Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Alexander Buchner]

On 04.02.2015 19:07, Alexander Buchner wrote:
> On 04.02.2015 19:00, Bob Williams wrote:
>> I'd be surprised if Ubuntu gives you GnuPG 1.4. What is the output of
>>
>> gpg --version?
> 
> I have a Ubuntu 14.10 system:
> 
> @@@:~$ gpg --version
> gpg (GnuPG) 1.4.16
> Copyright (C) 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
> License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later
> 
> This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it.
> There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.
> 
> Home: ~/.gnupg
> Supported algorithms:
> Pubkey: RSA, RSA-E, RSA-S, ELG-E, DSA
> Cipher: IDEA, 3DES, CAST5, BLOWFISH, AES, AES192, AES256, TWOFISH,
> CAMELLIA128, CAMELLIA192, CAMELLIA256
> Hash: MD5, SHA1, RIPEMD160, SHA256, SHA384, SHA512,

Now I tried gpg2 under Ubuntu and directly stumbled upon a bug with
refreshing public keys:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnupg2/+bug/1421640

For those of you who have the same problem, please support this bug report.




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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Doug Barton]

On 2/7/15 10:33 AM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:

You're contradicting decades of experience with users being dragged
kicking and screaming to upgrade to new versions of things, long
after the one they're using is EOL. How many requests for help do we
get on gnupg-users related to prehistoric versions of PGP, for
example?


Not many anymore.  And the choice is between an orderly upgrade path or
a panicked one, and that's an easy call to make.


Yes, you and Patrick have made the real priorities clear now, and I've 
already said that I'm ready to move on. :)



And I sincerely doubt that Werner is going to yank the rug out from
under the community on a 1.4.x EOL in any case. So I find your
scenario here very dubious.


It's come very close to happening, multiple times.  Until very recently
Werner had been underpaid and undersupported, and he's got a wife and
young daughter to support.  Summer of 2013 he almost pulled the plug on
the whole thing in order to take a regular paying job to support his family.

http://www.propublica.org/article/the-worlds-email-encryption-software-relies-on-one-guy-who-is-going-broke


Yes, I've read the article, and followed the situation on the 
gnupg-users list with great sympathy (I was in the exact same situation 
not that long ago).


If we were still in the scenario where Werner was underfunded I might 
have been just as worked up about this issue as you are. You call me 
"naive" for wanting to focus on the present reality, I can just as 
easily call you a fear-monger for wanting to ignore it ... Or we can 
actually move on, as I've said I'm ready to do several times now. :)


Doug


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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Phil Stracchino]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 02/07/15 01:04, Doug Barton wrote:
> On 2/6/15 3:58 PM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>>> ... except that the support for GnuPG 2.0.x is already in
>>> Enigmail.
>> 
>> You're misunderstanding who I'm talking about when I say "we're
>> caught flat-footed."  I don't mean us-the-developers.  I mean
>> us-the-community. If 1.4 gets EOLed there's going to be a mad
>> rush of people trying to upgrade, and then that tidal flood
>> you're worried about *will* happen.
> 
> You're contradicting decades of experience with users being dragged
>  kicking and screaming to upgrade to new versions of things, long
> after the one they're using is EOL. How many requests for help do
> we get on gnupg-users related to prehistoric versions of PGP, for
> example?

I still get calls and tickets at my job from customers looking for
support on MySQL 4.  Occasionally even MySQL 3.  They are running
commercial sites on MySQL versions that have been end-of-life for over
ten years.


- -- 
  Phil Stracchino
  Babylon Communications
  ph...@caerllewys.net
  p...@co.ordinate.org
  Landline: 603.293.8485
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Robert J. Hansen]

> You're contradicting decades of experience with users being dragged 
> kicking and screaming to upgrade to new versions of things, long
> after the one they're using is EOL. How many requests for help do we
> get on gnupg-users related to prehistoric versions of PGP, for
> example?

Not many anymore.  And the choice is between an orderly upgrade path or
a panicked one, and that's an easy call to make.

> And I sincerely doubt that Werner is going to yank the rug out from 
> under the community on a 1.4.x EOL in any case. So I find your
> scenario here very dubious.

It's come very close to happening, multiple times.  Until very recently
Werner had been underpaid and undersupported, and he's got a wife and
young daughter to support.  Summer of 2013 he almost pulled the plug on
the whole thing in order to take a regular paying job to support his family.

http://www.propublica.org/article/the-worlds-email-encryption-software-relies-on-one-guy-who-is-going-broke

Nicolai, speaking for Enigmail, said "If there is one nightmare that we
fear, then it's the fact that Werner Koch is no longer available ...
It's a shame that he is alone and that he has such a bad financial
situation."  And he's absolutely right.

I'm breathing easier now that Werner's got some funding, but if you
think we haven't been close to losing Werner -- or that it couldn't
happen again -- then you're just naïve.



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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Patrick Brunschwig]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 07.02.15 00:24, Doug Barton wrote:
> On 2/6/15 3:05 PM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>>> By that same token, what compelling use case does 2.0.x provide
>>> that 1.4.x does not?
>> 
>> Werner has several times made various noises about stopping work
>> on 1.4, as for a very long time he's been operating on a
>> paper-thin budget of time and resources.  If the workload on 2.1
>> increases 1.4 won't get dropped, but it'll get further and
>> further behind feature parity with the 2.1 series.  Doing an
>> upgrade now to 2.0 guarantees that we won't be caught flat-footed
>> if-and-when GnuPG 1.4 stops receiving updates.
> 
> ... except that the support for GnuPG 2.0.x is already in
> Enigmail. Removing support for 1.4.x helps exactly 0 users, unless
> you agree with Patrick that Enigmail should be used as a lever to
> "encourage" users to upgrade.
> 
>>> The gpg-agent is interesting, and potentially useful for heavy 
>>> command line PGP users; but for Enigmail's purposes you've
>>> already got that covered.
>> 
>> Except for bugs in it.
> 
> I see no clamor from 1.4.x users to improve password caching for 
> Enigmail. Am I missing something?

FWIW, I collected a list of bugs that are either only related to GnuPG
1.4, or that are only there because we still support GnuPG 1.4. I'm
sure there are more bugs that my quick search didn't find.

Most of these bugs are "wont-fix", but in fact they are all true
unfixed bugs. If I would want to fix all of these bugs _properly_, I'd
estimate it would take at least a full release cycle and cause major
changes to the code in Enigmail.

https://sourceforge.net/p/enigmail/bugs/search/?q=labels%3Agpg1.4

- -Patrick
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Patrick Brunschwig]

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On 06.02.15 23:30, Doug Barton wrote:
[...]
> 
> By that same token, what compelling use case does 2.0.x provide
> that 1.4.x does not? The gpg-agent is interesting, and potentially
> useful for heavy command line PGP users; but for Enigmail's
> purposes you've already got that covered. Personally I would still
> not have upgraded any of my systems if I hadn't needed to work on
> 2.0.x support for my (Al)pine PGP package.

For example the ability to properly handle different passwords for
different keys. Plus the fact that the password is better not kept in
Thunderbird but in a separate process, where it cannot be attacked by
a combination of a buggy mail client and a malicious mail.

> OTOH, if you want to use Enigmail to advocate for the position
> that users _should_ migrate to 2.0.x, that's a whole different
> kettle of fish. I disagree quite strongly with your position, but I
> can't stop you either. :)
> 
> More and more this sounds like you've already made up your mind.
> So again, good luck with the support burden you're creating for
> yourself.

Not at all. I certainly have my position, but if someone would bring
up a _strong_ reason that I was not aware of I could change my mind.
However, this didn't happen yet ;-)

- -Patrick

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Doug Barton]

On 2/6/15 3:58 PM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:

... except that the support for GnuPG 2.0.x is already in Enigmail.


You're misunderstanding who I'm talking about when I say "we're caught
flat-footed."  I don't mean us-the-developers.  I mean us-the-community.
  If 1.4 gets EOLed there's going to be a mad rush of people trying to
upgrade, and then that tidal flood you're worried about *will* happen.


You're contradicting decades of experience with users being dragged 
kicking and screaming to upgrade to new versions of things, long after 
the one they're using is EOL. How many requests for help do we get on 
gnupg-users related to prehistoric versions of PGP, for example?


And I sincerely doubt that Werner is going to yank the rug out from 
under the community on a 1.4.x EOL in any case. So I find your scenario 
here very dubious.



If that was the only reason for doing this, it would still be sufficient
-- IMO -- to justify the decision.


Ok, so this move is at least partially about encouraging users to move 
off of 1.4.x, and AFAICS is a done deal in any case. That's different 
from what we were told, but it's neither my decision, nor my problem. :)


Doug


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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Robert J. Hansen]

> ... except that the support for GnuPG 2.0.x is already in Enigmail.

You're misunderstanding who I'm talking about when I say "we're caught
flat-footed."  I don't mean us-the-developers.  I mean us-the-community.
 If 1.4 gets EOLed there's going to be a mad rush of people trying to
upgrade, and then that tidal flood you're worried about *will* happen.

Compare this to if the next version of Enigmail checks to see if GnuPG
1.4 is being used, and if so, puts up a one-time screen saying "Hello!
You're using an old version of GnuPG.  In 2016 Enigmail will start
requiring GnuPG 2.  You can download it for your operating system at...
[insert OS-specific link here]."  And the check could be repeated once a
month, giving polite prompts to people still running 1.4 to upgrade.

One involves a mad rush, and the other is a more orderly walk towards
the exit.

If that was the only reason for doing this, it would still be sufficient
-- IMO -- to justify the decision.

> Removing support for 1.4.x helps exactly 0 users...

It helps users by encouraging them to migrate to a newer codebase which
has much better support and maintenance.  And it helps users by axing
out a large chunk of code that has been the source of serious bugs in
the past, and which -- IMO -- almost certainly still has serious bugs in
it.  (Which is absolutely no slight on the skill or professionalism of
the developers.)

> I see no clamor from 1.4.x users to improve password caching for 
> Enigmail. Am I missing something?

Yes.  Look at the bug tracker.

> For the Enigmail devs, sure, that's a compelling use case. :)  And 
> again, I sincerely hope I'm wrong that "some support issues" will 
> actually be a tidal wave of unhappy users ...

I'm pretty sure you're wrong.



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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Doug Barton]

On 2/6/15 3:05 PM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:

By that same token, what compelling use case does 2.0.x provide that
1.4.x does not?


Werner has several times made various noises about stopping work on 1.4,
as for a very long time he's been operating on a paper-thin budget of
time and resources.  If the workload on 2.1 increases 1.4 won't get
dropped, but it'll get further and further behind feature parity with
the 2.1 series.  Doing an upgrade now to 2.0 guarantees that we won't be
caught flat-footed if-and-when GnuPG 1.4 stops receiving updates.


... except that the support for GnuPG 2.0.x is already in Enigmail. 
Removing support for 1.4.x helps exactly 0 users, unless you agree with 
Patrick that Enigmail should be used as a lever to "encourage" users to 
upgrade.



The gpg-agent is interesting, and potentially useful for heavy
command line PGP users; but for Enigmail's purposes you've already
got that covered.


Except for bugs in it.


I see no clamor from 1.4.x users to improve password caching for 
Enigmail. Am I missing something?



Upgrading to 2.0 means we eat our broccoli, deal
with some support issues, and manage to cut a large chunk of the
codebase which we know has bugs in it.  That, too, is a compelling case
for 2.0.x.


For the Enigmail devs, sure, that's a compelling use case. :)  And 
again, I sincerely hope I'm wrong that "some support issues" will 
actually be a tidal wave of unhappy users ...


Doug


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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Robert J. Hansen]

> By that same token, what compelling use case does 2.0.x provide that 
> 1.4.x does not?

Werner has several times made various noises about stopping work on 1.4,
as for a very long time he's been operating on a paper-thin budget of
time and resources.  If the workload on 2.1 increases 1.4 won't get
dropped, but it'll get further and further behind feature parity with
the 2.1 series.  Doing an upgrade now to 2.0 guarantees that we won't be
caught flat-footed if-and-when GnuPG 1.4 stops receiving updates.

Right now he's maintaining three distinct branches.  I'm (pleasantly!)
surprised he's managed to do it this far, but I don't expect it will go
on much longer.

> The gpg-agent is interesting, and potentially useful for heavy
> command line PGP users; but for Enigmail's purposes you've already 
> got that covered.

Except for bugs in it.  Upgrading to 2.0 means we eat our broccoli, deal
with some support issues, and manage to cut a large chunk of the
codebase which we know has bugs in it.  That, too, is a compelling case
for 2.0.x.



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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Doug Barton]

On 2/5/15 11:35 PM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:

On 05.02.15 21:02, Doug Barton wrote:

On 2/4/15 11:01 PM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:

The question is not so much the effort - you won't get a figure
from me. The main concern is code complexity, which makes things
hard to read, understand, develop, improve or fix.



Yes, I get that. :)  But without some sort of quantification it's
impossible to intelligently answer the question, "Is the cost of
keeping the 1.x code in worth it compared to the benefit of
allowing Enigmail users to continue to use 1.x?"



 From my perspective, until the majority of OS' that ship GnuPG are
shipping 2.x by default, removing 1.x support is premature. I
should add that I'm using that transition as a bellwether of sorts,
as I *think* that seeing this transition will also indicate that
the majority of end users have switched, and are comfortable with
the ways that GnuPG 2 is different.


"The majority of the OS" would be Linux and other Unix derivatives
only.


... which according to Ludwig's stats are 42% of your user base.


On Windows and Mac OS X, the two most common GnuPG tools would
ship 2.0.x.


For OS X I tend to agree. For Windows (51%) I continue to maintain that 
there are way more 1.x users than you seem to be accounting for. I would 
guesstimate that they are probably still the majority, but I have no 
hard data on that.


It's worth pointing out that for Unix'y users (Linux and OS X) being 
able to do gpg-agent and ssh-agent in the same binary provided *some* 
compelling use case for the upgrade. However even that didn't exist for 
Windows users until very recently, and anyone who needs ssh-agent on 
Windows already has PuTTY.



And for Linux, how long do you want to wait any longer? As I wrote,
GnuPG 2.0 was released *8* years ago. If that transition didn't happen
"automatically" by now, then I think it's time to enforce it. The
arguments for Linux distributions to stick to GnuPG 1.4 seem to be
quite weak to me.


By that same token, what compelling use case does 2.0.x provide that 
1.4.x does not? The gpg-agent is interesting, and potentially useful for 
heavy command line PGP users; but for Enigmail's purposes you've already 
got that covered. Personally I would still not have upgraded any of my 
systems if I hadn't needed to work on 2.0.x support for my (Al)pine PGP 
package.


OTOH, if you want to use Enigmail to advocate for the position that 
users _should_ migrate to 2.0.x, that's a whole different kettle of 
fish. I disagree quite strongly with your position, but I can't stop you 
either. :)


More and more this sounds like you've already made up your mind. So 
again, good luck with the support burden you're creating for yourself.


Doug

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Bob Henson]

On 06/02/2015 7:35 am, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
> On 05.02.15 21:02, Doug Barton wrote:
>> On 2/4/15 11:01 PM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>>> The question is not so much the effort - you won't get a figure
>>> from me. The main concern is code complexity, which makes things
>>> hard to read, understand, develop, improve or fix.
> 
>> Yes, I get that. :)  But without some sort of quantification it's 
>> impossible to intelligently answer the question, "Is the cost of
>> keeping the 1.x code in worth it compared to the benefit of
>> allowing Enigmail users to continue to use 1.x?"
> 
>> From my perspective, until the majority of OS' that ship GnuPG are 
>> shipping 2.x by default, removing 1.x support is premature. I
>> should add that I'm using that transition as a bellwether of sorts,
>> as I *think* that seeing this transition will also indicate that
>> the majority of end users have switched, and are comfortable with
>> the ways that GnuPG 2 is different.
> 
> "The majority of the OS" would be Linux and other Unix derivatives
> only. On Windows and Mac OS X, the two most common GnuPG tools would
> ship 2.0.x.
> 
> And for Linux, how long do you want to wait any longer? As I wrote,
> GnuPG 2.0 was released *8* years ago. If that transition didn't happen
> "automatically" by now, then I think it's time to enforce it. The
> arguments for Linux distributions to stick to GnuPG 1.4 seem to be
> quite weak to me.
> 

8 years is not enough for a dedicated Linux user to change anything -
about 80 would suit them better :-)

Following on from this discussion, I installed GnuPG 2.0 in Linux Mint
17.1 64bit yesterday, exactly as it came from the repository. It
installs and works just fine using Thunderbird/Enigmail  - except that
when you go into the preferences it throws up a large screen saying it
won't use gpg-agent. I'm not sure if this matters much, or at all -
those more technical will no doubt tell me. Since it works OK, I see no
reason not to use it. If the information is of any use to anyone, it
also works in Windows 10 64 bit technical preview version.

So, I've changed my early opinion (which was based on ignorance of the
facts) and I see no reason whatever for most people not to switch.

Regards,

Bob


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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Patrick Brunschwig]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 06.02.15 00:33, Doug Barton wrote:
> On 2/5/15 3:26 PM, Ian Mann wrote:
>> With old equipment can the user remain on 1.x with an old version
>> of enigma?
> 
> No, that's the point of this exercise, to remove 1.x support
> altogether. :)

I'd formulate it a little differently. As long as you stick to an old
version of Thunderbird, you won't need the latest Enigmail version and
as long as this is true, you won't need GnuPG 2.0. But if you keep
Thunderbird up to date (which is what I recommend) than you will need
to upgrade GnuPG.

But on which old equipment would GnuPG 2.0 not run? It doesn't require
more resources than GnuPG 1.4. As long as you can run Thunderbird, you
will also be able to run GnuPG 2.0 -- and that's true for _all_
versions of Thunderbird down to 1.0.

- -Patrick

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Patrick Brunschwig]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 05.02.15 21:02, Doug Barton wrote:
> On 2/4/15 11:01 PM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>> The question is not so much the effort - you won't get a figure
>> from me. The main concern is code complexity, which makes things
>> hard to read, understand, develop, improve or fix.
> 
> Yes, I get that. :)  But without some sort of quantification it's 
> impossible to intelligently answer the question, "Is the cost of
> keeping the 1.x code in worth it compared to the benefit of
> allowing Enigmail users to continue to use 1.x?"
> 
> From my perspective, until the majority of OS' that ship GnuPG are 
> shipping 2.x by default, removing 1.x support is premature. I
> should add that I'm using that transition as a bellwether of sorts,
> as I *think* that seeing this transition will also indicate that
> the majority of end users have switched, and are comfortable with
> the ways that GnuPG 2 is different.

"The majority of the OS" would be Linux and other Unix derivatives
only. On Windows and Mac OS X, the two most common GnuPG tools would
ship 2.0.x.

And for Linux, how long do you want to wait any longer? As I wrote,
GnuPG 2.0 was released *8* years ago. If that transition didn't happen
"automatically" by now, then I think it's time to enforce it. The
arguments for Linux distributions to stick to GnuPG 1.4 seem to be
quite weak to me.

- -Patrick

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Enigmail User]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 2/4/2015 12:13, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
> We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we should
> think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.
> 

So I have gone into my Enigmail preferences and I've set the "override"
option to use gpg2.exe. I have  1.4.15 and 2.0.26 in the same sub-directory.

I'm basically testing this here.

- -- 
http://www.glib.com/
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ian Mann]

Thanks Doug,

Ian


On 06/02/15 10:33, Doug Barton wrote:
> On 2/5/15 3:26 PM, Ian Mann wrote:
>> With old equipment can the user remain on 1.x with an old version of enigma?
>
> No, that's the point of this exercise, to remove 1.x support altogether. :)
>
>
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Doug Barton]

On 2/5/15 3:03 PM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:

 From my perspective, until the majority of OS' that ship GnuPG are
shipping 2.x by default, removing 1.x support is premature.


This would be a problem if the OSes that ship Enigmail had no way to
make GnuPG 2 a dependency.  Virtually all of them do, so I don't see the
problem.


Yes, the fact that you don't see the problem is in fact, part of the 
problem. :)


You seem to be equating "A solution exists for this problem" with "This 
problem will cause no inconvenience to users, or support burden for the 
Enigmail team." That is a faulty equivalence.



I get the party line that we encourage people to use the packaged
version, which will fix the dependency problem, etc. etc. But we've
benefited from a significant decrease in support problems ever since
the machine-dependent code was removed from Enigmail, and "You must
use the packaged version!" became untrue.


It didn't become untrue.  The point still remains that packagers are
allowed to do basically anything they want to Thunderbird, and we only
check the Enigmail available on our site against the Thunderbird
released by Mozilla.


Yeah, you've made that point a million times, and I'm not disagreeing 
with you. MY point, which you seem determined to ignore, is that users 
either don't know or don't care about that advice, especially first time 
users who are perusing the Mozilla addons page. All this in spite of 
your best intentions, since users are notorious for not following 
instructions, even when they know about them.


So let me rephrase my argument ... The fact that the machine-dependent 
code has been (almost completely) removed from Enigmail means that when 
users are ignorant of and/or ignore the advice to get Enigmail from the 
same source they get their Thunderbird the negative consequences to the 
user are now very minimal, to the extent that messages to the list 
requesting support on this topic have dropped dramatically, and to 
levels approaching zero.


By changing the structure of Enigmail to once again make loading it from 
your OS' package repo a practical necessity the number of support 
requests on this topic will rise again. Now you can disagree with me on 
how much they will rise, and you can state confidently that no matter 
how much they do rise the Enigmail team is prepared to handle it, but 
you cannot disagree with me that they will go up from present levels.


So my question is, "Is inconveniencing users and increasing support 
costs worth it?" So far everyone that has answered has had some indirect 
variety of "Yes;" either because they think that I am overestimating 
these factors, or that the team can handle them, regardless of how large 
they turn out to be.


Given that I've made my point several times now, I will step aside and 
let others offer their own perspective.


Doug

PS, I hope I'm wrong.


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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Doug Barton]

On 2/5/15 3:26 PM, Ian Mann wrote:

With old equipment can the user remain on 1.x with an old version of enigma?


No, that's the point of this exercise, to remove 1.x support altogether. :)


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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ian Mann]

If the wizard takes users to 2.x then I cannot see an issue. With old equipment 
can the user remain on 1.x with an old version of enigma?


Ian


On 06/02/15 10:08, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> will create _some_ support burden. Is the code to support 1.x in 
>> Enigmail really *that* difficult to work with/work around that it 
>> justifies taking on these burdens now, rather than some time down
>> the road when more people have already transitioned?
> Ah, the broccoli argument.
>
> "I hate broccoli, but it's on my plate, and Mom and Dad won't let me
> have ice cream until I finish all my food.  So do I want to eat the
> broccoli now or later?"
>
> My vote: eat the broccoli now and enjoy the rest of your meal, rather
> than try to enjoy your meal while dreading the broccoli.
>
> Also, users have had eight years to transition.  What are we supposed to
> do, wait another seven years?  Letting Enigmail users know today, "in
> about a year you'll have to be using GnuPG 2.x with Enigmail," is hardly
> ripping the rug out from beneath people's feet.
>
> I'm not in any way worried about this transition.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Doug Barton]

On 2/5/15 3:08 PM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:

will create _some_ support burden. Is the code to support 1.x in
Enigmail really *that* difficult to work with/work around that it
justifies taking on these burdens now, rather than some time down
the road when more people have already transitioned?


Ah, the broccoli argument.

"I hate broccoli, but it's on my plate, and Mom and Dad won't let me
have ice cream until I finish all my food.  So do I want to eat the
broccoli now or later?"

My vote: eat the broccoli now and enjoy the rest of your meal, rather
than try to enjoy your meal while dreading the broccoli.


Sorry, that's a poor analogy. In your example there is no cost 
associated with eating the broccoli, other than your mythical child 
having to choke down a food they don't like. You also ignore more 
attractive alternatives, like the perennial favorite, just put some 
ketchup on it. :)



Also, users have had eight years to transition.  What are we supposed to
do, wait another seven years?


Straw man, argumentum ad absurdum ... should I go on? I didn't suggest 
this, and agree that it's not practical.



Letting Enigmail users know today, "in
about a year you'll have to be using GnuPG 2.x with Enigmail," is hardly
ripping the rug out from beneath people's feet.


I'm not suggesting that either. What I have said several times now is 
that there are still a large number of users on 1.x, and that making 
this change at this time will create a large inconvenience to them, and 
a large support burden for the Enigmail team.


You're saying, "I'm Ok with that," which is fine ... but Patrick 
specifically asked for feedback, so I'm providing some. If the Enigmail 
team is prepared to take on the support burden, and endure/ignore the 
backlash from angry users, that's their choice, and not my problem. :)


Doug



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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Robert J. Hansen]

> will create _some_ support burden. Is the code to support 1.x in 
> Enigmail really *that* difficult to work with/work around that it 
> justifies taking on these burdens now, rather than some time down
> the road when more people have already transitioned?

Ah, the broccoli argument.

"I hate broccoli, but it's on my plate, and Mom and Dad won't let me
have ice cream until I finish all my food.  So do I want to eat the
broccoli now or later?"

My vote: eat the broccoli now and enjoy the rest of your meal, rather
than try to enjoy your meal while dreading the broccoli.

Also, users have had eight years to transition.  What are we supposed to
do, wait another seven years?  Letting Enigmail users know today, "in
about a year you'll have to be using GnuPG 2.x with Enigmail," is hardly
ripping the rug out from beneath people's feet.

I'm not in any way worried about this transition.




smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Robert J. Hansen]

> From my perspective, until the majority of OS' that ship GnuPG are 
> shipping 2.x by default, removing 1.x support is premature.

This would be a problem if the OSes that ship Enigmail had no way to
make GnuPG 2 a dependency.  Virtually all of them do, so I don't see the
problem.

> I get the party line that we encourage people to use the packaged 
> version, which will fix the dependency problem, etc. etc. But we've 
> benefited from a significant decrease in support problems ever since
> the machine-dependent code was removed from Enigmail, and "You must
> use the packaged version!" became untrue.

It didn't become untrue.  The point still remains that packagers are
allowed to do basically anything they want to Thunderbird, and we only
check the Enigmail available on our site against the Thunderbird
released by Mozilla.

Your distro does QA testing on the Enigmail it ships with its own
Thunderbird.

When you use our Enigmail release with your distro's Thunderbird
release, there is *no* QA testing on that configuration.

As a rule, I refuse to recommend packages without QA testing to everyday
users.  For that reason, I think the rule we have is a good one and I
want to see it continue.  And if we keep that rule, then this entire
argument becomes moot.

> What you're proposing will create a whole new set of support
> problems, starting with the return of "You must use the packaged
> version!" on Linux, and similar platforms.

It's not "the return of".  Our guidance on that has never changed.
Regular users should use packages provided by their distros, and only
use our package if they downloaded Thunderbird from Mozilla.



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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Doug Barton]

On 2/5/15 1:03 PM, Ludwig Hügelschäfer wrote:

On 05.02.15 21:02, Doug Barton wrote:


What you're proposing will create a whole new set of support
problems, starting with the return of "You must use the packaged
version!" on Linux, and similar platforms.


No, this requirement will not start the "You must use the packaged
version" case again. This will get into a "either use the packaged
version or install gpg2".


Sure, but those problems are roughly equivalent. IMO you(pl.) are 
dramatically underestimating the number of users who are still on 1.x, 
and would be quite shocked/dismayed at having to switch.


We are used to it by now, but even with the socket version of gpg-agent 
it's a non-trivially different method of operation.



So user convenience/benefit/etc. aside, is the Enigmail team ready
to take on the support cost of what you propose? We have seen
several requests for additional help for the team in recent months,
have your numbers swelled so greatly that this is no longer an
issue?


The rush of support for a not working gpg-agent (especially on Linux)
has declined really significantly, both here and on gpg-users. I think
the distributions now do a very good job in implementing this right.


Again, I think you're underestimating the transition difficulty.


Concerning user base: We've 51% windows and 7% Mac OS users, both of
which have a very good working gpg2 packages with installers working
out of the box (and will be installed by the setup wizard). The
remaining 42% Linux users can be said "apt-get gpg2" and it will work.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/enigmail/statistics/?
last=365

I don't think the support for linux users to install gpg2 will
overwhelm us.


So my disagreement with your analysis aside, isn't the better question 
the one I posed in my message (which you snipped)? There is no question 
that making this change will be an inconvenience to some users (whether 
the number is high as I believe, or low as you seem to believe), and 
will create _some_ support burden. Is the code to support 1.x in 
Enigmail really *that* difficult to work with/work around that it 
justifies taking on these burdens now, rather than some time down the 
road when more people have already transitioned?


Doug

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ludwig Hügelschäfer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 05.02.15 21:02, Doug Barton wrote:

> What you're proposing will create a whole new set of support 
> problems, starting with the return of "You must use the packaged 
> version!" on Linux, and similar platforms.

No, this requirement will not start the "You must use the packaged
version" case again. This will get into a "either use the packaged
version or install gpg2".

> So user convenience/benefit/etc. aside, is the Enigmail team ready 
> to take on the support cost of what you propose? We have seen 
> several requests for additional help for the team in recent months,
> have your numbers swelled so greatly that this is no longer an
> issue?

The rush of support for a not working gpg-agent (especially on Linux)
has declined really significantly, both here and on gpg-users. I think
the distributions now do a very good job in implementing this right.

Concerning user base: We've 51% windows and 7% Mac OS users, both of
which have a very good working gpg2 packages with installers working
out of the box (and will be installed by the setup wizard). The
remaining 42% Linux users can be said "apt-get gpg2" and it will work.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/enigmail/statistics/?
last=365

I don't think the support for linux users to install gpg2 will
overwhelm us.

That said, the call for support is more for our forum at sourceforge
(https://sourceforge.net/p/enigmail/forum/support/) than for the
mailing list here which has a great support from willing and skilled
people.

Ludwig

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Philip Jackson]

On 05/02/15 21:02, Doug Barton wrote:
> From my perspective, until the majority of OS' that ship GnuPG are shipping 
> 2.x
> by default, removing 1.x support is premature. I should add that I'm using 
> that
> transition as a bellwether of sorts, as I *think* that seeing this transition
> will also indicate that the majority of end users have switched, and are
> comfortable with the ways that GnuPG 2 is different.

I used Gpg4win very successfully on Windows7, 64 bit for quite some time and
became 'addicted' to Kleopatra.  So when I changed from Windows to Ubuntu last
year, I was disappointed to find that the distro 'only' had Gnupg 1.4.16 running
as standard.  Gnupg 2.0.22 was available as a package so I installed it, hoping
to regain use of Kleopatra amongst other things.

Unfortunately, I couldn't get the Ubuntu package of 2.0.22 to work for reasons
that I did not understand and was glad that I had 1.4.16 to fall back on for
emails etc during the time it took me to learn how to build my own from source
which I eventually did with gnupg 2.0.26.  It worked fine.  (Unfortunately, I
did not find Kleopatra as good as I had remembered with Windows.)

> I get the party line that we encourage people to use the packaged version, 
> which
> will fix the dependency problem, etc. etc. But we've benefited from a
> significant decrease in support problems ever since the machine-dependent code
> was removed from Enigmail, and "You must use the packaged version!" became 
> untrue.

As noted above, I had no success with the packaged 2.0.22.  I never used the
packaged version of enigmail although Thunderbird is the distro packaged
version.  I have not yet had a problem with enigmail's releases and nightlies
downloaded directly from the enigmail website.

> What you're proposing will create a whole new set of support problems, 
> starting
> with the return of "You must use the packaged version!" on Linux, and similar
> platforms. Add to that the whole new set of support problems that you're going
> to create by dragging your happy GnuPG 1.x using userbase kicking and 
> screaming
> into using 2.x

It seems that eventually, we shall have to move to gnupg 2.1 which cannot
co-exist with 2.0.  If support for gnupg 1.x is abandoned in enigmail, what will
we have to fall back on for email encryption and signing when the new
installations of 2.1 fail to work out-of-the-box ?

Philip




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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Doug Barton]

On 2/4/15 11:01 PM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:

The question is not so much the effort - you won't get a figure from me.
The main concern is code complexity, which makes things hard to read,
understand, develop, improve or fix.


Yes, I get that. :)  But without some sort of quantification it's 
impossible to intelligently answer the question, "Is the cost of keeping 
the 1.x code in worth it compared to the benefit of allowing Enigmail 
users to continue to use 1.x?"


From my perspective, until the majority of OS' that ship GnuPG are 
shipping 2.x by default, removing 1.x support is premature. I should add 
that I'm using that transition as a bellwether of sorts, as I *think* 
that seeing this transition will also indicate that the majority of end 
users have switched, and are comfortable with the ways that GnuPG 2 is 
different.


I get the party line that we encourage people to use the packaged 
version, which will fix the dependency problem, etc. etc. But we've 
benefited from a significant decrease in support problems ever since the 
machine-dependent code was removed from Enigmail, and "You must use the 
packaged version!" became untrue.


What you're proposing will create a whole new set of support problems, 
starting with the return of "You must use the packaged version!" on 
Linux, and similar platforms. Add to that the whole new set of support 
problems that you're going to create by dragging your happy GnuPG 1.x 
using userbase kicking and screaming into using 2.x.


So user convenience/benefit/etc. aside, is the Enigmail team ready to 
take on the support cost of what you propose? We have seen several 
requests for additional help for the team in recent months, have your 
numbers swelled so greatly that this is no longer an issue? :)


You asked for feedback, and my feedback is that while this may be a good 
idea in a few years, it's premature at this time.


hope this helps,

Doug


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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Robert J. Hansen]

> Would it be worthwhile having enigmail pass straight to GnuPG 2.1 ?

No.

GnuPG 2.1 seems like it should be a minor revision (after all, it’s just a .1 
increment), but quite a lot has changed: the addition of ECC, the new keybox 
format, changing how supporting programs work, and more.  Like any substantial 
change, we don’t want to push this on to users prematurely.

Let’s let the early adopters discover bugs in 2.1 and let 2.1 mature a bit.  
Once that happens we can have the discussion about whether Enigmail should 
require 2.1.  Even then, though, I imagine it’ll be a few years before we 
require 2.1 or later.



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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Patrick Brunschwig]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 05.02.15 16:46, Philip Jackson wrote:
> On 04/02/15 18:13, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>> My plan is as follows: * Enigmail 1.8.x will still support GnuPG
>> 1.4.x. However, if Enigmail detects GnuPG 1.4.x, a message will
>> be displayed saying that GnuPG 1.4.x is considered deprecated and
>> will no longer be supported in future major versions of
>> Enigmail.
>> 
>> * Enigmail 1.9.x will not support GnuPG 1.4.x anymore. We will
>> either point users to a web page from where they can download
>> GnuPG 2.x, or we will offer to install GnuPG 2.x directly from
>> Enigmail (just like the wizard already does it). A decision for
>> which way to go is not yet taken. I expect to release Enigmail
>> 1.9 in late Q3 or Q4 2015.
>> 
>> Please let me know if this would cause major issues that I'm not
>> aware of.
> 
> I've read the whole thread (and sub-threads) so far but no-one has
> mentioned GnuPG 2.1 (with the exception of Ludwig who points out
> that it cannot co-exist with 2.0).  Patrick comes close in that he
> refers to 2.x.
> 
> I use 2.0.26 with latest enigmail nightlies and although the number
> of emails using ECC is low at present, it will surely increase.
> Enigmail presently does not give a satisfactorily complete response
> to an email signed with an ECC certificate.
> 
> Would it be worthwhile having enigmail pass straight to GnuPG 2.1
> ?

I would say that's a too big step. We waited for 8 years for GnuPG 2.0
to be rock-solid; GnuPG 2.1 is not yet there. There are still a number
of issues that would disturb users who come from GnuPG 1.4 (e.g.
dropped support for OpenPGP v3 keys).

- -Patrick
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Philip Jackson]

On 04/02/15 18:13, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
> My plan is as follows:
> * Enigmail 1.8.x will still support GnuPG 1.4.x. However, if Enigmail
> detects GnuPG 1.4.x, a message will be displayed saying that GnuPG
> 1.4.x is considered deprecated and will no longer be supported in
> future major versions of Enigmail.
> 
> * Enigmail 1.9.x will not support GnuPG 1.4.x anymore. We will either
> point users to a web page from where they can download GnuPG 2.x, or
> we will offer to install GnuPG 2.x directly from Enigmail (just like
> the wizard already does it). A decision for which way to go is not yet
> taken. I expect to release Enigmail 1.9 in late Q3 or Q4 2015.
> 
> Please let me know if this would cause major issues that I'm not aware of.

I've read the whole thread (and sub-threads) so far but no-one has mentioned
GnuPG 2.1 (with the exception of Ludwig who points out that it cannot co-exist
with 2.0).  Patrick comes close in that he refers to 2.x.

I use 2.0.26 with latest enigmail nightlies and although the number of emails
using ECC is low at present, it will surely increase.  Enigmail presently does
not give a satisfactorily complete response to an email signed with an ECC
certificate.

Would it be worthwhile having enigmail pass straight to GnuPG 2.1 ?

Philip




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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Anne Wilson]

On 04/02/2015 19:20, Andreas Hirsch wrote:
> Bob Henson schrieb am 2015-02-04 um 20:16:
>> On 04/02/2015 5:13 pm, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>>> We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we should
>>> think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.
>>>
>>>
>> Hmm - just tried the GPG4Win installer - it won't allow the installation
>> of GnuPG without Kleopatra too and Kleopatra is very, very flaky under
>> Windows 64 bit. I think before you drop support of 1.4 you should wait
>> until there is a standalone "official" version GnuPG 2.0 for Windows.
> 
> I agree!
> 
Kleopatra installed fine, but as you say, it's not very good on 64-bit.
 Instead I use a mixture of gpg command-line and kgpg for Windows.  That
pulls in a raft of libraries, but works better than Kleopatra.

Anne

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Bob Henson]

On 05/02/2015 6:55 am, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
> On 04.02.15 20:16, Bob Henson wrote:
>> On 04/02/2015 5:13 pm, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>>> We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we should
>>> think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.
>>>
>>>
>> Hmm - just tried the GPG4Win installer - it won't allow the installation
>> of GnuPG without Kleopatra too and Kleopatra is very, very flaky under
>> Windows 64 bit. I think before you drop support of 1.4 you should wait
>> until there is a standalone "official" version GnuPG 2.0 for Windows.
> 
> Excuse me but that's rubish. You can install gpg4win-vanilla, which
> delivery only GnuPG and pinentry, no other tools. That's what Enigmail
> downloads in the Wizard.
> 

P.S. I've got it to work OK now. I set the preferences to override
gpg.exe with gpg2.exe and the top "GPG was found in" line duly changed
to reflect that. I assumed that it would stay that way and unticked the
override, and Enigmail reverted itself to use gpg.exe. I had assumed,
incorrectly, it turned out, that once it was set it would stay set. All
appears to be fine now.

Regards,

Bob





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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Bob Henson]

On 05/02/2015 6:55 am, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
> On 04.02.15 20:16, Bob Henson wrote:
>> On 04/02/2015 5:13 pm, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>>> We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we should
>>> think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.
>>>
>>>
>> Hmm - just tried the GPG4Win installer - it won't allow the installation
>> of GnuPG without Kleopatra too and Kleopatra is very, very flaky under
>> Windows 64 bit. I think before you drop support of 1.4 you should wait
>> until there is a standalone "official" version GnuPG 2.0 for Windows.
> 
> Excuse me but that's rubish. You can install gpg4win-vanilla, which
> delivery only GnuPG and pinentry, no other tools. That's what Enigmail
> downloads in the Wizard.
> 

It's only rubbish if no-one has told you it exists. I have it now and
have installed it. I haven't used the wizard as I have had
Thunderbird/Enigmail installed for a long time and the Wizard didn't
download GnuPG for you when I last ran it some years ago.

Regards,

Bob



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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Bob Henson]

On 04/02/2015 8:15 pm, Doug Barton wrote:
> On 2/4/15 11:16 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
>> On 04/02/2015 5:13 pm, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>>> We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we should
>>> think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.
>>>
>>>
>> Hmm - just tried the GPG4Win installer - it won't allow the installation
>> of GnuPG without Kleopatra too and Kleopatra is very, very flaky under
>> Windows 64 bit.
> 
> I am not sure where you are getting your information. I have used the 
> Gpg4win-Light installer (which does not include Kleopatra) successfully 
> on 64-bit Windows 7, and on XP before that, for many years.
> 
> Doug
> 
> 

I had the full version here, and tried to install from that. I've got
the vanilla version now, and have installed it - although I can't get
the system to use it yet.


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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Patrick Brunschwig]

On 04.02.15 23:28, Doug Barton wrote:
> On 2/4/15 1:21 PM, Ludwig Hügelschäfer wrote:
>> On 04.02.15 21:21, Doug Barton wrote:
>>> On 2/4/15 9:13 AM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
 We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we
 should think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.

 Reasons: * GnuPG 2.0 was released in November 2006; it has proven
 for a long time to be stable. * While GnuPG 1.4 still makes sense
 on embedded devices and computers with limited resources, this
 does not hold anymore for today's PCs. * We still have quite a
 lot of GnuPG 1.4-specific code, and maintenance of Enigmail is
 more complex with more versions of GnuPG (e.g. password handling
 / bug 287).
>>
>>> My knee-jerk reaction is that we're not yet at the point where 1.x
>>> usage has dropped sufficiently to warrant this change,
>>
>> There may have been some misunderstanding.
> 
> Nope, I understood the timeline perfectly. :)  There are still a lot of
> Linux distros that use 1.x by default, and that is not going to change
> any time in the next several years.
> 
>>> but before I cast a "No" vote (for whatever that's worth) I'm
>>> curious as to how much more complex development efforts are due to
>>> the 1.x code?
>>
>> Passphrase handling in Enigmail itself - necessary for gnupg 1.4 - is
>> a provisional solution and has a hard to catch and ugly bug
>> (https://sourceforge.net/p/enigmail/bugs/287/)
> 
> Doesn't actually answer my question. :)  Put a different way, what
> percentage of Enigmail developer time is spent addressing issues that
> only affect GnuPG 1.x?  And perhaps more importantly, what is the
> opportunity cost of leaving the code in? What good/new/exciting things
> will not be able to happen if the 1.x code is not removed?

The question is not so much the effort - you won't get a figure from me.
The main concern is code complexity, which makes things hard to read,
understand, develop, improve or fix.

-Patrick

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Patrick Brunschwig]

On 04.02.15 20:16, Bob Henson wrote:
> On 04/02/2015 5:13 pm, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>> We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we should
>> think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.
>>
>>
> Hmm - just tried the GPG4Win installer - it won't allow the installation
> of GnuPG without Kleopatra too and Kleopatra is very, very flaky under
> Windows 64 bit. I think before you drop support of 1.4 you should wait
> until there is a standalone "official" version GnuPG 2.0 for Windows.

Excuse me but that's rubish. You can install gpg4win-vanilla, which
delivery only GnuPG and pinentry, no other tools. That's what Enigmail
downloads in the Wizard.

-Patrick


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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Daniel Kahn Gillmor]

On Wed 2015-02-04 17:28:48 -0500, Doug Barton wrote:
> Nope, I understood the timeline perfectly. :)  There are still a lot of 
> Linux distros that use 1.x by default, and that is not going to change 
> any time in the next several years.

fwiw, in debian, the GnuPG maintainer team has been discussing how to
move to gpg2 as a default after the release of jessie.  We are not
actively pursuing it right now due to the freeze, though.

This will take a while to propagate to debian stable, of course, and
it's still not a forgone conclusion.  There's work to be done to make
sure that it comes out OK.

However, the linux distributions are the least of your worries, since
even the ones that ship gpg *also* ship gpg2.  I'd be happy to make the
enigmail package depend on gpg2 even if we never manage to make gpg2 the
default version of gpg in debian.

--dkg

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Doug Barton]

On 2/4/15 1:21 PM, Ludwig Hügelschäfer wrote:

On 04.02.15 21:21, Doug Barton wrote:

On 2/4/15 9:13 AM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:

We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we
should think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.

Reasons: * GnuPG 2.0 was released in November 2006; it has proven
for a long time to be stable. * While GnuPG 1.4 still makes sense
on embedded devices and computers with limited resources, this
does not hold anymore for today's PCs. * We still have quite a
lot of GnuPG 1.4-specific code, and maintenance of Enigmail is
more complex with more versions of GnuPG (e.g. password handling
/ bug 287).



My knee-jerk reaction is that we're not yet at the point where 1.x
usage has dropped sufficiently to warrant this change,


There may have been some misunderstanding.


Nope, I understood the timeline perfectly. :)  There are still a lot of 
Linux distros that use 1.x by default, and that is not going to change 
any time in the next several years.



but before I cast a "No" vote (for whatever that's worth) I'm
curious as to how much more complex development efforts are due to
the 1.x code?


Passphrase handling in Enigmail itself - necessary for gnupg 1.4 - is
a provisional solution and has a hard to catch and ugly bug
(https://sourceforge.net/p/enigmail/bugs/287/)


Doesn't actually answer my question. :)  Put a different way, what 
percentage of Enigmail developer time is spent addressing issues that 
only affect GnuPG 1.x?  And perhaps more importantly, what is the 
opportunity cost of leaving the code in? What good/new/exciting things 
will not be able to happen if the 1.x code is not removed?


Doug

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ludwig Hügelschäfer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 04.02.15 21:21, Doug Barton wrote:
> On 2/4/15 9:13 AM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>> We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we
>> should think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.
>> 
>> Reasons: * GnuPG 2.0 was released in November 2006; it has proven
>> for a long time to be stable. * While GnuPG 1.4 still makes sense
>> on embedded devices and computers with limited resources, this
>> does not hold anymore for today's PCs. * We still have quite a
>> lot of GnuPG 1.4-specific code, and maintenance of Enigmail is
>> more complex with more versions of GnuPG (e.g. password handling
>> / bug 287).
> 
> My knee-jerk reaction is that we're not yet at the point where 1.x
> usage has dropped sufficiently to warrant this change,

There may have been some misunderstanding. The upcoming Enigmail 1.8
(some weeks away) does NOT remove support for gnupg 1.4. This will
happen with 1.9.

1.9 will maybe released in time for Thunderbird 38, which is due by
summer this year.

This is all speculation. We still don't know if there will be code
changes in Thunderbird 38 which make a new Enigmail release necessary.

> but before I cast a "No" vote (for whatever that's worth) I'm
> curious as to how much more complex development efforts are due to
> the 1.x code?

Passphrase handling in Enigmail itself - necessary for gnupg 1.4 - is
a provisional solution and has a hard to catch and ugly bug
(https://sourceforge.net/p/enigmail/bugs/287/)

HTH

Ludwig

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Daniel Kahn Gillmor]

On Wed 2015-02-04 12:13:18 -0500, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:

> We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we should
> think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.
>
> Reasons:
> * GnuPG 2.0 was released in November 2006; it has proven for a long
> time to be stable.
> * While GnuPG 1.4 still makes sense on embedded devices and computers
> with limited resources, this does not hold anymore for today's PCs.
> * We still have quite a lot of GnuPG 1.4-specific code, and
> maintenance of Enigmail is more complex with more versions of GnuPG
> (e.g. password handling / bug 287).
>
>
> My plan is as follows:
> * Enigmail 1.8.x will still support GnuPG 1.4.x. However, if Enigmail
> detects GnuPG 1.4.x, a message will be displayed saying that GnuPG
> 1.4.x is considered deprecated and will no longer be supported in
> future major versions of Enigmail.
>
> * Enigmail 1.9.x will not support GnuPG 1.4.x anymore. We will either
> point users to a web page from where they can download GnuPG 2.x, or
> we will offer to install GnuPG 2.x directly from Enigmail (just like
> the wizard already does it). A decision for which way to go is not yet
> taken. I expect to release Enigmail 1.9 in late Q3 or Q4 2015.

This sounds like a good plan to me.  I'm glad to hear it.

Regards,

--dkg

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Robert J. Hansen]

> Not all Debian/Ubuntu users install Enigmail as a package, now that it
> no longer contains machine-dependent code.

No, but it *is* what we recommend.

If you get your Thunderbird from your distribution (or ports tree, for
the BSDs), then please also get Enigmail from the same place.
Downloading it from the web site is meant for people who have installed
Thunderbird from the Mozilla web site, or for people who don't mind
possibly running into problems with incompatibilities between their
distro-provided Thunderbird and their website-provided Enigmail.

We've had this guidance in place for at least eight years now.  Maybe
someday we'll change it, but we haven't yet.  :)



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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Faramir]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

El 04-02-2015 a las 16:16, Ludwig Hügelschäfer escibió:
...
> You'll need gpg4win, as it brings the required (and fully windows 
> integrated) pinentry.
> 
> gpg4win 2.23 works well on Win7 64 bit.

  I think it's safe to don't install Clawsmail and the outlook tool,
the rest things may be a good idea to install them, just in case.

  Best Regards
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJU0oBAAAoJEMV4f6PvczxACy0IAJsJakxO/T2A2E2eu8ciMdRD
aaU8E91RVa9h7vnRpfIHdW6ky7F56Xk99HWj5GlhaTtr2uMCAT8te3gxlWEb/Kx7
fdE3I0bdYryDsi+1GfDBtxOeFjOzn/cgqrzrrZZLaB04wW2jo8T/HjthTk40rJgg
6EiWlEwU1qJw85ef8JQjmqLBwQhBzE6HUdxvAdBlKARcGSlSTTCsC5n7Ivnvdpj1
xtDtT9cVkw341zV3g6HwDIDOFOCOeDE6MezZ3KqsX7WV/BHaWbY/kiUkOlpSzz1U
8FqdmkuZtL+ItYbfoGdTnDfEKBb2SV0+qH5Wc3cNX2johHUEkMO0kzKK74ShjT0=
=tCT1
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Doug Barton]

On 2/4/15 9:13 AM, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:

We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we should
think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.

Reasons:
* GnuPG 2.0 was released in November 2006; it has proven for a long
time to be stable.
* While GnuPG 1.4 still makes sense on embedded devices and computers
with limited resources, this does not hold anymore for today's PCs.
* We still have quite a lot of GnuPG 1.4-specific code, and
maintenance of Enigmail is more complex with more versions of GnuPG
(e.g. password handling / bug 287).


My knee-jerk reaction is that we're not yet at the point where 1.x usage 
has dropped sufficiently to warrant this change, but before I cast a 
"No" vote (for whatever that's worth) I'm curious as to how much more 
complex development efforts are due to the 1.x code?


Doug

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ian Mann]

Yes, I would not have been able to do it without the help of you folk.

Ian


On 05/02/15 07:18, Doug Barton wrote:
> On 2/4/15 10:53 AM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>>> Well, that does surprise me. I can understand why you'd prefer an
>>> Enigmail wizard to guide you through the upgrade.
>>
>> It's not necessary.  Debian (and by extension Ubuntu) package Enigmail;
>> thus, if you install a new version of Enigmail through the Debian (or
>> Ubuntu) package installation mechanism, it will automagically install
>> GnuPG 2 for you as a necessary dependency.
>
> Not all Debian/Ubuntu users install Enigmail as a package, now that it no 
> longer contains machine-dependent code.
>
>> Or, you could just open a terminal window and type:
>>
>>   sudo apt-get install gnupg2
>
> That will work to get it installed, yes. And now that gnupg can use the 
> socket method for gpg-agent on Unix it's a lot easier to set up than it used 
> to be. Users who want to take advantage of the gpg-agent for ssh purposes 
> still face a pretty steep learning curve, however.
>
> Doug
>
>
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Doug Barton]

On 2/4/15 10:53 AM, Robert J. Hansen wrote:

Well, that does surprise me. I can understand why you'd prefer an
Enigmail wizard to guide you through the upgrade.


It's not necessary.  Debian (and by extension Ubuntu) package Enigmail;
thus, if you install a new version of Enigmail through the Debian (or
Ubuntu) package installation mechanism, it will automagically install
GnuPG 2 for you as a necessary dependency.


Not all Debian/Ubuntu users install Enigmail as a package, now that it 
no longer contains machine-dependent code.



Or, you could just open a terminal window and type:

  sudo apt-get install gnupg2


That will work to get it installed, yes. And now that gnupg can use the 
socket method for gpg-agent on Unix it's a lot easier to set up than it 
used to be. Users who want to take advantage of the gpg-agent for ssh 
purposes still face a pretty steep learning curve, however.


Doug


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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Doug Barton]

On 2/4/15 11:16 AM, Bob Henson wrote:

On 04/02/2015 5:13 pm, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:

We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we should
think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.



Hmm - just tried the GPG4Win installer - it won't allow the installation
of GnuPG without Kleopatra too and Kleopatra is very, very flaky under
Windows 64 bit.


I am not sure where you are getting your information. I have used the 
Gpg4win-Light installer (which does not include Kleopatra) successfully 
on 64-bit Windows 7, and on XP before that, for many years.


Doug


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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Faramir]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

El 04-02-2015 a las 16:08, Bob Henson escibió:
> On 04/02/2015 5:13 pm, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>> We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we
>> should think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.
>> 
> 
> There may be a few problems with Windows users only being able to
> get GnuPG 2.x as part of GPG4Win - that might put many people off
> using it. I'm not use how well it functions on 64 bit Windows
> systems - it

  Now I'm using Win 7 64 bits, couldn't make gpg 1.4.18 work, so I
moved to Gpg4Win 2.2.2 (now 2.2.3), and it works fine, except I'm
still unsure about how to tell it to use pool.sks-keyservers.net,
there is something with hkp and hkps... anyway, Gpg4win 2.2.3 seems to
install very easy, and Enigmail detects and use it like a charm.

  Best Regards

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJU0n3eAAoJEMV4f6PvczxAf1wH/2D6NKKUQWcRsoy9r8rVS1Qc
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LZ9eUL5p1bDnnIWI73LrfXx8AW/obut3cl+DtStrsSL3cB/2V1kvzprUU8H+GesP
QDQOM1SGZ/HlchNwGR1BrZMPlnNgSh2XBSqfnjUKAEwmkCuZPXoiEqR+q+jZOKLh
oRdyHFqa38ghUiim7iezJAeXxpzzQIvD8SNBPUpuZj8MwTQVkzm2qc8OjTDrl6I=
=twZu
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ian Mann]

Ludwig,

That worked after putting in the Path,

Thank you

Ian


On 05/02/15 07:01, Ludwig Hügelschäfer wrote:
> On 04.02.15 20:36, Ian Mann wrote:
> > OK looks like I have GnuPG 2.0.22 on the system now.
>
> > Do I have to tell enigmail to use that now? If so how do I manage
> > that?
>
> It may be sufficient to restart Thunderbird, but I'm not sure.
>
> If not: You first have to know where gpg2 resides. This depends on the
> flavour of the linux system you have installed. Open a command shell
> window and type:
>
> which gpg2
>
> copy the path which is reported into
>
> Enigmail -> Preferences -> "Override with" setting. Make sure the
> checkbox left to it is set.
>
> If everything works, you'll be prompted by "pinentry" for your
> passphrase, not by enigmail itself. The pinentry used depends on your
> Linux flavour.
>
> HTH
>
> Ludwig
>
>
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Samir Nassar]

On Wednesday, February 04, 2015 05:09:24 PM Faramir wrote:
>   If I'm not wrong, gpg 1.4.16 had a security flaw so it's strange
> ubuntu has not upgraded to 1.4.17 or 1.4.18. But that flaw may have
> been too specific to be considered exploitable... it was something
> about denial of service.

Depending on the bug and how patchable it is, some distributions like Debian, 
and so Ubuntu, might apply patches to an existing version instead of pumping 
the version level.

Samir

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Faramir]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

El 04-02-2015 a las 15:07, Alexander Buchner escibió:
> On 04.02.2015 19:00, Bob Williams wrote:
>> I'd be surprised if Ubuntu gives you GnuPG 1.4. What is the
>> output of
>> 
>> gpg --version?
> 
> I have a Ubuntu 14.10 system:
> 
> @@@:~$ gpg --version gpg (GnuPG) 1.4.16
...
  If I'm not wrong, gpg 1.4.16 had a security flaw so it's strange
ubuntu has not upgraded to 1.4.17 or 1.4.18. But that flaw may have
been too specific to be considered exploitable... it was something
about denial of service.

  Best Regards

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJU0nx0AAoJEMV4f6PvczxAV+YH/2VtnBrh1vVAUv2Lg4jgFnSE
AQIw30k/XxHnNcgqlFBthr86iMqwwc5r/cFK+/mo8jUQ9WWPqJO2o5EC42wlZ8lj
zsdz8GGbPsfpDy3jSYxJi5t5LqzDJmjtgEtrOM3aM+sTH1unrTE9aHNHCO7NC4Jx
Tozd7w98BwSdB7eltuENa6n4wcwPBNUq/deYcu1KsReZJmXQORo/vxebRa9AYB9U
rRkW5kDHutYvVtje/ZCfErDjZlv+AlAQMd0jpIWr5KjddfsLEiGfhmM7ULe/fIN4
zemJrhy/XeIrVcxUsXtEnoIXvaOWzbF8O9zaJURd8OxjIy3uN6oJYaWrC42Pkho=
=dVrd
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Faramir]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

El 04-02-2015 a las 14:13, Patrick Brunschwig escibió:
> We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we
> should think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.
...
> 
> Please let me know if this would cause major issues that I'm not
> aware of.

  I would dislike that decision, but since I moved from XP to Win 7 64
bits I have been unable to make GnuPG 1.4.18 to work (I had to switch
to GPG4Win), I guess it won't have any impact to me.

  Best Regards
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJU0nu4AAoJEMV4f6PvczxAtjMH/A4MWdsizZAXSyLhcehBIVcL
KG+dQoOIO5He2Rznc0E42GUozFRPeM9yqx/MTCOHz9w6bibsdYR8IJDsz94Bfz0f
SM50wCjAABraG1++lsLVbaQmJI7DtwaOPqSG0lyu7UKaU8BVczZ2fsIlZSHjz1r4
YGO4vIC5iEp+4UWQHf73zVeyN+5K0Qc/FhrMcvjx+jmiG6Vdyqv9nLcWIwfbt38w
qlpO+gLqRFnpUM1DvoXL9RifzN2MSebtEBP9y0gnENOguYlzrHEkOUDBJCipczS2
3d6LoX5o940W27vL6AX3EsvI6BarUd87IM30exSiSKHO6TSHR0mzAIthUBQOJ3E=
=fbmW
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ludwig Hügelschäfer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 04.02.15 20:36, Ian Mann wrote:
> OK looks like I have GnuPG 2.0.22 on the system now.
> 
> Do I have to tell enigmail to use that now? If so how do I manage
> that?

It may be sufficient to restart Thunderbird, but I'm not sure.

If not: You first have to know where gpg2 resides. This depends on the
flavour of the linux system you have installed. Open a command shell
window and type:

which gpg2

copy the path which is reported into

Enigmail -> Preferences -> "Override with" setting. Make sure the
checkbox left to it is set.

If everything works, you'll be prompted by "pinentry" for your
passphrase, not by enigmail itself. The pinentry used depends on your
Linux flavour.

HTH

Ludwig

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2

iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJU0nq0AAoJEDrb+m0Aoeb+OK4QAK8FvjwH7KSmKR6sf0wOociy
b+vnmZ2LxtYNOIgUmUQ9cPX63K73GW2lt2GvR5xlLrGpiCRK5y34fbY6CsimxVBK
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BjHvCIia7v2lB9pdV77OyPk7y+aUTCQ6yQgWC2pteao+LcdSIxCCdKuOC7AxX2OE
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sCF2+/46tmXS8rq3EwPLsLJTWBC++tHcucmiBLasdQ9/KC4xJHhSzmVFxU521RFP
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ASC8xA42vABZJ30pJbMtZuO3XXLP2zMtsl7tUgJ2cADEEQrPWi+5UbPwxVwd1BAM
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sHCEBXPT7hy4BFmKgRT5
=FnKj
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Bob Henson]

On 04/02/2015 7:27 pm, Samir Nassar wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 04, 2015 07:16:26 PM Bob Henson wrote:
> > Hmm - just tried the GPG4Win installer - it won't allow the installation
> > of GnuPG without Kleopatra too and Kleopatra is very, very flaky under
> > Windows 64 bit. I think before you drop support of 1.4 you should wait
> > until there is a standalone "official" version GnuPG 2.0 for Windows.
>
> Did you try the Vanilla installer?
> http://files.gpg4win.org/gpg4win-vanilla-2.2.3.exe This install gnupg
> only.
>
> Samir
>
>

Hmm. I just gave it a try and it seems to be fine - however, I sent
myself a test message and when I had a look at the details it said :-

Version: GnuPG v1

All I did was changed Enigmail to use gpg2.exe instead of gpg.exe - maybe I 
need to do more than just that to get it to use v2

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Bob Henson]

On 04/02/2015 7:27 pm, Samir Nassar wrote:
> 
> On Wednesday, February 04, 2015 07:16:26 PM Bob Henson wrote:
> 
> Hmm - just tried the GPG4Win installer - it won't allow the installation
> of GnuPG without Kleopatra too and Kleopatra is very, very flaky under
> Windows 64 bit. I think before you drop support of 1.4 you should wait
> until there is a standalone "official" version GnuPG 2.0 for Windows.
> 
>
> Did you try the Vanilla installer?
http://files.gpg4win.org/gpg4win-vanilla-2.2.3.exe This install gnupg only.
>

I didn't know about that - I'll give it a try.

Regards,

Bob


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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ian Mann]

OK looks like I have GnuPG 2.0.22 on the system now.

Do I have to tell enigmail to use that now? If so how do I manage that?

Ian


gpg2 --version
gpg (GnuPG) 2.0.22
libgcrypt 1.5.3
Copyright (C) 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later 
This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it.
There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.

Home: ~/.gnupg
Supported algorithms:
Pubkey: RSA, ELG, DSA, ?, ?
Cypher: IDEA, 3DES, CAST5, BLOWFISH, AES, AES192, AES256, TWOFISH,
CAMELLIA128, CAMELLIA192, CAMELLIA256
Hash: MD5, SHA1, RIPEMD160, SHA256, SHA384, SHA512, SHA224
Compression: Uncompressed, ZIP, ZLIB, BZIP2
ian@ian-GA-970A-D3:~$

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Samir Nassar]

On Wednesday, February 04, 2015 07:16:26 PM Bob Henson wrote:
> Hmm - just tried the GPG4Win installer - it won't allow the installation
> of GnuPG without Kleopatra too and Kleopatra is very, very flaky under
> Windows 64 bit. I think before you drop support of 1.4 you should wait
> until there is a standalone "official" version GnuPG 2.0 for Windows.

Did you try the Vanilla installer? 
http://files.gpg4win.org/gpg4win-vanilla-2.2.3.exe This install gnupg only.

Samir


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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Andreas Hirsch]

Bob Henson schrieb am 2015-02-04 um 20:16:
> On 04/02/2015 5:13 pm, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>> We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we should
>> think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.
>>
>>
> Hmm - just tried the GPG4Win installer - it won't allow the installation
> of GnuPG without Kleopatra too and Kleopatra is very, very flaky under
> Windows 64 bit. I think before you drop support of 1.4 you should wait
> until there is a standalone "official" version GnuPG 2.0 for Windows.

I agree!

Andreas

-- 
Andreas Hirsch
Klarweinstr. 5a
82467 Garmisch-Partenkirchen
++49 8821 947477
GPG PublicKey
https://mediencenter.t-online.de/auth/guest/shareToken/D96B3BA4667F2FE5101A2DEE73E8DC40E8CAE888
Fingerprint 81D6 6C24 3AA8 E250 E034 CAF5 A1E8 D5E8 806C 3CB8

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ludwig Hügelschäfer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 04.02.15 20:08, Bob Henson wrote:
> On 04/02/2015 5:13 pm, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
>> We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we
>> should think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.
>> 
> 
> There may be a few problems with Windows users only being able to
> get GnuPG 2.x as part of GPG4Win - that might put many people off
> using it. I'm not use how well it functions on 64 bit Windows
> systems - it certainly failed here when I tried it some time back -
> but maybe that was probably GPG4Win not GnuPG - it was very flaky.
> I can't remember what the problem was so I'll have a go at
> installing just GnuPG and see what happens - maybe all is OK now.

You'll need gpg4win, as it brings the required (and fully windows
integrated) pinentry.

gpg4win 2.23 works well on Win7 64 bit.

Ludwig

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Bob Henson]

On 04/02/2015 5:13 pm, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
> We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we should
> think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.
> 
> 
Hmm - just tried the GPG4Win installer - it won't allow the installation
of GnuPG without Kleopatra too and Kleopatra is very, very flaky under
Windows 64 bit. I think before you drop support of 1.4 you should wait
until there is a standalone "official" version GnuPG 2.0 for Windows.

Regards,

Bob


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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Bob Henson]

On 04/02/2015 5:13 pm, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
> We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we should
> think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.
> 

There may be a few problems with Windows users only being able to get
GnuPG 2.x as part of GPG4Win - that might put many people off using it.
I'm not use how well it functions on 64 bit Windows systems - it
certainly failed here when I tried it some time back - but maybe that
was probably GPG4Win not GnuPG - it was very flaky. I can't remember
what the problem was so I'll have a go at installing just GnuPG and see
what happens - maybe all is OK now.

Regards,

Bob


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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Robert J. Hansen]

> Do I have to uninstall 1.4?

Nope.  They coexist beautifully.



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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ludwig Hügelschäfer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 04.02.15 20:02, Andreas Hirsch wrote:

> If I remember correctly, there comes a new instance of handling
> the passthrase instead of Enigmail and so my passthrase was not
> recognized.

Did your passphrase contain special characters like accent or umlauts?
If yes, please change it with 1.4 and then you can use it with 2.0.x :-)

Ludwig

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ludwig Hügelschäfer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 04.02.15 20:00, Ian Mann wrote:
> Do I have to uninstall 1.4?

No. 2.0.x can peacefully coexist with a 1.4.x installation.

Ludwig

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Andreas Hirsch]

Ludwig Hügelschäfer schrieb am 2015-02-04 um 19:58:
> On 04.02.15 19:53, Andreas Hirsch wrote:
> 
>> In the past, I tried twice to switch to GnuPG 2.x (in case of
>> setting up a new pc) and wasn't able to use my existing private key
>> anymore.
> 
> This surprises me. GnuPG 2.x understands and keeps the same formats of
> files and keys/keyrings. It can even peacefully coexist with a 1.4.x
> installation. BTDT.

If I remember correctly, there comes a new instance of handling the
passthrase instead of Enigmail and so my passthrase was not recognized.

Andreas

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Bob Williams]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 04/02/15 18:53, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> Well, that does surprise me. I can understand why you'd prefer
>> an Enigmail wizard to guide you through the upgrade.
> 
> It's not necessary.  Debian (and by extension Ubuntu) package
> Enigmail; thus, if you install a new version of Enigmail through
> the Debian (or Ubuntu) package installation mechanism, it will
> automagically install GnuPG 2 for you as a necessary dependency.
> 
> Or, you could just open a terminal window and type:
> 
> sudo apt-get install gnupg2
> 
> Either way works fine.
> 

Thank you. I was surprised because the distribution I use, openSUSE,
has shipped GnuPG version 2 for some time.

:~> gpg --version
gpg (GnuPG) 2.0.26
libgcrypt 1.6.1

Bob
- -- 
Bob Williams
System:  Linux 3.16.7-7-desktop
Distro:  openSUSE 13.2 (x86_64) with KDE Development Platform: 4.14.3
Uptime:  06:00am up 7:55, 3 users, load average: 0.16, 0.05, 0.06
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ludwig Hügelschäfer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 04.02.15 19:58, Ludwig Hügelschäfer wrote:

> This surprises me. GnuPG 2.x understands and keeps the same formats
> of files and keys/keyrings.

Correction: 2.0.x

2.1.x is another story...

Ludwig
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ian Mann]

Do I have to uninstall 1.4?

On 05/02/15 05:53, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> Well, that does surprise me. I can understand why you'd prefer an
>> Enigmail wizard to guide you through the upgrade.
> It's not necessary.  Debian (and by extension Ubuntu) package Enigmail;
> thus, if you install a new version of Enigmail through the Debian (or
> Ubuntu) package installation mechanism, it will automagically install
> GnuPG 2 for you as a necessary dependency.
>
> Or, you could just open a terminal window and type:
>
>  sudo apt-get install gnupg2
>
> Either way works fine.
>
>
>
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ludwig Hügelschäfer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 04.02.15 19:53, Andreas Hirsch wrote:

> In the past, I tried twice to switch to GnuPG 2.x (in case of
> setting up a new pc) and wasn't able to use my existing private key
> anymore.

This surprises me. GnuPG 2.x understands and keeps the same formats of
files and keys/keyrings. It can even peacefully coexist with a 1.4.x
installation. BTDT.

Ludwig

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Version: GnuPG v2

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ian Mann]

Hmm, I might give it ago. Thanks Robert.

Ian

On 05/02/15 05:53, Robert J. Hansen wrote:
>> Well, that does surprise me. I can understand why you'd prefer an
>> Enigmail wizard to guide you through the upgrade.
> It's not necessary.  Debian (and by extension Ubuntu) package Enigmail;
> thus, if you install a new version of Enigmail through the Debian (or
> Ubuntu) package installation mechanism, it will automagically install
> GnuPG 2 for you as a necessary dependency.
>
> Or, you could just open a terminal window and type:
>
>  sudo apt-get install gnupg2
>
> Either way works fine.
>
>
>
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Andreas Hirsch]

Hi Patrick,

Patrick Brunschwig schrieb am 2015-02-04 um 18:13:

> Please let me know if this would cause major issues that I'm not aware of.

In the past, I tried twice to switch to GnuPG 2.x (in case of setting up
a new pc) and wasn't able to use my existing private key anymore.

Andreas

-- 
Andreas Hirsch
Klarweinstr. 5a
82467 Garmisch-Partenkirchen
++49 8821 947477
GPG PublicKey
https://mediencenter.t-online.de/auth/guest/shareToken/D96B3BA4667F2FE5101A2DEE73E8DC40E8CAE888
Fingerprint 81D6 6C24 3AA8 E250 E034 CAF5 A1E8 D5E8 806C 3CB8

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Robert J. Hansen]

> Well, that does surprise me. I can understand why you'd prefer an
> Enigmail wizard to guide you through the upgrade.

It's not necessary.  Debian (and by extension Ubuntu) package Enigmail;
thus, if you install a new version of Enigmail through the Debian (or
Ubuntu) package installation mechanism, it will automagically install
GnuPG 2 for you as a necessary dependency.

Or, you could just open a terminal window and type:

 sudo apt-get install gnupg2

Either way works fine.



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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ian Mann]

Thanks for that information Lars,

Ian

On 05/02/15 05:46, Lars Noodén wrote:
> On 04.02.2015 20:07, Alexander Buchner wrote:
>> On 04.02.2015 19:00, Bob Williams wrote:
>>> I'd be surprised if Ubuntu gives you GnuPG 1.4. What is the output of
>>>
>>> gpg --version?
>> I have a Ubuntu 14.10 system:
>>
>> @@@:~$ gpg --version
>> gpg (GnuPG) 1.4.16
>> ...
> Ubuntu 14.10 will expire soon anyway.  The non-LTS release now have only
> a 9-month life cycle.  Coming up, 15.04 will have GnuPG version 1.4.18,
> which is still 1.4.x
>
> The current LTS desktops, 12.04 and 14.04, use 1.4.11 and 1.4.16. They
> will be around until 2017 and 2019.  A search of backports for 14.04 LTS
> shows nothing in regards to GnuPG.
>
> Regards,
> /Lars
>
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Lars Noodén]

On 04.02.2015 20:07, Alexander Buchner wrote:
> On 04.02.2015 19:00, Bob Williams wrote:
>> I'd be surprised if Ubuntu gives you GnuPG 1.4. What is the output of
>>
>> gpg --version?
> 
> I have a Ubuntu 14.10 system:
> 
> @@@:~$ gpg --version
> gpg (GnuPG) 1.4.16
>...

Ubuntu 14.10 will expire soon anyway.  The non-LTS release now have only
a 9-month life cycle.  Coming up, 15.04 will have GnuPG version 1.4.18,
which is still 1.4.x

The current LTS desktops, 12.04 and 14.04, use 1.4.11 and 1.4.16. They
will be around until 2017 and 2019.  A search of backports for 14.04 LTS
shows nothing in regards to GnuPG.

Regards,
/Lars

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ian Mann]

Yes, I don't know much about tinkering with the system. I just want to use the 
applications.

For me to upgrade GnuPG to 2.x by myself would be stressful, I would be sure to 
stuff it up Bob.

On 05/02/15 05:26, Bob Williams wrote:
> On 04/02/15 18:18, Ian Mann wrote:
> > On 05/02/15 05:00, Bob Williams wrote:
> >> On 04/02/15 17:43, Ian Mann wrote:
> >>> I hope it is directly from Enigmail as I don't feel confident
> >>> to install GnuPG 2.x it separately on Ubuntu.
> >>
> >>> Ian
> >>
> >> I'd be surprised if Ubuntu gives you GnuPG 1.4. What is the
> >> output of
> >>
> >> gpg --version?
> >>
> >>
> > gpg --version gpg (GnuPG) 1.4.16
>
>
> Well, that does surprise me. I can understand why you'd prefer an
> Enigmail wizard to guide you through the upgrade.
>
> Bob
>
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Bob Williams]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 04/02/15 18:18, Ian Mann wrote:
> On 05/02/15 05:00, Bob Williams wrote:
>> On 04/02/15 17:43, Ian Mann wrote:
>>> I hope it is directly from Enigmail as I don't feel confident
>>> to install GnuPG 2.x it separately on Ubuntu.
>> 
>>> Ian
>> 
>> I'd be surprised if Ubuntu gives you GnuPG 1.4. What is the
>> output of
>> 
>> gpg --version?
>> 
>> 
> gpg --version gpg (GnuPG) 1.4.16


Well, that does surprise me. I can understand why you'd prefer an
Enigmail wizard to guide you through the upgrade.

Bob
- -- 
Bob Williams
System:  Linux 3.16.7-7-desktop
Distro:  openSUSE 13.2 (x86_64) with KDE Development Platform: 4.14.3
Uptime:  06:00am up 7:55, 3 users, load average: 0.16, 0.05, 0.06
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2

iEYEARECAAYFAlTSZFUACgkQ0Sr7eZJrmU6LswCggS+L3VrkCAm6RAaMrOJzN1eY
wsgAniTtndTk1kL4ZhM0xq+wx372WIjv
=KPgC
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ian Mann]

gpg --version
gpg (GnuPG) 1.4.16
Copyright (C) 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later 
This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it.
There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.

Home: ~/.gnupg
Supported algorithms:
Pubkey: RSA, RSA-E, RSA-S, ELG-E, DSA
Cypher: IDEA, 3DES, CAST5, BLOWFISH, AES, AES192, AES256, TWOFISH,
CAMELLIA128, CAMELLIA192, CAMELLIA256
Hash: MD5, SHA1, RIPEMD160, SHA256, SHA384, SHA512, SHA224
Compression: Uncompressed, ZIP, ZLIB, BZIP2


On 05/02/15 05:00, Bob Williams wrote:
> On 04/02/15 17:43, Ian Mann wrote:
> > I hope it is directly from Enigmail as I don't feel confident to
> > install GnuPG 2.x it separately on Ubuntu.
>
> > Ian
>
> I'd be surprised if Ubuntu gives you GnuPG 1.4. What is the output of
>
> gpg --version?
>
>
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ian Mann]

bin_uRbgS43DJ.bin
Description: PGP/MIME version identification


encrypted.asc
Description: OpenPGP encrypted message
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Alexander Buchner]

On 04.02.2015 19:00, Bob Williams wrote:
> I'd be surprised if Ubuntu gives you GnuPG 1.4. What is the output of
> 
> gpg --version?

I have a Ubuntu 14.10 system:

@@@:~$ gpg --version
gpg (GnuPG) 1.4.16
Copyright (C) 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later

This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it.
There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.

Home: ~/.gnupg
Supported algorithms:
Pubkey: RSA, RSA-E, RSA-S, ELG-E, DSA
Cipher: IDEA, 3DES, CAST5, BLOWFISH, AES, AES192, AES256, TWOFISH,
CAMELLIA128, CAMELLIA192, CAMELLIA256
Hash: MD5, SHA1, RIPEMD160, SHA256, SHA384, SHA512,



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Bob Williams]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 04/02/15 17:43, Ian Mann wrote:
> I hope it is directly from Enigmail as I don't feel confident to
> install GnuPG 2.x it separately on Ubuntu.
> 
> Ian

I'd be surprised if Ubuntu gives you GnuPG 1.4. What is the output of

gpg --version?

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Bob Williams
System:  Linux 3.16.7-7-desktop
Distro:  openSUSE 13.2 (x86_64) with KDE Development Platform: 4.14.3
Uptime:  06:00am up 7:55, 3 users, load average: 0.16, 0.05, 0.06
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2

iEYEARECAAYFAlTSXkUACgkQ0Sr7eZJrmU5GdQCdEjIgcl6ywcelBOuqbVZAoQAB
MwwAnijTi06O9f0sMaaznMSZ3u0aFO1a
=pg7t
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Enigmail] Medium Term Plan for Dropping GnuPG 1.4.x Support

[Ian Mann]

I hope it is directly from Enigmail as I don't feel confident to install GnuPG 
2.x it separately on Ubuntu.

Ian

On 05/02/15 04:13, Patrick Brunschwig wrote:
> We recently discussed in (a part of) the Enigmail team that we should
> think about giving up support for GnuPG 1.4.x.
>
> Reasons:
> * GnuPG 2.0 was released in November 2006; it has proven for a long
> time to be stable.
> * While GnuPG 1.4 still makes sense on embedded devices and computers
> with limited resources, this does not hold anymore for today's PCs.
> * We still have quite a lot of GnuPG 1.4-specific code, and
> maintenance of Enigmail is more complex with more versions of GnuPG
> (e.g. password handling / bug 287).
>
>
> My plan is as follows:
> * Enigmail 1.8.x will still support GnuPG 1.4.x. However, if Enigmail
> detects GnuPG 1.4.x, a message will be displayed saying that GnuPG
> 1.4.x is considered deprecated and will no longer be supported in
> future major versions of Enigmail.
>
> * Enigmail 1.9.x will not support GnuPG 1.4.x anymore. We will either
> point users to a web page from where they can download GnuPG 2.x, or
> we will offer to install GnuPG 2.x directly from Enigmail (just like
> the wizard already does it). A decision for which way to go is not yet
> taken. I expect to release Enigmail 1.9 in late Q3 or Q4 2015.
>
> Please let me know if this would cause major issues that I'm not aware of.
>
> -Patrick
>
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