Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> >> The feedback comes from the rotary encoder that is attached to the back
> >> end of the servo shaft. So no backlash there.
> >
> > I was just thinking that looking at the command and feedback traces
> > might reveal any response issues which could be backlash, encoder
> > latency, or whatever.
> 
> Another thought, pull the motor and turn the rotary table's input shaft 
> to get an idea of the load the motor sees. I think it is good 
> integration practice to check isolated shafts, couplers, screws and 
> slides by hand while fitting a machine.

To check by hand for jerk is a good idea. To run a step response is also a good 
idea.

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode

[Nicklas Karlsson]

I both succeeded and failed. I think inertia is high and friction low the axis 
it failed.


On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 15:49:34 -0400 (EDT)
"Todd  Zuercher" <zuerc...@embarqmail.com> wrote:

> at_pid was a nice idea, but has anyone successfully made it work?  (I'm 
> pretty sure there is a good reason few if anybody is using it.)
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Marius Liebenberg" <mar...@mastercut.co.za>
> To: "Nicklas Karlsson" <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>, "Enhanced Machine 
> Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 1:33:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode
> 
>   I have not. Dont know how I did not know about this. I will try it.
> 
> >Did you try the tune mode?
> >
> >It could be found in the hal configuratio and set via "setp" command. 
> >Manual http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/at_pid.9.html further 
> >down on page "pid.N.tune-"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 06:16:04 +
> >"Marius Liebenberg" <mar...@mastercut.co.za> wrote:
> >
> >>  Hi All
> >>  I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine
> >>  with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and 
> >>working
> >>  very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe
> >>  oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the
> >>  servo.
> >>
> >>  The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed
> >>  the stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction 
> >>planetary
> >>  gearbox.
> >>  I attached the HAl and INI files. Maybe I missed the obvious again
> >>
> >>  The setup is like this: I use a 5i23 with two H Bridges from Mesa.
> >>  Remaining ports has a 7i33 and a 7i37 to drive the 4th axis servo and 
> >>do
> >>  some I/O.
> >>
> >>  -
> >>  Regards / Groete
> >>
> >>  Marius D. Liebenberg
> >>  +27 82 698 3251
> >>  +27 12 743 6064
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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Kirk Wallace]

On 10/25/2016 01:15 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On 10/25/2016 10:35 AM, Marius Liebenberg wrote:
>> The feedback comes from the rotary encoder that is attached to the back
>> end of the servo shaft. So no backlash there.
>
> I was just thinking that looking at the command and feedback traces
> might reveal any response issues which could be backlash, encoder
> latency, or whatever.

Another thought, pull the motor and turn the rotary table's input shaft 
to get an idea of the load the motor sees. I think it is good 
integration practice to check isolated shafts, couplers, screws and 
slides by hand while fitting a machine.


-- 
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http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Kirk Wallace]

On 10/25/2016 10:35 AM, Marius Liebenberg wrote:
> The feedback comes from the rotary encoder that is attached to the back
> end of the servo shaft. So no backlash there.

I was just thinking that looking at the command and feedback traces 
might reveal any response issues which could be backlash, encoder 
latency, or whatever.


-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode

[Todd Zuercher]

at_pid was a nice idea, but has anyone successfully made it work?  (I'm pretty 
sure there is a good reason few if anybody is using it.)

- Original Message -
From: "Marius Liebenberg" <mar...@mastercut.co.za>
To: "Nicklas Karlsson" <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>, "Enhanced Machine 
Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 1:33:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode

  I have not. Dont know how I did not know about this. I will try it.

>Did you try the tune mode?
>
>It could be found in the hal configuratio and set via "setp" command. 
>Manual http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/at_pid.9.html further 
>down on page "pid.N.tune-"
>
>
>
>
>
>On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 06:16:04 +
>"Marius Liebenberg" <mar...@mastercut.co.za> wrote:
>
>>  Hi All
>>  I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine
>>  with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and 
>>working
>>  very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe
>>  oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the
>>  servo.
>>
>>  The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed
>>  the stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction 
>>planetary
>>  gearbox.
>>  I attached the HAl and INI files. Maybe I missed the obvious again
>>
>>  The setup is like this: I use a 5i23 with two H Bridges from Mesa.
>>  Remaining ports has a 7i33 and a 7i37 to drive the 4th axis servo and 
>>do
>>  some I/O.
>>
>>  -
>>  Regards / Groete
>>
>>  Marius D. Liebenberg
>>  +27 82 698 3251
>>  +27 12 743 6064
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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode

[Marius Liebenberg]

I take it that the PID values that where calculated will be seen in 
halshow for that PID? One can then use those in the normal PID setup.

-- Original Message --
From: "Nicklas Karlsson" <nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com>
To: "Marius Liebenberg" <mar...@mastercut.co.za>; "Enhanced Machine 
Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: 2016-10-25 17:58:00
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode

>Did you try the tune mode?
>
>It could be found in the hal configuratio and set via "setp" command. 
>Manual http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/at_pid.9.html further 
>down on page "pid.N.tune-"
>
>
>
>
>
>On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 06:16:04 +
>"Marius Liebenberg" <mar...@mastercut.co.za> wrote:
>
>>  Hi All
>>  I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine
>>  with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and 
>>working
>>  very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe
>>  oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the
>>  servo.
>>
>>  The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed
>>  the stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction 
>>planetary
>>  gearbox.
>>  I attached the HAl and INI files. Maybe I missed the obvious again
>>
>>  The setup is like this: I use a 5i23 with two H Bridges from Mesa.
>>  Remaining ports has a 7i33 and a 7i37 to drive the 4th axis servo and 
>>do
>>  some I/O.
>>
>>  -
>>  Regards / Groete
>>
>>  Marius D. Liebenberg
>>  +27 82 698 3251
>>  +27 12 743 6064
--
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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Marius Liebenberg]

The feedback comes from the rotary encoder that is attached to the back 
end of the servo shaft. So no backlash there.


-- Original Message --
From: "Kirk Wallace" <kwall...@wallacecompany.com>
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: 2016-10-25 18:46:32
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

>On 10/24/2016 11:16 PM, Marius Liebenberg wrote:
>>  Hi All
>>  I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine
>>  with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and 
>>working
>>  very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe
>>  oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the
>>  servo.
>
>This sounds similar to a setup with a linear scale used as feedback as
>opposed to a rotary encoder on the motor. This configuration usually 
>has
>a lot of backlash between the motor position (command input) and the
>scale (feedback). When a command is invoked it can take quite a while
>for the feedback to show up. This makes the control loop unstable
>because corrections always come too late. I would connect HALscope to
>check the delay between the loop command and feedback. Ideally, 
>feedback
>should start coming in on the next servo period after a command.
>
>
>--
>Kirk Wallace
>http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
>http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/
>
>--
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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode

[Marius Liebenberg]

  I have not. Dont know how I did not know about this. I will try it.

>Did you try the tune mode?
>
>It could be found in the hal configuratio and set via "setp" command. 
>Manual http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/at_pid.9.html further 
>down on page "pid.N.tune-"
>
>
>
>
>
>On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 06:16:04 +
>"Marius Liebenberg"  wrote:
>
>>  Hi All
>>  I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine
>>  with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and 
>>working
>>  very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe
>>  oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the
>>  servo.
>>
>>  The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed
>>  the stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction 
>>planetary
>>  gearbox.
>>  I attached the HAl and INI files. Maybe I missed the obvious again
>>
>>  The setup is like this: I use a 5i23 with two H Bridges from Mesa.
>>  Remaining ports has a 7i33 and a 7i37 to drive the 4th axis servo and 
>>do
>>  some I/O.
>>
>>  -
>>  Regards / Groete
>>
>>  Marius D. Liebenberg
>>  +27 82 698 3251
>>  +27 12 743 6064
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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Kirk Wallace]

On 10/24/2016 11:16 PM, Marius Liebenberg wrote:
> Hi All
> I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine
> with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and working
> very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe
> oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the
> servo.

This sounds similar to a setup with a linear scale used as feedback as 
opposed to a rotary encoder on the motor. This configuration usually has 
a lot of backlash between the motor position (command input) and the 
scale (feedback). When a command is invoked it can take quite a while 
for the feedback to show up. This makes the control loop unstable 
because corrections always come too late. I would connect HALscope to 
check the delay between the loop command and feedback. Ideally, feedback 
should start coming in on the next servo period after a command.


-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup --> tune mode

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Did you try the tune mode?

It could be found in the hal configuratio and set via "setp" command. Manual 
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/at_pid.9.html further down on page 
"pid.N.tune-"





On Tue, 25 Oct 2016 06:16:04 +
"Marius Liebenberg"  wrote:

> Hi All
> I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine 
> with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and working 
> very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe 
> oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the 
> servo.
> 
> The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed 
> the stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction planetary 
> gearbox.
> I attached the HAl and INI files. Maybe I missed the obvious again
> 
> The setup is like this: I use a 5i23 with two H Bridges from Mesa. 
> Remaining ports has a 7i33 and a 7i37 to drive the 4th axis servo and do 
> some I/O.
> 
> -
> Regards / Groete
> 
> Marius D. Liebenberg
> +27 82 698 3251
> +27 12 743 6064

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Marius Liebenberg]

The ratio is 40:1. If I make the pulses per rev very high the system 
becomes stable but the calibration is out off course. This supports your 
idea I think if I understand you correctly.

-- Original Message --
From: "andy pugh" <bodge...@gmail.com>
To: "Marius Liebenberg" <mar...@mastercut.co.za>; "Enhanced Machine 
Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: 2016-10-25 14:01:06
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

>On 25 October 2016 at 07:16, Marius Liebenberg <mar...@mastercut.co.za> 
>wrote:
>
>>  The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed 
>>the
>>  stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction planetary 
>>gearbox.
>>  I attached the HAl and INI files.
>
>What is the ratio of the gearbox?
>
>I think I would expect much smaller gains for a rotary than for a
>linear with the same servo.
>Simplistically, one full revolution out-of-position for the linear
>axis might be 2mm, but one full motor-rev out-of-position for the
>rotary is 36 degrees with a 10:1 gearbox.
>
>That is about a 20x difference, and I would anticipate a 20:1 ratio in
>PID gains to match.
>
>--
>atp
>"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
>designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
>lunatics."
>— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[andy pugh]

On 25 October 2016 at 07:16, Marius Liebenberg  wrote:

> The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed the
> stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction planetary gearbox.
> I attached the HAl and INI files.

What is the ratio of the gearbox?

I think I would expect much smaller gains for a rotary than for a
linear with the same servo.
Simplistically, one full revolution out-of-position for the linear
axis might be 2mm, but one full motor-rev out-of-position for the
rotary is 36 degrees with a 10:1 gearbox.

That is about a 20x difference, and I would anticipate a 20:1 ratio in
PID gains to match.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Marius Liebenberg]

Hi Rene
I am using the standard analog servo channel on the 7i37 with an encoder 
feedback that comes from the servo drive.

-- Original Message --
From: "Rene Hopf" <reneh...@mac.com>
To: "Marius Liebenberg" <mar...@mastercut.co.za>; "Enhanced Machine 
Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: 2016-10-25 12:19:49
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

>Hi,
>First thing I notice, you dont have any ff term. I guess you have ho 
>external current or velocity regulator, just a position pid outputting 
>voltage via pwm?
>That is not really the best setup, but still should be possible to 
>tune…
>
>Rene
>
>>  On 25 Oct 2016, at 08:16, Marius Liebenberg <mar...@mastercut.co.za> 
>>wrote:
>>
>>  Hi All
>>  I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine 
>>with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and 
>>working very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a 
>>severe oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to 
>>stabilize the servo.
>>
>>  The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed 
>>the stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction 
>>planetary gearbox.
>>  I attached the HAl and INI files. Maybe I missed the obvious again
>>
>>  The setup is like this: I use a 5i23 with two H Bridges from Mesa. 
>>Remaining ports has a 7i33 and a 7i37 to drive the 4th axis servo and 
>>do some I/O.
>>
>>  -
>>  Regards / Groete
>>
>>  Marius D. Liebenberg
>>  +27 82 698 3251
>>  +27 12 743 6064
>>  >Attachment.png><5i23_router.ini><5i23_router_4th.hal>--
>>  The Command Line: Reinvented for Modern Developers
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>>  Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>  https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Rene Hopf]

Hi,
First thing I notice, you dont have any ff term. I guess you have ho external 
current or velocity regulator, just a position pid outputting voltage via pwm?
That is not really the best setup, but still should be possible to tune…

Rene

> On 25 Oct 2016, at 08:16, Marius Liebenberg  wrote:
> 
> Hi All
> I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine with the 
> 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and working very well but 
> the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe oscillation and I 
> cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the servo.
> 
> The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed the 
> stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction planetary gearbox.
> I attached the HAl and INI files. Maybe I missed the obvious again
> 
> The setup is like this: I use a 5i23 with two H Bridges from Mesa. Remaining 
> ports has a 7i33 and a 7i37 to drive the 4th axis servo and do some I/O.
> 
> -
> Regards / Groete
> 
> Marius D. Liebenberg
> +27 82 698 3251
> +27 12 743 6064
>  Attachment.png><5i23_router.ini><5i23_router_4th.hal>--
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[Emc-users] Problem with servo setup

[Marius Liebenberg]

Hi All
I have a problem with a machine using servos. It is a 4 axis machine 
with the 4th axis being rotary. The linear servos are tuned and working 
very well but the rotary axis is not behaving well. It has a severe 
oscillation and I cannot seem to get the PID trimmed to stabilize the 
servo.


The 4th axis used to be a stepper and that worked well but we changed 
the stepper for a servo to get more speed through a reduction planetary 
gearbox.

I attached the HAl and INI files. Maybe I missed the obvious again

The setup is like this: I use a 5i23 with two H Bridges from Mesa. 
Remaining ports has a 7i33 and a 7i37 to drive the 4th axis servo and do 
some I/O.


-
Regards / Groete

Marius D. Liebenberg
+27 82 698 3251
+27 12 743 6064


5i23_router.ini
Description: Binary data


5i23_router_4th.hal
Description: Binary data
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