Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Does the EV world really need this?

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

Here is a later video from the same channel I mentioned elsewhere in this
thread about it's early development, the 30% discount from the description
still works, I just used it because I need a NACS extension for a CCS
adapter for my CyberTruck big charge port fenders.

They discuss the 2A relationship in the video.  ie: you can't shoot a fire
and maybe don't want to try with a bear or a mob or would simply prefer to
deescalate a situation rather than taking someones life.  Maybe I'm weird
for thinking that even the worst of our lives is worth more than $300,
shrugs.

https://youtu.be/8EoWpEIxXJ8?si=pOOmJ5hMKAOvkVnf

On Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 08:23 David Chapman via EV  wrote:

> For about the same $$, to be fair maybe a little more, you can buy a
> decent .357. Much more flexible and useful in many more sketchy
> circumstances. Just my 2c worth. Dach.
>
> "Do what you can, with what you have, where you are" - Theodore Roosevelt
> “We reached the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying in her
> eyes  I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that
> because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters’
> paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the
> wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view.” - Aldo Leopold
>
> On Thursday, July 11, 2024 at 07:59:50 AM MST, jim--- via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>  That's an interesting concept.  The argument in favor of it is certainly
> valid in some situation.  I don't drive an EV so not an issue for me.
> Would I get one for my wife if (when) we end up with an EV for her?  Likely
> not because in her case she just does not drive enough to require charging
> anywhere except at home.
>
> Jim
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "EV List Lackey via EV" 
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2024 07:41
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "EV List Lackey" 
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Does the EV world really need this?
>
> What do you think?
>
> https://insideevs.com/news/726136/evject-life-saving-ev-charging-device/
>
> Would you pay $300 for a one-time-use gadget?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> "My country, right or wrong" is a thing that no patriot would
> think of saying except in a desperate case. It's like saying
> "My mother, drunk or sober."
>
> -- G K Chesterton
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Does the EV world really need this?

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

It's only a one-time-use gadget for that one time you feel your life is so
threatened that you aren't safe to unlock and exit your car in order to
unplug and drive away from th situation.

I believe the Evject includes one free replacement device for that rare if
not hopefully never need to use it.  This enables one to choose flight
instead of being forced to potentially fight.

The history of this and similar devices is that they began many years ago
as a sort of community competition held by the Now You Know YouTube
channel. ie: https://youtu.be/S-HXnI5AmWc?si=PNvhbUyowhCjjqsl from 2021-ish.

I am considering getting one for use with my CyberTruck because the NACS
port is on the fender and the normal CCS-NACS adapters do not have a long
enough neck to fit properly.  But if I use an EVJect and then the adapter,
then it will work.  There is a new adapter being made for the CT with a
longer NACS neck, but it's not for sale yet.

L8r
 Lightning Ryan

On Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 07:42 EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:

> What do you think?
>
> https://insideevs.com/news/726136/evject-life-saving-ev-charging-device/
>
> Would you pay $300 for a one-time-use gadget?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  "My country, right or wrong" is a thing that no patriot would
>  think of saying except in a desperate case. It's like saying
>  "My mother, drunk or sober."
>
>  -- G K Chesterton
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] AC Power export for Teslas

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

That's great to hear that you have successfully demonstrated negative
current via DCFC protocols!  I've been speculating for decades that this
should be possible, depending on if the car side would panic upon current
lost versus expected current gained.

You say you have done 6kW, is this because the car freaks out above this?
Or because you don't have a safe load larger than this to test with?

It sounds like the trickiest part, if ignoring all the protocol
negotiations, is that you need to be able to match the batteries high
voltage in order to establish the DC connection.  So a hypothetical PTO
(Power Take Off) DCFC device would need to have its own power stage able to
match the car.

Very fun stuff.

On Fri, Jun 28, 2024, 18:37 Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> Essentially, you need to pretend to be a complete DCFC and then
> "charge" with a negative current.
> Cor.
>
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 10:09 AM (-Phil-) via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > I don't yet have any instructions, and it's very complex.  You have to
> > build hardware to generate and sense the 1khz 5% PWM pilot signal then
> have
> > a relay to switch the communications over to single-wire CAN, and then
> > negotiate with the car's BMS over CAN.  Once you have that working you
> have
> > to voltage-match the battery voltage on the port within a few volts
> before
> > it will honor your request to close the DC fast charge contactors.   On
> top
> > of that, once you get all that working, you are left with pretty much a
> > direct DC connection to the pack which can easily sink thousands of amps
> if
> > something goes wrong, so you have to really know what you are doing.
> >
> > Unfortunately, I'm not prepared to write up a how-to for this reason.
> > Someone will either get killed, or damage their car, or both.   Then
> > there's still the problem of the warranty!
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 10:02 AM Barry Oppenheim via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Do you mind sharing the instructions or a link to the instructions?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Barry Oppenheim
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 12:56 PM (-Phil-) via EV 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I recently figured out a safe way to export power from any Tesla's
> charge
> > > > port.  I got HV DC power export working from the port at around 6kW,
> > > which
> > > > could then be fed into an inverter for AC power.
> > > >
> > > > However, Tesla still instantly voids your warranty if you do this.  I
> > > have
> > > > a salvage Tesla, so it doesn't matter to me, but it really dashes any
> > > hope
> > > > of offering a product.
> > > >
> > > > Tesla has always had this clause to void your warranty if "Using the
> > > > vehicle as a stationary power source".   (See:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/tesla-new-vehicle-limited-warranty-en-us.pdf
> > > > )
> > > >
> > > > I decided to see if they modified the warranty for the Cybertruck,
> since
> > > it
> > > > has the AC power export feature built-in, and here's what they
> changed
> > > that
> > > > clause to: (only for Cybertruck) "Using the vehicle as a permanent,
> > > > stationary or long-term power source or backup".  So Technically any
> > > > "stationary" use still voids it!   They also don't bother to define
> what
> > > > "long-term" is.   (See:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/tesla-cybertruck-new-vehicle-limited-warranty-en-us.pdf
> > > > )
> > > >
> > > > I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think they can void your warranty
> unless
> > > they
> > > > can prove your actions did the damage you are claiming under warranty
> > > > coverage.  (Per the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act, see:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> https://www.ftc.gov/legal-library/browse/statutes/magnuson-moss-warranty-federal-trade-commission-improvements-act
> > > > )
> > > >   Though that probably means they tell you to kick rocks and you
> have to
> > > > hire an attorney to fight them.  I'd be interested in opinions from
> any
> > > > Attorneys on the list?
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Rumor: Tesla abandons $25k EV?

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

It could be a fictitious BS rumor based on nothing...

On Sun, Apr 7, 2024, 17:53 Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> I suspect that the competition has recently heated up in the low end of
> the EV market. It has evolved into the inevitable "race to the bottom."
> I'm thinking that Elon has acknowledged the lack of profitability in
> this market sector and has decided to gracefully bow out.
>
> There was a news article in February that BYD launched their Qin Plus EV
> Honor Edition car for $15k USD. It looks to be a four (or perhaps five
> very slim) passenger sedan. $15k for a reasonably nice, basic, EV.
>
>  BYD has put a "shot across the bow" of Tesla with this vehicle.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
> On 4/8/2024 12:29 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> > It could be simply that a low cost model isn't exciting enough for
> > Musk. He likes being a disruptor, proving that he can do something
> > where no one else has succeeded. If he follows through with a
> > robotaxi, that would be huge. He would be upsetting the taxi and ride
> > share markets and have them at his knees. I think he would thrive on
> > that.
> >
> > Of course, all of that is predicated on full self driving. Who knows
> > where that stands...
> >
> > Peri
> >
> > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> >
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "EV List Lackey via EV" 
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> > Cc: "EV List Lackey" 
> > Sent: 07-Apr-24 16:58:09
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Rumor: Tesla abandons $25k EV?
> >
> >> Cleantechnica has an interesting take on this story.  They point out
> >> that,
> >> if it's true, it's a deviation from Tesla's claimed "master plan" to
> >> use the
> >> profits from luxury vehicles to develop affordable mass-market EVs.
> >>
> >> Who knows, maybe Musk thinks he's done enough for us poor folks with the
> >> M3/Y, and he can scratch that goal off the list.
> >>
> >>
> https://cleantechnica.com/2024/04/05/musk-no-tesla-model-2-for-you-maybe/
> >>
> >>
> >> "The Elon Musk biography by Walter Isaacson details in exquisite
> >> detail how
> >> a group of Tesla engineers lobbied Elon Musk for years to give up his
> >> fixation on robotaxis and get on with the business of making a less
> >> expensive mass market car. [...]
> >>
> >> "But according to a report by Reuters on April 5, 2024, Tesla has
> >> canceled
> >> the Model 2 and will resume its efforts to build robotaxis. So, here
> >> we are
> >> back at square one again. I should have written this as my April Fool´s
> >> article, but no one would have believed it. It is too fanciful, too far
> >> fetched to have any credibility, but it is true nonetheless according to
> >> three company insiders and an internal memo seen by Reuters.
> >>
> >> The decision represents an abandonment of a long standing goal that Elon
> >> Musk has articulated several times in his "secret" master plans -
> >> building
> >> affordable electric cars for the masses. His first "master plan" in 2006
> >> specifically called for manufacturing luxury models first, then using
> >> the
> >> profits to finance a 'low cost family car.' [...]
> >>
> >> "[Editor´s note: Since Steve wrote this, we have seen a tweet from
> >> Elon Musk
> >> that a Tesla robotaxi reveal will be on August 8th."
> >>
> >> -
> >>
> >> About that last paragraph: what Musk actually wrote on Twitter was
> >> "Tesla
> >> Robotaxi reveal on 8/8.". Why THAT date?  "88" is a white supremacy
> >> and Nazi
> >> symbol.  I hope the date is just a coincidence.  Musk's trolling is
> >> already
> >> turning off potential Tesla customers.
> >>
> >> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >>
> >> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> >> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >>
> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >>
> >>  Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit
> >>  atrocities.
> >>
> >>   -- Voltaire
> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Cybertruck buyer's remorse not allowed?

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

If your the second hand buyer, you have no legal obligation to wait a
year... Lol... Just sayin'

I have two reservations, and am wondering how I'll let a brother or friend
leverage the second one...  Although, the second (~40k) is a single motor,
so it might take a year to get to that variant, and so by then I can sell
my first (~7k) trip motor and update the other to a quad motor plaid
version, perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.

On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 16:55 Jay Summet via EV  wrote:

> If you don't want to agree to the contract, wait a year and then buy it
> used from somebody who did
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV's not a green success.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

The 100 square miles of solar panels in Arizona was simply an example for
scale...  What you would actually do is use all of the existing modern
structures roof area, which is very likely some factor greater up to
perhaps an order more than the 100 square miles of surface area... Then
humanity gets new super powers of excess energy and needs far less storage
for overnights or overcast and less windy weeks or seasons.  Other people
have done the same calculations as Elons Master Plan Part 3... Check out
"tony seba renewable energy" for some more robust data.  We do not need to
match storage to production capacity it turns out...  Anyway, just thought
I would throw that out there, He didn't literally mean 100 contiguous
square miles in Arizona...

On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 2:53 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:

> Yes, he stated they would need storage facilities, that’s obvious because
> of nightfall.
>
> On Tuesday, November 7, 2023, 6:28 PM, Michael Ross <
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Musk proposed a seat of the pants estimate in an interview about how much
> solar array surface area would produce as much energy as THE ENTIRE HUMAN
> RACE.
> He used the output of average solar equipment at less than optimal
> output (I forget, maybe it was 15% efficient cells).
> I did my own seat of the pants order of magnitude estimate, looking at all
> the fossil fuels burned, nuke generated energy, geothermal, hydro, etc. I
> think he could defend it.
> However, it is not practical. The sun moves across the sky at a degree
> every 4 minutes. You can get pretty good output from contemporaneous panels
> that are at a 30 degree incident angle. You need to have additional 100
> mile on a side solar farms spaced appropriately around the entire earth and
> the wire infrastructure to support it. You would need some redundancy to
> handle cloudiness. Or maybe a feces load of batteries, pump storage,
> gravity storage, something storage. Suffice it to say you have to have a
> lot of these arrays all around the earth, and maybe between the tropics of
> cancer and capricorn. Tricky 'cause there is a lot of ocean out there.
> I found his thought experiment useful to highlight just how much power the
> sun sends our way. You can barely see a 100 mile square plot of lane from
> space. It is truly tine compared to the surface of the earth.
> On Tue, Nov 7, 2023 at 6:43 PM paul dove  wrote:
>
> Elon Musk said he can power the whole US with 100 square miles on solar
> panels in Arizona
> SNIP
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Made it on Wham Baam Teslacam

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

Yikes... Tesla cams are pretty awesome, to the point that a whole YT.
Channel can play only footage that owners share...

On Thu, Sep 28, 2023, 01:17 Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> #18 https://youtu.be/Mjkgu51N_64?si=ip6g8qAq8pJ1PeCA My 15 seconds of
> fame. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Aptera Accelerator Program

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

That still did not work, I don't think, but anyone can simply visit aptera
(dot) us in their browser and find the "Accelerate" link at the top of the
page.

Full disclosure, I am an investor and will likely put in a new reservation
once production begins, but did not want to be greedy so have not reserved
one yet... ;)  I was always a fan of my 70+mpg Insight ane electrithons and
solar panels and the sun racer... So this vehicle simply smashes all of
those together into an awesome consumer product, I can't wait for
production to start.  I also can not wait to order some hub motors and
maybe finish my Insight through the road PHEV electrification project, but
at this point, perhaps there is no longer any point in such a project...

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 4:35 AM David Heacock via EV 
wrote:

> From my last post I guess I can not copy and paste an address so I will
> type it here to see what happens.  For the Accelerator Program   Accelerate
> | Aptera
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] GM makes a uturn on Bolt production

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

That is a very curious reply which AFAIKT has no grounding in any reality,
with regards to what FSD is, vs Autopilot, vs FSD opt-in Beta testing,
versus what GM ADAS is capable of.  No one was even discussing Advanced
Drivers Assistance Systems, so why reply with some third hand hear say FUD
when you obviously have no FSD first hand experience?

No need to reply, because we obviously have differing opinions, which is
fine, but I just felt compelled to share my counter perspective.  FSD is a
level 2 system with the potential to save hundreds of thousands of lives
annually.  Tesla doesn't "take control" any more than any other Cruise
Control which you must choose to enable. My Ford Lightning Blue Cruise has
emergency braking, I enabled it, it has numerous false alarms when I use
it, but I know to expect them.

I took had a Bolt for many years, and found it to be a great and affordable
200+ mile BEV.  The only major shortcomings was the 50kW DCFC and the whole
LG battery fiasco.  So I am glad to hear GM may bring it back after halting
productions, I just wish they could make the switch to ultium based without
the stoppage.

On Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 15:00 Peter Eckhoff via EV  wrote:

> I always appreciated GM's approach to safety as opposed to Tesla's
> ("Hold My Beer. I've got this...) approach.  The Bolt warns the driver
> while Tesla takes control (FSD, and somewhat WRT Autopilot)..  I feel
> more comfortable with the GM approach.
>
> As a disclaimer, I've owned a Bolt and now own a Tesla.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 5:06 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV
>  wrote:
> >
> > https://www.teslarati.com/chevrolet-bolt-ev-euv-comeback/ Probably a
> good idea.The Bolt I used was almost as capable as my Tesla.
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

The hub motors that Aptera are using are made by Elaphe, see these videos I
posted earlier:
>> On 7/8/2023 8:51 PM, Ryan Fulcher wrote:
>>> https://youtu.be/CqPMtEIT3f4
>>> https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8

Also, in case anyone saw the recent national news story where an Aptera
overheated... We got details later, that car was a Gamma prototype from 18
months ago for mostly aesthetic demos.  So it never has any cooling system
components installed, so it's actually done quite well for basically being
run with no active thermal management to speak of...

On Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 16:24 Josh Landess via EV  wrote:

> I do think it's fair to give these things a chance in the public
> marketplace, especially if it could be in a moderate passenger EV that
> tries to highlight some of their strengths and not their weaknesses.  I
> personally still would not consider buying one unless or until we see
> extensive uninhibited feedback from unbiased drivers simply talking
> about their experiences, good, bad or indifferent.
>
> A part of the problem is that such motors have been mentioned various
> times as integral to saving energy and being part of an important EV
> project, and then, somehow, they just don't quite make it to where we
> can consider buying it.
>
> It's been a long time, but taking a quick look around I see these two
> in-wheel hub motor providers are still in theory trying to make a go of
> it.  There may be many more (perhaps someone can say who Aptera is using
> if it isn't already clear), but just noting these two:
> https://www.proteanelectric.com/
> more than a decade ago, I seem to remember them issuing a white paper
> that attempted to lay out some of the arguments in-favor-of, and address
> some of the criticisms.  I don't know where things stand these days, but
> taking a way-overly-quick look, it does seem at least they are still in
> discussion with some automakers:
> https://www.proteanelectric.com/news/
>
> for example:
>
> 28.Apr.23
> Dongfeng Motor Showcases All-Wheel Drive Luxury Sedan Powered By
> ProteanDrive, Weeks After Announcing Version Driven By Two In-Wheel Motors
>
>
> and we have this other blast-from-the-past:
> https://www.saietta.com/about-us/
> however, I don't know if they are presently trying to offer the in-wheel
> product.  I don't presently see language about it on their page.
>
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Re: [EVDL] Important Aptera news.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

Found it via the Aptear Discord channel:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/embedded-video/mmvo188945989602?fbclid=IwAR0wC3r5W02Wliet3vuYwAX_XrP46XL75hC3MAbxXsT--m7qBkCRvo1uE84

It appears that this vehicle was a gamma build (prototype) from 18 months
ago:

Commentary from the discord channel:  "As you are aware, Gamma was a
snapshot in time from 18 months ago. While Gamma is not a production
vehicle, it is a monumental step in that direction. We are applying all of
the knowledge learned from the Gamma phase of development into our upcoming
Delta builds, which the team is excited to test and validate thanks to your
support. In the meantime, Gamma is receiving select upgrades to show off
more production capabilities. We are excited to show off those upgrades in
the coming weeks."

I do personally find it a little disconcerting that the response "you must
be the first to drive it up a hill" was given, it's not very confidence
instilling.  I sure hope they come back in the next week or so with a
better explanation like "We are aware of the problem with the Gamma
prototypes and have addressed it in later revisions" including some
engineering details about thermal limits and expectations.
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Re: [EVDL] Important Aptera news.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

I would love to see that clip... But i have been unable to locate any such
video.  If you find a link to it online, or know which NBC station ran it,
that would be great.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 5:34 PM jerry freedomev via EV 
wrote:

>  Hi All,Just watching NBC Evening News tonight had the Aptera with
> it's CEO? on and they went for a test ride.   The problem was it couldn't
> get up a hill I assume was a longer one, the motors overheated and had to
> pull over  to let them cool down.  That is not good.  Though maybe the
> heavy aero wheel skirts are not helping either if they don't provide
> airflow.This is a problem with hub motors as at such low RPM they have
> to use massive amps which of course makes massive heat but I'd thought they
> had worked that out. As I said my last post they need to go back to a
> geared rear motor and get rid of the hub motors like they had when they
> first designed it about 20 yrs ago.   Even then they had problems with
> motor overheating so they gave me a call since I was doing the FreedomEV at
> the time, a similar EV but more conventional looking.   Turned out they had
> geared it too low and increasing the gearing from 4-1 to 7-1, solved it.If
> I was them, I'd be making a backup plan of either front or rear geared
> drives.  Jerry Dycus
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

Or maybe, and try to stick with me here, just maybe, this company that has
spent tons of money up front on research and development that has test
articles which achieve <100Wh/mile at freeway speeds has somehow engineered
high quality hub motors.  I don;t think there is anything in physics which
dictates that hub motors are impossible to "get right" for automotive yes.
Sure there are plenty of examples of poorly implemented or designed hub
motors in the past, Lordstown using (perhaps these same Elaphe?) motors but
on a multi ton pickup truck is an example of a poor implantation?  I can't
say for sure, and we have all heard the pros and cons of unsprung mass etc
etc.  But I am also hearing a lot of glossing over the benefits of such
motor packaging, which if you looked at the body design of the Aptera,
their offroad three motor version just can not work be bringing these
motors inboard.  Anyway, perhaps we will get to experience one first hand
within a year or so.  Just remember that everything was impossible until it
was not, so long as physics allows.

On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 4:51 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:

> Then you call it a normal motor!
>
>  And instead of making a lot of poles and super high currents (inefficient)
> to get reasonable torque like most hub motors, you can put a gear reduction
> in and now you are like most all production EVs.  Most use a single motor,
> gear reduction, then a differential.  Some like the Lucid Air and the Tesla
> Plaid use dual motors, one for each side, so just the motor and gear
> reduction.  Then you get to do torque vectoring as well.
>
> On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 4:18 PM Robert Johnston via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > I wonder if you could take hub motors and mount them inboard, so instead
> of
> > a differential you'd have back-to-back "hub"motors connected to
> > driveshafts. So you don't have the unsprung weight of hub motors, but you
> > do get the advantages of electronically controllable torque per wheel.
> >
> > On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 at 16:58, Josh Landess via EV 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > it does sound like a shame they went with hub motors.  Otherwise, the
> > > vehicle is something I could consider buying.  Well, I'll keep an eye
> > > out for early owner reports and maybe if they seem "ok", I'll still
> > > consider it someday.  Or maybe if the company gets harsh feedback from
> > > owners it will redesign the vehicle to incorporate non-hub motors.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 7/11/2023 4:57 AM, jerry freedomev wrote:
> > > > Hi Josh and All,
> > > >   Hub motors are bad for 2 reasons, they have little start up torque
> > > > and to make up for they require heavy powerful motors.
> > > > They are great in non suspension Ebikes, etc where it can be much
> > > > smaller as gets help with a leg push/pedal for starting up.
> > > > As a lightweight EVer I was wondering how bad the unsprung weight
> > > > would be with the Aptera.   Indications came from a Jay Leno drive
> vid
> > > > in one the fixed camera showed it to be noticeable to me but not bad.
> > > > I'd keep it on smoother roads when possible as I do with my light
> EVs.
> > > > I'd suggest a good seat, it shouldn't be a problem.  Too bad they
> went
> > > > complicated when the original design with a geared rear motor instead
> > > > it would cost much less to build and better handling, more starting
> > > > power could be in production.
> > > > Jerry Dycus
> > > >
> > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 10:37:54 PM PDT, Josh Landess via EV
> > > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I hadn't noticed that they were using the hub motors, thanks for
> > > > pointing this up.  I will be a bit more cautious before I consider
> > > > getting one, though I'll still keep open the possibility. On top of
> the
> > > > other risks they seem to be asking from their pioneer first
> customers,
> > > > that one seems like a notable one.
> > > >
> > > > On 7/9/2023 5:14 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
> > > > > Thanks for those informative videos. It still isn't real world
> data.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is a reason nobody is using wheel motors on highway capable
> > > > > vehicles.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 7/8/2023 8:51 PM, Ryan Fulcher wrote:
> > > > >> So this?
> > > > >> https://youtu.be/CqPMtEIT3f4
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Or this:
> > > > >> https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, 17:46 Alan Arrison via EV  >
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I was excited about the Aptera until I saw the hub motors.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I'll pass until I see some real world reliability
> demonstrated.
> > > > >>
> > > > > -- next part --
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> > > > >
> > > > <
> > >
> >
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20230709/03646ce3/attachment.htm
> > > >
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

Of course, Aptera is also "breaking the mold" with their hub motors.
Yes, Time will tell of course.  And I hope that we start to see them
hitting the road by the end of this year.
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

So this?
https://youtu.be/CqPMtEIT3f4

Or this:
https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8


On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, 17:46 Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:

> I was excited about the Aptera until I saw the hub motors.
>
> I'll pass until I see some real world reliability demonstrated.
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

That is sort of impressive, however at 18mph there is basically no
aerodynamic drag.  And yes, a century old baker electric was already very
efficient. It's easy to tell because the waste heat produced was very low
even back then.

The Aptera remains efficient at freeway speeds, and the differential of
efficiency (versus traditional cars) will actually grow wider the faster it
goes.  I think it would make a good cannonball run candidate.  It reminds
me of an alleged speed run I did in my 2000 Honda Insight where I simply
stood on the accelerator for an entire 10.6 gallon tank of gas and still
got like 36mpg I think.

On Fri, Jul 7, 2023, 16:29 Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> BTW: I wondered who built the first solar-powered car, and ran across this:
>
> "In 1962, the American engineer and businessman Charles Escoffery built
> the world's first solar car. Because there were no EVs on the market at
> the time, Escoffery used a 1912 Baker Electric as the basis for his
> solar car. The car was basically unmodified, except for the addition of
> a plate with 10,000 International Rectifier photovoltaic solar cells on
> the roof. Power was routed to the batteries via power cables at the
> front and back of the panel."
>
> "If you left the Baker Electric with the solar panel in the sun for
> eight to ten hours, the batteries were full charged. You could then
> drive it about 50 miles in three hours at an average speed of 18 mph (30
> kmh)."
>
> That's actually pretty impressive for such early technology!
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] our own John f-250 conversion featured on YouTube.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

John, did you see this yet: https://youtu.be/f0DX5uzfUqQ
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

I believe the Aptera should be somewhat more safe than a motorcycle.  I
think they have crash test data and their passenger shell is very strong.

It is more efficient than a motorcycle as well.

I didn't intend to get into the weeds regarding the engineering trade
offs... I just thought the Aptera was a future again worthy vehicle.

While I don't have a reservation, I am an early investor, and I do plan on
putting in an order when they go into production, it should be a step up
from my 2000 Honda Insight.

On Fri, Jul 7, 2023, 15:59 John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:

> On 7/7/2023 3:48 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
> People would also need to be willing to accept the crash safety level of
> a motorcycle.
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

I absolutely understand and am of the mind to still proclaim that PV on a
normal car is still impractical.

Although the https://lightshiprv.com/ is yet another of those edge cases
that I've always thought might make sense and am glad that someone is
finally pursuing at scale.

The only reason it works on the aptera is that it has the aerodynamics and
efficiency of an electrathon.  Another of their talking points is that
their entire car has the same drag as one side view mirror on my Lightning.
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, next level PV Aptera grins.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

I'm looking forward to being finally proven wrong about the practicality of
PV on your EV when the Aptera starts being delivered...  Of course they did
it by making a body that is multiple times as aerodynamically efficient as
your average car.  At 100Wh/mil (10miles/kWh) what would be 4-10miles worth
of embedded PV becomes 40miles worth.  And they will be doing it with some
tank like hub motors that will be excellent for diy projects and are sure
to induce plenty of EV Grin in the future.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla's reputation takes a hit

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

Polls are never flawed...

On Tue, May 23, 2023, 19:39 EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:

> Yikes.
>
> -
>
> Tesla plummets 50 spots in a survey of the US's most reputable brands.
> It's
> now No. 62 - 30 places below Ford.
>
> Tesla's place on the Axios Harris Poll 100 reputation rankings dropped
> 50 places this year.
>
> While Tesla scored high for trajectory and vision, it earned fair
> scores
> for trust and character.
>
> The company is ranked below other vehicle manufacturers such as
> Toyota,
> Honda, BMW, and Ford.
>
> The automaker's dip comes as competitor Ford Motor jumped nine spots to
> land
> at No. 32 ...
>
> Auto company reputation rankings in Top 100
>
> 6. Toyota
>
> 13. Honda
>
> 16. Subaru
>
> 24. BMW
>
> 32. Ford
>
> 34. General Motors
>
> 56. Volkswagen
>
> 62. Tesla
>
> 67. Chrysler (Stellantis)
>
> Full story:
>
> https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-plummets-50-spots-survey-musk-most-
> reputable-brands-ford-2023-5
> 
>
> shortcut URL: https://v.gd/tkkf1B
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in
> common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts. They
> alter the facts to fit their views.  This can be uncomfortable
> if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering.
>
>  -- Doctor Who, "The Face of Evil"
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] Smaller is not really cheaper (was: Tesla slashes its car prices as much as 20% to prop up sagging sales, where?s the $30K EV? A Chevy Bolt?)

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

That was a great video from BestInTESLA, great channel.

This goes to the topic of where Tesla may choose to deploy their battery 
capacity which is no longer their "limiting factor"...


In addition to the CyberTruck, or an inexpensive car, there is the Semi, 
and their accompanying Mega Pack which will allow a route location to 
use "Dump Charging" in order to skirt grid peak demand and instead even 
earn money by leveraging stationary storage along with renewables to do 
grid energy arbitrage with the likes of their AutoBidder (Their VPP 
(Virtual Power Plant) AI Software already in production.


Turns out that the Semi and Co-Located Grid Storage with renewables 
might have the larger societal impact than a cheaper BEV for the masses.


Related to lowering the cost for a sedan, do keep in mind that all 
Teslas for the past decade have included their full ADAS (FSD) suite. 
There was another video today (https://youtu.be/Vx-BpSCypjU probably) 
pointing out that Tesla has lost Billions worth of hardware by 
installing this hardware suite in every single car.  Why would they do 
this?  Because it accelerates their ability to both solve FSD and then 
to sell FSD which is a value multiplier for all of those 2+million 
vehicles already deployed.



A similar protip, Paying for YouTube Premium is well worth it
IMHO because it eliminates all advertising and allows for 2x playback.

Another good video: https://youtu.be/DtGQ6KC3t1c
: How the Tesla Semi “Broke the Laws of Physics”
: Channel: The Limiting Factor
:* An EXCELLENT Channel all should watch all Videos.

50,411 views  Jan 23, 2023
When Tesla unveiled their Semi 5 years ago, auto industry was skeptical 
to say the least.  As Daimler put it, Tesla must be defying the laws of 
physics.


In this video we'll look at how the Tesla Semi "Broke the Laws of Physics"

Timeline
00:00 Intro
01:09 Drag Coefficient
02:05 Powertrain
03:31 Tesla’s 20% Advantage
04:36 The Plaid Motor
06:56 The Limiting Factor for Regen
10:53 1000 Volt Triangle
11:49 Summary

Read before commenting on regen and 17% cost advantage:

1) At 12:35 I say that the Semi recaptures 90%.  Obviously this is one 
way efficiency.  The round trip efficiency would be 81% because it has 
to go from battery to wheel and then wheel to battery.  More on this in 
the next video.


2) A lot of people are thinking the 17% cost estimate is mine.  It's 
from Tesla - directly from their unveiling event.  Cleanerwatt did an 
update of this on his channel, go check it out. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIzcaBSFud8&t=951s


Transcript

0:05 Welcome back everyone!
0:06 I’m Jordan Giesige and this is The Limiting Factor.
0:09 When Tesla unveiled the Semi 5 years ago, the auto industry was 
skeptical to say the

0:14 least.
0:15 As Daimler put it, Tesla must be defying the laws of physics.
0:18 With the Tesla semi now on the road reaching 500 miles of range, 
clearly no new physics

0:24 are required.
0:25 However, this begs the question.
0:26 “Why did so many people assume that the Tesla Semi was just smoke 
and mirrors?”

0:31 In short, it was a failure of imagination.
0:33 There were of course the obvious opportunities to improve 
efficiency, like the aerodynamics
0:38 of the Semi or ensuring that energy is used efficiently throughout 
the powertrain.
0:43 But, there are also some non-obvious opportunities, like synergies 
between triple plaid motor
0:48 powertrain and the 900kWh battery pack that Tesla didn’t talk about 
in the Semi Delivery

0:54 Event.
0:55 Before we begin, a special thanks to my Patreon supporters and 
YouTube members.
1:00 This is the support that gives me the freedom to avoid chasing the 
algorithm and sponsors.

1:05 As always, the links for support are in the description.
1:09 To kick things off, let’s start with the obvious reasons why the 
Tesla Semi was able

1:13 to achieve 500 miles of range, then we’ll get into the not so obvious.
1:17 Most people know that the Tesla Semi has a drag coefficient that’s 
almost half that

1:22 of a diesel Semi and even better than a Bugatti supercar.
1:25 A drag coefficient is simply a measure of how efficiently an object 
moves through the

1:30 air.
1:31 Lower resistance means greater efficiency and therefore range.
1:34 However, it doesn’t take into account the amount of air that the 
object displaces.

1:39 Greater surface also increases total drag.
1:42 Therefore, although it’s cool that the Semi has a slicker 
aerodynamic shape than the Bugatti,

1:47 it’s not the best comparison because the Bugatti is so much smaller.
1:51 The better comparison is the diesel truck, which has a much higher 
drag coefficient and

1:56 has a similar surface area to the Tesla Semi.
1:58 We’ll take a look at how the Tesla Semi compares to other electric 
Semis later in

2:03 the video.
2:04 Next, the powertrain.
2:06 A typical electric vehicle has a roughly 86% battery to wheel 
efficiency.
2:11 Roughly 5% of the energy is lost in the battery itself due to 

Re: [EVDL] Tesla slashes its car prices to lead the way towards affordable US-esq no compromise BEVs.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

Granted, we can never really know, and you are absolutely correct in 
that the EU & US & other national Vehicle Markets and preferences are 
each rather different from each other.


On 1/20/2023 10:12 AM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

So I'd agree that you can probably give at least some credit to Tesla for
production EVs' current availability in the US. But I don't think it's
accurate or fair to say that no OEMs would have offered EVs without Tesla.


I do admittedly speak mostly from a US Centric perspective.  While I 
always appreciated the likes of the Citi Car or Sparrow.  It was the 
EV1, Ranger Electric, S10 Electric, Rav4 electric, Honda EV Plus, EPIC 
that were nearer to practical for US sprawl, which is itself admittedly 
a related problem perhaps.


I'm a big fan of the Sono Sion and Aptera and other hyper efficient 
cars, but also see a place for the likes of the Lightning to replace 
traditional US Pickups.  And Tesla has demonstrated that DCFC can be 
made to be fast and reliable enough for even long hauling demands for 
such vehicles.  And of course I'm still imagining battery or pusher 
trailers to "fix" the handicap of legacy OEM BEVs lack of reliable 
charging networks at this moment.


In the end, there is no single solution for EVery situation.  But I do 
believe that there is a Battery Electric Solution for any given use 
case.  If you consider the entire Photons to Work Done, Renewables and 
electrochemical batteries beat any other storage solution for the 
indefinite powering of clean human societies.


There are of course exceptions like BBQ Grills and Rocket Ships where 
photons into hydrogen into methane and other chemical solutions are 
still required.  But natural Hydro Carbons are far too valuable to 
simply be burnt or converted into other commodities with such disregard 
as we have been.


Anyway, went a little sideways there, but I hope y'all catch my drift.

L8r
 Ryan
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Re: [EVDL] Why Tesla dropped prices below $55K and new EVs purchased prior to 2023

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge, your 2021 Tesla and 2020 GM
Bolt purchases do not qualify.  The new incentive lifts those old 200k
vehicle caps, but only going forward from 2023 Jan 1st and later
purchases... Since Tesla, GM, And Toyota exhausted their 200k vehicle
limits for the old incentives, any vehicle that missed out on the rebate at
their time of purchase still does not qualify, there are no retroactive
clauses as far as I can tell.  I would love to be proven wrong, but my
interpretation aligns with what was shared here:
https://youtu.be/isNQWpbVrI4 by Plug In America recently.

On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 11:31 AM Mark E. Hanson via EV 
wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> The new IRS EV form 8936 shows that to qualify for up to $7500 tax credit,
> it needs to be below $55K.  When I bought my Y in 2021 it was $55K, went up
> and now back down to meet this requirement.
>
>
>
> It also appears that my Chevy Bolt (bought new in 2020) may also apply as
> well as the Tesla Y since I didn't get *any* tax credit when I purchased
> either vehicle (since sales were above 200K).
>
>
>
> SEE:
>
> https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/manufacturers-and-models-for-new-qual
> ified-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2022-and-before
> 
>
>
>
>
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Mark E. Hanson
>
> 184 Vista Lane
>
> Fincastle, VA 24090
>
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
>
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
>
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
>
> UL Certified PV Installer
>
> My RE&EV Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
>
> REEVA Demo:   http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
>
>
> <
> https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd89
> 75b8d/signature
> >
> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla slashes its car prices for those who can appreciate their ability to do so.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

Maybe I worded that poorly, perhaps what I should have said was more 
along the lines of: There is no standing contract with the general 
public to supply Tesla vehicles for $35k or $30k or some other imagined 
"affordable" MSRP cut off point.


There have in fact been times in the past when Tesla did sell an off 
menu model 3 for under $35k, I believe.  Perhaps this is what Bobby was 
able to buy?  Point is, complaints that "Tesla isn't making that cheap 
BEV they promised" are missing the big picture, which is that there 
likely wouldn't be any BEVs for sale from any OEMs were it not for Tesla 
forcing them into this market.


The Nissan Leaf was a great BEV for it's time, but it was never going to 
strike the passion of those looking for the quickest, the safest, the 
best global charging network, the unending over the air software 
improvements, the real time optimization of design within each model 
class.  Just because people have options for purchasing OEM BEVs with 
warranties today by no means eliminates the desire of those at this list 
to hand craft our own electrified creations.  Just like there will 
always be people who love to wrench on engines, heck I would still enjoy 
working on an ICE if I had the inkling to need to.


Maybe I over reacted to the OP (Original Post) which in a single 
sentence managed to personally denigrate Elon alone for both lowering 
prices and simultaneously not lowering them enough. And also incorrectly 
claiming that the likes of the Bolt, Kia, and Hyundai are competitors. 
The fact of the matter is that ICE cars are the only competition, and 
that there are those able to fill all price points is good for everyone. 
 I don't expect Porsche to build all the worlds pickup trucks, and so 
to expect Tesla to single-handedly satisfy all BEV price points is 
equally absurd.


For anyone who noticed I changed the subject line, again:
 You may appreciate this video from SMR of Solving the Money Problem
 Be warned, SMR is a Hyper-Bull, wears his bias on his sleeve:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JD1ftXYrWM&t=8m20s
 8:20 Analysis: Tesla uses its profits as a weapon in an EV price war
 Cite: 
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-uses-its-profits-weapon-an-ev-price-war-2023-01-19/


On 1/18/2023 4:23 PM, Bobby Keeland via EV wrote:

Ryan Fulcher said “I've yet to see any contract that anyone has...

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla slashes its car prices for speculator reasons in click bait headline says advertisers who tesla never advertise with ($35k is here) (Tesla≠TaTa)

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

($35k Tesla is here)
(Tesla≠TaTa)

It's curious to classify MSRP as "Sky High" when for over a decade they
have sold every single car they have ever produced...  It appears that the
market has no problem paying whatever the price happens to be...  It
couldn't possibly be that they lowered prices so that both the 5 and 7 seat
model Y would qualify for the IRA rebates, as opposed to previously where
only the 7 seat was an SUV ($80k max MSRP) and the 5 seat version was a
sedan ($55k max MSRP)?  Very strange indeed.

The US Model3 is $9k away and the China Model3 is $2k under that $35k price
target...
Also... Tesla is not beholden to satisfy some expectation we each may hold
in our
minds regarding affordability of a luxury commodity that is a new vehicle.

I've yet to see any contract that anyone has signed that says that Tesla
is going to deliver them a car for $35k, just as I don't expect any of the
legacy prototype cars to actually show up in a dealers show room.
I don't quite understand how people can justify their selective criticism
of Tesla.

Regarding Prices, these are always relative (As Of Jan 2023):

Is this close enough to the $35k car for anyone?
https://twitter.com/TroyTeslike/status/1613747950080909312
* Tesla Model 3 RWD After US Tax Credit: $36,490

https://twitter.com/SawyerMerritt/status/1613743473928343554
• Model S:$94,990 (from $104,990,  9.5% drop)
• Model S Plaid: $114,990 (from $135,990, 15.4% drop)
• Model X:   $109,990 (from $120,990,  9.1% drop)
• Model X Plaid: $119,990 (from $138,990, 13.7% drop)

https://twitter.com/SawyerMerritt/status/1613740973342838784
• Model 3 RWD: $43,990 (from $46,990,  6.4% drop)
• Model 3 P:   $53,990 (from $62,990, 14.2% drop)
• Model Y LR:  $52,990 (from $65,990, 20.0% drop) Long Range
• Model Y P:   $56,990 (from $69,990, 23.0% drop)

https://twitter.com/SawyerMerritt/status/1611184353106616327
• Model 3 RWD: $33,023 (11.7% drop)
• Model 3 P:   $48,014 ( 5.7% drop)
• Model Y SR:  $37,826 (10.0% drop)
• Model Y LR:  $45,103 (13.4% drop)
• Model Y P:   $52,381 ( 9.5% drop)

I have had a Leaf and a Bolt, and they are not the same as a Tesla, you
might as well compare it to the TATA Mini or Nano: I doubt that a family of
four would survive a 300 foot plunge off a cliff (
https://twitter.com/driveteslaca/status/1610080891442958336) in a Tata
Mini. You can not seriously be comparing the objectively safest vehicles
ever tested with a (relatively speaking) "death trap" of a "glorified golf
cart" while making a cost comparison?
*
https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-3-lowest-probability-injury-any-vehicle-ever-tested-nhtsa
*
https://www.vandi4u.com/safety/crash-test-report/tata-nano-crash-test-ratings/
You might as well be arguing that a huffy bicycle or a citi car or a
sparrow or a GEM is cheaper and thus Tesla cars are not affordable.  At
least compare it to something in the same ball park like the Kia Niro,
Chevy Bolt, BMW i4, Polestar 2, Hyundai IONIQ 5, VW ID4, etc...

"In the past year, Tesla’s stock price has fallen by more than 64% as high
inflation has curbed demand for its electric cars." -- Isn't it strange how
their production has grown an average 50% over a multi year horizon?  Just
as was guided for, and they have sold them all, so not sure how "curbed
demand" can also be true, when they have never been able to build enough to
satisfy demand.

"The company is one of many blue-chip tech stocks that have been battered
by the unhospitable economic climate." -- Try bringing up the tickers for
amazon, alphabet, facebook, or the SP500 for the past year, you may find
the trend lines all match.  Now here is a neat trick, zoom out past the one
year perspective. TSLA stock is not Tesla the company.  Just as Elon is
also not Tesla nor the teams that build and continuously innovate on these
vehicles.

I'm all for a good faith debate about the pros and cons of various OEM
Offerings, Charging network reliability, and government incentives...  But
that is not what the OP NY Post has presented...

On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 2:52 PM John Lussmyer via EV 
wrote:

> Well, I don't consider a Toyota Corolla to be competing with a Cadillac
> Seville.
> Those lower cost EV's aren't really competition.  They are just the
> lower end of the vehicle spectrum.
> And those other EV's aren't being produced in enough volume to be much
> competition either.
>
> On 1/17/2023 2:07 PM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
> > Looks like Elon dropped the sky high prices but not to a down to earth
> $30k for the masses (like his competition, Bolt, Kia, Hyundai
> > Have a renewable energy New Year,
> >
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A

[EVDL] Returning to EVDL after some time.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

Greetings, I'm returning to the EVDL after some years.  I was first active
around 2000-20080ish I believe as rjf at the net domain named dolio I
believe, but I wasn't able to locate my most recent communication in the
archives.  I'll have to dig into the various other forms of archives thatI
used to maintain which have since gone dark and silent.

Back in the day I did a 2005 Prius PHEV-10Mi conversion number 10 named
blue.  Since have had an 2012 OEM Prius-PHEV-12Mi which later became a 2018
Pacifica Hybrid PHEV-33Mi.  On the pure BEV Side, had two Leaf, a Bolt that
was repurchased by GM while I waited on my Tesla Cybertruck.  In the
meantime I went back to a second 2000 Honda Insight.  And just recently got
into a Ford F150 Lightning when my day 1 reservation popped and I figured I
might as well get it while waiting on the CT.

I learned so much from the EVDL back in the day and still have some
projects that I would like to finish following through with instead of
taking the easy road of simply buying an EV.  Anyway, Just wanted to say
hello and sign off the way I think that I used to with...

L8r
 Ryan
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