date:20141125

Very rare? Like film and mechanical watches. No it's common and happens all the 
time and it's happening now

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 25, 2014, at 2:52 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>> Most posts in this thread are vastly underestimating the immense inertia of
>> the status quo... We are up against a hugely profitable industry. Do not
>> think that these things will not happen.
> 
> Amen!
> 
> It is *very* rare for a new technology to be able to replace a deeply 
> entrenched existing technology. To make it happen, the new tech has to be 
> dramatically and obviously superior in virtually all ways. *And*, the 
> existing status quo has to be so inept and dysfunctional that they get 
> "blindsided", and don't even see the new tech coming until it's too late to 
> stop it.
> -- 
> The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
> there before. -- Roy Spence
> --
> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

Interesting. I wasn't aware that Li-ion batteries were not recycled. But I 
think that you *will* see that in the future... If they can make money at it.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 25, 2014, at 12:40 PM, Lee Hart  wrote:
> 
> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> I agree with what you are saying (though the numbers *will* change as
>> people have to pay at charging stations), but by investing in cost
>> reductions, I meant the cost of the battery to produce.
> 
> Batteries are much harder to cost reduce than the usual consumer gadgets we 
> are used to.
> 
> The cost of the materials in most consumer products is negligible. The price 
> is dominated by advertising, labor, development, and profit. We're used to 
> things like cellphones where the cost of materials is insignificant compared 
> to these other costs.
> 
> It's different with batteries. They need a *lot* of material to get the 
> energy storage. The more pounds, the greater the energy storage. The 
> materials they use also tend to be expensive (high cost per pound).
> 
> The only hope I see for "cheap" batteries is if we develop an effective 
> recycling infrastructure, so most of the cost can be recovered, and the 
> material reused to make new batteries.
> 
> Lead-acid batteries are cheap in part because they are so heavily recycled. 
> There are laws that *require* recycling them. This helps to keep the cost of 
> lead down. But there are no such laws for nimh or lithium. Given our 
> throw-away society, what do you think happens to the vast majority of them? 
> They get thrown out -- NOT recycled. And given our present political climate, 
> what do you think the chances are of any laws to require them to be recycled? 
> I'd say nil. :-(
> 
> -- 
> The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
> there before. -- Roy Spence
> --
> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
> 
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Re: [EVDL] 120-240Vac Watt-Hour-Meter...

2014-11-25 Thread Ing. Marco Gaxiola via EV

Cor, yes! Precisely I already have that model on my actual EV:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/109469848356360136281/albums/585303084103
3632673/6085822862358431218?pid=6085822862358431218&oid=10946984835636013628
1  

It works perfect on 240Vac; but on 120Vac everything seems to work
too (the LCD screen comes on and the Pulse LED flashes, which confirms the
power supply works too) but the watt-hour counter never advance. So, unless
I connect my EV into 240V the meter count will advance and keep the track of
energy used. When I use 120V; which I try to avoid most of the times but not
always is possible, I need to calculate the Kwatts poured in by tracking the
time being connected there.

I use this info to write it into an excel file, where I also put the
ODO trip information every several days or every month, and my monthly
utility bill. Then I get my Kilowatt per Kilometer usage, cost of kilometer,
max-min efficiency days/trips, etc.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/109469848356360136281/albums/585303084103
3632673/6085822806958060978?pid=6085822806958060978&oid=10946984835636013628
1  

David, that is exactly the point of use a Watt-hr-meter inside the
car; to have a Kilometer/Watt-hr track no matter where you plug the car
(this includes not using an EVSE). This way you will have an any time true
power consumption of the car either it is used on lights, driving, radio or
anything else, just like the Odometer of all cars as an indicator of all
Km(miles) used for the life of the car. 



Ing. Marco Gaxiola
ma...@energyev.com
Off: +52(662)301.1070
Mob: +521(662)169.0140
www.energyev.com  

    


-Mensaje original-
De: David Kerzel [mailto:a...@bellsouth.net] 
Enviado el: martes, 25 de noviembre de 2014 05:14 p.m.
Para: 'Ing. Marco Gaxiola'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
CC: ma...@energyev.com
Asunto: RE: [EVDL] 120-240Vac Watt-Hour-Meter...

Marco
We have integrated watt-hour meters in to some or our EVSE units.  120, 208
or 240VAC is not a problem nor is a design for 100A RMS.   The system we
have used also measures voltage, current and power factor.  The current
measurement is used in the EVSE to stop the charge on over pilot current
situations before the main breaker trips and keeping the EVSE operational.
On the EVSE side you know how much energy is getting used and it can be
tracked by user or vehicle.
I had not thought about using one in the vehicle but it might interest some
people to track miles/watt-hr.
If anyone else is interested please write.

David Kerzel
Modular EV Power LLC
http://modularevpower.com 

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ing. Marco Gaxiola
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2014 2:27 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: [EVDL] 120-240Vac Watt-Hour-Meter...


Im trying to find a Watt-hour-meter that can work on a single phase
either for 120 or 240Vac. Similar to this one from EKM-Metering: (can retain
cumulative watt-hour data)

http://www.ekmmetering.com/basic-kwh-meter-100a-120-240-volt-3-wire-60hz-ekm
-25ids.html

Want to install it on an EV conversion that will be capable of
recharge either on 120Vac or 240Vac (L1 or L2) using a J1772 inlet, so no
wire or manual configuration must be done. This will let me the ability to
connect the car on any 120 or 240 outlet as any L2 public charging and have
a track of all life power consumed from the car. 

Does some one knows any different option? 



Ing. Marco Gaxiola
ma...@energyev.com
Off: +52(662)301.1070
Mob: +521(662)169.0140
www.energyev.com  



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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

At some point it may be the petroleum industry in the paid charging 
infrastructure side - but now it's not.

Also, at least here in California, most filling stations are NOT owned by the 
oil industry. They've mostly divested.

That said, this is where their products get sold, so many of your points are 
still valid.

When the California Air Resources Board was considering a regulation requiring 
the industry to fund hydrogen fueling infrastructure, the reply was "why should 
we pay to put ourselves out of business?" The argument is not too much 
different for charging infrastructure unless a business transition is planned.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 25, 2014, at 12:22 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> Most posts in this thread are vastly underestimating the immense inertia of 
> the status quo.  
> 
> The petroleum industry has a huge investment in filling station 
> infrastructure, and a huge revenue return from it.  If EVs really catch on - 
> and that's not a given, for many reasons - they are not going to stand by 
> and watch their profit base erode.  
> 
> They will use their media partners (ad revenue is a powerful motivation) to 
> push paid public charging as "safer."  A few sensationalized stories about 
> home fires and electrocutions vaguely associated with EV charging will go a 
> long way, and they won't stop there.
> 
> They will form astroturf "nonprofits" to promote paid public charging.  
> 
> They will use their legislative influence to get laws passed that encourage 
> paid public charging, if they don't explicitly discourage or even ban home 
> charging for as many people as possible.
> 
> We are up against a hugely profitable industry.  Do not think that these 
> things will not happen.  
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] 120-240Vac Watt-Hour-Meter...

2014-11-25 Thread David Kerzel via EV

Marco
We have integrated watt-hour meters in to some or our EVSE units.  120, 208
or 240VAC is not a problem nor is a design for 100A RMS.   The system we
have used also measures voltage, current and power factor.  The current
measurement is used in the EVSE to stop the charge on over pilot current
situations before the main breaker trips and keeping the EVSE operational.
On the EVSE side you know how much energy is getting used and it can be
tracked by user or vehicle.
I had not thought about using one in the vehicle but it might interest some
people to track miles/watt-hr.
If anyone else is interested please write.

David Kerzel
Modular EV Power LLC
http://modularevpower.com 

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ing. Marco Gaxiola
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2014 2:27 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: [EVDL] 120-240Vac Watt-Hour-Meter...


Im trying to find a Watt-hour-meter that can work on a single phase
either for 120 or 240Vac. Similar to this one from EKM-Metering: (can retain
cumulative watt-hour data)

http://www.ekmmetering.com/basic-kwh-meter-100a-120-240-volt-3-wire-60hz-ekm
-25ids.html

Want to install it on an EV conversion that will be capable of
recharge either on 120Vac or 240Vac (L1 or L2) using a J1772 inlet, so no
wire or manual configuration must be done. This will let me the ability to
connect the car on any 120 or 240 outlet as any L2 public charging and have
a track of all life power consumed from the car. 

Does some one knows any different option? 



Ing. Marco Gaxiola
ma...@energyev.com
Off: +52(662)301.1070
Mob: +521(662)169.0140
www.energyev.com  


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Re: [EVDL] 120-240Vac Watt-Hour-Meter...

2014-11-25 Thread Cor van de Water via EV

The last sentence of the spec does it:
"This meter will not work on a 120 volt 2 wire system"
so, you'll need to find one that does both, or find how you can
trick this meter into working on both 240 and 120 (probably a modification of 
the power supply, I am guessing, but I do not know if the software that is 
measuring the input voltage will see 120 as a valid input - though there are 
other variants of this same meter that do work on 120V.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ing. Marco Gaxiola via 
EV
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2014 2:27 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: [EVDL] 120-240Vac Watt-Hour-Meter...


I'm trying to find a Watt-hour-meter that can work on a single phase
either for 120 or 240Vac. Similar to this one from EKM-Metering: (can retain
cumulative watt-hour data)

http://www.ekmmetering.com/basic-kwh-meter-100a-120-240-volt-3-wire-60hz-ekm
-25ids.html

Want to install it on an EV conversion that will be capable of
recharge either on 120Vac or 240Vac (L1 or L2) using a J1772 inlet, so no
wire or manual configuration must be done. This will let me the ability to
connect the car on any 120 or 240 outlet as any L2 public charging and have
a track of all 'life power consumed' from the car. 

Does some one knows any different option? 



Ing. Marco Gaxiola
ma...@energyev.com
Off: +52(662)301.1070
Mob: +521(662)169.0140
www.energyev.com  




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[EVDL] 120-240Vac Watt-Hour-Meter...

2014-11-25 Thread Ing. Marco Gaxiola via EV


Im trying to find a Watt-hour-meter that can work on a single phase
either for 120 or 240Vac. Similar to this one from EKM-Metering: (can retain
cumulative watt-hour data)

http://www.ekmmetering.com/basic-kwh-meter-100a-120-240-volt-3-wire-60hz-ekm
-25ids.html

Want to install it on an EV conversion that will be capable of
recharge either on 120Vac or 240Vac (L1 or L2) using a J1772 inlet, so no
wire or manual configuration must be done. This will let me the ability to
connect the car on any 120 or 240 outlet as any L2 public charging and have
a track of all life power consumed from the car. 

Does some one knows any different option? 



Ing. Marco Gaxiola
ma...@energyev.com
Off: +52(662)301.1070
Mob: +521(662)169.0140
www.energyev.com  




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Re: [EVDL] Supercapacitors: A New Hero in the Spotlight

2014-11-25 Thread Lee Hart via EV


Michael Ross via EV wrote:

Because supercaps are very lightweight in comparison to additional
batteries, the numbers might work out differently than simply adding a
battery.  But I see the point.


Actually, the reverse is true. Supercapacitors are *bigger* and 
*heavier* than batteries for a given amount of energy storage... by a 
huge factor (like 10:1 or worse).


The only merit that capacitors have over batteries is that they can be 
charged and discharged faster. If you need X watts for minutes or more, 
batteries are clearly better. But if you need X watts for *seconds*, 
then supercapacitors are just the thing!


--
The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
there before. -- Roy Spence
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

Lee said:
'The cost of the materials in most consumer products is negligible. The
price is dominated by advertising, labor, development, and profit. We're
used to things like cellphones where the cost of materials is insignificant
compared to these other costs."

That is a really good point I had not noticed before.

Lee said:
"Given our throw-away society, what do you think happens to the vast
majority of them? They get thrown out -- NOT recycled. "

My observation is that recycling is going much better than it was even 5
years ago.  The presence of scrap yards that take in almost anything is
greater.  At home. The level of stuff in my recycling bin is easily double
sometimes 4 times what is in my trash bin.  Occasionally, there is no
"trash" at all it is all recycled.  If my wife did not insist on sending
cat litter to the landfill it would be even better.

I think recycling of Li ion batteries is limited because they are such a
small part of the stream, and smaller cells are viewed as of little more
importance than a stick of the same size.  But I think the means and will
is present more than you give credit for.

BTW, I live in a pretty rural area where environmental concerns are not
viewed as terribly high priority.

Anyway, I am more hopeful than you are.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 3:40 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>
>> I agree with what you are saying (though the numbers *will* change as
>> people have to pay at charging stations), but by investing in cost
>> reductions, I meant the cost of the battery to produce.
>>
>
> Batteries are much harder to cost reduce than the usual consumer gadgets
> we are used to.
>
> The cost of the materials in most consumer products is negligible. The
> price is dominated by advertising, labor, development, and profit. We're
> used to things like cellphones where the cost of materials is insignificant
> compared to these other costs.
>
> It's different with batteries. They need a *lot* of material to get the
> energy storage. The more pounds, the greater the energy storage. The
> materials they use also tend to be expensive (high cost per pound).
>
> The only hope I see for "cheap" batteries is if we develop an effective
> recycling infrastructure, so most of the cost can be recovered, and the
> material reused to make new batteries.
>
> Lead-acid batteries are cheap in part because they are so heavily
> recycled. There are laws that *require* recycling them. This helps to keep
> the cost of lead down. But there are no such laws for nimh or lithium.
> Given our throw-away society, what do you think happens to the vast
> majority of them? They get thrown out -- NOT recycled. And given our
> present political climate, what do you think the chances are of any laws to
> require them to be recycled? I'd say nil. :-(
>
> --
> The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
> there before. -- Roy Spence
>
> --
> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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>

-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

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(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
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(919) 513-0418 Desk

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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

2014-11-25 Thread Lee Hart via EV


EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

Most posts in this thread are vastly underestimating the immense inertia of
the status quo... We are up against a hugely profitable industry. Do not
think that these things will not happen.


Amen!

It is *very* rare for a new technology to be able to replace a deeply 
entrenched existing technology. To make it happen, the new tech has to 
be dramatically and obviously superior in virtually all ways. *And*, the 
existing status quo has to be so inept and dysfunctional that they get 
"blindsided", and don't even see the new tech coming until it's too late 
to stop it.

--
The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
there before. -- Roy Spence
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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[EVDL] Electric vehicles could stabilize large disturbances in power grid

2014-11-25 Thread Ben Goren via EV

http://phys.org/news/2014-11-electric-vehicles-stabilize-large-disturbances.html
 

> (Phys.org) —Today when an electric vehicle is plugged into the grid, it's 
> almost always in charge mode, meaning it consumes power. But it's also 
> possible for an electric vehicle to operate in discharge mode, in which it 
> acts as a giant battery and injects power into the grid when needed. Several 
> recent studies have shown that plug-in electric vehicles (PEVs) operating as 
> vehicle-to-grid (V2G) devices can offer advantages for the grid such as 
> backup power for renewable energy sources, power regulation, and load 
> balancing.
> 
> Now in a new study, researchers have found another potential advantage of 
> using PEVs as sources of power for the grid: they can improve stability when 
> the grid is subjected to large disturbances. Large disturbances are caused by 
> a wide range of problems, such as abrupt load changes and line tripping. 
> Among their negative effects, they can damage sensitive appliances and, if 
> not cleared within a specific time, the system may be unable to resume stable 
> operation.

When the time comes, I'm going to be asking questions here about how to do that 
on a small scale, with a charger / inverter / whatever combination to provide 
backup power for the home. But I've got plenty more to worry about before 
then

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercapacitors: A New Hero in the Spotlight

Right, I don't think the topic is really about current super capacitor
designs.  Nor will any new designs be compared to current battery chemistry
and design - they will all advance.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:

> On Nov 25, 2014, at 1:13 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Years ago Solectria found that by leveling the load on a lead battery,
> > reducing its peak current requirements, supercaps / ultracaps could
> improve
> > an EV's range.  Unfortunately, though, it was a little more complex than
> > just paralleling them with the battery.
>
> The last time supercaps were in the news, I did some pricing, etc., on
> them.
>
> Never mind prices. You can buy supercaps / ultracaps of a suitable size to
> function in an EV.
>
> ...but you get marginally higher peak wattages with some CALB batteries,
> and substantially higher peak wattages with A123 batteries, than you do
> with supercaps. And the batteries have much larger storage capacities and
> far superior self-discharge rates. For less money.
>
> I wouldn't automatically rule out capacitor-type devices for the future,
> but batteries already have them beat at their own home park.
>
> b&
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>


-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

2014-11-25 Thread Lee Hart via EV


Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

I agree with what you are saying (though the numbers *will* change as
people have to pay at charging stations), but by investing in cost
reductions, I meant the cost of the battery to produce.


Batteries are much harder to cost reduce than the usual consumer gadgets 
we are used to.


The cost of the materials in most consumer products is negligible. The 
price is dominated by advertising, labor, development, and profit. We're 
used to things like cellphones where the cost of materials is 
insignificant compared to these other costs.


It's different with batteries. They need a *lot* of material to get the 
energy storage. The more pounds, the greater the energy storage. The 
materials they use also tend to be expensive (high cost per pound).


The only hope I see for "cheap" batteries is if we develop an effective 
recycling infrastructure, so most of the cost can be recovered, and the 
material reused to make new batteries.


Lead-acid batteries are cheap in part because they are so heavily 
recycled. There are laws that *require* recycling them. This helps to 
keep the cost of lead down. But there are no such laws for nimh or 
lithium. Given our throw-away society, what do you think happens to the 
vast majority of them? They get thrown out -- NOT recycled. And given 
our present political climate, what do you think the chances are of any 
laws to require them to be recycled? I'd say nil. :-(


--
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there before. -- Roy Spence
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Re: [EVDL] Supercapacitors: A New Hero in the Spotlight

2014-11-25 Thread Ben Goren via EV

On Nov 25, 2014, at 1:13 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> Years ago Solectria found that by leveling the load on a lead battery, 
> reducing its peak current requirements, supercaps / ultracaps could improve 
> an EV's range.  Unfortunately, though, it was a little more complex than 
> just paralleling them with the battery.

The last time supercaps were in the news, I did some pricing, etc., on them.

Never mind prices. You can buy supercaps / ultracaps of a suitable size to 
function in an EV.

...but you get marginally higher peak wattages with some CALB batteries, and 
substantially higher peak wattages with A123 batteries, than you do with 
supercaps. And the batteries have much larger storage capacities and far 
superior self-discharge rates. For less money.

I wouldn't automatically rule out capacitor-type devices for the future, but 
batteries already have them beat at their own home park.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Supercapacitors: A New Hero in the Spotlight

Because supercaps are very lightweight in comparison to additional
batteries, the numbers might work out differently than simply adding a
battery.  But I see the point.

Also, by the time supercaps are actually useful they might have gained a
lot of weight.

All rank speculation.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 3:13 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 25 Nov 2014 at 11:30, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > I heard Elon Musk comment that he thought there might be a possibility
> that
> > super caps could be at least useful on EVs if not a replacement for
> battery
> > cells.
>
> Years ago Solectria found that by leveling the load on a lead battery,
> reducing its peak current requirements, supercaps / ultracaps could improve
> an EV's range.  Unfortunately, though, it was a little more complex than
> just paralleling them with the battery.
>
> http://www.evdl.org/docs/supercap_leveler.pdf
>
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20010426054622/http://solectria.com/ultracap.html
>
> You could also get a significant range improvement by adding another couple
> of batteries, and for a lot less money.
>
> OTOH you can say this about any strategy that improves EV efficiency.  It's
> usually cheaper to throw more stored battery energy at the problem.  But
> think about it this way : a lot of us would sneer at an automaker that
> didn't bother trying to improve their ICEVs' mpg, but instead bolted in a
> larger gas tank.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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-- 
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

2014-11-25 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV

Most posts in this thread are vastly underestimating the immense inertia of 
the status quo.  

The petroleum industry has a huge investment in filling station 
infrastructure, and a huge revenue return from it.  If EVs really catch on - 
and that's not a given, for many reasons - they are not going to stand by 
and watch their profit base erode.  

They will use their media partners (ad revenue is a powerful motivation) to 
push paid public charging as "safer."  A few sensationalized stories about 
home fires and electrocutions vaguely associated with EV charging will go a 
long way, and they won't stop there.

They will form astroturf "nonprofits" to promote paid public charging.  

They will use their legislative influence to get laws passed that encourage 
paid public charging, if they don't explicitly discourage or even ban home 
charging for as many people as possible.

We are up against a hugely profitable industry.  Do not think that these 
things will not happen.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Supercapacitors: A New Hero in the Spotlight

2014-11-25 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV

On 25 Nov 2014 at 11:30, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

> I heard Elon Musk comment that he thought there might be a possibility that
> super caps could be at least useful on EVs if not a replacement for battery
> cells.

Years ago Solectria found that by leveling the load on a lead battery, 
reducing its peak current requirements, supercaps / ultracaps could improve 
an EV's range.  Unfortunately, though, it was a little more complex than 
just paralleling them with the battery.

http://www.evdl.org/docs/supercap_leveler.pdf

http://web.archive.org/web/20010426054622/http://solectria.com/ultracap.html

You could also get a significant range improvement by adding another couple 
of batteries, and for a lot less money.  

OTOH you can say this about any strategy that improves EV efficiency.  It's 
usually cheaper to throw more stored battery energy at the problem.  But 
think about it this way : a lot of us would sneer at an automaker that 
didn't bother trying to improve their ICEVs' mpg, but instead bolted in a 
larger gas tank.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

I agree with what you are saying  ( though the numbers *will* change as people 
have to pay at charging stations), but by investing in cost reductions, I meant 
the cost of the battery to produce.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 25, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Michael Ross  wrote:
> 
> I think people will eventually start doing the math on EVs. 
> 
> If I bought a Leaf now (there was a program where I could get a dealer 
> invoice as a university employee) for $23K, 
> and reduced the cost of it by the fuel cost
> 
> (Swag that as 25 mpg divided by $2.50 a gallon to yield $0.10 a mile time 
> 150K miles = $15000 savings x 0.75 (to reduce for the cost of power) = $11250 
> in savings)
> I have now bought a decent car (better than an ICE)
> that is more than adequate for 99% of my use
> at a cost of $11750
> which has reduced maintenance cost and labor.
> I left out any government incentives, rebates etc.
> 
> I suspect that EVs in the future will better than a RAV5EV or a current 
> version of the Leaf.
> 
> As soon as financing makes this possible for the vast majority of people who 
> can't afford to pay cash for their car we'll see a bunch more EVs in use.
> 
> Really, EVs are cheap if you are not simply a used car buyer like myself.  I 
> won't spend $12K on a car, but I can see the day coming when I might be able 
> to get a used EV that is worth having.
> 
> Maybe I should be looking at Leafs
> 
>> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 11:13 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  
>> wrote:
>> Not unlikely, though it seems to be that since the original RAV-4EV, 
>> investment for the most part has gone into cost reductions rather than range 
>> increases. IIRC, the range of the RAV4-EV was about 120 miles.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> > On Nov 24, 2014, at 9:53 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>> >
>> > I think the solution will be much more boring than that.  As battery 
>> > capacity increases and charge time decreases, we'll simply see filling 
>> > stations morph to charging stations.  Status quo.
>> >
>> > I'm sure people will continue to charge at home if they're able.  The rest 
>> > will use "filling" stations.
>> >
>> > Peri
>> >
>> > -- Original Message --
>> > From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
>> > To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
>> > List" 
>> > Sent: 24-Nov-14 7:10:54 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 
>> > CORRECTION!)
>> >
>> >> Ben Goren via EV wrote:
>> >>> I predict we'll see parking meters everywhere morph into charging
>> >>> stations
>> >>
>> >> This is certainly the logical way to do it. However, logic has little to 
>> >> do with politics and business.
>> >>
>> >>> I also imagine there'll be much wringing of hands over figuring out
>> >>> what to charge for charging as opposed to parking...
>> >>
>> >> Ironically, every parking meter I've ever seen already charges *way* more 
>> >> per hour than the cost of the electricity you could get from an AC outlet 
>> >> on that meter.
>> >>
>> >> -- Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any
>> >> good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
>> >> --
>> >> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
>> >> ___
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>> >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>> >
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>> >
>> >
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>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain 
> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?  
> D

Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (Retractible Cords)

2014-11-25 Thread Ben Goren via EV

On Nov 25, 2014, at 11:52 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

> Any apartment dweller that thinks an EV that they have to take to a
> “CHARGING STATION” every single day for an hour a day is delusional.
> 
> Any apartment dweller with a 30 mile daily need that buys a car with a 200
> mile range for quadruple the cost of a battery just so they can go to a
> public charging station and sit for an hour once a week is wasting their
> money.

You're assuming that batteries will always be as expensive as they are today.

When a Tesla P85 battery costs a few thousand dollars or so, nobody's going to 
sell cars with anything smaller.

And, everybody with an homebuilt will be thinking about how to replace 
whatever's in the car today with such a battery, much the same as so many with 
lead acids are replacing those with Leaf packs.

Yes, an 80-mile range may well be "good enough." But since when have 
advertisers and buyers ever been satisfied with "good enough," when "more than 
you can imagine" is on the table?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (Retractible Cords)

Ø Large numbers of car owners here live in apartments

That’s not my point. The topic I was addressing was the statement that
“FAST Charging Stations” will become as ubiquitous as Gas Stations in the
long run. I disagree.

Any apartment dweller that thinks an EV that they have to take to a
“CHARGING STATION” every single day for an hour a day is delusional.

Any apartment dweller with a 30 mile daily need that buys a car with a 200
mile range for quadruple the cost of a battery just so they can go to a
public charging station and sit for an hour once a week is wasting their
money.

The solution for apartments is going to be the slow growth of
outlets-where-they-park. No matter the obstacles, that is the only
practical long term solution. Sure there will be some fast public
charging for those people that get into extremis, but one can be darn sure
that if it takes 20 minutes at a fast public station, then one may have to
wait an hour or more for **one’s** turn. Either waiting in line or waiting
for the guy in front to come back from the donut shop across the street.

There are about 1,000,000 people in apartments or multi-unit dwellings. It
is unsustainable to expect a growth of fast public charging stations that
may cost $100,000 each to be a business when all they can sell is about $2
a day worth of electricity to only the folks who cannot charge at home.

In my humble opinion…

Bob, WB4APR

*From:* Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 25, 2014 12:50 PM
*To:* Robert Bruninga; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
*Subject:* Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (Retractible
Cords)

Robert,

Large numbers of car owners here live in apartments,and more and denser
housing is being built in the city centers - no EV infrastructure is
planned. Inadequate decks are planned.

The urban area you live in makes a large difference. There is not broad
stroke you can make about transportation options.

Here in the Raleigh (Durham/Chapel Hill/Cary) "Triangle" with about a
million people, not having a car means you can't really get anywhere except
by cab or on foot. The bus system is abysmal, nothing else exists and the
metro area is very spread out. An apartment dweller here has very few
options other than to own or share a car. Bicycle culture is weak here and
auto drivers are peevish.

They have been talking about light rail for decades and appear no closer
than ever.

None of what you said applies here.

I suspect the same is true form most cities in the 1/2 to 1 million
population range. Maybe these don't count, but there are a lot of them.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV
wrote:

> Except for the fact that much of the population lives in Apartments
> and high roise building and have neither option.

Who cares? They can then usually walk or take the metro to work ride a
bike or use an ICE or LNG or CNG, or hydrogen. An EV is NOT for everyone!

The Census says about 33% do not live in single-family -detached houses,
but they generally are in urban areas and so their driving is much less.
Let's say half what the typical suburban drivers do. So now we are down
to only 16% of the transportation pie. Lets sell EV's where they make
sense and not burden EVERY EV with the issues of a few.

> In California, many apartment dwellers with an assigned
> parking spot can now install their own charging capability,
> as long as they meet certain requirements, including accepting
liability.

That is being passed in Maryland too until we just elected a republican
governor intent on eliminating all things green and renewable...

Bob, WB4aPR
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Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?

*Dalai Lama*

Tell me what it is you plan to do

With your one wild and precious life?

Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.

*Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>*

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.

*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross

(919) 550-2430 Land

(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone

(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (Retractible Cords)

Robert,

Large numbers of car owners here live in apartments,and more and denser
housing is being built in the city centers - no EV infrastructure is
planned.  Inadequate decks are planned.

The urban area you live in makes a large difference.  There is not broad
stroke you can make about transportation options.

Here in the Raleigh (Durham/Chapel Hill/Cary) "Triangle" with about a
million people, not having a car means you can't really get anywhere except
by cab or on foot.  The bus system is abysmal, nothing else exists and the
metro area is very spread out.  An apartment dweller here has very few
options other than to own or share a car.  Bicycle culture is weak here and
auto drivers are peevish.

They have been talking about light rail for decades and appear no closer
than ever.

None of what you said applies here.

I suspect the same is true form most cities in the 1/2 to 1 million
population range.  Maybe these don't count, but there are a lot of them.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> > Except for the fact that much of the population lives in Apartments
> >  and high roise building and have neither option.
>
> Who cares?  They can then usually walk or take the metro to work ride a
> bike or use an ICE or LNG or CNG, or hydrogen.  An EV is NOT for everyone!
>
> The Census says about 33% do not live in single-family -detached houses,
> but they generally are in urban areas and so their driving is much less.
> Let's say half what the typical suburban drivers do.  So now we are down
> to only 16% of the transportation pie.  Lets sell EV's where they make
> sense and not burden EVERY EV with the issues of a few.
>
> > In California, many apartment dwellers with an assigned
> > parking spot can now install their own charging capability,
> > as long as they meet certain requirements, including accepting
> liability.
>
> That is being passed in Maryland too until we just elected a republican
> governor intent on eliminating all things green and renewable...
>
> Bob, WB4aPR
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

On Nov 24, 2014, at 9:45 PM, Lee Hart  wrote:
> 
> So you can't legally sell power at a charging station without the power 
> company's blessing.

Certainly an issue, though not insurmountable.

> 
> But you CAN charge for a parking place that just happens to provide "free" 
> electricity!

At a "small" premium, no doubt.
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

2014-11-25 Thread Cor van de Water via EV

It is very simple:
Parking rates are chosen to rise the "pain" of parking to the level that
enough people decide that they do not want to park so that there are
almost always some spaces left, but not too many, so that parking
revenue is maximized.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via
EV
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 7:57 PM
To: Lee Hart
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1
CORRECTION!)

On Nov 24, 2014, at 8:10 PM, Lee Hart  wrote:

> Ironically, every parking meter I've ever seen already charges *way*
more per hour than the cost of the electricity you could get from an AC
outlet on that meter.

Oh, it's worse than that. Much worse.

At $5 / hour...that's $120 / day, which is over $3600 / month.

That's a couple times a not uncommon suburban mortgage in the Phoenix
metro area. All for a few dozen square feet of asphalt!?

Regardless, those who charge for parking meters will most certainly see
charging as a premium service for those meters and charge accordingly,
marginal cost to them be damned. They'll probably start at at least
double, if not triple or more, of the non-charging rate (though there
may well be free introductory trials or what-not). And, once that gets
accepted as the "new normal," they'll figure out a way to do away with
the non-charging rate.

Places that _don't_ charge for parking today almost certainly won't
charge for parking + charging in the future, and they'll have even more
people prefer them to the alternates. But I'm sure the vultures will
show no mercy given the opportunity.

...now might be a good time to start thinking about ways to prevent
these kinds of exploitation without slowing down deployment of
streetside charging infrastructure. Maybe somebody should start lobbying
the right politicians today...?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (Retractible Cords)

> Except for the fact that much of the population lives in Apartments
>  and high roise building and have neither option.

Who cares?  They can then usually walk or take the metro to work ride a
bike or use an ICE or LNG or CNG, or hydrogen.  An EV is NOT for everyone!

The Census says about 33% do not live in single-family -detached houses,
but they generally are in urban areas and so their driving is much less.
Let's say half what the typical suburban drivers do.  So now we are down
to only 16% of the transportation pie.  Lets sell EV's where they make
sense and not burden EVERY EV with the issues of a few.

> In California, many apartment dwellers with an assigned
> parking spot can now install their own charging capability,
> as long as they meet certain requirements, including accepting
liability.

That is being passed in Maryland too until we just elected a republican
governor intent on eliminating all things green and renewable...

Bob, WB4aPR
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

I think people will eventually start doing the math on EVs.


   - If I bought a Leaf now (there was a program where I could get a dealer
   invoice as a university employee) for $23K,
   - and reduced the cost of it by the fuel cost

   (Swag that as 25 mpg divided by $2.50 a gallon to yield $0.10 a mile
   time 150K miles = $15000 savings x 0.75 (to reduce for the cost of power) =
   $11250 in savings)


   - I have now bought a decent car (better than an ICE)
   - that is more than adequate for 99% of my use
   - at a cost of $11750
   - which has reduced maintenance cost and labor.

I left out any government incentives, rebates etc.

I suspect that EVs in the future will better than a RAV5EV or a current
version of the Leaf.

As soon as financing makes this possible for the vast majority of people
who can't afford to pay cash for their car we'll see a bunch more EVs in
use.

Really, EVs are cheap if you are not simply a used car buyer like myself.
I won't spend $12K on a car, but I can see the day coming when I might be
able to get a used EV that is worth having.

Maybe I should be looking at Leafs

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 11:13 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Not unlikely, though it seems to be that since the original RAV-4EV,
> investment for the most part has gone into cost reductions rather than
> range increases. IIRC, the range of the RAV4-EV was about 120 miles.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 24, 2014, at 9:53 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > I think the solution will be much more boring than that.  As battery
> capacity increases and charge time decreases, we'll simply see filling
> stations morph to charging stations.  Status quo.
> >
> > I'm sure people will continue to charge at home if they're able.  The
> rest will use "filling" stations.
> >
> > Peri
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
> > To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" 
> > Sent: 24-Nov-14 7:10:54 PM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1
> CORRECTION!)
> >
> >> Ben Goren via EV wrote:
> >>> I predict we'll see parking meters everywhere morph into charging
> >>> stations
> >>
> >> This is certainly the logical way to do it. However, logic has little
> to do with politics and business.
> >>
> >>> I also imagine there'll be much wringing of hands over figuring out
> >>> what to charge for charging as opposed to parking...
> >>
> >> Ironically, every parking meter I've ever seen already charges *way*
> more per hour than the cost of the electricity you could get from an AC
> outlet on that meter.
> >>
> >> -- Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any
> >> good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
> >> --
> >> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
> >> ___
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

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(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

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Re: [EVDL] Supercapacitors: A New Hero in the Spotlight

Super caps are always fun to imagine, but they are far from ready even for
early morning TV.

I heard Elon Musk comment that he thought there might be a possibility that
super caps could be at least useful on EVs if not a replacement for battery
cells.  He did a some research (thesis?) on super caps while working on his
physics degree.  So he has some direct knowledge - not just synthesizing
others work.

On the basis of his interest I always read whatever pops up about them.  I
guess he might revisit them after the hyperloop and VTOL electric
transcontinental aircraft are all worked out, oh yeah and a Mars colony.
If he never actually did things he comes up with, I would have to ignore
him.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 9:04 AM, len moskowitz via EV 
wrote:

> http://www.designnews.com/document.asp?doc_id=275732
>
>
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>

-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

Not unlikely, though it seems to be that since the original RAV-4EV, investment 
for the most part has gone into cost reductions rather than range increases. 
IIRC, the range of the RAV4-EV was about 120 miles.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 24, 2014, at 9:53 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> I think the solution will be much more boring than that.  As battery capacity 
> increases and charge time decreases, we'll simply see filling stations morph 
> to charging stations.  Status quo.
> 
> I'm sure people will continue to charge at home if they're able.  The rest 
> will use "filling" stations.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
> To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> 
> Sent: 24-Nov-14 7:10:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)
> 
>> Ben Goren via EV wrote:
>>> I predict we'll see parking meters everywhere morph into charging
>>> stations
>> 
>> This is certainly the logical way to do it. However, logic has little to do 
>> with politics and business.
>> 
>>> I also imagine there'll be much wringing of hands over figuring out
>>> what to charge for charging as opposed to parking...
>> 
>> Ironically, every parking meter I've ever seen already charges *way* more 
>> per hour than the cost of the electricity you could get from an AC outlet on 
>> that meter.
>> 
>> -- Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any
>> good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
>> --
>> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
>> ___
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>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (Retractible Cords)

On Nov 25, 2014, at 7:44 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> Except for the fact that much of the population lives in Apartments and high 
> roise building and have neither option.

In California, many apartment dwellers with an assigned parking spot can now 
install their own charging capability, as long as they meet certain 
requirements, including accepting liability.
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

> At least in the US, it is normal for electric utilities to have
> made it illegal for others to resell their electricity.
> ...So you can't legally sell power at a charging station without the
power company's blessing.

Maryland and other progressive states passed legislation as one of their
first actions to overrule that past condition...

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (Retractible Cords)

2014-11-25 Thread paul dove via EV

Except for the fact that much of the population lives in Apartments and high 
roise building and have neither option.

Where I live it works fine. I built a car with 40 miles of range. I plug in at 
home and at work so every time I get in it it is fully charged. I drive 20 
miles to work and it's full  by lunch on 110Volts and full again by the time I 
go home. I have plans to double the capacity but only for emergency in case I 
need to go somewhere else in the middle of the day but so far it's worked great.

 From: Robert Bruninga via EV 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2014 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (Retractible 
Cords)

> I think the solution will be much more boring than that.
>  As battery capacity increases and charge time decreases,
> we'll simply see filling stations morph to charging stations.  Status
quo.
> I'm sure people will continue to charge at home if they're able.
>  The rest will use "filling" stations.

I see exactly the opposite happening.  As the world wakes up to the fact
that an EV can maintain more than 80 miles of range a day by simply
plugging into a 120v outlet while parked at home and at work, the need for
going anywhere to charge diminishes more and more over time.

AND cars will have simple "appliance like retractible 120v cords" instead
of this silly designed-by-committee j1772 abomination for L1 charging.
(Sure J1772 is REQUIRED for L2, no questsion)... but it is silly when you
then stick a 3 prong standard 120v plug on the other end for L1!   Just
put the EVSE (for L1) safety circuit IN THE CAR and have a very easy
retractible pull-out 120v plug for when you park.

See how I did it on a LEAF:  http://aprs.org/charging-DIY.html

Going to a gas "station" makes sense when you only have to do it once a
week or so.  But no one will live with that inconvenience when they have
to do it everyday like EV's require.

And if one thinks people will buy bigger batteries just so they can go
somewhere to a "station" to charge once a week and STAND THERE while
waiting, one does not understand simple economics of time-or-money.  Why
pay  THREE times as much for a 240 mile range when you only need 80.

If you need 240, buy a plug-in hybrid.

bob, WB4APR

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"

Sent: 24-Nov-14 7:10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1
CORRECTION!)

>Ben Goren via EV wrote:
>>I predict we'll see parking meters everywhere morph into charging
>>stations
>
>This is certainly the logical way to do it. However, logic has little
>to do with politics and business.
>
>>I also imagine there'll be much wringing of hands over figuring out
>>what to charge for charging as opposed to parking...
>
>Ironically, every parking meter I've ever seen already charges *way*
>more per hour than the cost of the electricity you could get from an AC
>outlet on that meter.
>
>-- Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any
>good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
>--
>Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (Retractible Cords)

> I think the solution will be much more boring than that.
>  As battery capacity increases and charge time decreases,
> we'll simply see filling stations morph to charging stations.  Status
quo.
> I'm sure people will continue to charge at home if they're able.
>  The rest will use "filling" stations.

I see exactly the opposite happening.  As the world wakes up to the fact
that an EV can maintain more than 80 miles of range a day by simply
plugging into a 120v outlet while parked at home and at work, the need for
going anywhere to charge diminishes more and more over time.

AND cars will have simple "appliance like retractible 120v cords" instead
of this silly designed-by-committee j1772 abomination for L1 charging.
(Sure J1772 is REQUIRED for L2, no questsion)... but it is silly when you
then stick a 3 prong standard 120v plug on the other end for L1!   Just
put the EVSE (for L1) safety circuit IN THE CAR and have a very easy
retractible pull-out 120v plug for when you park.

See how I did it on a LEAF:  http://aprs.org/charging-DIY.html

Going to a gas "station" makes sense when you only have to do it once a
week or so.  But no one will live with that inconvenience when they have
to do it everyday like EV's require.

And if one thinks people will buy bigger batteries just so they can go
somewhere to a "station" to charge once a week and STAND THERE while
waiting, one does not understand simple economics of time-or-money.  Why
pay  THREE times as much for a 240 mile range when you only need 80.

If you need 240, buy a plug-in hybrid.

bob, WB4APR

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"

Sent: 24-Nov-14 7:10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1
CORRECTION!)

>Ben Goren via EV wrote:
>>I predict we'll see parking meters everywhere morph into charging
>>stations
>
>This is certainly the logical way to do it. However, logic has little
>to do with politics and business.
>
>>I also imagine there'll be much wringing of hands over figuring out
>>what to charge for charging as opposed to parking...
>
>Ironically, every parking meter I've ever seen already charges *way*
>more per hour than the cost of the electricity you could get from an AC
>outlet on that meter.
>
>-- Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any
>good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
>--
>Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

Thanks for the clarification. I meant they do not directly charge for 
electricity.

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 25, 2014, at 8:41 AM, robert winfield  wrote:
> 
> Tesla does not give it away, you pay either $2,000 (or $2,500 later) to have 
> the Supercharger enabled so you are "purchasing" energy in advance, for inter 
> city travel (between cities)
> So, will you use 50,000+ miles of prepaid electricity?
> (I have spoken with people who have trouble comprehending the differance of 
> 10-20 seconds at home to plugin to charge vs "Oh boy, free electricity, i'll 
> drive 40-60 miles (hour), fill up for an hour or half hour at a supercharger, 
> drive 40-60 miles back (another hour or so)" who dont comprehend the cost to 
> fill a battery and focus on "free")
> 
> This is EV related in thats it's charging
> 
> On Tue, 11/25/14, Paul Dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2014, 8:53 AM
> 
> I believe that is why
> Tesla gives it away to its customers.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Nov 24, 2014, at 11:45 PM, Lee Hart via
> EV 
> wrote:
>> 
>> Mark
> Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>>> And with
> parking meters charging, becoming bigger and also taking
>>> credit cards, I see a potential future
> in the merging of the two.
>> 
>> At least in the US, it is normal for
> electric utilities to have made it illegal for others to
> resell their electricity. They set themselves up with a
> legal monopoly way back in the early days when the grid was
> first being established. ("If you don't give us the
> exclusive rights to sell power, we won't your town on
> the electric grid. Sign here...")
> 
>> So you can't legally sell power at
> a charging station without the power company's
> blessing.
>> 
>> But you
> CAN charge for a parking place that just happens to provide
> "free" electricity!
>> -- 
>> Don't worry about people stealing your
> ideas. If your ideas are any
>> good,
> you'll have to ram them down people's throats. --
> Howard Aiken
>> --
> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
> ___
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> NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

2014-11-25 Thread robert winfield via EV

Tesla does not give it away, you pay either $2,000 (or $2,500 later) to have 
the Supercharger enabled so you are "purchasing" energy in advance, for inter 
city travel (between cities)
So, will you use 50,000+ miles of prepaid electricity?
(I have spoken with people who have trouble comprehending the differance of 
10-20 seconds at home to plugin to charge vs "Oh boy, free electricity, i'll 
drive 40-60 miles (hour), fill up for an hour or half hour at a supercharger, 
drive 40-60 miles back (another hour or so)" who dont comprehend the cost to 
fill a battery and focus on "free")

This is EV related in thats it's charging

On Tue, 11/25/14, Paul Dove via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2014, 8:53 AM
 
 I believe that is why
 Tesla gives it away to its customers.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 > On Nov 24, 2014, at 11:45 PM, Lee Hart via
 EV 
 wrote:
 > 
 > Mark
 Abramowitz via EV wrote:
 >> And with
 parking meters charging, becoming bigger and also taking
 >> credit cards, I see a potential future
 in the merging of the two.
 > 
 > At least in the US, it is normal for
 electric utilities to have made it illegal for others to
 resell their electricity. They set themselves up with a
 legal monopoly way back in the early days when the grid was
 first being established. ("If you don't give us the
 exclusive rights to sell power, we won't your town on
 the electric grid. Sign here...")
 >
 
 > So you can't legally sell power at
 a charging station without the power company's
 blessing.
 > 
 > But you
 CAN charge for a parking place that just happens to provide
 "free" electricity!
 > -- 
 > Don't worry about people stealing your
 ideas. If your ideas are any
 > good,
 you'll have to ram them down people's throats. --
 Howard Aiken
 > --
 >
 Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
 >
 ___
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 NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
 >
 
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[EVDL] Supercapacitors: A New Hero in the Spotlight

2014-11-25 Thread len moskowitz via EV


http://www.designnews.com/document.asp?doc_id=275732


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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)

I believe that is why Tesla gives it away to its customers.

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 24, 2014, at 11:45 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> And with parking meters charging, becoming bigger and also taking
>> credit cards, I see a potential future in the merging of the two.
> 
> At least in the US, it is normal for electric utilities to have made it 
> illegal for others to resell their electricity. They set themselves up with a 
> legal monopoly way back in the early days when the grid was first being 
> established. ("If you don't give us the exclusive rights to sell power, we 
> won't your town on the electric grid. Sign here...")
> 
> So you can't legally sell power at a charging station without the power 
> company's blessing.
> 
> But you CAN charge for a parking place that just happens to provide "free" 
> electricity!
> -- 
> Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any
> good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
> --
> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] OT: status> the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)