Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[David Nelson via EV]

Very short on important details like what chemistry cell did they use.
If LiFePO4 they were doomed when they used 4.0V and 4.2V as their
charge voltages. If some other chemistry then maybe not. They also
don't show any reversible capacity loss data. Why? A very poorly done
paper without enough information to know if the results are even worth
anything.


On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
 wrote:
> David,
>
> Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside a 
> Li-Ion cell
> that cause self-discharge. Happy reading!
> http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
>
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
>
> Bill,
>
> I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work 
> and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge 
> mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge 
> shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
>
> One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle 
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, 
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable 
> Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 
> 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
>
> While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, 
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of 
> searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It 
> was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.
>
> If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is 
> please share it.
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
>> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
>> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
>>
>> All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree.
>> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS.
>> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to
>> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply
>> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
>>
>> I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from
>> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
>>
>> Bill D.
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
> http://www.levforum.com
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-- 
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Sounds possible.  My thoughts:

Unfortunately, voltage is not a great way to evaluate cells, but that
sounds good FWIW.  Is your meter really reliable, and accurate to measure
±0.001 volts? under conditions of different temperature?  Is the accuracy
reall somewhat less good than ±0.001V?   Recently calibrated?  It is such a
small amount that noise may be what you have read.  The first time you read
them was that 3.3V?  Or 3.300V?  Different meters used?  To me 3.3V
possibly means ±0.1V.

One of the  last things Dahn says in his lecture is essentially - want your
cells to last a long time?  Put them in the refrigerator very chance you
get. Hard to do h an EV pack.  Temperature is the enemy, and especially
with LFP.  Where were they stored for 16 months?  It really becomes and
important question when people are claiming a cell lasted or degraded of
such and such a period of time.  Also the SOC% which is hard to know
without a full cycle and Ah measurement.  That is really the topic change
in amount of stored charge, not voltage changes.  LFP particularly sees a
lot of change in charge for little change in voltage.

On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Paul Dove via EV  wrote:

> Here's my observation I received my cells and new the measured 3.3 volts.
> 16 months later when I put then in the vehicle they measured 3.298 and
> 3.297.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Jun 20, 2015, at 12:39 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > One last question and then I prefer not to extend this subject any
> longer since it appears beaten to death:
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul and Michael,
> >
> > Did you guys actually *measure* Li-Ion cells over extended period to
> verify if they show self-discharge or not?
> >
> > Because the interesting thing is that self-discharge is not only well
> defined (so it must be an issue) but it appears
> >
> > that everyone who measured Li-Ion cells over extended time periods (and
> not just a quick voltage check that they still had juice)
> >
> > is convinced that they do show self-discharge.
> >
> > To me, it seems to be the classical case of “in theory, there should be
> no difference between practice and theory. In practice, however…”.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> >
> > Chief Scientist
> >
> > Proxim Wireless
> >
> >
> >
> > office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> >
> > XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info <
> http://www.cvandewater.info>
> >
> > www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
> message is prohibited.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 6:30 AM
> > To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
> >
> >
> >
> > I think this is going to come down to semantics and word definition.
> >
> >
> >
> > I bet Popov never looks into self discharge because it is a basic non
> existent occurrence in lithium ion batteries. Which is what Paul Dove and I
> have been saying.  I saw in the paper linked by Cor that he used self
> discharge referring to capacity loss.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is Dr. Popov's website:
> >
> >
> http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php
> > <
> http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I went through the occurrences of "lithium" in the list and copied them
> for your edification below.
> >
> > I will pull out the ones that seem pertinent to self discharge and
> capacity loss in a separate posting.  Mostly that is not what Popov is
> concerned with.
> >
> >
> >
> > *snip*
> >
> > -- next part --
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Paul Dove via EV]

Here's my observation I received my cells and new the measured 3.3 volts. 16 
months later when I put then in the vehicle they measured 3.298 and 3.297.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 20, 2015, at 12:39 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> One last question and then I prefer not to extend this subject any longer 
> since it appears beaten to death:
> 
> 
> 
> Paul and Michael,
> 
> Did you guys actually *measure* Li-Ion cells over extended period to verify 
> if they show self-discharge or not?
> 
> Because the interesting thing is that self-discharge is not only well defined 
> (so it must be an issue) but it appears
> 
> that everyone who measured Li-Ion cells over extended time periods (and not 
> just a quick voltage check that they still had juice)
> 
> is convinced that they do show self-discharge.
> 
> To me, it seems to be the classical case of “in theory, there should be no 
> difference between practice and theory. In practice, however…”.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> Cor van de Water
> 
> Chief Scientist
> 
> Proxim Wireless
> 
> 
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> 
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
> <http://www.cvandewater.info> 
> 
> www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com/> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
> 
> 
> 
> From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 6:30 AM
> To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is going to come down to semantics and word definition. 
> 
> 
> 
> I bet Popov never looks into self discharge because it is a basic non 
> existent occurrence in lithium ion batteries. Which is what Paul Dove and I 
> have been saying.  I saw in the paper linked by Cor that he used self 
> discharge referring to capacity loss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Dr. Popov's website:
> 
> http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php
> <http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php>
>  
> 
> 
> 
> I went through the occurrences of "lithium" in the list and copied them for 
> your edification below. 
> 
> I will pull out the ones that seem pertinent to self discharge and capacity 
> loss in a separate posting.  Mostly that is not what Popov is concerned with.
> 
> 
> 
> *snip*
> 
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Michael Ross via EV]

"I’m not sure what you mean by this."

I am comparing to the lead acid chemistry where the charged state has a
competing lower thermodynamic state, so a charge lead acid cell always runs
down even in the absence of any short circuit or load.  One of the neat
things about Li ion cells that this condition does not exist.  This is the
self discharge that I am talking about.

Well, Dahn says very clearly in his lecture "there is no redox shuttle"
back to the positive electrode. It is in answer to a question in the last
10 minutes.

He is talking mostly about Li Metal O2, like LiCOO2; not the LFP, usually.
But I don't believe the activity at the negative, graphene electrode (as
opposed to the LFP positive electrode)  is any different in an LFP cell.
The secret sauce of intercalation is the bistable nature it imparts to Li
ion cells.  The ions end up nestled with a circle of carbon atoms above and
below that has no motivation for change (thermodynamically stable).  In the
Linden's Handbook of Batteries, Chapter 26, by Dr. Dahn is a nice
discussion of how the negative electrode is manufactured, how and why it
works.

It is possible to make a negative electrode poorly.  If the graphene is
misaligned, poorly made, and so on, you can get ions into the electrode,
but it would not be stable and the capacity would be low.

"If a low enough resistance path for electrons to the cathode
is provided, lithium will move back to the cathode to combine with electrons
there and form LiFePO4
​"

I pretty much said the same thing.  However, good cells don't have this.​

"
No cells I know of are using graphene for one of the electrodes.  People are
experimenting with it, but no cells in production.
"

You are incorrect or maybe talking about LFP cells again. It is very hard
to know everything that is going on, and lots of information becomes
quickly dated.  Check out the Linden's Handbook.​

On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 9:57 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:

> /“A lithium cell has no thermodynamic forcing function to move the ions
> back
> to the positive electrode.  Stating this in the terms above - neither of
> the
> discharged or charge states are more stable than the other.”/
>
> I’m not sure what you mean by this.
>
> Jay Whitacre (Materials Science, Carnegie Mellon): The phase change LiFePO4
> to FePO4 occurs at 3.4V, redox reaction.  During charging all lithium
> leaves
> the cathode, now have 3.4V driving Li back to the cathode when the charger
> is disconnected.
> - that's from the video I posted a link to after I posted the link to the
> video by Dahn. If a low enough resistance path for electrons to the cathode
> is provided, lithium will move back to the cathode to combine with
> electrons
> there and form LiFePO4, driven by the 3.4V chemical potential, with no
> external potential applied as during charging. Maybe by "stable" you mean
> this won't happen unless a low enough resistance path is provided, such as
> dendrites through the separator, conducting contamination on the cell
> packaging surface between electrodes, or an external wire connection.
>
> /"A lot of the effort that goes into forming the negative electrode has to
> do with physically arranging little plates of graphene so that there is a
> large percentage of the volume in this fortuitous geometry."/
>
> No cells I know of are using graphene for one of the electrodes.  People
> are
> experimenting with it, but no cells in production.  Most use "specially
> formulated" graphite. Maybe that's what you meant since the carbon atoms
> bound in hexagons are arranged in sheets in graphite. Graphene is of course
> one of those single sheets, famously lifted with tape from a pencil mark
> when first studied, so I guess that is what you mean rather than an actual
> graphene electrode which would have quite different properties than
> graphite.
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Bicycle-battery-tp4676242p4676429.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
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>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[tomw via EV]

/“A lithium cell has no thermodynamic forcing function to move the ions back
to the positive electrode.  Stating this in the terms above - neither of the
discharged or charge states are more stable than the other.”/

I’m not sure what you mean by this.

Jay Whitacre (Materials Science, Carnegie Mellon): The phase change LiFePO4
to FePO4 occurs at 3.4V, redox reaction.  During charging all lithium leaves
the cathode, now have 3.4V driving Li back to the cathode when the charger
is disconnected.
- that's from the video I posted a link to after I posted the link to the
video by Dahn. If a low enough resistance path for electrons to the cathode
is provided, lithium will move back to the cathode to combine with electrons
there and form LiFePO4, driven by the 3.4V chemical potential, with no
external potential applied as during charging. Maybe by "stable" you mean
this won't happen unless a low enough resistance path is provided, such as
dendrites through the separator, conducting contamination on the cell
packaging surface between electrodes, or an external wire connection.

/"A lot of the effort that goes into forming the negative electrode has to
do with physically arranging little plates of graphene so that there is a
large percentage of the volume in this fortuitous geometry."/

No cells I know of are using graphene for one of the electrodes.  People are
experimenting with it, but no cells in production.  Most use "specially
formulated" graphite. Maybe that's what you meant since the carbon atoms
bound in hexagons are arranged in sheets in graphite. Graphene is of course
one of those single sheets, famously lifted with tape from a pencil mark
when first studied, so I guess that is what you mean rather than an actual
graphene electrode which would have quite different properties than
graphite.




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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Michael Ross via EV]

i, Jun 19, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
>  wrote:
> > David,
> >
> > Why do all manufacturers of Li-Ion batteries specify the amount of
> self-discharge
> > and why do people like me who monitor Li-Ion batteries over time, see
> and measure
> > the self-discharge?
> > I understand that you say "theoretical" the pure Li-Ion cell may not
> have a
> > self discharge mechanism and thus the actual present self-discharge
> appears to be
> > a spurious effect, possibly caused by contamination, so the amount of
> self-discharge
> > is a quality indicator of the (lack of) contamination in the cell...
> >
> > However, saying that the ideal (theoretical) cell does not have any
> self-discharge is as valuable
> > as saying that the ideal (theoretical) connection does not have any
> resistance.
> > In practice however you better take that resistance into account when
> sizing your wiring and connections.
> > Similar to taking self-discharge (and especially the difference in
> self-discharge between cells) into account
> > when designing a battery pack.
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Chief Scientist
> > Proxim Wireless
> >
> > office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
> > XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
> > www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
> message is prohibited.
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson
> via EV
> > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> > To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they
> work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical
> self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the
> lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
> >
> > One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart,
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based
> Rechargeable Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004,
> Vol. 104, No. 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
> >
> > While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say,
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> > This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> > Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a
> lot of searching of the scientific literature and came to the same
> conclusion. It was not just something they made up to support their
> anti-BMS position.
> >
> > If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism
> is please share it.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV 
> wrote:
> >> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
> >> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
> >>
> >> All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree.
> >> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need
> a BMS.
> >> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to
> >> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply
> >> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
> >>
> >> I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from
> >> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
> >>
> >> Bill D.
> >>
> >> ___
> >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David D. Nelson
> > http://evalbum.com/1328
> > http://www.levforum.com
> > __

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[David Nelson via EV]

Cor,

Remember that there is a demand from people for some self discharge
number. What easier way than just to make up a number? Maybe that is
what they did and maybe that isn't. Lets not confuse capacity loss
with self discharge. Also, a voltage measurement on a cell left to sit
with no load doesn't prove self discharge either. Your analogy of an
ideal circuit can't be used to size wiring doesn't apply because the
theory does include resistance. I know what you are trying to say,
however. It is just that so many people believe that self discharge
exists and keep speaking it that many, including those who should know
better, ignore things to justify their position. IIRC, you were one
who told me that my battery pack would be way out of balance in a
short period of time if I took my BMS boards off. Well, 4 years later
and it hasn't happened. I say this, not to imply you don't know
anything, but to show that we always need to be open to the fact that
we might have missed something.

Watch https://youtu.be/9qi03QawZEk. From the description:

'Published on Sep 6, 2013

On July 30th, 2013, Professor Jeff Dahn of Dalhousie University
delivered a lecture entitled "Why do Li-ion batteries die and can they
be immortal?".'

If you don't want to watch all 1:13:30 of it, which everyone on this
list really should, skip to 1:09 where he directly answers the
question about a charge shuttle reaction. He clearly said that no Li
battery has one built in. Watch to the whole lecture where other
things about Li cells are addressed.


On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
 wrote:
> David,
>
> Why do all manufacturers of Li-Ion batteries specify the amount of 
> self-discharge
> and why do people like me who monitor Li-Ion batteries over time, see and 
> measure
> the self-discharge?
> I understand that you say "theoretical" the pure Li-Ion cell may not have a
> self discharge mechanism and thus the actual present self-discharge appears 
> to be
> a spurious effect, possibly caused by contamination, so the amount of 
> self-discharge
> is a quality indicator of the (lack of) contamination in the cell...
>
> However, saying that the ideal (theoretical) cell does not have any 
> self-discharge is as valuable
> as saying that the ideal (theoretical) connection does not have any 
> resistance.
> In practice however you better take that resistance into account when sizing 
> your wiring and connections.
> Similar to taking self-discharge (and especially the difference in 
> self-discharge between cells) into account
> when designing a battery pack.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
>
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
>
> Bill,
>
> I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work 
> and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge 
> mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge 
> shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
>
> One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle 
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, 
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable 
> Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 
> 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
>
> While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, 
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of 
> searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It 
> was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.
>
> If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is 
> please share it.
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV  

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Paul Dove via EV]

Yes, but I'm not at home now. When I get back to town I'll share my data 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 20, 2015, at 12:39 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> One last question and then I prefer not to extend this subject any longer 
> since it appears beaten to death:
> 
> 
> 
> Paul and Michael,
> 
> Did you guys actually *measure* Li-Ion cells over extended period to verify 
> if they show self-discharge or not?
> 
> Because the interesting thing is that self-discharge is not only well defined 
> (so it must be an issue) but it appears
> 
> that everyone who measured Li-Ion cells over extended time periods (and not 
> just a quick voltage check that they still had juice)
> 
> is convinced that they do show self-discharge.
> 
> To me, it seems to be the classical case of “in theory, there should be no 
> difference between practice and theory. In practice, however…”.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> Cor van de Water
> 
> Chief Scientist
> 
> Proxim Wireless
> 
> 
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> 
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
> <http://www.cvandewater.info> 
> 
> www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com/> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
> 
> 
> 
> From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 6:30 AM
> To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is going to come down to semantics and word definition. 
> 
> 
> 
> I bet Popov never looks into self discharge because it is a basic non 
> existent occurrence in lithium ion batteries. Which is what Paul Dove and I 
> have been saying.  I saw in the paper linked by Cor that he used self 
> discharge referring to capacity loss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Dr. Popov's website:
> 
> http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php
> <http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php>
>  
> 
> 
> 
> I went through the occurrences of "lithium" in the list and copied them for 
> your edification below. 
> 
> I will pull out the ones that seem pertinent to self discharge and capacity 
> loss in a separate posting.  Mostly that is not what Popov is concerned with.
> 
> 
> 
> *snip*
> 
> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

One last question and then I prefer not to extend this subject any longer since 
it appears beaten to death:

 

Paul and Michael,

Did you guys actually *measure* Li-Ion cells over extended period to verify if 
they show self-discharge or not?

Because the interesting thing is that self-discharge is not only well defined 
(so it must be an issue) but it appears

that everyone who measured Li-Ion cells over extended time periods (and not 
just a quick voltage check that they still had juice)

is convinced that they do show self-discharge.

To me, it seems to be the classical case of “in theory, there should be no 
difference between practice and theory. In practice, however…”.

 

Regards,

 

Cor van de Water

Chief Scientist

Proxim Wireless

 

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water

XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
<http://www.cvandewater.info> 

www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com/> 

 

 

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.

 

From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 6:30 AM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

 

I think this is going to come down to semantics and word definition. 

 

I bet Popov never looks into self discharge because it is a basic non existent 
occurrence in lithium ion batteries. Which is what Paul Dove and I have been 
saying.  I saw in the paper linked by Cor that he used self discharge referring 
to capacity loss.

 

 

 

Here is Dr. Popov's website:

http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php
<http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php>
 

 

I went through the occurrences of "lithium" in the list and copied them for 
your edification below. 

I will pull out the ones that seem pertinent to self discharge and capacity 
loss in a separate posting.  Mostly that is not what Popov is concerned with.

 

*snip*

-- next part --
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<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150620/977f30e9/attachment.htm>
-- next part --
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Name: not available
Type: image/png
Size: 10048 bytes
Desc: image001.png
URL: 
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Michael Ross via EV]

I think this is going to come down to semantics and word definition.

I bet Popov never looks into self discharge because it is a basic non
existent occurrence in lithium ion batteries. Which is what Paul Dove and I
have been saying.  I saw in the paper linked by Cor that he used self
discharge referring to capacity loss.



Here is Dr. Popov's website:
http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php

I went through the occurrences of "lithium" in the list and copied them for
your edification below.
I will pull out the ones that seem pertinent to self discharge and capacity
loss in a separate posting.  Mostly that is not what Popov is concerned
with.

Just so everyone doesn't have to wade through all that here, is the list of
papers with lithium in the title:
(in html this will have highlighting and color changes)



1.B. N. POPOV, W. ZHANG, E. C. DARCY, and R. E. WHITE, "*AC-Impedance
Spectroscopy as a Nondestructive Health Interrogation Tool for Lithium-BCX
Cells,*" J. Electrochem. Soc., 140, 11, 3097-3103 (1993).

2.B. N. Popov and R. E. White, "*Battery Work at University of South
Carolina*," Automotive Technology Development, 1, 371--397 (1997). DOE,
Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, Office of Transportation
Technologies, Washington, DC.

3.B. N. Popov and R. E. White, "*Development of Novel Cathode Materials for
Li-ion Batteries*," Ann. Battery Conf. on Appl. and Adv. IEEE 98TH8299,
387--392 (1997).

4.P. ARORA, B. N. POPOV and R. WHITE, "*Electrochemical Investigation of
Cobalt-Doped LiMn2O4 as Cathode Material for Li-ion Batteries*,"
J. Electrochem. Soc., 145, 807 (1998).

5.M. Ramasubramanian, B. N. Popov and R. E. White, and K. S. Chen
"*Experimental
Study and Equilibrium Characteristics of Electroless Copper Deposition on
Thermally-Activated Palladium-catalyzed Polyimide Substrates*," in press in
J. of Appl. Electrochem., (1998).

6.D.ZHANG, B. N. POPOV and R.E.WHITE, "*Electrochemical Investigation of
Chromium Doped LiMn2O4 as a Cathode Material for Lithium-Ion Batteries*,"
in press in J. of Power Sources, (1988).

18.  Anguchamy, Yogesh K, Lee, Jong-Won, Popov, Branko N, “*Electrochemical
performance of polypyrrole/silver vanadium oxide composite cathodes in
lithium primary batteries*”, *J Power Sources*, *184* (2008) 297-302.

21.  Nakayama, Masaharu; Kanaya, Taku; Lee, Jong-Won; Popov, Branko N,
“*Electrochemical
synthesis of birnessite-type layered manganese oxides for rechargeable
lithium batteries*”,  *J** Power Sources*,  *179* (2008) 361-366.

25.  R.P. Ramasamy, J.-W. Lee and B.N. Popov, “*Simulation of Capacity Loss
in Carbon Electrode for Lithium-Ion Cells during Storage*”, *J**. **Power
Sources*, *166* (2007) 266-272.

3.J.-W. Lee, Y.K. Anguchamy and B.N. Popov, “Simulation of
Charge-Discharge Cycling of Lithium-Ion Batteries under Low-Earth-Orbit
Conditions”, *J. Power Sources*, 162 (2006) 1395-1400. PDF


5.   J.-W. Lee and B.N. Popov, “Electrochemical Intercalation of Lithium in
to Polypyrrole/Silver Vanadium Oxide Composite Used for Lithium Primary
Batteries”, *J. Power Sources*, 161 (2006) 565-572. PDF



15. G. Sikha, R.E. White and B.N. Popov, “A Mathematical Model for a
Lithium-Ion Battery/Electrochemical Capacitor Hybrid System”,
*J. Electrochem.** Soc* 152 (2005) A1682-A1693. PDF


16. R.P. Ramasamy, R.E. White and B.N. Popov, “*Calendar Life
Performance of Pouch Lithium Ion Cells*”, *J. Power Sources*, 141 (2005)
298. PDF


18. G. Sikha, B.N. Popov and R.E. White, “*Effects of Porosity on the
Capacity of A Lithium Ion Battery: Theory*”, *J. Electrochem. Soc., 151
(2004) A1104.* PDF


21. G. Ning and B.N. Popov, “*Cycle Life Modeling of Lithium Ion
Batteries*”, *J. Electrochem.** Soc., 151 (2004) A1584.* PDF


29. R.P. Ramasamy, P. Ramadass, B.S. Haran and B.N. Popov*, “Synthesis,
Characterization and Cycling Performance of Novel Chromium Oxide Cathode
Materials for Lithium Batteries*”, *J. Power Sources,* 124 (2003) 155. PDF


30. R.P. Ramasamy, B. Veeraraghavan, B. Haran and B. Popov*,
“Electrochemical Characterization of Polypyrrole-Co0.2CrOx Composites as
Cathode Material for Lithium Ion Batteries*”, *J. Power Sources, *124
(2003) 197. PDF


33. N. Gang, B. Haran and B. Popov, “*Capacity Fade Study of Lithium
Ion Batteries Cycled at High Discharge Rates*”, *J. Power Source

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Right the paper is about some of the failure modes of Li ion cells.  How
they degrade in ability to take charge, not whether the negative electrode
spontaneously de-lithiates which is another way of saying self discharge.

I am fine with - if you run the cells improperly the negative electrode SEI
grows and gets clogged by contaminants. Contaminants come from the reactive
nature of the positive electrode when it is delithiated, and there is lots
of study in electrochemistry about that.  Then those reactions take place
the electrolyte is depleted.  Etc., etc.

Still no self discharge.

On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 12:11 AM, Paul Dove via EV 
wrote:

> Did actually read it?
>
> That paper is about capacity loss not voltage drop over time.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Jun 19, 2015, at 7:58 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > David,
> >
> > Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside a
> Li-Ion cell
> > that cause self-discharge. Happy reading!
> > http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Chief Scientist
> > Proxim Wireless
> >
> > office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> > XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
> > www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
> message is prohibited.
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson
> via EV
> > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> > To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they
> work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical
> self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the
> lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
> >
> > One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart,
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based
> Rechargeable Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004,
> Vol. 104, No. 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
> >
> > While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say,
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> > This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> > Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a
> lot of searching of the scientific literature and came to the same
> conclusion. It was not just something they made up to support their
> anti-BMS position.
> >
> > If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism
> is please share it.
> >
> >> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV 
> wrote:
> >> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
> >> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
> >>
> >>All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree.
> >> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need
> a BMS.
> >> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to
> >> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply
> >> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
> >>
> >>I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from
> >> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
> >>
> >>Bill D.
> >>
> >> ___
> >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David D. Nelson
> > http://evalbum.com/1328
> > http://www.levforum.com
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Hi Michael,

From the link you could have gone to this prof’s website,

but here is an easy to use list of all his freely available publications,

he has done a lot of work on applications of rechargeable batteries:

http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/website/pubbooks.html

 

Hope this helps,

 

Cor van de Water

Chief Scientist

Proxim Wireless

 

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water

XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
<http://www.cvandewater.info> 

www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com/> 

 

 

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.

 

From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 8:06 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

 

Cor, 

 

There is no author, no date, no publisher, no prior art, and no references.  
Was it in a journal, is the peer review?  Has it been repeated?   Is there a 
more complete copy or a place where it can be purchased? 

 

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
wrote:

David,

Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside a Li-Ion 
cell
that cause self-discharge. Happy reading!
http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626   Skype: 
cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130   private: 
cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

Bill,

I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work and 
I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge 
mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge 
shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.

One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle 
mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, 
however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable 
Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 10, 
pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.

While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, 
"LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of 
searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It was 
not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.

If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is 
please share it.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
>
> All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree.
> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS.
> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to
> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply
> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
>
> I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from
> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
>
> Bill D.
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>



--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Paul Dove via EV]

Did actually read it?

That paper is about capacity loss not voltage drop over time.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 19, 2015, at 7:58 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> David,
> 
> Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside a 
> Li-Ion cell
> that cause self-discharge. Happy reading!
> http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
> 
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
> 
> Bill,
> 
> I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work 
> and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge 
> mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge 
> shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
> 
> One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle 
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, 
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable 
> Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 
> 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
> 
> While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, 
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of 
> searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It 
> was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.
> 
> If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is 
> please share it.
> 
>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
>> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the 
>> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
>> 
>>All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. 
>> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS.
>> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to 
>> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply 
>> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
>> 
>>I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from 
>> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
>> 
>>Bill D.
>> 
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
> 
> 
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
> http://www.levforum.com
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
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> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
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> 
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Michael Ross via EV]

I think it is very valuable knowing that a Li ion cell can hold its charge
indefinitely.  Particularly compared to the incumbent competitor - lead
acid cells.  There is a least an implication that the the loses may be of
no consequence after design and manufacturing improvements.  There is no
possibility of achieving this ever with lead acid.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 8:11 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> David,
>
> Why do all manufacturers of Li-Ion batteries specify the amount of
> self-discharge
> and why do people like me who monitor Li-Ion batteries over time, see and
> measure
> the self-discharge?
> I understand that you say "theoretical" the pure Li-Ion cell may not have a
> self discharge mechanism and thus the actual present self-discharge
> appears to be
> a spurious effect, possibly caused by contamination, so the amount of
> self-discharge
> is a quality indicator of the (lack of) contamination in the cell...
>
> However, saying that the ideal (theoretical) cell does not have any
> self-discharge is as valuable
> as saying that the ideal (theoretical) connection does not have any
> resistance.
> In practice however you better take that resistance into account when
> sizing your wiring and connections.
> Similar to taking self-discharge (and especially the difference in
> self-discharge between cells) into account
> when designing a battery pack.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
>
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
> message is prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via
> EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
>
> Bill,
>
> I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they
> work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical
> self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the
> lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
>
> One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart,
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based
> Rechargeable Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004,
> Vol. 104, No. 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
>
> While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say,
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot
> of searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion.
> It was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.
>
> If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is
> please share it.
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV 
> wrote:
> > This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
> > "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
> >
> > All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree.
> > Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a
> BMS.
> > These are well-documented facts for all those that care to
> > investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply
> > systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
> >
> > I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from
> > the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
> >
> > Bill D.
> >
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
>
>
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
> http://www.levforum.com
> ___

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Cor,

There is no author, no date, no publisher, no prior art, and no
references.  Was it in a journal, is the peer review?  Has it been
repeated?   Is there a more complete copy or a place where it can be
purchased?

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> David,
>
> Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside a
> Li-Ion cell
> that cause self-discharge. Happy reading!
> http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
>
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
> message is prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via
> EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
>
> Bill,
>
> I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they
> work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical
> self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the
> lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
>
> One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart,
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based
> Rechargeable Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004,
> Vol. 104, No. 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
>
> While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say,
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot
> of searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion.
> It was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.
>
> If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is
> please share it.
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV 
> wrote:
> > This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
> > "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
> >
> > All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree.
> > Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a
> BMS.
> > These are well-documented facts for all those that care to
> > investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply
> > systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
> >
> > I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from
> > the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
> >
> > Bill D.
> >
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
>
>
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
> http://www.levforum.com
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

David,

Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside a Li-Ion 
cell
that cause self-discharge. Happy reading!
http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

Bill,

I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work and 
I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge 
mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge 
shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.

One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle 
mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, 
however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable 
Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 10, 
pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.

While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, 
"LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of 
searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It was 
not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.

If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is 
please share it.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the 
> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
>
> All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. 
> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS.
> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to 
> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply 
> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
>
> I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from 
> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
>
> Bill D.
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>



--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
___
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Paul Dove via EV]

The specify a self discharge rate because people asked for it. All the ones 
I've seen say less than 1%. Well zero is less than 1%

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 19, 2015, at 7:11 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> David,
> 
> Why do all manufacturers of Li-Ion batteries specify the amount of 
> self-discharge
> and why do people like me who monitor Li-Ion batteries over time, see and 
> measure
> the self-discharge?
> I understand that you say "theoretical" the pure Li-Ion cell may not have a
> self discharge mechanism and thus the actual present self-discharge appears 
> to be
> a spurious effect, possibly caused by contamination, so the amount of 
> self-discharge
> is a quality indicator of the (lack of) contamination in the cell...
> 
> However, saying that the ideal (theoretical) cell does not have any 
> self-discharge is as valuable
> as saying that the ideal (theoretical) connection does not have any 
> resistance.
> In practice however you better take that resistance into account when sizing 
> your wiring and connections.
> Similar to taking self-discharge (and especially the difference in 
> self-discharge between cells) into account
> when designing a battery pack.
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
> www.proxim.com
> 
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
> message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
> use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
> prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)
> 
> Bill,
> 
> I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work 
> and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge 
> mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge 
> shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.
> 
> One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle 
> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, 
> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable 
> Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 
> 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.
> 
> While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, 
> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
> This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
> Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of 
> searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It 
> was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.
> 
> If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is 
> please share it.
> 
>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
>> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the 
>> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
>> 
>>All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. 
>> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS.
>> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to 
>> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply 
>> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
>> 
>>I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from 
>> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
>> 
>>Bill D.
>> 
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
> 
> 
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
> http://www.levforum.com
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
> (http://g

Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

David,

Why do all manufacturers of Li-Ion batteries specify the amount of 
self-discharge
and why do people like me who monitor Li-Ion batteries over time, see and 
measure
the self-discharge?
I understand that you say "theoretical" the pure Li-Ion cell may not have a
self discharge mechanism and thus the actual present self-discharge appears to 
be
a spurious effect, possibly caused by contamination, so the amount of 
self-discharge
is a quality indicator of the (lack of) contamination in the cell...

However, saying that the ideal (theoretical) cell does not have any 
self-discharge is as valuable
as saying that the ideal (theoretical) connection does not have any resistance.
In practice however you better take that resistance into account when sizing 
your wiring and connections.
Similar to taking self-discharge (and especially the difference in 
self-discharge between cells) into account
when designing a battery pack.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM
To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

Bill,

I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work and 
I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge 
mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge 
shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however.

One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle 
mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, 
however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable 
Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 10, 
pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004.

While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, 
"LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of 
searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It was 
not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position.

If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is 
please share it.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the 
> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
>
> All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. 
> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS.
> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to 
> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply 
> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
>
> I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from 
> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
>
> Bill D.
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>



--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
___
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[David Nelson via EV]

Bill,

I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they
work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical
self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about
the lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries,
however.

One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge
shuttle mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint
of heart, however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for
Lithium-Based Rechargeable Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the
Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published
on the web 09/16/2004.

While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I
say, "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism."
This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true.
Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a
lot of searching of the scientific literature and came to the same
conclusion. It was not just something they made up to support their
anti-BMS position.

If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism
is please share it.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the
> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
>
> All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. Also,
> the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS.
> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to investigate,
> either through the scientific literature or by simply systematically testing
> cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
>
> I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from the
> same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
>
> Bill D.
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>



-- 
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
___
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Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Paul Dove via EV]

Then explain how this happens in a Li-Ion battery. What is the self discharge 
mechanism? 

Give me the science!

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 19, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> 
> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the 
> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.
> 
>All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. Also, the 
> self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS. These are 
> well-documented facts for all those that care to investigate, either through 
> the scientific literature or by simply systematically testing cells for 
> themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)
> 
>I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from the same 
> unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.
> 
>Bill D.
> 
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[EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery)

[Bill Dube via EV]

This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the 
"anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from.


	All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. Also, 
the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a 
BMS. These are well-documented facts for all those that care to 
investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply 
systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.)


	I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from the 
same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from.


Bill D.

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