Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[Danny Ames via EV]

 The Tesla ADAS circuit board is one of the densest and most advanced ever 
created for an automobile. This link "https://youtu.be/VMrR-il8FnI?t=1250" will 
take you to the folks that Sandy Monroe hired, Lumafeild engineers to have it 
CT scanned in extreme detail. 
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Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Rush via EV wrote:
>> I think that anybody having any knowledge of how a business is conducted
>> would say that 'yes, profit is a good thing'.

David Roden wrote:
> Let's restore the context:
>
> As I understood it, and someone correct me if this is wrong, the original
> Tesla "master plan" was to get to mass market EVs. They'd start with
> building luxury EVs for rich people, and use the presumably *hefty* profits
> from that venture to design and build EVs for the rest of us.

To paraphrase the old saying, "Wealth corrupts. Absolute wealth corrupts 
absolutely."

It's one thing to have noble goals, and use money to achieve them. It's quite 
another to let money become your *only* goal. Sadly, the American "Wall Street" 
mentality tends to put money ahead of every other goal. As soon as you become a 
for-profit corporation, the stockholders will demand that you maximize profits, 
no matter what.

Henry Ford wanted to put America on wheels, so he priced his cars so he could 
do it. But once he started to make insane amounts of money, he abandoned that 
goal, and money became an end in itself. He became rather insane in his quest 
for wealth and power.

I think the same thing is happening to Elon Musk. He has all sorts of noble 
goals, and is using his wealth to achieve them. But he is also the head of one 
of the richest corporations in the world, and so faces incredible pressure to 
maximize profits, no matter who it hurts.
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[Rush via EV]

I'm always amazed at how often and vehemently people express their dislike or 
voice negative opinions about Tesla/Musk on this list, while very little is 
said about the other EV manufactures. But I guess that is just because Tesla 
has been the main reason why EV's are so popular and relevant to today's and 
tomorrow's economy and sustainability. Are they not aware of the popularity and 
sheer numbers of Tesla's when compared to Ford's or Renault's or BYD's or 
Rivian's, etc EV's that we all see on our daily trips. I know that here in 
Tucson I see at least one Tesla, sometimes 3, at every stop light.

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Ron Solberg via EV
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2024 5:58 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Ron Solberg 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

t seems that since 2017, Tesla has gone into reverse on their original master 
plan.

So let China take the lead/heat for pushing out ICE cars. In five or ten years 
the ICE folks can adjust/catch up. No bailout needed. The pressure on Musk is 
reduced and Optimus can go to Mars and or drive Robotaxis, a win-win except for 
the carbon problem.

Ron Solberg

> On May 14, 2024, at 7:22 PM, EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
> 
> On 14 May 2024 at 10:35, Rush via EV wrote:
> 
>> I think that anybody having any knowledge of how a business is 
>> conducted would say that 'yes, profit is a good thing'.
> 
> Let's restore the context:
> 
>> AND still make a hefty profit on each car
> 
> As I understood it, and someone correct me if this is wrong, the 
> original Tesla "master plan" was to get to mass market EVs.  They'd 
> start with building luxury EVs for rich people, and use the presumably 
> *hefty* profits from that venture to design and build EVs for the rest of us.
> 
> That plan was written a long time ago - maybe 2008?  Again, someone 
> please help me out here.
> 
> The Model 3 was introduced 7 years ago, in 2017.  That was real 
> progress toward affordable EVs, 9 years on from the master plan's 
> inception.  Not bad.
> 
> Is that master plan still their guide?  If so, what progress have they 
> made on it since?
> 
> Not the Model Y (2020).  It's more expensive.
> 
> I'm pretty sure it's not the Cybertruck (2023), either.
> 
> It seems that since 2017, Tesla has gone into reverse on their 
> original master plan.
> 
> Their recent investor call suggested pretty strongly that they're 
> going to start using their EV profits less to develop EVs, and more to 
> develop AI, autonomy software, and robotaxis.
> 
> Their recent layoffs seem to confirm that direction.
> 
> What do you think of this?
> 
> Is it a good thing?
> 
> Is it likely to be permanent, or is it just another Elon Musk 
> shot-from-the- hip that he'll change next month or next year?
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> If economists wished to study the horse, they wouldn't go and look at 
> horses. They'd sit in their studies and say to themselves, "What would 
> I do if I were a horse?"
> 
>  -- Ely 
> Devons
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
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> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
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Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[Peri Hartman via EV]

From the recent announcements, it does seem that Tesla has abandoned 
their original goals. I'll guess musk wants to put his attention where 
everyone else is failing: FSD. He could continue with producing cheap 
cars and probably succeed. But it wouldn't be as exciting and 
disrupting. And, well, you know what motivates musk.


I don't think anyone publicly knows how far advanced (or not) FSD is. 
The payoff would be unimaginable. If he's going to bet the company on 
it, maybe they're close ? But what do i know ?


Peri


-- Original Message --
From "EV List Lackey via EV" 
To "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc "EV List Lackey" 
Date 5/15/2024 2:22:13 AM
Subject Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.


On 14 May 2024 at 10:35, Rush via EV wrote:


 I think that anybody having any knowledge of how a business is conducted
 would say that 'yes, profit is a good thing'.


Let's restore the context:


 AND still make a hefty profit on each car


As I understood it, and someone correct me if this is wrong, the original
Tesla "master plan" was to get to mass market EVs.  They'd start with
building luxury EVs for rich people, and use the presumably *hefty* profits
from that venture to design and build EVs for the rest of us.

That plan was written a long time ago - maybe 2008?  Again, someone please
help me out here.

The Model 3 was introduced 7 years ago, in 2017.  That was real progress
toward affordable EVs, 9 years on from the master plan's inception.  Not
bad.

Is that master plan still their guide?  If so, what progress have they made
on it since?

Not the Model Y (2020).  It's more expensive.

I'm pretty sure it's not the Cybertruck (2023), either.

It seems that since 2017, Tesla has gone into reverse on their original
master plan.

Their recent investor call suggested pretty strongly that they're going to
start using their EV profits less to develop EVs, and more to develop AI,
autonomy software, and robotaxis.

Their recent layoffs seem to confirm that direction.

What do you think of this?

Is it a good thing?

Is it likely to be permanent, or is it just another Elon Musk shot-from-the-
hip that he'll change next month or next year?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

 If economists wished to study the horse, they wouldn't go and look at
 horses. They'd sit in their studies and say to themselves, "What would
 I do if I were a horse?"

  -- Ely Devons

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[Ron Solberg via EV]

t seems that since 2017, Tesla has gone into reverse on their original 
master plan.

So let China take the lead/heat for pushing out ICE cars. In five or ten years 
the ICE folks can adjust/catch up. No bailout needed. The pressure on Musk is 
reduced and Optimus can go to Mars and or drive Robotaxis, a win-win except for 
the carbon problem.

Ron Solberg

> On May 14, 2024, at 7:22 PM, EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
> 
> On 14 May 2024 at 10:35, Rush via EV wrote:
> 
>> I think that anybody having any knowledge of how a business is conducted
>> would say that 'yes, profit is a good thing'.
> 
> Let's restore the context:
> 
>> AND still make a hefty profit on each car
> 
> As I understood it, and someone correct me if this is wrong, the original 
> Tesla "master plan" was to get to mass market EVs.  They'd start with 
> building luxury EVs for rich people, and use the presumably *hefty* profits 
> from that venture to design and build EVs for the rest of us.
> 
> That plan was written a long time ago - maybe 2008?  Again, someone please 
> help me out here.
> 
> The Model 3 was introduced 7 years ago, in 2017.  That was real progress 
> toward affordable EVs, 9 years on from the master plan's inception.  Not 
> bad.
> 
> Is that master plan still their guide?  If so, what progress have they made 
> on it since?
> 
> Not the Model Y (2020).  It's more expensive.
> 
> I'm pretty sure it's not the Cybertruck (2023), either.
> 
> It seems that since 2017, Tesla has gone into reverse on their original 
> master plan.
> 
> Their recent investor call suggested pretty strongly that they're going to 
> start using their EV profits less to develop EVs, and more to develop AI, 
> autonomy software, and robotaxis.
> 
> Their recent layoffs seem to confirm that direction.
> 
> What do you think of this?
> 
> Is it a good thing?
> 
> Is it likely to be permanent, or is it just another Elon Musk shot-from-the-
> hip that he'll change next month or next year?
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> 
> If economists wished to study the horse, they wouldn't go and look at 
> horses. They'd sit in their studies and say to themselves, "What would 
> I do if I were a horse?"
> 
>  -- Ely Devons
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> 
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[Danny Ames via EV]

 I believe it's a good thing. The master plan is sustainable transportation. 
Elon's statement going balls to the wall for autonomy is a 10 billion dollar AI 
investment in DOJO a kind of cyber training ground for FSD full self driving 
and eventually optimus (a humanoid robot to replace human labor) capturing 
massive video edge cases to process will make it possible to safely utilize the 
onboard inference ADAS advanced driver assistance system computer in a Tesla as 
almost all are now FSD equipped cars that mostly sits around doing nothing most 
of the time to become available most of the time. This would utilize the 
existing fleet thus reducing the need to manufacture as many cars if you can 
wake up the fleet into robotaxies. This would drastically reduce transportation 
cost. Material needs on and on.  Time will tell...Danny Ames   
On Tuesday, May 14, 2024 at 05:23:03 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 14 May 2024 at 10:35, Rush via EV wrote:

> I think that anybody having any knowledge of how a business is conducted
> would say that 'yes, profit is a good thing'.

Let's restore the context:

> AND still make a hefty profit on each car 

As I understood it, and someone correct me if this is wrong, the original 
Tesla "master plan" was to get to mass market EVs.  They'd start with 
building luxury EVs for rich people, and use the presumably *hefty* profits 
from that venture to design and build EVs for the rest of us.

That plan was written a long time ago - maybe 2008?  Again, someone please 
help me out here.

The Model 3 was introduced 7 years ago, in 2017.  That was real progress 
toward affordable EVs, 9 years on from the master plan's inception.  Not 
bad.

Is that master plan still their guide?  If so, what progress have they made 
on it since?

Not the Model Y (2020).  It's more expensive.

I'm pretty sure it's not the Cybertruck (2023), either.

It seems that since 2017, Tesla has gone into reverse on their original 
master plan.

Their recent investor call suggested pretty strongly that they're going to 
start using their EV profits less to develop EVs, and more to develop AI, 
autonomy software, and robotaxis.

Their recent layoffs seem to confirm that direction.

What do you think of this?

Is it a good thing?

Is it likely to be permanent, or is it just another Elon Musk shot-from-the-
hip that he'll change next month or next year?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    If economists wished to study the horse, they wouldn't go and look at 
    horses. They'd sit in their studies and say to themselves, "What would 
    I do if I were a horse?"

                                                              -- Ely Devons

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 14 May 2024 at 10:35, Rush via EV wrote:

> I think that anybody having any knowledge of how a business is conducted
> would say that 'yes, profit is a good thing'.

Let's restore the context:

> AND still make a hefty profit on each car 

As I understood it, and someone correct me if this is wrong, the original 
Tesla "master plan" was to get to mass market EVs.  They'd start with 
building luxury EVs for rich people, and use the presumably *hefty* profits 
from that venture to design and build EVs for the rest of us.

That plan was written a long time ago - maybe 2008?  Again, someone please 
help me out here.

The Model 3 was introduced 7 years ago, in 2017.  That was real progress 
toward affordable EVs, 9 years on from the master plan's inception.  Not 
bad.

Is that master plan still their guide?  If so, what progress have they made 
on it since?

Not the Model Y (2020).  It's more expensive.

I'm pretty sure it's not the Cybertruck (2023), either.

It seems that since 2017, Tesla has gone into reverse on their original 
master plan.

Their recent investor call suggested pretty strongly that they're going to 
start using their EV profits less to develop EVs, and more to develop AI, 
autonomy software, and robotaxis.

Their recent layoffs seem to confirm that direction.

What do you think of this?

Is it a good thing?

Is it likely to be permanent, or is it just another Elon Musk shot-from-the-
hip that he'll change next month or next year?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 If economists wished to study the horse, they wouldn't go and look at 
 horses. They'd sit in their studies and say to themselves, "What would 
 I do if I were a horse?"

  -- Ely Devons

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[Rush via EV]

EV List Lackey 
Wrote -

> You say that like it's a good thing.  Is it?  Why or why not?

Odd question in my opinion, sounds like either David really wants an answer
and has no idea if profit is necessary for a business, or he is just
baiting.

I think that anybody having any knowledge of how a business is conducted
would say that 'yes, profit is a good thing'.

Best,
Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV




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Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[jim--- via EV]

On 14 May 2024 at 7:18, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

>> AND still make a hefty profit on each car 

Then David Roden asked:
> You say that like it's a good thing.  Is it?  Why or why not?

Of course it is.  Every company out there is in business to make money.  Making 
a profit on your sales is the normal way of making money.  Making money is 
required in order to continue the company.

73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org


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Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 14 May 2024 at 7:18, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

> AND still make a hefty profit on each car 

You say that like it's a good thing.  Is it?  Why or why not?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 This raises a number of questions, such as "what's actually wrong 
 with people?," and "is this legal in Spain?"

   -- Found on the net
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Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 5/14/2024 6:17 AM, Kevin Horton wrote:
Tesla's inventory at the end of the 1st quarter in 2024 was 28 days of 
supply.  While that is much less than the inventory at other OEMs, it is 
a big increase over their typical 15 to 16 days of inventory.


Yup, and the generally manage it by dropping prices, AND still make a 
hefty profit on each car. (unlike all the Legacy makers)



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Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[Kevin Horton via EV]

> On May 13, 2024, at 23:57, John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
> 
> On 5/13/2024 8:25 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
>>> Tesla still seems to be selling all they can make.
>> Are you sure about that?
>> https://jalopnik.com/tesla-is-running-out-of-room-to-store-unsold-cars-
>> 1851473377
> 
> Note what I said of "Days of Inventory".  The Legacy makers have LOTS of 
> space to store cars.  It's called their Dealership network - and they get to 
> count the cars as sold when they deliver them to the dealers.
> 
> Tesla doesn't have thousands of parking lots available for storage.
> Go look it up.
> This one doesn't include Tesla, but the last time I saw one with Tesla, they 
> were the far left column.
> 
> https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/new-vehicle-inventory-january-2024/


Tesla's inventory at the end of the 1st quarter in 2024 was 28 days of supply.  
While that is much less than the inventory at other OEMs, it is a big increase 
over their typical 15 to 16 days of inventory.

https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/IR/TSLA-Q1-2024-Update.pdf
TSLA-Q1-2024-Update
PDF Document · 7.5 MB

Kevin Horton


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Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 5/13/2024 8:25 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

Tesla still seems to be selling all they can make.


Are you sure about that?

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-is-running-out-of-room-to-store-unsold-cars-
1851473377


Note what I said of "Days of Inventory".  The Legacy makers have LOTS of 
space to store cars.  It's called their Dealership network - and they 
get to count the cars as sold when they deliver them to the dealers.


Tesla doesn't have thousands of parking lots available for storage.
Go look it up.
This one doesn't include Tesla, but the last time I saw one with Tesla, 
they were the far left column.


https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/new-vehicle-inventory-january-2024/

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Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 13 May 2024 at 17:55, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

> Note the total quantities of the EV's sold by all the other
> manufacturers.  Each of them is TINY relative to Tesla. 

That's certainly true in the US.  

In Europe, Volkswagen Group is currently #1 in EV sales.  Tesla sells a lot 
of Model Ys, but not as many 3s, and almost zero Models S and X.  

VW doesn't have any single model that comes close to the Y in sales.  
However, it has more different EV models, under more brands, with a more 
diverse appeal and a wider price range.  Thus, at the moment it beats Tesla 
in the aggregate.  

EVs in EU, first quarter 2024

VW Group 18% market share
Tesla 15%
Stellantis 12.5%

> BYD is doing pretty good in China. 

I don't have the numbers at hand, but IIRC, in China, BYD has lately been 
outselling Tesla between 3:1 and 4:1.  Home team and all, I guess, and also 
lower prices.

> Tesla still seems to be selling all they can make. 

Are you sure about that?

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-is-running-out-of-room-to-store-unsold-cars-
1851473377

or https://v.gd/tt5798

Maybe they expect that their recent further price cuts will lead to a quick 
sellout of the excess inventory.  Just a guess.

-

Sidebar: A couple of weeks later, Tesla appears to be again changing their 
position on their charging business.  

https://fortune.com/2024/05/13/tesla-supercharger-workers-rehired-elon-musk-
layoff-entire-team-max-dezegher/

or https://v.gd/VwZKOP

I wonder how much of a raise De Zegher negotiated.   :-\

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 There is a war between the rich and poor,
 A war between the man and the woman.
 There is a war between the left and right,
 A war between the black and white,
 A war between the odd and the even.
 There is a war between the ones who say there is a war
 And the ones who say there isn't.
 Why don't you come on back to the war, pick up your tiny burden.
 Why don't you come on back to the war, let's all get even.
 
-- Leonard Cohen
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Re: [EVDL] 46 Pure EVs for sale, Teslas competition.

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 5/13/2024 4:25 PM, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

Hi Folks
There’s quite a few manufactures selling EVs now as noted in the Consumer 
Reports New Car Reviews April 2024 issue 46 now.   Some manufacturers have 
multiple EVs for sale like Volvo, Kia, Hyundai, Ford etc.
Last month Elon was complaining about reduced sales - blaming everything else 
besides ye old competition (probably for political reasons).


Note the total quantities of the EV's sold by all the other 
manufacturers.  Each of them is TINY relative to Tesla.  (GM's EV sales 
have been going down steadily.)
Note that I'm mostly talking about non-China sales, as BYD is doing 
pretty good in China.


Yes, sales a down a bit - but Tesla still seems to be selling all they 
can make.  Part of the reduced sales in the last quarter were due to 
factory down time, and parts delays due to the shipping mess near Israel.


One thing to look at is the "Days of Supply" for all the car makers. 
Most of the legacy brands have been dumping stock at their dealerships - 
since that counts as a "sale".


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