date:20180526

On Saturday 26 May 2018 23:26:14 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 05/26/2018 10:21 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Saturday 26 May 2018 19:35:20 Ken Strauss wrote:
> >> I haven't found a North American supplier but shipping by ArcEuro
> >> only takes a few days. I recently got an ER40 square/hex pair from
> >> them. At current exchange rates 1 UKP is about us$1.14. Note, VAT
> >> does not apply to shipments to outside the EU so assume 1 pound = 1
> >> dollar.
> >
> > And this is upsetting me, my bank declined the off shore charge.
> > They've been known to use more stringent anti-fraud measures outside
> > of normal business hours or on a long holiday before. So I sit and
> > simmer till Tuesday I guess. They don't get it that I'm retired &
> > have been since the middle of 2002. I don't often wear a watch, or
> > pay attention to what day of the week it is.
>
> They may have a 24-hour fraud line that you can contact to
> OK the charge.
>
> Jon
>
They sent me an email already, scored 9.9 by spamassassin, most from 
poor, non-rfc compliant tramsmission errors. I called the number 
supplied and went thru a complex thing to verify it was me, and to 
confirm that the charge would be accepted the next time it was 
presented.

We'll see, but its about the witching hour here. I feel a nap coming 
on...

Thanks Jon.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] rotary tables, was Home switches.


On 05/26/2018 10:21 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Saturday 26 May 2018 19:35:20 Ken Strauss wrote:


I haven't found a North American supplier but shipping by ArcEuro only
takes a few days. I recently got an ER40 square/hex pair from them. At
current exchange rates 1 UKP is about us$1.14. Note, VAT does not
apply to shipments to outside the EU so assume 1 pound = 1 dollar.


And this is upsetting me, my bank declined the off shore charge.
They've been known to use more stringent anti-fraud measures outside of
normal business hours or on a long holiday before. So I sit and simmer
till Tuesday I guess. They don't get it that I'm retired & have been
since the middle of 2002. I don't often wear a watch, or pay attention
to what day of the week it is.


They may have a 24-hour fraud line that you can contact to 
OK the charge.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] rotary tables, was Home switches.

On Saturday 26 May 2018 19:35:20 Ken Strauss wrote:

> I haven't found a North American supplier but shipping by ArcEuro only
> takes a few days. I recently got an ER40 square/hex pair from them. At
> current exchange rates 1 UKP is about us$1.14. Note, VAT does not
> apply to shipments to outside the EU so assume 1 pound = 1 dollar.
>
And this is upsetting me, my bank declined the off shore charge.
They've been known to use more stringent anti-fraud measures outside of 
normal business hours or on a long holiday before. So I sit and simmer 
till Tuesday I guess. They don't get it that I'm retired & have been 
since the middle of 2002. I don't often wear a watch, or pay attention 
to what day of the week it is.

> > -Original Message-
> > From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2018 7:05 PM
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] rotary tables, was Home switches.
> >
> > On Saturday 26 May 2018 18:58:32 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Saturday 26 May 2018 18:20:14 andy pugh wrote:
> > > > On 25 May 2018 at 17:47, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > > > > Its a piece of India made 4" junk.
> > > > > Handy for facing bolt head flats,
> > > >
> > > > I tend to use these for that:
> > > > http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Collet-Fixtur
> > > >es/E R3 2-Collet-Blocks
> > >
> > > I have wished for something like that, but thats the first I've
> > > actually seen such a critter. Next time it comes up, I'll see if
> > > they ship to the middle of the US.
> > >
> > > > Much quicker to set up. Just hold the bolt in a collet and hold
> > > > the block in the machine vice.
> > > > The square one would work well for drilling grub-screw holes in
> > > > tap hats.
> > >
> > > That it would, but I've got a lashup that works most of the time
> > > now.
> > >
> > > I didn't see a price, can you venture a SWAG?
> >
> > Its there in pounds or euro's if I scroll down far enough. Looks
> > like the best deal, one of each and a nut for 33 something. Most
> > brit stuff is quite reasonable.
> >
> > > > I don't know if there is a US supplier.
> > >
> > > Thanks Andy.
> >
> > --
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > Genes Web page 
>
> --
>-- --
>
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
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-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] rotary tables, was Home switches.

On Saturday 26 May 2018 19:35:20 Ken Strauss wrote:

> I haven't found a North American supplier but shipping by ArcEuro only
> takes a few days. I recently got an ER40 square/hex pair from them. At
> current exchange rates 1 UKP is about us$1.14. Note, VAT does not
> apply to shipments to outside the EU so assume 1 pound = 1 dollar.
>
And at the diameter of these, 7/8", it will take an ER40. I have the rest 
of that kit already.

Thanks Ken.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] rotary tables, was Home switches.

2018-05-26 Thread Ken Strauss

I haven't found a North American supplier but shipping by ArcEuro only takes
a few days. I recently got an ER40 square/hex pair from them. At current
exchange rates 1 UKP is about us$1.14. Note, VAT does not apply to shipments
to outside the EU so assume 1 pound = 1 dollar.

> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2018 7:05 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] rotary tables, was Home switches.
>
> On Saturday 26 May 2018 18:58:32 Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> > On Saturday 26 May 2018 18:20:14 andy pugh wrote:
> > > On 25 May 2018 at 17:47, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > > > Its a piece of India made 4" junk.
> > > > Handy for facing bolt head flats,
> > >
> > > I tend to use these for that:
> > > http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Collet-Fixtures/E
> > >R3 2-Collet-Blocks
> >
> > I have wished for something like that, but thats the first I've
> > actually seen such a critter. Next time it comes up, I'll see if they
> > ship to the middle of the US.
> >
> > > Much quicker to set up. Just hold the bolt in a collet and hold the
> > > block in the machine vice.
> > > The square one would work well for drilling grub-screw holes in tap
> > > hats.
> >
> > That it would, but I've got a lashup that works most of the time now.
> >
> > I didn't see a price, can you venture a SWAG?
>
> Its there in pounds or euro's if I scroll down far enough. Looks like the
> best deal, one of each and a nut for 33 something. Most brit stuff is
> quite reasonable.
>  >
> > > I don't know if there is a US supplier.
> >
> > Thanks Andy.
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>

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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Emc-users] 7i90 not listed in pnc

On Sat, May 26, 2018, 06:47 andy pugh  wrote:

> On 25 May 2018 at 13:47, jeremy youngs  wrote:
>
> >> I have no idea what it is, I may just find out today .
>
> It definitely looks like an Optek logo, part number and date code
>
> https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/reflective-optical-sensors/6424301/
>
>
> These are the numbers I have , and we're my Google search , I also
> searched  8950 and just the first 4 , I got no hits.
>
optek opb568995969992

After looking at your link and I too agree it looks like optek . If I can
find this I will just replace it , I still have use for the other encoders
though .

>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
> --
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Emc-users] 7i90 not listed in pnc

On Sat, May 26, 2018, 08:04 Bengt Sjölund  wrote:

> I have used ITR8307 succesfully.
> http://www.93x57r.se/tecno-cnc/images/CNC3000/opto%20sp-speed%202.jpg
> http://www.everlight.com/file/ProductFile/ITR8307.pdf
>
>
> You are suggesting replacing the opto'd with this ? That would be a whole
> lot less of a pain and less expensive, how to align and mount it ? Epoxy?
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Re: [Emc-users] 7i90 not listed in pnc

On Thu, May 24, 2018, 00:33 Ralph Stirling 
wrote:

> I like to use Machine -> "Show Hal Configuration", which lets you see
> and set any pin, and watch pins or signals.  More convenient
> than halmeters in my opinion.  Halscope has a bit of a learning
> curve.
>
This was excellent advice thank you

>
> -- Ralph
> 
> From: jeremy youngs [jcyoung...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 8:48 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] 7i90 not listed in pnc
>
> Halmeter has blanked fields and inoperable buttons, so I cannot select
> pins.
> Halscope shows no active threads. So I cannot continue as the Hal tutorial
> shows.
>   nothread.jpg
> <
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XgtzQuH2P6SGm6Y0BNHVGNNi9EBKvXLi/view?usp=drivesdk
> >
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] rotary tables, was Home switches.

On Saturday 26 May 2018 18:58:32 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Saturday 26 May 2018 18:20:14 andy pugh wrote:
> > On 25 May 2018 at 17:47, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > > Its a piece of India made 4" junk.
> > > Handy for facing bolt head flats,
> >
> > I tend to use these for that:
> > http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Collet-Fixtures/E
> >R3 2-Collet-Blocks
>
> I have wished for something like that, but thats the first I've
> actually seen such a critter. Next time it comes up, I'll see if they
> ship to the middle of the US.
>
> > Much quicker to set up. Just hold the bolt in a collet and hold the
> > block in the machine vice.
> > The square one would work well for drilling grub-screw holes in tap
> > hats.
>
> That it would, but I've got a lashup that works most of the time now.
>
> I didn't see a price, can you venture a SWAG?

Its there in pounds or euro's if I scroll down far enough. Looks like the 
best deal, one of each and a nut for 33 something. Most brit stuff is 
quite reasonable.
 >
> > I don't know if there is a US supplier.
>
> Thanks Andy.



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] rotary tables, was Home switches.

On Saturday 26 May 2018 18:20:14 andy pugh wrote:

> On 25 May 2018 at 17:47, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Its a piece of India made 4" junk.
> > Handy for facing bolt head flats,
>
> I tend to use these for that:
> http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Collet-Fixtures/ER3
>2-Collet-Blocks
>
I have wished for something like that, but thats the first I've actually 
seen such a critter. Next time it comes up, I'll see if they ship to the 
middle of the US.

> Much quicker to set up. Just hold the bolt in a collet and hold the
> block in the machine vice.
> The square one would work well for drilling grub-screw holes in tap
> hats.

That it would, but I've got a lashup that works most of the time now.

I didn't see a price, can you venture a SWAG?

>
> I don't know if there is a US supplier.

Thanks Andy.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
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Re: [Emc-users] rotary tables, was Home switches.

On 25 May 2018 at 17:47, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Its a piece of India made 4" junk.
> Handy for facing bolt head flats,

I tend to use these for that:
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Collet-Fixtures/ER32-Collet-Blocks

Much quicker to set up. Just hold the bolt in a collet and hold the
block in the machine vice.
The square one would work well for drilling grub-screw holes in tap hats.

I don't know if there is a US supplier.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Motors

On Sat, May 26, 2018, 15:20 andy pugh  wrote:

> On 26 May 2018 at 20:49, jeremy youngs  wrote:
>
> >> I want to use one clutch and two sprags for a compact envelope 😏😏
>
> That ought to work and might be easier to package.
>
> I overhaul transmissions and have many sprags, and housings available, if
> I could figure out how to preload a planetary gear ( I'm thinking oversized
> peek pinions )

I could get great reduction and simplicity of design and less pins to
control and less moving parts, but all of my real talents won't show
through until I master this software and hardware . Then maybe I can get
too learn how to code and actually help this forum, alas I need to pay the
bills before I get that far , but I'm working on it and have great
teachers.
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Motors

On 26 May 2018 at 20:49, jeremy youngs  wrote:

>> I want to use one clutch and two sprags for a compact envelope 😏😏

That ought to work and might be easier to package.

The one-way roller clutch bearings are pretty cheap:
https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p558083/HF1012-Budget-Needle-Roller-Clutch-Type-One-Way-Bearing-10x14x12mm/product_info.html

So arrange it so that low speed drives through the bearing, and for
high-speed you engage the electromagnetic clutch and the one-way
clutch over-runs,

(The old three-speed bicycle hubs worked this way, which is why you
can hear ratchets ticking even when pedalling)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Motors


On 05/26/2018 02:35 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
The Toyota Prius-C uses a 10 HP electric DC motor and an 
electrically controlled step-less continuously variable 
transmission.
The Honda Civic hybrids also have a CVT and some kind of 
motor to run the belt up and down.

This might be a bit too large for a smaller machine tool.

Jon

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[Emc-users] Spindle Motors

2018-05-26 Thread Roland Jollivet

Depending on what ratio's you want, you could use 4 pulleys;
on the motor, big and small, pulleys stacked
on the spindle, small and big, pulleys stacked

Obviously these pairs will give you step up, step down, but you could use
other pairs, maybe 1:1 and 1:3 for step down.

Now you use two belts but both are loose. Two individual idlers will engage
either pair.
The Fadal uses this arrangement. I'm sure there are lots of pic of it.

The belts should be contained such that when they are loose, they rest away
from the pulleys.


Roland


On 26 May 2018 at 21:49, jeremy youngs  wrote:

> On Sat, May 26, 2018, 13:32 andy pugh  wrote:
>
> > On 26 May 2018 at 19:20, Jon Elson  wrote:
> >
> > > I don't know what machine you have, but some machines have stock
> retrofit
> > > kits to replace the crummy Chinese drive scheme with something using
> high
> > > performance belts.
> >
> > It isn't too hard to imagine a system using two permanently-engaged
> > different-ratio belt-drives and a couple of car air-conditioning
> > clutches to choose between them.
> >
> > I want to use one clutch and two sprags for a compact envelope 😏😏
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
> >
> >
> > 
> --
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> >
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Motors

On Sat, May 26, 2018, 13:32 andy pugh  wrote:

> On 26 May 2018 at 19:20, Jon Elson  wrote:
>
> > I don't know what machine you have, but some machines have stock retrofit
> > kits to replace the crummy Chinese drive scheme with something using high
> > performance belts.
>
> It isn't too hard to imagine a system using two permanently-engaged
> different-ratio belt-drives and a couple of car air-conditioning
> clutches to choose between them.
>
> I want to use one clutch and two sprags for a compact envelope 😏😏
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Motors

2018-05-26 Thread Chris Albertson

On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 11:31 AM, andy pugh  wrote:
> On 26 May 2018 at 19:20, Jon Elson  wrote:
>
>> I don't know what machine you have, but some machines have stock retrofit
>> kits to replace the crummy Chinese drive scheme with something using high
>> performance belts.
>
> It isn't too hard to imagine a system using two permanently-engaged
> different-ratio belt-drives and a couple of car air-conditioning
> clutches to choose between them.

Better maybe...

The Toyota Prius-C uses a 10 HP electric DC motor and an electrically
controlled step-less continuously variable transmission.  Some day
these parts will be common in junk yards

The way they do "steepless" uses two motors, one for speed control and
one for torque control and they are combined in gearbox that resembles
an automotive differential  No clutch is needed and both motors run at
the same time.  So if you are willing to use multiple motors to can
combine then so you don't need a clutch and get double the power (by
using both motors) at higher speeds

On the other hand if you are willing to install a clutch you can have
two speeds with one motor, the clutch is used to select in or out the
reduction counter shaft

If you are a true "gear head" Toyota's gearbox is a masterpiece as it
combines the power from one gas engine and two electric motors and
lets the car drive at any speed and any gear ratio with no belts or
cones and a very minimal parts count.But the complexity is just
"over the top" for use on a milling machine.

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Motors

2018-05-26 Thread John Dammeyer

Now that sounds interesting.  
John

> 
> It isn't too hard to imagine a system using two permanently-engaged
> different-ratio belt-drives and a couple of car air-conditioning
> clutches to choose between them.
> 
> --
> atp


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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Motors

On 26 May 2018 at 19:20, Jon Elson  wrote:

> I don't know what machine you have, but some machines have stock retrofit
> kits to replace the crummy Chinese drive scheme with something using high
> performance belts.

It isn't too hard to imagine a system using two permanently-engaged
different-ratio belt-drives and a couple of car air-conditioning
clutches to choose between them.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Motors


On 05/26/2018 12:08 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

That motor can produce rated torque down to near zero
speed.  But, a belt reduction INCREASES torque as you lower
spindle speed.  In some cases like heavy fly cutting, face
mills, boring, and drilling with large diameter drills, you
need that extra torque.  When I put my Bridgeport in the
lowest speed range,
the torque is increased by a factor of 22!

Jon

That's true.  Since I was wanting to also go up to 6000 for small cutter
aluminium there's no reason to not keep the spindle pulled and a motor
pulley and do away with the intermediate pulley.  I haven't looked yet but
it's quite possible the spindle pulley has the internal splines for driving
the spindle.  Wouldn't surprise me.


I don't know what machine you have, but some machines have 
stock retrofit kits to replace the crummy Chinese drive 
scheme with something using high performance belts.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Motors

2018-05-26 Thread Marcus Bowman


On 26 May 2018, at 16:13, Jon Elson wrote:

>> 
> That motor can produce rated torque down to near zero speed.  But, a belt 
> reduction INCREASES torque as you lower spindle speed.  In some cases like 
> heavy fly cutting, face mills, boring, and drilling with large diameter 
> drills, you need that extra torque.  

+1 to that. Lack of low speed torque is a real pain. IMHO belts and pulleys win 
every time, at low speeds.
On my mill I have a 2HP motor with an electronic speed control. I have a 
flycutter mounted on a 250mm/10 inch faceplate on the spindle of the mill, and 
it won't cut toffee at its properly rated cutting speed. I can see the 
electronics trying to compensate for the reduction in speed at the cutter 
bites, but the low torque just can't cope with the loss of momentum on even a 
relatively shallow cut.
On the manual lathe, with a constant speed 1425rpm 1 HP motor, the same 
flycutter on the same faceplate, and the spindle set at low speed on the 
pulleys, that cutter will mangle its way through anything at all without 
blinking or slowing. And that's without backgear.
Electronic speed control is much more convenient, especially when the speed can 
be controlled by LinuxCNC, but low speed performance is a problem, I find.
If a servo will solve that problem, I would happily fit one tomorrow.

Marcus



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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Motors

2018-05-26 Thread John Dammeyer

It's to replace the motor on this.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Vertical-Mill/G3616   
AKA FRV30 from the now defunct House of Tools in Canada.
http://www.autoartisans.com/milton.htm

And yes I'd like to be able to have spindle positioning capability.  These AC 
Servo motors are advertised as being suitable for conveyer belts which to me 
implies continuous duty.  But size 42 looks pretty small.The Mill currently 
has a top speed of 2950 and is supposed to be able to mill with a 1" cutter.  
That's what the cover plate says.

It's really not on par with a similar sized Bridgeport but a new mill of that 
size with a 2000 lb shipping weight is almost twice the price 10 years later.  

But it fits under my low ceiling in my shop which is why it's not a Bridgeport 
clone.  

John


> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: May-26-18 4:53 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Motors
> 
> On 26 May 2018 at 09:43, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > On Saturday 26 May 2018 01:24:36 John Dammeyer wrote:
> >
> >> Is something like this equivalent to a single phase 220VAC 2HP motor?
> >>
> >> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/122137567723
> >>
> >> Just thinking of how I'll add variable speed to my mill.  Would it
> >> even need a reduction set of pulleys or is 1:1 adequate?  If the
> >> bearings can handle it a belt ratio of 1:2 to get 6000 RPM?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> John
> >>
> > Just an observation John. but a setup intended to be run as a servo,
> > isn't exactly ideal for a spindle, and may overheat if asked to run
> > continuously. Servo's have time to cool in between moves.
> 
> I would expect it to have a thermistor to measure motor temperature,
> and maybe even an output from the drive to operate a cooling fan.
> 
> Geared 1:1 it would give a very good speed ratio, and would also make
> spindle-orientation trivial. It might be worth doing some calculations
> to see what cutter torque you generally work with.
> (I would have suggested using HSM Advisor for the calculations but it
> seems like the free website has been closed down and it is now a
> commercial app)
> 
> Do you already have a spindle and bearings, or were you intending to
> use the motor bearings as spindle bearings?
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
> 
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Motors

2018-05-26 Thread John Dammeyer

> That motor can produce rated torque down to near zero
> speed.  But, a belt reduction INCREASES torque as you lower
> spindle speed.  In some cases like heavy fly cutting, face
> mills, boring, and drilling with large diameter drills, you
> need that extra torque.  When I put my Bridgeport in the
> lowest speed range,
> the torque is increased by a factor of 22!
> 
> Jon
That's true.  Since I was wanting to also go up to 6000 for small cutter
aluminium there's no reason to not keep the spindle pulled and a motor
pulley and do away with the intermediate pulley.  I haven't looked yet but
it's quite possible the spindle pulley has the internal splines for driving
the spindle.  Wouldn't surprise me.

On my South Bend Heavy 10L I have a 1HP 3phase with an Automation Direct GS1
VFD.  I still switch belts and use the VFD in the mid range area.   But
flipping the belts to different speeds on the SB is much easier than it is
on the mill.  So I'd like a much better dynamic range with one motor.

John



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Re: [Emc-users] Encoders

2018-05-26 Thread Chris Albertson

On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 9:23 AM, Jon Elson  wrote:
> On 05/26/2018 10:54 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:
>>
>> I had to look up the link to see how it is possible for an encoder to
>> cause lag.   Only by not having enough resolution for low speed
>> operations
>>
> The AMT encoders use interpolation of a very low resolution basic sensor.
> They must have some kind of velocity tracking loop.  When velocity changes
> suddenly, the position of the tracking loop falls behind the actual
> position, and the loop is commanded to speed up.

Looks like I guested right, low resolution encoders require a long
sample period to avoid quantization error.

There is a solution.  You stop COUNTING encoder ticks and measure the
TIME between the ticks.  But this requires an encoder that gives acce
to the actual edges of the physical encoder disk.



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Re: [Emc-users] Encoders


On 05/26/2018 10:54 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:

I had to look up the link to see how it is possible for an encoder to
cause lag.   Only by not having enough resolution for low speed
operations

The AMT encoders use interpolation of a very low resolution 
basic sensor.  They must have some kind of velocity tracking 
loop.  When velocity changes suddenly, the position of the 
tracking loop falls behind the actual position, and the loop 
is commanded to speed up.


Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoders

On Sat, May 26, 2018, 10:54 Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> I had to look up the link to see how it is possible for an encoder to
> cause lag.   Only by not having enough resolution for low speed
> operations
>
> Did you notice the 20 week lead time and the note about problems at the
> factory?
>

I didn't see factory problems, but digikey has hundreds in stock, and they
are already in the box headed this way, we will see next week rather I am
smiling or crying lol

>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoders

2018-05-26 Thread Chris Albertson

I had to look up the link to see how it is possible for an encoder to
cause lag.   Only by not having enough resolution for low speed
operations

Did you notice the 20 week lead time and the note about problems at the factory?

On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 4:40 AM, andy pugh  wrote:
> On 25 May 2018 at 07:24, jeremy youngs  wrote:
>
>> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/CUI/AMT103-V?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsWp46O%252bq11Wc6D0rLp%252bQH%2fN7GEqDkL%2fc8%3d
>> Any thoughts? Seems like a good solution
>
> I was expecting Jon Elson to chip in. I think he found an odd
> accelleration lag with these encoders:
>
> https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-developers/thread/4DFC13BB.4020109%40pico-systems.com/#msg27669457
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
> --
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoders

On 05/26/2018 06:40 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On 25 May 2018 at 07:24, jeremy youngs wrote:

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/CUI/AMT103-V?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsWp46O%252bq11Wc6D0rLp%252bQH%2fN7GEqDkL%2fc8%3d
Any thoughts? Seems like a good solution

I was expecting Jon Elson to chip in. I think he found an odd
accelleration lag with these encoders:

https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-developers/thread/4DFC13BB.4020109%40pico-systems.com/#msg27669457

Yes, but it may not be as big a deal as I once thought.
Certainly, a lot of people have used them with Gecko 320
drives. But, yes, I rigged a motor to both an AMT103 and a
HEDS optical encoder, and fed both into encoder channels on
my PWM controller, so I could compare them sample by sample.
And, I did find a couple ms lag in response to
acceleration. Then, the AMT103 would show greater velocity
for a bit so the position could catch up.

So, it may depend a lot on the bandwidth of your servo loops
as to whether it causes any stability problems.

These encoders are CERTAINLY some of the least expensive
available. There is a little issue where the sensing rotor
can be a loose fit on the collet that fits over the shaft.
You really do NOT want the rotor to be able to rattle
around. Mariss Freimanis of Geckodrive suggests supergluing
the rotor in place.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Motors


On 05/26/2018 12:24 AM, John Dammeyer wrote:

Is something like this equivalent to a single phase 220VAC 2HP motor?

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/122137567723

Just thinking of how I'll add variable speed to my mill.  Would it even need
a reduction set of pulleys or is 1:1 adequate?  If the bearings can handle
it a belt ratio of 1:2 to get 6000 RPM?


That motor can produce rated torque down to near zero 
speed.  But, a belt reduction INCREASES torque as you lower 
spindle speed.  In some cases like heavy fly cutting, face 
mills, boring, and drilling with large diameter drills, you 
need that extra torque.  When I put my Bridgeport in the 
lowest speed range,

the torque is increased by a factor of 22!

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoders

On Saturday 26 May 2018 07:40:05 andy pugh wrote:

> On 25 May 2018 at 07:24, jeremy youngs  wrote:
> > https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/CUI/AMT103-V?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsWp46
> >O%252bq11Wc6D0rLp%252bQH%2fN7GEqDkL%2fc8%3d Any thoughts? Seems like
> > a good solution
>
> I was expecting Jon Elson to chip in. I think he found an odd
> accelleration lag with these encoders:
>
> https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-developers/thread/4DFC13BB.4
>020109%40pico-systems.com/#msg27669457

I vaguely remember that thread, 2-4 years ago, thank you for the reminder 
and link. All of my home-made efforts have been magnetic (ats667's in 
the sheldon lathe watching its 60 tooth main gear, but no PID's, just 
feedback for rigid tapping), or opto-interrupters in the others. This 
Omron was not mentioned in that thread, perhaps its newer? But it seems 
to be far smoother at controlling a motor, so much so that on the mill, 
I have used Pgains of 40 in its PID, whereas with the combined 
mechanical errors and such of the home made opticals, Pgain was very 
limited, 3 maximum, and even then the quantization noise was hammering 
the gear teeth in the g0704's head, making it sound like every bearing 
in the head was hammered flat. The difference in the noise level when 
running is amazing. Below 500 rpms, I have to look at the spindle nose 
or tool to verify its running, its that quiet.

Its self contained, so I have no clue what technology is used internally, 
and its just over a $20 bill on ebay. Perhaps someone could do similar 
tests on one of those. I am, for just small change, very impressed with 
the single such device I have.  Its made a whole new machine out of a 
noisy rattle-trap. But because it is not on the spindle, its on the back 
of the motor, I am using only its a/b outputs, the index is still coming 
from the home-made opto-interruptor that is on the spindle.

off-topic bragging, I have some switches on the gearshift knob and some 
hal magic to correct for the gear changes of coarse. And I made use of 
that to add a setp to the neither switch closed state so the motor is 
turning at about 20 rpm's when the gear is in neutral but is supposed to 
be running. I can reach up and change gears at 1400 revs, its down to 
about 20 motor shaft rpm's long before the gear is disengaged, and 
because the motor is turning, the next gear engages silently, bringing 
the motor back to selected speed when the switch closes, indicating full 
engagement. None of the grab the spindle and turn it by hand coaxing the 
gears to re-engage.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoders

On Sat, May 26, 2018, 06:41 andy pugh  wrote:

> On 25 May 2018 at 07:24, jeremy youngs  wrote:
>
> >
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/CUI/AMT103-V?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsWp46O%252bq11Wc6D0rLp%252bQH%2fN7GEqDkL%2fc8%3d
> > Any thoughts? Seems like a good solution
>
> I was expecting Jon Elson to chip in. I think he found an odd
> accelleration lag with these encoders:
>
>
> https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-developers/thread/4DFC13BB.4020109%40pico-systems.com/#msg27669457
>
>
> Maybe I should have been more patient, but they are on their way , and I'm
> soon to find out.
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] 7i90 not listed in pnc

2018-05-26 Thread Bengt Sjölund


I have used ITR8307 succesfully.
http://www.93x57r.se/tecno-cnc/images/CNC3000/opto%20sp-speed%202.jpg
http://www.everlight.com/file/ProductFile/ITR8307.pdf


Den 2018-05-26 kl. 13:46, skrev andy pugh:

On 25 May 2018 at 13:47, jeremy youngs  wrote:


I have no idea what it is, I may just find out today .

It definitely looks like an Optek logo, part number and date code

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/reflective-optical-sensors/6424301/





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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Motors

On 26 May 2018 at 09:43, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> On Saturday 26 May 2018 01:24:36 John Dammeyer wrote:
>
>> Is something like this equivalent to a single phase 220VAC 2HP motor?
>>
>> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/122137567723
>>
>> Just thinking of how I'll add variable speed to my mill.  Would it
>> even need a reduction set of pulleys or is 1:1 adequate?  If the
>> bearings can handle it a belt ratio of 1:2 to get 6000 RPM?
>>
>> Thanks
>> John
>>
> Just an observation John. but a setup intended to be run as a servo,
> isn't exactly ideal for a spindle, and may overheat if asked to run
> continuously. Servo's have time to cool in between moves.

I would expect it to have a thermistor to measure motor temperature,
and maybe even an output from the drive to operate a cooling fan.

Geared 1:1 it would give a very good speed ratio, and would also make
spindle-orientation trivial. It might be worth doing some calculations
to see what cutter torque you generally work with.
(I would have suggested using HSM Advisor for the calculations but it
seems like the free website has been closed down and it is now a
commercial app)

Do you already have a spindle and bearings, or were you intending to
use the motor bearings as spindle bearings?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] 7i90 not listed in pnc

On 25 May 2018 at 13:47, jeremy youngs  wrote:

>> I have no idea what it is, I may just find out today .

It definitely looks like an Optek logo, part number and date code

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/reflective-optical-sensors/6424301/


-- 
atp
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designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoders

On 25 May 2018 at 07:24, jeremy youngs  wrote:

> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/CUI/AMT103-V?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsWp46O%252bq11Wc6D0rLp%252bQH%2fN7GEqDkL%2fc8%3d
> Any thoughts? Seems like a good solution

I was expecting Jon Elson to chip in. I think he found an odd
accelleration lag with these encoders:

https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-developers/thread/4DFC13BB.4020109%40pico-systems.com/#msg27669457

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Spindle Motors