Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 4 Apr 2022 at 4:54, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> Anyway, no one has yet addressed whether my hypothesis is true or not:
> if you charge while the battery is warm, it will still be able to
> deliver all the kWh even when the battery has become cold (though at a
> slower rate). 
> 

And I'm not going to try, because I'm not an engineer to start with, and my 
knowledge of lithium batteries is even more limited than of lead batteries.  
However, I can speculate a bit, subject to correction from folks more 
knowledgable.

Lead batteries lose capacity when they're cold.  I don't think that lithium 
batteries do to the same extent, if at all.  However, chemical reactions run 
slower at low temperatures.  So while they may have the same or nearly the 
same amount of available capacity, you can't get it out as quickly.  So I'd 
say that that element of your hypothesis is worth considering.

I'd also guess that lithium batteries' internal resistance is higher when 
they're cold.  That would mean more energy waste, thus capacity loss.  But 
that resistance would also tend to warm up the battery, eventually at least 
partly countering the effect.

I think that a fair amount of the cold weather range loss in a lithium EV 
can be laid to higher energy use.  Lubricants are thicker; tire pressure is 
lower.  You use battery energy for cabin heating and window defogging or 
defrosting.  The day is shorter, so you're more apt to have the headlights 
on.  All that is energy that isn't available to move the car down the road, 
so of course you'll lose range. 

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I'm not sure about the newer models, but definitely no battery heater 
(or cooler) for the 2011 model.


Anyway, no one has yet addressed whether my hypothesis is true or not: 
if you charge while the battery is warm, it will still be able to 
deliver all the kWh even when the battery has become cold (though at a 
slower rate).


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: unityc...@uninets.net
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 03-Apr-22 18:49:16
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature


Peri,

I'm no chemist but I do know that batteries just do not perform well 
when cold and 20F is cold for a battery. That is why my 1994 Solectria 
came equipped with heaters in the battery boxes. It is true that Nissan 
doesn't have a heater for the battery?



On Sun, April 3, 2022 7:21 pm, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> Well, then, why is the range substantially less in cold weather ? The
> charger nor the battery don't know the discharge rate while charging.
>
> I understand that charging needs to be slower. But how does that 
affect

> capacity ?
>
> As a matter of example, during 20F weather last december, I was 
getting

> 20 miles range on the Leaf at full charge. Yesterday, charging while
> 50F, I went 30 miles and still had about 1/3 bars left.
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
>
From: "Cor van de Water" 
> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" 
> Sent: 03-Apr-22 16:32:59
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature
>
>>Peri,
>>It is the *speed*, not the *capacity* that suffers in very cold 
weather.

>>Think of it as ions moving sluggish through the lattice that makes up
>>the active material.
>>The colder, the more sluggish.
>>Forcing too much current into this can even cause faults to develop,
>>which *are* reducing the capacity permanently, not because of the 
cold

>>but because of the fault blocking the path of current in that section
>>of the lattice, taking a little bit of the total capacity out of the
>>picture.
>>That is why charging must be slow in the cold, to avoid creating 
those

>>faults, so that the capacity of the battery remains, albeit at lower
>>*power* (=speed of current in or out of the battery).
>>Hope this clarifies,
>>Cor.
>>
>>On Sun, Apr 3, 2022 at 3:50 PM Peri Hartman via EV 


>> wrote:
>>>
>>> As I understand, with most Li-ion cells, the colder the cell, the 
less

>>> charge it will take on. Correct ?
>>> But what happens if a warm battery is charged and then cools off ? 
It

>>> still has all its kWh, right ? And further, the temperature of the
>>> battery does not affect how many kWh you can get *out* of it, 
though

>>> the
>>> rate may change a bit.
>>>
>>> My 2011 Leaf has abysmal range at this point. I'm wondering if I 
were

>>> to
>>> charge during the warmest part of the day, would I get a bit more
>>> range
>>> ? I'm going to guess it won't make that much difference since the
>>> battery is in the shade (under the car) and won't warm up much over 
a

>>> few hours. But I'm still curious if the theory holds truth.
>>>
>>> Peri
>>>
>>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>>>
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Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature

[MacWrench via EV]

Peri,

I'm no chemist but I do know that batteries just do not
perform well when cold and 20F is cold for a battery. That is why my 1994
Solectria came equipped with heaters in the battery boxes. It is true that
Nissan doesn't have a heater for the battery?


On Sun,
April 3, 2022 7:21 pm, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> Well, then,
why is the range substantially less in cold weather ? The
>
charger nor the battery don't know the discharge rate while charging.
>
> I understand that charging needs to be slower. But how
does that affect
> capacity ?
>
> As a matter of
example, during 20F weather last december, I was getting
> 20
miles range on the Leaf at full charge. Yesterday, charging while
> 50F, I went 30 miles and still had about 1/3 bars left.
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ?
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> --
Original Message --
>
From: "Cor van de Water"

> To: "Peri Hartman"
; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List"

> Sent: 03-Apr-22 16:32:59
>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature
>
>>Peri,
>>It is the *speed*, not the *capacity* that
suffers in very cold weather.
>>Think of it as ions moving
sluggish through the lattice that makes up
>>the active
material.
>>The colder, the more sluggish.
>>Forcing
too much current into this can even cause faults to develop,
>>which *are* reducing the capacity permanently, not because of
the cold
>>but because of the fault blocking the path of
current in that section
>>of the lattice, taking a little bit
of the total capacity out of the
>>picture.
>>That
is why charging must be slow in the cold, to avoid creating those
>>faults, so that the capacity of the battery remains, albeit at
lower
>>*power* (=speed of current in or out of the
battery).
>>Hope this clarifies,
>>Cor.
>>
>>On Sun, Apr 3, 2022 at 3:50 PM Peri Hartman via EV

>> wrote:
>>>
>>> As I understand, with most Li-ion cells, the colder the
cell, the less
>>> charge it will take on. Correct ?
>>> But what happens if a warm battery is charged and then
cools off ? It
>>> still has all its kWh, right ? And
further, the temperature of the
>>> battery does not affect
how many kWh you can get *out* of it, though
>>> the
>>> rate may change a bit.
>>>
>>>
My 2011 Leaf has abysmal range at this point. I'm wondering if I were
>>> to
>>> charge during the warmest part of the
day, would I get a bit more
>>> range
>>> ?
I'm going to guess it won't make that much difference since the
>>> battery is in the shade (under the car) and won't warm up
much over a
>>> few hours. But I'm still curious if the
theory holds truth.
>>>
>>> Peri
>>>
>>> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ?
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
>>> No
other addresses in TO and CC fields
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE:
http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature

[paul dove via EV]

Instead of intercalating, the ions end up plating the surface of the anode. 
Charging in freezing temps can cause plating, which reduces battery capacity 
and increases Resistance 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, April 3, 2022, 7:21 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:

Well, then, why is the range substantially less in cold weather ? The 
charger nor the battery don't know the discharge rate while charging.

I understand that charging needs to be slower. But how does that affect 
capacity ?

As a matter of example, during 20F weather last december, I was getting 
20 miles range on the Leaf at full charge. Yesterday, charging while 
50F, I went 30 miles and still had about 1/3 bars left.

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 
Sent: 03-Apr-22 16:32:59
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature

>Peri,
>It is the *speed*, not the *capacity* that suffers in very cold weather.
>Think of it as ions moving sluggish through the lattice that makes up
>the active material.
>The colder, the more sluggish.
>Forcing too much current into this can even cause faults to develop,
>which *are* reducing the capacity permanently, not because of the cold
>but because of the fault blocking the path of current in that section
>of the lattice, taking a little bit of the total capacity out of the
>picture.
>That is why charging must be slow in the cold, to avoid creating those
>faults, so that the capacity of the battery remains, albeit at lower
>*power* (=speed of current in or out of the battery).
>Hope this clarifies,
>Cor.
>
>On Sun, Apr 3, 2022 at 3:50 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>>
>>  As I understand, with most Li-ion cells, the colder the cell, the less
>>  charge it will take on. Correct ?
>>  But what happens if a warm battery is charged and then cools off ? It
>>  still has all its kWh, right ? And further, the temperature of the
>>  battery does not affect how many kWh you can get *out* of it, though the
>>  rate may change a bit.
>>
>>  My 2011 Leaf has abysmal range at this point. I'm wondering if I were to
>>  charge during the warmest part of the day, would I get a bit more range
>>  ? I'm going to guess it won't make that much difference since the
>>  battery is in the shade (under the car) and won't warm up much over a
>>  few hours. But I'm still curious if the theory holds truth.
>>
>>  Peri
>>
>>  << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>>
>>  ___
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Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Well, then, why is the range substantially less in cold weather ? The 
charger nor the battery don't know the discharge rate while charging.


I understand that charging needs to be slower. But how does that affect 
capacity ?


As a matter of example, during 20F weather last december, I was getting 
20 miles range on the Leaf at full charge. Yesterday, charging while 
50F, I went 30 miles and still had about 1/3 bars left.


<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 03-Apr-22 16:32:59
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature


Peri,
It is the *speed*, not the *capacity* that suffers in very cold weather.
Think of it as ions moving sluggish through the lattice that makes up
the active material.
The colder, the more sluggish.
Forcing too much current into this can even cause faults to develop,
which *are* reducing the capacity permanently, not because of the cold
but because of the fault blocking the path of current in that section
of the lattice, taking a little bit of the total capacity out of the
picture.
That is why charging must be slow in the cold, to avoid creating those
faults, so that the capacity of the battery remains, albeit at lower
*power* (=speed of current in or out of the battery).
Hope this clarifies,
Cor.

On Sun, Apr 3, 2022 at 3:50 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:


 As I understand, with most Li-ion cells, the colder the cell, the less
 charge it will take on. Correct ?
 But what happens if a warm battery is charged and then cools off ? It
 still has all its kWh, right ? And further, the temperature of the
 battery does not affect how many kWh you can get *out* of it, though the
 rate may change a bit.

 My 2011 Leaf has abysmal range at this point. I'm wondering if I were to
 charge during the warmest part of the day, would I get a bit more range
 ? I'm going to guess it won't make that much difference since the
 battery is in the shade (under the car) and won't warm up much over a
 few hours. But I'm still curious if the theory holds truth.

 Peri

 << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

 ___
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Re: [EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Peri,
It is the *speed*, not the *capacity* that suffers in very cold weather.
Think of it as ions moving sluggish through the lattice that makes up
the active material.
The colder, the more sluggish.
Forcing too much current into this can even cause faults to develop,
which *are* reducing the capacity permanently, not because of the cold
but because of the fault blocking the path of current in that section
of the lattice, taking a little bit of the total capacity out of the
picture.
That is why charging must be slow in the cold, to avoid creating those
faults, so that the capacity of the battery remains, albeit at lower
*power* (=speed of current in or out of the battery).
Hope this clarifies,
Cor.

On Sun, Apr 3, 2022 at 3:50 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> As I understand, with most Li-ion cells, the colder the cell, the less
> charge it will take on. Correct ?
> But what happens if a warm battery is charged and then cools off ? It
> still has all its kWh, right ? And further, the temperature of the
> battery does not affect how many kWh you can get *out* of it, though the
> rate may change a bit.
>
> My 2011 Leaf has abysmal range at this point. I'm wondering if I were to
> charge during the warmest part of the day, would I get a bit more range
> ? I'm going to guess it won't make that much difference since the
> battery is in the shade (under the car) and won't warm up much over a
> few hours. But I'm still curious if the theory holds truth.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
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[EVDL] kWh versus charging temperature

[Peri Hartman via EV]

As I understand, with most Li-ion cells, the colder the cell, the less 
charge it will take on. Correct ?
But what happens if a warm battery is charged and then cools off ? It 
still has all its kWh, right ? And further, the temperature of the 
battery does not affect how many kWh you can get *out* of it, though the 
rate may change a bit.


My 2011 Leaf has abysmal range at this point. I'm wondering if I were to 
charge during the warmest part of the day, would I get a bit more range 
? I'm going to guess it won't make that much difference since the 
battery is in the shade (under the car) and won't warm up much over a 
few hours. But I'm still curious if the theory holds truth.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

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