Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 14 October 2021 01:50:44 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Absolutely no idea.  Just wanted to have a smile cross your face.  I
> hope it did. John
>
That you did.

Thank you.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[John Dammeyer]

Absolutely no idea.  Just wanted to have a smile cross your face.  I hope it 
did.
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: October-13-21 10:35 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> 
> On Thursday 14 October 2021 01:22:19 John Dammeyer wrote:
> 
> > Gene,
> > You've been so helpful in the past I thought I'd pass the attached
> > round tuit on to you. John
> >
> Thanks John. Is that copyrighted? I've a bar of alu I've been threatening
> to make some coins like that from, but everything I have found is
> copyrighted.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 14 October 2021 01:22:19 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Gene,
> You've been so helpful in the past I thought I'd pass the attached
> round tuit on to you. John
>
Thanks John. Is that copyrighted? I've a bar of alu I've been threatening 
to make some coins like that from, but everything I have found is 
copyrighted.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[John Dammeyer]

Gene,
You've been so helpful in the past I thought I'd pass the attached round tuit 
on to you.
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: October-13-21 9:42 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> 
> On Wednesday 13 October 2021 21:09:54 Chris Albertson wrote:
> 
> > You are right, but under all conditions, the resistor connecting the
> > wire to ground through a diode has lower impedance than the same wire
> > terminated at a transistor gate as was the case before.  The proof is
> > that it works now.
> >
> > The other thing was thinking is that it should be simple to use
> > software to filter out a ghost pulse from an encoder.  After all, we
> > know that it can only happen once per revolution.   We could look at
> > the counter that racks A/B quadrature pulses and know it is is time
> > for an index. Software could do this even with no configuration by
> > spinning the shaft.   In fact verifying that the index pulse always
> > happens at the expected time is a great way to error-check that no
> > counts were dropped or added.   It would be a great self-dignostic.
> 
> I think I have the bones of such in at least 2 of my .hal files already.
> 
> In order to establish the "SCALE" for this or that, I put in a method to
> measure 100 occurances of an index, and calculating that SCALE factor by
> recording the encoder count at the 3rd index, then recordiing the count
> at the 103rd index, and dividing that resultant difference by 100. I've
> done that three times now on the G0704, once for the two gears of the
> spindle, and then for the BS-1 as an A axis. That essentially same hal
> circuit could be used to gate the index, allowing an index to enter only
> if the difference says its due to occur. I used a different math in the
> A case because the figure I wanted is exactly a degree, not a 360 degree
> turn.
> 
> This code works well in either case. I will use that same hal construct
> to calibrate the A on my 6040 when I take the A axis currently on the
> kitchen counter with my harmonic drive mounted on it, back to the 6040
> and re-install it. The OEM version was 100x faster than it needed to be,
> and had virtually no holding power. I made the harmonic drive as a 30/1
> but practicality says I should redo it as a 20/1, its a bit slow because
> the belt drive ratio is 21 to 83 in addition to the the 30/1 in the
> drive. More teeth on the output pulley might find me a tight enough belt
> to not need an idler as there virtually no place to put it that is now
> rigid enough. The belt problem is that they are not made in arbitrary
> sizes. So I should obtain the next longer belt, and expand the output
> pulley tooth count until its tight enough w/o an idler as the shaft
> separation is not adjustable.
> 
> That project is waiting for me to find my round tuit and print a belt
> tensioning idler bracket that does work. Or adjust as described above.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 13 October 2021 21:09:54 Chris Albertson wrote:

> You are right, but under all conditions, the resistor connecting the
> wire to ground through a diode has lower impedance than the same wire
> terminated at a transistor gate as was the case before.  The proof is
> that it works now.
>
> The other thing was thinking is that it should be simple to use
> software to filter out a ghost pulse from an encoder.  After all, we
> know that it can only happen once per revolution.   We could look at
> the counter that racks A/B quadrature pulses and know it is is time
> for an index. Software could do this even with no configuration by
> spinning the shaft.   In fact verifying that the index pulse always
> happens at the expected time is a great way to error-check that no
> counts were dropped or added.   It would be a great self-dignostic.

I think I have the bones of such in at least 2 of my .hal files already.

In order to establish the "SCALE" for this or that, I put in a method to 
measure 100 occurances of an index, and calculating that SCALE factor by 
recording the encoder count at the 3rd index, then recordiing the count 
at the 103rd index, and dividing that resultant difference by 100. I've 
done that three times now on the G0704, once for the two gears of the 
spindle, and then for the BS-1 as an A axis. That essentially same hal 
circuit could be used to gate the index, allowing an index to enter only 
if the difference says its due to occur. I used a different math in the 
A case because the figure I wanted is exactly a degree, not a 360 degree 
turn.

This code works well in either case. I will use that same hal construct 
to calibrate the A on my 6040 when I take the A axis currently on the 
kitchen counter with my harmonic drive mounted on it, back to the 6040 
and re-install it. The OEM version was 100x faster than it needed to be, 
and had virtually no holding power. I made the harmonic drive as a 30/1 
but practicality says I should redo it as a 20/1, its a bit slow because 
the belt drive ratio is 21 to 83 in addition to the the 30/1 in the 
drive. More teeth on the output pulley might find me a tight enough belt 
to not need an idler as there virtually no place to put it that is now 
rigid enough. The belt problem is that they are not made in arbitrary 
sizes. So I should obtain the next longer belt, and expand the output 
pulley tooth count until its tight enough w/o an idler as the shaft 
separation is not adjustable.

That project is waiting for me to find my round tuit and print a belt 
tensioning idler bracket that does work. Or adjust as described above.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Chris Albertson]

Differential drive is always the best solution, look at Ethernet. It can
push 100 megabit over a kilometer using unshielded cable.

But single ended signals can be noise resistant if the wire uses resistive
termination.  The opto-isolator is proving resistive termination.



On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 6:43 PM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> Hi Chris,
> When I developed my ELS for 1PPR one of the criteria was that the index
> vane or slot had to be wide enough so that it would generate a pulse at
> least about 5 or so  50uS ticks wide and at least again that wide for the
> non index period.  That the tick count would then be at least about 500 uS
> per rev.  That's a frequency of 2000 Hz in minutes 120,000 RPM.  Very
> unlikely an old surplus lathe can run that fast.
>
> A lathe like a small Unimat DB-200 could run 8100 RPM which is a 135 RPS
> or a period of about 7.4mS.  If the index pulse slot is 250uS the non index
> pulse time is 0.00715mS or about 143 ticks.  So it's pretty easy to expect
> the index pulse to be active for 3 ticks or 150uS.  Most noise is much
> larger than that.
>
> For a system where there are spurious index pulses or noise, and the
> HPCL2631 solution I proposed wasn't possible, I'd be tempted to add a
> 1-shot pulse extender right at the encoder to create a longer index pulse.
> Once again debouncing that in software (or hardware with a counter that
> verifies low for X clocks) creates a reliable index.
>
> Since Peter's encoder had push pull outputs and a drive capability of at
> least 10mA it made sense to go high speed optical.  If it wasn't and had
> simple TTL output then I'd have suggested adding high speed differential
> drivers like the AM26LS31CN which has 4 channels.  See attached schematic.
>
> A differential receiver at the other end and using twisted pair 100Ohm
> impedance wire with 100 ohm resistors at both ends creates a nice balanced
> transmission line more immune to interference.
>
> John Dammeyer
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: October-13-21 6:10 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> >
> > You are right, but under all conditions, the resistor connecting the wire
> > to ground through a diode has lower impedance than the same wire
> terminated
> > at a transistor gate as was the case before.  The proof is that it works
> > now.
> >
> > The other thing was thinking is that it should be simple to use software
> to
> > filter out a ghost pulse from an encoder.  After all, we know that it can
> > only happen once per revolution.   We could look at the counter that
> racks
> > A/B quadrature pulses and know it is is time for an index. Software
> > could do this even with no configuration by spinning the shaft.   In fact
> > verifying that the index pulse always happens at the expected time is a
> > great why to error-check that no counts were dropped or added.   It would
> > be a great self-dignostic.
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 4:11 PM John Dammeyer 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > To fair we need to use the word low resistance path to ground.  The
> > > impedance of the wiring at 300kHz where electrical noise might exist
> from a
> > > VFD may be considerably higher.
> > >
> > > Think of the basic electronics of an inductor and capacitor in
> parallel.
> > > At DC the resistance and impedance is the coil resistance to ground.
>   At
> > > ultra high frequencies the reactance of the capacitor is likely so low
> that
> > > it's also a short circuit to ground.  And in-between somewhere at some
> > > frequency the pair are in resonance and the 'impendance' can be very
> high.
> > >
> > > The wire from the encoder to the electronics has inductance,
> especially if
> > > coiled up and there is capacitance per foot/meter rating on various
> > > cables.  It may or may not be important depending on the noise
> frequency.
> > >
> > > John Dammeyer
> > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > > > Sent: October-13-21 3:51 PM
> > > > To: phodg...@uk22.net; Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> > > >
> > > > Then this proves the cause.  The isolators provide a low impedance
> path
> > > to
> > > > ground.  It is just current-limiting resistor and a forward-biased
> diode.
> > > >  With this low impedance to ground there is no way for EMI to cause
> the
> > > > voltage on the wire to raise.
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 1:40 PM Peter Hodgson <
> > > peterjohnhodg...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well!
> > > > >
> > > > > A quick update for those that are interested.
> > > > >
> > > > > The HPCL2631's won the postal race and arrived in the mail today.
> > > > >
> > > > > I made up a little 'interface' board to mount them on with the pull
> > > ups,
> > > > > caps, etc. and fitted that bo

Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Chris,
When I developed my ELS for 1PPR one of the criteria was that the index vane or 
slot had to be wide enough so that it would generate a pulse at least about 5 
or so  50uS ticks wide and at least again that wide for the non index period.  
That the tick count would then be at least about 500 uS per rev.  That's a 
frequency of 2000 Hz in minutes 120,000 RPM.  Very unlikely an old surplus 
lathe can run that fast.

A lathe like a small Unimat DB-200 could run 8100 RPM which is a 135 RPS or a 
period of about 7.4mS.  If the index pulse slot is 250uS the non index pulse 
time is 0.00715mS or about 143 ticks.  So it's pretty easy to expect the index 
pulse to be active for 3 ticks or 150uS.  Most noise is much larger than that.

For a system where there are spurious index pulses or noise, and the HPCL2631 
solution I proposed wasn't possible, I'd be tempted to add a 1-shot pulse 
extender right at the encoder to create a longer index pulse.  Once again 
debouncing that in software (or hardware with a counter that verifies low for X 
clocks) creates a reliable index.  

Since Peter's encoder had push pull outputs and a drive capability of at least 
10mA it made sense to go high speed optical.  If it wasn't and had simple TTL 
output then I'd have suggested adding high speed differential drivers like the 
AM26LS31CN which has 4 channels.  See attached schematic.

A differential receiver at the other end and using twisted pair 100Ohm 
impedance wire with 100 ohm resistors at both ends creates a nice balanced 
transmission line more immune to interference.

John Dammeyer


> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: October-13-21 6:10 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> 
> You are right, but under all conditions, the resistor connecting the wire
> to ground through a diode has lower impedance than the same wire terminated
> at a transistor gate as was the case before.  The proof is that it works
> now.
> 
> The other thing was thinking is that it should be simple to use software to
> filter out a ghost pulse from an encoder.  After all, we know that it can
> only happen once per revolution.   We could look at the counter that racks
> A/B quadrature pulses and know it is is time for an index. Software
> could do this even with no configuration by spinning the shaft.   In fact
> verifying that the index pulse always happens at the expected time is a
> great why to error-check that no counts were dropped or added.   It would
> be a great self-dignostic.
> 
> On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 4:11 PM John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> 
> > To fair we need to use the word low resistance path to ground.  The
> > impedance of the wiring at 300kHz where electrical noise might exist from a
> > VFD may be considerably higher.
> >
> > Think of the basic electronics of an inductor and capacitor in parallel.
> > At DC the resistance and impedance is the coil resistance to ground.At
> > ultra high frequencies the reactance of the capacitor is likely so low that
> > it's also a short circuit to ground.  And in-between somewhere at some
> > frequency the pair are in resonance and the 'impendance' can be very high.
> >
> > The wire from the encoder to the electronics has inductance, especially if
> > coiled up and there is capacitance per foot/meter rating on various
> > cables.  It may or may not be important depending on the noise frequency.
> >
> > John Dammeyer
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: October-13-21 3:51 PM
> > > To: phodg...@uk22.net; Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> > >
> > > Then this proves the cause.  The isolators provide a low impedance path
> > to
> > > ground.  It is just current-limiting resistor and a forward-biased diode.
> > >  With this low impedance to ground there is no way for EMI to cause the
> > > voltage on the wire to raise.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 1:40 PM Peter Hodgson <
> > peterjohnhodg...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Well!
> > > >
> > > > A quick update for those that are interested.
> > > >
> > > > The HPCL2631's won the postal race and arrived in the mail today.
> > > >
> > > > I made up a little 'interface' board to mount them on with the pull
> > ups,
> > > > caps, etc. and fitted that board this evenening.
> > > >
> > > > After an initial check on the index pulse I ran my G76 program (in air)
> > > > for the M47 x 3.0 thread, that as giving me so much trouble, whilst
> > > > watching Halscope for the encoder index and I didn't see one ghost
> > > > pulse. I did see one that was missing over the 7 mins but I don't think
> > > > a missing pulse is going to give me as much trouble as ghost pulse and
> > > > anyway that could have been a software glitch.
> > > >
> > > > Too late to cut metal now but 

Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Chris Albertson]

You are right, but under all conditions, the resistor connecting the wire
to ground through a diode has lower impedance than the same wire terminated
at a transistor gate as was the case before.  The proof is that it works
now.

The other thing was thinking is that it should be simple to use software to
filter out a ghost pulse from an encoder.  After all, we know that it can
only happen once per revolution.   We could look at the counter that racks
A/B quadrature pulses and know it is is time for an index. Software
could do this even with no configuration by spinning the shaft.   In fact
verifying that the index pulse always happens at the expected time is a
great why to error-check that no counts were dropped or added.   It would
be a great self-dignostic.

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 4:11 PM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> To fair we need to use the word low resistance path to ground.  The
> impedance of the wiring at 300kHz where electrical noise might exist from a
> VFD may be considerably higher.
>
> Think of the basic electronics of an inductor and capacitor in parallel.
> At DC the resistance and impedance is the coil resistance to ground.At
> ultra high frequencies the reactance of the capacitor is likely so low that
> it's also a short circuit to ground.  And in-between somewhere at some
> frequency the pair are in resonance and the 'impendance' can be very high.
>
> The wire from the encoder to the electronics has inductance, especially if
> coiled up and there is capacitance per foot/meter rating on various
> cables.  It may or may not be important depending on the noise frequency.
>
> John Dammeyer
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: October-13-21 3:51 PM
> > To: phodg...@uk22.net; Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> >
> > Then this proves the cause.  The isolators provide a low impedance path
> to
> > ground.  It is just current-limiting resistor and a forward-biased diode.
> >  With this low impedance to ground there is no way for EMI to cause the
> > voltage on the wire to raise.
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 1:40 PM Peter Hodgson <
> peterjohnhodg...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Well!
> > >
> > > A quick update for those that are interested.
> > >
> > > The HPCL2631's won the postal race and arrived in the mail today.
> > >
> > > I made up a little 'interface' board to mount them on with the pull
> ups,
> > > caps, etc. and fitted that board this evenening.
> > >
> > > After an initial check on the index pulse I ran my G76 program (in air)
> > > for the M47 x 3.0 thread, that as giving me so much trouble, whilst
> > > watching Halscope for the encoder index and I didn't see one ghost
> > > pulse. I did see one that was missing over the 7 mins but I don't think
> > > a missing pulse is going to give me as much trouble as ghost pulse and
> > > anyway that could have been a software glitch.
> > >
> > > Too late to cut metal now but I will tomorrow.
> > >
> > > Looking good though!
> > >
> > > Pete
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 13/10/2021 19:12, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > > I'll agree with Andy here.  I have a dual trace older digital scope
> and
> > > a 4 trace digital that can even decode CAN, SPI and I2C messaging.  I
> > > bought a small Digilant PC development kit version for $400 or so to
> get
> > > UART decoding for a PAN-TILT system that was misbehaving.  The add on
> > > module for the scope to do that was $1200 so a no brainer.  Haven't
> used it
> > > since we solved the serial port issues 3 years ago.
> > > >
> > > > But my 4 trace I use all the time.  The 2 trace has spent time out in
> > > the shop by the mill but was useless for determining what the issue was
> > > with the out of spec DC servo that only lost steps in one direction and
> > > never the other.  The G-54 zero crept in one direction resulting in the
> > > center drill peck holes being in one place and then a bit later the
> drill
> > > bit for those holes not lining up.
> > > >
> > > > In a noisy shop environment just getting the scope to see real data
> as
> > > opposed to the noise it picks up may be impossible.  I saw that at a
> > > Siemen's plant in Regensberg Germany back in the early 90's.   We
> scoped a
> > > CAN bus and could barely see the signal on the differential pair yet
> the
> > > system operated flawlessly.  Just couldn't find the right ground or
> > > whatever...
> > > >
> > > > So the money spent on a scope may not be worth anything.
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> -Original Message-
> > > >> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > > >> Sent: October-13-21 3:22 AM
> > > >> To:phodg...@uk22.net; Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> > > >>
> > > >> On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:13, Peter Hodgson<
> peterjohnhodg...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> I'm watching a cou

Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[John Dammeyer]

To fair we need to use the word low resistance path to ground.  The impedance 
of the wiring at 300kHz where electrical noise might exist from a VFD may be 
considerably higher.

Think of the basic electronics of an inductor and capacitor in parallel.  At DC 
the resistance and impedance is the coil resistance to ground.At ultra high 
frequencies the reactance of the capacitor is likely so low that it's also a 
short circuit to ground.  And in-between somewhere at some frequency the pair 
are in resonance and the 'impendance' can be very high.

The wire from the encoder to the electronics has inductance, especially if 
coiled up and there is capacitance per foot/meter rating on various cables.  It 
may or may not be important depending on the noise frequency.

John Dammeyer

> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: October-13-21 3:51 PM
> To: phodg...@uk22.net; Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> 
> Then this proves the cause.  The isolators provide a low impedance path to
> ground.  It is just current-limiting resistor and a forward-biased diode.
>  With this low impedance to ground there is no way for EMI to cause the
> voltage on the wire to raise.
> 
> On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 1:40 PM Peter Hodgson 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Well!
> >
> > A quick update for those that are interested.
> >
> > The HPCL2631's won the postal race and arrived in the mail today.
> >
> > I made up a little 'interface' board to mount them on with the pull ups,
> > caps, etc. and fitted that board this evenening.
> >
> > After an initial check on the index pulse I ran my G76 program (in air)
> > for the M47 x 3.0 thread, that as giving me so much trouble, whilst
> > watching Halscope for the encoder index and I didn't see one ghost
> > pulse. I did see one that was missing over the 7 mins but I don't think
> > a missing pulse is going to give me as much trouble as ghost pulse and
> > anyway that could have been a software glitch.
> >
> > Too late to cut metal now but I will tomorrow.
> >
> > Looking good though!
> >
> > Pete
> >
> >
> >
> > On 13/10/2021 19:12, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > I'll agree with Andy here.  I have a dual trace older digital scope and
> > a 4 trace digital that can even decode CAN, SPI and I2C messaging.  I
> > bought a small Digilant PC development kit version for $400 or so to get
> > UART decoding for a PAN-TILT system that was misbehaving.  The add on
> > module for the scope to do that was $1200 so a no brainer.  Haven't used it
> > since we solved the serial port issues 3 years ago.
> > >
> > > But my 4 trace I use all the time.  The 2 trace has spent time out in
> > the shop by the mill but was useless for determining what the issue was
> > with the out of spec DC servo that only lost steps in one direction and
> > never the other.  The G-54 zero crept in one direction resulting in the
> > center drill peck holes being in one place and then a bit later the drill
> > bit for those holes not lining up.
> > >
> > > In a noisy shop environment just getting the scope to see real data as
> > opposed to the noise it picks up may be impossible.  I saw that at a
> > Siemen's plant in Regensberg Germany back in the early 90's.   We scoped a
> > CAN bus and could barely see the signal on the differential pair yet the
> > system operated flawlessly.  Just couldn't find the right ground or
> > whatever...
> > >
> > > So the money spent on a scope may not be worth anything.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > >> Sent: October-13-21 3:22 AM
> > >> To:phodg...@uk22.net; Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:13, Peter Hodgson
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I'm watching a couple of Oscilloscopes on eBay so might take the
> > plunge.
> > >> I am going to go against the consensus and suggest that if you don't
> > >> already have an oscilloscope, and don't know how to use one, then you
> > >> might not find it much help.
> > >>
> > >> I certainly got nowhere trying to use one to track down false
> > >> triggering of limit switches. And I have owned a 'scope for decades
> > >> (though not used it more than a few times a year)
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> atp
> > >> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > >> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > >> lunatics."
> > >> ? George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Emc-users mailing list
> > >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listi

Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Chris Albertson]

Then this proves the cause.  The isolators provide a low impedance path to
ground.  It is just current-limiting resistor and a forward-biased diode.
 With this low impedance to ground there is no way for EMI to cause the
voltage on the wire to raise.

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 1:40 PM Peter Hodgson 
wrote:

>
> Well!
>
> A quick update for those that are interested.
>
> The HPCL2631's won the postal race and arrived in the mail today.
>
> I made up a little 'interface' board to mount them on with the pull ups,
> caps, etc. and fitted that board this evenening.
>
> After an initial check on the index pulse I ran my G76 program (in air)
> for the M47 x 3.0 thread, that as giving me so much trouble, whilst
> watching Halscope for the encoder index and I didn't see one ghost
> pulse. I did see one that was missing over the 7 mins but I don't think
> a missing pulse is going to give me as much trouble as ghost pulse and
> anyway that could have been a software glitch.
>
> Too late to cut metal now but I will tomorrow.
>
> Looking good though!
>
> Pete
>
>
>
> On 13/10/2021 19:12, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > I'll agree with Andy here.  I have a dual trace older digital scope and
> a 4 trace digital that can even decode CAN, SPI and I2C messaging.  I
> bought a small Digilant PC development kit version for $400 or so to get
> UART decoding for a PAN-TILT system that was misbehaving.  The add on
> module for the scope to do that was $1200 so a no brainer.  Haven't used it
> since we solved the serial port issues 3 years ago.
> >
> > But my 4 trace I use all the time.  The 2 trace has spent time out in
> the shop by the mill but was useless for determining what the issue was
> with the out of spec DC servo that only lost steps in one direction and
> never the other.  The G-54 zero crept in one direction resulting in the
> center drill peck holes being in one place and then a bit later the drill
> bit for those holes not lining up.
> >
> > In a noisy shop environment just getting the scope to see real data as
> opposed to the noise it picks up may be impossible.  I saw that at a
> Siemen's plant in Regensberg Germany back in the early 90's.   We scoped a
> CAN bus and could barely see the signal on the differential pair yet the
> system operated flawlessly.  Just couldn't find the right ground or
> whatever...
> >
> > So the money spent on a scope may not be worth anything.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: October-13-21 3:22 AM
> >> To:phodg...@uk22.net; Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> >>
> >> On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:13, Peter Hodgson
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm watching a couple of Oscilloscopes on eBay so might take the
> plunge.
> >> I am going to go against the consensus and suggest that if you don't
> >> already have an oscilloscope, and don't know how to use one, then you
> >> might not find it much help.
> >>
> >> I certainly got nowhere trying to use one to track down false
> >> triggering of limit switches. And I have owned a 'scope for decades
> >> (though not used it more than a few times a year)
> >>
> >> --
> >> atp
> >> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> >> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> >> lunatics."
> >> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[John Dammeyer]

Great!

> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Hodgson [mailto:peterjohnhodg...@gmail.com]
> Sent: October-13-21 1:38 PM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: [Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> 
> 
> Well!
> 
> A quick update for those that are interested.
> 
> The HPCL2631's won the postal race and arrived in the mail today.
> 
> I made up a little 'interface' board to mount them on with the pull ups,
> caps, etc. and fitted that board this evenening.
> 
> After an initial check on the index pulse I ran my G76 program (in air)
> for the M47 x 3.0 thread, that as giving me so much trouble, whilst
> watching Halscope for the encoder index and I didn't see one ghost
> pulse. I did see one that was missing over the 7 mins but I don't think
> a missing pulse is going to give me as much trouble as ghost pulse and
> anyway that could have been a software glitch.
> 
> Too late to cut metal now but I will tomorrow.
> 
> Looking good though!
> 
> Pete
> 
> 
> 
> On 13/10/2021 19:12, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > I'll agree with Andy here.  I have a dual trace older digital scope and a 4 
> > trace digital that can even decode CAN, SPI and I2C
> messaging.  I bought a small Digilant PC development kit version for $400 or 
> so to get UART decoding for a PAN-TILT system that was
> misbehaving.  The add on module for the scope to do that was $1200 so a no 
> brainer.  Haven't used it since we solved the serial port
> issues 3 years ago.
> >
> > But my 4 trace I use all the time.  The 2 trace has spent time out in the 
> > shop by the mill but was useless for determining what the
> issue was with the out of spec DC servo that only lost steps in one direction 
> and never the other.  The G-54 zero crept in one
> direction resulting in the center drill peck holes being in one place and 
> then a bit later the drill bit for those holes not lining up.
> >
> > In a noisy shop environment just getting the scope to see real data as 
> > opposed to the noise it picks up may be impossible.  I saw
> that at a Siemen's plant in Regensberg Germany back in the early 90's.   We 
> scoped a CAN bus and could barely see the signal on the
> differential pair yet the system operated flawlessly.  Just couldn't find the 
> right ground or whatever...
> >
> > So the money spent on a scope may not be worth anything.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: October-13-21 3:22 AM
> >> To:phodg...@uk22.net; Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> >>
> >> On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:13, Peter Hodgson  
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm watching a couple of Oscilloscopes on eBay so might take the plunge.
> >> I am going to go against the consensus and suggest that if you don't
> >> already have an oscilloscope, and don't know how to use one, then you
> >> might not find it much help.
> >>
> >> I certainly got nowhere trying to use one to track down false
> >> triggering of limit switches. And I have owned a 'scope for decades
> >> (though not used it more than a few times a year)
> >>
> >> --
> >> atp
> >> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> >> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> >> lunatics."
> >> ? George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Peter Hodgson]

Thank you John, that looks like a really useful document.

Pete

> On 13 Oct 2021, at 16:49, John Figie  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> John Figie
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 10:15 AM Peter Hodgson  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> On 13/10/2021 15:43, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> > On Wednesday 13 October 2021 06:06:06 Peter Hodgson wrote:
>> >
>> >> I just tested the VFD shield and supply line shield and both are open
>> >> circuit when not connected to the start bolt.
>> >>
>> >> There are three AC motors: Spindle, Oil Lubrication and Coolant Pump
>> >> that are all grounded to the machine frame via their mountings but I
>> >> have also ran individual earth cables to the star bolt. Is that good
>> >> practice??
>> >>
>> >> Pete
>> > I wouldn't think so Pete. Only the house static ground, the third pin of
>> > the power plug, the bare wire in romex cable, s/b connected there. Your
>> > connection to an earth ground is paralleling the static ground to earth,
>> > normally made in the meter head box or just below it. Thats the one and
>> > only place where its even legal to connect static ground and neutral
>> > together here in the US.
>> >
>> > That earth connection is potentially a huge ground loop. The machines
>> > themselves are, I assume sitting on concrete, a relatively poor
>> > conductor, and their frames should also be connected to that bolt unless
>> > the bolt itself is on the machine frame which will accomplish, barring
>> > paint, the same thing.
>> 
>> I think I might be creating confusion here with my terminology. When I 
>> say 'grounded' I mean the motor chassis has continuity to the machine 
>> frame via it's mounting bolts so therefore is 'earthed' BUT I have also 
>> run an individual earth cable from the motor chassis to the star bolt. 
>> No AC Neutral or dc 0v are taken to the machine frame or earth (as far 
>> as I know). My question is ..Is it good or bad practice to have the 
>> motor chassis with mechanical continuity to the machine frame AND 
>> continuity to the star bolt with an earth cable i.e. two routes to earth??
> 
> Yes I think this is good. In fact for industrial servo drives there is a 
> green earth conductor in the motor power cable that 
> provides a ground from the motor frame to earth ground. This is needed for 
> electrical safety as there is no requirement for
> the motor frame to be bolted to a metal frame that is also earth ground - but 
> that is a good practice.
> 
> I am a professional electrical / electronics engineer (44 years experience)  
> and I designed electronics for PWM servo drives for industrial applications.  
> I have also designed offline switch mode power supplies for industrial 
> applications.  The products that I design and work with have to not only 
> function but must also meet EMC standards for Radiated and conducted 
> emissions, Immunity to EFT (Electrical Fast Transients), Surge transients, 
> Immunity to radiated and conducted RF, and ESD (Electrostatic Discharge) all 
> to the industrial levels defined by the international standards. The surge 
> transient immunity standards in particular are meant to provide immunity from 
> surges in power and ground caused by lightning.
> 
> I think the best advice I can give you is some reference material that will 
> help you wire your machine using best industry practices.  I have attached an 
> application note by SEW, a German company and a link to best practices for 
> installing servo drives in industrial applications by a well known US company 
> Rockwell Automation.  Please pay particular attention to shield terminations 
> as this "key".  It is best to have a metal plane where your equipment is 
> mounted. This metal plane should be connected to earth in one place with a 
> wire or braid for low impedance. You should keep shield "pigtails" short or 
> zero length as illustrated in the application notes. 
> 
> Rockwell Automation uses Ethernet to connect and control industrial I/O and 
> drives using real time coordinated motion to a controller so, to make this 
> all work reliably in an industrial environment requires correct wiring and 
> grounding.
> 
> http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/at/motion-at004_-en-p.pdf
>> 
>> I didn't build this machine control. It was an eBay purchase where the 
>> LCNC computer was lost and seems like it had been passed around a bit 
>> whilst various people tried to get it running again. It's running quite
>> well now after I bought it and got my head around LCNC but I'm now 
>> trying to iron out these last few wrinkles!!
>> 
>> Pete
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> >> On 12/10/2021 02:50, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> >>> On Monday 11 October 2021 17:32:31 Peter Hodgson wrote:
>>  Thanks all for your continued support.
>> 
>>  I’ve now separated all the earth grounding to individual cables
>>  going to one bolt in the steel control enclosure  which is then
>>  connected directly to AC earth wire from the 240v outlet. I’ve also
>> >

Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Ralph Stirling]

I wish that the polyjet resin printer technology would
reach the consumer market.  We were given a Stratasys
Eden 500V polyjet printer last year (originally a $200K
machine), and it lays down 16 micron thick layers with
42 micron horizontal resolution.  Parts are solid.  Build
envelope is huge (500 x 400 x 200mm), but resin is $0.20/g.
Post processing is just scraping and washing off support
material (with water).  No goosebumps from model supports
to remove.  Support material is also $0.20/g.  Resin comes
in 3.6kg cartridges, so I don't stock multiple colors...  It
is amazingly fast though.  One small part was 38min to
print one, and 2hr45min to print 40 more (as a batch).

-- Ralph

From: Bruce Layne [linux...@thinkingdevices.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 10:58 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

CAUTION: This email originated from outside the Walla Walla University email 
system.


On 10/13/21 12:03 PM, Martin Dobbins wrote:
> Bruce Layne wrote:
>
> Someone needs to make an upgraded MSLA printer that automates the post
> processing operations.
>
> I'll pull the trigger when they do, Bruce.

I think of the current state of resin 3D printing as similar to the
early days of photography - nearly magical, but there is some
inconvenient slopping of chemicals to make the magic work.  We need the
3D printing equivalent of digital photography with all of the magic,
instant gratification, and without the messy chemicals.

However, a little rinsing with isopropyl alcohol, air drying, and UV
exposure to cure the surface is a minor price to pay for the resin 3D
printing magic.  It's SO much easier to CAD a structural part and resin
print it than it is to use CNC to make the part.  I complain about the
IPA rinse, but it's much faster and easier than cutting raw stock,
fixturing, breaking end mills, tool changes, clearing chips, multiple
fixture setups, tumble deburring, etc.   As an added bonus, I can 3D
print parts that can't be made by CNC or injection molding.  Small parts
can be arrayed and they 3D print as quickly as a single part when using
MSLA where the entire layer is exposed. Resin printing is an incredibly
powerful tool in my engineering toolbox.

> Do you have an MSLA right now? What model?

I have a Qidi Shadow 5.5S and a Qidi S Box.  Both are budget resin
printers that do a good job, but there are probably better options now.
We're still fairly early in the MSLA technological development.  Prices
are falling as the quality and features improve.

I've had good results with Saraya Tech ABS-Like resin.  It prints well
at the printer's default settings.  I hung some parts outside in direct
sunlight all summer and there was no degradation in strength or loss of
aesthetics.  The quality of the available resins is quickly improving
too.  I'm hoping the supply catches up to the increasing demand and the
prices fall to a penny a gram.

Resin printing is enabling a lot of small businesses to make great niche
products that wouldn't be viable if they required expensive high volume
injection molding.

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[Emc-users] Fwd: Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Peter Hodgson]

Well!

A quick update for those that are interested.

The HPCL2631's won the postal race and arrived in the mail today.

I made up a little 'interface' board to mount them on with the pull ups, 
caps, etc. and fitted that board this evenening.


After an initial check on the index pulse I ran my G76 program (in air) 
for the M47 x 3.0 thread, that as giving me so much trouble, whilst 
watching Halscope for the encoder index and I didn't see one ghost 
pulse. I did see one that was missing over the 7 mins but I don't think 
a missing pulse is going to give me as much trouble as ghost pulse and 
anyway that could have been a software glitch.


Too late to cut metal now but I will tomorrow.

Looking good though!

Pete



On 13/10/2021 19:12, John Dammeyer wrote:

I'll agree with Andy here.  I have a dual trace older digital scope and a 4 
trace digital that can even decode CAN, SPI and I2C messaging.  I bought a 
small Digilant PC development kit version for $400 or so to get UART decoding 
for a PAN-TILT system that was misbehaving.  The add on module for the scope to 
do that was $1200 so a no brainer.  Haven't used it since we solved the serial 
port issues 3 years ago.

But my 4 trace I use all the time.  The 2 trace has spent time out in the shop 
by the mill but was useless for determining what the issue was with the out of 
spec DC servo that only lost steps in one direction and never the other.  The 
G-54 zero crept in one direction resulting in the center drill peck holes being 
in one place and then a bit later the drill bit for those holes not lining up.

In a noisy shop environment just getting the scope to see real data as opposed 
to the noise it picks up may be impossible.  I saw that at a Siemen's plant in 
Regensberg Germany back in the early 90's.   We scoped a CAN bus and could 
barely see the signal on the differential pair yet the system operated 
flawlessly.  Just couldn't find the right ground or whatever...

So the money spent on a scope may not be worth anything.

John



-Original Message-
From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
Sent: October-13-21 3:22 AM
To:phodg...@uk22.net; Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:13, Peter Hodgson  wrote:


I'm watching a couple of Oscilloscopes on eBay so might take the plunge.

I am going to go against the consensus and suggest that if you don't
already have an oscilloscope, and don't know how to use one, then you
might not find it much help.

I certainly got nowhere trying to use one to track down false
triggering of limit switches. And I have owned a 'scope for decades
(though not used it more than a few times a year)

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
� George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Greg Bernard]

Oops, forgot the link! Here's a good rundown of super glue workholding:
https://youtu.be/r6DCvtcU8_M

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:15 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

> Hi Dave,
> The question was more about how to hold something like this to make it
> from scratch and there have been some great suggestions.  Your method to
> repair would also work.  At the moment, when I do use the tripod I can
> loosen the clamp screw, and push/pull on the rack to change the position.
> The crank just turns a pinion on a rack so it's easy.  Which is probably
> why it hasn't been repaired in all these years.
>
> John
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> > Sent: October-13-21 7:52 AM
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.
> >
> > Being lazy and cheap I would clamp the piece broken handle side up to a
> > plate using a pin thru the hole as a second reference for holding, If
> > necessary use a screw thru the hole depending on� size. Now that you
> > have it affixed, probe profile and convert to dwg/cad. Machine off the
> > casting on the broken side about half way to the knob.
> >
> > bolt down piece of Al and mil a rough +.01� to +.02 replacement; pin and
> > epoxy to handle, finish mill to final dimensions.
> > Done in two.
> >
> > Did I miss something obvious?
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > On 10/13/21 7:22 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Wednesday 13 October 2021 05:50:52 Dr. Andreas O. Lindner wrote:
> > >
> > >> Opens OK in Freecad 0.19 on my MAC.
> > > I don't have any mac's, I don't want to test my fire insurance. I am
> the
> > > long since retired CE at a tv station, a chair I held for 18+ years at
> > > the end of the last century. They bought a couple mac G5's with some
> gfx
> > > production software several years after I retired, paid about 30 grand
> > > for all of it and both of them went up in flames that needed a fire
> > > extinguisher to put out within 6 months, post mortem found a frozen fan
> > > in each one. Std, BBLB, bronze bushing $0.95 fans. Needless to say, mac
> > > told us to call somebody that cares, and mac's were removed from our
> > > approved purchase list. The station built a new control room complex
> for
> > > the digital conversion and now broadcasts 8 channels thru 2
> transmitters
> > > using 2 linux driven (centos) video file servers built in house.
> Records
> > > 4 channels from a satellite, and plays 4 channels to air each. The
> owner
> > > died about 4 years back, his daughter sold it to Grey for an obscene
> > > amount, and the first thing they wanted was for linux to disappear,
> they
> > > were a windows operation. 3+ years later, those servers are still there
> > > and still working, and have never aired a BSOD, so the cash cow never
> > > goes dry, something the windows machines used by the weather channel
> did
> > > several times daily. MBA's do seem to understand reliability, so I've
> > > not heard of any make linux disappear memos recently.
> > >
> > > But they have also lost their linux guy to the fbi at about a 3x raise
> a
> > > year back. I think there's a potentially costly lesson someplace in
> > > that. ;-)  He built those servers from scratch.
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > FreeCAD_0.19-23578-Linux-Conda_glibc2.12-x86_64.AppImage, here on
> stretch
> > > with 32gigs of dram, goes into a cancelable busy loop loading it, and I
> > > let it chew on it for several minutes. No debug output to the terminal
> > > so I've no clue what its upchucking over.
> > >
> > >> Dr. Andreas O. Lindner
> > >>
> > >> Lindner TAC
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Greg Bernard]

Here's a good rundown of super glue workholding.

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 1:15 PM John Dammeyer  wrote:

> Hi Dave,
> The question was more about how to hold something like this to make it
> from scratch and there have been some great suggestions.  Your method to
> repair would also work.  At the moment, when I do use the tripod I can
> loosen the clamp screw, and push/pull on the rack to change the position.
> The crank just turns a pinion on a rack so it's easy.  Which is probably
> why it hasn't been repaired in all these years.
>
> John
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> > Sent: October-13-21 7:52 AM
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.
> >
> > Being lazy and cheap I would clamp the piece broken handle side up to a
> > plate using a pin thru the hole as a second reference for holding, If
> > necessary use a screw thru the hole depending on� size. Now that you
> > have it affixed, probe profile and convert to dwg/cad. Machine off the
> > casting on the broken side about half way to the knob.
> >
> > bolt down piece of Al and mil a rough +.01� to +.02 replacement; pin and
> > epoxy to handle, finish mill to final dimensions.
> > Done in two.
> >
> > Did I miss something obvious?
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > On 10/13/21 7:22 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Wednesday 13 October 2021 05:50:52 Dr. Andreas O. Lindner wrote:
> > >
> > >> Opens OK in Freecad 0.19 on my MAC.
> > > I don't have any mac's, I don't want to test my fire insurance. I am
> the
> > > long since retired CE at a tv station, a chair I held for 18+ years at
> > > the end of the last century. They bought a couple mac G5's with some
> gfx
> > > production software several years after I retired, paid about 30 grand
> > > for all of it and both of them went up in flames that needed a fire
> > > extinguisher to put out within 6 months, post mortem found a frozen fan
> > > in each one. Std, BBLB, bronze bushing $0.95 fans. Needless to say, mac
> > > told us to call somebody that cares, and mac's were removed from our
> > > approved purchase list. The station built a new control room complex
> for
> > > the digital conversion and now broadcasts 8 channels thru 2
> transmitters
> > > using 2 linux driven (centos) video file servers built in house.
> Records
> > > 4 channels from a satellite, and plays 4 channels to air each. The
> owner
> > > died about 4 years back, his daughter sold it to Grey for an obscene
> > > amount, and the first thing they wanted was for linux to disappear,
> they
> > > were a windows operation. 3+ years later, those servers are still there
> > > and still working, and have never aired a BSOD, so the cash cow never
> > > goes dry, something the windows machines used by the weather channel
> did
> > > several times daily. MBA's do seem to understand reliability, so I've
> > > not heard of any make linux disappear memos recently.
> > >
> > > But they have also lost their linux guy to the fbi at about a 3x raise
> a
> > > year back. I think there's a potentially costly lesson someplace in
> > > that. ;-)  He built those servers from scratch.
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > FreeCAD_0.19-23578-Linux-Conda_glibc2.12-x86_64.AppImage, here on
> stretch
> > > with 32gigs of dram, goes into a cancelable busy loop loading it, and I
> > > let it chew on it for several minutes. No debug output to the terminal
> > > so I've no clue what its upchucking over.
> > >
> > >> Dr. Andreas O. Lindner
> > >>
> > >> Lindner TAC
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Chris Albertson]

Yes, experimental setup does require some skill.  Sometimes you even have
to build a test connection to the scope with a connector on it.  Then on
the scope there are setting for "DO coupled" or "AC coupled and for placing
in low pass filters and trigger level and on the digital scope even more
settings with menus three levels deep

Logic analyzers are another good tool.  These can have 8 or 16
onput channels and can have very complex triggering and recording, Mixed
signal scopes combine both. Some good logic analyzers can be had for
only $10.

People with no budget can make-do with make-shift things like setting up a
iPhone camera to video-record a 1970's vintage analog scope.Then you
can scroll back and look.  Many times the key is being smart in how you
rig the experiments.  For example measuring inductance with a scope takes
some thinking and a plan.

The nest subject after buying a scope is scope-probes.   These are not just
simple wires with clips.  Almost always they ate 10 to 1 attenuator but I
have some 100:1 that switch to 1000:1   Probes are a whole field of study
in themselves.


On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 11:16 AM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> I'll agree with Andy here.  I have a dual trace older digital scope and a
> 4 trace digital that can even decode CAN, SPI and I2C messaging.  I bought
> a small Digilant PC development kit version for $400 or so to get UART
> decoding for a PAN-TILT system that was misbehaving.  The add on module for
> the scope to do that was $1200 so a no brainer.  Haven't used it since we
> solved the serial port issues 3 years ago.
>
> But my 4 trace I use all the time.  The 2 trace has spent time out in the
> shop by the mill but was useless for determining what the issue was with
> the out of spec DC servo that only lost steps in one direction and never
> the other.  The G-54 zero crept in one direction resulting in the center
> drill peck holes being in one place and then a bit later the drill bit for
> those holes not lining up.
>
> In a noisy shop environment just getting the scope to see real data as
> opposed to the noise it picks up may be impossible.  I saw that at a
> Siemen's plant in Regensberg Germany back in the early 90's.   We scoped a
> CAN bus and could barely see the signal on the differential pair yet the
> system operated flawlessly.  Just couldn't find the right ground or
> whatever...
>
> So the money spent on a scope may not be worth anything.
>
> John
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: October-13-21 3:22 AM
> > To: phodg...@uk22.net; Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> >
> > On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:13, Peter Hodgson 
> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm watching a couple of Oscilloscopes on eBay so might take the
> plunge.
> >
> > I am going to go against the consensus and suggest that if you don't
> > already have an oscilloscope, and don't know how to use one, then you
> > might not find it much help.
> >
> > I certainly got nowhere trying to use one to track down false
> > triggering of limit switches. And I have owned a 'scope for decades
> > (though not used it more than a few times a year)
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >
> >
> > ___
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>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[John Dammeyer]

I'll agree with Andy here.  I have a dual trace older digital scope and a 4 
trace digital that can even decode CAN, SPI and I2C messaging.  I bought a 
small Digilant PC development kit version for $400 or so to get UART decoding 
for a PAN-TILT system that was misbehaving.  The add on module for the scope to 
do that was $1200 so a no brainer.  Haven't used it since we solved the serial 
port issues 3 years ago.

But my 4 trace I use all the time.  The 2 trace has spent time out in the shop 
by the mill but was useless for determining what the issue was with the out of 
spec DC servo that only lost steps in one direction and never the other.  The 
G-54 zero crept in one direction resulting in the center drill peck holes being 
in one place and then a bit later the drill bit for those holes not lining up.  

In a noisy shop environment just getting the scope to see real data as opposed 
to the noise it picks up may be impossible.  I saw that at a Siemen's plant in 
Regensberg Germany back in the early 90's.   We scoped a CAN bus and could 
barely see the signal on the differential pair yet the system operated 
flawlessly.  Just couldn't find the right ground or whatever...

So the money spent on a scope may not be worth anything.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: October-13-21 3:22 AM
> To: phodg...@uk22.net; Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses
> 
> On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:13, Peter Hodgson  
> wrote:
> 
> > I'm watching a couple of Oscilloscopes on eBay so might take the plunge.
> 
> I am going to go against the consensus and suggest that if you don't
> already have an oscilloscope, and don't know how to use one, then you
> might not find it much help.
> 
> I certainly got nowhere trying to use one to track down false
> triggering of limit switches. And I have owned a 'scope for decades
> (though not used it more than a few times a year)
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Dave,
The question was more about how to hold something like this to make it from 
scratch and there have been some great suggestions.  Your method to repair 
would also work.  At the moment, when I do use the tripod I can loosen the 
clamp screw, and push/pull on the rack to change the position.  The crank just 
turns a pinion on a rack so it's easy.  Which is probably why it hasn't been 
repaired in all these years.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: dave engvall [mailto:dengv...@charter.net]
> Sent: October-13-21 7:52 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.
> 
> Being lazy and cheap I would clamp the piece broken handle side up to a
> plate using a pin thru the hole as a second reference for holding, If
> necessary use a screw thru the hole depending on� size. Now that you
> have it affixed, probe profile and convert to dwg/cad. Machine off the
> casting on the broken side about half way to the knob.
> 
> bolt down piece of Al and mil a rough +.01� to +.02 replacement; pin and
> epoxy to handle, finish mill to final dimensions.
> Done in two.
> 
> Did I miss something obvious?
> 
> Dave
> 
> On 10/13/21 7:22 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 13 October 2021 05:50:52 Dr. Andreas O. Lindner wrote:
> >
> >> Opens OK in Freecad 0.19 on my MAC.
> > I don't have any mac's, I don't want to test my fire insurance. I am the
> > long since retired CE at a tv station, a chair I held for 18+ years at
> > the end of the last century. They bought a couple mac G5's with some gfx
> > production software several years after I retired, paid about 30 grand
> > for all of it and both of them went up in flames that needed a fire
> > extinguisher to put out within 6 months, post mortem found a frozen fan
> > in each one. Std, BBLB, bronze bushing $0.95 fans. Needless to say, mac
> > told us to call somebody that cares, and mac's were removed from our
> > approved purchase list. The station built a new control room complex for
> > the digital conversion and now broadcasts 8 channels thru 2 transmitters
> > using 2 linux driven (centos) video file servers built in house. Records
> > 4 channels from a satellite, and plays 4 channels to air each. The owner
> > died about 4 years back, his daughter sold it to Grey for an obscene
> > amount, and the first thing they wanted was for linux to disappear, they
> > were a windows operation. 3+ years later, those servers are still there
> > and still working, and have never aired a BSOD, so the cash cow never
> > goes dry, something the windows machines used by the weather channel did
> > several times daily. MBA's do seem to understand reliability, so I've
> > not heard of any make linux disappear memos recently.
> >
> > But they have also lost their linux guy to the fbi at about a 3x raise a
> > year back. I think there's a potentially costly lesson someplace in
> > that. ;-)  He built those servers from scratch.
> >
> > 
> >
> > FreeCAD_0.19-23578-Linux-Conda_glibc2.12-x86_64.AppImage, here on stretch
> > with 32gigs of dram, goes into a cancelable busy loop loading it, and I
> > let it chew on it for several minutes. No debug output to the terminal
> > so I've no clue what its upchucking over.
> >
> >> Dr. Andreas O. Lindner
> >>
> >> Lindner TAC
> > [...]
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Bruce Layne]

On 10/13/21 12:03 PM, Martin Dobbins wrote:

Bruce Layne wrote:

Someone needs to make an upgraded MSLA printer that automates the post
processing operations.

I'll pull the trigger when they do, Bruce.


I think of the current state of resin 3D printing as similar to the 
early days of photography - nearly magical, but there is some 
inconvenient slopping of chemicals to make the magic work.  We need the 
3D printing equivalent of digital photography with all of the magic, 
instant gratification, and without the messy chemicals.


However, a little rinsing with isopropyl alcohol, air drying, and UV 
exposure to cure the surface is a minor price to pay for the resin 3D 
printing magic.  It's SO much easier to CAD a structural part and resin 
print it than it is to use CNC to make the part.  I complain about the 
IPA rinse, but it's much faster and easier than cutting raw stock, 
fixturing, breaking end mills, tool changes, clearing chips, multiple 
fixture setups, tumble deburring, etc.   As an added bonus, I can 3D 
print parts that can't be made by CNC or injection molding.  Small parts 
can be arrayed and they 3D print as quickly as a single part when using 
MSLA where the entire layer is exposed. Resin printing is an incredibly 
powerful tool in my engineering toolbox.





Do you have an MSLA right now? What model?


I have a Qidi Shadow 5.5S and a Qidi S Box.  Both are budget resin 
printers that do a good job, but there are probably better options now.  
We're still fairly early in the MSLA technological development.  Prices 
are falling as the quality and features improve.


I've had good results with Saraya Tech ABS-Like resin.  It prints well 
at the printer's default settings.  I hung some parts outside in direct 
sunlight all summer and there was no degradation in strength or loss of 
aesthetics.  The quality of the available resins is quickly improving 
too.  I'm hoping the supply catches up to the increasing demand and the 
prices fall to a penny a gram.


Resin printing is enabling a lot of small businesses to make great niche 
products that wouldn't be viable if they required expensive high volume 
injection molding.






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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Chris Albertson]

Machine chassis frames are "earthed" as a safety precaution and you never
want to disable is.  The idea is that if there is some kind of failure a
220 volt AC mains "hot" wire might contact the frame and make the entire
machine "hot".  But if the frame is Earthed is will still be safe and the
breaker will trip.  This safety ground is done independently of the CNC
controller.

The recommended procedure is to comment the machine's safety ground to the
controller's signal  ground with one connection.  Yes, in theory this make
a ground loop through the breaker panel.

So find the safety ground point, likey near the motor and conet that to the
Star ground on the controller.   This way the ground does NOT run through
the chassis.  Never use the chassis/frame as a conductor.

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 8:15 AM Peter Hodgson 
wrote:

>
> On 13/10/2021 15:43, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 13 October 2021 06:06:06 Peter Hodgson wrote:
> >
> >> I just tested the VFD shield and supply line shield and both are open
> >> circuit when not connected to the start bolt.
> >>
> >> There are three AC motors: Spindle, Oil Lubrication and Coolant Pump
> >> that are all grounded to the machine frame via their mountings but I
> >> have also ran individual earth cables to the star bolt. Is that good
> >> practice??
> >>
> >> Pete
> > I wouldn't think so Pete. Only the house static ground, the third pin of
> > the power plug, the bare wire in romex cable, s/b connected there. Your
> > connection to an earth ground is paralleling the static ground to earth,
> > normally made in the meter head box or just below it. Thats the one and
> > only place where its even legal to connect static ground and neutral
> > together here in the US.
> >
> > That earth connection is potentially a huge ground loop. The machines
> > themselves are, I assume sitting on concrete, a relatively poor
> > conductor, and their frames should also be connected to that bolt unless
> > the bolt itself is on the machine frame which will accomplish, barring
> > paint, the same thing.
>
> I think I might be creating confusion here with my terminology. When I
> say 'grounded' I mean the motor chassis has continuity to the machine
> frame via it's mounting bolts so therefore is 'earthed' BUT I have also
> run an individual earth cable from the motor chassis to the star bolt.
> No AC Neutral or dc 0v are taken to the machine frame or earth (as far
> as I know). My question is ..Is it good or bad practice to have the
> motor chassis with mechanical continuity to the machine frame AND
> continuity to the star bolt with an earth cable i.e. two routes to earth??
>
> I didn't build this machine control. It was an eBay purchase where the
> LCNC computer was lost and seems like it had been passed around a bit
> whilst various people tried to get it running again. It's running quite
> well now after I bought it and got my head around LCNC but I'm now
> trying to iron out these last few wrinkles!!
>
> Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> >> On 12/10/2021 02:50, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> On Monday 11 October 2021 17:32:31 Peter Hodgson wrote:
>  Thanks all for your continued support.
> 
>  I’ve now separated all the earth grounding to individual cables
>  going to one bolt in the steel control enclosure  which is then
>  connected directly to AC earth wire from the 240v outlet. I’ve also
>  made a polycarbonate mounting bracket for the encoder housing so
>  it’s insulated from the machine frame and terminated it’s screen to
>  the same earth star bolt at the control panel end.
> 
>  I’m happy to have this now as best practice but it wasn’t the
>  solution for the ghost pulses.
> 
>  Interestingly, I noticed that the earth cable coming from the
>  spindle VFD screen made the encoder signal extremely noisy when it
>  was in close proximity to the encoder cable.
> >>> That smells like a ground loop. If disconnected at the star bolt, it
> >>> should be an open circuit, to ground or anything else.
> >>>
>  Also, just for your info, the
>  stepper motors or drivers create a lot of ‘white noise’ on the shop
>  radio when they are holding or running so I guess they are chucking
>  out a lot of high frequency noise.
> >>> They do.
> >>>
> >>> I generally run my motor cables in shielded cabling. The stepper
> >>> drivers control the motor current by turning themselves on and off
> >>> at an ultrasonic frequeny we don't hear. If you can find "starquad"
> >>> cabing in a gage heavy enough it doesn't run warm at the motors
> >>> current. It is actualy the gold standard microphone cable, a top
> >>> quality microphone cable available in several gages, all VERY
> >>> flexible, get the lowest gage number Suzan has. 22 gage IIRC. Ground
> >>> the shielding drain wire at the star bolt, trim and insulate it at
> >>> the motor end.
> >>>
>  It seems I have three options from here.
> 
>  1) Change to the HPCL2631 opto isolato

Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 12:49, Peter Hodgson  wrote:
>
> They look nice. Which one do you usualy turn to?

The Tek is on the shelf above my workbench, plugged in and with the
probes hooked up, so that one.

> https://banggood.app.link/a2038i0Ujkb

Or this, on next-day with no worries about import taxes etc:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B099S4QP3T/

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Martin Dobbins]

Bruce Layne wrote:

Someone needs to make an upgraded MSLA printer that automates the post
processing operations.

I'll pull the trigger when they do, Bruce.

Do you have an MSLA right now? What model?

Martin






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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Martin Dobbins]

Gene Heskett wrote:

> > Unforch, John, not even my latest copy of freecad can open that
> > file.

>FreeCAD_0.19-23578-Linux-Conda_glibc2.12-x86_64.AppImage, here on stretch
> with 32gigs of dram, goes into a cancelable busy loop loading it

FWIW, Gene

I'm using FreeCAD_0.19-24291-Linux-Conda_glibc2.12-x86_64.AppImage on Ubuntu 
20.04 with 16gigs, John's file loads without a hiccup.

Martin

>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Todd Zuercher]

I think I'd try to replicate the arm with a piece of sheet steel folded and 
bent appropriately.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Bruce Layne  
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 11:01 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On 10/13/21 12:02 AM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> Chrome plated pot metal and if that can crack and break a 3D printed handle 
> would definitely.

An FDM 3D printed crank arm would almost certainly break, regardless of the 
material used.

An MSLA (resin) 3D printed crank arm almost certainly would not break.
I would fix this problem by creating the part in FreeCAD and printing it on a 
resin 3D printer using an "ABS-like" structural resin.

A part's strength can be measured in many ways, but in general, MSLA resin 
printed 3D parts created using a structural polyurethane resin are stronger 
than aluminum but not as strong as steel.  The polyurethane is as durable as a 
hockey puck and polyurethane is very resistant to cracking, unlike aluminum or 
the pot metal original part.

Even for home gamers, 3D printers are not just filament based. Resin goo MSLA 
3D printers are now fairly cheap, and the resolution is almost as good as 
injection molding.  The parts are very strong and the material cost is around 
US$.03 per gram.  Part strength is isotropic so layer delamination isn't a 
problem when designing parts as it is with FDM 3D printing.  The biggest MSLA 
downside is the isopropyl alcohol part cleaning and UV post curing, but it's 
not that bad.

Someone needs to make an upgraded MSLA printer that automates the post 
processing operations.




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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Chris Albertson]

If you can afford it, a part like this can be 3D printed in stainless
steel.  I think SpaceX 3D prints the injectors used on their Raptor rocket
engines in some exotic material like Inconel.   Printer that can do that
are expensive but you can use a service.

But I think the point of this handle is an exercise, not to make a handle.
Given that you have a CNC mill how to you best make an exact replica?
Think of this as a homework assignment.

Here is what I would do...

Take the CAD file and orient it so the two drill holes are on the vertical
axis. (I think? the crank and handle holes are parallel)   The in the CAD
system add a metal pedestal The elevates the crank.  On the bottom of the
pedestal are two blind threaded holes, perhaps M5 or M6 size.

Start by making the hole on the backside of the billet.  Fip the billet and
screw it to the table from the bottom.

Mill the crank top and sides and drill the holes.

Flip the crank and use the two holes you just drilled to screw the part to
the table, pedestal facing up.  You need spacers under the crank to make
the drilled holes vertical

Using an end mill finish the side of the crank that is now facing up. This
will turn the entire pedestal into chips.

For both cuts the top surface is flat but horizontal, so maybe a ball mill
is required, at least for finishing

A second method is to design the part with bridges to the billet.  You cut
the part, flip the billet and cutfrom the other side and then there is a
crank suspended inside the scrap and connected to it by maybe three
bridges.   then you cut them with a saw and the part falls out.  Finally,
you smooth over the saw cuts.THis is like casting where you have to saw
off some parts.



On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 8:17 AM Bruce Layne 
wrote:

>
>
> On 10/13/21 12:02 AM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > Chrome plated pot metal and if that can crack and break a 3D printed
> handle would definitely.
>
> An FDM 3D printed crank arm would almost certainly break, regardless of
> the material used.
>
> An MSLA (resin) 3D printed crank arm almost certainly would not break.
> I would fix this problem by creating the part in FreeCAD and printing it
> on a resin 3D printer using an "ABS-like" structural resin.
>
> A part's strength can be measured in many ways, but in general, MSLA
> resin printed 3D parts created using a structural polyurethane resin are
> stronger than aluminum but not as strong as steel.  The polyurethane is
> as durable as a hockey puck and polyurethane is very resistant to
> cracking, unlike aluminum or the pot metal original part.
>
> Even for home gamers, 3D printers are not just filament based. Resin goo
> MSLA 3D printers are now fairly cheap, and the resolution is almost as
> good as injection molding.  The parts are very strong and the material
> cost is around US$.03 per gram.  Part strength is isotropic so layer
> delamination isn't a problem when designing parts as it is with FDM 3D
> printing.  The biggest MSLA downside is the isopropyl alcohol part
> cleaning and UV post curing, but it's not that bad.
>
> Someone needs to make an upgraded MSLA printer that automates the post
> processing operations.
>
>
>
>
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>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Bruce Layne]

On 10/13/21 12:02 AM, John Dammeyer wrote:

Chrome plated pot metal and if that can crack and break a 3D printed handle 
would definitely.


An FDM 3D printed crank arm would almost certainly break, regardless of 
the material used.


An MSLA (resin) 3D printed crank arm almost certainly would not break.  
I would fix this problem by creating the part in FreeCAD and printing it 
on a resin 3D printer using an "ABS-like" structural resin.


A part's strength can be measured in many ways, but in general, MSLA 
resin printed 3D parts created using a structural polyurethane resin are 
stronger than aluminum but not as strong as steel.  The polyurethane is 
as durable as a hockey puck and polyurethane is very resistant to 
cracking, unlike aluminum or the pot metal original part.


Even for home gamers, 3D printers are not just filament based. Resin goo 
MSLA 3D printers are now fairly cheap, and the resolution is almost as 
good as injection molding.  The parts are very strong and the material 
cost is around US$.03 per gram.  Part strength is isotropic so layer 
delamination isn't a problem when designing parts as it is with FDM 3D 
printing.  The biggest MSLA downside is the isopropyl alcohol part 
cleaning and UV post curing, but it's not that bad.


Someone needs to make an upgraded MSLA printer that automates the post 
processing operations.





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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Peter Hodgson]

On 13/10/2021 15:43, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Wednesday 13 October 2021 06:06:06 Peter Hodgson wrote:


I just tested the VFD shield and supply line shield and both are open
circuit when not connected to the start bolt.

There are three AC motors: Spindle, Oil Lubrication and Coolant Pump
that are all grounded to the machine frame via their mountings but I
have also ran individual earth cables to the star bolt. Is that good
practice??

Pete

I wouldn't think so Pete. Only the house static ground, the third pin of
the power plug, the bare wire in romex cable, s/b connected there. Your
connection to an earth ground is paralleling the static ground to earth,
normally made in the meter head box or just below it. Thats the one and
only place where its even legal to connect static ground and neutral
together here in the US.

That earth connection is potentially a huge ground loop. The machines
themselves are, I assume sitting on concrete, a relatively poor
conductor, and their frames should also be connected to that bolt unless
the bolt itself is on the machine frame which will accomplish, barring
paint, the same thing.


I think I might be creating confusion here with my terminology. When I 
say 'grounded' I mean the motor chassis has continuity to the machine 
frame via it's mounting bolts so therefore is 'earthed' BUT I have also 
run an individual earth cable from the motor chassis to the star bolt. 
No AC Neutral or dc 0v are taken to the machine frame or earth (as far 
as I know). My question is ..Is it good or bad practice to have the 
motor chassis with mechanical continuity to the machine frame AND 
continuity to the star bolt with an earth cable i.e. two routes to earth??


I didn't build this machine control. It was an eBay purchase where the 
LCNC computer was lost and seems like it had been passed around a bit 
whilst various people tried to get it running again. It's running quite 
well now after I bought it and got my head around LCNC but I'm now 
trying to iron out these last few wrinkles!!


Pete






On 12/10/2021 02:50, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Monday 11 October 2021 17:32:31 Peter Hodgson wrote:

Thanks all for your continued support.

I’ve now separated all the earth grounding to individual cables
going to one bolt in the steel control enclosure  which is then
connected directly to AC earth wire from the 240v outlet. I’ve also
made a polycarbonate mounting bracket for the encoder housing so
it’s insulated from the machine frame and terminated it’s screen to
the same earth star bolt at the control panel end.

I’m happy to have this now as best practice but it wasn’t the
solution for the ghost pulses.

Interestingly, I noticed that the earth cable coming from the
spindle VFD screen made the encoder signal extremely noisy when it
was in close proximity to the encoder cable.

That smells like a ground loop. If disconnected at the star bolt, it
should be an open circuit, to ground or anything else.


Also, just for your info, the
stepper motors or drivers create a lot of ‘white noise’ on the shop
radio when they are holding or running so I guess they are chucking
out a lot of high frequency noise.

They do.

I generally run my motor cables in shielded cabling. The stepper
drivers control the motor current by turning themselves on and off
at an ultrasonic frequeny we don't hear. If you can find "starquad"
cabing in a gage heavy enough it doesn't run warm at the motors
current. It is actualy the gold standard microphone cable, a top
quality microphone cable available in several gages, all VERY
flexible, get the lowest gage number Suzan has. 22 gage IIRC. Ground
the shielding drain wire at the star bolt, trim and insulate it at
the motor end.


It seems I have three options from here.

1) Change to the HPCL2631 opto isolators.

2) Change to the 74HC14 buffer. I think I will need resistance
dividers with this as the max input in the datasheet suggests 6v so
I will need to  drop the 12v encoder signal to <6v (?)

3) Try the existing 74HC4050 buffer with resistance dividers.

I’ve got some components on order so I guess whichever turns up
first will be the first I’ll try.

Seems like I also need to find myself some sort of oscilloscope on
eBay!

Digital storage will show you stuff that cannot be seen on an
analogue scope. Definitely worth the extra sheckles. Some of this
stuff is at 100 or more megahertz. And tends to be very dim on a
analog scope. I actually have 3, a 30 yo Hitachi 100 mhz dual trace
analog, much better than a tek of the same vintage, a 5 yo digital
with the same specs you can get for $300 or so today, and I just
bought Siglents best, a 4 trace, 350 mhz digital sampler. It also
costs a down payment on a new small car. Inheritances are handy.


I’ll keep you posted.

Please.


Cheers,

Pete


On 11 Oct 2021, at 21:11, Gene Heskett 
wrote:

On Monday 11 October 2021 15:49:43 Chris Albertson wrote:

You could be correct.   High impedance is a recipe for noise.
I had suggested a res

Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 13 October 2021 06:21:46 andy pugh wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:13, Peter Hodgson 
 wrote:
> > I'm watching a couple of Oscilloscopes on eBay so might take the
> > plunge.
>
> I am going to go against the consensus and suggest that if you don't
> already have an oscilloscope, and don't know how to use one, then you
> might not find it much help.
>
> I certainly got nowhere trying to use one to track down false
> triggering of limit switches. And I have owned a 'scope for decades
> (though not used it more than a few times a year)

That would tend to tell me that your scope is too old to be "triggered".

Thats trying to compare apples to raisins Andy. If you can't set it to 
trigger on the riseing or falling edge of a signal, you will never see 
the noise you are looking for.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[dave engvall]

Being lazy and cheap I would clamp the piece broken handle side up to a 
plate using a pin thru the hole as a second reference for holding, If 
necessary use a screw thru the hole depending on  size. Now that you 
have it affixed, probe profile and convert to dwg/cad. Machine off the 
casting on the broken side about half way to the knob.


bolt down piece of Al and mil a rough +.01  to +.02 replacement; pin and 
epoxy to handle, finish mill to final dimensions.

Done in two.

Did I miss something obvious?

Dave

On 10/13/21 7:22 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Wednesday 13 October 2021 05:50:52 Dr. Andreas O. Lindner wrote:


Opens OK in Freecad 0.19 on my MAC.

I don't have any mac's, I don't want to test my fire insurance. I am the
long since retired CE at a tv station, a chair I held for 18+ years at
the end of the last century. They bought a couple mac G5's with some gfx
production software several years after I retired, paid about 30 grand
for all of it and both of them went up in flames that needed a fire
extinguisher to put out within 6 months, post mortem found a frozen fan
in each one. Std, BBLB, bronze bushing $0.95 fans. Needless to say, mac
told us to call somebody that cares, and mac's were removed from our
approved purchase list. The station built a new control room complex for
the digital conversion and now broadcasts 8 channels thru 2 transmitters
using 2 linux driven (centos) video file servers built in house. Records
4 channels from a satellite, and plays 4 channels to air each. The owner
died about 4 years back, his daughter sold it to Grey for an obscene
amount, and the first thing they wanted was for linux to disappear, they
were a windows operation. 3+ years later, those servers are still there
and still working, and have never aired a BSOD, so the cash cow never
goes dry, something the windows machines used by the weather channel did
several times daily. MBA's do seem to understand reliability, so I've
not heard of any make linux disappear memos recently.

But they have also lost their linux guy to the fbi at about a 3x raise a
year back. I think there's a potentially costly lesson someplace in
that. ;-)  He built those servers from scratch.



FreeCAD_0.19-23578-Linux-Conda_glibc2.12-x86_64.AppImage, here on stretch
with 32gigs of dram, goes into a cancelable busy loop loading it, and I
let it chew on it for several minutes. No debug output to the terminal
so I've no clue what its upchucking over.


Dr. Andreas O. Lindner

Lindner TAC

[...]

Cheers, Gene Heskett.




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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 13 October 2021 06:09:42 Peter Hodgson wrote:

> Thanks Chris,
>
> I'm watching a couple of Oscilloscopes on eBay so might take the
> plunge.
>
> Not sure when I would use it after this episode although I am learning
> a lot from you guys and enjoying the new knowledge so it might may
> find other uses.
>
> Pete
>
Once you understand what its showing you, you'll wonder why you didn't 
buy it 20 years ago. I'm now 87 yo, and have had a scope probe in my 
hand since I was just shy of 17 yo. That first scope was a non-triggered 
Hickock 505. By todays versions, a piece of junk, even so it was one 
hell of a teacher.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 13 October 2021 06:06:06 Peter Hodgson wrote:

> I just tested the VFD shield and supply line shield and both are open
> circuit when not connected to the start bolt.
>
> There are three AC motors: Spindle, Oil Lubrication and Coolant Pump
> that are all grounded to the machine frame via their mountings but I
> have also ran individual earth cables to the star bolt. Is that good
> practice??
>
> Pete

I wouldn't think so Pete. Only the house static ground, the third pin of 
the power plug, the bare wire in romex cable, s/b connected there. Your 
connection to an earth ground is paralleling the static ground to earth, 
normally made in the meter head box or just below it. Thats the one and 
only place where its even legal to connect static ground and neutral 
together here in the US.

That earth connection is potentially a huge ground loop. The machines 
themselves are, I assume sitting on concrete, a relatively poor 
conductor, and their frames should also be connected to that bolt unless 
the bolt itself is on the machine frame which will accomplish, barring 
paint, the same thing.

> On 12/10/2021 02:50, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Monday 11 October 2021 17:32:31 Peter Hodgson wrote:
> >> Thanks all for your continued support.
> >>
> >> I’ve now separated all the earth grounding to individual cables
> >> going to one bolt in the steel control enclosure  which is then
> >> connected directly to AC earth wire from the 240v outlet. I’ve also
> >> made a polycarbonate mounting bracket for the encoder housing so
> >> it’s insulated from the machine frame and terminated it’s screen to
> >> the same earth star bolt at the control panel end.
> >>
> >> I’m happy to have this now as best practice but it wasn’t the
> >> solution for the ghost pulses.
> >>
> >> Interestingly, I noticed that the earth cable coming from the
> >> spindle VFD screen made the encoder signal extremely noisy when it
> >> was in close proximity to the encoder cable.
> >
> > That smells like a ground loop. If disconnected at the star bolt, it
> > should be an open circuit, to ground or anything else.
> >
> >> Also, just for your info, the
> >> stepper motors or drivers create a lot of ‘white noise’ on the shop
> >> radio when they are holding or running so I guess they are chucking
> >> out a lot of high frequency noise.
> >
> > They do.
> >
> > I generally run my motor cables in shielded cabling. The stepper
> > drivers control the motor current by turning themselves on and off
> > at an ultrasonic frequeny we don't hear. If you can find "starquad"
> > cabing in a gage heavy enough it doesn't run warm at the motors
> > current. It is actualy the gold standard microphone cable, a top
> > quality microphone cable available in several gages, all VERY
> > flexible, get the lowest gage number Suzan has. 22 gage IIRC. Ground
> > the shielding drain wire at the star bolt, trim and insulate it at
> > the motor end.
> >
> >> It seems I have three options from here.
> >>
> >> 1) Change to the HPCL2631 opto isolators.
> >>
> >> 2) Change to the 74HC14 buffer. I think I will need resistance
> >> dividers with this as the max input in the datasheet suggests 6v so
> >> I will need to  drop the 12v encoder signal to <6v (?)
> >>
> >> 3) Try the existing 74HC4050 buffer with resistance dividers.
> >>
> >> I’ve got some components on order so I guess whichever turns up
> >> first will be the first I’ll try.
> >>
> >> Seems like I also need to find myself some sort of oscilloscope on
> >> eBay!
> >
> > Digital storage will show you stuff that cannot be seen on an
> > analogue scope. Definitely worth the extra sheckles. Some of this
> > stuff is at 100 or more megahertz. And tends to be very dim on a
> > analog scope. I actually have 3, a 30 yo Hitachi 100 mhz dual trace
> > analog, much better than a tek of the same vintage, a 5 yo digital
> > with the same specs you can get for $300 or so today, and I just
> > bought Siglents best, a 4 trace, 350 mhz digital sampler. It also
> > costs a down payment on a new small car. Inheritances are handy.
> >
> >> I’ll keep you posted.
> >
> > Please.
> >
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Pete
> >>
> >>> On 11 Oct 2021, at 21:11, Gene Heskett 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Monday 11 October 2021 15:49:43 Chris Albertson wrote:
>  You could be correct.   High impedance is a recipe for noise.
>  I had suggested a resistive divider just because it is simpler.
>  But you are right about providing a ground path.  A divider
>  certainly would do that.   If an opto is really needed then use a
>  high-value resistor to ground to keep the line from floating and
>  bleed off static.
>  I also don't like the idea of grounding the shield on the encoder
>  end as it makes it impossible to know the path from encoder
>  housing back to true Earth ground.  It is "unanalyzable" (if such
>  a word exists) Running the shield to star ground point makes it
>  easy to verify it is correct.
> >>>
> 

Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 13 October 2021 05:50:52 Dr. Andreas O. Lindner wrote:

> Opens OK in Freecad 0.19 on my MAC.

I don't have any mac's, I don't want to test my fire insurance. I am the 
long since retired CE at a tv station, a chair I held for 18+ years at 
the end of the last century. They bought a couple mac G5's with some gfx 
production software several years after I retired, paid about 30 grand 
for all of it and both of them went up in flames that needed a fire 
extinguisher to put out within 6 months, post mortem found a frozen fan 
in each one. Std, BBLB, bronze bushing $0.95 fans. Needless to say, mac 
told us to call somebody that cares, and mac's were removed from our 
approved purchase list. The station built a new control room complex for 
the digital conversion and now broadcasts 8 channels thru 2 transmitters 
using 2 linux driven (centos) video file servers built in house. Records 
4 channels from a satellite, and plays 4 channels to air each. The owner 
died about 4 years back, his daughter sold it to Grey for an obscene 
amount, and the first thing they wanted was for linux to disappear, they 
were a windows operation. 3+ years later, those servers are still there 
and still working, and have never aired a BSOD, so the cash cow never 
goes dry, something the windows machines used by the weather channel did 
several times daily. MBA's do seem to understand reliability, so I've 
not heard of any make linux disappear memos recently.

But they have also lost their linux guy to the fbi at about a 3x raise a 
year back. I think there's a potentially costly lesson someplace in 
that. ;-)  He built those servers from scratch.



FreeCAD_0.19-23578-Linux-Conda_glibc2.12-x86_64.AppImage, here on stretch 
with 32gigs of dram, goes into a cancelable busy loop loading it, and I 
let it chew on it for several minutes. No debug output to the terminal 
so I've no clue what its upchucking over.

> Dr. Andreas O. Lindner
>
> Lindner TAC
[...]

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 13 October 2021 05:43:23 marcus.bow...@visible.eclipse.co.uk 
wrote:

> On 2021-10-13 09:31, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Unforch, John, not even my latest copy of freecad can open that
> > file.
>
> It opens OK in the free version of Fusion 360.
>
But the free has been gone for over a year. I did go to the Alibre site 
but they only have a 30 day free trial, which includes legal threats 
daily for about 2 years if you don't buy it at $500/seat. BTDT, deleted 
it when it no longer ran. I tried that once but 30 days is nowhere near 
enough time to get your head around it and decide if it can do what you 
want to do. I eventually wrote a procmail recipe to send their legal 
threats to /dev/null.

OpenSCAD is a breath of fresh air, easy enough to use, and gets a new 
AppImage release about every 60 days. Updated for newer compilers, 
versions newer than January of this year need buster to run so won't run 
of this stretch with 32 gigs of dram. So I run it on one of my old dells 
with buster and 16gigs of dram. But it really needs more dram. Big 
projects with lots of union()'s and difference()'s eat memory for all 
three meals, putting it deep into 50 gigs of swap and of course that 
slows it down even if the swap is on its SSD at 900 megs a second. But 
it does get the job done if the job is an .stl to feed cura, hence to a 
prusa MK3S kit I built from a box of parts, took me 3 days to build it.  
But openscad does not have a library that can generate gcode that I know 
of, so I still write my own.

John's tripod crank fixings would be a couple hours to rough out & 3 days 
to fine tune for "purty". :o) Probably done on my 6040 since I have a 
mister on it. Haven't packed a mill and broke it since. :)

Take care Marcus.
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Les Newell]

That looks like a lot of scope for the money. Having used both CRT and 
digital, in my opinion digital is definitely the way to go. I gave away 
my last CRT scope about 6 years ago.


Les

On 13/10/2021 12:49, Peter Hodgson wrote:

They look nice. Which one do you usualy turn to?

I've been shying away from the CRT scopes as I've seen many on eBay 
for sapres or repair and for a few extra ££'s the one on this link 
seems to cover all the bases and I can also claim the VAT back so 
would only cost me £125 !! :


https://banggood.app.link/a2038i0Ujkb

It has a 7" screen and as afar as I can tell it has software so the 
results can be viewed on the PC too.




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Re: [Emc-users] armbian buster glade-3 python-gtksourceview2 worth pursuing?

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 12:59, Thomas J Powderly  wrote:

> I got quite lost and was never able to add the keys.

You can just grab the .deb file by hand, then install it with gdebi,
dpkg or (my normal way) with apt-get.

sudo apt-get ./name-of-deb-file

The ./ is a clue to apt that it should look for a file in the current
folder, rather than look on the repository.


-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] armbian buster glade-3 python-gtksourceview2 worth pursuing?

[Thomas J Powderly]

Thx very much Andy,

I read that I could add the linuxcnc repo,

but that was another rabbithole with 'no inrelease'

and JT's comments on the real repo was 'linuxcnc.org/dists'   ,

I got quite lost and was never able to add the keys.


(btw the rtpreempt _was_ lost, but MXMaster's install.sh restored it 
with ease)


tomp


On 10/13/21 2:46 PM, andy pugh wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 06:06, Thomas J Powderly  wrote:


import gtksourceview2 as gtksourceview

No module named gtksourceview2

For x86 and armhf we have back-ported Gtksourcevew:
http://www.linuxcnc.org/dists/buster/base/binary-armhf/
(python-htksourceview)

Which linuxcnc repository is your orangepi pointing at?

(One answer would be to simply download and install those debs)


thats likely the method i'll use, thx Andy




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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Mark Wendt]

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 7:41 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:35, Peter Hodgson 
> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Andy, that's good info and will temper my expectations.
> >
> > I'll see what comes along.
>
> FWIW I have two, a rather cute little Tektronix (with character
> generation on the CRT) dating from the 1980s:
> https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/336
> And a modern pocket scope, the DS213 in an alloy case:
> https://www.seeedstudio.com/DSO-Quad-Aluminium-Alloy-Black-p-1034.html
> Both have a screen slightly smaller than a credit card :-)
>

One can never have too many scopes.  I think I have an even dozen that go
from 50 MHz up to 1 GHz.  Mostly Tektronix with an HP or two tossed in for
good measure. Mostly lab scopes with bunches of plugins.  Oh, and a Tek 577
curve tracer in the heap too.  I used to restore and then resell them.
Satisfies the electronics geek in me.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Peter Hodgson]

They look nice. Which one do you usualy turn to?

I've been shying away from the CRT scopes as I've seen many on eBay for 
sapres or repair and for a few extra ££'s the one on this link seems to 
cover all the bases and I can also claim the VAT back so would only cost 
me £125 !! :


https://banggood.app.link/a2038i0Ujkb

It has a 7" screen and as afar as I can tell it has software so the 
results can be viewed on the PC too.



On 13/10/2021 12:38, andy pugh wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:35, Peter Hodgson  wrote:

Thanks Andy, that's good info and will temper my expectations.

I'll see what comes along.

FWIW I have two, a rather cute little Tektronix (with character
generation on the CRT) dating from the 1980s:
https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/336
And a modern pocket scope, the DS213 in an alloy case:
https://www.seeedstudio.com/DSO-Quad-Aluminium-Alloy-Black-p-1034.html
Both have a screen slightly smaller than a credit card :-)


--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:35, Peter Hodgson  wrote:
>
> Thanks Andy, that's good info and will temper my expectations.
>
> I'll see what comes along.

FWIW I have two, a rather cute little Tektronix (with character
generation on the CRT) dating from the 1980s:
https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/336
And a modern pocket scope, the DS213 in an alloy case:
https://www.seeedstudio.com/DSO-Quad-Aluminium-Alloy-Black-p-1034.html
Both have a screen slightly smaller than a credit card :-)


--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Peter Hodgson]

Thanks Andy, that's good info and will temper my expectations.

I'll see what comes along.

My thought is that it may help me understand general electronics a bit 
more and I can always put back on eBay if I don't find it useful.


Pete


On 13/10/2021 11:21, andy pugh wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:13, Peter Hodgson  wrote:


I'm watching a couple of Oscilloscopes on eBay so might take the plunge.

I am going to go against the consensus and suggest that if you don't
already have an oscilloscope, and don't know how to use one, then you
might not find it much help.

I certainly got nowhere trying to use one to track down false
triggering of limit switches. And I have owned a 'scope for decades
(though not used it more than a few times a year)



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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 11:13, Peter Hodgson  wrote:

> I'm watching a couple of Oscilloscopes on eBay so might take the plunge.

I am going to go against the consensus and suggest that if you don't
already have an oscilloscope, and don't know how to use one, then you
might not find it much help.

I certainly got nowhere trying to use one to track down false
triggering of limit switches. And I have owned a 'scope for decades
(though not used it more than a few times a year)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Peter Hodgson]

Thanks Chris,

I'm watching a couple of Oscilloscopes on eBay so might take the plunge.

Not sure when I would use it after this episode although I am learning a 
lot from you guys and enjoying the new knowledge so it might may find 
other uses.


Pete


On 12/10/2021 03:13, Chris Albertson wrote:

The trouble with guessing that it might be noise on the AC mains power or
radiate noise from motor cables or a ground loop is that when you get lucky
and the problem stops you never know it is was because by luck you
happened to coil some cable differently or that you actually fixed it.
Without seeing the root cause you can't know that the problem will not come
back.   'Sopes are useful and Gen is right, The Chinese digital ones are
good and worth themoney.   The older vintage analog scopes are good too if
you do not want to pay so much.Having one vs. not having one matters a
thousand times more that what kind you have.

Just do make sure the bandwidth is at a bare minimum 50 MHz, but 100 is
better.

That said a logic analyzer is almost as good as a scope and costs about
$10.   These things can only work on logic-level signals.  They allow you
to plot up to 8 or more signals.   You can look at any signal AFTER it has
been shifted to a logical level.   THese do nothelp yu see noise, they only
record high/low or 1/0 levels but still very usfull.

There are MANY Saleaeclones on eBay.

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 6:54 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:


On Monday 11 October 2021 17:32:31 Peter Hodgson wrote:


Thanks all for your continued support.

I’ve now separated all the earth grounding to individual cables going
to one bolt in the steel control enclosure  which is then connected
directly to AC earth wire from the 240v outlet. I’ve also made a
polycarbonate mounting bracket for the encoder housing so it’s
insulated from the machine frame and terminated it’s screen to the
same earth star bolt at the control panel end.

I’m happy to have this now as best practice but it wasn’t the solution
for the ghost pulses.

Interestingly, I noticed that the earth cable coming from the spindle
VFD screen made the encoder signal extremely noisy when it was in
close proximity to the encoder cable.

That smells like a ground loop. If disconnected at the star bolt, it
should be an open circuit, to ground or anything else.


Also, just for your info, the
stepper motors or drivers create a lot of ‘white noise’ on the shop
radio when they are holding or running so I guess they are chucking
out a lot of high frequency noise.

They do.

I generally run my motor cables in shielded cabling. The stepper drivers
control the motor current by turning themselves on and off at an
ultrasonic frequeny we don't hear. If you can find "starquad" cabing in
a gage heavy enough it doesn't run warm at the motors current. It is
actualy the gold standard microphone cable, a top quality microphone
cable available in several gages, all VERY flexible, get the lowest gage
number Suzan has. 22 gage IIRC. Ground the shielding drain wire at the
star bolt, trim and insulate it at the motor end.

It seems I have three options from here.

1) Change to the HPCL2631 opto isolators.

2) Change to the 74HC14 buffer. I think I will need resistance
dividers with this as the max input in the datasheet suggests 6v so I
will need to  drop the 12v encoder signal to <6v (?)

3) Try the existing 74HC4050 buffer with resistance dividers.

I’ve got some components on order so I guess whichever turns up first
will be the first I’ll try.

Seems like I also need to find myself some sort of oscilloscope on
eBay!

Digital storage will show you stuff that cannot be seen on an analogue
scope. Definitely worth the extra sheckles. Some of this stuff is at 100
or more megahertz. And tends to be very dim on a analog scope. I
actually have 3, a 30 yo Hitachi 100 mhz dual trace analog, much better
than a tek of the same vintage, a 5 yo digital with the same specs you
can get for $300 or so today, and I just bought Siglents best, a 4
trace, 350 mhz digital sampler. It also costs a down payment on a new
small car. Inheritances are handy.


I’ll keep you posted.

Please.


Cheers,

Pete


On 11 Oct 2021, at 21:11, Gene Heskett  wrote:

On Monday 11 October 2021 15:49:43 Chris Albertson wrote:

You could be correct.   High impedance is a recipe for noise.
I had suggested a resistive divider just because it is simpler.
But you are right about providing a ground path.  A divider
certainly would do that.   If an opto is really needed then use a
high-value resistor to ground to keep the line from floating and
bleed off static.
I also don't like the idea of grounding the shield on the encoder
end as it makes it impossible to know the path from encoder housing
back to true Earth ground.  It is "unanalyzable" (if such a word
exists) Running the shield to star ground point makes it easy to
verify it is correct.

+100 Chris. Run a separate ground to the encoder from the star bolt,
and connect the cables overal

Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Peter Hodgson]

I just tested the VFD shield and supply line shield and both are open 
circuit when not connected to the start bolt.


There are three AC motors: Spindle, Oil Lubrication and Coolant Pump 
that are all grounded to the machine frame via their mountings but I 
have also ran individual earth cables to the star bolt. Is that good 
practice??


Pete


On 12/10/2021 02:50, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Monday 11 October 2021 17:32:31 Peter Hodgson wrote:


Thanks all for your continued support.

I’ve now separated all the earth grounding to individual cables going
to one bolt in the steel control enclosure  which is then connected
directly to AC earth wire from the 240v outlet. I’ve also made a
polycarbonate mounting bracket for the encoder housing so it’s
insulated from the machine frame and terminated it’s screen to the
same earth star bolt at the control panel end.

I’m happy to have this now as best practice but it wasn’t the solution
for the ghost pulses.

Interestingly, I noticed that the earth cable coming from the spindle
VFD screen made the encoder signal extremely noisy when it was in
close proximity to the encoder cable.

That smells like a ground loop. If disconnected at the star bolt, it
should be an open circuit, to ground or anything else.


Also, just for your info, the
stepper motors or drivers create a lot of ‘white noise’ on the shop
radio when they are holding or running so I guess they are chucking
out a lot of high frequency noise.

They do.

I generally run my motor cables in shielded cabling. The stepper drivers
control the motor current by turning themselves on and off at an
ultrasonic frequeny we don't hear. If you can find "starquad" cabing in
a gage heavy enough it doesn't run warm at the motors current. It is
actualy the gold standard microphone cable, a top quality microphone
cable available in several gages, all VERY flexible, get the lowest gage
number Suzan has. 22 gage IIRC. Ground the shielding drain wire at the
star bolt, trim and insulate it at the motor end.

It seems I have three options from here.

1) Change to the HPCL2631 opto isolators.

2) Change to the 74HC14 buffer. I think I will need resistance
dividers with this as the max input in the datasheet suggests 6v so I
will need to  drop the 12v encoder signal to <6v (?)

3) Try the existing 74HC4050 buffer with resistance dividers.

I’ve got some components on order so I guess whichever turns up first
will be the first I’ll try.

Seems like I also need to find myself some sort of oscilloscope on
eBay!

Digital storage will show you stuff that cannot be seen on an analogue
scope. Definitely worth the extra sheckles. Some of this stuff is at 100
or more megahertz. And tends to be very dim on a analog scope. I
actually have 3, a 30 yo Hitachi 100 mhz dual trace analog, much better
than a tek of the same vintage, a 5 yo digital with the same specs you
can get for $300 or so today, and I just bought Siglents best, a 4
trace, 350 mhz digital sampler. It also costs a down payment on a new
small car. Inheritances are handy.


I’ll keep you posted.

Please.


Cheers,

Pete


On 11 Oct 2021, at 21:11, Gene Heskett  wrote:

On Monday 11 October 2021 15:49:43 Chris Albertson wrote:

You could be correct.   High impedance is a recipe for noise.
I had suggested a resistive divider just because it is simpler.
But you are right about providing a ground path.  A divider
certainly would do that.   If an opto is really needed then use a
high-value resistor to ground to keep the line from floating and
bleed off static.
I also don't like the idea of grounding the shield on the encoder
end as it makes it impossible to know the path from encoder housing
back to true Earth ground.  It is "unanalyzable" (if such a word
exists) Running the shield to star ground point makes it easy to
verify it is correct.

+100 Chris. Run a separate ground to the encoder from the star bolt,
and connect the cables overall shield ONLY to that bolt. If that
encoder uses the shield as its ground connection, toss it in the out
bin, and get one that does have a separate ground wie going into it
which is isolated from the metalic case. I would also verify that
the encoder has a good ground to its metalic housing. Painted
brackets are a recipe for failure. As are metallic shaft couplers.
The elastomeric coupler that came with my omron, failed a year ago,
and the coupling is now a couple layers of heat shrink with the
inside layer of thermal glue. If it fails, replace it with a fresh
copy. 50 cents maybe.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law
respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Dr. Andreas O. Lindner]

Opens OK in Freecad 0.19 on my MAC.


Dr. Andreas O. Lindner

Lindner TAC

Auhofstraße 11 B / 11
1130 Wien
Austria

Fax: +43 1 877 68 73
Mobil: +43 664 41 24 742

Email: a.lind...@lindner-tac.at
Web: http://www.lindner-tac.at



> Am 13.10.2021 um 10:31 schrieb Gene Heskett :
> 
> On Wednesday 13 October 2021 00:47:45 John Dammeyer wrote:
> 
>> Here we go.
>> How to hold and mill this?
>> John
>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
>>> Sent: October-12-21 9:02 PM
>>> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
>>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.
>>> 
> Maybe a stub on the end held in a 4th axis?
> 
> Any suggestions are welcome.
> John
 
 What is it cranking? Maybe I could 3d print it.
 
 Cheers, Gene Heskett.
>>> 
>>> Chrome plated pot metal and if that can crack and break a 3D printed
>>> handle would definitely.
>>> 
>>> What I could do of course is use epoxy to rebuilt the broken tang. 
>>> Grind off the rivet holding the knob.  Then cast a replacement out
>>> of bronze.
>>> 
>>> I'll measure it up and do a drawing.  It's been lying on my desk for
>>> a few years now and since I have working CNC it seems appropriate to
>>> finally get to it.  And to use CNC because this is the type of
>>> exercise that teaches.
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
> Unforch, John, not even my latest copy of freecad can open that file. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net 
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users 
>>> 
> 
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
> - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page  >
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: Rogue Index Pulses

[Peter Hodgson]

Thanks Andy,

I have a Schaffner FN2030-10-06 input filter on the VFD supply.

It became apparent  I needed that when I was trying to run Ethernet over 
the workshop power lines and it dropped out everytime I ran the spindle!


Pete


On 11/10/2021 23:51, andy pugh wrote:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 at 22:34, Peter Hodgson  wrote:


Interestingly, I noticed that the earth cable coming from the spindle VFD 
screen made the encoder signal extremely noisy when it was in close proximity 
to the encoder cable.

Ah, yes, VFDs can make a lot of noise in the electrical supply, which
can propagate through the system.

It's a good idea to power the VFD through an input filter, this keeps
the VFD noise out of the mains wiring.

I might even have a spare one, but have a look on eBay for "Rasmi filter".
Here is an example:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/250785925764

I had a lot of trouble on my first machine with ghost limit switch
triggering. An input filter for the VFD helped a lot.



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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[marcus . bowman]

On 2021-10-13 09:31, Gene Heskett wrote:

>

Unforch, John, not even my latest copy of freecad can open that file.

>

It opens OK in the free version of Fusion 360.

Marcus


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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 13 October 2021 00:47:45 John Dammeyer wrote:

> Here we go.
> How to hold and mill this?
> John
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> > Sent: October-12-21 9:02 PM
> > To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.
> >
> > > > Maybe a stub on the end held in a 4th axis?
> > > >
> > > > Any suggestions are welcome.
> > > > John
> > >
> > > What is it cranking? Maybe I could 3d print it.
> > >
> > > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> >
> > Chrome plated pot metal and if that can crack and break a 3D printed
> > handle would definitely.
> >
> > What I could do of course is use epoxy to rebuilt the broken tang. 
> > Grind off the rivet holding the knob.  Then cast a replacement out
> > of bronze.
> >
> > I'll measure it up and do a drawing.  It's been lying on my desk for
> > a few years now and since I have working CNC it seems appropriate to
> > finally get to it.  And to use CNC because this is the type of
> > exercise that teaches.
> >
> > John
> >
Unforch, John, not even my latest copy of freecad can open that file. 
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 13 October 2021 00:02:12 John Dammeyer wrote:

> > > Maybe a stub on the end held in a 4th axis?
> > >
> > > Any suggestions are welcome.
> > > John
> >
> > What is it cranking? Maybe I could 3d print it.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett.
>
> Chrome plated pot metal and if that can crack and break a 3D printed
> handle would definitely.
>
> What I could do of course is use epoxy to rebuilt the broken tang. 
> Grind off the rivet holding the knob.  Then cast a replacement out of
> bronze.
>
> I'll measure it up and do a drawing.  It's been lying on my desk for a
> few years now and since I have working CNC it seems appropriate to
> finally get to it.  And to use CNC because this is the type of
> exercise that teaches.
>
> John
>
This is true.  And if making it, alu is a lot easier to machine. Stronger 
than pot too.

Since I  usually write my own gcode for such. I tend to use the raw stuff 
I have, and presently have several sq feet of 1/2" & 1" thick alu.

After the gcode is written and maybe proved by making some sawdust, that 
would be perhaps an hour at the most to cut out of that 1/2" on my 6040 
mill, using a 2 or 3 ounces of kool-mist mix to keep the tool cool and 
clean. The main gcode would be the tapered shank and the slot that 
straddles the shaft its turning, then a different clamp down to drill 
the two holes, probably all with the same 3mm carbide tool in one clamp 
up. I there is turning clearance such that the angle that broke it in 
the first place is only needed for looks, leave the angle out of the new 
one, it will be stronger. Drilling a 4mm rivet hole with a 3mm SC mill 
is a piece of cake to write using arcgenm18.py. So is the outer rounded 
end you will drill the hole in to remount the knob. The tapered shank, 
is an incremental depth loop, all done by tracing the outside, 25 thou 
deeper per trace around the shape. Leave the big end square, but write 
an arc at the knob end for that depth loop turnaround. Then the only 
clamp up change will be turning it on it on its side to drill the hole 
it swings on.

If you do it right, it might be less than 80 lines of code.

I needed some wrenches to fit the er12 chuck on the 6040's new motor and 
the double D-flated motor shaft. They fit very precisely and work better 
than anything I could buy.  And the weight is much reduced. I also use a 
CBN disk about 30 thou thick and 2" in diameter in that 24k rev motor to 
sharpen HSS lathe tools, getting them many times sharper than an 
si-carbide green wheel in the bench grinder does since HSS and diamond 
wheels don't gee-haw at all, it just burns up the diamond. Leaves a face 
like a mirror but w/o any saw tooth edge burr to dull quickly.  CBN is 
the best kept secret in abrasives. It can also resharpen a carbide tool 
about as fast as diamond can, making a cheap molded chip much sharper 
than it is coming out of the 10 pack shipper.

But you won't find it at Lowes, TSC, or whatever the hardware store is 
called on your local dirt. Its also more expensive than diamond as I 
bought 3 from a maker in denver at 110$ each. And broke one of them with 
a crescent wrench that slipped before I got to use it. That is what 
prompted the wrench making, but that breakage sure ruined the air in the 
garage for a while.

Take care John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

Super glue and tape. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-coDYZCmEw
 

On Tuesday, October 12, 2021, 11:33:19 PM MDT, John Dammeyer 
 wrote:  
 
 Thanks Chris. 
I haven't needed the handle all that badly or I would have done something.  
What I also just noticed is the plastic handle is held with a rivet into the 
top of a larger extension.  New drawing attached.

But what I've found lately is my biggest issue with CNC is work holding.  

So start out with a block and turn the 7mm shaft to a depth of 17mm on the 
lathe or held in a vise and mill it round.  At this point in the 4th axis could 
grip this and the profile of the handle could be done with it held horizontal.  

Then rotate to the correct angle from narrow to the wide end so the end with 
the slot is wider than the knob end.  Flip it the other direction in the 4th 
axis and do the same horizontal motion that creates the expanding in size end.  

Likely the round part by the knob could also be milled around.  Rotate it so 
it's vertical and cut the slot?

Way more work than using the mill to cut the slot on the end in a piece of 
steel.  Heat and bend.  A bit of grinding and a hole to hold a screw for the 
handle and it's done.  Crude but as I said at the start.  This is more an 
exercise in how to use CNC than solve a problem.

John  
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Re: [Emc-users] armbian buster glade-3 python-gtksourceview2 worth pursuing?

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 06:06, Thomas J Powderly  wrote:

> import gtksourceview2 as gtksourceview
>
> No module named gtksourceview2

For x86 and armhf we have back-ported Gtksourcevew:
http://www.linuxcnc.org/dists/buster/base/binary-armhf/
(python-htksourceview)

Which linuxcnc repository is your orangepi pointing at?

(One answer would be to simply download and install those debs)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Replacing a handle.

[andy pugh]

On Wed, 13 Oct 2021 at 04:36, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> I can't figure out how I'd hold the raw stock to machine it.

I would think in terms of machining one face, then making a pocket in
some other stock, hot-glueing the handle in the pocket (machined face
down) and then finishing.

I did that here:
Pockets: https://photos.app.goo.gl/VW79GdLciiErSGhv7
Machining: https://photos.app.goo.gl/fk7npMw12Axr2Kqm9
Final items: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ugsBKDn2dcBFLiPe9

Thorough, nowadays, I might be 3D printing the pockets.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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