[Emc-users] two axis tabletop mill

[Douglas Pollard]

HI All,  I am a retired machinist and  I have a little experience 
running and programing CNC.  I have a drill press that with a X, Y axis 
milling vice on it.  I do a little milling on little home shop 
projects.  I have morris taper endmill attachments and it don't do to 
bad .  I would like to run the x,y axises with a program like Emc.  I 
have a couple of stepping motors Nema 17 I think.  Came out of old dot 
matrix printer.   I thought maybe they would pull the little table for 
milling maybe geared down with a timing belt drive.  If it would feed 10 
inches a min I would be happy. I have and old computer 155 MHZ  I  
thought maybe to install xubuntu and Emc if the machine is fast enough 
.  I have some experience with Linux programs but but probably barely 
past the newby stage. I think it would be fun to play with and I don't 
expect much out of this but some good learning and experience.   Maybe 
cut some aluminumor plastic  parts.  Does this sound feasable?  I guess 
I need to know how steep is the learning curve to get Emc hooked up 
through steppers and motors to run such a thing.  I don't really want to 
have to get a degree in something to do this. I could buy all this but 
that wouldn't be much fun.
Thanks for any advise,
Doug  

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Re: [Emc-users] two axis tabletop mill

[Douglas Pollard]

Thanks Ray that was pretty much what I was hoping to hear. I'll be 
reading everything I can find on line and then. I'll be back asking 
questions  when I know enough to ask a decent question.
 Doug


Ray Henry wrote:
> Hi Doug
>
> On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 11:07 -0400, Douglas Pollard wrote:
>   
>> HI All,  I am a retired machinist and  I have a little experience 
>> running and programing CNC.  I have a drill press that with a X, Y axis 
>> milling vice on it.  I do a little milling on little home shop 
>> projects.  I have morris taper endmill attachments and it don't do to 
>> bad .  I would like to run the x,y axises with a program like Emc.  I 
>> have a couple of stepping motors Nema 17 I think.  Came out of old dot 
>> matrix printer.   I thought maybe they would pull the little table for 
>> milling maybe geared down with a timing belt drive.  If it would feed 10 
>> inches a min I would be happy. 
>> 
>
> Years ago I modified a Griz minimill to ballscrews and little old style
> NEMA 23 MEA motors that were rated about 100 ounce inch.  I used 4/1
> belts and 5tpi screws and it was just about unstoppable at 15-20 ipm.
> If you got that belt and ballscrew ratio even higher it might work with
> NEMA 17.  You will want to watch the RPM of the motors because torque on
> steppers drops off really quickly. 
>
>   
>> I have and old computer 155 MHZ  I  
>> thought maybe to install xubuntu and Emc if the machine is fast enough 
>> .
>> 
>
> This box would really stretch the low end for CPU.  Part of the problem
> with steppers is that the base thread speed you use is what determines
> the steps per second you can get from it and base thread will be slow
> with a 155.  Another part of the problem is getting enough memory into
> these old boxes to satisfy the Ubuntu install stuff. I've done that
> successfully with 196 and once with <100 on a laptop but it was a day
> long process. 
>
> I was able to run BDI-4xx on an overclocked Gateway 166.  I got just
> enough out of it to run the Griz mentioned above at 8-10 IPM.  I believe
> that finding something a bit faster at auction or used or picked up
> along the street during junk day would give a better chance of
> satisfaction.
>
>   
>>   I have some experience with Linux programs but but probably barely 
>> past the newby stage. I think it would be fun to play with and I don't 
>> expect much out of this but some good learning and experience.   Maybe 
>> cut some aluminumor plastic  parts.  Does this sound feasable?  
>> 
>
> Sure.  You don't need great rapids to handle these materials but you do
> need to be careful to get a decent chip load and cooling or you'll have
> trouble with melting and breaking stuff.
>
>   
>> I guess 
>> I need to know how steep is the learning curve to get Emc hooked up 
>> through steppers and motors to run such a thing.  I don't really want to 
>> have to get a degree in something to do this. 
>> 
>
> The essential configuration is done for you in any one of several
> defaults.  You might have to stretch out base period on a slow box and
> reduce velocity stuff to get round real-time error messages.  A bit of
> time on IRC while setting it up after install ought to get you going.
>
>   
>> I could buy all this but 
>> that wouldn't be much fun.
>> 
>
> If making chips is your goal, buy it.  If the construction/retrofit
> process as well as chips is your goal, EMC2 is the right place to be.
> I've serviced CNC stuff since about 79 and always thought to myself,
> damn, this could be done with a PC.  Since I found the EMC project in
> about 95 I've been able to play to my heart's content.
>
> Rayh
>
>
>
>
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>   


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[Emc-users] installing EMC in Ubuntu10.4

[Douglas Pollard]

Hi all,  I have a  a dell computer with XP in it.I downloaded EMC with 
Ubuntu 10.04 and burnt a desktop dvd.  I turn the machine of and restart 
with the dvd in the drive.  IT starts reading the DVD the little dots 
keep changing color on the splash screen as expected but the operation 
comes to a stop and Ubuntu does not open so you can run it or install 
it.  I have downloaded  and burned two separate disks and also tried 
tried a couple others of Ubuntu 10.04 only. None of them will open and 
run or install. They appear to be loading up to a certain point.  I 
guess there is something in the bios that needs to be changed, any 
ideas  ???
 Doug


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Re: [Emc-users] Suicide brakes on an AC universal motor?

[Douglas Pollard]

Seems to me the best way to cut off some fingers is to depend on a 
switch to stop the blade.  At some point it will fail and you from habit 
will stick yore fingers near.  Just keep your hands in your pockets 
until the blade stops. Just like any other safe working habits depend on 
good practice.
 Doug

On 06/01/2011 12:26 PM, Eric Keller wrote:
> If you can't discipline yourself to watch it stop, it seems evident
> that should figure out how to mount an overhead guard.  The BT3000 was
> a really nice saw, but mine developed a sticky off switch after a
> couple of years.
> Eric
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 8:13 AM, gene heskett  wrote:
>> Greetings all;
>>
>> Is anyone aware of a quick&  dirty retrofit kit to brake an AC universal
>> motor when the power is removed?
>>
>> I have a Ryobi BT-3000 table saw, which when kept properly adjusted, does a
>> fine job.  Its motor package is a universal motor that drives the blade
>> with a gilmer belt.
>>
>> I nicked a finger on my table saw blade yesterday because it was still
>> spinning 2 or 3 seconds after the kill switch was hit.  Not seriously, just
>> a slight nick that bled for 2 minutes, and is a red spot about 1/8" in
>> diameter this morning.
>>
>> If practical, I would like to replace the existing power switch with one
>> that is both handier because its not such a long reach under the table to
>> hit it, and which shorts the motor in the off position, or at least applies
>> a power resistor dummy load to it, commonly referred to as suicide braking.
>>
>> So, before I reinvent this wheel, is anyone aware of such an aftermarket
>> device?
>>
>> --
>> Cheers, Gene
>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>> 
>> 
>> The more things change, the more they stay insane.
>>
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Re: [Emc-users] Suicide brakes on an AC universal motor?

[Douglas Pollard]

On 06/02/2011 11:11 AM, dave wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-06-02 at 09:28 -0400, gene heskett wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 02, 2011 09:17:34 AM Dave did opine:
>>
>>> On 6/1/2011 11:56 PM, gene heskett wrote:
 This is NOT a kickback pawl.  This is a solid steel plate that mounts
 to the old blade guard bracket, under the table insert.  You must
 make a zero clearance table insert, I make mine from the 1/2" thick
 melamine coated phenolic from Highland Hardware in Hotlanta.  I wrote
 the gcode to carve the outer so it fits the table quite snugly, then
 raise the blade to cut the slot, then take it back to the mill and
 extend the slot all the way to the rear so the shark fin can rise and
 fall with the blade.
>>> OK.  I get it now.
>>>
>>> I think my Dad has one of those on his fancy Powermatic..   I'll have to
>>> look.
>>
>> More than likely, the Powermatic's are quality saws.  But a recent lawsuit
>> has changed the landscape and caused lots of saw peddlers to do major
>> redesigns of their so called blade guards, usually (IMSNHO) even more
>> worthless than the ones of 5 years ago.  They still seem very adverse to
>> just plain using enough quality steel, but 2 pounds of fawncy plastic that
>> is always in the way seems to be their answer.  It seems to satisfy the
>> legal dept, but they are a legendary failure at understanding that if its
>> not installed when the saw is in use because it is such a pain in the ass
>> to use, then it is still an outright failure.  But its our fault for taking
>> it off.  Scroooem.
>>
>>> That does sound like a really good idea.
>>>
>>> That is entirely different than an anti kickback pawl.
>>>
>>> Dave
> I think my choice would be to make a carriage for the saw and try to
> keep my brain in place and not reach for  something I shouldn't.
>
> The idea of  power driving the carriage sound good also.
>
> Dave
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>>
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I spent a lot of years running  machine shops. Our old timey ideas on 
keeping people from loosing fingers and hands was two switches on the 
machine. One hand for each switch.  The electric break was always 
engaged by way of a mechanical locking devise.  If the electricals 
failed the cutter was locked or the punch press was locked. We had power 
feeds which all table saws should have if used for production work.
  It is my opinion that a hand fed table saw is not a suitable tool 
for production work unless it is power fed. with safty controls.  I can 
almost guarantee that if you use one long enough cutting hundreds of 
parts at some point you will loose at least one finger.  As a kid I 
worked at Owens yacht company building boats. You could always spot a 
wood shaper or saw operator, especially if they were older because they 
were all missing a finger or two.  This was in the days before law suits:-)
  
 Doug

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[Emc-users] axis set up problems

[Douglas Pollard]

I am trying to get my x,y and z axises set up in EMC.My stepper 
board is an Xylotex 4 axis but will only use three  for now.
   When I tried to test the axis i got  the following error message.
I recieved this message from each axis when i tried to run test.I 
don't yet have motors.  

Stepconf encountered an error.  The following information may be useful 
in troubleshooting:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/bin/stepconf", line 1372, in update_axis_params
halrun.flush()
IOError: [Errno 32] Broken pipe

I entered the terminal and copied in /user/bin/ stepconf/ from the above 
error.
I recieved the below message:
  
 /usr/bin/stepconf:876: Warning: g_path_get_dirname: assertion 
`file_name != NULL' failed
  self.xml = gtk.glade.xml_new_from_buffer(doc, len(doc), domain="axis")
/usr/bin/stepconf:876: GtkWarning: gdk_pixbuf_new_from_file: assertion 
`filename != NULL' failed
  self.xml = gtk.glade.xml_new_from_buffer(doc, len(doc), domain="axis")
/usr/bin/stepconf:876: Warning: g_object_unref: assertion `G_IS_OBJECT 
(object)' failed
  self.xml = gtk.glade.xml_new_from_buffer(doc, len(doc), domain="axis")
 
If someone can help me with this will appreciate it.  Thanks, Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] axis set up problems

[Douglas Pollard]

Douglas Pollard wrote:
> I am trying to get my x,y and z axises set up in EMC.My stepper 
> board is an Xylotex 4 axis but will only use three  for now.
>When I tried to test the axis i got  the following error message.
> I recieved this message from each axis when i tried to run test.I 
> don't yet have motors.  
>
> Stepconf encountered an error.  The following information may be useful 
> in troubleshooting:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/bin/stepconf", line 1372, in update_axis_params
> halrun.flush()
> IOError: [Errno 32] Broken pipe
>
> I entered the terminal and copied in /user/bin/ stepconf/ from the above 
> error.
> I recieved the below message:
>   
>  /usr/bin/stepconf:876: Warning: g_path_get_dirname: assertion 
> `file_name != NULL' failed
>   self.xml = gtk.glade.xml_new_from_buffer(doc, len(doc), domain="axis")
> /usr/bin/stepconf:876: GtkWarning: gdk_pixbuf_new_from_file: assertion 
> `filename != NULL' failed
>   self.xml = gtk.glade.xml_new_from_buffer(doc, len(doc), domain="axis")
> /usr/bin/stepconf:876: Warning: g_object_unref: assertion `G_IS_OBJECT 
> (object)' failed
>   self.xml = gtk.glade.xml_new_from_buffer(doc, len(doc), domain="axis")
>  
> If someone can help me with this will appreciate it.  Thanks, Doug
>
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>   
Hi All, I posted this the other day  and have not gotten any replies on 
it..  Would someone take a look at the above post and see if they can 
hazzard a guess.  I think someplace among my junk I have a video card 
and a sound card.  Would it seem a good idea to install them  to reduce 
the jitter numbers?There are two numbers that show up in the latency 
test, One is servo thread and the other is base thread which of these do 
I use in Step configuration?? 
   ThanksDoug

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[Emc-users] unshielded cable

[Douglas Pollard]

I bought some cable to run stepper motors off of.  I was told it was 
shielded.  It is not.  If I try to use this am I going to have problems 
caused by stray signals  or static?  Is it likely to be alright or am I 
looking for trouble??
 Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] unshielded cable

[Douglas Pollard]

Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On Sun, May 03, 2009 at 09:26:40AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>   
>> This I would do, if I ever have the problem.  I have also probed for contour 
>> several times and have not had any errors of more than a thou or two in the 
>> data.  This using the sliding tube opto-interrupter device one of the guys 
>> here gave me a link to when I asked about that a couple of years ago.  Home-
>> made of course. :)
>> 
>
> It's heartening to hear that it can be done without optos. 
>
> Since the link http://www.hedingrips.com/Dcp00470.jpg, posted by Dean
> Hedin on 25 April 2007, now gives error 404, I was wondering if my
> imaginings of a pair of concentric tubes with a hairline aperture,
> closing on contact, are anywhere like the real thing? (I'm trying to
> figure how to have enough light for the detector when open, yet shut
> with little probe motion. Or is it just that the movement to close the
> aperture is known, and can be subtracted?)
>
> Cheers,
> Erik
>
>   
 Thanks All,
I think I will use my wire for a doorbell or something. I don't need 
to add to the problems of getting my home made mill to run.
Thanks to all
  Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] Gear Tooth Profile

[Douglas Pollard]

Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-05-09 at 15:07 -0400, John Kasunich wrote:
>   
>> Kirk Wallace wrote:
>> 
> ... snip
>   
>> I assumed the rack
>> 
>>> base and top are horizontally midway between the rack center line and
>>> the 20 degree peaks, such that the X length of the rise, flats and falls
>>> are equal. Here is my rack and pitch circle:
>>>   
>> I think that assumption might not be valid.  I believe the height above
>> the pitch line, and the depth below the pitch line have names - addendum
>> and dedendum IIRC, and they are not necessarily equal to each other.  In
>> particular, for a pinion with a small tooth count like yours, the
>> dedendum is made less to avoid undercutting the teeth - the undercut
>> shows up in your last image.  That would result in weak teeth if the
>> gear was heavily stressed.
>> 
>
> A thought I had on this, is that for different gears of the same pitch
> to work together they need to have the same base rack form. Since a gear
> and it's mate can be derived from the top or bottom of the base rack
> form, the base form should be symmetrical. A non-symmetrical base form
> could be used, but I think the gear pair will only work with its
> original mate. Actually, the more I think, the rack base and top lines
> don't even count, because the mesh zone is well within these limits. I
> could do the derivation again with a sawtooth instead of a trapezoidal
> form. I suspect the way to adjust the addendum/dedendum is with pressure
> angle, but this is just a hunch at this point. I think I have enough to
> make what I need, so I'm not sure how far I'll get on this issue. Some
> engineers have made a life on these matters, I've only got spare time.
>
>   
>>> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/gears/rack_and_pitch_circle.png 
>>> (Short URL) http://alturl.com/7t8a
>>>
>>> The first pinion tooth form guess is the complementary shape of the rack
>>>   
> ... snip
>   
>>> The problem is, have I made any mistakes? Is there a better, easier way?
>>>   
>> I think your derivation of the shape is correct.  There is probably a
>> mathematically purer way (one that doesn't involve small increments of
>> motion that you then blend into the form).  But I like your way better.
>> 
>
> Wikipedia covers the involute equations, but I suspect the mesh points
> are not on obvious function points.
>
>   
>> Note that what you did on paper is what happens in metal when you hob a
>> gear.  Imagine that your rack is actually one side of an acme threaded
>> 
> ... snip
>
> My one real CNC employer had an old gear hob machine. The problem was it
> was easy to stand and watch it, right through your break. Another
> problem was that when the guy that runs it retires, the machine gets
> scrapped.
>
>   
>> The other approach is to buy a gear cutter with the proper form.  Note
>> that unlike a hob (which can be used to cut gears with any number of
>> teeth), a gear cutter is designed for a specific range of teeth.  I
>> think there is usually a set of 8 to cut everything from 12 tooth
>> pinions thru many tooth gears up to a rack (basically a gear with an
>> infinite number of teeth).
>> 
>
> Gear cutting tools are too expensive for me since I usually need one or
> a few of each. Having a way to make any gear without special tooling
> would be a big plus. One reason I am looking at a 2m - 10mm gear is that
> I can use a .063" end mill to cut a thin version.
>   
It has been my understanding that the number eight cutter will cut a 
gear with 12 and 13 teeth. If you get below 12 teeth there has to be 
undercutting for the teeth to run right without chafing against each 
other.   I would think that a 10 tooth gear would need to be generated  
with a hob or a gear shaper.   There was some information on the South 
Bend lathe list where a fellow claimed that a perfect generated tooth 
for can be cut by useing a tap running on the perifery of a gear blank 
and feeding across the face. The blank is left to freewheel and be 
pulled around by the tap.  He claims it makes a perfect tooth???
   Doug

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[Emc-users] Jitter problem

[Douglas Pollard]

I bought a used IBM Think Centre 3 ghz. intel chip that after a latency 
test proved to be useless  in running EMC2.   I also have an Hp   dual 
core  64 bit  machine that is my personal desktop machine. 2.4 ghz  1 g 
ram I thought EMC2 would not run on it. I recently saw someplace on line 
saying it could run on one of the chips but not both. Does anyone know 
anything about this.  I really don't want to go looking for another used 
computer.
 Doug

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[Emc-users] almost for how helpful

[Douglas Pollard]

I recently posted an e-mail to this list and also posted an e-mail 
to another list about the proprietary CNC software that is discussed 
there as I have the choice to use either.
Here I got several thoughtful answers there I got none. They are 
nice people on that other list and seem to try to be helpful. It dawned 
on me that they simply don't know anything about the software they are 
using or the windows program it's running on.
I find myself felling pretty dumb in the face of a lot of superior 
knowledge here on these Linux groups,thenI think about most of the  
Windows user I know who haven't got a clue.
This list alone makes running EMC2  a worthwhile endevour. It is not 
everyday in life that you run across a bunch of people who help each 
other and help others as goes on here. Anyway everyone involved here 
deserves a little well earned praise. 
 
Thanks All,
 
  Doug
 

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Re: [Emc-users] Gear Tooth Profile

[Douglas Pollard]

Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-05-09 at 11:45 -0700, Kirk Wallace wrote:
>   
>> I would like to make gears, but I need to know the tooth shape in order
>> to make a form tool or cut an outline. This is what I came up with, if
>> there are any mistakes or bad assumptions, please let me know.
>>
>> I referenced:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear 
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involute_gear 
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involute 
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rack_and_pinion 
>>
>> My example gear is a 2m(module) pitch - 20mm.
>>
>> A sample is on this page:
>> http://www.qtcgears.com/RFQ/default.asp?Page=../KHK/newgears/KHK044.html 
>> (Short URL) http://alturl.com/whp2 
>>
>> Pitch is the tooth length, but expressed in pitch circle diameter, so a
>> 
> ... snip
>
> Dooh, I've had my Dad's Machinery's Handbook for almost twenty years and
> it hadn't occurred to me until now to see if there is any gear
> information it. It seems to cover everything I've been trying to hash
> out the last few days, including the ANSI 20 degree rack form. The
> gearing section is about four hundred pages, fortunately, about ten or
> fifteen cover what I need. One problem is my 1971 edition doesn't cover
> metric gears, so if anyone has any leads to the metric standards, I'd
> appreciate hearing from you. I suppose I could just buy a current
> edition.
>
> I found another interesting link here:
> http://science.howstuffworks.com/gear8.htm
>
>
>   
My 1974,  19th Edition, Machinerys handbook, has British metric 
standards but they may be different. Their threads are. Seems everyone 
wanted to go metric, but they just wanted their own metric standards.

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Re: [Emc-users] Gear Tooth Profile

[Douglas Pollard]

Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-05-12 at 14:21 -0400, Douglas Pollard wrote:
>   
>> Kirk Wallace wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sat, 2009-05-09 at 11:45 -0700, Kirk Wallace wrote:
>>>   
>>>   
>>>> I would like to make gears, but I need to know the tooth shape in order
>>>> 
> ...snip  
>   
>> My 1974,  19th Edition, Machinerys handbook, has British metric 
>> standards but they may be different. Their threads are. Seems everyone 
>> wanted to go metric, but they just wanted their own metric standards.
>> 
>
> I cruised Amazon.com, they have the 28th Edition for $66. It would
> probably the best CNC dollars I could spend. They appear to offer a
> limited number of any pages in the book as a preview, so I get a good
> start there. It's funny that eBay 28th Edition prices are much higher.
>
> I think a gear designer would be a great cloud computing application.
>   
Most likely the info you want is in the 28th edition.  Fully 90 % of the 
info you will need in the coming years is in the edition you have. I 
don't know where to tell you to look but the metric gear info is out 
there somewhere for little or no money.  As to the Machinerys hand book 
my father had ,I think, the 6th edition , my older brother had the 11th 
About 1939. and my first one was the 13th edition about 1958 they all 
had mostly the same info though there were additions and deletions as 
new things came along and old ones became obsolete. My brothers son now 
is the proud owner of all three editions he is also a machinist.  What 
ever you do keep the old book.  I call my nephew from time to time and 
ask him to look up something in the old books.  Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] almost for how helpful

[Douglas Pollard]

Mark Wendt (Contractor) wrote:
> They were my favorite machines to sysadmin!
>
> Mark
>
> At 10:21 AM 5/13/2009, you wrote:
>   
>> Anyone that likes/liked  Digital products can't be a bad guy. I still
>> have a couple of 11's tucked away.
>>
>> Dave
>> On May 13, 2009, at 7:12 AM, Mark Wendt (Contractor) wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> Just kidding...  ;-)
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> At 09:59 AM 5/13/2009, you wrote:
>>>   
 Hey! Those Volvo's were good to me. Driving the 122 108 hp I could
 hit the bottom the the Vantage grade (carrying 2  250 lb passengers)
 at 85 and come out the top at 85 12 mi later; only 2000 ft of
 elevation gain.  Not bad for 1800 cc.
 I added a homebuilt 6 v SCR ignition to the 544 and added 2 mpg.

 Dave
 On May 13, 2009, at 2:24 AM, Mark Wendt (Contractor) wrote:

 
> Driving a Volvo almost qualifies you for riff-raff...  ;-)
>
> Mark
>
> At 02:07 PM 5/12/2009, you wrote:
>   
>> For us not natives, what is "riff raff"? Tried to google it, maybe
>> means
>> plebeian or so?
>> Anyway, I drive an old Volvo.
>> 
>
>
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>   
Yes and it had a good engine. I built a boat and put an engine out of 
one of them in it.  That was years a ago  the guy who now owns it says 
the engine is still rattleing along.
Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] TechShop

[Douglas Pollard]

Marty Swartz wrote:
> I think it's a dynamite idea: I wish they had one in Pittburgh. (I've been
> in contact with them, and someday.  All I need is a rich ehough friend to
> make it NOW. )  Just think of walking in having access to all that gear,
> rather than having to buy your own eqipment, etc, etc, etc.  Word is that
> they are trying to grow to more locations.
>
> I'd argue that with the economy in its current craptastic shape, we'll be
> better off if more people can get access to tools to help them do
> grass-roots innovation. Bush 41 talked about "a thousand points of light",
> perhaps now it's time for "a thousand garages of light".
>
> Marty the Zealot
>
> Here's the direct URL:   http://techshop.ws/
>
> On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Kirk Wallace
> wrote:
>
>   
>> This seems like a good idea. I don't know if they can make money at it
>> though.
>>
>> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/cls/1163029439.html
>>
>>
>> 
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>   
I have been to the site and like it a lot.  It has been tried before 
though the first I heard was in WWII  and some years later maybe in the 
70's  but there was no internet back then so thet were hardly know 
about.  Those places wound up being job shops, one of them was still 
operating a few years ago.
I have written emails to senators who claim to be interested in 
auntapanurial  help for the economy.  I kept telling them it's going on 
right under their noses on the internet with Gnu  and cheap software 
with little shops making motor controllers to be used on  throw away 
computers with older machines and cheaper new ones and Blaa Blaa  and so 
on.  Then I stopped.First I got no answers and a good friend said 
yes keep writing them and the next thing is they will want to regulate 
it all. You better shut up!  So I did!  Now I hope my e-mails got 
lost.   Doug

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[Emc-users] synergy

[Douglas Pollard]

I downloaded synergy and really like what I am seeing.  Did a little 
conversational programing in Synergy lite.  I think it will be perfect 
for a doing some one off parts  or modifying some parts bought to be 
changed and used. The price is right $89.95 I will play with it a week 
and If I don't see something that turns me off I will buy it.  Also drew 
a couple simple parts in cad.  Good stuff I think !
 Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] synergy

[Douglas Pollard]

Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-05-21 at 16:35 -0400, Douglas Pollard wrote:
>   
>> I downloaded synergy and really like what I am seeing.  Did a little 
>> conversational programing in Synergy lite.  I think it will be perfect 
>> for a doing some one off parts  or modifying some parts bought to be 
>> changed and used. The price is right $89.95 I will play with it a week 
>> and If I don't see something that turns me off I will buy it.  Also drew 
>> a couple simple parts in cad.  Good stuff I think !
>>  Doug
>> 
>
> One caveat, the license key is a code that is made from a number from
> your particular PC, which you submit to Synergy. They use this number to
> make the key code, which they give you to enter into your software.
> Basically, you end up calling Synergy, whenever you change the PC you
> want to run Synergy on. If this might not be convenient for you, beware.
>   
Thanks Kirk, That's good information.  I probably don't mind as long as 
they don't tell me I can't run it on a second computer or if my machine 
or mother board gives up I'm not expected to buy a new copy to install 
with a different key.
I have a computer in the house and will use the other one to run my 
machines out in the shop. I don't want to buy it twice.
 Doug

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[Emc-users] [Fwd: Re: [mach1mach2cnc] Open Sourcing the 5/6-axis CNC-Toolkit]

[Douglas Pollard]

Hi all,
   I took the attached post off of the Mach2 e-mail list.  Apparently 
this fellow has built a cad cam system and would like make it open 
source. I don't know enough to advise him but maybe some her could join 
that list and post some good advice to him that would be helpful. If 
this attachment does not show up on list let me know and I will copy and 
past his email and post it.
   
ThanksDoug
--- Begin Message ---
I would help in some way.  I use 3 and 4 axis  machines.  I don't use a
cam package.  I program everything by finding the points in Autocad.  I
have been building a small unit that could be 5or 6 axis.  I have also
read your post for several years and have always been interested.

 

-Original Message-
From: mach1mach2...@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:mach1mach2...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rainnea
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 3:50 AM
To: mach1mach2...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [mach1mach2cnc] Open Sourcing the 5/6-axis CNC-Toolkit

 






In view of the discussion on looking for discounted CAM software, how
about free ?
As it happens, I've been thinking it's about time to release the source
code for my my 5/6-axis CNC-Toolkit as I'm sure that many users would
benefit from from this and I really don't have the time to provide
proper support.

Basically, I'd like to enable it to grow as a user-community project
with any changes shared and being added to back into the Toolkit. I'd
also be happy for my work to be used in another open-source project.

Any thoughts from anyone as to the best open-source license to use ?
and any ideas as to the best way to host and project-manage this ?

thank you,
Rab
__
www.cnc-toolkit.com 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- End Message ---
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Re: [Emc-users] Mill-Drill needs steppers and servos?

[Douglas Pollard]

Andy Pugh wrote:
> 2009/6/9 Frank Tkalcevic :
>   
>> How much "backlash" would the rubber teeth on the belt contribute?
>> 
>
> "Some" I guess. Though it might matter less than you think. In fact,
> that thought has been occurring to me throughout this thread. There
> has been a lot of concern over absolute accuracy, when repeatability
> is probably more important in the real world. I can't think of many
> things where dimensions over a couple of feet have been important to a
> few thousandths, and in cases where they are, if the two parts are
> made on the same machine then they will  fit anyway. (And it has been
> a source of some frustration to me watching machinists fretting over
> the last n-th of accuracy on a part I wanted yesterday, and where I
> have specified +/- 5mm "I don't care" accuracy. )
>
> Similarly with a resilient belt or "springy" ballnut, it will always
> sit in the same place for the same cutting force, so if you have a
> light finishing cut you will probably get better accuracy than the
> ballscrew spec suggests. (or even if you have a consistent roughing
> cut)
>
> You will, however, probably get more chatter and vibration, but then a
> visco-elastic element might damp vibration that would be there in a
> fully rigid system.
>
> (Note, I am not a machinist, I am not even really an engineer, but I
> play one on the internet)
>
>   
I seems to me that there is little or no pressure on the screw or belt 
when roughing because you are generally climb milling. If there is to be 
a load on the belt or screw it will be when finishing when you are 
usually conventional milling or when excellerating and decelating. Any 
load there will be on screw or belt is when the cutter tries to pull 
itself into the work. I think this may be where a screw has an 
advantage. A good machinist climbemills as much as he can to take the 
load off the gearing.  This assumes a climb milling attachment on a 
manual machine.
Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] Mill-Drill needs steppers and servos?

[Douglas Pollard]

Andy Pugh wrote:
> 2009/6/10 Jack Coats :
>
>   
>> Most of us are just trying to 'get-er-done', so working within 'practical
>> tollerances'
>> for 'practical solutions', is probably the most helpful.
>> 
>
> Absolutely, I posted a rather longer message on pretty much that subject.
>
>   
If You run a big milling machine with maybe 100 horsepower motor 
swinging 16 inch face mills you can watch the horse power draw and it is 
way higher on a conventional cut than on a climb cut. The heat that the 
cutter generates Is less too. Fifty inches of feed has the same effect 
as reducing spindle speed by 50 surface inches per minute. Conventional 
milling in effect increases surface feet on the rotation of the cutter 
and generates more heat. What would put a load on a belt is if the the 
cutter jerks the table back against the belt which it is prone to do. 
That will momentarily stretch the belt. For this reason I have doubts as 
to how good a belt drive is on a mill. On a lathe it would seem to be ok 
as you are never climb cutting.
Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] Mill-Drill needs steppers and servos?

[Douglas Pollard]

Andy Pugh wrote:
> 2009/6/10 Jack Coats :
>
>   
>> Most of us are just trying to 'get-er-done', so working within 'practical
>> tollerances'
>> for 'practical solutions', is probably the most helpful.
>> 
>
> Absolutely, I posted a rather longer message on pretty much that subject.
>
>   
I think the biggest crimes, in  working too close is concerned is 
committed buy young and inexperienced engineers.  If they don't know how 
sloppy a thing can be the tendency is to tighten everything up in very 
close tolerances. It also allows bragging rights as to who is doing the 
finest work.
On a cnc machine the accuracy is always from some starting point. If 
you want to hold a center distance between two gear centers. 
In such a case accuracy back to the home point has to  be  too  .0005 or 
better to hold a center distance between the two gears to .001.
A machinist could run a worn out machine and still hold the center 
distance between gear centers a cnc machine needs a high level of 
accuracy to hold tolerances between cuts or hole centers.  There is 
almost no advantage in having wide open tolerances on a part  with cnc  
the machine if in any kind of shape at all will hold  pretty tight 
tolerance anyway.
 
Doug


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Re: [Emc-users] Mill-Drill needs steppers and servos?

[Douglas Pollard]

Steve Blackmore wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:06:57 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>   
>> Any case a flex of .02 would be unacceptable for us. We do not see
>> that kind of flex. It's really around 0.005 .
>> The belts are european steel cable loaded AT5 belts 3/4 wide and
>> driven on AL pulley's.
>> 
>
> Ooohh look! -  somebody with experience who's actually been there and
> done it too 
>
> I've give up arguing with pedantic theorists, they always know better,
> I'll just get back to doing it too at about +/-0.001 ;)
>
> Steve Blackmore
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>   
I try my best to say what I think about a subject and then when someone 
disagrees or gives a reason it won't work, to just keep my mouth shut. 
After all I have said what I think why elaborate on it?   It's hard 
though. I have years of machine shop experience some in cnc but it does 
not always translate to a guy running a small cnc machine in his home 
workshop.
  Doug
  

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Re: [Emc-users] Mill-Drill needs steppers and servos?

[Douglas Pollard]

Rainer Schmidt wrote:
>> I did once have the job of "machining" glass to 0.0001mm but that was
>> done with an Ion Mill so doesn't really count.
>> 
>
> I default into Inches However, I am a metric guy who is constantly
> annoyed by the US imperial system.
> fractions of inches, 12 per foot, three per yard and 95% of the
> population do not know how many feet are in a mile.
> And 99% mistake the decimal system with the metric system.
> The other 1% are on this list or otherwise in the 'building stuff'
> business haha.
>
> Any case already at .001 inches temperature has it's go. At least
> with aluminum. i remember breaking out in panic when I milled my first
> pieces on the bridgeport I have and the part seemed to grow every time
> I cut a hair off the plate I tried to dimension... It was the work
> light heating up the plate... hahaha. What a surprise. And a healthy
> reminder to 'ignore' the last digits of my expensive caliper. recently
> I bought a cheap chinese digital caliper. I feel less concerned, and
> the motor mount holes still fit 8))).
>
> .0001mm... can't imagine how steady you have to temper everything
> around that thing... How do you position that? Piezo?
>
> Precison where precision is due...
>
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>   
I am a imperial guy who is annoyed with the metric system. I have worked 
in metric a lot but still don't know what a meter looks like except that 
it close to a yard.  To me a MM  is .039 approx and a little bigger than 
1/32 of an inch.   Centimeters?  Forget about that!  Machine shop work 
here in the states has all been in mm  so what the heck is 764 mm, 1200 
mm  what the heck is the rime  or reason to that.  I guess that was 
intended to make it easy for us dumb machinist   that aren't capable of 
using centimeters, so now we unwashed ones don't even know what a 
centimeter is :'(
  Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] Mill-Drill needs steppers and servos?

[Douglas Pollard]

Rainer Schmidt wrote:
>> I believe that the proposed silicon sphere Avagadro/kg standard is
>> 95mm +/- 30nm, which is a truly impressive bit of manufacturing.
>> http://www.acpo.csiro.au/spheres.htm
>>
>> 
>
> Owww I LOVE shiny stuff.. that sphere looks marvelous. I could
> not take my hand of it all day 8).
>
> And yes, that is a marvel.
>
> Speaking of marvel To eliminate backlash and try something new at
> the same time I am setting up my old bridgeport with a new belt I got.
> It's a 2.5 timing belt with very fine teeth and it's 3 inches wide. If
> that flexes I don't really wish to be around because the 'reason' of
> that flex would be something to behold from a distance. To drive it I
> will direct drive it with a servo and a backlash free cycloidal
> gearbox which I found on that show in New York for an affordable
> price. The ratio is 1:30 and the experiment will be done this summer.
> If it works, it will be a great alternative to a ball screw with all
> it's hidden issues. Right now I have very little to 0.125 backlash on
> the X axis. Which makes a very messed up and dangerous operation. I
> can only cut conventional in one direction or it will eat my
> breakfast, bit, and material. Time to toss it or overhaul the screw
> section...
> R
>
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That sphere and the accuracy is something.  So here it comes :-)  While 
working in a ball bearing research and development shop I found my self 
with nothing to do and was looking at the imperfections in a high grade 
ball under a microscope and was amazed a the craters in it.   I picked 
up a diamond scriber and scratched my name on it. I showed it to some 
others who were amazed a couple of engineers looked at it and we talked 
about what your fingers could do if your eyes could fool them into 
thinking it was big.  We did some experiments and what we decided was 
that fingers must be the most accurate thing on earth.   It some point 
the writing gets pretty feeble looking but is still ledgeable.   One of 
the engineers did a write up on this off the wall project for some 
engineering magazine. Every one in the plant from manager on down looked 
at the signatures on the ball and everyone was intrigued.  The ball 
wound up in a mount on the president of the companies desks under a 
microscope I guess as a conversation piece.
 
   Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] Metricks - Mill-Drill needs steppers and servos?

[Douglas Pollard]

Dirk wrote:
> I am 100% metric and I hate it when I have to work with imperial  
> parts. If I have a choice I will never take the imperial parts.  
> Especially if it is not only about dimensions but also some heat,  
> power or whatever awkward unit they come up with. It is asking for  
> trouble with all these conversion factors. I really don't see why  
> anyone would prefer to work with Btu/hour, or horsepower, you name it.  
> In SI you can just calculate without any conversion numbers. But this  
> was about dimensions.
> Dimensioning with it is not really hard, you only need to remember to  
> multiply or divide by 25.4 every now and then. But, the only advantage  
> I can think of was the british system, it probably has an official  
> name. It works with fractions and this makes threading, gears and  
> divisions a lot easier to calculate. Why is this something that is/was  
> used in the UK but not in the states? Or are there really big  
> disadvantages? To me, it seemed really handy when you are behind a  
> machine. I haven't done a lot of work with it so I can't really judge  
> how it is for real work.
>
> Dirk
>
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 I can look at a cutter and tell you pretty close how many surface 
ft per minute it is running.   How many mm is that a minute  and if I 
knew , would I really know what that is?  Thank God we don't have metric 
time I guess it would have to be based on how many kilometers it is 
around the world and so on and on.  Just kidding about the time!
 Since about 1970 in the machine shops here in the states there have 
been almost no fractions used in dimensioning.  Drill sizes and taps are 
the exceptions.  The tolerance have been such that a three placed 
decimal denotes +or--  .005  A two place decimal denotes  plus or minus 
.20  a one place decimal equals plus or minus .100. Then comes the 
unless otherwise specified note. The scales I use don't have fractions 
on them at all.
 Now days everybody says the can hold .0001 on a hole diameter or 
location and that doesn't mean anything where the assembly of a machine 
is concerned. To  work, the hole has to be round to way less than .0001 
it has to be perpendicular  with in some very very small dimension and 
that depends on how deep the hole is.  Since cad, very few fractions are 
used except by those who ignore the standards or in the building trades  
where almost no decimals are used. Fractions are a relic of the past. 
Metrics are no easier to work with in my opinion than decimals of an 
inch. They are both very simple!  The only people I know that make the 
claim that metrics are easier are people that use them.  If you use 
anything long enough it becomes your standard.
I have argued this with many German machinists and they always come 
back that metric is scientific measurement because it is a part of the 
circumference of the world.  That may matter to a map maker but I don't 
see how it matters to and engineer or a machinist.  I bet nobody on this 
list uses any fractions when using EMC.  The truth is, at this time we 
are using both and any one who can't use both only knows half his job.
  Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] Metric?

[Douglas Pollard]

cmg...@sover.net wrote:
> Reducing metric to a decimal system only,is missing the point.
> The metric system is BASE TEN.  An important distinction from imperial.
> The units of both metric and imperial could be considered arbitrary as
> most seem to change with refinement and our ability to divide and measure
> to greater precision.
>
> You know a 1/4 hector is a good size for a garden!
>
> Just my two cents  (US Money gets to base ten before the amount becomes
> significant;-)
>
> Cal Grandy
>
>
>
>
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But what difference does base 10 make to a guy running a cnc machine??  
I'm sure it makes a difference from some  scientific perspective but we 
are making parts.  It seems to me that it is the job of engineers, 
designers and scientist to design them. After that his job is to 
discribe in the best possible way and dimension and draw them in such a 
way that we as machinists, can make them.  It is not important how he 
would like to do it but only that he can get his ideas across to the 
person who is going to make the parts.   The moment the communication 
becomes about the designer's preferences the connection is lost quality 
goes down and  cost goes up.No matter how great the engineer if he 
does not comunicate in the best possible way the machinist or machine 
operators all need to go get a degree. It is all about communication and 
what ever system communicates the best is the answer.  This is at least 
how it seems to me. The burden is on the communicator to make his wants 
understood.  A qualified machinist  should be able to look at a drawing 
a few minutes and only look back at the drawing now and then to check a 
dimention.  I feel I have worn this subject out.  I'm sure others do not 
see this from my point of view at all and so this is only my 
perspective.Doug

 

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Re: [Emc-users] Metric?

[Douglas Pollard]

Rainer Schmidt wrote:
> I can vouch for the problems the us imperial system is creating.
> There is not a single day in a custom shop I know off where there are
> no parts messed up because of conversion problems which simply would
> not exist with the metric system. Instead of simply shifting the
> decimal point one has to be aware of the 12 the 3 and the fractions to
> the respective decimals. At time the US imperial unit system is like a
> rubics cube which has to be solved before the emergency exit can be
> opened compared to a button you can press blindly. I know I am
> exaggerating but the pile of little cut off's next to the chop saw is
> telling a story. It's the 'Doh' pile.
> Rainer
>
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There are American standards for threads, gears and other things 
like bolts etc. These are fixed  and in every case  are determined by 
best practices.
  The Germans have have a set of metric standards the English have 
ISO standards and the Spanish have still another. 
We here in the US have come closer to standardizing the metric 
system for screw threads than anyone in the world.  We specify a metric 
screw and never say which standard, as a rule the the machinist makes it 
to one of the three.  The Chinese don't work to any standards and at the 
same time they try to work to everyones. 
   Imperial bolts are designed to break before the threads pull out 
of the parent metal.  The best thread pitch is picked for the bolt 
diameter to achive this partially by having a smaller or larger root 
diameter.
   Europeans after WWII  tried to copy this into the metric system 
for bolts and did a pretty good job.   
 I am not sure this is true but I was told in apprentice school 
that prior to then they only had fine threads and determined whether the 
threads would strip out in the parent metal  buy how deep the thread 
was.  To a degree we do the same if the bolt and drilled an tapped whole 
are not in the same kind of metal. For example,   a hardened steel bolt 
and  a drilled and tapped hole in an aluminum engine block.
 The first rule in mechanical design is no sharp corners.  Dig 
some bolts out of the drawer and look at them the all have sharp v 
threads they are not to any standard.  Every standard in the world calls 
for a radius or truncation in the root of the thread.  As a result 
nobody can calculate the strength of the bolt.
 The metric thread system is a kind one size fits all. There are 
only a couple threads for each size. Very convient but there is a reason 
we have so many threads and that is they all serve different purposes.  
The metric system has traditionally put more concerned itself with 
fitting the threads into a convient metric system instead of being the 
best thread pitch for the job.
   Since the metric system uses decimal places the same as we do 
I don't see where it's any easyier to use than imperial.   Most of the 
fractions come into play because a machinist says in his own mind .493 
Hmm that's about a half inch.  More than likely a half inch shows up on 
a drawing as .5   or .50 or .500  it's all the same thing.  It sounds 
like an excuse to me that a guy cut a piece of steel wrong because there 
were three decimal places instead of one.   Does he also mistake a 
centimeter for a millimeter? 
 Most parts are dimentioned on cad why in the heck would 
anyone be using fractions  on cad cam?  
 So if metric is not standard the world over and imperial is 
not why are we knocking ourselves out over this. 
 For me this is not really about metrics or imperial. I 
think  a huge majority of Americans think that anything that takes place 
in Europe is somehow wonderful.   We are ashamed to drive an American 
car, just not enough prestige. What ever it is if it's US made it is 
somehow  inferior to European.  Their parliamentary governments are 
better, their health care is better, and we Americans are crude and 
unwashed. 
  This of course is not a scientific argument it's a 
machinists argument and an American argument and they are both real , 
says me.
 Geeze, I have finally worked my way  around to my pet 
peeve.  I guess this is really where I'm coming from :-) 
  
  Sorry guys, I started to delete this whole thing and changed my 
mind as there might be something here  for somebody .
Doug

-

Re: [Emc-users] Metric?

[Douglas Pollard]

Andy Pugh wrote:
> 2009/6/12 Douglas Pollard :
>
>   
>>  The Germans have have a set of metric standards the English have
>> ISO standards and the Spanish have still another.
>> 
>
> I _think_ that DIN (German) BS( British) JIS (Japanes) and the rest
> have all converged on ISO (Inrternational) but I might be wrong.
>
>   
>>   Imperial bolts are designed to break before the threads pull out
>> of the parent metal.  The best thread pitch is picked for the bolt
>> diameter to achive this partially by having a smaller or larger root
>> diameter.
>> 
>
> Ah, but you eschewed the One True Thread angle (Whitworth 55 degrees),
> rounding up to 60 degrees, which has a fractionally less optimum ratio
> of self-locking to tension.
>
> The least useful standard I have come across is UNF, which seems
> designed to seize irretrievably at the first hint of corrosion. In
> contrast I have dismantled bits of old commercial vehicles left in
> fields for 70 years where the hexes on the (Whitworth) nuts were half
> their original size, and they just unscrewed like normal (once we
> found a random socket that nearly fitted)
>
> This might be a good time to point you at my "Thread identification
> table" which lists all the threads from all the standards I could find
> at the time in the same table, in size order. In retrospect I omitted
> the metric sizes below 3mm, and similarly many of the smaller American
> sizes.
> http://www.bodgesoc.org/thread_dia_pitch.html
> (You can click the headers to link to lists sorted differently)
>
>   
Andy that's a nice chart I will bookmark it on both of my computers.  I 
notice the ISO metric threads are also 60 degrees which was kind of 
surprising since as far as I know Britain came up with it in the first 
place.   Someplace in the Machinerys hand book, I think there is a 
notation on  why 55 deg and why 60 degrees.  I just looked but can't 
find it.  Maybe it was in an older version.  I would have never 
considered that either angle would be locking. I always thought down 
around 7 degrees might be locking. Any way haven't thought about it in 
long time, so I don't know.  Now, I am now curious.
 
Doug





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Re: [Emc-users] Metricks - Mill-Drill needs steppers and servos?

[Douglas Pollard]

Rainer Schmidt wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 5:26 PM, Andy Pugh wrote:
>   
>> 2009/6/12  :
>>
>> 
>>> My Favorite unit
>>>   
>
> In Germany we also use Angstrom per Millennium as Bureaucratic Unit. I
> observe similar speeds in the US. There seems to be some cross
> contamination in between processes.
>
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My favorite unit is not a unit at all. It's instructions on a drawing 
that used to mean something to  machinist. Such as: "Machine In a 
workman like manner"  which I think meant to make it like a machinist 
and not like a jack legged mechanic.   
Another was written on a drawing with dimensions and no tolerance 
but said, "Make to fit and function".  God help the guy that tried to 
make a spare part to the drawing. 
 Another thing often on a drawing was the bolt size length thread 
pitch and so on.  The position of the holes to be tapped was given but 
know depths. The machinist was expected to now how deep they should be.  
A steel bolt that was to go into as steel housing was to be tapped to 
the diameter of the bolt.  That was the correct thread length plus a 
little :-)  This to allow the bolt to break before stripping the thread. 
If the  housing was aluminum the machinist new the course thread was to 
be two times the bolt diameter. This again to allow the bolt to break.
 No depth dimension was ever put on a tap drilled hole because you 
had likely ground a new lead on your tap when it was needed. The 
engineer didn't  know how long the lead was so it was up to the machinist. 
The only notation on the tap drilled hole other than location might 
be "drill through or through drill".  A tolerance was given on bolt hole 
location but no hole size, the machinist knew what size hole and counter 
bore based on location tolerance.
In my opinion this was a huge complement and show of respect for the 
ability and knowledge of journeyman machinists.  Often you were given a 
shaft size and told what class fit the bore was to be without a dimension.
I ran a shop with 30 machinists in it.  The only time I ever told a 
machinist how to do a job was if someone else was to do some other 
operations on it and most of my guys didn't even need that help.  I darn 
sure didn't hold back though if I didn't like the job he did or how long 
it took.  Each of them had a couple of apprentices.  
When I hired a kid in the shop he served a four year apprentice ship 
when he finished he was a second class machinist. After six years five 
or six years he was first class  and was expected to take on an 
apprentice that he hired.  In nine or ten years he was a master 
machinist had a two machinists working for him and each of the 
machinists had a second class machinist and several apprentice boys. All 
these guys had a small gerstner toolbox which I gave them when the 
finished their appenticeship. the older guys almost never quite though 
some of the youg ones did when their apprenticeship was over..  I lot of 
the boys quit the first and second year. 
Most of these master machinist worked directly with Nassa engineers 
and were very respected by them. They made wind tunnel models, stings 
and space mock ups and some things that went into space. The made steam 
turbine rotors for Battleships, spare blades,   babbitt bearings  and 
some bearings  for propeller shafts 26 inch bores, babbitt lined. 
These guys now own and run the shop. It is smaller in size but still 
makes them a good living. I am retired.
The story about Nassa making one part metric an the other imperial 
was tongue in cheek. The imperial dimensioned on the part  had metric 
bearings in it. We worked on that part and we made the arm on the first 
Mars Lander :-[   The one that didn't work. 
What they did do for a short time was to dimension in inches but 
they represented metric dimensions.  They only did that for a short time 
as they slowly converted and the builders ,mechanics and machinists got 
used to working in metrics.  Mistakes ran rampant during that period.
 
 Doug


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Re: [Emc-users] Metricks - Mill-Drill needs steppers and servos?

[Douglas Pollard]

Rainer Schmidt wrote:
>> Nobody was allowed to do any unsupervised work for the first 2-3 years,
>> then after that they still had to have all their work checked and signed
>> off until they qualified.
>> 
>
> What happened in the meantime? After a few rather catastrophic
> experiences I (computer geek gone bad...) bought a used bridgeport
> mill and a soutbend lathe which was definitely used to build stuff for
> the US marine so that they can shoot holes into my grandfathers ships
> and build a complex CNC machine within 6 month. It doesn't mean I
> mastered it by any means but I can operate is safely, make quality
> parts, and enjoy learning more about it every day. There  is not a
> single kid within a mile from where I live in NJ which actually knows
> what a lathe is... or a mill. But of course... what an X-Box is. I
> wonder what one can earn with a degree in game pad wanking.
>
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>   
I have a grandson who grew up messing with building and using 
computers.  His father is a programmer so he has been a good teacher,  
My grandson programs CNC machines for the furniture industry and has a 
good reputation in the local industry.   He now does his work  from home 
doing cnc programing for several different company's.
About a year ago be began doing metal milling and turning in his 
backyard shop and has a couple products that he sells.  Him and his wife 
together do very well.  The problem is he has no background in  metal 
work.E-mails fly fast and furiouser between him and I  with me doing 
what  I can to give appropriate advice .  He works only in metric and 
hates imperial anything.
   My years of experience for the most part are irrelevant today. 
Even programing in G codes as we did for a long time, is near useless 
now where industry is concerned.
   When helping my grandson it is hard for me to not go on with 
long useless tales of how we used to do it and  at the same time pass on 
useful information about metal working.
   Still all in all, a little knowledge about the history and 
traditions of any craft can be a good thing. 
 At 75 years old I am just now learning cad and cad cam. I have 
a lathe, a home made mill and I am converting it to cnc.  So most of you 
guys are light years ahead of me even if you are just starting with cnc.
  The really good news about all this all my grand and great 
grand children think I am the greatest grand pop there ever was, because 
I can talk technology with them.  I make little short videos and send 
them and they love it.
 
Doug
 
Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] Roles in the manufacturing chain (was Metriks)

[Douglas Pollard]

Jon Elson wrote:
> Andy Pugh wrote:
>   
>> Most of the dimensions for the general geometry were +/- 0.2mm except
>> for the flexural element, which was 0.2mm +/- 0.05mm dimensioned from
>> a face with a stacked-up positional tolerance of about 0.4mm.
>> The machinist set up his CNC mill to the centre value of each
>> tolerance starting from a part edge and pressed "go". When the program
>> finished the flexural element was not even there.
>>
>> Who was at fault? I argued that the wider tolerances elsewhere in the
>> geometry were specifically so that they could get the flexure right,
>> they said "You always work to mid-tolerance, and the drawing should
>> assume that"
>>   
>> 
> Well, if the drawing showed metal to be there, and there was no metal in 
> that position,
> then the part did not match the drawing.  How can they argue with that?
>
> Now, if the dimensions were in some way wrong, so you cut one side, flip 
> it, cut the
> other side and there's nothing left, because the drawing instructs them 
> to mill more than
> half the thickness from both sides, that's an inconsistent drawing, and 
> should have been
> caught before machining, but the drawing is wrong.
>
> If the problem was due to tolerance stackup or the relief of stresses in 
> the stock as material
> was removed, and competent machinist SHOULD have been aware of the 
> problem just from
> examining the drawing.  If tolerance stackup, then a fixture should have 
> been made so the part
> could have been machined with fewer setups (preferably just one or 
> two).  If part warpage,
> then the whole machining process was flawed, either due to wrong 
> material selection, wrong
> approach, wrong fixturing or whatever.
>
> Some shops would be offended if you tell them how to machine a part, 
> they OUGHT to know
> better how to do it with their machines and materials.  But any shop 
> that complains that the part
> doesn't match the drawing and it is YOUR fault for making it "hard to 
> machine" sounds like a
> bunch of idiots.  Button pushers, not machininsts.  Ie, they went 
> straight from  a drawing, to CAD,
> to CAM, with no understanding of materials and machining processes.  If 
> they complained about this,
> it is actually FUNNY, because they were revealing their own ignorance in 
> a VERY embarrassing way!
>
> Jon
>
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I may be all wet, but it seems to me there aren't any standards much 
now. Mostly mayhem in machining.
At one time there was Henry Ford and his people writing automotive 
standards and they were an authority.  Seems like professors are doing 
the same thing in teaching,  in a lot of areas  but there seems little 
agreement between them. I guess this is because we are in transition in 
manufacturing. 
The fact that there is misunderstanding over you drawing is proof of 
that.  I believe mechanical design is mostly bedlam for now.   More and 
more it doesn't matter though  the machine just follows the codes given 
it. It has no knowledge of making a part it is simply following code.
Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] Roles in the manufacturing chain (was Metriks)

[Douglas Pollard]

Stuart Stevenson wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>As l as opinions are being proffered.
>When we encounter a print that the 'nominals' will not make the
> part as drawn we wonder just 'who the hell drew this?'. A license from
> a crackerjack box does not make a draftsman. With the advent of CAD
> this discovery is waning. A solid model is a wonderful thing.
>The only time you should have to 'fudge' the numbers is when you
> are making parts from forgings or casting. Tolerance stackage,
> warpage, die slippage and a host of other 'ages' can cause the
> features to shift. Most of the time a forging or casting will have a
> sweet spot. Find the sweet spot prior to making the first cut and you
> are home free.
>Our aerospace customers want the parts as close to nominal as
> possible. They would like all parts to be 'dead on' so the parts weigh
> the expected amount. No more/ no less. They allow tolerances because
> perfection is not attainable but they wish for you to get closer with
> each succeeding part.
> thanks for reading my rant
> Stuart
>
> On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Matt Shaver wrote:
>   
>> On Sat, 2009-06-13 at 11:27 +0100, Andy Pugh wrote:
>> 
>>> Most of the dimensions for the general geometry were +/- 0.2mm except
>>> for the flexural element, which was 0.2mm +/- 0.05mm dimensioned from
>>> a face with a stacked-up positional tolerance of about 0.4mm.
>>> The machinist set up his CNC mill to the centre value of each
>>> tolerance starting from a part edge and pressed "go". When the program
>>> finished the flexural element was not even there.
>>>
>>> Who was at fault? I argued that the wider tolerances elsewhere in the
>>> geometry were specifically so that they could get the flexure right,
>>> they said "You always work to mid-tolerance, and the drawing should
>>> assume that"
>>>   
>> The machinist. I used to do job shop work in my shop. The feature that
>> you described should be inspect-able, and the from dimension you quote
>> it should have measured (by whatever method is appropriate)
>> between .15mm and .25mm. Since it was not there, we can assume that it
>> would measure 0.00mm and is therefore out of tolerance.
>>
>> I have heard this "middle of the tolerance" argument many times and it
>> is as wrong today as it ever has been. And I was on the side
>> (machinists) that tried to use it to our advantage!
>>
>> If the stack-up of multiple tolerances actually prevent the part from
>> being made such that each individual tolerance limit can be observed,
>> then the drawing should go back to drafting with that explanation. If
>> you actually make the part, then it must pass inspection, even if some
>> features must be created near their tolerance limits to allow other
>> features to exist within their own tolerance limits. The "middle" of the
>> tolerance band is no more valid or important than any other point within
>> the tolerance limits.
>>
>> Wow, who would have thought I was this opinionated? :)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Matt
>>
>>
>>
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>> 
>
>
>
>   
A couple things I think I can add is  what you are saying is in a 
way pretty much a continuation of what we have always done.  The other 
thing is there are two over all tolerances involved. One is a tolerance 
involving quality. It s a kind of tolerance where an aircraft builder 
may say, we would like the part to come to us at a specific cost of plus 
or minus  some amount.  The maker of the part says, "I can hold any 
tolerance any one else can hold at some specific price.   If  Joe part 
maker works to nominal and then says, "I will aim at nominal but I have 
no idea where it will fall within the tolerance", then he is defectively 
not working to nominal. 
His competion may try harder to work to nominal and if the buyer 
prefers him over the first contractor then the effective tolerance as 
actually tighter and the price of the part goes  up. 
Hopefully we are all serving our own interests and at the same time 
cooperating to serve both parties interest. 
I don't think a designer should ever design with a tolerance and 
hope for nominal. That seems to me unprofessional and unenforceable.   A 
drawing should say what it means and nothing more.
Of course this is whole thing is an age old unsettled argument.

Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] Metricks - Mill-Drill needs steppers and servos?

[Douglas Pollard]

Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Saturday 13 June 2009, Douglas Pollard wrote:
>
>   
>> At 75 years old
>> 
>
> Darn, I've been dethroned as the resident old codger, I won't be 75 till 
> October 2009.
>
> Congrats Doug.
>
>   
>> I am just now learning cad and cad cam. I have
>> a lathe, a home made mill and I am converting it to cnc.  So most of you
>> guys are light years ahead of me even if you are just starting with cnc.
>>  The really good news about all this all my grand and great
>> grand children think I am the greatest grand pop there ever was, because
>> I can talk technology with them.  I make little short videos and send
>> them and they love it.
>>
>> Doug
>> 
>
> My kids, and occasionally my grandkids, call me for advice, and its 
> embarrassing to admit I know very little about their x-box's.  But it make me 
> feel good that they think I should know all about them.
>
>   
When I don't know I just pull my glasses down on the end of my nose, 
look like Ben Franklin and nod wisely.  They like that just as well as 
when I know :-)
   Doug

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[Emc-users] atom processor

[Douglas Pollard]

Hi all,  Have just lost my shop cnc computer motherboard gone as best I 
can tell.   Have been looking  on line a new computers and there are a 
couple cheap ones  with an atom processor 1.6 ghtz   a couple gigs of 
ram am wondering if anyone has used this processor with Emc.
Anybody got any ideas on this.
  Thanks, Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] atom processor

[Douglas Pollard]

sam sokolik wrote:
> I have played with this board 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121359
>
> nothing stellar but works (latency's stay just under 20us) Using the 
> stock emc2 livecd. YMMV
>
> sam
>
> Douglas Pollard wrote:
>   
>> Hi all,  Have just lost my shop cnc computer motherboard gone as best I 
>> can tell.   Have been looking  on line a new computers and there are a 
>> couple cheap ones  with an atom processor 1.6 ghtz   a couple gigs of 
>> ram am wondering if anyone has used this processor with Emc.
>> Anybody got any ideas on this.
>>   Thanks, Doug
>>
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>> 
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>   
I have to think about ths a minute ot two.  My in the house computer is 
a 2003 model and I have tried it in the shop and it does work. I may 
just replace it with a pretty good machine as I also do video  and a 
newer faster machine would be nice. But there is a pretty good cash 
outlay there!  The other choice is a cheaper computer with the atom 
process for about $200.00 or a mother board with the atom processor that 
Newegg is selling and at the same time buy a cheaper graphics card which 
would also need to be done for a new cheap computer.   Probably the 
older computer has a bigger power supply than the new on which only has 
to supply for the low draw atom processor. I am also looking for a used 
box that is between 1ghz and 2ghz  which might be a good option,
  Sorry guys just thinking out loud now.  But if anybody else has 
something to throw in, it will be appreciated.
 
 Thanks guys for the help I've gotten so 
far.
 
   Doug

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[Emc-users] Air compressor and hard drives

[Douglas Pollard]

My air compressor started up the same time I was starting my computer 
and crashed my hard drive.  I have a small cheap compressor and its all 
the motor can do to start it and I guess it drew the current down.
Anyway just something  to think about!!   
   Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] Air compressor and hard drives

[Douglas Pollard]

Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 20 August 2009, Douglas Pollard wrote:
>   
>> My air compressor started up the same time I was starting my computer
>> and crashed my hard drive.  I have a small cheap compressor and its all
>> the motor can do to start it and I guess it drew the current down.
>> Anyway just something  to think about!!
>>   Doug
>> 
>
> A good advertisement for installing a UPS.  It doesn't have to be big enough 
> to run the mill although I did have one once that could.  Basically, anything 
> that can supply the box for 3 to 5 seconds during such a brownout should at 
> least be a down payment on the insurance policy.
>
> However, I have not noted the lights dimming or flickering when my 2hp belt 
> driven 120 volt compressor fires up.  I ran a hunk of 6-3 UF to the shop, 
> very little drop.  But it took a slow, 20 amp breaker to have it stay up when 
> it starts, so it is a pretty decent pull.
>  
>   
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>
>   
I suspect the cable going to the shop is pretty small. I have a couple 
of 50 amp cables that I used to use to run all the electricals on my 
sailboat when we lived aboard.  I may dig up the old one and bury the 
boat cable. They make good underground cables as they are sometimes 
hanging partly in the water when used for a boat and it seems to have no 
ill effect.   I will try it anyway.
 Doug


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Re: [Emc-users] Air compressor and hard drives

[Douglas Pollard]

Jon Elson wrote:
> Douglas Pollard wrote:
>   
>> My air compressor started up the same time I was starting my computer 
>> and crashed my hard drive.  I have a small cheap compressor and its all 
>> the motor can do to start it and I guess it drew the current down.
>> Anyway just something  to think about!!   
>>   
>> 
> This shouldn't happen.  It is possible the computer's power supply was 
> on its last legs, and a small voltage dip
> caused it to fail at JUST the wrong time.  Good hard drives are quite 
> reliable, too.  I had a cheapie Chinese adaptor to
> go from 4-pin Molex to SATA power, and it was dropping +12 V at least 
> once a day for over a week before I figured out
> what the problem was.  No damaged data, to my amazement.  I guess as 
> long as the +5 stayed up, it wrote out whatever was in the buffer
> when I jiggled the cable and got the +12 V back on.
>
> I had my mains power go off long enough that I was reaching for a 
> flashlight until the power came back on.  It must have been a little less
> than a full second, but pretty long in computer terms.  I was machining 
> a part at the time, and the computer, servo drives and spindle
> drive all kept running right through the outage!  That's what they are 
> supposed to handle.
>
> Jon
>
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>   
Jon there is a possibility that the whole thing was nothing more than a 
coincidence?   The computer is old so there may well be a problem with 
the power supply. It's a $27.00 computer I bought on line for my work 
shop and to run a cnc bench mill.  There could be almost any kind of 
problem there.
 

  Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] Sites to help understand Linux

[Douglas Pollard]

H & J Johnson wrote:
> The Backlash is very small on the R/P  [I can't measure it] but it does wear 
> out over time [I'm on my second set of rack and third set of pinions] I've 
> decided that it would be a better system if I moved to the ballscrew or a 
> super hard helical R/P. The ballscrew came out cheaper so.. that's where I'm 
> headed.. The R/P starts to get rough after it's worn in for a while and 
> finally at some point you just have to replace it.. It's not SUPER high 
> quality stuff either so the overall accuracy suffers a bit [It's very 
> repeatable, just not super accurate over linear length]
>
> Not sure I follow you on the bidirectional lead screw comp?
>
> J. Johnson
>
>
>   
>> J. Johnson
>>   If the rack drive has no backlash and is strong enough to 
>> handle the
>> cutting forces there is no reason to go to a ball screw.
>>   The bidirectional lead screw compensation works very well.
>> Stuart
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 12:46 PM, H & J Johnson 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Thanks Steve, this was infact my plan. I've got a bunch of 
>>>   
>> G202's and
>> 
>>> steppers sitting around. It would
>>> be fairly simple to load it up and start playing and get my feet 
>>>   
>> wet that
>> 
>>> way.. we'll see how things progress
>>> from there. I'm several months away from any major changes on my
>>> machine..just want to start
>>> mapping out the process and seeing if I can make it work. :)
>>>
>>> Thanks again!
>>>
>>> J. Johnson
>>>
>>>   
 H & J Johnson wrote:

 
> Steven, thanks for taking the time to reply. I'm by no means a
>   
 programer>nor do I expect that I'd get proficient at it in the
 time frame needed [or to
 
> the level that would be required]. I'm more interested in being
>   
 able to
 
> 'look up' stuff and learn to read code a little.. to 
>   
>> understand what
>> 
> is be asked where etc.
>
>
>   
 Actually, I think I might have been wrong about where to start.
 Get
 yourself an old throwaway PC, and install Linux using the EMC2
 liveCD
 from linuxcnc.org.  You will find that it's very similar to what
 you're
 used to, just some of the details are different.  (The "program
 menu" is
 at the top left of the screen, and is labeled "Applications"
 instead of
 being at the bottom left and labelled "start" ...)

 Play around, and don't expect to save anything from this install.
 You
 can always intsall again if you do something that you can't fix.
 (Note:  you can do a lot of experimentation just by booting from
 the CD
 - it's a fully functional system - but you may be nervous about
 destroying data, that's why I suggest doing an install on a PC
 that has
 no useful data on it)

 
> On the motion controler I should have called it a step generator.
>   
 I've>used the G100 and have [haven't installed it yet] a Smooth
 Stepper>for Mach3.
 
 OK, I wasn't sure.  There are several similar units for EMC2, but
 none
 use ethernet or USB for communications - they're either PCI or
 parallel
 port connected.

 
> I've been satisfied w/ how Mach3 has run the only
> thing that is driving my switch to EMC is the ability to do
>   
 proper tool
 
> offsets while in 5 axis. Brian [from Artsoft] has advised me 
>   
>> that he
>> 
> doesn't currently have plans to add this functionality. He's a
>   
 busy guy
 
> and my move is in no way a slight against him.
>
>
>   
 None taken :)

 
> I'm sure that a switch to EMC is more daunting in the initial
>   
 stages
 
> than it is once one jumps in. However I'm at a bit of a loss
>   
 since I've
 
> no experiance w/ Linux or EMC.
>
>
>   
 It's more in your head than anywhere else :)

 The differences between Linux and Windows today are a bit like the
 differences between cars.  Some have the headlight switch on the
 dash,
 others on a stick on the steering column.  Some need you to press
 a
 button to switch high/low beam, others need to be pulled to
 toggle,
 others are push-pull ...  They all do more or less the same thing,
 but
 the controls are slightly different.  You probably don't have much
 trepidation about jumping into an unfamiliar rental car - try
 adopting
 the same attitude toward a new operating system.  (note:  I'm not
 saying
 that there are no differences, or that it will never be
 frustrating to
 figure out how to do something on Linux that you already know how
 to do
 on Windows, it's just that most of th

Re: [Emc-users] Sites to help understand Linux

[Douglas Pollard]

H & J Johnson wrote:
>  
>   
>> My suggestion is to just replace the pinion as most of the wear is 
>> there.  At some point it maybe necessary to replace the rack as 
>> well.  
>> Of course if the amount of  engagement is adjustable there may 
>> well be a 
>> lot more service gotten out of the pinions as well.
>>   
>>  
>>  Doug
>> 
>
> Doug, this has been my MO for a couple years now but the Rack finally wore
> to the point of point loading the pinions so I said enough..  I've got 
> replacement
> Rack already in the shop so I'll use it but I won't be installing it again.. 
> next time it
> wears out I'll have the parts here to upgrade to ballscrews. Over time the 
> increased 
> roughness of movement destroys the ability to get a decent surface finish so, 
> I'm 
> confident that the upgrade to ballscrews will significantly improve this over 
> the long run.
>
> Not to mention stepping up the o/a accuracy of the machine.
>
> Btw, the pinons are pressure loaded into the rack using a gas shock. It's 
> just enough
> load to overcome the max seperation pressure created by the rack [to seperate 
> the pinon
> from the rack] This take into account wear and any possible miss alignment 
> etc of the rack.
>
> It's not optimum but has worked thus far.. The ballscrew is a good upgrade 
> for me.. can't wait
> to get it done :)
>
> J. Johnson
>
>
>
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>   
Sounds like you are working the butt of that machine, in which case it 
sure ought to pay for good lead screws. I belong to some lists of home 
boat builders. I would really like to build a router about 4ft x 16ft .  
I could cut out complete boat kits  and in a home shop there would not 
be much overhead costs.  Even if the machine were a bit slow   it would 
still be worth while. I would likely use wrack and pinion drives or belt 
drives. I have even considered chain drives of course that would require 
a more often calibrating of the machine.  I have also thought about 
building the machine from wood with metal ways at least for the bed. It 
would expand and contract as moisture changes but so would the wood I'd 
be cutting so that would likely be a wash.  An accuracy of 1/32" in four 
feet would be really, really accurate for boat building.  That would be 
1/8" in 16ft would be very perceptible.  This would require cutting all 
the lengthwise lumber and all the cross frames together so if there were 
expansion and contraction of the machine, frames and longitudinals would 
all match each other.  I have a work shed 20'x 30' that is heated with a 
wood coal stove.  I have a cnc bench mill  and south bend lathe so I can 
cast and make at least some special hardware.   Don't know if I will get 
this done but I like to think about it :-)   We'll see!
 
Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Cutting Aluminium [Was: What hardware should buy to start ]

[Douglas Pollard]

Andy Pugh wrote:
> 2009/9/6 Erik Christiansen :
>
>   
>> Is thinner oil the answer?
>> 
>
> Paraffin is commonly used, I believe.
> (Google)
> You might call it Kerosene.
>
>   
Early on as a machinist we cut all aluminum with kerosene or parafin.  
When you are cutting at the slower speeds used  back then it was good 
stuff.   We were  always fairly careful not to boil it from the heat  of 
the cutting as It is explosive in a fine mist or steam like vapor.  The 
worst of it was I always smelled of kero. It goes into your skin and 
hair and stays there for  severals days or more.  It is such a good 
cutting fluid for aluminum that I consider coolant only a reasonable  
substitute .   I made a set up to drill a center hole in round billets 
for Reynolds aluminum co.  These billets were slugs to be extruded into 
aluminum tubing thus the hole in the middle.  The material  was dead 
soft and drills sucked their way right in.  If you dubbed the points of 
the drills aluminum packed around the drills even when flooded with 
cutting fluids and we tried many.  We moved the operation into another 
building because of the smell.  Between the stink of aluminum cutting 
and the smell of oil kero fumes the neighbors complained about the 
stink.  One world war one veteran  claimed it smelled like the 
battlefield of Verdun with rotting bodies and that it made him sick.  I 
have not noticed that smell in modern aluminum.  The harder the metal is 
the better I like it for machining.  I say this only for aluminum.
 
Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Cutting Aluminium [Was: What hardware should buy to start ]

[Douglas Pollard]

John Kasunich wrote:
> Andy Pugh wrote:
>   
>> 2009/9/6 Erik Christiansen :
>>
>> 
>>> Is thinner oil the answer?
>>>   
>> Paraffin is commonly used, I believe.
>> (Google)
>> You might call it Kerosene.
>>
>> 
>
> I use WD-40 for aluminum.  It is mostly kerosene.  On this side of the
> pond, paraffin is a type of wax used to make candles
>
> John Kasunich
>
>
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I wouldn't bet the farm on this but candle wax is made from paraffin I 
think which is the same as kerosene in the US. In the 1930's we used 
coal oil for heaters and cook stoves and such and was a replacement for 
whale oil. It was replaced by kerosene which was I believe standard Oils 
trade name for paraffin.  Kero was known as paraffin here in the us 
prior to that.As I remember it anyway.
 
Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] OT: Cutting Aluminium [Was: What hardware should buy to start ]

[Douglas Pollard]

R.L. Wurdack wrote:
> I cut a lot of 6061and 7075 dry, but for finish cuts I use a little A9. Most 
> of the parts I make are small. I get a mirror finish with a light final cut 
> and just a brushed on coat of A9. I use it for tapping, drilling, and 
> reaming as well. It smells pretty vile, but not as bad as coal oil.
>
> Dick
>
>   
>> On Sun, 2009-09-06 at 18:29 +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sat, Sep 05, 2009 at 02:19:50AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>>   
 Hard grades of alu can be cut at faster feed speeds but requires the 
 surface
 be well flooded to preserve the finish and exclude as much oxygen from 
 the
 cut as is possible.  That of course we all know.
 
>>> Having just produced a shoebox full of Al swarf, cutting dry, I am
>>> abashed. But "suds" is reputed to get into felt slide wipers, and rust
>>> intermittently used machines, so I've never used that. An attempt to use
>>> neat oil resulted in gluggy heaps of aluminium porridge encumbering the
>>> tool. Is thinner oil the answer?
>>>
>>> Erik
>>>   
>
>
>
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What is neat oil. I've never heard that term before?
  Doug


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