Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience

[jerry freedomev via EV]

Hi Paul and All,
 According to a long history using batteries Lee is 
exactly correct.
 Doing it bottom balancing it bringing all the 
batteries to a common charge at say 5% based on the particular cell's voltage 
chart.  While in the middle of the pack voltage can't be trusted, at both ends 
they change rapidly, can be used to make each cell the same % charged,/balanced.
 I'll put all my cells in parallel and discharge 
until the 5% charge voltage is reached. Only then  can you rely on them to work 
together without an each cell BMS when assembled into a pack. You can do 
similar top balancing but I believe the biggest danger is on discharge so I 
chose that one.
 Next you need to have some way of finding out if a 
cell, etc is going bad, out of balance as eventually like Lee said, the cells 
will age and divert in spec.  Or could from a weak cell early on. But it will 
happen. 
Luckily Lee's BattBridge circuit splits a pack or 
even 2 cells and if half gets out of balance, it'll give a light warning or 
triggering something like cutting or reducing power/charge.
Along with the Lightobject meter, it's adjustable 
relays and  for fuel gauge, charging cut off and displaying  recording energy 
use and a person who knows how to run it is good, low cost, risk.   I might 
even get 2 of them.  It likely can be used to balance cells one at a time
BTW Lee has forgot more about EV's that you'll 
likely ever know so when he writes something it's usually the best advice 
you'll get. He is an original source so it's according to him,  is rather hard 
to beat.
   Many have tried, lost  by not listening to him on 
EV's, many other things.

 Jerry Dycus



On Monday, October 13, 2014 9:05 PM, Paul Dove via EV  wrote:
 



According to whom?

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 13, 2014, at 1:55 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Cruisin via EV  wrote:
 Using a meter to turn off a charger at a pre-programmed voltage
 can be very risky.
> 
> Paul Dove wrote:
> >> Problem is no one has actually proved that with experimentation.
> >> Not in any of my reading. You can believe what ever you like.
> >>
> >> I have used ammeter for 2 years now. The voltage always end
> >> exactly the same. The next day the pack is the pack is exactly 147
> >> volts.
> 
> Martin WINLOW via EV wrote:
>> The problem I have with relying on simple pack voltage measurement
>> to control the charger is that eventually, as the pack ages, one or
>> more cells are going to go out of balance, become the 'weakest link'
>> and cause the capacity of the pack as a whole to unnecessarily
>> reduce. From a safety perspective (safety of the pack) I suppose the
>> Light-meter method is as good as any but it is the vagueness of its
>> operation that is the issue for me.
> 
> When the pack is new, and if the cells are already well balanced, then 
> measuring the overall voltage works.
> 
> But, the cells might NOT be initially well balanced. If you bought them from 
> the cheapest source, they almost certainly didn't take the time to balance 
> them for you.
> 
> Just because the cells are at the same voltage doesn't mean they are 
> balanced. Voltage is not a good indicator of state of charge for lithium 
> cells.
> 
> Then, the cells are going to age. Time is not likely to improve them; instead 
> it's almost certain to make them worse.
> 
> Finally, consider this. You *will* use the pack until it fails! And the 
> failure modes of lithium cells can be catastrophic (early destruction of an 
> expensive pack, serious fires, etc.) With no BMS, nothing will detect, warn, 
> or prevent disastrous failures.
> 
> -- 
> Failure is only the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.
>-- Henry Ford
> --
> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience

[Paul Dove via EV]

According to whom?

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 13, 2014, at 1:55 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Cruisin via EV  wrote:
 Using a meter to turn off a charger at a pre-programmed voltage
 can be very risky.
> 
> Paul Dove wrote:
> >> Problem is no one has actually proved that with experimentation.
> >> Not in any of my reading. You can believe what ever you like.
> >>
> >> I have used ammeter for 2 years now. The voltage always end
> >> exactly the same. The next day the pack is the pack is exactly 147
> >> volts.
> 
> Martin WINLOW via EV wrote:
>> The problem I have with relying on simple pack voltage measurement
>> to control the charger is that eventually, as the pack ages, one or
>> more cells are going to go out of balance, become the 'weakest link'
>> and cause the capacity of the pack as a whole to unnecessarily
>> reduce. From a safety perspective (safety of the pack) I suppose the
>> Light-meter method is as good as any but it is the vagueness of its
>> operation that is the issue for me.
> 
> When the pack is new, and if the cells are already well balanced, then 
> measuring the overall voltage works.
> 
> But, the cells might NOT be initially well balanced. If you bought them from 
> the cheapest source, they almost certainly didn't take the time to balance 
> them for you.
> 
> Just because the cells are at the same voltage doesn't mean they are 
> balanced. Voltage is not a good indicator of state of charge for lithium 
> cells.
> 
> Then, the cells are going to age. Time is not likely to improve them; instead 
> it's almost certain to make them worse.
> 
> Finally, consider this. You *will* use the pack until it fails! And the 
> failure modes of lithium cells can be catastrophic (early destruction of an 
> expensive pack, serious fires, etc.) With no BMS, nothing will detect, warn, 
> or prevent disastrous failures.
> 
> -- 
> Failure is only the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.
>-- Henry Ford
> --
> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience

[John Lussmyer via EV]

I've got the Blue LED version.  No problem seeing it on sunny days.
Kinda too bright at night though...

On Mon Oct 13 13:46:16 PDT 2014 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>On Sunday, October 12, 2014 10:56 PM, Rick Beebe via EV  
>wrote:
>>
>> I have a JLD-404 that I use as a fuel gauge and it's worked flawlessly for 
>> that.
>
>How do you find the LED display does in bright sun?
>
>Anyone have a nice LCD energy or AH meter they like?


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Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience

[Jan Steinman via EV]

On Sunday, October 12, 2014 10:56 PM, Rick Beebe via EV  
wrote:
> 
> I have a JLD-404 that I use as a fuel gauge and it's worked flawlessly for 
> that.

How do you find the LED display does in bright sun?

Anyone have a nice LCD energy or AH meter they like?

 Any feelings of negativity that you carry around are only hurting 
yourself. These feelings are stored in your body and become like a rotting core 
of energy that poisons your every moment. Why encumber yourself with feelings 
of anger, hatred, and thirst for revenge? Any negative feelings you harbor do 
not hurt the person they are directed to; these feelings only hurt the person 
who is carrying them — YOU. -- Marie T. Russell
 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience

[Lee Hart via EV]

Cruisin via EV  wrote:

Using a meter to turn off a charger at a pre-programmed voltage
can be very risky.


Paul Dove wrote:
>> Problem is no one has actually proved that with experimentation.
>> Not in any of my reading. You can believe what ever you like.
>>
>> I have used ammeter for 2 years now. The voltage always end
>> exactly the same. The next day the pack is the pack is exactly 147
>> volts.

Martin WINLOW via EV wrote:

The problem I have with relying on simple pack voltage measurement
to control the charger is that eventually, as the pack ages, one or
more cells are going to go out of balance, become the 'weakest link'
and cause the capacity of the pack as a whole to unnecessarily
reduce. From a safety perspective (safety of the pack) I suppose the
Light-meter method is as good as any but it is the vagueness of its
operation that is the issue for me.


When the pack is new, and if the cells are already well balanced, then 
measuring the overall voltage works.


But, the cells might NOT be initially well balanced. If you bought them 
from the cheapest source, they almost certainly didn't take the time to 
balance them for you.


Just because the cells are at the same voltage doesn't mean they are 
balanced. Voltage is not a good indicator of state of charge for lithium 
cells.


Then, the cells are going to age. Time is not likely to improve them; 
instead it's almost certain to make them worse.


Finally, consider this. You *will* use the pack until it fails! And the 
failure modes of lithium cells can be catastrophic (early destruction of 
an expensive pack, serious fires, etc.) With no BMS, nothing will 
detect, warn, or prevent disastrous failures.


--
Failure is only the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.
-- Henry Ford
--
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Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience

[jerry freedomev via EV]

   Hi Rick and All,

   Thanks all for the experiences so far.  I appreciate it 
as do others.Please let us know how yours is working with lithium charging 
too as we need a good sample as we need a good low cost wthr meter especially 
with adjustable relay  outputs.
Cruisin, yes I know more complicated BMS, pricey,  
could be better thought not necessarily,  but bottom balancing with top voltage 
charging limit and Lee Hart's Battery Bridge fault indicators will alert me to 
a bad cell if and when that happens. 
I haven't found enough on yours to know if it is good for 
me or not.  Is there details, price on it somewhere I can study?
While 1 BattB on the whole pack could work 1 per 2 
modules housed in a lightproof box to a phototransistor or an optical coupler  
would at low cost monitor each module if needed for fault conditions of not 
just a bad cell but connections, etc that can damage too.
Since EV production car lithium specs are so tight this 
can work it seems along with not discharging below 10% and not charging above 
95%  is likely a good way to go. Since it has worked on even the better of 
Chinese lithium, LG cells shouldn't be a problem.
I'll charge full power until the end as it'll show a 
fault better, before damage happens in my system is the plan.
 Please those doing similar or other version please let 
me/us know how it's doing?

  Thanks,
   Jerry Dycus
 .  


On Sunday, October 12, 2014 10:56 PM, Rick Beebe via EV  
wrote:
  


I have a JLD-404 that I use as a fuel gauge and it's worked flawlessly
for that. It seems to be pretty accurate. I have bought things from EVTV 
even though they are more expensive than other sources, but these I buy 
right from lightobject because Jack has cranked up the price way too 
much. Their shipping is fair and quick.

I also use one of their JLD-612DC temperature controllers to control the 
water heater in my truck. It too works well.

A problem, however, with controlling a charger is knowing what to 
trigger on. The normal charge scheme is to charge to a certain voltage 
at whatever amperage you can manage and then hold that voltage and taper 
the current off to some small value. I don't think you can really 
duplicate that. I suppose you could turn it off at some voltage and when 
the pack voltage drops (which it will almost immediately) turn it back 
on until it stops dropping below the threshold.

You could trigger on Ah but I always put more in than I took out so 
that's problematic too.

--Rick


On 10/12/2014 3:10 PM, jerry freedomev via EV wrote:
> Hi All, In my continuing fight to lower lithium battery pack costs I
> was wondering if anyone has experience with the Lightobject Wthr ,
> etc meter  like the one EVTV made the vid of they rebranded?
> Especially interested in it's use turning off the battery charger and
> how well it keeps track of battery capacity of lithium packs, etc?
>> Thanks,
> Jerry Dycus

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Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience

[Martin WINLOW via EV]

The problem I have with relying on simple pack voltage measurement to control 
the charger is that eventually, as the pack ages, one or more cells are going 
to go out of balance, become the 'weakest link' and cause the capacity of the 
pack as a whole to unnecessarily reduce.  From a safety perspective (safety of 
the pack) I suppose the Light-meter method is as good as any but it is the 
vagueness of its operation that is the issue for me.

Maybe we'll see that cells of certain types simply don't change their behaviour 
relative to the rest in a given pack but it seems unlikely.  If the pack does 
go out of whack then it is going to be a potential pain to balance them 
manually.  But for some the cost saving of not having a BMMS may outweigh the 
agro. MW


On 12 Oct 2014, at 22:11, Paul Dove via EV  wrote:

> Problem is no one has actually proved that with experimentation. Not in any 
> of my reading. You can believe what ever you like.
> 
> I have used ammeter for 2 years now. The voltage always end exactly the same. 
> The next day the pack is the pack is exactly 147 volts.
> 
> I have never seen any study done on top balancing lithium batteries. I would 
> love it if someone should come up with one. That a left over procedure from 
> lead acid batteries on which it actually works.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Oct 12, 2014, at 4:02 PM, Cruisin via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Using a meter to turn off a charger at a pre-programmed voltage can be very
>> risky. A BMS is designed to perform this function, but turns off the charger
>> when a single cell reaches the pre-programmed voltage, after permitting all
>> cells to achieve the same voltage by shunting. It also protects against over
>> dis-discharge. A single meter cannot perform these tasks in anyway shape or
>> form. The SOC meter provides all the information concerning usage and is
>> VERY accurate and programmable. All American electric production cars use
>> very sophisticated BMS systems to achieve longevity due to a mandatory
>> 8-year 100k mile warranty required in CA. Don't risk a expensive Li-ion
>> battery pack by relying on a meter to shutoff the charger at a set voltage.
>> Could be used as a backup if desired. If we learn from the big guns on how
>> they do it, we will be on the right track and prevent a disaster that too
>> many can attest to. My 2-cents worth.
>> 

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Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience

[Paul Dove via EV]

I skip constant voltage. My cell voltage at the end of charge is 3.34 volts 
after settling for several hours.

When I use cc - cv mode they settle to 3.38 volts.

You don't loose more than a couple miles range by skipping the cv mode.

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 12, 2014, at 9:56 PM, Rick Beebe via EV  wrote:
> 
> I have a JLD-404 that I use as a fuel gauge and it's worked flawlessly
> for that. It seems to be pretty accurate. I have bought things from EVTV even 
> though they are more expensive than other sources, but these I buy right from 
> lightobject because Jack has cranked up the price way too much. Their 
> shipping is fair and quick.
> 
> I also use one of their JLD-612DC temperature controllers to control the 
> water heater in my truck. It too works well.
> 
> A problem, however, with controlling a charger is knowing what to trigger on. 
> The normal charge scheme is to charge to a certain voltage at whatever 
> amperage you can manage and then hold that voltage and taper the current off 
> to some small value. I don't think you can really duplicate that. I suppose 
> you could turn it off at some voltage and when the pack voltage drops (which 
> it will almost immediately) turn it back on until it stops dropping below the 
> threshold.
> 
> You could trigger on Ah but I always put more in than I took out so that's 
> problematic too.
> 
> --Rick
> 
>> On 10/12/2014 3:10 PM, jerry freedomev via EV wrote:
>> Hi All, In my continuing fight to lower lithium battery pack costs I
>> was wondering if anyone has experience with the Lightobject Wthr ,
>> etc meter  like the one EVTV made the vid of they rebranded?
>> Especially interested in it's use turning off the battery charger and
>> how well it keeps track of battery capacity of lithium packs, etc?
>>> Thanks,
>> Jerry Dycus
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience

[Rick Beebe via EV]

I have a JLD-404 that I use as a fuel gauge and it's worked flawlessly
for that. It seems to be pretty accurate. I have bought things from EVTV 
even though they are more expensive than other sources, but these I buy 
right from lightobject because Jack has cranked up the price way too 
much. Their shipping is fair and quick.


I also use one of their JLD-612DC temperature controllers to control the 
water heater in my truck. It too works well.


A problem, however, with controlling a charger is knowing what to 
trigger on. The normal charge scheme is to charge to a certain voltage 
at whatever amperage you can manage and then hold that voltage and taper 
the current off to some small value. I don't think you can really 
duplicate that. I suppose you could turn it off at some voltage and when 
the pack voltage drops (which it will almost immediately) turn it back 
on until it stops dropping below the threshold.


You could trigger on Ah but I always put more in than I took out so 
that's problematic too.


--Rick

On 10/12/2014 3:10 PM, jerry freedomev via EV wrote:

Hi All, In my continuing fight to lower lithium battery pack costs I
was wondering if anyone has experience with the Lightobject Wthr ,
etc meter  like the one EVTV made the vid of they rebranded?
Especially interested in it's use turning off the battery charger and
how well it keeps track of battery capacity of lithium packs, etc?

Thanks,

Jerry Dycus


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Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience

[Michael Ross via EV]

Jerry,

I have several JLD temperature controllers in service about my lab and they
work flawlessly so far.  Based on their performance I happily bought the
WattHour meter, but I haven't really used it yet.  For the cost they are
certainly worth a try.

Mike



On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 3:10 PM, jerry freedomev via EV 
wrote:

> Hi All,
>  In my continuing fight to lower lithium battery pack
> costs I was wondering if anyone has experience with the Lightobject Wthr ,
> etc meter  like the one EVTV made the vid of they
>  rebranded?
>  Especially interested in it's use turning off the
> battery charger and how well it keeps track of battery capacity of lithium
> packs, etc?
>
>Thanks,
> Jerry Dycus
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Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience

[Paul Dove via EV]

Problem is no one has actually proved that with experimentation. Not in any of 
my reading. You can believe what ever you like.

I have used ammeter for 2 years now. The voltage always end exactly the same. 
The next day the pack is the pack is exactly 147 volts.

I have never seen any study done on top balancing lithium batteries. I would 
love it if someone should come up with one. That a left over procedure from 
lead acid batteries on which it actually works.

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 12, 2014, at 4:02 PM, Cruisin via EV  wrote:
> 
> Using a meter to turn off a charger at a pre-programmed voltage can be very
> risky. A BMS is designed to perform this function, but turns off the charger
> when a single cell reaches the pre-programmed voltage, after permitting all
> cells to achieve the same voltage by shunting. It also protects against over
> dis-discharge. A single meter cannot perform these tasks in anyway shape or
> form. The SOC meter provides all the information concerning usage and is
> VERY accurate and programmable. All American electric production cars use
> very sophisticated BMS systems to achieve longevity due to a mandatory
> 8-year 100k mile warranty required in CA. Don't risk a expensive Li-ion
> battery pack by relying on a meter to shutoff the charger at a set voltage.
> Could be used as a backup if desired. If we learn from the big guns on how
> they do it, we will be on the right track and prevent a disaster that too
> many can attest to. My 2-cents worth.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Lightobject-meter-experience-tp4672073p4672079.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience

[Cruisin via EV]

Using a meter to turn off a charger at a pre-programmed voltage can be very
risky. A BMS is designed to perform this function, but turns off the charger
when a single cell reaches the pre-programmed voltage, after permitting all
cells to achieve the same voltage by shunting. It also protects against over
dis-discharge. A single meter cannot perform these tasks in anyway shape or
form. The SOC meter provides all the information concerning usage and is
VERY accurate and programmable. All American electric production cars use
very sophisticated BMS systems to achieve longevity due to a mandatory
8-year 100k mile warranty required in CA. Don't risk a expensive Li-ion
battery pack by relying on a meter to shutoff the charger at a set voltage.
Could be used as a backup if desired. If we learn from the big guns on how
they do it, we will be on the right track and prevent a disaster that too
many can attest to. My 2-cents worth.



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[EVDL] Lightobject meter experience

[John Lussmyer via EV]

I'm using the DC AH meter.  I'm not currently using it's relay outputs for 
anything.
The AH counting seems to be at least consistent, though since I don't currently 
have any other meters to compare it to, I can't tell accuracy.
I generally use it to tell how many AH's I've used - pretty much as a fuel 
gauge.

On Sun Oct 12 12:10:53 PDT 2014 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>In my continuing fight to lower lithium battery pack costs I was wondering if 
>anyone has experience with the Lightobject Wthr , etc meter  like the one EVTV 
>made the vid of they
>rebranded?
>Especially interested in it's use turning off the battery charger and how well 
>it keeps track of battery capacity of lithium packs, etc?


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Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience

[Paul Dove via EV]

It is just a panel meter. I use one to turn off my charger. It has worked fine 
for that and it seems accurate but I haven't compared it to other data.

Capacity is another issue since it drops slightly with every charge and 
discharge cycle.

It will keep good record of what was put in. I haven't used mine both for 
charge and discharge so I have no experience there but it worked fine for 
turning off the charger and counting Amphours.

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 12, 2014, at 2:10 PM, jerry freedomev via EV  wrote:
> 
>Hi All,
> In my continuing fight to lower lithium battery pack 
> costs I was wondering if anyone has experience with the Lightobject Wthr , 
> etc meter  like the one EVTV made the vid of they
> rebranded?
> Especially interested in it's use turning off the battery 
> charger and how well it keeps track of battery capacity of lithium packs, etc?
> 
>   Thanks,
>Jerry Dycus
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[EVDL] Lightobject meter experience

[jerry freedomev via EV]

Hi All,
 In my continuing fight to lower lithium battery pack costs 
I was wondering if anyone has experience with the Lightobject Wthr , etc meter  
like the one EVTV made the vid of they
 rebranded?
 Especially interested in it's use turning off the battery 
charger and how well it keeps track of battery capacity of lithium packs, etc?

   Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
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