Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
andy pugh wrote: > Are you talking about retrofitting LinuxCNC to a used CNC machine here? > Many old CNC machines have good iron but broken/old/rubbish > controllers. A controller-only retrofit of those machines can be > fairly quick and fairly cheap. > One comment. Many machines from perhaps 10 years ago will be perfectly running at the seller's site, but will not come up at the buyer's location, even though they were professionally rigged and moved. Connections work loose, etc. Don't ask how many people have had this happen, the stories are legion. A good tech can probably get such a machine running again in a few hours, but these older controls are just not reliable. I had an old Allen-Bradley, and had 3 breakdowns in about 9 months, and got real tired of it. I DO have the expertise to fix it, but just never knew if it was going to fire up any time I tried to use it. I replaced it with a PC control, and have had absolutely minimal trouble in the last 12 years. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
k...@gmail.com wrote: > There is a bit of talk on some machine shop forums, arguments perhaps, that > retrofitting a machine is a waste of time. > And that it's time and money well spent to just buy a good used > machine and move on with making money with it. > Any comments on this from the list? > Depends. If you are a production shop with orders to fill, and no in-house controls people, then this is likely true. if you have the in-house expertise (or local people who have that expertise at much less than $1000 a day) then it may not be true. Yes, some of these retrofits can become a can of worms, especially when you try to cheap out and re-use old parts that may not be in the best shape. The old controls develop all sorts of bad connections and failing components. And, the first time you do a retrofit, there is a learning curve, that is certainly true. But, once you are past that learning curve, the second retrofit will come MUCH easier. Also, you will be able to fix the machine yourself when something fails, and afford to keep spare parts on hand. Compare prices for many of these retrofit parts against Fanuc spares and service people's hourly rates, and you might start to see what we are talking about, here. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
here my findings running a CNC machine shop full time we now have 4 machines on Linuxcnc (3x Laths all hardinge , 1x VMC leadwell) soon to be 5 (will be a 2nd VMC) all around 1985up machines , these machines had good solid Iron (something some of the newer ones lack), with only a few needed services repairs done to them, some we replaced the ball screw bearings with new (after 25+ years exspected i think) serviced all the oil restriction ways that wanted looking at, things like this while fitting the control does not take that long nor does it cost alot in parts or time... once done they are now flying through jobs with no issues what so ever.. the first thing we noticed, old programs made to run on linuxcnc, with no rapid increase on speed , ie machine as was only new control, all cycle times started to take half as long to run.. all becasue the machine was no longer stopping to look for the next block of code or other small things.. which will soon add up to alot of wasted time. we are very pleased with our retrofits, yes can take some time to get things done.. but all in all its not a lost casue we now feel we have machines ready to run for 12 more years or even longer.. all spending very littleover the cost of new, or even good used 2nd hand which is hard to find right now here in UK.. i think what realy kills it is retrofitting companys charging way over the top as when you start to look at 20k+, when you think how much a new fanuc or other is... this is where you then you start to look what is around on the market that can take its place in faster rapids, spindle etc.. yes Linuxcnc has its small problems but you can soon over come them, but then most controls have issues some where we find but main thing what we love about linuxcnc on the machines is if we want to change the PLC ladder, or make the control do something new or odd, we can do it, on our fanucs, you start to talk about big ££ signs just like Stuart pointed out, start to want a 4th or 5th axes on your mill to do work, indexing or contouring start counting your pennies.. again.. as one of our machine seller said to us, "we are a machine builders nightmare" rob -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
On 13 May 2012 21:12, Roger Holmquist wrote: >> 1) differential analogue ports: in 4, out 4 ,resolution 12 bits, >> sample rate 10 Ms / s That might be tricky, what's the application? -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
> Well, I have read your arguments and I guess I'm in! > > > I think I will start with the 2-core Intel atom board Viesturs > mentioned. > And then we have the pheripherals, here is my very preliminary > wish-list, (not much knowledge of my lathe control-interfaces ): > > > PCI: > 1) differential analogue ports: in 4, out 4 ,resolution 12 bits, > sample rate 10 Ms / s > 2) digital ports 32. Tristate, sink 10 mA, source 10 mA +/- 12 V ? > 3) opto-ports 12, 24 V ? > 4) PWM-ports ? > > > Wlan: Linux compatible usb-dongle > Mass storage/boot device: USB-stick ? > Display, VGA 12" for integration? > Keyboard, stand alone? > mouse/trackball/touchpad for integration ? > Power supply: 12 V / 5 A ? > > > Did I forget anything? > > > / Roger > > > > > > -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
2012/5/13 andy pugh : > On 13 May 2012 20:34, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > >> which means that nobody owns >> it and thus there is nobody to hold responsible for something. That is >> the only drawback of opensource I have seen so far. > > You can sell this as a feature, in some ways. If there is a problem > then _any_ programmer they hire can fix it, and that will be true for > ever. Yes, definitely! There are some more selling points on being opensource: 1) they can not only fix something, but also adjust/improve anything any time; 2) hundreds of people have invested their time and effort in this software, which means that collective wisdom in this software can match products of very large software companies with tens and hundreds of employees. This ensures that it works correctly and exactly how machinist in the shop needs it to be rather than how few people, sitting in office, imagines the way, things _should_ happen, and that total number of features and capabilities of the application beats to dust majority of commercial CNC controllers and it can compete with the market leaders in this context. Viesturs If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
On 13 May 2012 20:34, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > which means that nobody owns > it and thus there is nobody to hold responsible for something. That is > the only drawback of opensource I have seen so far. You can sell this as a feature, in some ways. If there is a problem then _any_ programmer they hire can fix it, and that will be true for ever. -- atp If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
2012/5/13 Stuart Stevenson : > > Part of the LinuxCNC problem is the person signing the check trusts Fanuc > or Allan Bradley because it is familiar and safe. In this context every new startup machine tool maker faces the market unawareness - people do not know it, so are not very trustful, not to say more. That is one of my problems, regardless what particular CNC controller I use. I think that LinuxCNC still helps in this context, because I can say that it runs thousands of machines for decade and more, instead of 4 machines and the first one not being even 1 year old... What I see about LinuxCNC is that sometimes people get afraid of LinuxCNC when they hear it is opensource, which means that nobody owns it and thus there is nobody to hold responsible for something. That is the only drawback of opensource I have seen so far. Viesturs If you can't fix it, you don't own it. http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
If we could get rid of the two or three gripes LinuxCNC would easily be the control of choice for almost anything. How long did it take for the IBM pc to lose the lead. I used to hear a snooty 'I have an IBM' when discussing PCs. How long has it taken Linux to even be in the same sentence as Windows. 'What is Linux?' is still heard. Part of the LinuxCNC problem is the person signing the check trusts Fanuc or Allan Bradley because it is familiar and safe. On Sunday, May 13, 2012, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > Stuart, I think that I will mark Your email for later reference, > because it perfectly explains the same situation I was 3 years ago as > a result of which I am now making my living on building cnc machines > or retrofitting existing ones and LinuxCNC is the only and exclusive > controller for me. > Sometimes I feel that people do not really believe me, so another > opinion that supports that is what I needed :) > > Viesturs > > 2012/5/13 Stuart Stevenson : > > USD10,000 equals 1 to 3 control repairs. A retrofit can be less than 10k > > and avoid current and further control repairs. > > A retrofit to replace a control that repair parts are unavailable for > makes > > all kinds of sense. > > On one of my machines with a functioning control (year model 1998 and the > > control runs fine) I want to replace the control because upgrade > features I > > want from the manufacturer cost in excess of USD20.000 for the software > > alone. > > On another machine (also 1998 and functioning) upgrades are NOT available > > because the OEM is no longer developing software for that model. A > retrofit > > to a current OEM control with the desired capability is more than > > USD120,000. > > I have several three axis mills. I have several rotary tables. To marry > the > > tables to the current controls will be more expensive than a retrofit. > > My retrofits are on the network for communication. The OEM controls are > not. > > A LinuxCNC retrofit does not require all steppers or all servos or even > all > > the components of either to be the same. > > ...etc ad nauseum > > :) > > What's not to like? The main gripe is the 'start from line'. I agree that > > could be 'enhanced' although my Fanuc controls are not much better at > > starting from a line if the program is long enough to need to run by DNC. > > Also, the Fanuc start from line doesn't start from a line in the middle > of > > a tool without switching to MDI to make sure the prep codes are correct. > > Some of the other controls are much better at starting from a line. > > Having some fun now. > > Stuart > > > > On Sunday, May 13, 2012, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > > > >> 2012/5/13 dave >: > >> > > >> > It depends on the final usage. If you are commercial paying 10K to > >> > refit a machine it may not make much sense. > >> > >> Could You, please, explain, why not? > >> If the overall condition of mechanics of machine is very good, the > >> controller is dead (could be some minor issues with mechanics), then > >> 10K is more than sufficient to bring in somebody to do the retrofit > >> (there are several members of this list that are doing this, I would > >> consider myself in that category too). > >> LinuxCNC is advanced enough that the functionality of the retrofitted > >> machine will totally match capabilities of brand new machine. > >> > >> Viesturs > >> > >> > >> > -- > >> Live Security Virtual Conference > >> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > >> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. > Discussions > >> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in > malware > >> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > >> ___ > >> Emc-users mailing list > >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > >> > > > > > > -- > > dos centavos > > > -- > > Live Security Virtual Conference > > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > > ___ > > Emc-users mailing list > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
Of course there are some people and businesses for which a retrofit will make no sense. For our organization (community group with almost no capital to speak of but lots of volunteer time/interest), our LinuxCNC retrofits have been great. We are a group of hackers, many of whom subscribe to the "self repair manifesto": http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto "If you can't fix it you don't own it". We completed a retrofit of two bridgeport-class mills (including Mesa hardware) for an equivalent cost of replacing one proprietary board in either of those systems. This is of course counting our time as free, but we work on those machines as a hobby and rather enjoy it. What was a "magic black box" is now well-understood and fixable. That is worth a lot IMO. Scott On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > Stuart, I think that I will mark Your email for later reference, > because it perfectly explains the same situation I was 3 years ago as > a result of which I am now making my living on building cnc machines > or retrofitting existing ones and LinuxCNC is the only and exclusive > controller for me. > Sometimes I feel that people do not really believe me, so another > opinion that supports that is what I needed :) > > Viesturs > > 2012/5/13 Stuart Stevenson : > > USD10,000 equals 1 to 3 control repairs. A retrofit can be less than 10k > > and avoid current and further control repairs. > > A retrofit to replace a control that repair parts are unavailable for > makes > > all kinds of sense. > > On one of my machines with a functioning control (year model 1998 and the > > control runs fine) I want to replace the control because upgrade > features I > > want from the manufacturer cost in excess of USD20.000 for the software > > alone. > > On another machine (also 1998 and functioning) upgrades are NOT available > > because the OEM is no longer developing software for that model. A > retrofit > > to a current OEM control with the desired capability is more than > > USD120,000. > > I have several three axis mills. I have several rotary tables. To marry > the > > tables to the current controls will be more expensive than a retrofit. > > My retrofits are on the network for communication. The OEM controls are > not. > > A LinuxCNC retrofit does not require all steppers or all servos or even > all > > the components of either to be the same. > > ...etc ad nauseum > > :) > > What's not to like? The main gripe is the 'start from line'. I agree that > > could be 'enhanced' although my Fanuc controls are not much better at > > starting from a line if the program is long enough to need to run by DNC. > > Also, the Fanuc start from line doesn't start from a line in the middle > of > > a tool without switching to MDI to make sure the prep codes are correct. > > Some of the other controls are much better at starting from a line. > > Having some fun now. > > Stuart > > > > On Sunday, May 13, 2012, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > > > >> 2012/5/13 dave >: > >> > > >> > It depends on the final usage. If you are commercial paying 10K to > >> > refit a machine it may not make much sense. > >> > >> Could You, please, explain, why not? > >> If the overall condition of mechanics of machine is very good, the > >> controller is dead (could be some minor issues with mechanics), then > >> 10K is more than sufficient to bring in somebody to do the retrofit > >> (there are several members of this list that are doing this, I would > >> consider myself in that category too). > >> LinuxCNC is advanced enough that the functionality of the retrofitted > >> machine will totally match capabilities of brand new machine. > >> > >> Viesturs > >> > >> > >> > -- > >> Live Security Virtual Conference > >> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > >> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. > Discussions > >> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in > malware > >> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > >> ___ > >> Emc-users mailing list > >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > >> > > > > > > -- > > dos centavos > > > -- > > Live Security Virtual Conference > > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > > ___ > > Emc-users mailing list > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > > --
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
Stuart, I think that I will mark Your email for later reference, because it perfectly explains the same situation I was 3 years ago as a result of which I am now making my living on building cnc machines or retrofitting existing ones and LinuxCNC is the only and exclusive controller for me. Sometimes I feel that people do not really believe me, so another opinion that supports that is what I needed :) Viesturs 2012/5/13 Stuart Stevenson : > USD10,000 equals 1 to 3 control repairs. A retrofit can be less than 10k > and avoid current and further control repairs. > A retrofit to replace a control that repair parts are unavailable for makes > all kinds of sense. > On one of my machines with a functioning control (year model 1998 and the > control runs fine) I want to replace the control because upgrade features I > want from the manufacturer cost in excess of USD20.000 for the software > alone. > On another machine (also 1998 and functioning) upgrades are NOT available > because the OEM is no longer developing software for that model. A retrofit > to a current OEM control with the desired capability is more than > USD120,000. > I have several three axis mills. I have several rotary tables. To marry the > tables to the current controls will be more expensive than a retrofit. > My retrofits are on the network for communication. The OEM controls are not. > A LinuxCNC retrofit does not require all steppers or all servos or even all > the components of either to be the same. > ...etc ad nauseum > :) > What's not to like? The main gripe is the 'start from line'. I agree that > could be 'enhanced' although my Fanuc controls are not much better at > starting from a line if the program is long enough to need to run by DNC. > Also, the Fanuc start from line doesn't start from a line in the middle of > a tool without switching to MDI to make sure the prep codes are correct. > Some of the other controls are much better at starting from a line. > Having some fun now. > Stuart > > On Sunday, May 13, 2012, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > >> 2012/5/13 dave >: >> > >> > It depends on the final usage. If you are commercial paying 10K to >> > refit a machine it may not make much sense. >> >> Could You, please, explain, why not? >> If the overall condition of mechanics of machine is very good, the >> controller is dead (could be some minor issues with mechanics), then >> 10K is more than sufficient to bring in somebody to do the retrofit >> (there are several members of this list that are doing this, I would >> consider myself in that category too). >> LinuxCNC is advanced enough that the functionality of the retrofitted >> machine will totally match capabilities of brand new machine. >> >> Viesturs >> >> >> -- >> Live Security Virtual Conference >> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and >> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions >> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware >> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ >> ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >> > > > -- > dos centavos > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
2012/5/13 Stephen Dubovsky : > On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 3:45 AM, Viesturs Lācis > wrote: > >> LinuxCNC is advanced enough that the functionality of the retrofitted >> machine will totally match capabilities of brand new machine. >> >> > LinuxCNC isn't the problem. The old iron is. And it has nothing to do w/ > the condition of old iron. Its the SPEED. Time is money. > > Say you're making a million dollars annually on a machine. Even a mere 20% > increase will pay for a $200k new machine the first year. You can see why > it can be easy for a big shop to justify new million dollar VMCs. Add in > the depreciation schedule, pay of operators to run each machine, floor > space costs/limits, faster job turnaround time, etc and it the benefits of > new/better/faster can add up really fast to some companies. Yes, I have read these arguments. Of course, there are special cases - aerospace industry and maybe some other. I am sure that for vast majority of machine shops that is not true. There is no such company in my country that is making a million in revenues on one machine. The one I built the welding robot for - yes, they have revenues in millions per year, but they have 20+ Doosan cnc lathes, mills and who knows what else remained hidden from my sight. And a lot of the final value is added by employees that assemble, paint and do whatever stuff to produce ready-for-use things. I know that their main products are bend-saws and hydraulic manipulators, including the rotors. And whatever stuff customer orders... What I wanted to say - if a single machine makes millions per year, then that has to be a very very special machine. If I have to choose one machine for 180K or retrofitted machine for 10K, which has 60% productivity of the new machine, I would choose 2 retrofitted machines, so I get 120% of productivity of new machine for 20K. Yes, of course that requires more space in premises. How much space does one machining centre occupy? I think that vast majority of them - less than 10 sq.m. How much does constructing industrial premises cost? In my country it is less than 400 EUR/sq.m., so let it be 1K/sq.m. That would be 10K for a machine. The total cost of 40 K per 2 machines is still several times lower than new machine and there are 2 machines in shop instead of one - don't tell me that new machines do not go out of order... Rarely, but they do. And when they do, it also costs a fortune to get them up and running - guys that manufactured all the parts for the welding robot have pretty new cnc mill. Mainboard of the cnc controller went out of order - it cost ~2000 USD to replace it. How many D525s could I burn and replace for even half of that amount? And all those stories about Siemens cnc controllers having HDDs with proprietary connectors, so user cannot put another IDE or SATA drive in it, but has to purchase another from Siemens for 4000 USD... So no - thanks. I will stick with used machines and retrofit them to LinuxCNC. Viesturs -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
I don't want to start a war with this BUT almost all the these opinions are done by people with the desire to buy new machines or sell new machines. Over one half the machines in my two shops were purchased new. The new machines are no faster or productive than new machines. In fact, last Friday I talked with a shop about doing some work for them because they are unable to cut some parts efficiently on their NEW machines. I will put the parts on one of my old machines and take about 60% of the time out of them and make better parts. You can buy new or used, how you use them is the critical issue. Again - having some fun now Stuart On Sunday, May 13, 2012, Stephen Dubovsky wrote: > On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 3:45 AM, Viesturs Lācis > > >wrote: > > > LinuxCNC is advanced enough that the functionality of the retrofitted > > machine will totally match capabilities of brand new machine. > > > > > LinuxCNC isn't the problem. The old iron is. And it has nothing to do w/ > the condition of old iron. Its the SPEED. Time is money. > > Say you're making a million dollars annually on a machine. Even a mere 20% > increase will pay for a $200k new machine the first year. You can see why > it can be easy for a big shop to justify new million dollar VMCs. Add in > the depreciation schedule, pay of operators to run each machine, floor > space costs/limits, faster job turnaround time, etc and it the benefits of > new/better/faster can add up really fast to some companies. > > I once read an analysis about pick and place machines for board assembly > manufacturers. If the DIDNT replace their machines every X years (due to > speed/quality/reliability increases) they were loosing money. I don't > remember exactly but X was a surprisingly short time. Moore's law is a > bitch;) > > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- dos centavos -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
USD10,000 equals 1 to 3 control repairs. A retrofit can be less than 10k and avoid current and further control repairs. A retrofit to replace a control that repair parts are unavailable for makes all kinds of sense. On one of my machines with a functioning control (year model 1998 and the control runs fine) I want to replace the control because upgrade features I want from the manufacturer cost in excess of USD20.000 for the software alone. On another machine (also 1998 and functioning) upgrades are NOT available because the OEM is no longer developing software for that model. A retrofit to a current OEM control with the desired capability is more than USD120,000. I have several three axis mills. I have several rotary tables. To marry the tables to the current controls will be more expensive than a retrofit. My retrofits are on the network for communication. The OEM controls are not. A LinuxCNC retrofit does not require all steppers or all servos or even all the components of either to be the same. ...etc ad nauseum :) What's not to like? The main gripe is the 'start from line'. I agree that could be 'enhanced' although my Fanuc controls are not much better at starting from a line if the program is long enough to need to run by DNC. Also, the Fanuc start from line doesn't start from a line in the middle of a tool without switching to MDI to make sure the prep codes are correct. Some of the other controls are much better at starting from a line. Having some fun now. Stuart On Sunday, May 13, 2012, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > 2012/5/13 dave >: > > > > It depends on the final usage. If you are commercial paying 10K to > > refit a machine it may not make much sense. > > Could You, please, explain, why not? > If the overall condition of mechanics of machine is very good, the > controller is dead (could be some minor issues with mechanics), then > 10K is more than sufficient to bring in somebody to do the retrofit > (there are several members of this list that are doing this, I would > consider myself in that category too). > LinuxCNC is advanced enough that the functionality of the retrofitted > machine will totally match capabilities of brand new machine. > > Viesturs > > > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- dos centavos -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 3:45 AM, Viesturs Lācis wrote: > LinuxCNC is advanced enough that the functionality of the retrofitted > machine will totally match capabilities of brand new machine. > > LinuxCNC isn't the problem. The old iron is. And it has nothing to do w/ the condition of old iron. Its the SPEED. Time is money. Say you're making a million dollars annually on a machine. Even a mere 20% increase will pay for a $200k new machine the first year. You can see why it can be easy for a big shop to justify new million dollar VMCs. Add in the depreciation schedule, pay of operators to run each machine, floor space costs/limits, faster job turnaround time, etc and it the benefits of new/better/faster can add up really fast to some companies. I once read an analysis about pick and place machines for board assembly manufacturers. If the DIDNT replace their machines every X years (due to speed/quality/reliability increases) they were loosing money. I don't remember exactly but X was a surprisingly short time. Moore's law is a bitch;) -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
2012/5/13 dave : > > It depends on the final usage. If you are commercial paying 10K to > refit a machine it may not make much sense. Could You, please, explain, why not? If the overall condition of mechanics of machine is very good, the controller is dead (could be some minor issues with mechanics), then 10K is more than sufficient to bring in somebody to do the retrofit (there are several members of this list that are doing this, I would consider myself in that category too). LinuxCNC is advanced enough that the functionality of the retrofitted machine will totally match capabilities of brand new machine. Viesturs -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
On Sat, 12 May 2012 15:03:43 -0700 Tux Lab wrote: > Used cnc machines are so common and fairly inexpensive, retrofitting > with EMC doesn't make that much sense once you factor in the amount of > time it take to do a retofit. However, if a replacement machine cost > hundreds of thousands, or if you are doing 10 or 20 machines, then > retrofitting can probably be a good alternative, especially with EMC > vs a proprietary system. > John > It depends on the final usage. If you are commercial paying 10K to refit a machine it may not make much sense. If you are a retired/semi-commercial/hobbyist then the time is less expensive and it really makes sense. Dave > On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 7:15 AM, k...@gmail.com > wrote: > > There is a bit of talk on some machine shop forums, arguments > > perhaps, that retrofitting a machine is a waste of time. > > And that it's time and money well spent to just buy a good used > > machine and move on with making money with it. > > Any comments on this from the list? > > > > dk > > -- > > Live Security Virtual Conference > > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. > > Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the > > latest in malware threats. > > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > > ___ Emc-users mailing > > list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. > Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the > latest in malware threats. > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
On Sat, 12 May 2012 22:30:13 -0400 BRIAN GLACKIN wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think this has a lot to do with a focus on production and not on > > the techie side. > > > > Dave > > > > > > I can appreciate this. Unfortunately, this can be a blind side for > the business. The gentleman I spoke with that had the unit said they > had not run it in three years and rather than do something to fix it, > the "worked around it" literally. THe reason they were getting rid > of it now so cheap was it was collecting crap from one of the other > workstations and obstructing the redirected workflows. > > There has to be a balance between production and techie sides. > Imagine if the business invested 2% of its time in "techie stuff" > That unit and probably others would be up and in production since > they developed the inhouse knowledge (and valued it). > > Just my own rant > > B Via the grapevine I've heard of a company that is working on a cnc ( emc2 ) refit of one of their lathes. If this works they have a considerable number of others on which to clone the same process. From what I've heard I think they have a significant chance of making this work. Dave > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. > Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the > latest in malware threats. > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
> > > I think this has a lot to do with a focus on production and not on the > techie side. > > Dave > > I can appreciate this. Unfortunately, this can be a blind side for the business. The gentleman I spoke with that had the unit said they had not run it in three years and rather than do something to fix it, the "worked around it" literally. THe reason they were getting rid of it now so cheap was it was collecting crap from one of the other workstations and obstructing the redirected workflows. There has to be a balance between production and techie sides. Imagine if the business invested 2% of its time in "techie stuff" That unit and probably others would be up and in production since they developed the inhouse knowledge (and valued it). Just my own rant B -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
On Sat, 12 May 2012 13:26:51 -0400 BRIAN GLACKIN wrote: > I have seen recently a local machine shop "throw away" an Index > Vertical Mill with a dead control for $300 on Craigslist. I was the > second caller THe mill was identical to one sold on government > liqudators for $2,500 several months ago with a speared control > cabinet. > > According to the half owner, the unit was in excellent condition but > they just couldn't figure out how to deal with the constantly dyingg > control. > > IMHO, many machine shop owners with older CNC setups just don't take > the time to learn the electronics and keep up in developments that > might aid thier cause. Its thier capital they are eventually giving > to another for pennies on the dollar. > I think this has a lot to do with a focus on production and not on the techie side. Dave > B > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. > Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the > latest in malware threats. > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
what is this 'spare time' that you mention? i'm intrigued. --- On Sat, 5/12/12, cogoman wrote: > From: cogoman > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" > Date: Saturday, May 12, 2012, 8:36 AM > On 05/12/2012 10:15 AM, k...@gmail.com > wrote: > > There is a bit of talk on some machine shop forums, > arguments perhaps, that > > retrofitting a machine is a waste of time. > > And that it's time and money well spent to just buy a > good used > > machine and move on with making money with it. > > Any comments on this from the list? > It seems like some information for making > a good comment is missing. > This decision, although it can be divided up into lots of > micro-categories, to do it justice needs at least a few > categories. I > suggest these basic ones. > > 1. A machine shop with lots of paying customers, lots > of machining > knowledge, and little electronics knowledge, and no spare > time. > > 2. Someone with time on their hands, and enough > electronic knowledge. > A. a manual machine > that can be bought for a song, and is in > good condition. > B. a CNC machine that > can be bought for a song, and has a > control issue. > C. a CNC machine that > can be bought for a song, and requires > major rebuilding. > > > > From what I've heard, converting a manual > machine to CNC is very > unlikely to be a good decision, although for some it might > work. > > Someone who has lurked in this forum > should know enough parts sources > to make a good decision on parts to replace a control on a > machine > that's in good shape otherwise. > > A CNC machine that's been abused, that has > rusted ball screws and > ways may not be a good choice even if it has a working > control. > > I still use a Bandit control at work > that's limited to 512 program > commands. Even working that is a major limitation for > someone who has > more complicated parts to cut. For what we use it for, > 512 commands is > rarely a limitation at all; but I would suspect the typical > shop would > want to replace at least the computer part. > > For the machine shop that has lots of > expertise in machining, and > little in electronics, a working machine either new or great > used > condition is just the right match. > > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's > security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can > respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the > latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
On 12 May 2012 23:03, Tux Lab wrote: > Used cnc machines are so common and fairly inexpensive, retrofitting > with EMC doesn't make that much sense once you factor in the amount of > time it take to do a retofit. Are you talking about retrofitting LinuxCNC to a used CNC machine here? Many old CNC machines have good iron but broken/old/rubbish controllers. A controller-only retrofit of those machines can be fairly quick and fairly cheap. -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
Used cnc machines are so common and fairly inexpensive, retrofitting with EMC doesn't make that much sense once you factor in the amount of time it take to do a retofit. However, if a replacement machine cost hundreds of thousands, or if you are doing 10 or 20 machines, then retrofitting can probably be a good alternative, especially with EMC vs a proprietary system. John On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 7:15 AM, k...@gmail.com wrote: > There is a bit of talk on some machine shop forums, arguments perhaps, that > retrofitting a machine is a waste of time. > And that it's time and money well spent to just buy a good used > machine and move on with making money with it. > Any comments on this from the list? > > dk > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
this thread? http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/old-cnc-machine-retrofit-success-stories-245900/ Converting from a proprietary expensive control that is a black box and expensive to fix to a open source open hardware pc based control seems like a no brainer... You are also going to know your machine in and out when done. Our machine is sitting on 2 ft of custom poured concrete. Swapping it out with a new machine is going to be a lot more expensive. (and from what I have seen - our old iron is built a ton better) sam On 05/12/2012 09:15 AM, k...@gmail.com wrote: > There is a bit of talk on some machine shop forums, arguments perhaps, that > retrofitting a machine is a waste of time. > And that it's time and money well spent to just buy a good used > machine and move on with making money with it. > Any comments on this from the list? > > dk > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
I have seen recently a local machine shop "throw away" an Index Vertical Mill with a dead control for $300 on Craigslist. I was the second caller THe mill was identical to one sold on government liqudators for $2,500 several months ago with a speared control cabinet. According to the half owner, the unit was in excellent condition but they just couldn't figure out how to deal with the constantly dyingg control. IMHO, many machine shop owners with older CNC setups just don't take the time to learn the electronics and keep up in developments that might aid thier cause. Its thier capital they are eventually giving to another for pennies on the dollar. B -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
Uh, it can be entertaining to make money! :) On May 12, 2012 12:17 PM, "andy pugh" wrote: > On 12 May 2012 15:15, k...@gmail.com wrote: > > There is a bit of talk on some machine shop forums, arguments perhaps, > that > > retrofitting a machine is a waste of time. > > I think it depends on what you mean by "retrofitting". > > Converting a manual machine probably does't make much sense in many > cases. However, I am converting a small milling machine because that > is the size I want, and there are no CNC machines of that size and > quality out there. > > > And that it's time and money well spent to just buy a good used > > machine and move on with making money with it. > > A lot of retrofits have no ambition to ever make money, the aim is to > gain the capability without spending much money. I have absolutely no > interest in making parts for money. In fact i have turned down offers. > I want my machines to make things for my own entertainment. > > -- > atp > The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, > wrong. > > > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
On 12 May 2012 15:15, k...@gmail.com wrote: > There is a bit of talk on some machine shop forums, arguments perhaps, that > retrofitting a machine is a waste of time. I think it depends on what you mean by "retrofitting". Converting a manual machine probably does't make much sense in many cases. However, I am converting a small milling machine because that is the size I want, and there are no CNC machines of that size and quality out there. > And that it's time and money well spent to just buy a good used > machine and move on with making money with it. A lot of retrofits have no ambition to ever make money, the aim is to gain the capability without spending much money. I have absolutely no interest in making parts for money. In fact i have turned down offers. I want my machines to make things for my own entertainment. -- atp The idea that there is no such thing as objective truth is, quite simply, wrong. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
Well dk, this is part of my tasks starting on monday... I do indeed already have some experience as mentioned on this list and elsewhere and I have in fact not decided yet what to think. You and other interested parties are welcome to follow the development on the Swedish front. There is certain interest in the country citing recent articles in the business press but I believe the entire task of rerofitting a CNC machine need a fair amount of competence in machining, mechanics, computers and electronics, mentioning a few needed disciplines... Anyway, our machines seem to need some service today and also recently according to my boss who threw up at about € 2 for external service last year if I understood him correctly. He have a lot of vintage machines from the eighties and nineties 4 Storebro lathes, two INDEX lathes and one Leadwell T7. The modern machines are both milling machines 3-5 years old, a FIRST MCV 850/1100 and a DUGARD 740 >From my part I have given attention to a Storebro260 lathe who has some >problems with the spindle engine power circuitry and a communication problem >yet unsolved. A recent issue is a malfunctioning Storebro 200 Lathe who I will deliver some more info on soon. This machine did push the revolver into the chuck when we asked it to find it's machine reference points who is in the other direction... I believe we have a fatal connection problem there. To be continued... / Roger 12 maj 2012 kl. 16.55 skrev emc-users-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net: > There is a bit of talk on some machine shop forums, arguments perhaps, that > retrofitting a machine is a waste of time. > And that it's time and money well spent to just buy a good used > machine and move on with making money with it. > Any comments on this from the list? > > dk --- abCNC --- Roger Holmquist Bockarp villa Tallebo 59592 Mjölby +46-706-250123 +46-768-788477 +46-142-20542 ro...@abcnc.se http://abcnc.se -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
On 05/12/2012 10:15 AM, k...@gmail.com wrote: > There is a bit of talk on some machine shop forums, arguments perhaps, that > retrofitting a machine is a waste of time. > And that it's time and money well spent to just buy a good used > machine and move on with making money with it. > Any comments on this from the list? It seems like some information for making a good comment is missing. This decision, although it can be divided up into lots of micro-categories, to do it justice needs at least a few categories. I suggest these basic ones. 1. A machine shop with lots of paying customers, lots of machining knowledge, and little electronics knowledge, and no spare time. 2. Someone with time on their hands, and enough electronic knowledge. A. a manual machine that can be bought for a song, and is in good condition. B. a CNC machine that can be bought for a song, and has a control issue. C. a CNC machine that can be bought for a song, and requires major rebuilding. From what I've heard, converting a manual machine to CNC is very unlikely to be a good decision, although for some it might work. Someone who has lurked in this forum should know enough parts sources to make a good decision on parts to replace a control on a machine that's in good shape otherwise. A CNC machine that's been abused, that has rusted ball screws and ways may not be a good choice even if it has a working control. I still use a Bandit control at work that's limited to 512 program commands. Even working that is a major limitation for someone who has more complicated parts to cut. For what we use it for, 512 commands is rarely a limitation at all; but I would suspect the typical shop would want to replace at least the computer part. For the machine shop that has lots of expertise in machining, and little in electronics, a working machine either new or great used condition is just the right match. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
2012/5/12 k...@gmail.com : > There is a bit of talk on some machine shop forums, arguments perhaps, that > retrofitting a machine is a waste of time. [irony=true] Yes, of course, retrofitting 20-years old machine with a budget 7K EUR is total waste of money, better purchase new machining centre for 180K EUR. That definitely is not a waste of money. [irony=false] I am 101% sure that opinions like You mentioned are actually posted by people, connected to manufacturers or distributors of overpriced machines. Because, if everyone will use their machines as long as the basic mechanics last (and solving the electronics problems and minor mechanical issues by retrofitting them) will considerably reduce their sales. So I always am very skeptical about such opinions. Unless I do personally know that person. > And that it's time and money well spent to just buy a good used > machine and move on with making money with it. Why would anyone sell a used machine in perfect condition? Even if they do, the price will be adequately high. I guess that machines less than 5 years old fall into category - used, but still in great condition. If new machine costs 180K EUR, how do You think, will it be cheaper than 40-50K EUR? I do not think so. It depends, on what do people do during retrofit: I have been offered a 4-axis CNC mill. Produced 24 years ago. Total runtime - 0 hours. The controls cabinet was damaged, when it was transported from factory, the machine has never been turned on. The price - ridiculously low. Estimated cost to get LinuxCNC running on it - less than 2KEUR (included - brand new PC, I/O electronics, servo drives and wiring, partially included - my own time and effort). Total cost - maybe 10% of the previous example. So tell me one good reason, why should I refuse that deal? On the other hand, if retrofit is associated with use of Siemens (or whatever other ridiculously overpriced stuff) solutions, then I agree - IMHO that is total waste of money. I have heard that the licence for their CNC controller software alone is 7-8K EUR and it will not do anything that LinuxCNC is not capable of. Even better, try to change something there - add function You would like to have or whatever. Did I mention that their CNC controller probably will work only with their proprietary field bus and require their servo drives, which cost 20x Mesa drive price? The licence price alone would let You to retrofit all the electronics and drives and get LinuxCNC up and making chips. It is all about money and cnc industry is so overpriced that they will do whatever it takes to keep people away from retrofitting their old machines instead of purchasing new (even if You purchase used machine, the seller is very likely to purchase brand new from the distributor). Viesturs -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
It also depends what you mean by good used. a dead control with good machine a machine with no control a manual machine I retrofitted to an educational machine where the computer was out of date the machine itself looked like it had done no work at all so for £330 +carriage I had the mechanics and stepper drivers, just had to re purpose a PC Dave Caroline -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
I've found the older controls a giant pain in the ass to run and LinuxCNC is a joy to run... well worth it to me to convert to gain the improved capabilities of a modern control. Now if I just had some time to finish my Anilam conversion... John On 5/12/2012 9:15 AM, k...@gmail.com wrote: > There is a bit of talk on some machine shop forums, arguments perhaps, that > retrofitting a machine is a waste of time. > And that it's time and money well spent to just buy a good used > machine and move on with making money with it. > Any comments on this from the list? > > dk > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] OT-Retrofitting machines
There is a bit of talk on some machine shop forums, arguments perhaps, that retrofitting a machine is a waste of time. And that it's time and money well spent to just buy a good used machine and move on with making money with it. Any comments on this from the list? dk -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
