Re: [EVDL] EVSE needed> Canberra.ca Tesla driver has to wait overnight just to get a multi-hr charge

[John Lindsay via EV]

The inland route from Adelaide to Sydney via the "riverland" isn't well served 
with charging infrastructure yet but the Australian Electric Vehicle 
Association (AEVA) has a few activist members who have been convincing 
businesses in rural towns to install 22 kilowatt three phase power outlets that 
Teslas can use with a suitable charging cable. Plugshare shows lots of these 
now. 

(We do 3 x 240 volt relative to neutral/ground 120 degree phases in Australia 
like most of Europe.)

It's an exciting time to drive a production EV in Australia!

I drove my Tesla between Adelaide and Melbourne recently. 800km with only one 
Supercharger on the route :-( Tesla are rolling out two more Superchargers this 
year which will shave about three hours off the drive time making it similar to 
the ICE 9ish hours. 

John Lindsay (in Adelaide, Australia) 

> On 30 Aug 2017, at 7:24 pm, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.sunraysiadaily.com.au/story/4870358/electric-car-driver-short-circuited/
> Electric car driver short-circuited
> 22 Aug 2017  Tyrone Dalton
> 
> [image  / Louise Donges
> http://nnimgt-a.akamaihd.net/transform/v1/crop/frm/storypad-mJpm52jWVuArAFdazE3qPb/02bdf7eb-61cc-4ac2-bd7c-b156647e3b87.jpg/r3_60_1178_724_w1200_h678_fmax.jpg
> Darryl Bourke, of Canberra, with his electric car
> ]
> 
> MILDURA has a long way to go if it is to meet the demand of an electric car
> future, Tesla driver and enthusiast Darryl Bourke says.
> 
> Passing through Mildura last week, the Canberra resident said he was forced
> to park his car at Azzco Engineering overnight so he could connect to
> three-phase power and charge his car so he could drive 291km to Hay.
> 
> “For me to charge up it’s not just fill the petrol and drive away again.
> I’ve got to connect in and I’m there for hours – so I’d buy a coffee, stay
> overnight, walk around the shops and have a meal, so there is economic
> benefit of having a charge point in regional towns,” Mr Bourke said.
> [© 2017 Fairfax Media]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
> http://evdl.org/evln/
> 
> 
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to acrisp ?

[John Lindsay via EV]

22kw from 3 x 240 volt phases at 32 amps each. The EVSE signals amps not watts. 
The car draws 7kw single phase and 22kw three phase. 

At least that's what my Australian Tesla does. Euro cars have Mennekes sockets 
with three live pins not j1772 or Tesla proprietary sockets. 

John Lindsay

> On 12 Jul 2017, at 8:14 am, Lawrence Harris via EV  wrote:
> 
> The European smart ED supports 22kW charge rate, we only get 3.3kW with a 
> measly 7.2kW on the 2017 models.
> 
> So a Europan smart could maybe ask for 22kW from a 7.2kW EVSE which if it 
> failed to limit the current might overheat and …
> 
> Seems unlikely the EVSE would fail and the beaker would fail and then the 
> fire jump to the car and cause all this damage.  More likely there was a 
> short in the car or someone torched it.
> 
> My takeaway is the plastic in these items needs to have fire resistance added 
> so it can’t burn.
> 
> Regards,
> Lawrence Harris
> lhar...@haritech.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jul 11, 2017, at 15:03, David Kerzel via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> In your example the EVSE is set for 40 amps providing 32 Amps via the PILOT
>> signal but powered by 30 Amp circuit.  If the car could use 32 amps the 30
>> amp breaker even with tolerance should trip in about an hour.  Can the car
>> in question charge at 32 Amps?  
>> I am still confused by how the EVSE even if it was defective or overloaded
>> in some way caused the car to burn.  The car should only accept the maximum
>> amount of power the on board charger is rated for and that has nothing to do
>> with the EVSE.
>> I suspect the burning car burned the EVSE.  I find it hard to believe a
>> listed EVSE mounted on a wall would burn with enough intensity to set a
>> vehicle on fire.
>> David Kerzel
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
>> via EV
>> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 7:44 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
>> acrisp ?
>> 
>> Not true, the EVSE is supposed to limit the charging current to what is safe
>> to draw from the electrical connection.
>> For example, a 240V 30A circuit must be protected by the EVSE telling the
>> car that it can only draw 24A (80% of 30A) continuous.
>> The EVSE needs to select the proper duty cycle of the pilot signal to convey
>> this to the EV.
>> If a 30A circuit is attached to an EVSE that expects a 40A circuit, it will
>> tell the EV to draw up to 32A, overloading the circuit.
>> 
>> Besides a mis-match like that (which I have once encountered myself) there
>> are other concerns, such as a worn, damaged or corroded contact in the
>> charging plug, either of the EVSE or the car.
>> And then there is the ever-present danger of a failing wire in the cord.
>> This is not exclusively a problem from EV and EVSE, as my colleague had a
>> small fire in his house this last winter due to the wire at the back of the
>> wall plug starting to break internally and the remaining strands overheated
>> to the point of setting the cord on fire.
>> 
>> I have had similar experience with an outlet in a previous home, where the
>> wire coming out of the wall probably was nicked before being attached, so
>> after successfully washing loads of laundry for years (water was heated
>> electrically so the washer drew about 12 Amps continuously for an hour or so
>> during a hot wash
>> cycle) suddenly one day the bathroom filled with smoke and the wire inside
>> the outlet burned clean through.
>> There had been no movement of that wire, so no gradual breakage - this was
>> purely a resistive heating induced failure.
>> 
>> Besides the EVSE itself, the circuit it is fed with and the charging plug
>> contacts, also the circuitry inside the car (AC powered HV battery charger)
>> can fail, for example an improperly tightened wire or a loss of water
>> cooling overheating the charger, which subsequently fails and burns...
>> So many different ways to let the magic smoke out...
>> Cor.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Kerzel via EV
>> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 12:36 PM
>> To: 'brucedp5'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to
>> acrisp ?
>> 
>> What does the EVSE have to do with this?  The car makes the decisions.
>> The EVSE is just a super safe power cord.
>> David Kerzel
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
>> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2017 4:56 AM
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Subject: [EVDL] ? Is this really a Smart Fortwo ED EV that burnt to a crisp
>> ?
>> 
>> % First look at:
>> 
>> 
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EV-fire-Fau
>> lty-
>> wall-mounted-EVSE-completely-burns-Smart42ED-EV-uk-td4687296.html
>> EV-fire: Faulty wall-mounted EVSE completely burns (?Smart42ED?) EV.uk
>> Electr

Re: [EVDL] Schneeveis battery load (was: Testing Leaf Modules)

[John Lindsay via EV]

You might like to run heavy gauge wire to the bucket and the thinner resistance 
wire entirely in the water. The insulated wire may melt outside the water. 

John Lindsay

> On 24 Dec 2016, at 5:20 pm, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> With this type of load, remember that the rod or pipe is electrically live. 
> And so is the water that touches it!
> 
> I like using a coil of insulated copper wire, dunked in a bucket of water. 
> The wire can be considerably undersized for the current listed in a wire 
> table -- we *want* it to have excessive voltage drop and run hot. 
> the water keeps the insulation from melting.
> 
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVSE's everywhere or long range batteries?

[John Lindsay via EV]

At Mitsubishi's offices in Adelaide they have a lovely Chademo out the front 
that hardly ever gets used and about twenty L1 standard outdoor power outlets 
that the staff use all day. 

John Lindsay

> On 7 Nov. 2016, at 3:15 am, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> Yes, our EV club recommends one L2 for every DOZEN L1 outlets installed at
> these 8 hour parking lots (Workplace, Transportation hubs, park-n-rides,
> etc)
> 
> And L1's even with cords do NOT need any infrastructure or internet or
> billing.  The employee just pays $6 per pay period for the priveledge.  The
> Federal Government has now made that policy for government employees.  And
> THAT is sustainable no matter how many EV's we get.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Meier [mailto:m...@comcast.net]
> Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2016 9:01 AM
> To: Robert Bruninga; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVSE's everywhere or long range batteries?
> 
> *Some* L2 would still be desirable.
> It can help when there are not enough L1/outlets.
> But sometimes you want to make an unplanned trip and an hour or two of L2 on
> site can make the difference.
> --
> -Chris
> 
> On November 6, 2016 7:35:41 AM CST, Robert Bruninga via EV
>  wrote:
>>> Sorry Robert, I completely disagree with you.
>>> most people ultimately won't care if they are driving an ICE or an
>> EV,
>>> they bought the car for transportation and that's it.
>>> If they need to go to a quick charge station once a week, that's
>>> status quo for them. No big deal.
>> 
>> I think many people are smarter than that.  Once people with a daily 20
>> or
>> 30 mile commute realize that they are spending an extra $15,000 for a
>> 200
>> mile battery that they never use, when a $5,000 can do the same job we
>> will start to see the practicality come back in to the car purchasing
>> decision.
>> 
>>> there are plenty of people who will never have a fixed location to
>> charge.
>> 
>> And so they will likely continue to need an ICE.  But if the other 80%
>> of us switch to electric look what a boon to emissions reduction that
>> will be.  And those tht can afford to buy a 200 mile EV will.  But they
>> should be aware that there will never be enough fast chargers and they
>> will waste a good portion of their lives trying to find a place to
>> charge and then have to waste a half hour waiting for it to work.
>> 
>> Most people are smarter than that.
>> 
>>> At some point, the cost of building very high speed level 3 charge
>> stations
>>> will be cheaper than providing L2 charging in parking places.
>> 
>> There is lunacy in that vision as well.  It makes no sense to put L2
>> chargers in workplace, airport, trainstation parking spaces.  Or any
>> place where cars spend 8 hours a day parked.  The L2 is a complete
>> waste there, when a standard 120v oulet can do the same job.  In 8
>> hours, an L1 ouitlet (or cord) can provide 40 miles of range.  More
>> than the daily usage of the average american.
>> 
>> And cars spend 23 hours a day parked somewhere.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
>>> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>>> Cc:
>>> Sent: 05-Nov-16 9:20:07 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Local dealer $1k-deposit-signup(reserve): Bolt
>> EV's In
>>> Production
>>> 
>>> Seriously?
 
 if you don't have access to an EVSE, you can't charge your Bolt.
> 
 
 It is foolish for anyone to buy an EV if he does not have a parking
>> place
 and a place to charge it everyday. (At home or at work).  Fast
>> charging is
 only for emergencies and trips.  It is UNSUSTAINABLE to think that
>> EV's
 are
 going to be fueled using the old gas-station model (which is the
>> ultimate
 in inconveneince that the EV (charged while parked at home or at
>> work)  is
 best at eliminating!)
 
 Bob, WB4APR
 
 On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 8:02 AM, paul dove via EV 
 wrote:
 
 Because the government forced them to make it
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:00 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV
>> > 
> wrote:
>> 
>> I looked at the Bolt last night on line, spent a little while
>> going
> thru
> the
>> stats, various reviews etc.
>> 
>> One thing that totally astounded me was that the CSS Inlet and
>> HV
> charging set
>> up costs about $500 and ALSO the Level 1 charger costs another
>> $500 or
> so. That
>> means that if you don't have access to an EVSE, you can't charge
>> your
> Bolt.
>> 
>> Come on now folks, is this company really serious about entering
>> into
> the EV
>> market? Why produce an EV it you won't even supply a way to
>> charge
> it...
>> 
>> My 2 watts opinion...
>> 
>> Rush Dougherty
>> Tucson AZ 85719
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Alternatives for Golf Cart and Forklift batteries

[John Lindsay via EV]

>From the paper "
small amounts of stack pressure lead to increased capacity retention over 
uncon- strained cells. 

"

Use some pressure. 

Cheers,

John Lindsay

> On 4 Sep 2016, at 6:37 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> You might want to rethink that theory.
> 
> https://www.princeton.edu/~spikelab/papers/103.pdf
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 3, 2016, at 3:20 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Paul,
>> Every time the cell is at the top of charge, it will expand.
>> Don't compress and you will likely burst it in short order.
>> I have taken apart packs that were used *with* the Leaf BMS
>> so charging has always kept them under 4.115V max but when I remove
>> the nuts that hold a stack in compression, I cannot get the nuts back on
>> unless I use heavy clamps to compress the stack back to original size.
>> If Nissan was happy to add heavy steel end plates to an EV that needs to
>> be as light as possible, just to keep the modules compressed, then who
>> am I to decide that I should omit those?
>> But don't take my word for it, try it yourself.
>> And let us know how you fare.
>> 
>> BTW, I have seen what happens to modules that are overcharged to 4.3
>> Volts.
>> Even with the heavy compression, some cells managed to generate enough
>> pressure to buckle some of the module walls and the guys that took the
>> pack apart had to make sure they were not in the line of "fire" when
>> they undid the nuts of the end plate - nut and wrench went flying!
>> At the normal 4.115V max, this excess will not happen, but the pressure
>> can easily be enough to damage the thin module sheet metal walls that
>> are not design to contain pressure, only to keep the cells aligned. You
>> can also pull the bus bars off the cells due to the working of the stack
>> of cells when uncompressed. Take your chances or follow the Nissan
>> design, it is your own choice and your own quality of work.
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Cor van de Water 
>> Chief Scientist 
>> Proxim Wireless 
>> 
>> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
>> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
>> 
>> http://www.proxim.com
>> 
>> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
>> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
>> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>> this message is prohibited.
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: paul dove [mailto:dov...@bellsouth.net] 
>> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2016 12:46 PM
>> To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Alternatives for Golf Cart and Forklift batteries
>> 
>> 
>>> Lithium stack to the frame of the lift, you are aware that the Leaf
>>> cells (and probably other Li cells as well) must remain under
>>> compression or risk bursting the cell pouches open, inside the
>> modules?
>> 
>> I don't believe that at all what proof do you have the cells need to be
>> compressed? A cell should only expand when it's damaged.
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Re: [EVDL] Current limiting

[John Lindsay via EV]

A switchmode charger or a big resistor. I have used radiator elements and light 
bulbs. One solution is expensive and efficient the other isn't. 

jsl

John Lindsay

> On 6 Jun 2016, at 6:07 AM, Gary Krysztopik via EV  wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have any cheap tricks for regularly connecting two large 12 vdc
> packs together (one stationary and one mobile) and limiting inrush  current
> when they are at different SOC?  They both have huge current capability but
> I need it for energy vs power so one has small wires and fuses.
> 
> Thanks,
> Gary
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Re: [EVDL] Modified Sine Wave Heating

[John Lindsay via EV]

We use them under people in Australia. Not recommended to be left on when 
you're in bed but folks do. 

John Lindsay

> On 4 Jun 2016, at 9:32 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 3 Jun 2016 at 22:39, Bill Dennis via EV wrote:
>> 
>> I've see Lee Hart's description of using an electric blanket under a battery
>> pack for heating.  Does anyone know if the controllers for these blankets 
>> will
>> work with a modified sine wave inverter?  That is, if the blanket's little
>> control unit that allows you do adjust the heat setting and has an automatic
>> shut-off timer will work if powered by a modified sine wave inverter.
> 
> Not that I mean to answer for Lee, but - maybe.  
> 
> One issue that should be OK - assuming that the thermostat is a traditional 
> mechanical type - is its ability to handle your inverter's output wave. 
> 
> "Modified sine wave" inverters should really be called "modified square 
> wave" because they're closer to that.  But the wave still crosses zero volts 
> 120 times a second.  That's what you need for the thermostat to manage 
> opening without welding its contacts, which is what would probably happen if 
> you tried to use it on DC.  
> 
> If the blanket has some kind of electronic controller, instead of a 
> mechanical thermostat, then I don't know.
> 
> I have some other concerns.  One problem I see is that an electric blanket 
> thermostat responds to room air temperature.  It cycles on and off every few 
> minutes or so (coarse PWM), with more on-time as the room temperature falls. 
> Seems to me that it'd be tough to make it hold a consistent battery 
> temperature, since it wouldn't be able to sense the actual battery 
> temperature.
> 
> Also, the thermostat isn't designed for automotive use, where it might be 
> exposed to the elements and lots of vibration.
> 
> Finally, I'd be concerned that an electric blanket isn't designed to have 
> weight on it, it's meant to be placed OVER a person.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] SteveS wants to plug-in his Volt pih at or near his destination hotel ...

[John Lindsay via EV]

Exactly! 

A sausage and ketchup or as we say a snag and sauce.

And these lads are wearing thongs and shorts:

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/ef5b048f7a5ba2843772fb854d89dd16 


The thongs (footwear) are not considered acceptable dress in airline club 
lounges.

Back on topic, Plugshare allows for feedback to be left about sites so if you 
discover a site is no longer a friendly charging site just put a note in so the 
next would be user can see that it’s no longer useful.

Cheers,

jsl

> On 28 Apr 2016, at 7:00 PM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> 
> BTW this might be what John Lindsay was 'snag' ing on (an Aussie repast)
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/felix42/2113180643
> 

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Re: [EVDL] Hotel Chargers

[John Lindsay via EV]

So amusing to see Americans having language difficulties. It's usually me 
getting blank looks when I'm standing in my thongs and shorts asking for sauce 
to go on my snag. 

I would send a picture of the power outlet I'm looking for. 

On topic but in another country, we have lovely three phase 32 amp 240 volt 
outlets in Australia that my Tesla turns into 20kw of charging with a suitable 
adaptor. Or 10kw with the supplied charging cable and a bit of stuffing around. 
 Yum! Finding them is an interesting challenge but they are often installed at 
places like motels for building trades to run a switchboard. Fairgrounds are 
turning out to have them too. They are usually only used for a couple of days a 
year and the municipality often hires space in them out for sports  clubs and 
RVs so access is easier than it might otherwise be. Often you just leave cash 
to cover the cost of power or the powered camp site fee, whichever is more, in 
the honour box. 

I'm also aware of some guys from Perth who are about to drive across the 
Nullarbor to Adelaide, about two thousand miles with most of it unpopulated. 
They sent power outlets to road houses (service stations in the middle of 
nowhere that sell fuel, food and often accommodation, sometimes powered with 
their own massive generator) and to camping grounds. It's going to be possible 
to drive a Tesla from Perth to Brisbane years before Tesla finish installing 
superchargers. Admittedly the recharging stops add about four days to the 
Nullarbor trip but hey, don't we all love watching our cars charge? 

Cheers,

John Lindsay

> On 28 Apr 2016, at 10:42 AM, Harsha Godavari via EV  wrote:
> 
> I wonder if you said, "I need to plug my car in" instead of , " I need to 
> charge my car" would you have found more cooperation? 
> 
> regards 
> harsha godavari 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "via EV"  
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 12:35:51 AM 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hotel Chargers 
> 
> Tried Ramada - same basic conversation, but got transferred to someone who 
> wanted to sell me a 'getaway package'. 
> I've emailed both organizations. 
> 
> I realize I can wing it and ask for a 120V outlet, but how is that grocery 
> stores, etc are putting in charge stations and hotels don't? I would think 
> hotels would be the first place you'd see chargers: it's a great perk to 
> advertise, if I'm stopping at hotel - I probably really need to charge, the 
> cost is small compared to the room charge, it makes them look 'modern', etc. 
> 
> SteveS 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla's (cuckoo) EVSE grants ...

[John Lindsay via EV]

There is a thriving business in the USA converting Tesla UMC portable charging 
cables into J1772. Just chop off the plug and attach a J1772 plug. 

I am in Australia and now have a Model S. Tesla use the Mennekes plug which 
supports three phase 230/240/250 volt power that is reasonably common here. It 
also supports single phase charging. 

I have made a J1772 to Mennekes adaptor that works perfectly. I can suck 240 
volts at 32 amps from public charging stations which is handy for holiday trips 
to places where that infrastructure has been supplied by local government. 

I have heard via the local EV association mailing list that several people have 
made the opposite to allow charging of Leafs and iMievs from Tesla destination 
chargers. Given the electricity is supplied by the venues and there are only 
800 Teslas in Australia this doesn't seem unreasonable. 

You need to read through a fair bit of misinformation and irrelevant bumf but 
eventually you get to the bloke at the end who has done it. 

http://forums.aeva.asn.au/forums/tesla-hpwc-adaptor-j1772_topic4834.html 

This is in Australia but I can't see why Tesla would design multiple boards for 
the wall adaptors if they didn't need to.

John Lindsay

> On 20 Apr 2016, at 1:35 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:
> 
> I have the suspicion (never even charged at a Tesla station and
> certainly never been exposed to the protocol) that if the engineers at
> Tesla are worth their salt, that even though the chargers are not
> networked, they probably will ask the car to identify itself before
> starting a charging session,
> because without such a handshake, what keeps the world from charging for
> free at the Tesla chargers?
> It is relatively easy to create an asymmetric encrypted authentication,
> whereby you can easily check with the public key that it is a valid
> authentication, without being able to *generate* a valid authentication,
> since that requires the private key. We do this to avoid hackers from
> buying the lowest cost version of our product and upgrading it to a
> higher featured model, since the license key is encrypted in such a way.
> Tesla can generate keys for their vehicles that are used for the
> communication with the chargers (and other identification purposes).
> 
> So, while it may be a great learning experience to try and
> reverse-engineer the Tesla charging protocol in similar way that the
> Leaf was used to record Chademo charging sessions, don't be surprised if
> there are encrypted messages that will prevent you from even playing
> back a recorded charging session to a charging station, to lure it into
> giving you a charge.
> 
> Hope this gives some insight,
> 
> Cor van de Water 
> Chief Scientist 
> Proxim Wireless 
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
> 
> http://www.proxim.com
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Brannan
> via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 8:39 PM
> To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla's (cuckoo) EVSE grants ...
> 
> Sounds like a great opportunity for an entrepreneur - that HPWC coupler
> to
> j1772 adaptor. Kickstarter or indiegogo?
> Tom
> 
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 2:13 PM, brucedp5 via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> With all the coming election noise, and the possiblity of no more EVSE
>> grants ringing in my ears, on a search I could not find a renewal of
> the
>> U.S. Fed grant to cover some of the cost of installing public EVSE as
>> before.
>> 
>> But I found a self-promo news item touting a business' new EVSE. I
> noticed
>> their EVSE were two (proprietary) Tesla HPWC EVSE, that no other
> plugin but
>> a Tesla EV can use.
>> 
>> I sent a message off to the business' contact (a NJ mall), letting
> them
>> know
>> that non-Tesla drivers are going to feel rebuffed, thus they could
> lose
>> plugin driver business.
>> 
>> They kindly replied letting me know their HPWC EVSE was part of a
> Tesla
>> Destination Charging grant (Tesla paid for it). See
> http://www.teslarati.com/becoming-tesla-destination-charging-participant
> /
>> Becoming a Tesla Destination Charging Participant
>> Feb 25, 2016
>> [link
>> https://teslafactory.wufoo.com/forms/q7b8imo1g0og2v/
>> contact Tesla's Destination Charging program
>> ]
>> 
>> BTW there is no HPWC to j1772 adaptors drivers can buy, so when HPWC
> are
>> installed, j1772 L2 drivers are shut-out. While I am not against
> Tesla,
>> helping to install 'Tesla-only' (proprietary) EVSE is the same problem
>> drivers had back in the

Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] Re: Tesla's (cuckoo) EVSE grants ...

[John Lindsay via EV]

Ah, serve me right for reading posts backwards! This is an elegant solution :-) 

John Lindsay

> On 20 Apr 2016, at 4:35 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:
> 
> Ah, I was mistaking the HPWC for the Supercharger,
> but in fact it is the electrically J1772 compatible,
> only mechanically different outlet (sleeker and more flexible,
> due to the use of multiple thinner wires instead of a single
> large gauge wire for each current conductor).
> For that sleek Tesla variant of the J1772 it should be simple
> (read: 3D printing effort) to manufacture a converter to standard J1772.
> 
> The Redneck (no insult intended) way of dealing with this problem
> would probably be to cut off the Tesla plug with 1 foot of cable,
> attach a J1772 plug and recepticle in line and voila: both Tesla and
> all other cars can charge at the HPWC.
> 
> Cor van de Water 
> Chief Scientist 
> Proxim Wireless 
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
> 
> http://www.proxim.com
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mike Nickerson [mailto:m...@nickersonranch.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 11:38 PM
> To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Cor van de Water
> via EV
> Subject: Re: [SPAM?] Re: [EVDL] Tesla's (cuckoo) EVSE grants ...
> 
> Hi Cor,
> 
> I'm certain that what you describe or something similar is being used by
> the Tesla owned SuperCharger stations.  The SuperCharger access was
> included in the higher end models, but a purchased option on the base
> model.  Because of that, I'm sure they have authentication on the
> SuperCharger stations.
> 
> However, the HPWC are different.  They are privately owned and often
> purchased by owners for installation in their garage.  Even if furnished
> or funded partially by Tesla, they are still controlled by the local
> business.  The HPWC don't have any network connection of way to
> authenticate or charge for access.
> 
> The way that Tesla did their connector, it is more convenient to use the
> proprietary connector.  Using the J1772 adapter is another part that has
> to be installed and removed, and another step.  The adapter must be
> removed to close the charging access door.
> 
> There are news stories about a prototype HPWC to J1772 adapter being
> tested.  Nothing recently that I saw, though.  See:
> http://longtailpipe.com/2015/11/09/new-ev-charging-adapter-lets-j1772-ca
> r-owners-use-tesla-hpwc-charging-stations-cool-or-theft/
> 
> Mike
> 
> On April 19, 2016 10:05:04 PM MDT, Cor van de Water via EV
>  wrote:
>> I have the suspicion (never even charged at a Tesla station and
>> certainly never been exposed to the protocol) that if the engineers at
>> Tesla are worth their salt, that even though the chargers are not
>> networked, they probably will ask the car to identify itself before
>> starting a charging session,
>> because without such a handshake, what keeps the world from charging
>> for
>> free at the Tesla chargers?
>> It is relatively easy to create an asymmetric encrypted authentication,
>> whereby you can easily check with the public key that it is a valid
>> authentication, without being able to *generate* a valid
>> authentication,
>> since that requires the private key. We do this to avoid hackers from
>> buying the lowest cost version of our product and upgrading it to a
>> higher featured model, since the license key is encrypted in such a
>> way.
>> Tesla can generate keys for their vehicles that are used for the
>> communication with the chargers (and other identification purposes).
>> 
>> So, while it may be a great learning experience to try and
>> reverse-engineer the Tesla charging protocol in similar way that the
>> Leaf was used to record Chademo charging sessions, don't be surprised
>> if
>> there are encrypted messages that will prevent you from even playing
>> back a recorded charging session to a charging station, to lure it into
>> giving you a charge.
>> 
>> Hope this gives some insight,
>> 
>> Cor van de Water 
>> Chief Scientist 
>> Proxim Wireless 
>> 
>> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
>> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
>> 
>> http://www.proxim.com
>> 
>> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential
>> and
>> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you
>> received
>> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>> this message is prohibited.
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: E

Re: [EVDL] Tesla's (cuckoo) EVSE grants ...

[John Lindsay via EV]

And I forgot, you need an enterprising Chinese manufacturer to churn out lots 
of proprietary Tesla charging sockets. I suspect this is underway. 

John Lindsay

> On 20 Apr 2016, at 10:56 PM, John Lindsay via EV  wrote:
> 
> There is a thriving business in the USA converting Tesla UMC portable 
> charging cables into J1772. Just chop off the plug and attach a J1772 plug. 
> 
> I am in Australia and now have a Model S. Tesla use the Mennekes plug which 
> supports three phase 230/240/250 volt power that is reasonably common here. 
> It also supports single phase charging. 
> 
> I have made a J1772 to Mennekes adaptor that works perfectly. I can suck 240 
> volts at 32 amps from public charging stations which is handy for holiday 
> trips to places where that infrastructure has been supplied by local 
> government. 
> 
> I have heard via the local EV association mailing list that several people 
> have made the opposite to allow charging of Leafs and iMievs from Tesla 
> destination chargers. Given the electricity is supplied by the venues and 
> there are only 800 Teslas in Australia this doesn't seem unreasonable. 
> 
> You need to read through a fair bit of misinformation and irrelevant bumf but 
> eventually you get to the bloke at the end who has done it. 
> 
> http://forums.aeva.asn.au/forums/tesla-hpwc-adaptor-j1772_topic4834.html 
> 
> This is in Australia but I can't see why Tesla would design multiple boards 
> for the wall adaptors if they didn't need to.
> 
> John Lindsay
> 
>> On 20 Apr 2016, at 1:35 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I have the suspicion (never even charged at a Tesla station and
>> certainly never been exposed to the protocol) that if the engineers at
>> Tesla are worth their salt, that even though the chargers are not
>> networked, they probably will ask the car to identify itself before
>> starting a charging session,
>> because without such a handshake, what keeps the world from charging for
>> free at the Tesla chargers?
>> It is relatively easy to create an asymmetric encrypted authentication,
>> whereby you can easily check with the public key that it is a valid
>> authentication, without being able to *generate* a valid authentication,
>> since that requires the private key. We do this to avoid hackers from
>> buying the lowest cost version of our product and upgrading it to a
>> higher featured model, since the license key is encrypted in such a way.
>> Tesla can generate keys for their vehicles that are used for the
>> communication with the chargers (and other identification purposes).
>> 
>> So, while it may be a great learning experience to try and
>> reverse-engineer the Tesla charging protocol in similar way that the
>> Leaf was used to record Chademo charging sessions, don't be surprised if
>> there are encrypted messages that will prevent you from even playing
>> back a recorded charging session to a charging station, to lure it into
>> giving you a charge.
>> 
>> Hope this gives some insight,
>> 
>> Cor van de Water 
>> Chief Scientist 
>> Proxim Wireless 
>> 
>> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
>> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
>> 
>> http://www.proxim.com
>> 
>> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
>> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
>> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
>> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
>> this message is prohibited.
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Brannan
>> via EV
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 8:39 PM
>> To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla's (cuckoo) EVSE grants ...
>> 
>> Sounds like a great opportunity for an entrepreneur - that HPWC coupler
>> to
>> j1772 adaptor. Kickstarter or indiegogo?
>> Tom
>> 
>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 2:13 PM, brucedp5 via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> With all the coming election noise, and the possiblity of no more EVSE
>>> grants ringing in my ears, on a search I could not find a renewal of
>> the
>>> U.S. Fed grant to cover some of the cost of installing public EVSE as
>>> before.
>>> 
>>> But I found a self-promo news item touting a business' new EVSE. I
>> noticed
>>> their EVSE were two (proprieta

Re: [EVDL] $12/30min L3 EVSE @7 Spinx station & convenience stores

[John Lindsay via EV]

We dream of electricity that cheap in Australia. 

Now that I drive a Tesla and not a little conversion I'm noticing that cost a 
little more. Solar panels, battery and inverter just for the car are on the 
way.  

John Lindsay

> On 4 Apr 2016, at 10:16 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 3 Apr 2016 at 0:56, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>> 
>> $11.95 if a charge were to take 30 minutes.
> 
> For a 30kWh battery that's about 34 cents per kWh, allowing for 85% charging 
> efficiency.  There are places where just the electricty costs that much.  
> (But not where I live.)
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"

[John Lindsay via EV]

There are other ion paths from impurities in the electrodes and electrolyte 
that allow charge to flow in the other direction thus closing the circuit.

John Lindsay
johnslind...@mac.com
+61403577711

> On 24 Jun 2015, at 6:24 am, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> Just so you know you are getting over my head but this is the way I 
> understand it.
> Inside a battery plain electrons can't travel around because it takes too 
> much energy to put a plain electron in solution. Electrons can only travel 
> inside the battery via charged chemicals, ions, which can dissolve off the 
> electrodes. The chemical reaction is what pushes the electrons inside toward 
> the negative end, because the electrodes at the two ends are made of 
> different materials, which have different chemical stability. 
> 
> 
>  From: Peri Hartman 
> To: paul dove ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>  
> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 3:34 PM
> Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"
> 
> So, let me try to paraphrase this.  Are you saying that
> - the electrolyte can only conduct ions,
> - with an open circuit (nothing connected to the terminals), no 
> electrons can move from one side to the other,
> - therefore, with an open circuit, there can be no loss of charge over 
> time?
> 
> In theory, that sounds solid.  However, what if there is some internal 
> leakage of electrons?  What if the electrolyte is not a perfect 
> insulator?  Is it possible for some electrons to travel (and ions in the 
> opposite direction) and some discharge to happen?
> 
> Peri
> 
> 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "paul dove via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Sent: 23-Jun-15 1:21:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge"
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Oh, yea, sorry I don't know why I was thinking magneticfield.
>> At any rate the rest of what I said is accurate I believe.There is no 
>> electric field in a battery. A battery is a chemical reactor. The 
>> reaction is called red-ox reactions. In the battery is electrolyte 
>> which can conduct ions but not electrons. Electrons must move external 
>> to the battery.
>> 
>> The potential in the battery is a chemical potential or the chemical 
>> energy.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla plugs into new market with home battery system

[John Lindsay via EV]

My guess: a solar maximum power point tracker is a DC-DC converter, something 
we are all familiar with. Using something like that to charge the Tesla battery 
from the solar panels and then discharge it to the solar inverter would make 
for a useful upgrade to an existing system but not something that would be 
needed in every deployment case. On the other hand adapting existing designs to 
use LiPo rather than Lead Acid batteries and taking them to the mass market 
would make sense if someone were selling a very affordable battery. 

I think Musk just disrupted the battery industry. 

John Lindsay

> On 2 May 2015, at 3:22 pm, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:
> 
>  I am at a loss why only
> the battery is introduced, since you need the inverter to make it work...
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: PG&E wants CA ratepayers to pay bill for $653M public

[John Lindsay via EV]

Then you drive a Tesla P85 and realise you don't care what it sounds like 
because that much acceleration can sound like whatever it wants. 

John Lindsay

> On 13 Feb 2015, at 5:55 pm, Brett Davis via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> I think for many, if it's going to have a sound, it needs to sound good.
> Quieter is better and allows you to hear your music.
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EV Demand Response - (solar-thermal-NOT-2)

[John Lindsay via EV]

I've had solar hot water and I currently have solar pool heating and solar PV. 

Solar hot water wasn't good in winter. Sure, modern systems are better at that 
but you end up needing to boost it with instant or storage heating in winter. 

Solar for your pool is great because you want it when the sun shines. Mine adds 
a month of extra usable pool time to each end of the season. Occasionally I use 
the spa heater to heat the pool but that's a $50 hit every day I do it vs a few 
dollars a day for the pump for the solar. 

John Lindsay

> On 18 Jan 2015, at 2:16 pm, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> Pool heating does indeed work - because the system does not have to meet
> the same requirements.  It is not a sanitary system and there is no need to
> protect from backfeeding the potable water supply of the municipality.  The
> equipment - all of it, is significantly less expensive.  The customers are
> generally more well to do - they can afford a swimming pool, and so on.
> The payback comes more quickly and the customer may not even care about it.
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Archaic Salacious Electricians.au cast EVs as bogeyman

[John Lindsay via EV]

The Guinness Book of World Records sent an official observer and recorded it as 
a record. 

The record was for a production EV with standard equipment. 

That record has since been broken in a Tesla Model S.

I worked for Simon at the time and it was fascinating to watch the logistics of 
driving an EV across Australia from north to south come together including a 
massive generator to charge the car every day. It really is possible to 
determine the diesel equivalent mileage of an EV when you pour the diesel into 
the generator every day. 

John Lindsay

>> On 16 Dec 2014, at 6:35 am, EVDL Administrator via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> On 15 Dec 2014 at 3:02, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>> 
>> Hackett, who already owns several Tesla Roadsters, set a world record back
>> in October 2009 for the longest-distance travelled by an electric car on a
>> single charge by driving his U.S.-spec Tesla Roadster 313 miles on a single
>> charge with ten percent of the car's battery left at the end.
> 
> World record?  I don't think so.  In 1996, a Solectria Sunrise went 373.6 
> miles on one charge in the Tour de Sol.  
> 
> Keep trying.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Archaic Salacious Electricians.au cast EVs as bogeyman

[John Lindsay via EV]

I have never seen a Mennekes outlet in Australia. 

All the public charging points are either 15 amp 230 volt general power outlets 
(will accept a standard 10 amp or 15 amp  plug) or a J1772 plug on a cable. 

The only commercial EVs are iMievs and Leafs plus the GM Volt plug in hybrid. 

And now of course the Tesla Model S. 

I have just received an AVC2 module and J1772 socket so I can convert my car to 
use J1772 because it's now quite popular for public charging in my city. Of 
course popular is relative. There are perhaps five public charging points. 

John Lindsay

> On 15 Dec 2014, at 11:15 pm, Martin WINLOW  wrote:
> 
> I gather (from Plugshare) that most AU Level 2 public EVSEs are either 
> tethered J1772 or a Type 2 (Mennekes) socket.  In the former case, a simple 
> J1772 (Type 1) to Mennekes (Type 2) converter would work fine.  You could 
> make one yourself for AU$200 and no degree in rocket science required.  In 
> the latter case an equally simple Type 2 to Type 1 cable would be equally 
> fine and still cost about $AU 200 (eg www.EVBitz.uk!).
> 
> Regards, Martin Winlow.
> 
> 
>> On 15 Dec 2014, at 11:34, John Lindsay via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> The Australian delivered Teslas have the UK style, 3 phase, Mennekes 
>> connector for charging rather than a J1772.
>> 
>> The official word from Tesla Australia is that a J1772 to Mennekes adaptor 
>> will not work with the car.
>> 
>> I’m a little skeptical about this.
>> 
>> They are readily available in the UK and claimed to work with a Tesla Model 
>> S.
>> 
>> I will get to experiment with this on Simon’s car if and when the Juicebox 
>> shows up.
>> 
>> John Lindsay
>> 
>> 
>>> On 15 Dec 2014, at 9:32 pm, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 'Any j1772 EVSE will work fine, with a suitable adaptor'
>> 
>> __
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Archaic Salacious Electricians.au cast EVs as bogeyman

[John Lindsay via EV]

The Australian delivered Teslas have the UK style, 3 phase, Mennekes connector 
for charging rather than a J1772.

The official word from Tesla Australia is that a J1772 to Mennekes adaptor will 
not work with the car.

I’m a little skeptical about this.

They are readily available in the UK and claimed to work with a Tesla Model S.

I will get to experiment with this on Simon’s car if and when the Juicebox 
shows up.

John Lindsay


> On 15 Dec 2014, at 9:32 pm, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 'Any j1772 EVSE will work fine, with a suitable adaptor'
> 

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Re: [EVDL] Turning over a new Leaf...

[John Lindsay via EV]

I have had a Juicebox on order for a month and haven’t heard anything from 
Electric Motor Werks for that month other than an order confirmation.

Their website was dead when I checked it last week but came back by Friday.

They haven’t responded to my email query of last week.

They have $729 of my money.

At least it’s Open Source so the units out there are supportable.

If I hear from them or better still discover my Juicebox has been shipped I’ll 
let you all know.

John Lindsay


> On 14 Dec 2014, at 9:27 am, Stephen via EV  wrote:
> 
> The Juicebox from EMotorWerks is pretty good too...
> 
> http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/category/listing/23-juicebox-ev-charging-stations
> 
> Regards,
> Stephen
> 
> On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 7:02 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:
> 
>> If you want something portable, might also consider the Openevse:
>> http://store.openevse.com/
>> 
>> Much less expensive than commercial ones, and several people here have been
>> using it for a couple years or so.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Turning-over-a-new-Leaf-tp4673019p4673028.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Bad Tesla-S brakes>ploughed through windows, tables& hit wall.cn

[John Lindsay via EV]

China is a place where people who can afford cars like Teslas also have staff 
to drive them. I suspect this driver probably hasn't had many hours at the 
wheel of a car. 

John Lindsay

> On 25 Oct 2014, at 5:12 am, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:
> 
>> On Oct 24, 2014, at 12:11 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> The report said there was a fault with the
>> brakes.
> 
> While that _could_ be the case, as often as not it's the driver panicking, 
> mashing his foot as hard as he can to stop the car...only he's mashing the 
> accelerator rather than the brake
> 
> Not in all cases, of course. But in enough of a majority of them to suspect 
> the driver sooner than the vehicle. Especially if the guy's only had the car 
> a very short while.
> 
> b&
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4Charging

[John Lindsay via EV]

Read the voltage drop across the cables connecting the batteries.

The missing volts equal the charge current multiplied by the total resistance 
in the connections and cables. Otherwise known as Ohms Law. 

You may have some bad connections. 

John Lindsay

> On 26 Sep 2014, at 10:50 am, Buddy Mills via EV  wrote:
> 
> I thought I understood how to charge my 9 month old LiFeP04 but know I am
> doubting my process.  So I will lay it out and see what feedback the battery
> gurus here can suggest.
> 
> I have 132 60AH batteries in 2P66S.  So I am going to call this 66 batteries
> at 120AH.  Specs call for 3.6 volts max,  so 66 in serial is 237.7 volts.  I
> don't want to push them so I set the max voltage at 231volts charge which
> brings me to approx 3.5 volts per battery.  Now in real life once it is at
> this 231 volts for the string each individual battery voltage is approx 3.34
> volts +/- 0.10 volt.  Even at the plus side of that each battery would be
> 3.44 volts or 227.04 volts for the string.  So how is it that my charger
> string voltage is reading 334 - 335 volts while each battery is reading
> 3.34?  Does it matter if the total voltage is over the max (66 X 231) as
> long as the individual voltage is less 3.5 volts?  Should I set my BMS
> charge voltage cutoff higher and just leave each cell set at the 3.5 volts
> max.   Hope I am making sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for any feedback,
> 
> 
> 
> Buddy Mills
> 
>  buddymi...@cox.net
> 
> 
> 
> Look mom, no gas.   http://www.evalbum.com/2887
> 
> 
> 
> Disclaimer:  No animals were harmed or killed in the process of writing this
> email.  Any stories to the contrary are, for the most part, either fictional
> or greatly exaggerated. 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Menacing Copper-Theives> A 'Cut & Steal'EVSEScourge

[John Lindsay via EV]

This is common in the UK.

The charge point often has a "type 2" connector which is either single or three 
phase 240 volts. The connector is made by Mennekes. 

An example of cables that work with this can be seen from this random site:

http://pim.cenex.co.uk/plugged-in-midlands/charging-point-equipment/electric-vehicle-charging-cables

I must admit an advantage in Oz and UK of 230/240 volt mains and 13 or 15 amp 
outlets is 3KW charging is a doddle and standard outlet charge points have 
survived longer than you might otherwise expect. 

John Lindsay

> On 2 Sep 2014, at 8:49 pm, Michael Okrent via EV  wrote:
> 
> Why not eliminate the problem by bringing your own cable. There won't be 
> anything to steal when no one is around. The j1772 is standard on one end, is 
> there a standard for the other end?
> 
> Mike Okrent
> http://www.evalbum.com/3662
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Electric Auto Union

[John Lindsay via EV]

Beautiful car and awesome result. 

I too an very interested in the instrumentation. I have the same controller and 
motor more or less in my BladeEV / Hyundai commercial conversion. 

I need new batteries so it's time to do some proper instrumentation. 

John Lindsay

> On 24 Aug 2014, at 1:11 am, Willie2 via EV  wrote:
> 
>> On 08/23/2014 09:42 AM, via EV wrote:
>> Good morning,  I am not sure if you allow videos or not.  But here goes.  
>> This is my 1960 Electric Auto Union 1000s.  Al Swackhammer
>>   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phRCD6yqjiQ&feature=youtu.be
> Nothing wrong with publishing a LINK to anything!
> 
> I've seen this on evalbum:
> http://www.evalbum.com/2430
> for quite a while.
> 
> Is it only recently completed?  How does the instrumentation work? That is, 
> does it work well?
> 
> Great video!
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.

[John Lindsay via EV]

If the total cost of the system before subsidies is less than the lifetime cost 
of the electricity generated then total energy must have been recovered because 
it must have cost less than the total installed cost. 

If not then you are stuck with a hard problem. 

This argument is standard operating procedure for the fossil fuel electricity 
industry. They hate solar and wind because it messes with their profits.

Think how much steel and concrete go into making a power station. 

John Lindsay

> On 25 May 2014, at 12:33 pm, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> Thank you Cor,
> 
> This is just me experimenting with the ideas
> 
> Can we really disregard the energy cost of all those other items making up
> the totla cost?
> 
> I guess can see leaving out profit (which is sort an excess since everyone
> involved already put food on the table, got medical care, and so on. The
> people drawing the profit may not have undertaken the PV at all without the
> promise of profit, so maybe that too is part of the cost - energy wise, but
> it isn't clearly so); but the energy to transport the panels afterward, to
> market them, to shuffle salesmen and installers around, the energy cost of
> the inverters, disconnects wiring, lights and heating in the installers
> physical plant.  Wouldn't all these be foregone if the panels were never
> made?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
> wrote:
> 
>> Michael,
>> You are talking about financial payback.
>> The discussion was about energy payback:
>> How much energy was used to manufacture the panel (and transport and
>> install it)
>> versus the amount of energy supplied by the panel. Not a financial
>> calculation,
>> although the price of the panel is impacted by the amount of energy that
>> went
>> into the manufacture of the panel.
>> Typically energy payback (more electric power generated from sun than the
>> total energy
>> used for the creation of the panel) is several times shorter than
>> financial payback,
>> due to non-energy related costs such as profit margins, man hours and so
>> on.
>> Hope this clarifies,
>> 
>> Cor van de Water
>> Chief Scientist
>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>> Email: cwa...@proxim.comPrivate: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Sun 5/25/2014 9:59 AM
>> To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar roadways.
>> 
>> In the US anything one may about payback in so many years is purely
>> speculative and very geography dependent.
>> 
>> Short payback such as you mention come from energy that is taxed heavily -
>> so your payback is sort of a subsidy.
>> 
>> My own array will probably pay back in 8 years if the rates for electric
>> power rise.  I have a very low rate - one of the lowest here - just over
>> $0.09 a kWh.  In Rhode Island the rate is above $0.20.  And, most important
>> - I got a subsidy of 65% back on the cost of my installation.  That varies
>> from place to place and the utilities are always angling to charge more for
>> power  they sell, and pay less for power the buy.
>> 
>> Since we are the new font of gases for burning - utilities are converting
>> coal plants to gas and building more gas.  Electric power won't rise as one
>> would have predicted a few years ago.  Technology in drilling drives this.
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Cor van de Water via EV <
>> ev@lists.evdl.org
>>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Bill,
>>> I'd like to know where you heard that (incorrect) tidbit
>>> about solar panels having more energy content than they generate.
>>> Last I checked (about 15 years ago) it was information published
>>> by the maker of my solar panels (Kyocera) showing that typical
>>> energy payback time of complete solar panels (cells, glass and
>>> alu frame together) was in the order of 1 year, but due to the
>>> fact that I installed them in The Netherlands, my energy payback
>>> time was closer to 2 years.
>>> And this was of course well before the current solar improvements
>>> of thin film or ribbon cells, which greatly reduce the amount of
>>> silicon per cell, as well as the progress of efficiency which means
>>> more energy returned per surface area.
>>> So - I expect that solar panel energy payback is certainly under
>>> 1 year in favorable locations and it can be over 1 year in less
>>> favorable locations. But no way that energy would not pay back
>>> or the price of the panels would not offset the price of electricity
>>> generated and it does - a couple times over even - including manhours
>>> and other non-energy related cost additions.
>>> 
>>> But it is good to look at the source - where did you find this info?
>>> 
>>> Cor van de Water
>>> Chief Scientist
>>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxi

Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NEW Dual Carbon Battery from POWER JAPAN PLUS

[John Lindsay via EV]

Bromine and Chlorine are both from the same corrosive column on the periodic 
table so you want to avoid breathing the fumes.

The design of this battery avoids the production of fumes but I don't expect to 
see a vehicle application in the near future. 

John Lindsay
Currently in LA
Usually in Australia

> On 24 May 2014, at 12:37 am, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 21 May 2014 at 21:29, John Lindsay via EV wrote:
>> 
>> ... zinc bromine flow battery ...
> 
> I don't want to seem alarmist, but I remember reading about a Solar and 
> Electric 500 in the early 1990s, when James Worden of Solectria had to be 
> flown to hospital via med-evac after his car's zinc bromine battery 
> developed a leak.  They had to stop the race and clear the track.  Something 
> like a dozen other people also ended up going to hospital (though not by 
> chopper) for treatment. 
> 
> That may be why they're not certified for mobile use.  Zinc bromine fumes 
> are wicked stuff.  You want to be VERY careful with those batteries.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: NEW Dual Carbon Battery from POWER JAPAN PLUS

[John Lindsay via EV]

I've recently had the chance to take a close look at RedFlow in Australia. They 
have a zinc bromine flow battery.  It has electrodes made of carbon but the 
electrolyte is zinc bromide. The battery isn't designed for vehicle use and 
isn't certified for that. It can deliver 3KW continuously at 60 volts so that's 
50 amps. There is some scope for surges and averaging out but that modest peak 
is why you haven't seen many flow batteries in EVs. 

John Lindsay

> On 21 May 2014, at 6:21 pm, ralph bagwell via EV  wrote:
> 
> I have wondered why the vanadium redox "battery" has not become widely used
> - yep it uses liquids but gasoline is liquid- if not for vehicles then
> solar energy storage .The membrane used is expensive but you don't need
> much .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Geoff Pullinger via EV
> wrote:
> 
>>> On 5/21/2014 10:33 AM, Steven Lough via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sounds almost too good to be true.  But like in decades Past,
>>> When I can go out and buy a 16 - 20 KWH pack
>>> I will then TEST it, and then Believe...
>>> 
>>> ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OJwZ9uEpJOo )
>>> 
>>> In order that we may get around the whole 'new battery technology'
>> vaporware issue ( and get some decent power for ev's ) we need something
>> that is not a battery.  I don't know what that would be but the whole idea
>> of storing electricity in some chemical and then extracting it again seems
>> to generate more problems and less batteries.
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