it reduces the
> possibility of slip (which could show up as backlash)
> 
> 3) if there is any movement (backlash) between belt and pulley,
> a given amount linear movement results in less angular rotation
> of the shaft.
> 
> Regarding backlash, it might help to work an example with
> numbers:
> 
> Suppose you have a 5 thread per inch ballscrew, and are 
> using a 3" diameter pulley to drive it.  The circumference of
> the pulley is 3 x pi = 9.42 inches.  It takes five revolutions
> of the pulley for the axis to move one inch.  That means 
> 5 x 9.42 = 47.12 inches of belt movement to cause one
> inch of axis movement.  So any backlash between the
> pulley and the belt is reduced by a factor of 47 before it
> gets to the axis.  If a belt tooth is 0.005" smaller than the
> groove in the pulley, then in theory the belt could slip by
> 0,005".  Divide that by 47 and you get 0.000106" at the
> ballscrew.

John, I read that last night before going to bed, again today, and I'm
going to add it to my notes. It's the good oil.

...

> One more thing - keep in mind that the rated torque of a
> stepper is at zero speed, and you can't load it to even half
> that level and expect to get much speed out of it.  If you are
> calculating your belt tension and bearing loads based on
> stepper rated torque you are being very conservative.  Most
> stepper machines run at one-fourth of the rated torque, or
> even less.

The motor torque graphs confirm what you say, but your words are easier
to understand.

Many thanks.

Erik

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what's the difference.   - Terry Pratchett, _Witches Abroad_



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[Emc-users] Spindle rpm display

[Tomaz T .]

I'm trying to make working my spindle rpm display (pyvcp), but don't know which 
signal to connect or take from my .hal file.

Here is what is in my hal file for spindle:


net spindle-enable <= motion.spindle-on => stepgen.2.enable
net spindle-cmd motion.spindle-speed-out => scale.0.in
net spindle-freq <= scale.0.out => stepgen.2.velocity-cmd
net spindle-out <= stepgen.2.step => parport.0.pin-14-out 
net spindle-fwd motion.spindle-forward => parport.0.pin-16-out


and what I have in hal for display:


addf mult2.2 servo-thread
setp mult2.2.in1 28.75
net cypher_speed mult2.2.in0 <= spindle-vfd.frequency-out
net speed_out pyvcp.spindle_rpm <= mult2.2.out


Probably spindle-vfd.frequency-out should be replaced with something from hal 
to make correct connection in my case?  
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Re: [Emc-users] Cincinnati Arrow 500 retrofit...

[Erik Christiansen]

On 15.02.13 08:08, Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> I don't know the room you have but you could mount a pillow block opposite
> the motor to support the pulley.

Thanks, Stuart, that's a very appealing idea, given the wussy motor bearing.

If I bored the pillow block slightly oversize, then the extra bearing
could perhaps be epoxied into place, with the gap-filling adhesive
setting after the motor is fully mounted.

Erik

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Pragmatist: Who cares, so long as there's more in the bottle.


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