Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

[EV List Lackey via EV]

> On 2/8/2022 10:21 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:
> > It is not the government's job to regulate an optional feature on
> > any vehicle.

On 9 Feb 2022 at 22:39, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

> It most certainly is! Especially if it could be potentially dangerous.
> 

Yeah, that's kind of the entire principle behind NHTSA.

You younguns don't remember the days when vehicle safety requirements were  
4-wheel brakes, windshield wipers, headlights, and turn signals. The rest of 
it was telling drivers, "Now drive slower and don't get in a wreck, OK?"

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 If you aren't sure whether you can do this, just try it. 
 The worst thing that can happen is that your computer could 
 explode.  
 
-- GIMP Documentation 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org

Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

[Alan Arrison via EV]

It most certainly is! Especially if it could be potentially dangerous.



On 2/8/2022 10:21 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:

It is not the government's job to regulate an optional feature on
any vehicle.

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org

Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

[paul dove via EV]

Still, not a software issue.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, February 8, 2022, 2:06 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:

That doesn't ensure you are attentive. It only ensures you have your 
hands on the wheel. I think everyone knows the difference.

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "Peri 
Hartman" 
Sent: 08-Feb-22 12:00:55
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

>When Autosteer is in use, it measures the amount of torque that you 
>apply to the steering wheel and, if insufficient torque is applied, an 
>escalating series of audible and visual alerts again reminds you to 
>place your hands on the wheel. This helps ensure you are attentive and 
>trains good driving habits. If you repeatedly ignore these warnings, 
>then you will be locked out from using Autopilot for the duration of 
>that trip.
>
>FSD has other features that use autopilot such as navigate but it still 
>has the above functions.
>
>https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot
>
>
>
>On Tuesday, February 8, 2022, 09:08:07 AM CST, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
>
>
>Technically, you're right, Paul. That is the primary point I made a
>while back and then asked the question: how long would it take for you
>to respond if the FSD drops out ? Someone mentioned that, at least, if
>gives an audible warning, so I'm assuming that "dropping out" is easy 
>to
>notice. But someone else pointed out that if nothing goes wrong for a
>long time, it's hard or impossible to keep a high level of alertness. 
>In
>other words, you need stimulation to keep alert.
>
>So, even if Tesla says you must be instantly ready to regain control, 
>is
>that a realistic position ? I think I have solidly convinced myself 
>that
>it is not realistic. Tesla absolutely must modify FSD in some way to
>ensure the driver is alert. I'm not sure how that might work, but here
>are a few simple (and possibly stupid) ideas.
>
>- vibrate the steering wheel from time to time
>- intentionally veer out of the lane from time to time (only while 
>safe)
>- intentionally have FSD drop out from time to time and require a 
>simple
>action to reengage
>- show a blank screen on the console (maybe this would be more
>distracting than helpful)
>
>-
>
>Another point I want to bring up. There's been discussion about having
>redundant systems. While that's a good idea, I don't think it addresses
>the problem at hand. FSD didn't mechanically or electrically fail. The
>software failed. Having software that goes into "I give up" mode is not
>acceptable.
>
>The software needs to try to make the best decision it can. Always. If
>they have redundant systems and one system "gives up," even with
>software trained by different data and produced by different 
>development
>teams, you don't really have good redundancy. If both try rather than
>give up, then, at least, you have two solutions at every moment to
>compare.
>
>Peri
>
><< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "paul dove via EV" 
>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>Cc: "paul dove" 
>Sent: 08-Feb-22 05:10:41
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data
>
> >When and where did Tesla say you can let the car drive and play with 
>your radio?
> >They say stay alert and keep your hands on the wheel. Sorry it is 
>still people who don’t obey that is the issue here.
> >
> >
> >Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> >On Tuesday, February 8, 2022, 5:22 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> >All these stories remind me of the one where there was a road with a
> >sharp left turn.  One foggy night, some kid ran the yellow line at the
> >apex of the "L" straight up the proverbial oak tree.  In the morning,
> >he came back and found he got a car.  Someone was following the yellow
> >line right up and into that tree.
> >
> >That story has me thinking that Tesla, Waymo, etc. are needing to pass
> >a Pankster Obstacle Situation (POS) test in order to be certified as
> >anywhere near Level 5.
> >
> >At a T-intersection, Tesla missed a Stop sign??  Why did it not
> >recognize that it was at a Stop signable intersection and come to a
> >complete (okay "the coast is clear" rolling) stop?  What would happen
> >if a drunk took out the sign the day before and it had not been
> >replaced?  What happens if a kid places a garbage bag over the stop
> >si

Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

[nathan christiansn via EV]

Here is my take on Tesla FSD Beta:

It is your decision to use buy/use FSD Beta. I don't know why anyone would
pay $12,000 to be a beta tester, but I guess some people will.

When you choose to use this feature, you are assuming all risks associated
with it. Yes, it is not perfect, but that is implied in the name "FSD
*BETA.*" It is not the government's job to regulate an optional feature on
any vehicle.

Another thing to consider is number of lives that FSD Beta has saved. Yes,
there have been some cases where the software has caused an accident, but
there are many other instances in which the software has avoided a
potentially fatal crash. Is FSD Beta better than a teenager distracted by
his/her phone? In most scenarios, I would say yes (although I do not have
any personal experience with FSD Beta).

Eventually, FSD Beta will get to a point where it is as good or better than
a human driver. Until then, users of FSD Beta need to be paying attention
to the road at all times while using the feature.
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org

Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 8 Feb 2022 at 15:07, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> Tesla absolutely must modify FSD in some way to ensure the driver
> is alert. I'm not sure how that might work

They could start by not creating unrealistic expectations - that is, by 
calling it something other than "full self driving." 

I don't see how the FTC isn't on them about this.  FSD is clearly false 
advertising.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 A successful tool is one that was used to do something 
 undreamed of by its author.
 -- SC Johnson
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org

Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 8 Feb 2022 at 20:00, paul dove via EV wrote:

> Autosteer ... reminds you to place your hands on the wheel. 

If you look online, you'll find that Tesla owners don't appreciate those 
warnings and look for ways to defeat them.  

One example:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/glitch-allows-nag-to-be-turned-
off.210589/

Elon Musk promised Tesla owners "full self driving" - that their cars would 
drive themselves.  Some of those owers, to their credit, understand that 
that's just Musk boasting, that it's not really happening, and may never 
happen.  That's probably true of most Tesla owners on this list.  

But what about the other owners who aren't as understanding?  Will they 
settle for "full self driving" that isn't?

And how long will NHTSA sit by and allow this to continue?

I have no idea where Tesla goes from here, but I'm sure glad that I'm not 
one of their attorneys.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 Believe it or not, there are physical structures called stores 
 designed for in-person shopping. Most have signs outside, adver-
 tising what they sell. Grocery stores sell food; clothing stores 
 sell clothing. Home Depot sells homes and depots, Trader Joe's 
 sells sloppy joes, and Target sells everything but what you wanted.

-- Janet Periat
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org

Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

[paul dove via EV]

 When Autosteer is in use, it measures the amount of torque that you apply to 
the steering wheel and, if insufficient torque is applied, an escalating series 
of audible and visual alerts again reminds you to place your hands on the 
wheel. This helps ensure you are attentive and trains good driving habits. If 
you repeatedly ignore these warnings, then you will be locked out from using 
Autopilot for the duration of that trip.
FSD has other features that use autopilot such as navigate but it still has the 
above functions.
https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot


On Tuesday, February 8, 2022, 09:08:07 AM CST, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Technically, you're right, Paul. That is the primary point I made a 
while back and then asked the question: how long would it take for you 
to respond if the FSD drops out ? Someone mentioned that, at least, if 
gives an audible warning, so I'm assuming that "dropping out" is easy to 
notice. But someone else pointed out that if nothing goes wrong for a 
long time, it's hard or impossible to keep a high level of alertness. In 
other words, you need stimulation to keep alert.

So, even if Tesla says you must be instantly ready to regain control, is 
that a realistic position ? I think I have solidly convinced myself that 
it is not realistic. Tesla absolutely must modify FSD in some way to 
ensure the driver is alert. I'm not sure how that might work, but here 
are a few simple (and possibly stupid) ideas.

- vibrate the steering wheel from time to time
- intentionally veer out of the lane from time to time (only while safe)
- intentionally have FSD drop out from time to time and require a simple 
action to reengage
- show a blank screen on the console (maybe this would be more 
distracting than helpful)

-

Another point I want to bring up. There's been discussion about having 
redundant systems. While that's a good idea, I don't think it addresses 
the problem at hand. FSD didn't mechanically or electrically fail. The 
software failed. Having software that goes into "I give up" mode is not 
acceptable.

The software needs to try to make the best decision it can. Always. If 
they have redundant systems and one system "gives up," even with 
software trained by different data and produced by different development 
teams, you don't really have good redundancy. If both try rather than 
give up, then, at least, you have two solutions at every moment to 
compare.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "paul dove" 
Sent: 08-Feb-22 05:10:41
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

>When and where did Tesla say you can let the car drive and play with your 
>radio?
>They say stay alert and keep your hands on the wheel. Sorry it is still people 
>who don’t obey that is the issue here.
>
>
>Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Tuesday, February 8, 2022, 5:22 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV 
> wrote:
>
>All these stories remind me of the one where there was a road with a
>sharp left turn.  One foggy night, some kid ran the yellow line at the
>apex of the "L" straight up the proverbial oak tree.  In the morning,
>he came back and found he got a car.  Someone was following the yellow
>line right up and into that tree.
>
>That story has me thinking that Tesla, Waymo, etc. are needing to pass
>a Pankster Obstacle Situation (POS) test in order to be certified as
>anywhere near Level 5.
>
>At a T-intersection, Tesla missed a Stop sign??  Why did it not
>recognize that it was at a Stop signable intersection and come to a
>complete (okay "the coast is clear" rolling) stop?  What would happen
>if a drunk took out the sign the day before and it had not been
>replaced?  What happens if a kid places a garbage bag over the stop
>sign in an impromptu POS test?
>
>In an interview between Sandy Munro and Elon Musk, Musk was saying
>that road line painting was not standardized and Tesla was having a
>hard time navigating through road construction areas.  Here you have
>an area where people are working and are expecting to go home at
>shift's end instead of to a hospital or morgue.  Okayyy, Tesla is
>working on it.
>
>Last night, I put my Tesla Model Y into Autopilot a little before a
>construction area.  It was a slow drizzle/rainy night.  Autopilot lost
>it and I had to take control.  I'm grateful that no one was beside me
>and it didn't go the other direction and into a Jersey Barrier.
>Autopilot had grabbed the "wrong lines"?
>
>The more questions I ask of FSD and its kin, the more I am convinced
>that the sensors should be beefing up the driver's skills and alerting
>them to possible bad situations in

Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

[Peri Hartman via EV]

That doesn't ensure you are attentive. It only ensures you have your 
hands on the wheel. I think everyone knows the difference.


<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "Peri 
Hartman" 

Sent: 08-Feb-22 12:00:55
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

When Autosteer is in use, it measures the amount of torque that you 
apply to the steering wheel and, if insufficient torque is applied, an 
escalating series of audible and visual alerts again reminds you to 
place your hands on the wheel. This helps ensure you are attentive and 
trains good driving habits. If you repeatedly ignore these warnings, 
then you will be locked out from using Autopilot for the duration of 
that trip.


FSD has other features that use autopilot such as navigate but it still 
has the above functions.


https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot



On Tuesday, February 8, 2022, 09:08:07 AM CST, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:



Technically, you're right, Paul. That is the primary point I made a
while back and then asked the question: how long would it take for you
to respond if the FSD drops out ? Someone mentioned that, at least, if
gives an audible warning, so I'm assuming that "dropping out" is easy 
to

notice. But someone else pointed out that if nothing goes wrong for a
long time, it's hard or impossible to keep a high level of alertness. 
In

other words, you need stimulation to keep alert.

So, even if Tesla says you must be instantly ready to regain control, 
is
that a realistic position ? I think I have solidly convinced myself 
that

it is not realistic. Tesla absolutely must modify FSD in some way to
ensure the driver is alert. I'm not sure how that might work, but here
are a few simple (and possibly stupid) ideas.

- vibrate the steering wheel from time to time
- intentionally veer out of the lane from time to time (only while 
safe)
- intentionally have FSD drop out from time to time and require a 
simple

action to reengage
- show a blank screen on the console (maybe this would be more
distracting than helpful)

-

Another point I want to bring up. There's been discussion about having
redundant systems. While that's a good idea, I don't think it addresses
the problem at hand. FSD didn't mechanically or electrically fail. The
software failed. Having software that goes into "I give up" mode is not
acceptable.

The software needs to try to make the best decision it can. Always. If
they have redundant systems and one system "gives up," even with
software trained by different data and produced by different 
development

teams, you don't really have good redundancy. If both try rather than
give up, then, at least, you have two solutions at every moment to
compare.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "paul dove" 
Sent: 08-Feb-22 05:10:41
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

>When and where did Tesla say you can let the car drive and play with 
your radio?
>They say stay alert and keep your hands on the wheel. Sorry it is 
still people who don’t obey that is the issue here.

>
>
>Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Tuesday, February 8, 2022, 5:22 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV 
 wrote:

>
>All these stories remind me of the one where there was a road with a
>sharp left turn.  One foggy night, some kid ran the yellow line at the
>apex of the "L" straight up the proverbial oak tree.  In the morning,
>he came back and found he got a car.  Someone was following the yellow
>line right up and into that tree.
>
>That story has me thinking that Tesla, Waymo, etc. are needing to pass
>a Pankster Obstacle Situation (POS) test in order to be certified as
>anywhere near Level 5.
>
>At a T-intersection, Tesla missed a Stop sign??  Why did it not
>recognize that it was at a Stop signable intersection and come to a
>complete (okay "the coast is clear" rolling) stop?  What would happen
>if a drunk took out the sign the day before and it had not been
>replaced?  What happens if a kid places a garbage bag over the stop
>sign in an impromptu POS test?
>
>In an interview between Sandy Munro and Elon Musk, Musk was saying
>that road line painting was not standardized and Tesla was having a
>hard time navigating through road construction areas.  Here you have
>an area where people are working and are expecting to go home at
>shift's end instead of to a hospital or morgue.  Okayyy, Tesla is
>working on it.
>
>Last night, I put my Tesla Model Y into Autopilot a little before a
>construction area.  It was a slow drizzle/rainy night.  Autopilot 

Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 8 Feb 2022 at 15:07, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> Tesla absolutely must modify FSD in some way to ensure the driver
> is alert. I'm not sure how that might work ...

I agree.  They might start by not creating unrealistic expectations.  For 
example, they could call it something other than "full self driving."  
Maybe, oh, I dunno, "driving assistance"?  "Lane-holding assistance"?

I don't see how the FTC hasn't called Tesla on FSD.  It smells to me like 
false advertising.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 The telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat.  You pull 
 his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles.  
 Radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, 
 they receive them there.  The only difference is that there 
 is no cat.

  -- Albert Einstein
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org

Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 8 Feb 2022 at 13:10, paul dove via EV wrote:

> When and where did Tesla say you can let the car drive and play with your
> radio?  They say stay alert and keep your hands on the wheel. Sorry it is
> still people who donTMt obey that is the issue here.

Seriously?  You expect them to obey that warning?  Why?

Tesla calls it "full self driving."

What part of "full self driving" do you think means "Your Tesla can't 
*really* drive itself, so pay full attention at all times"?

The problem is that Tesla talks out of two orifices.  

The northernmost orifice has legal sense and tries to make "full self 
driving" mean "not full self driving, pay attention."  This is effectively 
impossible.

The southernmost orifice twitters, "Hey gang, full self driving is here and 
it's GREAT!  Give me $10k and you can try it out.  Oh by the way, it's just 
a beta that you're paying me to test, but trust me, IT'S REALLY GREAT!"

When the average guy of average education and perception pays between $50k 
and over $100k for a car, which one of the above messages do you think he 
wants to believe?

That's why Youtube is full of idiots showing themselves doing precisely what 
Elon Musk encourages them to do - letting a Tesla drive itself.  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.  

 -- Edward R Murrow 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org

Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Technically, you're right, Paul. That is the primary point I made a 
while back and then asked the question: how long would it take for you 
to respond if the FSD drops out ? Someone mentioned that, at least, if 
gives an audible warning, so I'm assuming that "dropping out" is easy to 
notice. But someone else pointed out that if nothing goes wrong for a 
long time, it's hard or impossible to keep a high level of alertness. In 
other words, you need stimulation to keep alert.


So, even if Tesla says you must be instantly ready to regain control, is 
that a realistic position ? I think I have solidly convinced myself that 
it is not realistic. Tesla absolutely must modify FSD in some way to 
ensure the driver is alert. I'm not sure how that might work, but here 
are a few simple (and possibly stupid) ideas.


- vibrate the steering wheel from time to time
- intentionally veer out of the lane from time to time (only while safe)
- intentionally have FSD drop out from time to time and require a simple 
action to reengage
- show a blank screen on the console (maybe this would be more 
distracting than helpful)


-

Another point I want to bring up. There's been discussion about having 
redundant systems. While that's a good idea, I don't think it addresses 
the problem at hand. FSD didn't mechanically or electrically fail. The 
software failed. Having software that goes into "I give up" mode is not 
acceptable.


The software needs to try to make the best decision it can. Always. If 
they have redundant systems and one system "gives up," even with 
software trained by different data and produced by different development 
teams, you don't really have good redundancy. If both try rather than 
give up, then, at least, you have two solutions at every moment to 
compare.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "paul dove" 
Sent: 08-Feb-22 05:10:41
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data


When and where did Tesla say you can let the car drive and play with your radio?
They say stay alert and keep your hands on the wheel. Sorry it is still people 
who don’t obey that is the issue here.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, February 8, 2022, 5:22 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV  
wrote:

All these stories remind me of the one where there was a road with a
sharp left turn.  One foggy night, some kid ran the yellow line at the
apex of the "L" straight up the proverbial oak tree.  In the morning,
he came back and found he got a car.  Someone was following the yellow
line right up and into that tree.

That story has me thinking that Tesla, Waymo, etc. are needing to pass
a Pankster Obstacle Situation (POS) test in order to be certified as
anywhere near Level 5.

At a T-intersection, Tesla missed a Stop sign??  Why did it not
recognize that it was at a Stop signable intersection and come to a
complete (okay "the coast is clear" rolling) stop?  What would happen
if a drunk took out the sign the day before and it had not been
replaced?  What happens if a kid places a garbage bag over the stop
sign in an impromptu POS test?

In an interview between Sandy Munro and Elon Musk, Musk was saying
that road line painting was not standardized and Tesla was having a
hard time navigating through road construction areas.  Here you have
an area where people are working and are expecting to go home at
shift's end instead of to a hospital or morgue.  Okayyy, Tesla is
working on it.

Last night, I put my Tesla Model Y into Autopilot a little before a
construction area.  It was a slow drizzle/rainy night.  Autopilot lost
it and I had to take control.  I'm grateful that no one was beside me
and it didn't go the other direction and into a Jersey Barrier.
Autopilot had grabbed the "wrong lines"?

The more questions I ask of FSD and its kin, the more I am convinced
that the sensors should be beefing up the driver's skills and alerting
them to possible bad situations instead of trying to play God with
your safety and mine.

I think we have to ask questions of any FSD system.  FSD is not an
airliner being able to fly autonomously between point A and B in a
well controlled airspace or SpaceX nailing a landing on a barge
somewhere out in the middle of the Atlantic.  We are dealing with
situations where people, cars, and environmental factors interact in a
myriad of ways every second of the day.  You don't have a kid kicking
a ball out onto a runaway or a commuter/pedestrian with "get
home-itis" in the middle of the Atlantic.  When was the last time a
deer crossed the path of a SpaceX rocket?

I think it is past time to rethink about obtaining Level 5 and
concentrate on beefing up driver awareness of potential problems and
letting the computer between our ears try and handle the

Re: [EVDL] Request Tesla crash data

[paul dove via EV]

When and where did Tesla say you can let the car drive and play with your 
radio? 
They say stay alert and keep your hands on the wheel. Sorry it is still people 
who don’t obey that is the issue here.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, February 8, 2022, 5:22 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV  
wrote:

All these stories remind me of the one where there was a road with a
sharp left turn.  One foggy night, some kid ran the yellow line at the
apex of the "L" straight up the proverbial oak tree.  In the morning,
he came back and found he got a car.  Someone was following the yellow
line right up and into that tree.

That story has me thinking that Tesla, Waymo, etc. are needing to pass
a Pankster Obstacle Situation (POS) test in order to be certified as
anywhere near Level 5.

At a T-intersection, Tesla missed a Stop sign??  Why did it not
recognize that it was at a Stop signable intersection and come to a
complete (okay "the coast is clear" rolling) stop?  What would happen
if a drunk took out the sign the day before and it had not been
replaced?  What happens if a kid places a garbage bag over the stop
sign in an impromptu POS test?

In an interview between Sandy Munro and Elon Musk, Musk was saying
that road line painting was not standardized and Tesla was having a
hard time navigating through road construction areas.  Here you have
an area where people are working and are expecting to go home at
shift's end instead of to a hospital or morgue.  Okayyy, Tesla is
working on it.

Last night, I put my Tesla Model Y into Autopilot a little before a
construction area.  It was a slow drizzle/rainy night.  Autopilot lost
it and I had to take control.  I'm grateful that no one was beside me
and it didn't go the other direction and into a Jersey Barrier.
Autopilot had grabbed the "wrong lines"?

The more questions I ask of FSD and its kin, the more I am convinced
that the sensors should be beefing up the driver's skills and alerting
them to possible bad situations instead of trying to play God with
your safety and mine.

I think we have to ask questions of any FSD system.  FSD is not an
airliner being able to fly autonomously between point A and B in a
well controlled airspace or SpaceX nailing a landing on a barge
somewhere out in the middle of the Atlantic.  We are dealing with
situations where people, cars, and environmental factors interact in a
myriad of ways every second of the day.  You don't have a kid kicking
a ball out onto a runaway or a commuter/pedestrian with "get
home-itis" in the middle of the Atlantic.  When was the last time a
deer crossed the path of a SpaceX rocket?

I think it is past time to rethink about obtaining Level 5 and
concentrate on beefing up driver awareness of potential problems and
letting the computer between our ears try and handle these situations.
We are far better in reading the intentions of other drivers and
pedestrians than any FSD package that may have a problem recognizing
and then displaying the silhouette of a pedestrian.

Peter Eckhoff

PS  I love my Model Y and I am not going to sell it.  She's like a
beloved girl friend with a few bad habits.
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org



-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/
LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org