Re: [Eug-lug]Re: TiVo series 2

[Seth Cohn]

--- Ben Barrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey, check out some cool linux-based software:
> http://mythtv.org/
> like they're using RedHat 8 as the base system, so I'll appologize
> right
> away: sorry, red-haters...  

There are debian packages for it I'm planning on installing this at
some point, sheerly for the coolness factor (yet another neat thing on
my tv)



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Re: [Eug-lug]Re: TiVo series 2

[Seth Cohn]

--- Bob Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But the biggest cost is that to justify either box's existence, you
> have to watch a lot of TV.  That wastes many hours of your life,
> kills off your critical thinking ability, and entices you to go out
> and spend even more money on the products you've seen advertised.

Some of the best hours of my life...
My critical thinking skills are still good...
I skip thru the ads thanks to Tivo...
so I watch less ads, more content...
and my critical thinking skills are still good...
oh, and what's more... my critical thinking skills are still good...

An avid TiVo junkie...

P.S.  And my critical thinking skills are still good!


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Re: [Eug-lug]Signed Debian packages

[Seth Cohn]

--- Bob Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I keep getting this feeling that if I'd just sit down and devote five
> years of my life to reading every scrap of Debian information on the
> web, I'd stop feeling completely lost in this distro...

HEhehehe, as compared to which distro?  Redhat?

> > Every user of testing knows that he must read
> > debian-security-announce and if needed install fixes from unstable
> > since it can take an arbitrary amount of time until security fixes
> > from unstable enter testing (most likely none of fixes from the
> last
> > 70 security advisories is in testing).

Joseph and I were just talking about this yesterday.
Stuff only makes testing once's it's hit a stability of a few weeks.
So testing is the least secure because of that.  Unstable is second,
because it needs to be compiled for many architechtures.
Stable is usually good, and adding security.debian.org's stable updates
often is the answer, though it won't always work for all packages if
you run testing.

> That is demonstrably a false statement, since I was a counterexample
> until last week.  I didn't even know there was a
> debian-security-announce mailing list.  (Since then, I've subscribed
> to all the debian-*-announce lists.  Maybe it will help.)

I used to subscribe to all of the mailing lists, but I tried to get a
life.  Not that it helped.

> But the thing is, I really want an OS that lets me use the computer
> to do neat stuff, not an OS that lets me spend every second of spare
> time tracking down obscure but necessary system administration
bother,
> just to keep my boxes up to date and secure.

Then install stable.  If you choose cutting edge (or near cutting edge)
over security & stability, of course it takes a bit more 'bother'.

Good.  Fast.  Cheap.  Pick 2.
(Debian is Free, so you get Cheap automatically so Pick just 1)


Seth


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Re: [Eug-lug]Hardware Diag software

[Seth Cohn]

http://www.pc-doctor.com/index.htm

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2001/5/prweb24980.php

Neither currently released.


--- Roger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So, is there any Linux based hardware diagnostic tools out there?
> 
> 
> 
> Roger
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Re: [Eug-lug]APC UPS recall

[Seth Cohn]

It's Oracle's fault, from the press release:

Safe Harbor Provision 
  This press release contains forward-looking statements as that
term is defined in the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of
1995. All statements in this press release that do not describe
historical facts, such as statements concerning the Company's future
plans or prospects and those contained in the "Business Outlook"
section of the press release, are forward-looking statements. All
forward-looking statements are not guarantees and are subject to risks
and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ from those
projected. The factors that could cause actual results to differ
materially include the following: costs incurred by the Company for the
product recall are greater than or less than currently anticipated;
actual audited fourth quarter 2002 results may differ from those
currently anticipated; impact on order management and fulfillment,
financial reporting and supply chain management processes as a result
of the Company's reliance on a variety of computer systems, including
_Oracle 11i_ which was implemented in the first quarter 2001; the
impact on demand, component availability and pricing, and logistics,
and the disruption of Asian manufacturing operations that result from
labor disputes, war, acts of terrorism or political instability; ramp
up, expansion and rationalization of global manufacturing capacity; the
discovery of a latent defect in any of the Company's products; the
Company's ability to effectively align operating expenses and
production capacity with the current demand environment; general
worldwide economic conditions, and, in particular, the possibility that
the PC and related markets decline more dramatically than currently
anticipated; growth rates in the power protection industry and related
industries, including but not limited to the PC, server, networking,
telecommunications and enterprise hardware industries; competitive
factors and pricing pressures; product mix changes and the potential
negative impact on gross margins from such changes; changes in the
seasonality of demand patterns; inventory risks due to shifts in market
demand; component constraints, shortages and quality; risk of
nonpayment of accounts receivable; the uncertainty of the litigation
process including risk of an unexpected, unfavorable result of current
or future litigation; and the risks described from time to time in the
Company's filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. The
Company cautions readers not to place undue reliance on any such
forward-looking statements, which speak only as of the date they are
made. The Company disclaims any obligation to publicly update or revise
any such statements to reflect any change in Company expectations or in
events, conditions, or circumstances on which any such statements may
be based, or that may affect the likelihood that actual results will
differ from those set forth in the forward-looking statements

Talk about a disclaimer.  "No, really, it's Oracle's fault!!"

Seth


--- Bob Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> APC is recalling some of their UPSes.  If you use an APC UPS,
> check the press release.
> 
>   http://www.apcc.com/rely/pressrel.cfm
> 
> -- 
> Bob Miller  K
> kbobsoft software consulting
> http://kbobsoft.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ___
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Re: [Eug-lug]First January Presentation

[Seth Cohn]

I think it's advanced but I'll be focusing on the basics of regular
expressions, not advanced topics OF regular expressions.

In other words:  You will walk away from this knowing about what regexes are,
and how to use them... how you use them is more advanced

Seth

--- Bob Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Cory Petkovsek wrote:
> 
> > Bob, will this be on the newbie track or advanced track?  Certainly it
> > could be in either, however we would then have a slot to fill in the
> > other.
> 
> Good question.  Seth is probably the only person who knows at this point.
> 
> -- 
> Bob Miller  K
> kbobsoft software consulting
> http://kbobsoft.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ___
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Re: [Eug-lug]ViewTouch

[Seth Cohn]

> On Fri, 27 Dec 2002, Bob Miller wrote:
> 
> > Anybody know anybody from ViewTouch?  They're a Eugene-based company
> > making Linux POS systems.  (I'm probably the last person to know.)

That's Gene Mosher's company.  Rob Hudson used to work for them.

Gene's a nice guy.



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Re: [Eug-lug]Spirited Away

[Seth Cohn]

I'm certainly up for it It _should_ be playing this Friday/weekend, but
Bijou hasn't confirmed yet.

I know I'm planning on going Sunday, for sure... but heck, I'll go see it a few
times :)  I like Miyazaki a _lot_.  

Seth


--- Joseph Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't know when exactly I'm planning to go yet, but I know that I am
> planning to go see Spirited Away at The Bijou sometime in the near future.
> 
> If you have ever seen Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind or Princess
> Mononoke, you have some idea of Miyazaki's work.  (He's got more where
> they came from, but these are probably his most famous works..)  In that
> case you probably don't need much introduction to know that this will be
> a good film by _any_ standard, whether you're especially into anime or
> not.
> 
> For the rest, Spirited Away has a story  somewhat similar to the premise
> of Alice in Wonderland..  Except that this is Miyazaki's film we're
> talking about here, so therefore things are naturally not quite so simple
> as mad hatters and decks of cards..
> 
> 
> Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone else was interested in tagging
> along, probably Friday or this weekend..  =)
> 
> -- 
> Joseph Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  Crazy in the coconut
>  
>  If I start writing essays about Free Software for slashdot,
>please shoot me.
> 
> 

> ATTACHMENT part 2 application/pgp-signature 



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[Eug-lug]Yahoo thinks PHP doesn't suck!

[Seth Cohn]

http://public.yahoo.com/~radwin/talks/yahoo-phpcon2002.htm

those of you who read slashdot might have seen this... but some of us don't
read slashdot every day anymore. (No, I won't go so far as to admit to having a
real job. :)

Seth

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Re: [Eug-lug]Internet Access..

[Seth Cohn]

--- Linux Rocks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ive considered getting a cricket phone, but I dont think I could hook up
> the computers to it (and would probably be really really slow...) anyone
> investigated cricket cell phones for internet access?

No data on that network.  Good luck in getting a modem to work.

Cricket is nice for what it is: cheap all you can eat _local_ phone service.
I made email paging work for me, so I'm happy with the $40 a month plan,
including the 500 long distance minutes.

Seth


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RE: [Eug-lug]Why is OpenOffice.org not part of Debian?

[Seth Cohn]

--- Dexter Graphic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Your use of the term "politics" here makes it sound like you believe that
> Debian's software inclusion policies are arbitrary and senseless.

No, not senseless or arbitrary, but frustrating for sure.  Lots of good
packages fail certain tests and due to the unique nature of Debian, often
people don't follow up in a timely manner... I really think the below rejection
was a quibble... it should have passed muster.

? From my
> reading of the text below (which I do not fully understand) it seems that
> there is a problem with OpenOffice.org not providing language-packages.

> > Chris uploaded OpenOffice.org to debian in the last weeks, but it was
> rejected,
> > because, the Debian OpenOffice.org Team should provide source-packages of
> the
> > language-packages of OpenOffice.org. But this is not possible, because the
> > language-packages are build at buildtime from the same source as
> > OpenOffice.org. Splitting up the sourcepackage is not possible.

In other words:  The main Debian maintainer of the archives rejected added the
packages because the _source_ package (which most people don't use) wasn't
split into pieces (ie languages) and the binaries of the languages forced
people to download the entire source.  In others, this WAS purely politics,
since it's open source and all of the code is _there_, but wasn't packaged as
cleanly as the archivist felt it should have been.



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Re: [Eug-lug]Why is OpenOffice.org not part of Debian?

[Seth Cohn]

Debian politics mostly.  See below.

http://www.linux-debian.de/openoffice/#news

2002-09-29
Ok .. after silent work, we have some news.
First of all, Gerhard Tonn builded a package for OpenOffice.org on S390, so we
have a third architecture with running OpenOffice.org on debian. You can find
the packages at http://people.debian.org/~gt/openoffice.org. Check them, if you
can (I know, everyone have one :) ) and report bugs to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The debian PowerPC port of debian has a bug in the dependencies. If you
deinstall gcc-3.1.1 from your debian installation completely, including
libstdc++4, openoffice.org is to be removed then, too. This a consequense of
the mozilla binaries for the PowerPC OpenOffice.org, which are builded with
gcc-3.1.1. Building Mozilla with gcc-3.2.1, Jan got a linker error, but Jan
found some patches to solve that, so he will build Mozilla and OpenOffice.org
again to get rid of the libstdc++4 dependency.
Chris, Rene and Jan are discussion whether it should be clever to use the
internal libraries of the OpenOffice.org source or not. Chris intention is to
get OpenOffice.org into debian faster and wait for the gcc-transition to use
the system libs of debian. Jan's opinion is to use debian libs as they can, but
it will take time and OpenOffice.org may into after the gcc-transition.
Chris uploaded OpenOffice.org to debian in the last weeks, but it was rejected,
because, the Debian OpenOffice.org Team should provide source-packages of the
language-packages of OpenOffice.org. But this is not possible, because the
language-packages are build at buildtime from the same source as
OpenOffice.org. Splitting up the sourcepackage is not possible.
Packages for debian-woody are available as TESTING packages. These packages are
running under debian-woody and sarge. Just, testing is used as debian use it
;). But it is only available for I386. Jan is working for PowerPC, but this is
not as easy, because, we have to use gcc-3.2 for PowerPC. So he has to backport
gcc/binutils/glibc for woody/sarge. Check out the Mirrors-Page. 

2002-08-20
It is done. Chris is preparing the upload of OpenOffice.org packages to
debian-unstable. We are now building OpenOffice.org with gcc-3.2 and the patch
026 fixes the problem, I pointed out on 2002-08-10. OpenOffice.org is now
available for I386 and Jan builded OpenOffice.org for PPC already, but will
upload it tomorrow. 
Chris mailed today, that we have a few new help packages available in other
langs as en_EN. You can find them on our mirrors in some tome (after sync) :)
Available are:
openoffice.org-help-de_0.20020222-1_all.deb
openoffice.org-help-es_0.20020222-1_all.deb
openoffice.org-help-fr_0.20020222-1_all.deb
openoffice.org-help-it_0.20020222-1_all.deb
openoffice.org-help-sv_0.20020222-1_all.deb

and can be grapped from:
http://sf1.mirror.openoffice.org/miscellaneous/helpcontent 

--- Bob Crandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Because.
> 
> Bob Miller ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote*:
> >
> >Why is OpenOffice.org not included in the Debian distributions?
> >It's available from http://www.linux-debian.de/openoffice/,
> >but not on the regular Debian mirrors.
> >
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >http://mailman.efn.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/eug-lug
> >
> --
> Bob Crandell
> Assured Computing
> When you need to be sure.
> Voice 541-689-9159
> FAX   240-371-7237
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.assuredcomp.com
> Eugene, Or. 97402
> 
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Re: [Eug-lug]Euglug clinic TODAY - Video stuff

[Seth Cohn]

I am grabbing some webcam stuff now, and intend to get Effectv running on it.
Other webcamming will be considered as well.

Seth

> On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, Larry Price wrote:
> 
> > start 6:30pm
> > Gather around conference table
> > 7:00 futz with ancient hp hub so we can all plug for ethernet
> > 7:15 Apache configuration demonstration
> > 8:03 laugh when  drops soda on their kbd
> > 8:35 first mention of /.
> > 8:53 acceptance of Tux
> > 
> > post meeting bofh lart-o-matic as you stumble over the cruft in the street
> > out front 
> ...etc...
> 
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[Eug-lug]my 2 cents on PHP...

[Seth Cohn]

I can take a piece of php code, with little to no documentation beyond the code
itself, and see quickly what it does, change it to suit, and test it.

I can't do that with perl, as it's far harder to test changes, and it's not
nearly as readable in most cases.

Yes, while it's doable in Python and other languages such as Java or C, the
ease of code/change/test isn't quite as 'there'

In other words:  The Apache/PHP/MySQL triumvirate came out for a reason: it
works.  Yes, Apache was trhe easy pick for web server.  Yes, MYSQL might not be
the best SQL but it's 'good enough', and yes, PHP filled a niche... and grew to
fill it.  Nothing else did, and likely won't.  I like PHP... far more than more
other code, FOR HTML.  It's not meant to be the best language for all purposes,
but for HTML inline, it works really well.

Real coders tend not to like PHP.  That's fine.  PHP fits the vast majority of
_users_, who aren't real coders.  I can code.  I don't like coding though.  I'm
the sort who likes to take existing code and bend it to suit me.  In other
words, I'm a patcher.  PHP is great for patchers.





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Re: [Eug-lug]HTML Transfer

[Seth Cohn]

--- Larry Price <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> and if the details are too complex you can just order your minions to take
> care of it for you, damn, I gotta get me some minions..

Minions are overrated.

> > > why d'you think it takes it 30 seconds to authenticate a login
> > > when it's pretty much the only thing running on a 900Mhz 512MB box?
> > 
> > Doesn't take that long... sorry.
> "Hang on tight, logging you in!"

Have you bothered to look at the code?  I mean, it's a simple refresh tag.  You
want it shorter, change it.  It's not taking that long to validate users.  If
you insist on showing that you don't know how to read php, fine... but it's
right there in the code.

META HTTP-EQUIV=Refresh CONTENT="2; URL=/"

Found in NS-User/tools.php

> note: my feelings are probably affected by the fact that it's been forced
> on me in a context where it's being used to hang a bunch of bells and
> whistles on a project whose architecture is still in flux and whose
> primary functions are still not not worked out, mostly because the project
> team is a mess because one members ideas are immune to criticism...

If you want to be unprofessional, you go for it.  It only reflects on you at
this point.  Whining about how something was "forced" on you (other options
were discussed, and your solution wasn't picked for valid reasons even you
diagree with it), and taking pot shots at others, co-workers at all, is not
something that comes across in your favor for perceptions.

You'll notice, I'm not posting from my efn account, so consider this to be Seth
in his off-hours.



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Re: [Eug-lug]HTML Transfer

[Seth Cohn]

I've used Postnuke for more than a year now... and I have to say that it works.
It's not the prettiest, but understanding the problems in development, I have
seen it get better and better... and I can easily hack on it, which says
something good.


--- Larry Price <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sorry Bob, it really is a mess under the hood,
> why d'you think it takes it 30 seconds to authenticate a login
> when it's pretty much the only thing running on a 900Mhz 512MB box?

Doesn't take that long... sorry.

> And if every site wanted to be a cutrate slashdot

Bad choice.  It can and does a lot... and you can turn off whatever you don't
want.

> And they spam. (not a lot but more than enough)

I never never ever get spam... like maybe ONCE, when a developer DIED, and they
were upset.

Just another take... 

Seth


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[Eug-lug]Peercast

[Seth Cohn]

http://www.peercast.org/

P2P Audio Streaming.  I'm impressed.

This way makes sense to me.

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Re: [Eug-lug]EFN DSL

[Seth Cohn]

--- "Patrick R. Wade" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >if it's available here, I'll get it, but I am curious how the netork
> >is configured.  Who should I talk to about that?
> >
> 
> If you ask us here, we can probably get you the answers.  Your question is
> a little vague; the first answer i want to give is "DHCP" (i.e., an ethernet
> cable comes out of your DSL endpoint and attaches to the NIC on your host,
> you fire up a DHCP client and pull data, and you're all set).

But even that isn't true.  Because we also offer static IPs...

Tim, call the office, make our lives easier.

Seth


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Re: [Eug-lug]EFN DSL

[Seth Cohn]

--- Tim Howe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I will be in Eugene for about 7 months and need to get some kind of
> broadband.  Is EFN DSL worth having, and what do I have to do to get it, and
> do I have to sign a contract?
> 

Of course it's worth having (grin).

You just have to call, make arrangements... 484-9637

No contract.

Seth
(Disclaimer - Yes, I work @ efn.  Of course I'm biased.)

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[EUG-LUG:3829] Re: meetings

[Seth Cohn]

> > With summer about over are there going to be weekly or monthly meetings?
> 
> Good question.  If EFN is the meeting place, that's up to the EFN
> people.  When is EFN and an EFN person available?  Larry?  Seth?
> et al?

The problem was nobody during the summer, and then mixed with that the
commitment issue.  Larry got tired of watiing around and nobody showing up save
for Neil.

I'm going to suggest MONTHLY for now... and if the demand gets strong, add
meetings as needed.

Schedule wise, some Fridays and some Tuesdays are bad.Wednesday or Thursday
tended to be the best.

As for efn staff, there are 4 people who could attend/close: Larry, Patrick,
Roger and myself.  Only takes one of us, so once a month shouldn't be hard to
make happen without much pain.

Seth 

Seth


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[EUG-LUG:3816] Re: Debian question

[Seth Cohn]

> I installed Debian 3.0 off cdroms.  Everything was fine.
> I then wanted to keep up to date with the updates so I edited the sources
> file to update then upgrade off the web.  I started this and downloaded some
> files but then realized that I had put unstable instead of testing in my
> sources file.  I think testing is what I want since that is what I used
> before I installed 3.0.  


You downloaded files, but did you actually _install_ those files, or did you
stop it before it installed?  Sounds like you did.

> 1) Is testing what I want?

Testing and Unstable are related: Unstable is the true bleeding edge, and
rarely but occasionally breaks when someone uploads something not quite right,
or with dependancies that aren't met yet.  Testing is Unstable after a few
weeks, in other words "Hmm, nothing seems broken, ok, move a copy to Testing".

Keep in mind, 3.0 is _stable_ now, and adding stuff from testing/unstable is
fine, but often you'll endup with a mixed system with some oddness (ie having
to upgrade more than you expect)

> 2) What do I do now?  I haven't installed any of the unstable but how do I
> keep it from installing?  Do I do apt-get clean? then edit sources to
> testing and start over with the down load?

Delete the deb files it downloaded, or really, you don't even have to do that.

Just adjust the sources list and rerun.  It will figure it all out and not use
the extra files.  In many cases, the testing and unstable packages may well be
the same anyway.

FYI, for servers, I recommend using Stable, and then adding "testing" as needed
(apt can now pick and choose, see a previous post about pinning)  For home use,
I recommend Testing, as it will be the most current and often the largest
options and cool stuff to use. 

Seth






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[EUG-LUG:3666] Re: reliable ISPs

[Seth Cohn]

--- Jacob Meuser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, I'm getting pretty fed up with VyaNet.  I pay extra for a static
> IP address, but I haven't been able to get it when connecting the
> last few days.  This happens every so often, actually.
> 
> Any suggestions for a reliable ISP that doesn't charge outrageous
> amounts for a dial up static IP address?

Define 'reasonable amount to charge'?

Keep in mind, IP blocks aren't infinite (yet), so that static IP assigned to
a single user is using a resource that has to be paid for.

My brother in New York had a static IP dialup, but the ISP owned a Class _B_
address, since they got it early before the Internet got big.  As a result,
they had the IPs to burn, and it was easy enough for them.

At efn, _technically_, we could do static IPs.. and in fact, have done that
rarely.  However, we'd have to charge a reasonable amount to cover the IP that
cannot be used for anything else... 

If we're getting $17 a month for dialup now, what would you pay for a static IP
also?  I'm serious here.  I'm looking for a $ value, with enough extra to make
it worth our time and setup, etc...

Personally, Dialup static is pretty useless (most of the time, there are better
way of figuring out what the dynamic IP is and posting it, and dynamics's NOT
subject to DOS attacks, which static IPs are...), and I say this having used
one for many years. 

Seth

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[EUG-LUG:3566] Re: ezmlm

[Seth Cohn]

Ah.  A good reason to finally migrate stuff to mailman on the new server. 
Ok... let's find the time to do that.

Seth

--- Bob Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> About a month ago, I upgraded ezmlm on a machine I'm responsible for.
> Previously, it was about a year old.
> 
> Since that time, ezmlm has been partly broken.  Administrative
> messages are bounced.  Some, but not all, users have their posts
> rejected.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> BTW, this machine serves [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Somebody has tried many
> times to post to herding in the last day or two.  If it was you,
> please send me mail.
> 
> -- 
> Bob Miller  K
> kbobsoft software consulting
> http://kbobsoft.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 


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[EUG-LUG:3362] Re: php/sql, python, java

[Seth Cohn]

> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Benjamin Huot wrote:
> 
> > EFN is going to give access to PHP and MySQL within a week. Ray quoted an
> undisclosed source.

No, let me officially say that will NOT be happening.

There are NO PLANS for PHP or MySQL for user accounts, EVER.  If you have a
normal efn dialup account, and ~username webspace, you will NOT be getting PHP,
mysql, or other cool goodies. These are being reserved for hosting accounts,
based on the idea that efn is about everyone paying for what they can afford
and use, and if you need PHP and mysql, you should be paying for that usage of
cpu/bandwidth.

If you have a hosted domain, at some point soon (no date yet) you will have
PHP, and eventually, mySQL.  But not next week.  Due to a vendor problem, the
servers that would have given you PHP aren't functional.

Please don't start spreading rumors, and I'll speak to Ray about it too.

> > Is it possible to install JAVA or Python in an EFN account home directory
> or on a virtual host?

As Larry pointed out, Java is always available for applets, it's not a server
side thing.  No plans for server side java at all (I think server java is ugly)

Python is an odd duck... at some point, python will be available, but don't
hold out for it anytime soon.  Upgrading the shell server is on the list of
plans, but not as high as other more pressing issues.

Perl is available, as always.


Seth
speaking as efn General Manager
even if not from his [EMAIL PROTECTED] account




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[EUG-LUG:2897] Re: Suspend Linux from the command line?

[Seth Cohn]

--- Bob Crandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> G)  The Linux world is so big and changes are happening so fast nobody, not
> even Seth can keep up.

True.  I long ago gave up, and only read Freshmeat every few days or less...
(I've gone weeks without)... I haven't read Linux Today or Linux Weekly News in
months.

Um... while I like that I'm held up as a icon (as in  'not even'), the truth is
that the more 'real life' interferes, the less time I have to be the amazing
expert.  Though I try. (grin)

Seth
not quite a dead parrot



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[EUG-LUG:2873] Re: Mixing Debian testing and unstable

[Seth Cohn]

--- Larry Price <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> use wget or ftp to pull the relevant .debs into 
> /var/cache/apt/archives/

they don't have to be there.  Anywhere is fine.  In fact, it will get WIPED
there if you deleted the cached files.

> and then dpkg -i the_full_name_of_pkg_arch.deb

That works, but it's not as nice. (yes, I use it too...) 
The Right Way is what I quoted already.

> 
> > 
> > Thanks...
> > 
> > -- 
> > Bob Miller  K
> > kbobsoft software consulting
> > http://kbobsoft.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> 
> http://www.efn.org/~laprice( Community, Cooperation, Consensus
> http://www.opn.org ( Openness to serendipity, make mistakes
> http://www.efn.org/~laprice/poems  ( but learn from them.(carpe fructus ludi)
> 


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[EUG-LUG:2869] Re: Mixing Debian testing and unstable

[Seth Cohn]

Current version (>= .5) of apt supports this.  Read:

http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-howto/ch-apt-get.en.html

Specfically:

3.7 How to keep a mixed system
People often use the testing distribution because it is more stable than
unstable and more up-to-date than stable. However, users who would like to run
the latest versions of some packages but still rather not trust their entire
systems to unstable also have the option of running mixed testing/unstable
systems. On the flip side, more conservative users may wish to run mixed
stable/testing systems. 

To do that, put the following line on /etc/apt/apt.conf: 

 APT::Default-Release "testing";

Then, when going to install packages from unstable, just use the -t switch: 

 # apt-get -t unstable install packagename

Do not forget that to use packages from a version of Debian, one needs to add
an apt source line to the /etc/apt/sources.list file. In our example's case, we
need source lines for the unstable distribution besides the testing ones. 




3.8 How to upgrade packages from specific versions of Debian
apt-show-versions provides a safe way for users of mixed distributions to
upgrade their systems without getting more of the less-stable distribution than
they had in mind. For instance, it is possible to upgrade just your unstable
packages by running: 

 # apt-get install `apt-show-versions -u -b | grep unstable`




3.9 How to keep specific versions of packages installed (complex)
You may have occasion to modify something in a package and don't have time or
don't want to port those changes to a new version of the program. Or, for
instance, you may have just upgraded your Debian distribution to 3.0, but want
to continue with the version of a certain package from Debian 2.2. You can
"pin" the version you have installed so that it will not be upgraded. 

Using this resource is simple. You just need to edit the file
/etc/apt/preferences. 

The format is simple: 

 Package: 
 Pin: 
 Pin-Priority: 

For example, to keep package sylpheed that I have modified to use
"reply-to-list" at version 0.4.99, I add: 

 Package: sylpheed
 Pin: version 0.4.99*

Note that I used an * (asterisk). This is a "wildcard"; it say that I want that
this "pin" to be valid for all versions beginning with 0.4.99. This is because
Debian versions its packages with a "Debian revision" and I don't want to avoid
the installation of these revisions. So, for instance, versions 0.4.99-1 and
0.4.99-10 will be installed as soon as they are made available. Note that if
you modified the package you won't want to do things this way. 

The Pin-Priority field is optional; if not specified, it defaults to 989. 

Let's take a look at how pin priorities work. A priority lower than 0 indicates
that the package should never be installed. Priorities 0 to 100 denote packages
that are not installed and that have no available versions. These won't come
into the version-choosing process. Priority 100 is the priority assigned to an
installed package - for the installed version of a package to be replaced by a
different version, the replacement must have a priority greater than 100. 

Priorities above 100 indicate that a package should be installed. Typically,
the installed version of a package is changed only to upgrade it to a newer
version. Any priority between 100 and 1000 (inclusive) indicates this typical
behavior. A package with such a priority will not downgrade to an available
version with a lower version number. For instance, if I have sylpheed 0.5.3
installed and define a pin on sylpheed 0.4.99 with priority 999, package 0.4.99
will not be installed to satisfy the pin. To make a package "downgradable", to
satisfy the pin, it needs possess a priority greater than 1000. 

This concept of downgrading can have powerful applications; suppose that you
just upgraded your stable version of Debian to the testing one but wanted to
retract that decision - perhaps testing just wasn't "tested" enough to suit
you. You can define a default pin, using a wildcard for the package name, to
come back to stable. For example: 

 Package: *
 Pin: release a=stable
 Pin-Priority: 1001

After that, a apt-get -u dist-upgrade will downgrade your system to the stable
version. 

A pin can be specified on a package's version, release or origin. 

Pinning on a version, as we have seen, supports literal version numbers as well
as wildcards to specify several versions at one time. 

Option release depends on the Release file from an APT repository or from a CD.
This option may be of no use at all if you're using package repositories that
don't provide this file. You may see the contents of the Release files that you
have on /var/lib/apt/lists/. The paramters for a release are: a (archive), c
(components), v (version), o (orig

[EUG-LUG:2782] Re: EUGLUG Wiki Use Policy

[Seth Cohn]

> On Thu, 30 May 2002, Beaker wrote:
> 
> > What is the EUG-LUG Wiki Use policy?

It's freely usable, however, checking with me first is a good idea.

> I'm in a local canoeing club that
> might
> > be interested in using Wiki as a substitute for the traditional electronic
> > bulletin board. 

It does NOT work for that.  I have tried and failed, so I speak from
experience.
I recommend a pile of other solutions over wiki for DISCUSSION.  Wiki's
strength is documentation and idea expansion.

>The club (see Cascade Canoe Club @ www.efn.org/~canoe/ ) is
> > non-profit and currently hosted at EFN.

efn will have a really really cool solution very very soon.  Contact me
privately for more info.

Seth


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[EUG-LUG:2594] Re: Heads-Up: Linux Cluster Talk FRIDAY 5:30-7pm @EFN

[Seth Cohn]

BE THERE OR BE SQUARE/ROUND/OVAL/RECTANGULAR!

I'll be there, looks like...

--- Ben Barrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Linux, Clustering, and other Fun Stuff at Los Alamos."
> Date:  Friday, May 10
> Time:  5:30-7:00pm
> Place: EFN,  43 W Broadway
> 
> Matt Sottile from LANL's ACL will (finally) be able to visit and give us
> some of his time; he will talk about current work in Linux, Clustering,
> and Other Fun Stuff at LANL.  Matt is a UO graduate (Masters in CIS),
> and started working with LANL through the school; now he is has a full
> time position in New Mexico.  He works in the Advanced Computing Lab,
> with some other fun people who dig away at the kernel as well as
> hardware...  We'll be chatting it up, enjoying Matt's info and stories,
> and asking him questions too -- should be a barrel of fun, and the plan
> is to get some beers immediately afterward!
> 
> Matt says:
> "I will bring free CDs, a few t-shirts, and the porta-cluster.  The talk
> will be non-technical, and students might be particularly interested in
> coming since I can talk about student opportunities at the lab.  Brewpub
> and casual will be great - I'm not interested in a seminar - but telling
> people about our cool stuff and stuff that might be relevant to them."
> 
> Sorry I took so long in generating this notice; I hope your Friday
> evening is still free!!
> 
> Ben Barrett
> 


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[EUG-LUG:2516] Re: LTSP meeting & EUGLUG meeting

[Seth Cohn]

--- Horst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 1 May 2002, Seth Cohn wrote:
> > Yes, the idea of using the Linux meeting as a starting point was my idea. 

> To be fair, Chris Calise had announced that a long time ago 

Yeah, Chris asked me about the meeting space, and I suggested May 2nd due to
the overlap in interest.  Chris is trying to attract more than just the EUGLUG
crowd in the hopes of creating an Open Source support network.  Some of the
Luggers are interested in this also, and others in the community too..



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[EUG-LUG:2515] Re: LTSP meeting & EUGLUG meeting

[Seth Cohn]

--- Larry Price <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Come by EFN on friday, it's art walk, so you can stand around, talk about
> > > computers, look at art, and act sophisticated so you can attract the
> women
> > > who come by to look at the art.
> > 
> > Does this *really* work?
> 
> Dependent on certain key factors, the quality of the art must exceed the
> gullibility of the women, and the emulation of sophistication has to be
> consistent.

And you can't sit there and wax on about computers alone, especially about
emulation, no matter how sophisicated it might be... remember the art's the
thing.  (grin)

Seth

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[EUG-LUG:2499] Re: LTSP meeting & EUGLUG meeting

[Seth Cohn]

Yes, the idea of using the Linux meeting as a starting point was my idea.  The
overlap between the interest is large enough, and if people are coming for the
EUGLUG meeting, and aren't interested in the LTSP (and other open source-ish
projects on the table to discuss) they can do something else for a bit...

I was the one who suggested the date/time, so blame me.

Seth



--- Linux Rocks ! <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You know what! Your right! However at the time of the original posting we 
> were still having meetings at river road. I think we were talking about using
> 
> EFN, but I dont think we had firm plans when chris bounced errr posted 
> the message.
> 
> Jamie
> 
> Sometime just before Tuesday 30 April 2002 11:57 pm Neil Parker Wrote
> about:[EUG-LUG:2496] LTSP meeting & EUGLUG meeting
> : On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Edward Craig wrote:
> : >You are cordially invited to an introductory brainstorming session to
> : >create a group to promote and support the use of open source software and
> : >the Linux Terminal Server Project in Lane County. The mission of this
> : >group will be to serve as an umbrella organization for local Linux
> : >advocacy groups and individuals volunteering for this project.
> : >[...]
> : >Where: Eugene Free Net office
> : >43 W. Broadway
> : >Eugene
> : >
> : >When: May 2
> : >7 pm
> :
> : Umm...isn't this the same time and place as this week's EUGLUG meeting?
> : (Granted, this is a project that many EUGLUG members will probably be
> : interested in, but trying to hold two separate meetings at the same time
> : in that office could get a bit confusing...)
> :
> :- Neil Parker
> 
> -- 
> for setting/changing your eug-lug mailinglist subscription use this website:
> http://wWw.RockSolidNetworks.com/eug-lug.html
> no microsoft products were used to produce this message.
> 


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[EUG-LUG:2434] Re: Fwd: Wondering about euglug meetings.

[Seth Cohn]

43 West Broadway.

Not 45.


--- Roger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Around Thu,Apr 25 2002, at 03:30,  Ronald LeVine, wrote:
> > 
> > WHere are the meetings being held nowadays???
> > 
> > With regards,
> > Ron LeVine
> 
> EFN office today.  
> 45 W broadway  
> Eugene
> 
> 
> -- 
> Roger
> ---
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> The following is generated by /usr/games/fortune:
> No extensible language will be universal.
>   -- T. Cheatham
> 


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[EUG-LUG:2353] Mooix

[Seth Cohn]

http://mooix.net/

For those (like me) who like adventure-text style environments, this is the
ultimate.  A hybrid of MOO (Lambdamoo style) code and unix, Joey Hess (one of
the Debian folks) formerly wrote perlmoo, and this is far better.  Take a
look... 

Some of mooix's features (and buzzwords) include:

* Methods can be written in _any_ language.

  Because mooix methods are regular unix programs, any program written in
  any language can be used as a mooix method. Write methods in C for speed,
  take advantage of perl's text processing power, or python's OO goodness.
  Or even write something in shell script, just 'cause you can. No more
  struggling with a crippled moo-specific language.

* Flexible user authentication, and login via ssh, telnet, etc.

  Since mooix is (normally) logged into when a user logs into the unix
  system that hosts it, mooix user authentication can be based on PAM, NIS,
  or whatever other technoligy you like. And the user can log in using ssh,
  telnet, or whatever other remote login method you want to install.

* Multiple sessions per user.

  Have you ever wanted to have more than one window open on a moo, each
  logged in as the same user? Mooix makes it easy. Log in from work without
  logging out from home (just don't let the boss catch you..).

* Natural Language Processing.

  Mooix processes plain English to figure out what you mean.There's no
  need to talk to it in stilted zork-ese ("get lamp"), when you can say 
  "Pick up the lamp and light it, then enter the cave". (You can still use
  the short forms if you prefer.)

* Use your favorite unix tools in the moo.

  You can write programs while logged into the moo, using your favorite
  editor. The moo makes use of other unix tools like pagers, as well.

* Hierarchical object-oriented database.

  Suprise! This is just the regular unix filesystem; a mooix object is a
  special directory, a method is a program in a directory, etc. This makes
  for easy object maintanance and administration using your favorite file
  managing tools.

* Method sandboxing.

  Each method runs in its own sandbox, so no method can interfere with any
  other.

* Enhanced permissions system.

  Mooix extendes the traditional unix file permissions system with an
  object oriented twist. The added semantics eliminate the need for any
  set-uid methods, or world-writable files. They make it easy to write an
  object and let anyone fiddle with it, without much worry about them
  tricking its methods into doing something you did not intend.

* Upgradability.

  Since mooix uses the unix filesystem as its object database, and because
  of a special object splitting method used to partition the core moo
  objects between immutable objects in /usr and locally-changeable objects
  in /var, it is possible, and rather easy to upgrade a moo database
  without losing your local changes. It may prove to be possible to do many
  mooix upgrades without brining the moo down at all!

* Pre-emptive multitasking environment.

  Since mooix methods run as regular unix processes, a bunch of them can be
  running at one time. With no messing with threads, and no worries about 
  an expensive operation locking up everyone's moo sesion until it finishes.

* Scalability.

  Unlike some moos, mooix supports an effectively unlimited number of
  objects of any size (just add disk space). Mooix requires about five
  megabytes of memory per user logged in, and can use as much memory as
  your OS and hardware support. Mooix is inherently parallelized and thus
  scalable on SMP machines.

* Funky daemon name.

   What other system can boast of a daemon named "mood"?


Mooix has the following noteworthy mis-feature:

- Anyone who is allowed to add code to the moo has a shell account.

  That's right, because mooix methods run as regular unix processes, if
  you're allowed to write a method, you're not much more than one '/bin/sh'
  away from an shell (unprivledged) on the system. There are technologies
  like User Mode Linux (and the virtual server patch
  http://www.solucorp.qc.ca/miscprj/s_context.hc) that we hope will
  alleviate this problem (and throwing a spare machine at it works pretty
  well too), but for now only trusted people should be allowed to add code
  to your moo. So think hard before installing mooix on your system, and
  think harder before going anyone a programmer account.





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[EUG-LUG:2322] Re: "Revolution OS" Found!

[Seth Cohn]

--- Bob Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Seth Cohn wrote:
> 
> > I'll offer some shelf space to EUGLUG at EFN,
> IF someone will code
> > up (or find @ freshmeat) and install, (EUGLUG
> will provide the
> > webspace), a lending library tracking program
> to make it really easy
> > so that we know WHO borrows things.
> 
> That wouldn't work half as well as a sheet of
> paper on a clipboard,
> tied to the shelf with a string.
> 
> Four columns:
> 
> WHAT  WHO   DATE OUT   
>  DATE IN
>
>
=|=||==

Gah, you are no fun.  What kind of techno geek
are you??? (grin).

Ok... Fine.  Kbob's offered a system that doesn't
crash, can't be spammed or hacked, has instant
lookup ability, and otherwise seems solid.  Works
for me.  If the pen runs out of ink, it'll crash
hard, though.

Seth


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[EUG-LUG:2318] Re: "Revolution OS" Found!

[Seth Cohn]

We had a small lending library when we held
meetings at PC Training Center.

I'll offer some shelf space to EUGLUG at EFN,
IF someone will code up (or find @ freshmeat) and
install, (EUGLUG will provide the webspace), a
lending library tracking program to make it
really easy so that we know WHO borrows things.

Seth

--- Beaker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks to Bob Miller I now have my very own
> copy of "Revolution OS" - thanks
> again Bob! I'll pass it along anyone interested
> when I'm done with it - let
> me know. In a similar vein, I'm wondering if
> there's any interest in
> creating a lending library - I've got a couple
> of books plus some open
> source software CDs I could contribute (some
> are even current ).
> 
> Cheers,
> Beaker - aka Jeff Woodall
> 


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[EUG-LUG:2301] Re: What are .udeb files?

[Seth Cohn]

apt is a good bot. Good bot, apt...

apt is an infobot on irc... very cool program.

Seth




--- Rob Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I asked  on the #debian channel, and it
> spoke thusly...
> 
>  udebs are "regular debian packages that are
> not policy complient.
>  They are used by the new debian-installer
> project, to build up the
>  actual system that then installs debian." --
> thus spake Joey Hess
> 
> -Rob
> 
> > On 20020412.1122, Bob Miller said ...
> >
> > The Debian archive contains a number of files
> whose name ends in
> > ".udeb".  A casual search of the usual places
> hasn't revealed what
> > .udeb files are, so I thought I'd ask here.
> > 
> > What are Debian .udeb files?
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Bob Miller 
> K
> > kbobsoft software consulting
> > http://kbobsoft.com
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> 


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[EUG-LUG:2290] Re: May 10 meeting (yes friday): LANL/cluster visitor

[Seth Cohn]

--- Ben Barrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Matt Sottile from LANL's ACL (doing cluster
> research) will be able to
> visit with us only on Friday, May 10th.
> Seth, Is EFN available as meetingspace? 

Certainly.  Just make sure once you get a time
set, you confirm with either Larry, Patrick or
myself and get a firm commitment from one of us
to be there.  That's the second friday, so we
won't be having a Artwalk that night...

Seth



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[EUG-LUG:2271] Re: Thursday clinic locations

[Seth Cohn]

16 GB

No, it shouldn't be.  That seems REALLY high...
maybe with source and all  How did you get it
that big?  Is it respecting symlinks?

I was thinking more like a caching proxy, which
will be fast enough with a 768K in the
background.


Seth


--- Bob Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Seth Cohn wrote:
> 
> > If someone pleads hard enough with Patrick,
> Larry
> > and myself, we might be persuaded to set up a
> > local mirror of Debian for fast installs...
> > (grin)
> 
> I've done this.  It works good.  You can
> mis-install woody several
> times in one evening. (-:
> 
> Seriously, it's 16 Gb, and I'd be happy to
> clone my disk and rsync
> script for you guys.  I have everything for
> i386, and nothing for the
> other architectures.
> 
> -- 
> Bob Miller  K
> kbobsoft software consulting
> http://kbobsoft.com
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 


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[EUG-LUG:2268] Re: Thursday clinic locations

[Seth Cohn]

> Would one of the EFN regulars like to post
> parking info?  It's my
> understanding that the closest parking lot is
> the Diamond lot behind
> EFN, with entrances on 8th and on Olive, but it
> is not free[beer].

That parking lot is free to people after 5:30 who
are patrons of bookmark and others stores.  EFN
isn't listed, but of course, should you visit one
of those stores, you can probably stay in the lot
afterward (wink wink nudge nudge).

Completely free and safe parking is either the
meters on Willamette (or elsewhere) _after_ 6pm
or better yet:

The "parkcade" on 7/8th and Willamette... across
from the hult.  __Unless an event is going on at
the Hult___ (it happens) it's free parking after
5pm, since it's one free hour, and they stop
charging at 6pm.  A word of warning: if they put
a parking slip on your windshield, you WILL need
to turn in the yellow ticket EVEN IF YOU DO NOT
OWE MONEY TO THEM.  Annoying but true.  $25 fine
20 days later for not paying (a real pain)...
they usually 'slip' the cars about 6:30.  If you
owe nothing, you just make sure you deposit
everything in the payment box right before you
leave.

That might seem complex, but it's not.  I just
don't want people to get burned by Diamond's
stupid rules.  (As I did a few times).

Unloading computers: Either park near
TacoTime/A&W/Scan|Design on Willamette at the
meter, OR unload with blinking lights on around
the rear (look for the big EUGENE sign on the
building, behind US Bank) and come around the
building to the front with the computer.  It's
not a bad walk, about as hard as currently with
Emerald.

> After next Thursday?  Who knows?  We'll see how
> the EFN thing works
> next week. 


We have DHCP server, NATed internet, 768K... 
We do not have parts, sorry.  Spare Cables might
be found, but I recommend bringing...

Wireless WILL be an option (it'll be back by next
week I hope)

If someone pleads hard enough with Patrick, Larry
and myself, we might be persuaded to set up a
local mirror of Debian for fast installs...
(grin)

Seth


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[EUG-LUG:2258] Fwd: linux

[Seth Cohn]

Can someone help Richard out please?

> Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 09:46:12 -0700
> From: albritton9 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: linux
> 
> i repartitioned my hard drive and tried to
> install linux mandrake 8.2.
> however i ram into a problem with the swap file
> partition and some other
> thing it needed my in put for. i tried auto
> allocate and it said i did not
> have enough space for that but i had a 20 gig
> paprtion touse for it ? i
> reallocated some drive space and now the
> partiton is just over twelve
> gigs. what am i doing wrong? i would appreciate
> any help you could give
>  Richard Albritton



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[EUG-LUG:2223] As seen on Slashdot

[Seth Cohn]

Problem with Making Money with Linux Services
(Score:5, Funny) 
by Greyfox on Friday April 05, @02:53PM
(#3292379) 
(User #87712 Info |
http://www.flying-rhenquest.net)  
Everyone talks about how you should make money
with services. Well a few years ago, I set up a
guy with a linux based web server and hacked out
some scripts to keep 4 modems dialed out and
bonded at the same time. Just recently I ran
across his E-Mail address and sent him an E-Mail
asking him if I'd pissed him off or something
since I hadn't heard from him in ages. He told me
no, and the machine I set him up with was still
running great. 
Having to keep finding new customers is a royal
pain in the ass. You're much better off with
Windows, where they keep coming back... 

Seth's comment: this is why _support_ is where
you make money: sell support contracts.  It's
like the extended warranty - most people buy them
and never use them.
 


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[EUG-LUG:2205] Re: EFN grand opening party?

[Seth Cohn]

5:30-8pm tonight

43 West Broadway, efn's new digs.

Live Music, party food, and more...

I recommend parking in the overpark 1 block
north, since it will be free after 5pm...





--- Mr O <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is that tonight? I've heard nothing further on
> it. Must make plans. Either I 
> frag or I party. Just have to know.
> 


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[EUG-LUG:2142] FYI

[Seth Cohn, EFN General Manager]

Forwarded as this will affect this mailing list, and potentially all
parties on this list.  I don't expect this to make Slashdot sometime later
day...

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 07:59:15 -0800 (PST)
From: "Seth Cohn, EFN General Manager" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: efn to be sold to MSN

For immediate release:

Effective today April 1, 2002:

The efn board in executive committee agreed to sell efn's assets and
customer base to Microsoft for an undisclosed sum, but expected to top one
million dollars.

Planet Janet Tarver, board president, could not be reached for comment but
was overheard saying "I'm working on getting the Oregon Country Fair sold
to Disney next..."

efn, soon to be renamed effmcn.com, currently has about a dozen employees.  
"Hey, if it means I can sell more DSL, more power to them," said Ray
Cesaletti.  Doug Wirth was quoted as saying "Grrr..." and muttering under
his breath.  Libris Solar was already sporting a new Microsoft Logo
branded tie and a sharp looking suit.  The system administrators seemed
relieved, with Patrick Wade's comment being typical, "That Unix stuff was
just too confusing."

Oregon Public Networking, the parent 503(c) of efn, is already planning on
using the funds to further good causes, including free Hotmail accounts
for all of Oregon, upgrading every machine in Eugene to Windows XP, and
the rounding up of all Linux users and giving them a good spanking.

Seth Cohn, efn general manager, was disappointed in the sale, and vowed
that "Bill would never 0wn him", and that he'd start up a new ISP under
the stairs somewhere.  Wandering around in a daze, muttering something
about 'my precious', wringing his hands, he was last seen heading
toward Mordor or Redmond, we weren't sure which.

## Seth Cohn  [EMAIL PROTECTED] Most of you steal your software   - Bill
## General Manager  541-484-9637 640k should be enough for anybody - Gates
## Eugene Formerly Free Microsoft Community Network - effmcn.com  

[EUG-LUG:2127] Re: Announcement: Eugene Spafford visiting a Portland meeting, April 5th 2002

[Seth Cohn]

I'd love to go, but efn.org's grand opening is
that night... (and here's the plug for it:  live
music, free snacks, geek central)

Seth

--- Ben Barrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I wanted to forward this announcement again, in
> full, since I mentioned
> it a while ago and got no response...  Sounds
> like a good opportunity; I
> am trying to find a way up there on the 5th
> (currently trying to borrow
> a car).  Email me if you're going... this is
> next Friday, one week away.
> 
> Spaf sounds cool   8^D
> 
> message follows:
> 
> 
> Folks,
> 
> Eugene Spafford will be in town to talk to the
> CRIME group on Friday,
> April 5th, at 10AM at Verizon.  [Ben says: 
> South side of Portland]
> http://crime.zotconsulting.com/meetings.php3. 
> He will be discussing the
> art, science, and direction of information
> security.   Block the time to
> be there.
> 
> Spaf's bio is set forth below.  It is a real
> honor to have him here to
> speak. Thanks to Tripwire for arranging it!
> 
> Eugene H. Spafford is a professor of Computer
> Sciences at Purdue
> University,  a professor of Philosophy, the
> university's Information
> Systems Security Officer, and is Director of
> the Center for Education
> Research Information Assurance and Security. 
> CERIAS is a campus-wide
> multi-disciplinary Center, with a
> broadly-focused mission to explore
> issues related to protecting information and
> information resources.
> Spaf has written extensively about information
> security, software
> engineering, and professional ethics. He has
> published over 100 articles
> and reports on his research, has written or
> contributed to over a dozen
> books, and he serves on the editorial boards of
> most major infosec-
> related journals.
> 
> Dr. Spafford is a Fellow of the ACM, Fellow of
> the AAAS, Fellow of
> the IEEE, and is a charter recipient of the
> Computer Society's Golden
> Core award. Among other activities, he is chair
> of the ACM's U.S.
> Public Policy Committee, a member of the Board
> of Directors of the
> Computing Research Association , and is a
> member of the US Air Force
> Scientific Advisory Board. He regularly serves
> as a consultant on
> information security and computer crime to law
> firms, major
> corporations, U.S. government agencies, and
> state and national law
> enforcement agencies around the world.  He was
> the year 2000 recipient
> of the NIST/NCSC National Computer Systems
> Security Award, generally
> regarded as the field's most significant honor
> in information security
> research, and was named as one of the "Five
> Most Influential Leaders in
> Information Security" by the readers and
> editors of Information Security
> in 1999.
> 
> More information may be found at
> .
> 
> In his spare time, Spaf wonders why he has no
> spare time.
> 
> -- 
> --
> Ben Barrett
> Software & Systems Engineer
> counterclaim
> Phone: 541.484.9235
> Fax:  541.484.9193
> 


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[EUG-LUG:2072] Re: TiVo Experts please read this!!! Others can read too.....

[Seth Cohn]

--- "Nyal R. Cammack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> To the Tivo gurus in the group.
> 
> I've got a current subscription with directTV. 
> I've been thinking about
> getting a new receiver with TiVo but I've got
> some questions
> 1.  do you have to have a subscription to
> TiVo's service to use the
> digital recording features of Tivo???

Yes.

> I don't
> care to subscribe but
> would like to record programs...

The service price is very reasonable ($10 a
month)
and keep in mind that you are really getting
something for that price, far better than any
other tv guide out there, and it will record
things when you want them, even you don't know
when they are on.


> PS...I had an idea about hacking a Cricket
> Phone for use with a laptop (
> or your desktop I suppose)  Anyone interested
> in pursuing this
> further   Nyal

Let me know how this goes :)

Seth


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[EUG-LUG:2071] Re: DSL-QWEST

[Seth Cohn]

--- Jim K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am considering a QWEST DSL package that is
> available to me through
> 3/31/02. I have two concerns about it.
> 1. The ISP is MSN . Does anyone on the list
> have experience with linux and
> msn as a ISP.  As I remember the MSN site has
> problems with non-microsoft
> browsers.( opera I think has IE compatibility
> available. I wil check that
> out.)

efn supports everything.  You can get Qwest DSL
and use efn as your ISP.

> 2. Because of reliability concerns does it come
> with a dail in backup
> optioon foor when dsl is down.

efn does.

>   #2 I will have to check with QWEST. But I am
> curious about whether anyone
> else has used msn successfully.
>  The offer is free modem/activation/free modem/
> no contract
> required/256k/$39.95(640K for 49.95) It was in
> this month's phone bill.

efn's price is slightly higher I believe, but you
are supporting local business, getting much
better service, and making me happy.  Call efn
for more details: http://www.efn.org 484-9637

Seth
general manager of efn


> Jim K
> 


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[EUG-LUG:2058] Re: Movie night and beer!

[Seth Cohn]

Sounds good to me

Sure why not.  Tio Pepe at 5pm.

Seth

The man with the movie...


--- Dexter Graphic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Would anyone like to get together for dinner
> and Mexican beer tonight 
> around 17:00 at Tio Pepe (1041 River Road)
> before going over to Emerald 
> Park to watch Linux/free software videos? I
> think it would be great fun!
> 
> Dexter
> 


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[EUG-LUG:2026] Re: Revolution OS - documentary on Open Source/Linux

[Seth Cohn]

--- Bob Crandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This Thursday at River Road Parks and
> Recreation?

That is what I was thinking.  Would there be
enough chairs, etc?  1 1/2 hours is a long time
to be watching something if it's not comfortable.

Seth



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[EUG-LUG:2006] Re: PLAC: linux bootable CD w/ forensics tools

[Seth Cohn]

--- Bob Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > since the drives are mounted read-only you
> cannot directly change
> > the root password to recover (or take over) a
> linux box; )
> 
>   # mount -o remount,rw /mnt/root
>   # chroot /mnt/root passwd root

Damn, you beat me to it.

Ben, does it have chkrootkit?  I REALLY REALLY
want a disc with that...

Seth


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[EUG-LUG:1987] Re: Web Marketing/Sales/Design postion at efn.org

[Seth Cohn]

--- Linux Rocks ! <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Seth,
>   Errr... how much focus on marketting  and
> sales... 

Lots of Marketing and Sales.

In fact, without that, don't even bother
applying.


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[EUG-LUG:1985] Web Marketing/Sales/Design postion at efn.org

[Seth Cohn]

Just a quick pointer:

efn is hiring. (see http://www.efn.org)

Position is a combination of Marketing, Sales,
Web Design and webmaster with emphasize on
the Marketing and Sales but it really needs to be
a techy role too (ie the typical Frontpage using
person is not the ideal candidate).







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[EUG-LUG:1881] Re: wireless network

[Seth Cohn]

Bob, you live in the middle of nowhere...
Heck, I don't think the signal will even leave
your property (grin)

On the other hand, I just installed a wireless
access point at EFN.  Currently, it's MAC address
limited, so you need to be authorized to use the
access... but at some point, once things are more
setup, we'll probably open it up for more public
use. (Such as during Linux User Group meetings)

Seth

P.S.  Regarding large scale wireless, I'll be
setting up some sort of meeting soon with others
to discuss future plans.

P.P.S.  Regarding consulting co-ops, Yes, I'm
interested, and Bob Crandell and I were talking
about this for a while, and it was clear that it
could be very messy, depending on how it was
setup.

--- Bob Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> BTW, I am running a public wireless network at
> our house.  Network
> nams is "Any", no encryption or access control,
> DHCP server gives out
> NATted IP addresses, firewall passes most
> traffic through to the rest
> of the 'net.
> 
> So far as I know, nobody has ever used it
> except Anne and me.  That it
> to say, I've never seen the light blinking when
> it wasn't one of us
> blinking it.
> 
> -- 
> Bob Miller  K
> kbobsoft software consulting
> http://kbobsoft.com
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 


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[EUG-LUG:1822] Re: Mailing list summaries

[Seth Cohn]

Rob, Michelle and I are installing a new box to
serve mail, and mailing lists. (Thanks to Justin
for the box).

All of this and more should be possible with the
new mailing list software (mailman)

Seth


--- "Kahli R. Burke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Here's a request...
> 
> It would be nice to get a periodic summary of
> all of the euglug lists 
> (wearables, activism, tech lunch, etc.) posted
> to the main list (maybe 
> the web site too).  At the minimum, a posting
> listing all of the mailing 
> list addresses and instructions on how to
> subscribe.  A nice feature 
> would be some information on the traffic on
> each of the lists, such as 
> the total number of messages posted for the
> period (monthly?) and the 
> average number of posts per day.
> 
> Jamie, Seth, or whoever is administering these
> lists, can this be done 
> easily?  Would anybody else find this useful?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Kahli
> 


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[EUG-LUG:1817] DOJ M$ comments online...

[Seth Cohn]

Kbob's is online at 
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/ms_tuncom/public/18/mtc-00017012.htm

Anyone else's?


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[EUG-LUG:1812] Re: StarOffice 6 beta

[Seth Cohn]

You _don't_ want the BETA.  It's expireware.
And the new SO6 is payware.

Use the latest version of OpenOffice, I think
it's about as functional, and won't expire/etc.

Seth

--- Mr O <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can put it on CD if you need it. You'd just
> have to make it to a euglug 
> meeting or come by my work to pick it up.
> 
> On Friday 01 March 2002 08:27 am, you wrote:
> > I missed the beta distro. Anyone have a copy
> that they are willing to
> > share?
> >
> 
>
_
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 


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[EUG-LUG:1800] Fwd: Re: [PLUG] Calendar this summer

[Seth Cohn]

--- David Mandel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:12:49 -0800 (PST)
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> CC: Seth Cohn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>Cooper Stevenson
> Subject: Re: [PLUG] Calendar this summer 
> 
> 
> I think I missed this discussion.
> Could someone please fill me in?
> I know a lot of us would like to start having
> some small events.
> Seth Cohn from the Eugene users group has been
> talking about doing
> something, and so has Cooper Stevenson from the
> Mid-Valley group.
> 
> At times, I've toyed with either a
> mini-conference or maybe a geek party.
> 
> Spring Break for Geeks
>   Oregon Linux Users Invade Newport
> for Weekend
> They spend time
>Testing Micro Brews, Running Computers,
> Playing on Beach
> 
> 
>
> Dave
> 
> 
> On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Kevin Cosgrove wrote:
> 
> >
> > I'd avoid The Oregon Brewers Festival, The
> Bite, The Taste of
> > Beaverton and Sand in the City.  I don't have
> the dates for the
> > first 3.  Sand in the City is July 12-14.
> >
> > 
> > Say, if you need a band to play at your
> festival, let me know.
> > 
> >
> >
> > On 27 February 2002 at 9:16, Richard F
> Seymour <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > FREE GEEK is planning a big tech festival /
> fun / block party thing for
> > this summer. The date is not set yet, but
> will probably be on a Saturday
> > in June, July, or August, avoiding the 4th of
> July, Rose Festival, etc.
> >
> > Anyone know of any big tech gatherings of any
> sort planned for this
> > summer that we should be aware of when
> setting the date?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--
> > Support PLUG and the Open Source Community
> http://www.linuxfund.org/lugs/?lug=plug
> > To unsubscribe from the PLUG list visit
> http://www.pdxlinux.org/mailing_list/
> >
> 
> 
>  
> Sincerely,
>   David
> Mandel
>   Chief
> Activist
>  
> Portland Linux/Unix Group
>   1440
> NE 59th
>  
> Portland, Oregon 97213
>   (360)
> 260-2066 at work
>   (541)
> 730-5285 cell
> 
>   
>
==
>David Mandel, Product Manager  
> http://www.MicroSharp.com
>   Other Affiliations
>David Mandel   
> http://www.DavidMandel.com
>Portland Linux/Unix Group  
> http://pdxLinux.org
>LinuxFund  
> http://LinuxFund.org
>   
>
==
> 


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[EUG-LUG:1769] Domains re-registered...

[Seth Cohn]

Just re-registered euglug.com and .org
.net already had another year on it.

I delayed too long toward the expire date, and
couldn't transfer it to someone cheaper, so I
paid $17 for each domain from domainmonger (who
isn't nearly as nice these days as when I used
them initially...)

Contributions toward the domain prices welcomed,
but not required.

And I'll transfer them (and others I own) to one
of the cheaper domain places in the next few
months, so next time it should be closer to half
that price...

Seth




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[EUG-LUG:1682] Randal Schwartz talk, Feb 24th 2-4pm

[Seth Cohn]

Randal Schwartz, noted author and Perl wizard,
will be talking
Sunday Feb 24th, 2-4pm
on Oregon's Computer Crime Law
at the offices of Eugene Free Community Network 
(43 West Broadway, Eugene, http://www.efn.org)

Randal is the author of:

* Learning Perl, 3rd Edition
* Learning Perl on Win32 Systems 
* Effective Perl Programming: Writing Better
Programs With Perl 
* Object Oriented Perl 
* Programming Perl (uncredited in most recent
edition)

He is also, thanks to Oregon's Computer Crime
law, a convicted felon.
 
Come hear him talk about the case and trial,
about what is wrong with the law as written, 
and why all technology professionals in Oregon
should be concerned.

Randal L. Schwartz is a two-decade veteran of the
software industry, skilled in software design,
system administration, security, technical
writing, and training.  He writes regular columns
for a number of magazines and is a frequent
contributor to the Perl newsgroups, and has
moderated the comp.lang.perl.announce newsgroup
since its inception.  He is one of the few people
in the world qualified to use P+ in his
'geekcode'. He is also a founding board member of
the Perl Mongers (perl.org), the worldwide Perl
grassroots advocacy organization.  Since 1985,
Randal has owned and operated Stonehenge
Consulting Services, Inc. 

For more info on Randal and the case:
http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/
http://www.lightlink.com/spacenka/fors/
http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs/

This talk brought to you by Eugene Unix Gnu Linux
User Group
(http://www.euglug.org)

Please forward to anyone who might be interested.

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[EUG-LUG:1676] Re: web server

[Seth Cohn]

> It's about time to bring it to that ethernet
> connection and hand it
> off to Seth. 

Me, why me? (grin)

> BTW, 'apt-get install mailman
> -s', which I know Seth
> wants for the lists, has apache and
> apache-common as dependencies,
> which will obliterate my apache-from-source
> install.  :(

Not if you'd done it the Debian way, which is
grab the source from Debian archives, it'll have
the deb build scripts.  Make your changes (if
any) and build a custom deb.  That would work
fine.

ObLinuxInFilm:

watching The Score (Ed Norton, Robert DeNiro)
2 screen shots:
1st is ls -al
Shows a pretty empty directory, but there is a
.pinetemp file in it.

Second screen right after is:
--
telnet machine
connected to machine.com

Linux 2.0.28

machine login:
password: **

bash$
--

Hey, at least it's better than them running a
Commodore 64



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[EUG-LUG:1629] Re: website redesign (part 2)

[Seth Cohn]

--- Rob Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just a quick 2nd attempt, trying to incorporate
> most things mentioned.
> This is a mockup, this is only a mockup...
bext event section should be at top of column,
then mailing list, etc...  Ie in order of
priority of info (voting fruther down)

Looks nice... I'm using large fonts, so I'll try
it from work as well... how does it look in lynx?

Seth




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[EUG-LUG:1545] Meeting tonight cancelled due to weather

[Seth Cohn]

Stay home.

The weather's bad.

Trees falling all over.

Power failing all over.

Both Bobs without power.

Do not bother to attend EUGLUG meeting
at Emerald Park.

Stay home.

Stay safe.

Message ends.

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[EUG-LUG:1280] Re: BSD on the laptop...

[Seth Cohn]

> ListProc on efn spent much of the day being
> unhappy; one of the files
> to which it needed to write was owned by root. 
> We are working on 
> establishing why that happened (current guess
> is Stupid Admin Tricks).

The above opinion does not reflect those of efn
or its' staff. (grin)

I have a donated box from Justin, that now that
Rob's back, will be used as the mailing list
server, replacing both EFN's eug-lug list, and
the other euglug.net lists.  We will move all
_lists_ to euglug.org, and use mailman.

Look for this some time soon,

Seth





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[EUG-LUG:1279] Re: back

[Seth Cohn]

--- Bob Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> EUGLUG declared war on Springfield,
> ComputerBase moved to Goodpasture,
> we got five inches of snow at our house
> Saturday night, and Seth
> stopped coming to EUGLUG meetings.

Seth is working every single day moving EFN to
it's new home.  Once things are normal, Seth
should be back at meeting (especially if they
take place _at_ EFN) and heck, he might even stop
talking about himself in the 3rd person.

Obpix:

http://www.drix.com/pages/pix.htm

don't miss me in with the giant EFN.org logo...
I'm wearing a giant Tux on my shirt.




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[EUG-LUG:1101] Re: Debian kernel upgrades

[Seth Cohn]

> >But not the kernel.  My kernel is still at
> 2.2.17, even though
> >the only kernels on the debian mirrors are
> various 2.2.19-based
> >things.
> >
> >Why?

Because.  Do you really want to replace a custom
built kernel with a stock kernel?  In order to
allow things like that, Kernels aren't versioned
so that upgrades won't occur to them.

It used to be the other way, and it didn't work
well.  You had to 'epoch' number the kernel so it
wouldn't upgrade automatically.

> I would suspect that packages that have version
> numbers in the base name,
> like lsof-2.2 (or lsof-2.0.36) would require
> this kind of manual selection.
> Several scripting language packages appear to
> use this theme as well.

Bingo.

One of the primary Debian rules: do it the right
way, even if it doesn't seem to make as much
sense at first.  Do you really want the latest
version of ProgramX, if the syntax has changed
and some of your existing code will break?  No.

Seth




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[EUG-LUG:998] Re: CPAN the Debian way

[Seth Cohn]

There are a few

http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-perl@lists.debian.org/msg00281.html

dh-make-perl seems to be the better of the 2...

And we discussed it a bit on this list (check the
archives).

Not sure it's in Potato... you might need to add
it from testing...

Seth



--- Bob Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I find myself needing to install a CPAN module
> that is not, SFAIK,
> available prepackaged for Debian Potato.  The
> module is File::KGlob,
> and it's used by mp3tools.
> 
> On other Linux distros, installing from CPAN
> pretty much broke
> the distro's update process.
> 
> So what's the "right" way to install
> File::KGlob on my Potato box?
> 
> Thanks...
> 
> -- 
> Bob Miller  K
> kbobsoft software consulting
> http://kbobsoft.com
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 


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[EUG-LUG:988] Re: Greetings

[Seth Cohn]

Ron, Not sure I'll have time to do one on one
stuff, but I'm cc:ing the list, so maybe someone
can...

The meetings have been moving around, so you
might want to join the list and you'll get much
more help/time/etc...

The box should be fine for hosting stuff, and it
sounds like apache virtual host stuff, which is
pretty basic.  Try posting the http.conf file to
the list, and I'll bet someone can point out the
error.

Seth


--- Ron LeVine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Heya Seth,
> 
> Long time no see. Ever since the group got
> moved, I have lost track of the meetings. Oh
> well. 
> 
> I was wondering if you might have a bit of time
> to go over Apache configuration with me. I need
> to host several domains on my server and can't
> quite make it do it. I think I am missing
> something simple as I have apache working for
> the main site with no trouble.
> 
> Also, I am up for trying out debian if it would
> make it easier to do. The machine I am building
> the server on is a CyrixII-300 with 128Mb Ram
> and 4Gb Hard Drive. I am building a bigger one
> to replace it, but I am not there yet.
> 
> If you can help, great. If not, no biggy. I
> will just keep plugging away at it as Linux is
> really the only solution to use for this.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> Ron LeVine
>  
> 


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[EUG-LUG:959] Re: TMDA

[Seth Cohn]

You know, at EFN, we actively filters spam


But i like the idea of this TMDA... I wish the
idea was used by everyone...  I thought for a
long time about trust metric email... same idea
in general.


--- Bob Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anybody here hate spam?
> 
> Has anybody here tried TMDA, the Tagged Message
> Delivery Agent?  It's
> a mail filter that reduces spam by requiring
> unknown people to send a
> confirmation that they really really want to
> send you mail.
> 
>   http://software.libertine.org/tmda/
> 
> I haven't tried it yet, but I have a friend who
> swears by it.
> 
> Yesterday, I got 64 pieces of mail.  16 were
> spam.
> 
> -- 
> Bob Miller  K
> kbobsoft software consulting
> http://kbobsoft.com
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 


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[EUG-LUG:896] Re: Future is now! (drool!)

[Seth Cohn]

--- Larry Price <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Wow! I hadn't heard of Professor Cope, and his
> compositional macintosh
> but I can't say I'm that surprised.

I'm not surprised at all.  I've played with stuff
like that for a few years now.  I was (am?) on
the "midi perl" list for a while and was playing
with various Markov chain based little programs
and getting very interesting results with very
little effort.

Markov chains listen to a variety of (or even
one) input of data, and merely listen to the
sequwnce of words/notes/whatever, and build
tables that have probablities.  So if "Once upon"
is usually followed by "a", it can and will
generate "Once upon a" and then guess for
whatever often comes next from "upon a", maybe
often coming up with "Once upon a time," but
rarely coming with the "Once upon a mattress"...
etc.

In music, for example midi, it's possible to feed
a bunch of style songs and it will generate
reasonable sounding combos, and yet the 'science'
is very simple. 

No, it's not _great_ music, but for almost zero
music theory, it can sound quite cool.  Add in
more logic, teach it to recognize longer
patterns, and other musical ideas, and I'm not
surprised at all by the idea of a music program
generating music that "sounds like" someone
famous.

True creativity is a VASTLY different thing, and
no computer comes close to it.

Seth




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[EUG-LUG:818] Re: PLUG perl 6, fear the future ;-)

[Seth Cohn]

--- Larry Price <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So a bunch, well 8, of us went to see Randall
> Schwartz's presentation at
> this month's PLUG meeting.
> 
> Randall's presentation was very interesting,
> and he's a very dynamic
> speaker with a fairly good grasp of how to
> present complex topics.

Randal (one l) is a fun guy, and he wants to come
to Eugene in February, to speak about his
experience with Oregon's legal system (and the
computer crime law in particular).  He spoke at
UO about 6 months ago, but with the recent
'loss', it's all the more important to educate
people.

I can and will offer to host the event at EFN, we
should be fully ready for a speaking event at
that point.  I'd like to coordinate things with
other appropriate groups, and get some publicity,
etc, so this isn't just preaching to the choir...

Date to be determined...

We also need a good place to take Randal to get a
beer.

> that perl5 was intended to
> be able to be able to host a complete rewrite
> of rn in perl 

All programs eventually grow to read mail, perl
wanted to grow to read news :)

Seth



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[EUG-LUG:798] Usenet archive take 2...

[Seth Cohn]

New stuff was added to the Google Usenet
archives...

and one gem I just uncovered:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3955%40transfer.stratus.com&output=gplain

In which McElwaine is accused of being ME...

Too funny.  I never saw before.

Lots of other old bits I'm finding...

old flamewars with John Palmer
my selling a Vectrex and Atari cartridges...
my old posts on nyx, a Denver Free Net ala EFN

I'm gonna have to reread all of the old stuff I
put out there now, just to enjoy the memories...

On the Usenet, nothing ever dies, it's just
backed up on tape for decades. 

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[EUG-LUG:789] Re: Thursday trip to PDX

[Seth Cohn]

--- "Kahli R. Burke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Larry Price wrote:
> 
> >I'm planning on going to portland tomorrow, in
> fact I plan to ride with
> >Seth. See you all tomorrow.
> >
> OK,
>
> Well apparently Seth will be driving then. 

Or else, someone else will.  Anyone have a good
car for 5?  Mine will  squeeze 3 in the back, but
it's pretty not the best for that.

> meet the rest of us at the L&L (16th and
> Willamette) 4:30 tomorrow?  We 

L&L at 4:30 sounds good to me.



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[EUG-LUG:737] Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: January PLUG Meeting

[Seth Cohn]

I plan on attending this, as I want to meet
Randal in person also... and tell him I think the
Oregon Supreme Court sucks (grin).

Anyone else want to rideshare?

Leaving at 4:30/5pm last time worked well for us.



--- David Mandel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
>  MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT
> 
> The Portland Linux/Unix
> Group
>   will meet
>  7 PM Thursday Jan 3, 2001
>   at
>   Portland State University
> in the
> Smith Memorial Center
>  Room 294/296
>On the block bounded by
>SW Montgomery, SW Broadway (7th), SW
> Harrison, and SW Park (9th)
> 
> 
>  
>
**
> 
>PRESENTATION
> 
>   What is New in Perl 6
> by
> Randal L. Schwartz
>  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
>   Randal is an international recognized
> Perl hacker with
>   many credits to his name including such
> books as:
> 
>Learning Perl, November 1993
>Programming perl, January 1991
>Programming Perl, 2nd Edition,
> August 1996
>Learning Perl, 2nd Edition, July
> 1997
>Learning Perl on Win32 Systems,
> August 1997
>Learning Perl, 3rd Edition, July
> 2001
> 
> 
>  
>
**
> 
> 
> 
>   Agenda:
> 
>   7:00 - 7:30  Business
>We will discuss the status
> of our ongoing projects
>including the monthly hands
> on clinics, PLUG for
>Education, etc.
> 
>   7:30 - 8:30  Presentation
> 
>See above
> 
>   9:00 - ...  Beer
>   The Lucky
> Labrador Brewing Company
>   915 SE
> Hawthorne
> 
> 
> 
>   David
> Mandel
>   Chief
> Activist
>  
> Portland Linux/Unix Group
>   1440
> NE 59th
>  
> Portland, Oregon 97213
>   (360)
> 260-2066
>  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
>   P.S.  The Mid Willamette Valley Linux
> Users Group meets
> at 2 PM on first Saturday of
> the month at Peak Inc in
> Corvallis.
> See http://lug.peak.org/ for
> details.
> 
>   P.S.  The Eugene Linux Users Group
> meets regularly.
> See http://www.euglug.org for
> details.
> 
>   
>
==
>David Mandel, Product Manager  
> http://www.MicroSharp.com
>   Other Affliations
>David Mandel   
> http://www.DavidMandel.com
>Portland Linux/Unix Group  
> http://pdxLinux.org
>LinuxFund  
> http://LinuxFund.org
>   
>
==
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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[EUG-LUG:719] Re: Thursday Night Blues

[Seth Cohn]

Just to be clear:

Once EFN moves in the new digs on West Broadway,
EUGLUG will be welcome to use the space after 6pm
on Thursday nights, as well as weekend events
(I'd push for Sunday over Saturday events, or at
least not conflicting with EFN hours on
Saturday)...

I wish I could promise something during January,
but it's too hard with the move and all that
stuff...

We will be moved in as of January 31, so February
meetings onward would be welcome.

Seth




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[EUG-LUG:567] RE: variations on a theme

[Seth Cohn]

Hmmm... while I'm a fan of the I Ching on some
level, the relationship to Linux is iffy at best.

Ok ok... so it's binary Fine.

grinning,
Seth

P.S.  Does it take less time for a harddrive to
write a 0 than a 1?



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[EUG-LUG:525] Re: [PLUG-WEB] Eric Rayond interested

[Seth Cohn]

I can guarantee that EUGLUG would be interested in having ESR (and other people like 
RMS, Larry Wall, etc) come visit either Eugene
also, or else we'd have a largish caravan to a Portland held event...

Seth


- Original Message
From: Neil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 1:59 PM
Subject: [PLUG-WEB] Eric Rayond interested


>
> Okay, I have already heard back from Eric Raymond. He said I am
> *extremely* interested in coming out here (emphasis his).
>
> Neil
>
>
>

[EUG-LUG:522] On a professional note...

[Seth Cohn]

I've accepted the General Manager position at EFN.

Thanks to Larry and Patrick for letting me know about the job and answering questions 
about it...
and really to all of the LUG crew for the last 2 plus years, herding cats is a great 
skill building tool.


Looking for a Linux friendly ISP? I can pretty much guarantee that EFN is (not that it 
wasn't before, it was).

[EUG-LUG:473] Re: naive distro questions

[Seth Cohn]

--- Justin Bengtson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> here we go again.
> 
> so, redhat isn't the distro for me.  i don't
> like the RPM system (which also
> rules out mandrake and a host of other
> distros...)  debian just gives me
> headaches nowadays. 

Can I suggest you try out Connectiva
http://en.conectiva.com/

Uses RPM but also uses APT (so it's like Debian)

I haven't played with it, so I can't recommend
it, but it looks like it's worth a try...




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[EUG-LUG:466] Fwd: Please forward this to the Eug-LUG list. Thanks

[Seth Cohn]

--- Dragon Singer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 22:03:28 +
> 
>  Hi Seth,
>  Wayne K9DI es Sequoia here.  I'm still
> not able to post directly 
> to the Eug-LUG list so I would appreciate it if
> you would forward the 
> following to the list.. Tnx OM!
> 
>  Hi Gang,
>  Wayne K9DI es Sequoia here, I've been
> talking with my wife about 
> migrating her box to Linux in preparation for
> ditching WindBloze, but the 
> big stumbling block has been a printer that
> will work under Linux.  I've 
> beaten my head up against the wall trying to
> get our current printer (HP 
> 722c) working under Linux ( my box is out as
> the LPT1 seems to have gone to 
> be with the Lord).  So far no luck.  Can anyone
> suggest an affordable 
> printer that will work with Linux (CUPS)?
> 73
> de
> Wayne K9DI
> 
> Respectfully and Sincerely Yours,
> 
> Wayne M. Scace
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> LICQ# 315313
> FISTS# 4409
> QRP-L# 2313
> FPQRP-L# 217
> SOC# 452
> ARS # 1,082
> Zombie # 800
> 


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[EUG-LUG:452] Fw: [lug] OSDL is hiring

[Seth Cohn]

- Original Message - 
From: Matt Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 3:08 PM
Subject: [lug] OSDL is hiring


> The OSDL (Open Source Development Lap) is hiring:
> 
> 
>http://osdl.org/cgi-bin/eidetic.cgi?command=display&modulename=articles&query=available_jobs
> 
> Or, click the Jobs link on their main page:
> 
> http://osdl.org
> 
> 

[EUG-LUG:442] Shell humor...

[Seth Cohn]

As seen on debian-curiosa:

% make fire
Make: Don't know how to make fire. Stop.
% why not?
No match.
% gotta light?
No match.
% How's my lovemaking?
Unmatched '.
% "How would you rate Bush's incompetence?
Unmatched ".
% [Where is Jimmy Hoffa?
Missing ].
% [Where is my brain?
Missing ].
% ^How did the sex change^ operation go?
Modifier failed.
% ^How did the sex change operation go?
Bad substitute.
% If I had a ( for every $ Congress spent, what would I have?
Too many ('s.
% man: why did you get a divorce?
man:: Too many arguments.
% %blow
%blow: No such job.
% \(-
(-: Command not found.
% sh
$ PATH=pretending! /usr/ucb/which sense
no sense in pretending!
$ mkdir matter; cat >matter
matter: cannot create
% cd /tmp
% touch this; chmod 000 this
% ln -s /usr/bin/touch U
% U this
U: cannot touch this: no write permission
% rm meese-ethics
rm: meese-ethics nonexistent
% cd ~god
Unknown user: god.
% ar m God
ar: God does not exist
% make love
Make: Don't know how to make love. Stop.
% sleep with me
bad character
% ^What is saccharine?
Bad substitute.
% drink bottle: cannot open
opener: not found
% alias alias alias
alias: Too dangerous to alias that.
% cat catfood
cat: cannot open catfood
% cat "food in cans"
cat: can't open food in cans
% nice man woman
No manual entry for woman.
% man p***y
No manual entry for p***y.
% rm God
rm: God nonexistent
% ar r God
ar: creating God
% Unmatched ".
Unmatched ".
% write desert
desert is not logged on.
% man you
No manual entry for you.
% !bluemoon
bluemoon: Event not found.
% scan for <<"Arnold Schwarzenegger"^J^D
"Arnold Schwarzenegger": << terminator not found
% cat 'the can of tuna'
cat: cannot open the can of tuna
% rm Quayle-brains
rm: Quayle-brains nonexistent
% cat "door: paws too slippery"
cat: cannot open door: paws too slippery
% look into "my eyes"
look: cannot open my eyes
% lost
lost: not found
% make war
Make: Don't know how to make war. Stop.
% mkdir yellow_pages; cat > yellow_pages
yellow_pages: Is a directory
%touch me
%chmod 000 me
%touch me
touch: cannot touch me: permission denied
% ar x "my love life"
ar: my love life does not exist
% ar x "matey, the treasure"
ar: matey, the treasure does not exist
% talk Gorvachev@Kremlin
talk: Kremlin: Can't figure out network address.
% talk Comrade Khruchev
[Your party is not logged on]
make "bottle open"
make "heads or tails of all this"
make love
make mistake
make sense
man woman
man -kisses dog
% echo
'[q]sa[ln0=aln256%Pln256/snlbx]sb3135071790101768542287578439snlbxq'|dc
GET A LIFE!
% ping elvis.rice.edu | awk '{print substr($1,1,5), $2, $3}'
elvis is alive
% finger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Unknown host
% finger huge-keg-party@big-house
Unknown host
% make ' ' bang ' ' with gun
make: Fatal error: Don't know how to make target ` '

-- BUG! --

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[EUG-LUG:441] Fwd: Linux clinic

[Seth Cohn]

Someone contact him please and offer help?


--- Dan Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Subject: Linux clinic
> Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 00:52:46 -0800
> 
> Hi, I think we've met at a Linux clinic in the
> past. I was on the
> mailing list, but it got too busy. I now have a
> second-hand TI laptop
> that works and I'd like to get some (a lot of)
> help installing
> Debian. Last I heard, the clinic was at Mr. O's
> place. If that's
> still so, I need the address, or since I don't
> have a car, a ride
> from downtown Eugene, or a bus stop somewhere
> else, would be really
> welcome. Actually I need one or the other
> wherever it is. :)  Thanks
> much.
> 
> Dan Robinson  541-465-4790 
> 
> http://www.efn.org/~danrob/
> 
> Nobody's perfect; everybody's approaching
> optimum.
> 
> 


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[EUG-LUG:426] Finally back online

[Seth Cohn]

My cable modem's been out since Saturday.  Long Story short: complained and complained 
until
they replaced it, and then it still didn't work.  But now it does.  Finally!

Seth

[EUG-LUG:342] Re: Minutes from Tonight's Organizational Meeting

[Seth Cohn]

> And so ... www@, webdev@ ?? "right now, today" ;]

Current list of mailing lists... 
PLEASE NOTE SOMETIME NEXT WEEK I EXPECT THIS TO CHANGE,
however, subscribe now, and I will move you over to the new list.
(I'm thinking that making all mailing lists be euglug.org makes sense for domain
name/machine based reasons..., and will confirm that next week with Michelle
and Rob)

[EMAIL PROTECTED]behind the scenes, EUGLUG organization
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - private list for A.S. 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]SIG
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Tech Lunchs
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Created for Jim Darrough
[EMAIL PROTECTED]??
[EMAIL PROTECTED]SIG
[EMAIL PROTECTED]unused, SIG
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Politics
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Inter-LUG in Oregon communication, unused
[EMAIL PROTECTED]moderated version of main list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]low traffic, annoucement only
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   web development

to subscribe to any of these,  put -subscribe AFTER the list name, and it will 
subscribe
you, emailing you a confirmation notice.  You must reply to the notice to end up on 
the list.

Mailman is webbased, including nice archiving, etc, so next week, expect everything to 
shift.
This means you might want to wait on creating filters and so on.

[EUG-LUG:338] Re: Minutes from Tonight's Organizational Meeting

[Seth Cohn]

Right now, with qmail and ezmlm, anyone with postmaster access can do it.
With improved (read: latest version) qmailadmin, I believe sub-postmasters
can be allowed to do some things.

Currently, I'm the only one with the password, but that's an easy thing to change.

Moving lists is harder, but creating them is pretty easy at this point.

Seth



- Original Message - 
From: Bob Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 10:58 PM
Subject: [EUG-LUG:337] Re: Minutes from Tonight's Organizational Meeting


> Rob Hudson wrote:
> 
> > I'd be happy to.  In that end, I suggest we create (while we're
> > creating) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (or webdev@ or ontheweb@) for website
> > discussion.  Those willing to help contribute (even if it's telling me
> > what to do), sign up.
> 
> Seth, how do we create mailing lists right now today?  Can anybody do
> it, or does a chezgeekster have to do it?
> 
> -- 
> Bob Miller  K
> kbobsoft software consulting
> http://kbobsoft.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 

[EUG-LUG:310] Re: Group purpose clarification

[Seth Cohn]

> Please join us at the "Apolitical" Eugene LINUX User Group.

Kaplan, Apolitical?  Has hell frozen over yet?  This from one of the
few people I can count on to attack people and call them leftists?

> and MS excluded for obvious reasons) and no opinions or negative
> comments directed to other LUG's or individuals which we may or may
> not be in agreement with.

Kaplan, no negative comment or opinions?  Yes, Hell HAS frozen over.

Hey, James, why not call it the Rebel Linux group?  Oh wait, that was taken. :)

Will you PLEASE take a chill pill already?... and you wonder why you have such
a bad reputation...

your friend still,
Seth

[EUG-LUG:309] Re: An incomplete meeting agenda for tomorrow

[Seth Cohn]

It was part of a private conversation.  Mail can be used for more than just mailing 
lists.

I didn't ignore you.  I was already sending my email when I got yours.

- Original Message - 
From: Linux Rocks ! <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 7:49 PM
Subject: [EUG-LUG:306] Re: An incomplete meeting agenda for tomorrow


> funny... you ignore me when I say that... yet I dont remember seeing any 
> posts from kbob saying anything like that... you did that before, a few weeks 
> ago... couldnt be that your bias'd here? or is it an outlook thing?
> 
> Jamie
> 
> On Wednesday 28 November 2001 16:18, you wrote:
> > KBob made an great suggestion, a written agenda for the meeting, so people
> > can brainstorm and so on in the meantime... and stay focused at the meeting
> > itself.
> >
> > Proposed agenda (feel free to suggest items if it's something radically
> > different and not close to covered by any of the specifics below)
> >
> > Club Organization
> >  incorporate?
> >  dues and budget?
> >  officers?
> >
> > Please keep in mind that *all* of the above itself is questionable, and
> > part of why the meeting is being held: to make some decisions (or rather
> > REmake some decisions, as most of these have been discussed in the past a
> > few times... and for many reasons, we've passed on doing them.  One of the
> > main questions will be benefits to doing so.)
> >
> >  Activities
> >  Clinics - how often, which night?
> >  Presentations -Monthly?
> >  Special Events - details...
> >  K-12 project?
> >  Others
> >
> >  Meeting Space
> >  Candidate spaces
> >   EWEB
> >   U of O
> >   other?
> >
> >  Plan of Action
> >
> >  Other?
> >
> > Again, be there, be willing to commit time/energy/resources, and be
> > helpful. Or don't come.
> >
> > Stan's PC Training Center, 635 West7th,   6 PM
> > No PCs, no installs, not much tech, just organizational but vital...
> 
> 

[EUG-LUG:305] Re: An incomplete meeting agenda for tomorrow

[Seth Cohn]

Chris writes:
> * A mission statement
> * Concrete medium-term goals (1-year plan? 5-year plan?)
>  And then, yes, a
> * Plan of action specifically for achieving those goals within the
> specified time-frame(s)
>
> The mission statement as it is, without concrete goals in mind, is too
> open to interpretation, especially for a group with 100+ members, to
> expect consistant action to be taken on it by the group officers.

I think Ralph Zeller (way back in Feb 2001) addressed this (and related issues
we are discussing at this time), so I'm going to quote from his email...

The real question is if you were going to change the MISSION GOAL, what would you 
change it to?
I quite like that mission statement we have now (I think Rob Hudson wrote it).

"promote and exchange information about Linux, Unix and Open
 Source Software in Eugene, Oregon and surrounding cities. "

Our press kit lists it as "The Eugene Linux Users Group presents a Linux Demo Day as 
part of it's ongoing mission of education and
advocacy of the open source Linux Operating System. "

Education, Advocacy, Promote, Exchange I don't see how you can get too far from 
those
Concrete goals are hard to define for those... it's more an 'as needed' basis... and 
making it all possible.
K12, Business solutions, all of those projects, are really under that same banner...

Seth



From: Ralph Zeller
Subject: [EUG-LUG:179] Re: A call to action (fwd)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:13:56 -0800

That's an interesting question.  Are we an organization at all, or a
collection of anarchists?  ;)

It depends on our purpose and mission.  As stated on the website,
"The Eugene Unix and GNU/Linux User Group (EUGLUG) is a volunteer group
 whose goal is to promote and exchange information about Linux, Unix and Open
 Source Software in Eugene, Oregon and surrounding cities. "

Based on that expressed mission, I'd say we're closer to a 501(c)(4) type
of group.  Not that it matters much, since we're not earning any income,
and not receiving any donations that I know of.

Apologies in advance for spamming the list with-->
Excerpts from Internal Revenue Code SECTION  501.(c)-
 (3) Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation,
 organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable,
 scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational
 purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports
 competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the
 provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention
 of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of
 which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual,
 no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on
 propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except
 as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not
 participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or
 distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or
 in opposition to) any candidate for public office.

 (4) --
  (A) Civic leagues or organizations not organized for profit but
  operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare, or
  local associations of employees, the membership of which is
  limited to the employees of a designated person or persons in a
  particular municipality, and the net earnings of which are
  devoted exclusively to charitable, educational, or recreational
  purposes.

  (B) Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to an entity unless no part
  of the net earnings of such entity inures to the benefit of any
  private shareholder or individual.

 (5) Labor, agricultural, or horticultural organizations.

 (6) Business leagues, chambers of commerce, real-estate boards, boards
 of trade, or professional football leagues (whether or not
 administering a pension fund for football players) not organized for
 profit and no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit
 of any private shareholder or individual.

 (7) Clubs organized for pleasure, recreation, and other nonprofitable
 purposes, substantially all of the activities of which are for such
 purposes and no part of the net earnings of which inures to the
 benefit of any private shareholder.

[EUG-LUG:300] An incomplete meeting agenda for tomorrow

[Seth Cohn]

Just thought of  one:
 
>  Activities
>  Clinics - how often, which night?
>  Presentations -Monthly?
>  Special Events - details...
>  K-12 project?
>  Others
 

Mailing List changes

[EUG-LUG:299] An incomplete meeting agenda for tomorrow

[Seth Cohn]

KBob made an great suggestion, a written agenda for the meeting, so people
can brainstorm and so on in the meantime... and stay focused at the meeting itself.

Proposed agenda (feel free to suggest items if it's something radically different and
not close to covered by any of the specifics below)

Club Organization
 incorporate?
 dues and budget?
 officers?

Please keep in mind that *all* of the above itself is questionable, and part of why 
the meeting
is being held: to make some decisions (or rather REmake some decisions, as most of 
these
have been discussed in the past a few times... and for many reasons, we've passed on 
doing
them.  One of the main questions will be benefits to doing so.)

 Activities
 Clinics - how often, which night?
 Presentations -Monthly?
 Special Events - details...
 K-12 project?
 Others

 Meeting Space
 Candidate spaces
  EWEB
  U of O
  other?

 Plan of Action

 Other?

Again, be there, be willing to commit time/energy/resources, and be helpful.
Or don't come. 

Stan's PC Training Center, 635 West7th,   6 PM 
No PCs, no installs, not much tech, just organizational but vital...

[EUG-LUG:295] Re: plea for direction...

[Seth Cohn]

Justin wrote:
> can we stop all of this bickering about (E)(EUG)LUG's history?  who cares?
> it's juvenile posturing best left in 6th grade.

Just to be clear, I'm not bickering... or posturing, or anything else.  James is my 
friend,
still.  I don't have a side, or anything else.  I just wish that some of the 
'attitude' would go away.
It's tiresome, and judging from the email I've gotten/read about it, it's 
couterproductive to anyone listening.

> (E)(EUG)LUG needs some direction (i probably do too...)  i hope that is what
> will be discussed on thursday, because the intent of the thursday meeting
> was never really clear to me.  i want to help and contribute, but i don't
> even have the faintest idea where to start here.

Come to the meeting.  All will be made clear.

> i enjoyed the PLUG meeting i attended.  they seemed to have an idea of what
> the hell they were doing.  it seems like we don't have a clue.  is the LUG
> simply this mailing list now?

No.  That is one of the points of having a meeting about all of this, to discuss
what and where and how EUGLUG is and will do stuff...

Yes, questions should be posted here, and I'm not aware too many people being
turned away from help (keep in mind that often one person might say RTFM,
but often someone pipes up with a more useful answer...).  I'm concerned that
you are percieving this list as being really unfriendly toward newbies, which
would be a problem if it is (I'm not sure it is though).

> also, this mailing list is way too fluid to be used for announcements.  i
> vote for a web page (not wiki) where announcements are posted (and not the
> same ones from a year ago.  team EUGLUG has done @9.5 years of research, not
> 6...)  i'll administer it if i have to.

I'm sure Rob Hudson would love some volunteer help if you want to help with content...

[EUG-LUG:284] If you can't say anything nice....

[Seth Cohn]

 No, we may NOT continue... this is for Thursday's meeting to be
discussed...
 So take a chill pill already James...

> From: kg7fu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Ok, since Justin and Seth have seconded my motion, I move to
> > vote on the officers.

Denied.  This isn't Robert's Rules of Order, it's a dictatorship with
anarchist
overtones... or in other words: it's a meritocracy, just like most of the
rest of
the open source movement.  See ESR's writing for more philosophy on that...
But regardless of what people thing about it, the truth is that people who
produce lead.  People who make noise don't.  People who make noise and
produce
get a reputation like ESR, RMS, or god forbid, myself, on a lesser scale...

> > There is a question by some on the BSD/GPL "issue". Let me clarify MY
> > position. When we re-formed the group, the purposes was to promote Linux
> > and educate ourselves and help others "cath the bug". Some of us have
> > used the group as a vehicle to pronote BSD, GPL and various & sundry
> > non-Linux topics, goals and left-wing liberal agendas. IMHO this is not
> > what we're about and if YOU want that then a) go to those existing
groups,
> > b) form a new group or c) we'll splinter and form a new group. In the
case
> of
> > "c", the name, basis and purpose of ELUG should remain to promote Linux
> > and assist the community generally where Linux is concerned, NOT to pump
> > the GPL thing, wave the BSD banner, etc. Those things DO have a place in
> > our group, but the are not central to our basis and purpose, nor should
> they
> > be promoted to the point of splintering the group or watering down the
> basis
> > and purpose

James, you speak *only* for yourself.  And besides which, EUGLUG (to use the
full
name) is not about BSD or GPL or even Linux... it's about the user group,
and anything
which supports that... It's been Eugene Unix GNU/Linux User Group for a few
years now.
That means that so long as the focus is Eugene/Springfield (the Spngfld is
implied), the
topic matter is anything about Unix GNU or Linux, and it's about
using/support/etc,
it's a fair topic.  Don't argue the ELUG point, the group changed names a
while back, with
full agreement of active, vocal members and has used the short form only
when not corrected or for simplicity sake.

Now take a seat, and be quiet, or get ejected.  You know Jim will pull the
plug
on your connection if I ask him to (grin).

> > So..may we continue with the elections?

No we may not.  Thursday.  My saying seconded was support for the idea, NOT
an endorsement of your methods.  Any further discussion you want to have
about this, message me privately.

I want to thank Kahli for his words:
> With due respect to everyone on this list, the
> postings I have seen lately do not reflect the spirit of this list, the
> open-source community, or Linux.  The audience for this list extends
> beyond the small group of people who post regularly, and I think it
> casts our community in a poor light when the bandwidth of this list is
> filled with bickering, regardless of the intention of the poster.

He said it FAR better than I could.

Should anyone be interested in the 'president' job (and pipe down you
anarchists
who want everyone to be president...), keep in mind, it means dealing with
all
of these people and still getting things done... You don't have to be
crazy(haired?)
but it helps.

Thursday, 6pm, Stan's aka PC Training Center, West 7th St.  Be there, be
ready to
commit your time and energy to something, be helpful, or don't be there.

Seth

[EUG-LUG:277] Re: say it ain't so

[Seth Cohn]

> http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-7996444.html?tag=lthd
>
> AT&T gets their @home from Excite, right?  Does this mean that all of
> us @home subscribers might have dead cable lines Friday?  Yow!

No, I got a snail mail from AT&T, promising that service would continue...
they would have to change the backend if they can't arrange the purchase.
Either way, new terms of services (of couse :( )... Email address changes
regardless, but I never use that email, so I don't care about that.

[EUG-LUG:263] Re: derned emails keep coming!!

[Seth Cohn]

Different mailing lists on different servers, using different programs

I don't have activism or most of the other lists set to reply-to list
because
while it's commonplace, it's actaully a bad idea (for many reasons...)

Personally, I'd love to drop ezmlm from euglug.net, whatever efn uses
(majordomo?)
and put in a nice clean mailman set of archives and lists...

I'm looking up Postnuke forum <->mailing list software right now for PLUG to
use...
and if it looks good, we might also use that... I dunno, just a possiblity.

Seth


- Original Message -
From: Ben Barrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 4:21 PM
Subject: [EUG-LUG:260] Re: derned emails keep coming!!


> As a technical aside, (and I haven't paid any mind to KMail in
> particular, which
>  you seem to be using, jk) I've been using mozilla mail (ya, the new
> 0.9.6 release now) and in the message filters, one of the filter options
> is "To: or Cc:" instead of the default "Cc:", but of course there's also
> rules for the subject, headers, or any message content...
> It just strikes me that euglug's main list has some rules set by the
> mailer that normalize everyone's list realities, which don't [yet] exist
> for the activism list  wouldn't we want all mail being forwarded by
> the list server to have some kind of standardization?  Sorry I haven't
> run  list before and don't know the ezlm (?) program mentioned earlier.
> It certainly ups the tension when there are specific instructions
> represented by one member, though.
> There's got to be a better way (a bitter way?)... And how about those
> MTA failures?
> fun, eh?  Maybe I'll save up all my daily emotional
> tensions, and blurt them out at the next user whose computer acts
> quirky, lord knows mine never does!! 
> btw, I am compliant today.
>
> kg7fu (by way of kg7fu ) wrote:
>
> >...
> >Please guys, do not cc activism...cc indivuduals instead...
> >
> > - jk
> >
>
>

[EUG-LUG:258] Location for Organizational Meeting - This Thursday

[Seth Cohn]

Stan's.

It works, it's simple, he's offered it to us.  For a discussion meeting it's
fine, and I don't expect we will meet for too long, or have too many people.
(if so, we'll deal with that event...)

Thurs 6PM, at Stan's.

Any problems with that?

[EUG-LUG:250] Re: ORDER! [WAS EUG-LUG:239] Re: EUGLUG organizational meeting NEXT Thursday (11/29)

[Seth Cohn]

I'll second it.  I would be GLAD to retire and become Past President. (grin)

KBob is my first choice in fact

As for:
> but this business of "Seth is the
> best guy for all jobs" is bunk.

I have pretty much being saying that myself for a while... and said so to
Jim Darrough
last night in fact...

re: "Nobody wanted the job" is bull-crap.
I have a few times attempted to get some people to step up and 'take over'.
So far,
to not much avail.  History on request

Seth

- Original Message -
From: kg7fu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 10:34 AM
Subject: [EUG-LUG:244] ORDER! [WAS EUG-LUG:239] Re: EUGLUG organizational
meeting NEXT Thursday (11/29)


> Bit 'o history
>
> When Darrough and Kaplan resurrected the Eugene Linux
> Users Group, Kaplan became de facto president and El Jeffe.
>
> Cohn, in a bloodless coup, stole the tri-corner newspaper
> cap and imaginary gavel (Only Kaplan posseses the REAL
> gavel deal). In fact, it was an e-mail SNAFU by which I found
> out I was not supposed to be talking to the public and corporate
> sectors about Linux anymore. "Nobody wanted the job" is bull-crap.
>
> We, sans Cohn and probably everyone at EFN, had grand plans
> for ELUG and none of them were even slightly close to BSD,
> pumping GPL or stuff like that the original basis and purpose was
> to spread the word, amass a knowledge base and help thy fellow
> PC enthusiast. Seems a bit more sinister and weird now, eh?
>
> About 2 years ago (check the archives) we had arguments pertaining
> to organizing ELUG. I defer to those arguments pro and con and
> hereby present a motion to defer organizational discussion until such time
> that a reliable, knowledgable, personable and stable(?) individual or
> panel can be installed as El Jeffe, etc and organizational skills, etc
> be honed and displayed for our general perusal.
>
> Now, for something completely different
>
> I nominate new-guy-in-town-sorta KBob, El Jeffe, with Bob Crandell,
> Veep and Larry, Ben or Ed, Secretary. Seth should share Technical
> Issues and Intelligence with, say Rob and maybe a younger member,
> as a panel. We should have a Corporate Interface position, preferably
> with non-retail, non-gasoline sales experience (Crandell?) and an
> Information Officer to propagate pamphlets, impress the press and amuse
> the news. Jaime and at least one other should cover the newsgroups &
> mail lists.
>
> Further, I motion we carry these positions until such time as
difficulties,
> personal or professional issues or traitorus acts present themselves or
> one year whichever comes first, for each office. At that time we will
appoint
> a panel of 4-6 to nominate officers.
>
> I'm not promoting "Robert's Rules", but this business of "Seth is the
> best guy for all jobs" is bunk.


 I'm sure he is busy enough with outside
> projects as well to carry this motley crew through growing pains while
> retaining his famous "objectivity". No offense to Mr. Cohn, he's a great
> person, but if we're going to do this, let's do it democratically as
> possible, eh?
>
> Have we any seconds to the motion?
>
> James Kaplan
>
> On Tuesday 27 November 2001 03:14, Sum Yung Guy wrote:
>
> > (So far, President Seth has no opposition, even if
> > his election is under auspices suspicious - nobody else wanted the job
> > when Seth volunteered).
> > Because I plan to attend, I'll note that I have room for a
> > passenger if driving is required to get to the meeting.
>
> _
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>

[EUG-LUG:222] Re: Jamie

[Seth Cohn]

Patrick wrote:
> >Please mail me Jamie.
> >
>
> Is there a MIME-type for that?  And wouldn't the attachment be rather
large?

Well, that's a good rumor to start: Yeah, I hear Jamie's attachment is
rather large.

(Hmm, sounds like WAY too many spam messages about enlarging)

Of course, the obvious virus scanner jokes will happen then too.

And Jamie isn't a MIME-type, he talks.

[EUG-LUG:215] EUG-LUG:213] Jamie

[Seth Cohn]

 We tried to stuff him into the floppy drive, but this lizard kept sticking
 out.  Sorry.
 
 > Please mail me Jamie.
 >
 >  - jk

[EUG-LUG:214] Organizational Meeting This Thursday

[Seth Cohn]

 I was just going to post a reminder...  thanks!
Any location IN town for this meeting?  Parking is a must (or else I might
volunteer my place)
 
 Seth
> - Original Message -
> From: Bob Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 4:27 PM
> Subject: [EUG-LUG:208] Organizational Meeting This Thursday
> 
> 
> > Eug-luggers --
> >
> > I wanted to remind everybody that this Thursday is the organizational,
> > non-clinic meeting.  Do we have a place to meet yet?  Our house is
> > still available.
> >
> > --
> > Bob Miller  K
> > kbobsoft software consulting
> > http://kbobsoft.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> 

[EUG-LUG:210] Re: mailing lists

[Seth Cohn]

> Also, I would like to see a wearables eug-lug list created, if Seth would
> be so kind. The local wearables folks could use this list to blabber
> endlessly about a subject most eug-lug subscribers seem to hate, without
> annoying them.

Created... you are the 'owner' of it, Chris.  Have fun! (it's an ezmlm list,
read docs for
it for what you can do... let me know if you need help)

list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] to join.

> Does anyone have opinions to offer pro/con on the creation of a
> euglugwear list? Does anyone like/hate the name euglugwear?

Yeah, sounds like Nike.  Bleh.