Re: Ice
In a message dated 3/27/2001 9:53:00 PM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Here's something to chew on. As you know, I've been intrigued by the prospect > of mining ice and water on Europa, but had a lot of trouble figuring out how > to make it profitable. What if... Breaking out my trusty knife and fork of Devil's advocacy, I see the following issues with mining Europan water-ice. > Humans need water to live. Travelers beyond our system will need water. > Transporting water from Earth all the way "out there" will be expensive, not > only in money, but in the energy needed to carry it. Water is critical to > survival. Anyone disagree with that? Nope. Except that travelers would hypothetically be able to recycle water very efficiently, with water purification devices and / or simple boiling with solar energy. Due to the lack of atmosphere, exposed surfaces heat very rapidly in space (if within a few AUs of the sun, that is). More distant solar heating could perhaps be provided with giant-scale lenses and mirrors. Currently, NASA has technology to recycle water from human waste. Presuming a space-faring colony (there long enough to have people dying on a regular basis) would be in space too long to worry about niceities of burial, you could likely get quite a bit of water from a corpse as well. I'd imagine a 150 pound man would have about 110 pounds of water in him. > Our knowledge of Europa suggests that it consists of an ice mantle perhaps > several kilometers thick, with an ocean of liquid water, yes H2O, underneath. > Water is heavy and wiggly. But what about carving out chunks of ice like the > Eskimo do to make igloos, Whoops! Problem one: Eskimoes (more properly 'Inuit') don't make houses out of ice. First, they use a sort of dense snow, and second, they don't make igloos anymore. They all live in houses these days. Fact is, it's getting damned hard to retain traditional skills in Native communities, even up in Bush Alaska. All problems of pedantism aside, however... boosting it into an orbit, collecting it in great > masses, Why not just shoot it there with mass drivers? A mass driver works by magnetically propelling an item along a rail, for several kilometers. Works well in a vacuum. Of course, water is not magnetic, but 'packaged' ice could be fitted out with magnetic particles. and towing it with sail ships to rendesvous points "out there" as > needed? If you have solar sails, why bother with water ice? The best reason for masses of water wouldn't be for survival. A small sufficiency would do. Fuel? If you have a solar sail, it is propelled either with solar wind directly, or by photons energizing a sail to power an ion drive. Again, it's extremely efficient, and the ions can come from practically anything. Fuel for chemical drives? You only need a chemical rocket engine if you're fooling around with high-speed manuevers, atmospheric diving and escaping, and so forth. If you're up in deep space, it's sufficient to simply make up in numbers of automated solar sails, what you lack in individual efficiency. It would be collected for storage by starships or even left frozen to > be defrosted as needed. Imagine a starship towing a huge block of water ice > and carving off what it needs as it needs, thus obviating the need for huge > water storage tanks on board. Last issue: Europa isn't the only place in the solar system besides Earth with water. As I understand it, water ice is relatively common in asteroids and chondrites (amalgams of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and other basic organic chemicals). Chondrites are fairly common in the neighborhood of Jupiter / Saturn. So, your ice blocks are already up there, if they are needed. Last, best reason I can think of for a mass of water ice? Terraforming. In that case, it might work to, as Gail suggests, lift millions of tons of ice from Europa (presumeably because it would be the most economical place to find it, not the only place), drag it from Jupiter by solar sail, and then drop it on Mars, and send the solar sail back for another load. Last, best reason I can think of to bother with Europa, in the absence of a need for large masses of water ice? Life. An alternate life-system would be very compelling, and possibly profitable, reason to explore and exploit Europa. You'd need one, considering the distance, hardship, isolation, and hard radiation all around. > OK, folks, kick this one around, and > Watch the skies! > Gail Leatherwood I'm kicking, while I'm watching. Don't laugh. It's not easy! -- John Harlow Byrne == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice
Except for the fact that you have to contend with Jupiter's enormous gravity well (far more difficult to get out of than Earth's) as well as Europa's gravity (roughly equal to our moon's) not to mention the killer Jovian radiation belts... Sorry, but I forsee comet wranglers putting you out of business before you even get started. Jayme Lynn Blaschke ___ "The Dust" coming April 2001 in THE ANT-MEN OF TIBET, AND OTHER STORIES from Big Engine http://www.bigengine.co.uk/index.htm Blaschke Home Realm http://www.vvm.com/~caius >>> "Gail & Roberta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 3/28/01 12:53 AM >>> Here's something to chew on. As you know, I've been intrigued by the prospect of mining ice and water on Europa, but had a lot of trouble figuring out how to make it profitable. What if... Humans need water to live. Travelers beyond our system will need water. Transporting water from Earth all the way "out there" will be expensive, not only in money, but in the energy needed to carry it. Water is critical to survival. Anyone disagree with that? Our knowledge of Europa suggests that it consists of an ice mantle perhaps several kilometers thick, with an ocean of liquid water, yes H2O, underneath. Water is heavy and wiggly. But what about carving out chunks of ice like the Eskimo do to make igloos, boosting it into an orbit, collecting it in great masses, and towing it with sail ships to rendesvous points "out there" as needed? It would be collected for storage by starships or even left frozen to be defrosted as needed. Imagine a starship towing a huge block of water ice and carving off what it needs as it needs, thus obviating the need for huge water storage tanks on board. OK, folks, kick this one around, and Watch the skies! Gail Leatherwood (u are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice
>> "Gail & Roberta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - 3/28/01 6:43 PM >>> Oh, well, Byrne, Blaschke, & Co. have convinced me that selling ice to passing starships probably won't work. Rats! I thought I was on to something, but maybe next time. At least I'm keeping some of you entertained! It might work, but you're looking at the wrong market. It's like the microbrew beers -- they weren't satisfied with local success, tried to go nation-wide and went bust. Ice/water mining could be lucrative as a fuel source/natural resource for colonies/bases, but only in the local area. It'd be too expensive to escape Jupiter's gravity well, but set up shop on Ganymede or Callisto (well out of the radiation belts) and you can supply all the fuel anyone needs for jaunting around the Jovian system, air and water for bases and reactors, even refuling for ships heading back to Earth. That'd certainly be more cost effective than chasing after asteroids or meteors, but then Jupiter is a unique situation (although much the same setup could be expected to develop in the Saturn/Uranus/Neptune systems). Jayme Lynn Blaschke ___ "The Dust" coming April 2001 in THE ANT-MEN OF TIBET, AND OTHER STORIES from Big Engine http://www.bigengine.co.uk/index.htm Blaschke Home Realm http://www.vvm.com/~caius (u are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice
-Original Message-From: Gail & Roberta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 4:55 PMSubject: Ice Oh, well, Byrne, Blaschke, & Co. have convinced me that selling ice to passing starships probably won't work. Rats! I thought I was on to something, but maybe next time. At least I'm keeping some of you entertained! Watch the skies! Gail Leatherwood Well, the thing is that you're trying to sell one of the most plentiful substances in the Solar System -- it's literally the equivalent of selling iceboxes to Eskimos. (I can't see selling the stuff to anyone on Ganymede or Callisto, either -- after all, they have lots more ice than Europa -- although I can see a possibility of Europan ice being used to resupply human colonies on Io, assuming anyone ever decides to colonize that Godforsaken place). If you're really looking for a valuable Europan commodity, consider the obvious -- native Europan life, which might very well be biologically unique enough to have biological and medical uses of its own. (While I can't say too much about this for fear of giving away part of a future piece I'm working on, one point brought up at the Europa Focus Group I attended in January was that -- on a world where microbial life may have been evolving for billions of years without ever having access to the huge Earthly energy source of photosynthesis -- Europan germs may have evolved some really unusual energy-collection mechanisms. Such germs on Earth would have been quickly crowded out and exterminated by competition from our much more vigorous photosynthesis-fueled organisms.) Bruce Moomaw
Re: Ice
In a message dated 3/28/2001 4:08:09 PM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > It might work, but you're looking at the wrong market. It's like the > microbrew beers -- they weren't satisfied with local success, tried to go > nation-wide and went bust. Ice/water mining could be lucrative as a fuel > source/natural resource for colonies/bases, but only in the local area. It'd > be too expensive to escape Jupiter's gravity well, but set up shop on > Ganymede or Callisto (well out of the radiation belts) and you can supply all > the fuel anyone needs for jaunting around the Jovian system, air and water > for bases and reactors, even refuling for ships heading back to Earth. That'd > certainly be more cost effective than chasing after asteroids or meteors, but > then Jupiter is a unique situation (although much the same setup could be > expected to develop in the Saturn/Uranus/Neptune systems). Jeremy, Gail... let's wrap our minds around this one a bit more. Considering that from what we can currently determine, water ice is about the only valuable thing in the Jovian system. How to make it profitable? I still maintain that vast quantities of water ice are only useful for terraforming. Radiation is clearly a problem, however. I feel that the gravity could be accounted for, simply by blasting more fuel, of which Europa has plenty. Ergo, Europa might be 'workable' with a highly automated colony, with a skeleton 'caretaker' crew, buried under the ice. Consider: the job of the crew and automation, if ice-mining is the foray of the day, might be to 1) mine the ice, 2) process it, and 3) blast it into orbit. If we consider that economics (value) is ultimately a reflection of the costs of time x labor, things change. If everything is automated, the labor input is nearly null, because you can manufacture robots locally. Time would also not be as much of a concern, if you are away from Earth's 'economic' well, where time and labor is such a commodity. In other words, if it takes longer to get the ice, so what? You don't have to pay anyone (or, very few persons). Capital investment is nearly zero, because so much of it can be locally manufactured. Here's another concept: why not boost the ice up with a bolo-lift? There is a theoretical construct which suggests that the centrifugal force generated by a massive bolo could lift packages from a surface, and kick them into orbit. That is, basically an immense cable with weights at either end... it revolves around a central axis, which is itself in orbit. As the cable revolves, one end of the cable goes up to orbit, while the other end of the cable goes down for another load. Voila, cost effective ice boosting. With such an arrangement, clearly, you would need a local skeleton crew to adjust the cable weights and speed, to maintain efficiency, particularly considering the gravity fluctuations inherent in the Jovian system. Now, send your 10 ton ice balls around Jupiter, to pick up some speed in a gravity assist. Slingshot them towards Mars. Yes, yes, it will take a long time to get there, but so what? You're terraforming Mars, after all, and it will take awhile. What you might acheive is a 'pearl string' of Europan ice, shuttling towards Mars. Presume that each pearl is a 10 ton ice-ball. 100 balls a day, about 35,000 balls a year. Therefore, 350,000 tons of Euopan ice a year, for each bolo. The balls might simply be allowed to drop into Mar's gravity well, raining 10 ton ice balls into the atmosphere. Since there's only 10 tons or so to each, most of the ice would evaporate into the atmosphere. So, after a 2-3 year wait, your first ice ball would hit Mars. And, they'd keep coming. The advantage of Europan Ice? 1) Advantage of location... the Jovian system remains in constant position relative to Mars; a comet moves, and it would be difficult to set up a stable mining system there, since your 'target' is constantly moving. 2) Predictability. You know you can send 'X' numbers of ice balls, to arrive at 'X' date. It's unclear with a comet. I can tell you from my experience in law... predictability is half of what businessmen desire. 3) Small ice balls, rather than a giant comet crashing into Mars. 4) Constructive use of Jovian gravity. 5) Near limitless supply. 6) It's a lot safer. If you mine 100,000 tons of ice from a comet, it might change the gravitational spin, flipping the entire comet, causing catastrophe. Comets are inherently unstable anyway, especially as they near the sun. Commentary? -- John Harlow Byrne == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice
In a message dated 3/28/2001 5:01:01 PM Alaskan Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > If you're really looking for a valuable Europan commodity, consider the > obvious -- native Europan life, which might very well be biologically unique > enough to have biological and medical uses of its own. (While I can't say > too much about this for fear of giving away part of a future piece I'm > working on, one point brought up at the Europa Focus Group I attended in > January was that -- on a world where microbial life may have been evolving > for billions of years without ever having access to the huge Earthly energy > source of photosynthesis -- Europan germs may have evolved some really > unusual energy-collection mechanisms. Such germs on Earth would have been > quickly crowded out and exterminated by competition from our much more > vigorous photosynthesis-fueled organisms.) Let's consider a third alternative: if there is no native Europan life, then it's a giant swimming pool with no 'guests'. No reason that you couldn't then seed it with designer-gene microbes, such as Archaea or whatnot. The inquirious mind then demands: what can Archaea or designer-gene transplants do, that would make them so valuable as to justify an entire colony to support them? I respond: anything you like. Since there would be no predation, you could load up such microbes with all sorts of redundant characteristics, which would not be a disadvantage to them, but would be an advantage to the human microbe farmer. In other words, the solar system's largest petri dish. -- John Harlow Byrne == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice
I'm not sure what sort of plotline you are looking at, but if you are looking for an excuse to place permanant citizens on Europa, there is an alternative to mining, as there are certianly other profitable enterprises out there for consideration. For instance, the same aspect of Europa which both intrigues and causes problems for this group is the fact that anything interesting is probably buried under about 10 km of ice. That same fact could be attractive to fururistic smugglers, perhaps discovering a nice pre-dug hole into the underground ocean left behind by early ice-pickers ;). Or maybe some eccentric furure economic powerhouse ( individual or corporate ) has something they don't want to be out in the open ( even to far-range off-planet telescopes ), maybe this something needs a large body of cold liquid On Wed, 28 Mar 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > In a message dated 3/28/2001 5:01:01 PM Alaskan Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > If you're really looking for a valuable Europan commodity, consider the > > obvious -- native Europan life, which might very well be biologically > unique > > enough to have biological and medical uses of its own. (While I can't say > > too much about this for fear of giving away part of a future piece I'm > > working on, one point brought up at the Europa Focus Group I attended in > > January was that -- on a world where microbial life may have been evolving > > for billions of years without ever having access to the huge Earthly energy > > source of photosynthesis -- Europan germs may have evolved some really > > unusual energy-collection mechanisms. Such germs on Earth would have been > > quickly crowded out and exterminated by competition from our much more > > vigorous photosynthesis-fueled organisms.) > > Let's consider a third alternative: if there is no native Europan life, then > it's a giant swimming pool with no 'guests'. No reason that you couldn't > then seed it with designer-gene microbes, such as Archaea or whatnot. > > The inquirious mind then demands: what can Archaea or designer-gene > transplants do, that would make them so valuable as to justify an entire > colony to support them? I respond: anything you like. Since there would be > no predation, you could load up such microbes with all sorts of redundant > characteristics, which would not be a disadvantage to them, but would be an > advantage to the human microbe farmer. > > In other words, the solar system's largest petri dish. > > -- John Harlow Byrne > == > You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ > > == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: Ice
The only thing that will be truly interesting about Europa will be life, if any. The oceans of Europa are low in energy; any life there will have to be enormously energy-efficient. Studying such life could be extremely profitable. There could be a cutthroat competition by energy businesses to explore the oceans of Europa; manned submersibles? And in an ocean buried beneath ten miles of ice, who would know if your competitor's research vessels met with "accidents?" Posit two extraordinary discoveries; first, there is life on Europa, and second, that life is either enormously energy efficient OR that life has tapped into a hitherto unknown energy source. In either case, there would be money to be made. Assume that the second discovery is not generally known. Now you have the stage set for a secret battle between a few very powerful, very unscrupulous organizations. I might just write it myself. -Original Message- From: Nathan T. Schomer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 11:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Ice I'm not sure what sort of plotline you are looking at, but if you are looking for an excuse to place permanant citizens on Europa, there is an alternative to mining, as there are certianly other profitable enterprises out there for consideration. For instance, the same aspect of Europa which both intrigues and causes problems for this group is the fact that anything interesting is probably buried under about 10 km of ice. That same fact could be attractive to fururistic smugglers, perhaps discovering a nice pre-dug hole into the underground ocean left behind by early ice-pickers ;). Or maybe some eccentric furure economic powerhouse ( individual or corporate ) has something they don't want to be out in the open ( even to far-range off-planet telescopes ), maybe this something needs a large body of cold liquid On Wed, 28 Mar 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > In a message dated 3/28/2001 5:01:01 PM Alaskan Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > If you're really looking for a valuable Europan commodity, consider the > > obvious -- native Europan life, which might very well be biologically > unique > > enough to have biological and medical uses of its own. (While I can't say > > too much about this for fear of giving away part of a future piece I'm > > working on, one point brought up at the Europa Focus Group I attended in > > January was that -- on a world where microbial life may have been evolving > > for billions of years without ever having access to the huge Earthly energy > > source of photosynthesis -- Europan germs may have evolved some really > > unusual energy-collection mechanisms. Such germs on Earth would have been > > quickly crowded out and exterminated by competition from our much more > > vigorous photosynthesis-fueled organisms.) > > Let's consider a third alternative: if there is no native Europan life, then > it's a giant swimming pool with no 'guests'. No reason that you couldn't > then seed it with designer-gene microbes, such as Archaea or whatnot. > > The inquirious mind then demands: what can Archaea or designer-gene > transplants do, that would make them so valuable as to justify an entire > colony to support them? I respond: anything you like. Since there would be > no predation, you could load up such microbes with all sorts of redundant > characteristics, which would not be a disadvantage to them, but would be an > advantage to the human microbe farmer. > > In other words, the solar system's largest petri dish. > > -- John Harlow Byrne > == > You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ > > == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice
Oh, please do! I'm not devious enough to properly expand your thesis, but it sounds intriguing! I can see a good movie out of it, too! Watch the skies! Gail Leatherwood - Original Message - From: "Guy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 8:30 AM Subject: RE: Ice > > The only thing that will be truly interesting about Europa will be life, if > any. The oceans of Europa are low in energy; any life there will have to be > enormously energy-efficient. Studying such life could be extremely > profitable. There could be a cutthroat competition by energy businesses to > explore the oceans of Europa; manned submersibles? And in an ocean buried > beneath ten miles of ice, who would know if your competitor's research > vessels met with "accidents?" Posit two extraordinary discoveries; first, > there is life on Europa, and second, that life is either enormously energy > efficient OR that life has tapped into a hitherto unknown energy source. In > either case, there would be money to be made. Assume that the second > discovery is not generally known. Now you have the stage set for a secret > battle between a few very powerful, very unscrupulous organizations. > > I might just write it myself. > > > -Original Message- > From: Nathan T. Schomer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 11:12 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Ice > > > > I'm not sure what sort of plotline you are looking at, but if you are > looking for an excuse to place permanant citizens on Europa, there is an > alternative to mining, as there are certianly other profitable enterprises > out there for consideration. For instance, the same aspect of Europa > which both intrigues and causes problems for this group is the fact that > anything interesting is probably buried under about 10 km of ice. That > same fact could be attractive to fururistic smugglers, perhaps discovering > a nice pre-dug hole into the underground ocean left behind by early > ice-pickers ;). Or maybe some eccentric furure economic powerhouse ( > individual or corporate ) has something they don't want to be out in the > open ( even to far-range off-planet telescopes ), maybe this something > needs a large body of cold liquid > > On Wed, 28 Mar 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 3/28/2001 5:01:01 PM Alaskan Standard Time, > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > > If you're really looking for a valuable Europan commodity, consider the > > > obvious -- native Europan life, which might very well be biologically > > unique > > > enough to have biological and medical uses of its own. (While I can't > say > > > too much about this for fear of giving away part of a future piece I'm > > > working on, one point brought up at the Europa Focus Group I attended in > > > > January was that -- on a world where microbial life may have been > evolving > > > for billions of years without ever having access to the huge Earthly > energy > > > source of photosynthesis -- Europan germs may have evolved some really > > > unusual energy-collection mechanisms. Such germs on Earth would have > been > > > quickly crowded out and exterminated by competition from our much more > > > vigorous photosynthesis-fueled organisms.) > > > > Let's consider a third alternative: if there is no native Europan life, > then > > it's a giant swimming pool with no 'guests'. No reason that you couldn't > > then seed it with designer-gene microbes, such as Archaea or whatnot. > > > > The inquirious mind then demands: what can Archaea or designer-gene > > transplants do, that would make them so valuable as to justify an entire > > colony to support them? I respond: anything you like. Since there would > be > > no predation, you could load up such microbes with all sorts of redundant > > characteristics, which would not be a disadvantage to them, but would be > an > > advantage to the human microbe farmer. > > > > In other words, the solar system's largest petri dish. > > > > -- John Harlow Byrne > > == > > You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ > > > > > > == > You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ > == > You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ > > == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice
If Europa has life, we should not open it to private corporations. It should be protected, as we protect Yosemite here. == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice
In a message dated 4/2/2001 8:28:36 AM Alaskan Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If Europa has life, we should not open it to private corporations. It should be protected, as we protect Yosemite here. I was wondering when the Cosmic Sierra Club would weigh in. One of the most aggravating, and compelling characters in all of Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars trilogy was the ecologist, who fights a losing battle to preserve Mar's sterile character for all time. My question for the writer: HOW do you intend to enforce the Europan Preserve? What will be done in the event of hostile claimstaking? Presume you set Europa aside, along with all its lifeforms... and, presume that the life has the added interest of being extremely energy efficient... (ergo, as some have suggested, a draw to corporate interests). How are you going to keep the Europan Preserve pristine from human interaction, for all time? Are you willing to shoot a poacher out of the sky? Somehow, I think that if a poaching corporation is willing to go through all the effort to GET to Europa, a mere censure will not be sufficient. For laughs, let's suppose that the UN sets up some sort of enforcement body. Will they be more efficient than the blue helmets were in Somalia, Yugoslavia, and elsewhere? Would the fact that it is a 'Preserve' (with a capital P) be any more effective than the sanctity of the Arctic National Wildlife Reserve has been (now under pressure to be opened for Big Oil interests)? Oh, and who / how are you going to pay for someone to be posted to guard off-world preserves? Taxes? Science fiction, anyone? -- John Harlow Byrne
Re: Ice
Well, there are several issues, Y1 Should Yosemite be preserved? Y2 Can Yosemite be preserved? E1 Should Europa (if life exists) be preserved? E2 Can Europa be preserved? I would argue "YES" for Y1,Y2, E1. Do you agree on Y1 and Y2? Yosemite, Yellowstone etc were very hard to reach early on, for both individuals and govt, yet for nearly a century the govt has done a fairly good job (not perfect of course) of preserving its wild state. I dont see any reason this cant continue. I hope the same happens for ANWR. I'm an avid Space enthusiast and environmentalist. What both have in common, that appeals to me, is they focus on the very long term. If our single generation makes some relatively modest investments (paying for cheap access to space, foregoing ANWR's oil), 1000s of generations to come will have enormous benefits, gifts that keep giving. As for E2, I have no idea. I sure hope so. It may be enforceable from Earth. I think private corps will open up space mining on (sterile) asteroids within a decade or two--the sooner the better! It will be much longer before they are completely independent of Earth and its govts. Till then, govts potentially have enforcement mechanisms. When corps finally become independent of earth, govts may be able to protect Europa on site like they do Yosemite. A great use of tax $ for benefit of generations to come. Ad astra, -Bill == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice
Actually Yosemite isn't the best example; it's primary purpose is recreational. The only public property in the U.S.A. where wildlife takes precedence over any human activity are wildlife refuges. National parks, forests, and monuments may balance the needs of wildlife, but only in refuges are the needs of wildlife protected as the primary rule... and often it takes the endangered species act to promote the concerns for wildlife in other areas. Even then, a refuge is not absolute protection for all wildlife; the U.S. government is currently at work trying to find loopholes to allow oil production in wildlife refuges. When push comes to shove, economic incentives will always win over any protection measures... even if those measures do not make economic sense in the long term. That being said, I think space is protected by international treaty from economic exploitation (despite propaganda from private industry). Then again, Antarctica on earth is also supposed to be protected by international treaty, but many countries like Australia lay claim to it. The best defense europan life will have against humanity is to not have any economic value; at least not until humanity reaches a level of maturity that pursues knowledge and art over material wealth. I'm not holding my breath for this to happen. "William P. Niedringhaus" wrote: If Europa has life, we should not open it to private corporations. It should be protected, as we protect Yosemite here. == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
RE: Ice
The national parks might provide a very good model for future corporate exploitation of Europa. Witness the current controversy over commercial collection of extremophiles from Yellowstone. One organism in particular, Thermus Aquaticus (Taq), collected from Yellowstone in the 1960's, became the source of Taq Polymerase, which jump-charged DNA replication and the science of genetics in the 1980s. When the patent for Taq P. was sold in 1994, it was worth about $300 million annually. So now Congress is wrestling over what to do with future bio discoveries from national parks. The situation is NOT analogous to mining or forestry, where you are pulling out massive natural resources to sell them. It involves intellectual property that is obtainable only because of a unique natural setting--a thimbleful of bugs gives you INFORMATION that is worth millions. The bugs themself have virtually no cash value (although any bugs from Europa would of course have the cash value of exotic zoo specimens/souvenirs). But the real industrial value of an extreme bio environament can be "harvested", for want of a better word, with virtually no visible impact on the site itself. The question is how to share the wealth. In the U.S. Nat. Parks, biotechs want to be able to purchase both exclusive and nonexclusive collection permits, with promise to share future profits, if any, with the park service. The NPS likes the idea, because it provides additional funds in a time of dying government support for parks, and the tourism and preservation missions of the parks are not harmed (as they are with mining and timbering on public lands). But many environmental groups oppose such schemes, arguing that allowing corporate purchase of intellectual rights from public natural products opens a Pandora's box and is morally akin to allowing Sequoia timbering or buffalo hunts. Then there's the question of determining value of intellectual property created through information obtained in the national park. Should the government get a fee from every Ansel Adam's photograph sold? Every copy of a book by John Muir? The biotechs argue no one will do the basic research if they don't pay for it with the hope of future rewards--environmentalists argue the NPS is selling off nature and a public trust. Expect the same arguments to emerge on every world humanity explores. While there is no known or easily imaginable natural resource on Europa that cannot be obtained in bulk far cheaper on Earth, or perhaps in the Asteroid Belt as well if you assume a space-faring society, the intellectual value derived from Europan life could be worth billions. Yet it's highly unlikely that any single corporation or group would be granted exclusive permission to research potential commercial applications of Europan life. I'd expect something like we have now in the parks--a mixture of big industry, education-based research, and small entrepreneurs, all of them working within a shifting bureaucratic system where no one completely trusts anyone else and individuals are always switching loyalties from one group to another. Michael Ray Taylor -Original Message-From: Thomas Green [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 2:41 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: IceActually Yosemite isn't the best example; it's primary purpose is recreational. The only public property in the U.S.A. where wildlife takes precedence over any human activity are wildlife refuges. National parks, forests, and monuments may balance the needs of wildlife, but only in refuges are the needs of wildlife protected as the primary rule... and often it takes the endangered species act to promote the concerns for wildlife in other areas. Even then, a refuge is not absolute protection for all wildlife; the U.S. government is currently at work trying to find loopholes to allow oil production in wildlife refuges. When push comes to shove, economic incentives will always win over any protection measures... even if those measures do not make economic sense in the long term. That being said, I think space is protected by international treaty from economic exploitation (despite propaganda from private industry). Then again, Antarctica on earth is also supposed to be protected by international treaty, but many countries like Australia lay claim to it. The best defense europan life will have against humanity is to not have any economic value; at least not until humanity reaches a level of maturity that pursues knowledge and art over material wealth. I'm not holding my breath for this to happen. "William P. Niedringhaus" wrote: If Europa has life, we should not open it to private corporations. It should be protected, as we protect Yosemite here.== You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and
Re: Ice
In a message dated 4/2/2001 12:21:21 PM Alaskan Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > As for E2, I have no idea. I sure hope so. It may be enforceable from > Earth. I think private corps will open up space mining on (sterile) > asteroids within a decade or two--the sooner the better! It will be > much longer before they are completely independent of Earth and its > govts. Till then, govts potentially have enforcement mechanisms. When > corps finally become independent of earth, govts may be able to protect > Europa on site like they do Yosemite. A great use of tax $ for benefit > of generations to come. The whole point of being 'independent from Earth' is the ability to ignore mandates from Earth. If corps are truly independent, governments can't protect what would be under that corp's sovereignity, by the definition of sovereignity (that is, complete mastery within the boundaries of the sovereign claim). So, you would be thrown back on boycotts to enforce any sanctions against outlaw corporations that decided that profits trump ecology. -- JHB == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice
In a message dated 4/2/2001 12:35:10 PM Alaskan Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > The best defense europan life will have against humanity is to not > have any economic value; at least not until humanity reaches a level of > maturity that pursues knowledge and art over material wealth. I'm > not holding my breath for this to happen. In 50,000 years, humans have not developed that maturity. We have gone from small packs of hunter-gatherers to large packs of developer-exploiters. The basic hardwiring of human brains -- eat to satisfaction and beyond, because tomorrow may bring starvation -- remains the same as it was when that hardwiring was set. I ask you: where are the Moas? Where the Dodo? Where the Passenger Pigeon? Where is Neandertal? Where the Mastodon? Where is the Cape Lion? Where, where, where? Where, then, is this maturity to be found? -- JHB == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I ask you: where are the Moas? Where the Dodo? > Where the Passenger Pigeon? > Where is Neandertal? Where the Mastodon? Where is > the Cape Lion? Where, > where, where? Where, then, is this maturity to be > found? > > -- JHB The fact that we can feel remorse for the lossof the species might be a sign ofa more mature attitude as a species. > == > You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing > list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Project information and list (un)subscribe info: > http://klx.com/europa/ > = Sincerely James McEnanly __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice
In a message dated 4/3/2001 9:21:25 AM Alaskan Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The fact that we can feel remorse for the lossof the species might be a sign ofa more mature attitude as a species. I will grant you this: in the middle of an impending energy crises, and with 1000s of Alaskans wholeheartedly in support of opening ANWR to oil exploration, there remains a majority of Americans who would rather that ANWR be left as a caribou calving grounds. And yet... outside of the Western world, ecology is seen as a Western scheme to keep the 3d World down. So, forests are logged, oil is sucked up and spilled, and various animals are wiped out for one reason or another. If life were discovered on Europa, would the vast majority of the world truly support preserving it in its pristine form, or would most rather develop it, and partake of the riches? Is such a question pointless, years before any such life is discovered, if at all? I don't think so: this group, the Europa website, and other planetary exploration societies, are now laying the groundwork -- the technological and idealogical groundwork -- for decades to come. Will we, can we, supply the philosophical groundwork of non-tampering as well? Personally, I must admit that I am in favor of space develoment, as a Deus Ex Machina to solve many of humanity's current population and social problems, over the next century. But, concurrent with that desire is a profound hope that humanity will be able to rise there as a more mature species, to rise above our simian hardwiring, and become a caretaker species, for ourselves, and for any biota which we may discover. Understand: even if Mars and Europa ARE 100% sterile, there will come a time when we DO discover some form of extraterrestial life, probably microbes. Life is simply too inevitable. Chemicals make RNA, RNA makes microbes, microbes make unicellular biota, which makes an opportunity, and a responsibility. Commentary? -- John Harlow Byrne
Re: Ice Worms
Your on AOL at the same time as I am, can you accept IM's?
Re: Ice phases, etc.
On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Gary McMurtry wrote: > Also, why worry about the power source for a demo? Because if it isn't realistic enough it gets labeled a 'joke'. Its a no brainer that if I stick a radiative ball on the top of a glacier connected to an endless supply of steam that its going to melt its way to the bottom of the glacier. The trick is to do this on a moon orbiting a giant planet halfway across the solar system! > Just use a surface gas-powered generator and a tethered cable. > It's ugly, but if you back-fill the hole with kerosene, it won't > refreeze. That's how the ice-boring folk do it down Antarctica-way. Oh yes, I bet the EI review panel will *love* that solution. "You are going to contaminate our pristine pretty "all-natural" glacier with *what*?" What flys in Antarctica isn't likely to fly in a National Park or Forrest. Its only been in the last couple of decades that the NSF has begun to clean up the environmental mess that the bases have left in the Antarctic. I've got no idea whether other governments are cleaning up the messes at their bases. > And another: oceanographers and the military use XBTs for recording > the thermal structure of the ocean. The XBT (eXpendable > Bathy-Thermograph) has a reel of thin conducting wire that plays out > as it goes down, so if used in a re-freezing hole, who cares as long > as the probe continues to move in the ice? Are we talking electrical heating of the probe tip here or something a little more energetic? In either case you have the problem of the ice refreezing and cutting off your energy source. > There may be a problem with the resistive load on the wire(s) to > maintain a hot probe, however. The problem is being able to continually extend the wires once they are frozen in the ice unless you make them out of a resistive material that keeps the layer around the wires unfrozen. I suspect in that case you are going to require a *lot* of energy which in turn means a *lot* of fuel. There are some serious calculations that need to be done before I'll take this idea seriously. To start with: 1) How much ice do you want to go through? 2) How many joules will it take to melt that much ice? (depends of course on the probe diameter.) 3) How many joules will it take to keep the power supply cables, pipes, etc. for the probe free of refreezing? (probably depends a lot on how much ice you want to go through.) If you start thinking about these things and the unknowns on Europa you begin to realize *why* a radioactive power source was viewed as the only alternative. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice phases, etc.
- Original Message - From: "Robert J. Bradbury" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 2:23 PM Subject: Re: Ice phases, etc. > > > On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Gary McMurtry wrote: > > And another: oceanographers and the military use XBTs for recording > > the thermal structure of the ocean. The XBT (eXpendable > > Bathy-Thermograph) has a reel of thin conducting wire that plays out > > as it goes down, so if used in a re-freezing hole, who cares as long > > as the probe continues to move in the ice? > > Are we talking electrical heating of the probe tip here or something > a little more energetic? In either case you have the problem of the > ice refreezing and cutting off your energy source. > > > There may be a problem with the resistive load on the wire(s) to > > maintain a hot probe, however. > > The problem is being able to continually extend the wires once they > are frozen in the ice unless you make them out of a resistive > material that keeps the layer around the wires unfrozen. > I suspect in that case you are going to require a *lot* of > energy which in turn means a *lot* of fuel. > > There are some serious calculations that need to be done before > I'll take this idea seriously. > > To start with: > 1) How much ice do you want to go through? > 2) How many joules will it take to melt that much ice? >(depends of course on the probe diameter.) > 3) How many joules will it take to keep the power supply cables, >pipes, etc. for the probe free of refreezing? (probably >depends a lot on how much ice you want to go through.) > > If you start thinking about these things and the unknowns on > Europa you begin to realize *why* a radioactive power source > was viewed as the only alternative. __ One of the biggest problems for a Cryobot -- or, for that matter, just melting and filtering enough ice water on a surface Europa lander to have a good chance of detecting biological traces -- is simply that water (both as ice and as liquid) can absorb so damn much heat with a minimal change in temperature. This is what stymied the first attempts back in 1968 to melt hundreds of meters through Greenland's icecap using thermal probes with electrically heated noses: to make them melt through the ice at more than an abysmally slow pace, they had to pump so much power into their electric heaters that their filaments kept burning out. It turns out now that actively pumping hot water through the Cryobot's nose works much more efficiently to melt its way down -- but, even so, you need a hell of a lot of heat energy, which as Robert says is why a heat-emitting radioisotope is an absolute necessity for the Europa cryobot. (Indeed, if Chris Chyba is right, incorporating a preliminary Cryobot with a depth of just a few hundred meters may be the only way for a Europa surface lander to acquire enough meltwater to look for evidence of life.) By the way, there are very extensive tests underway by government-funded groups right now for exactly the sort of tests the Icepick group is talking about (That, among other things, is how it's been established that hot-water jets work well; they've been using those on thermal probes in Antarctica for some years now.) If we do try to go ahead with this, we'll already be way behind the beat where Cryobot tests are concerned. I've got some additional abstracts and news articles on Cryobot tests in my records, although it will take me a little while to track them down -- but Frank Carsey is centrally involved with them. (One capable of penetrating 100 meters or so through Mars' north polar cap is under very serious consideration for the 2007 Mars Scout mission.) == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
Re: Ice phases, etc.
Robert, You've missed some important points. The reel of wire would be attached or in close proximity to the probe and pay out as it goes down, just like an XBT. I think you would be amazed at how much wire these things can carry--hundreds of meters if not several km. The trick is the wire is thin, strong and wound very well. I think we can all picture a compact power source on the probe, and why it's necessary to go with an isotope heater and thermoelectric energy-generating source on Europa (and perhaps even Mars). Besides, if you think the Park Service will wince at some kerosene in their glacier, how about a lost Pu-238 RTG? Ooops! What's more interesting is deploying a melter that can still communicate to the surface. Besides being a rallying point for this group, it will get others' attention if successful. To my knowledge, the only "Cryobot" deployments to date have been in "conventional" ice bore holes, however environmentally unfriendly those were made and maintained. These first deployments were just equipment tests. I believe Frank Carsey knows of previous melter attempts made by the ice hole drillers. Gary At 02:23 PM 10/27/2002 -0800, you wrote: On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Gary McMurtry wrote: > Also, why worry about the power source for a demo? Because if it isn't realistic enough it gets labeled a 'joke'. Its a no brainer that if I stick a radiative ball on the top of a glacier connected to an endless supply of steam that its going to melt its way to the bottom of the glacier. The trick is to do this on a moon orbiting a giant planet halfway across the solar system! > Just use a surface gas-powered generator and a tethered cable. > It's ugly, but if you back-fill the hole with kerosene, it won't > refreeze. That's how the ice-boring folk do it down Antarctica-way. Oh yes, I bet the EI review panel will *love* that solution. "You are going to contaminate our pristine pretty "all-natural" glacier with *what*?" What flys in Antarctica isn't likely to fly in a National Park or Forrest. Its only been in the last couple of decades that the NSF has begun to clean up the environmental mess that the bases have left in the Antarctic. I've got no idea whether other governments are cleaning up the messes at their bases. > And another: oceanographers and the military use XBTs for recording > the thermal structure of the ocean. The XBT (eXpendable > Bathy-Thermograph) has a reel of thin conducting wire that plays out > as it goes down, so if used in a re-freezing hole, who cares as long > as the probe continues to move in the ice? Are we talking electrical heating of the probe tip here or something a little more energetic? In either case you have the problem of the ice refreezing and cutting off your energy source. > There may be a problem with the resistive load on the wire(s) to > maintain a hot probe, however. The problem is being able to continually extend the wires once they are frozen in the ice unless you make them out of a resistive material that keeps the layer around the wires unfrozen. I suspect in that case you are going to require a *lot* of energy which in turn means a *lot* of fuel. There are some serious calculations that need to be done before I'll take this idea seriously. To start with: 1) How much ice do you want to go through? 2) How many joules will it take to melt that much ice? (depends of course on the probe diameter.) 3) How many joules will it take to keep the power supply cables, pipes, etc. for the probe free of refreezing? (probably depends a lot on how much ice you want to go through.) If you start thinking about these things and the unknowns on Europa you begin to realize *why* a radioactive power source was viewed as the only alternative. Robert == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/
