Re: [Emc-users] problem with tap tip profiles

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 01 June 2018 16:44:25 andy pugh wrote:

> On 1 June 2018 at 21:06, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > The only way I can see to fix it, requires a calibration per tap,
>
> I think I would have already tapped them all by hand.
>
> But then I nearly always do, I don't think I have rigid-tapped more
> than half a dozen times.

While I expect I have tapped 2x the holes by rigid tapping that I have 
done in the last 5 years, than I have tapped by hand in the previous 70.
The work flow is to drill the hole for the taps shank, which may involve 
checking half the drill bits on hand to find one that is between the 
exact shank diameter and perhap .010mm smaller, and sharpen it if its 
needed. Put in the chuck mounted on the mills bed toward the right end 
of the bed. Put a slug upside down in the 7/8" R8, take the table to 
187.003mmsX and around .340mm'sY. Bring the head down at 40mm's till it 
throws the first flake of brass, set the  jog slider down to .2mm/minute 
and let it gnaw a pretty well centered dimple in the brass. Run the jog 
up to 60mm's or so and run it down until I hear it go by the end of the 
keying bolt in the other end of the slug. Run it up the post 200mm's and 
test the taps fit in the resultant bore. If so tight it won't go, get 
the next bigger bit and ream it out a bit. This part may take 5 minutes.

Remove the slug from the spindle and put in the R8 chucked in the table 
as the A axis. Remove the 7/8" R8 and put a 3/4 back in the spindle, and 
put the tap drill in it. Edit the 2 or 3 vars at the top of the file to 
make it drill the 4 holes. Move the table to the right a bit or remove 
the drill from the table mounted chuck to keep the two drills from 
hitting each other, and hit r. Grab a 17mm wrench and hold down on the 
slug to keep it from grabbing the slug as it holes thru into the shank 
bore each time. In the meantime its making odd motions as it restores 
the machine to a power up and homed state, then it runs over to the 
contact pad and does a g38.1 at 160mm/minute to find out how long this 
drill is. Applies a G92 Z[offset], runs it back above the work and 
returns from the subroutine call, then moves to the holes location, runs 
A to -10 and back to zero, drops the bit to a sheet of paper above the 
work having started the spindle at 1k revs a move or so back. Goes down 
at 2mm's for 1.5mm, which allows the bit to get itself centered, then 
ups the feed to 40mm and completes the hole, with me holding the slug 
with an endwrench straddling the bit. Back it up far enough to clear and 
drive the A table to 90 degrees. Wash, rinse and repeat till the table 
has been to 270 degrees. Run head up out of the way. This is perhaps 3 
minutes.

Change the drill for the tap, blow all the brass off the contact and tap, 
and tell the gcode its tapping this time. Give it a squirt of tapmagic 
or buttercutt. hit r.

The sub re-finds everything, and once the tap has been measured, runs it 
over to the hole, taps the hole, backs up enough to clear, runs the 
table to 90 degrees, tap that hole, wash rinse and repeat 2 more times, 
run it way up the post and reset the A to zero degrees. Another 4 
minutes. 

Install grub screws and tap, 3 minutesmax unless the tap is too tight a 
fit and has to be hammered in, take it out to a table in front of the 
garage and stamp the bottom face of the slug with this taps size and 
tpmm.

So once I've put the slug in the spindle, its perhaps 20 minutes by the 
time its stamped and dropped in the storage box.  And my wrists aren't 
tired from cranking on a tap handle. Nor did I break a tap. BTDT, way 
too many times in my 83 years.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoders

[Chris Albertson]

Yes, they have Mac, Linux and Windows version of the software.  Closed
source but free from Saleae.  The $8 clone is just a tiny uP that reads 8
input pins really fast and puts the data on USB.   Al the smarts is in the
software.

Saleae makes some really nice ones that use the same software but have more
pins and faster pins and can handle more different voltage levels.

One thing that modern logic analyzers can do that scope can't is trigger on
data.




Sigrok looks good but I don't use it much, just checked it out a little.
The Saleae software is so easy to use you don't need a user manual.



On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 10:52 AM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Friday 01 June 2018 12:32:09 Chris Albertson wrote:
>
> > On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 5:38 PM, Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
> > > On Thursday 31 May 2018 19:45:24 jeremy youngs wrote:
> > > > Encoders in hand, shaft turned and mounted, it looks good, 3 more
> > > > to do . encoderawcount.jpg
> > > >  > > >/vie w?usp=drivesdk>
> > >
> > > That does look pretty good at first glance. I can't read the
> > > clocking rate though. Humm, I just found the viewer has a zoom. So I
> > > assume you were turning it by hand as the timing shows 2/1
> > > variations on a 10 millisecond per grid line, so thats pretty slow.
> > > What it looks like at 3 to 5k revs will tell the story. But you are
> > > not going to get that display at 3 to 5k in halscope. That will need
> > > a good scope,
> >
> > Scopes are good, they will let yu find glitches like housing contacts
> > but optical encoders don't have that problem
> >
> > Last night I was using by cheap $8 logic analyzer.   Those things are
> > good for the money I could measure the duty cycle of a  two 10KHz PWM
> > signals and the A/B channels for two encoders and
> > ...ebay.com/itm/New-USB-Logic-Analyzer-...
> >  >24MHz-8CH-24MHz-for-ARM-FPGA-M100/222882469206>
> >
> > Yes they make better ones but those cost more than $8   This is one
> > good for signals that change at up to a few MHz.
> >
> I'd have to assume it displays the results on your computer screen, and
> runs on linux?
>
> Rather neat if thats the case, I might have to get me one.
>
> Thanks Chris.
>
> > > --
> >
> > Chris Albertson
> > Redondo Beach, California
> > --
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
> > most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>



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Re: [Emc-users] problem with tap tip profiles

[andy pugh]

On 1 June 2018 at 21:06, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> The only way I can see to fix it, requires a calibration per tap,

I think I would have already tapped them all by hand.

But then I nearly always do, I don't think I have rigid-tapped more
than half a dozen times.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoders

[Chris Albertson]

The device is a clone of the Saleae analyzer so it works with their software
https://www.saleae.com/downloads/

There is also some open source software that works with it
https://sigrok.org/wiki/Main_Page

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Greg Bernard  wrote:

> Interesting. What software do you use with that?
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Chris Albertson <
> albertson.ch...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 5:38 PM, Gene Heskett 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Thursday 31 May 2018 19:45:24 jeremy youngs wrote:
> > >
> > > > Encoders in hand, shaft turned and mounted, it looks good, 3 more to
> > > > do . encoderawcount.jpg
> > > >  ZzVBCtBkDbsFxwydN_/vie
> > > >w?usp=drivesdk>
> > >
> > > That does look pretty good at first glance. I can't read the clocking
> > > rate though. Humm, I just found the viewer has a zoom. So I assume you
> > > were turning it by hand as the timing shows 2/1 variations on a 10
> > > millisecond per grid line, so thats pretty slow. What it looks like at
> 3
> > > to 5k revs will tell the story. But you are not going to get that
> > > display at 3 to 5k in halscope. That will need a good scope,
> > >
> >
> > Scopes are good, they will let yu find glitches like housing contacts but
> > optical encoders don't have that problem
> >
> > Last night I was using by cheap $8 logic analyzer.   Those things are
> good
> > for the money I could measure the duty cycle of a  two 10KHz PWM signals
> > and the A/B channels for two encoders and
> > ...ebay.com/itm/New-USB-Logic-Analyzer-...
> >  > USB-Cable-24MHz-8CH-24MHz-for-ARM-FPGA-M100/222882469206>
> >
> > Yes they make better ones but those cost more than $8   This is one good
> > for signals that change at up to a few MHz.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --
> >
> > Chris Albertson
> > Redondo Beach, California
> > 
> > --
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
>
>
> --
> "Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world
> is either a madman or an economist."
> -Kenneth Boulding, economist
> Corporations are NOT people and money is NOT speech!
> 
> --
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>



-- 

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Re: [Emc-users] problem with tap tip profiles

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 01 June 2018 14:46:52 jeremy youngs wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018, 13:20 Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Greetings everybody;
> >
> > I have the grub screw bore & tap working except for on glareing
> > problem. I am using g38.2 to measure both the length of the drill,
> > and the tap, and I had set the depth of the tap so it went a little
> > into the opposing hole on the other side of the hat, and still left
> > some taper at the end of the threads I could feel the grub screws
> > cutting into for the last half turn to tight on the taps square
> > butt.
> >
> > But I just chose to use a 5 or 6mm tap with a square end, for blind
> > holes I assume. It working from the g38.2 measured length, went on
> > thru to the other hole and totalled the threads at the bottom of the
> > opposing hole. Diagnosing that I needed to stop it at least 2.5mm
> > quicker, I put the 6mmx1 tap in the machine, also a square ended
> > tap, and found the threads were usable but had to get froggy with
> > the wrench torque to get past the tight spot at the bottom of the
> > hole. This after I had reduced the g33.1 Z by 2.25mm.
> >
> > So, since I'm measuring the mounted tap at its tip, is there any
> > quick way to make my code compensate for the taps tip profile?
> >
> > Or do I add another var next to the tpmm to be added to the stroke,
> > possibly by calipering the tap tip from the tip to the first active
> > thread?
> >
> > IOW, how do you folks deal with this?
> >
> > Thanks for any thoughts.
>
> I drill my pilot hole 80% of the minor diameter deeper , unless the
> print doesn't allow for it,

Whats a print? ;-) The only place a picture of this exists is in my 
head. :)

> I then add the measured length of the tip 
> of the tap to my tool length and make a few test holes, adjusting tool
> length offset in the table until I get the desired results.

That also shifts the starting point, which shifts the thread. By 
adjusting only the stop point at the bottom, I can repeat it in the same 
hole w/o mucking up the threads already cut. I don't make a lot of scrap 
that way. :)

The only way I can see to fix it, requires a calibration per tap, and 
some way to track/id that tap. These aren't in the tool.tbl yet, and 
thats why I was asking for a bigger table a week or so back.  Or measure 
and mark each tap and stamp it on the face of the hat like the size & 
tpmm is now. Thats not impossible, and may be the best way to keep it 
from getting lost.

Thanks Jeremy.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] problem with tap tip profiles

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 01 June 2018 14:45:15 andy pugh wrote:

> On 1 June 2018 at 19:20, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > IOW, how do you folks deal with this?
>
> Why not do two holes in one operation? They are opposite each other,
> aren't they?

Yes but most of the smaller taps aren't long enough to reach all the way 
through. It would be for the 6mm on up I believe.

The brass slugs are 7/8" in diameter. And thats the only size of R8 I 
modified to key the slug. I'd also have to drill an overshoot hole in 
the poplar bearing the slug is turning in. Thats no big deal though. 
However, I think I'd have to re-arrange that forest of steel trees 
sticking up out of the table if I was to go down another 12 or 13mm's. I 
only have one of those clamp kits in the red plastic holder you've seen 
a kajillion of, and ran out of bolts and skirted nuts.


Thanks Andy.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] problem with tap tip profiles

[jeremy youngs]

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018, 13:46 andy pugh  wrote:

> On 1 June 2018 at 19:20, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
> > IOW, how do you folks deal with this?
>
> Why not do two holes in one operation? They are opposite each other,
> aren't they?
>
> I didn't catch this, I agree do em straight through in one shot .
>
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
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Re: [Emc-users] problem with tap tip profiles

[jeremy youngs]

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018, 13:20 Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Greetings everybody;
>
> I have the grub screw bore & tap working except for on glareing problem.
> I am using g38.2 to measure both the length of the drill, and the tap,
> and I had set the depth of the tap so it went a little into the opposing
> hole on the other side of the hat, and still left some taper at the end
> of the threads I could feel the grub screws cutting into for the last
> half turn to tight on the taps square butt.
>
> But I just chose to use a 5 or 6mm tap with a square end, for blind holes
> I assume. It working from the g38.2 measured length, went on thru to the
> other hole and totalled the threads at the bottom of the opposing hole.
> Diagnosing that I needed to stop it at least 2.5mm quicker, I put the
> 6mmx1 tap in the machine, also a square ended tap, and found the threads
> were usable but had to get froggy with the wrench torque to get past the
> tight spot at the bottom of the hole. This after I had reduced the g33.1
> Z by 2.25mm.
>
> So, since I'm measuring the mounted tap at its tip, is there any quick
> way to make my code compensate for the taps tip profile?
>
> Or do I add another var next to the tpmm to be added to the stroke,
> possibly by calipering the tap tip from the tip to the first active
> thread?
>
> IOW, how do you folks deal with this?
>
> Thanks for any thoughts.
>

I drill my pilot hole 80% of the minor diameter deeper , unless the print
doesn't allow for it, I then add the measured length of the tip of the tap
to my tool length and make a few test holes, adjusting tool length offset
in the table until I get the desired results.

>
> --
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
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Re: [Emc-users] problem with tap tip profiles

[andy pugh]

On 1 June 2018 at 19:20, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> IOW, how do you folks deal with this?

Why not do two holes in one operation? They are opposite each other,
aren't they?


-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

--
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[Emc-users] problem with tap tip profiles

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings everybody;

I have the grub screw bore & tap working except for on glareing problem.
I am using g38.2 to measure both the length of the drill, and the tap,
and I had set the depth of the tap so it went a little into the opposing 
hole on the other side of the hat, and still left some taper at the end 
of the threads I could feel the grub screws cutting into for the last 
half turn to tight on the taps square butt.

But I just chose to use a 5 or 6mm tap with a square end, for blind holes 
I assume. It working from the g38.2 measured length, went on thru to the 
other hole and totalled the threads at the bottom of the opposing hole. 
Diagnosing that I needed to stop it at least 2.5mm quicker, I put the 
6mmx1 tap in the machine, also a square ended tap, and found the threads 
were usable but had to get froggy with the wrench torque to get past the 
tight spot at the bottom of the hole. This after I had reduced the g33.1 
Z by 2.25mm.

So, since I'm measuring the mounted tap at its tip, is there any quick 
way to make my code compensate for the taps tip profile?

Or do I add another var next to the tpmm to be added to the stroke, 
possibly by calipering the tap tip from the tip to the first active 
thread?

IOW, how do you folks deal with this?

Thanks for any thoughts.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoders

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 01 June 2018 12:32:09 Chris Albertson wrote:

> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 5:38 PM, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Thursday 31 May 2018 19:45:24 jeremy youngs wrote:
> > > Encoders in hand, shaft turned and mounted, it looks good, 3 more
> > > to do . encoderawcount.jpg
> > >  > >/vie w?usp=drivesdk>
> >
> > That does look pretty good at first glance. I can't read the
> > clocking rate though. Humm, I just found the viewer has a zoom. So I
> > assume you were turning it by hand as the timing shows 2/1
> > variations on a 10 millisecond per grid line, so thats pretty slow.
> > What it looks like at 3 to 5k revs will tell the story. But you are
> > not going to get that display at 3 to 5k in halscope. That will need
> > a good scope,
>
> Scopes are good, they will let yu find glitches like housing contacts
> but optical encoders don't have that problem
>
> Last night I was using by cheap $8 logic analyzer.   Those things are
> good for the money I could measure the duty cycle of a  two 10KHz PWM
> signals and the A/B channels for two encoders and
> ...ebay.com/itm/New-USB-Logic-Analyzer-...
> 24MHz-8CH-24MHz-for-ARM-FPGA-M100/222882469206>
>
> Yes they make better ones but those cost more than $8   This is one
> good for signals that change at up to a few MHz.
>
I'd have to assume it displays the results on your computer screen, and 
runs on linux?

Rather neat if thats the case, I might have to get me one.

Thanks Chris.

> > --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
> most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
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-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Encoders

[Greg Bernard]

Interesting. What software do you use with that?


On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 5:38 PM, Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
>
> > On Thursday 31 May 2018 19:45:24 jeremy youngs wrote:
> >
> > > Encoders in hand, shaft turned and mounted, it looks good, 3 more to
> > > do . encoderawcount.jpg
> > >  > >w?usp=drivesdk>
> >
> > That does look pretty good at first glance. I can't read the clocking
> > rate though. Humm, I just found the viewer has a zoom. So I assume you
> > were turning it by hand as the timing shows 2/1 variations on a 10
> > millisecond per grid line, so thats pretty slow. What it looks like at 3
> > to 5k revs will tell the story. But you are not going to get that
> > display at 3 to 5k in halscope. That will need a good scope,
> >
>
> Scopes are good, they will let yu find glitches like housing contacts but
> optical encoders don't have that problem
>
> Last night I was using by cheap $8 logic analyzer.   Those things are good
> for the money I could measure the duty cycle of a  two 10KHz PWM signals
> and the A/B channels for two encoders and
> ...ebay.com/itm/New-USB-Logic-Analyzer-...
>  USB-Cable-24MHz-8CH-24MHz-for-ARM-FPGA-M100/222882469206>
>
> Yes they make better ones but those cost more than $8   This is one good
> for signals that change at up to a few MHz.
>
>
> >
> > --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Encoders

[Chris Albertson]

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 5:38 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Thursday 31 May 2018 19:45:24 jeremy youngs wrote:
>
> > Encoders in hand, shaft turned and mounted, it looks good, 3 more to
> > do . encoderawcount.jpg
> >  >w?usp=drivesdk>
>
> That does look pretty good at first glance. I can't read the clocking
> rate though. Humm, I just found the viewer has a zoom. So I assume you
> were turning it by hand as the timing shows 2/1 variations on a 10
> millisecond per grid line, so thats pretty slow. What it looks like at 3
> to 5k revs will tell the story. But you are not going to get that
> display at 3 to 5k in halscope. That will need a good scope,
>

Scopes are good, they will let yu find glitches like housing contacts but
optical encoders don't have that problem

Last night I was using by cheap $8 logic analyzer.   Those things are good
for the money I could measure the duty cycle of a  two 10KHz PWM signals
and the A/B channels for two encoders and
...ebay.com/itm/New-USB-Logic-Analyzer-...


Yes they make better ones but those cost more than $8   This is one good
for signals that change at up to a few MHz.


>
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Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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