Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-15 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List 
Well the bat cannot no because Mr. Bat didn't have humans and machine to invent 
neural nets to provide connectivity at high band width and at a low price? The 
more humans link into loops (potentially) the more the weaker willed will be 
absorbed to those with a "Triumph of the Will," and become effectual zombies. 
This may have occurred at least once before I have heard? 


-Original Message-
From: Bruno Marchal 
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Apr 14, 2021 6:22 am
Subject: Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)



On 11 Apr 2021, at 20:55, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
 wrote:
 
 That would be of some interest but I think it would fail to communicate what 
it is like to be a bat because of the inability to act as a bat.  I'm not sure 
your brain could learn to interpret visual input if it were not able to 
correlate it with touch and movement.

Added to this is the problem that we cannot know the mechanist substation 
level. Some would be OK to simulate only the bat neuronal system; some would 
say that we have to simulate also the glial cells, some would ask for the 
simulation of the microtubules, etc.
Even one bat cannot know how it feels to be a different bat.
Bruno




 
 Brent
 
 On 4/11/2021 11:06 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
  
 

Alternatively, let's do a thought experiment here, a pretend. Pretend that we 
are neuroscientists, and that we have lots  of research cash to spend? We have 
computer engineers at our disposal to design devices for us. So, we attach some 
sort of neural probes of highly advanced design, to bats, and a receiver of the 
signal to humans. The bats send and the humans receive, with the help of 
computer technology, transceivers, and all the rest. Thus, a human learns at 
least somewhat, what it's like to be bat. Sending the info from Human to a Bat 
would likely constitute torture, so let's not do that!
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Jason Resch 
 To: Everything List 
 Sent: Sat, Apr 10, 2021 11:27 am
 Subject: Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)
 

 
  On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 6:28 AM John Clark  wrote:
  
   On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 6:31 PM Jason Resch  wrote: 
   
> They {bats} could in some sense even feel the surfaces with such sonar: is 
> the surface smooth or rough, hard or soft, etc. Sound reflects differently 
> from different types of surfaces. 
 
  Yes. 
  
> Would they feel these surface differences as colors, 
 
  What you mean is, would they sense these surface differences as I SEE colors? 
  
> or would it feel more like tactile sensations? 
 
  What you mean is, would they sense these surface differences as I FEEL 
surfaces? The answer to both questions is a resounding NO. A particular bat 
senses surfaces not as you do but as a particular bat does. The only way Jason 
Resch Could ever know what it's like to be a particular bat would be for Jason 
Resch to turn into that bat, and even then he wouldn't know because then he 
wouldn't be Jason Resch anymore, he'd be a bat. And even a bat doesn't know 
what it's like to be another bat.  
   
  
  I agree generally with the idea that bat sonar sense could be completely 
alien to both our sight and our touch. 
  And while I can't know what it's like to be a bat anymore than a bat can know 
what it's like to be me, we can't rule out the existence of super-states of 
consciousness, perhaps possessed by Jupiter brains, which would be able to 
simultaneously hold in mind and compare different brain states, just as our 
vision can simultaneously look upon two faces and compare them. 
  If you could be this supermind then you might be able to know what it's like 
to be a bat and how that's different from being John. 
  Jason 
  
  


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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-15 Thread Bruno Marchal 

> On 14 Apr 2021, at 20:41, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/14/2021 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>>> On 11 Apr 2021, at 20:55, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> That would be of some interest but I think it would fail to communicate 
>>> what it is like to be a bat because of the inability to act as a bat.  I'm 
>>> not sure your brain could learn to interpret visual input if it were not 
>>> able to correlate it with touch and movement.
>> 
>> Added to this is the problem that we cannot know the mechanist substation 
>> level. Some would be OK to simulate only the bat neuronal system; some would 
>> say that we have to simulate also the glial cells, some would ask for the 
>> simulation of the microtubules, etc.
>> 
>> Even one bat cannot know how it feels to be a different bat.
> 
> I would agree if you mean "know with certainty”. 

You are right. I should have made clear, like I just did actually, that the 
notion of “knowing” was “knowing for sure”.

It is more []p & <>t & p than []p & p, although even " []p & <>t & p” might not 
yet capture completely the “for dure” components.


> But clearly we have pretty good ideas about how other people feel simply by 
> projecting our own feelings while imagining their situation.

OK.

Bruno


> 
> Brent
> 
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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-15 Thread Bruno Marchal 

> On 12 Apr 2021, at 22:11, spudboy100 via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Boys, boys! To better answer your questions we'd need to consult 
> neuroscientists


In this case, Louis Jouvet has given evidences that we can wake up with the 
memory of two separate independent consciousness stream. I have done this about 
4 times. Louis Jouvet explains this by the fact that the brain can be active 
(like in dreams) but with the corpus callosum still sleepy/inhibited. That 
helps to conceive that some arithmetical continuation can remember many streams.

The problem is that we don’t know who we are.



> who are involved with computing telemetry. So, who'd we consult with? 
> Probably the peeps that are working on Elon Musk's Neural Net thing. We may 
> never know how it feels to be one particular bat, out of billions, but we'd 
> have a sense of what Mr. Bat is doing, and how it feels to have the wind 
> beneath your wings, as that awful, old, song, went. If you wired me up you'd 
> be disgusted because, "What? He's got to go pee, again!”

If we remember an experience, it will remain hard to interpret it as being 
correct. We might be able to know what is like to be a bat, but we can never be 
sure that it is “correct”. We can know, but we cannot know-for-sure.

Bruno



> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: John Clark 
> To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
> Sent: Mon, Apr 12, 2021 3:25 pm
> Subject: Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)
> 
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:49 PM Jason Resch  <mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>  > How do you know there can't be quale of what it's like to be John just as 
> we {?} have a quale of a pixel of red in our {?} visual field
> 
> What's with this "we" business? I have a quale for what red is like in my 
> visual field but I have no idea what a red quale is like in your visual field.
> 
> > This is only an assumption of yours.
> 
> Speaking of assumptions, not only am I ignorant of what red is like for you I 
> don't even know if you have the ability to experience red quails or any 
> quails at all; I can assume you do but I don't know it for a fact nor will I 
> ever know it.
> 
> John K Clark
> 
> 
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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-15 Thread Bruno Marchal 

> On 12 Apr 2021, at 18:35, Jason Resch  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 10:35 AM John Clark  > wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:27 AM Jason Resch  > wrote:
> 
> > while I can't know what it's like to be a bat anymore than a bat can know 
> > what it's like to be me, we can't rule out the existence of super-states of 
> > consciousness, perhaps possessed by Jupiter brains, which would be able to 
> > simultaneously hold in mind and compare different brain states.
> 
> We are enormously more intelligent than an ant but we don't know what it's 
> like to be an ant, and for the same reason I don't see how a Jupiter Brain 
> could know what it's like to be one of us; and becoming more intelligent 
> won't help because that would just make it even more different from us. 
> 
> We are enormously more intelligent than an ant but our working memories can 
> hold on to how many facts at once? 5? 10?
> 
> An ant brain has hundreds of thousands of neurons and tens of millions of 
> connections.
> 
> So despite our intelligence, our minds are no where near capable of 
> understanding and comprehending all the structural interrelationships present 
> in an ant brain.
> 
> A super intelligence, on the other hand, could have the requisite memory and 
> processing to hold in it's mind a comprehension of another, much simpler 
> mind, as well as the plausible flexibility to reconfigure parts of it's own 
> mind to generate direct experiences and extract memories comprehensible to 
> the greater mind at large.


I agree that humans are more competent than ants, but I am not sure about its 
emotional-intelligence. 

But I agree with your conclusion. We can have do two dreams at once, and 
realise it after awakening, and we can’t exclude we might have arithmetical 
continuation capable of handling a finite or even an infinite number of streams.

The arithmetical reality is, among other things, an infinite processing 
machinery, after all. It is an open problem. 

Bruno



> 
> Jason
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John K Clark
> 
> 
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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-14 Thread 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 



On 4/14/2021 12:36 PM, Jason Resch wrote:



On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 1:41 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
> wrote:




On 4/14/2021 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:



On 11 Apr 2021, at 20:55, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

That would be of some interest but I think it would fail to
communicate what it is like to be a bat because of the inability
to act as a bat.  I'm not sure your brain could learn to
interpret visual input if it were not able to correlate it with
touch and movement.


Added to this is the problem that we cannot know the mechanist
substation level. Some would be OK to simulate only the bat
neuronal system; some would say that we have to simulate also the
glial cells, some would ask for the simulation of the
microtubules, etc.

Even one bat cannot know how it feels to be a different bat.


I would agree if you mean "know with certainty".  But clearly we
have pretty good ideas about how other people feel simply by
projecting our own feelings while imagining their situation.


I was surprised by this recent finding, that people who grow up in 
different cultures with different words (or lack of words) for 
different colors, actually appear to perceive colors differently. They 
take more time to pick up on color differences, for example:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgxyfqHRPoE 



I wonder why Evans hasn't tested his prediction that Russian speakers 
would be better at distinguishing shades of blue?  Surely there are 
plenty of Russian speakers available, even in England.


Brent

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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-14 Thread Jason Resch 
On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 1:41 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 4/14/2021 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 11 Apr 2021, at 20:55, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <
> everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> That would be of some interest but I think it would fail to communicate
> what it is like to be a bat because of the inability to act as a bat.  I'm
> not sure your brain could learn to interpret visual input if it were not
> able to correlate it with touch and movement.
>
>
> Added to this is the problem that we cannot know the mechanist substation
> level. Some would be OK to simulate only the bat neuronal system; some
> would say that we have to simulate also the glial cells, some would ask for
> the simulation of the microtubules, etc.
>
> Even one bat cannot know how it feels to be a different bat.
>
>
> I would agree if you mean "know with certainty".  But clearly we have
> pretty good ideas about how other people feel simply by projecting our own
> feelings while imagining their situation.
>

I was surprised by this recent finding, that people who grow up in
different cultures with different words (or lack of words) for different
colors, actually appear to perceive colors differently. They take more time
to pick up on color differences, for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgxyfqHRPoE

Jason

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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-14 Thread 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 



On 4/14/2021 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 11 Apr 2021, at 20:55, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
> wrote:


That would be of some interest but I think it would fail to 
communicate what it is like to be a bat because of the inability to 
act as a bat.  I'm not sure your brain could learn to interpret 
visual input if it were not able to correlate it with touch and movement.


Added to this is the problem that we cannot know the mechanist 
substation level. Some would be OK to simulate only the bat neuronal 
system; some would say that we have to simulate also the glial cells, 
some would ask for the simulation of the microtubules, etc.


Even one bat cannot know how it feels to be a different bat.


I would agree if you mean "know with certainty".  But clearly we have 
pretty good ideas about how other people feel simply by projecting our 
own feelings while imagining their situation.


Brent

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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-14 Thread Bruno Marchal 

> On 11 Apr 2021, at 20:55, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> That would be of some interest but I think it would fail to communicate what 
> it is like to be a bat because of the inability to act as a bat.  I'm not 
> sure your brain could learn to interpret visual input if it were not able to 
> correlate it with touch and movement.

Added to this is the problem that we cannot know the mechanist substation 
level. Some would be OK to simulate only the bat neuronal system; some would 
say that we have to simulate also the glial cells, some would ask for the 
simulation of the microtubules, etc.

Even one bat cannot know how it feels to be a different bat.

Bruno




> 
> Brent
> 
> On 4/11/2021 11:06 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
>> Alternatively, let's do a thought experiment here, a pretend. Pretend that 
>> we are neuroscientists, and that we have lots  of research cash to spend? We 
>> have computer engineers at our disposal to design devices for us. So, we 
>> attach some sort of neural probes of highly advanced design, to bats, and a 
>> receiver of the signal to humans. The bats send and the humans receive, with 
>> the help of computer technology, transceivers, and all the rest. Thus, a 
>> human learns at least somewhat, what it's like to be bat. Sending the info 
>> from Human to a Bat would likely constitute torture, so let's not do that!
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Jason Resch  <mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>
>> To: Everything List  
>> <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>
>> Sent: Sat, Apr 10, 2021 11:27 am
>> Subject: Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 6:28 AM John Clark > <mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 6:31 PM Jason Resch > <mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> > They {bats} could in some sense even feel the surfaces with such sonar: is 
>> > the surface smooth or rough, hard or soft, etc. Sound reflects differently 
>> > from different types of surfaces. 
>> 
>> Yes.
>> 
>> > Would they feel these surface differences as colors, 
>> 
>> What you mean is, would they sense these surface differences as I SEE colors?
>> 
>> > or would it feel more like tactile sensations? 
>> 
>> What you mean is, would they sense these surface differences as I FEEL 
>> surfaces? The answer to both questions is a resounding NO. A particular bat 
>> senses surfaces not as you do but as a particular bat does. The only way 
>> Jason Resch Could ever know what it's like to be a particular bat would be 
>> for Jason Resch to turn into that bat, and even then he wouldn't know 
>> because then he wouldn't be Jason Resch anymore, he'd be a bat. And even a 
>> bat doesn't know what it's like to be another bat.
>> 
>> 
>> I agree generally with the idea that bat sonar sense could be completely 
>> alien to both our sight and our touch.
>> 
>> And while I can't know what it's like to be a bat anymore than a bat can 
>> know what it's like to be me, we can't rule out the existence of 
>> super-states of consciousness, perhaps possessed by Jupiter brains, which 
>> would be able to simultaneously hold in mind and compare different brain 
>> states, just as our vision can simultaneously look upon two faces and 
>> compare them.
>> 
>> If you could be this supermind then you might be able to know what it's like 
>> to be a bat and how that's different from being John.
>> 
>> Jason
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> John K Clark
>> -- 
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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-12 Thread 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 



On 4/12/2021 11:17 AM, Jason Resch wrote:



On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 1:12 PM John Clark > wrote:


On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 12:35 PM Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote:

/> An ant brain has hundreds of thousands of neurons and tens
of millions of connections.So despite our intelligence, our
minds are no where near capable of understanding and
comprehending all the structural interrelationships present in
an ant brain./


True, but such detail is usually not necessary, and even today we
can make a pretty good prediction of the general sort of things an
ant will do in a given circumstance, such as when it encounters a
grain of sugar.

/> A super intelligence, on the other hand, could have the
requisite memory and processing to hold in it's mind a
comprehension of another, much simpler mind,/


Yes, if by "comprehension" you mean the ability to predict an
output (also known as behavior) of a mind for any given inputI
agree, assuming randomness does not play a part.  But predicting
how you will objectively behave it's not the same as knowing what
it would subjectively be like to be you. I think being you is
unique and analogies don't work in this case so being you is not
subjectively "like" anything except being you.



We have a vision sense that can know what it is like to see many 
different scenes.


Why then, could a Jupiter brain, not have an others-mind-sense that 
can know what it is like to be many different minds?


I think that's just a more speculative version of the "Mary the 
color-blind neuroscientist" puzzle.  In Mary's case we know she has a 
brain that could experience color, she just doesn't have the sensors and 
therefore not the experience.  Can she never the less understand the 
experience and know what it is like to see color?  I think it is 
possibly so.


Brent

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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-12 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List 
Boys, boys! To better answer your questions we'd need to consult 
neuroscientists who are involved with computing telemetry. So, who'd we consult 
with? Probably the peeps that are working on Elon Musk's Neural Net thing. We 
may never know how it feels to be one particular bat, out of billions, but we'd 
have a sense of what Mr. Bat is doing, and how it feels to have the wind 
beneath your wings, as that awful, old, song, went. If you wired me up you'd be 
disgusted because, "What? He's got to go pee, again!"


-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
Sent: Mon, Apr 12, 2021 3:25 pm
Subject: Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:49 PM Jason Resch  wrote:


 > How do you know there can't be quale of what it's like to be John just as we 
{?} have a quale of a pixel of red in our {?} visual field


What's with this "we" business? I have a quale for what red is like in my 
visual field but I have no idea what a red quale is like in your visual field.

> This is only an assumption of yours.

Speaking of assumptions, not only am I ignorant of what red is like for you I 
don't even know if you have the ability to experience red quails or any quails 
at all; I can assume you do but I don't know it for a fact nor will I ever know 
it.
John K Clark

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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-12 Thread John Clark 
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:49 PM Jason Resch  wrote:

 > *How do you know there can't be quale of what it's like to be John just
> as we *{?} *have a quale of a pixel of red in our *{?} *visual field*
>

What's with this "we" business? I have a quale for what red is like in my
visual field but I have no idea what a red quale is like in your visual
field.

*> This is only an assumption of yours.*


Speaking of assumptions, not only am I ignorant of what red is like for you
I don't even know if you have the ability to experience red quails or any
quails at all; I can assume you do but I don't know it for a fact nor will
I ever know it.

John K Clark

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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-12 Thread Jason Resch 
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 1:30 PM John Clark  wrote:

>
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:17 PM Jason Resch  wrote:
>
> *> We have a vision sense that can know what it is like to see many
>> different scenes. Why then, could a Jupiter brain, not have an
>> others-mind-sense that can know what it is like to be many different minds?*
>
>
> Because we have no sense that can detect subjectivity in anything except
> in ourselves. We could predict that if an ant encounter something very
> hot it will quickly withdraw from it, but we have no way of knowing if it
> experiences anything like pain. And it makes no difference how many
> different facts a Jupiter brain could keep in it's mine at the same time
> because it has no access to even one fact about the subjectivity of
> others, nor will it ever have one regardless of how smart it gets.
>

This is only an assumption of yours. How do you know there can't be quale
of what it's like to be John just as we have a quale of a pixel of red in
our visual field, and for a great enough mind to be able to survey a
landscape of such mind-qulia?

Jason



> John K Clark
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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-12 Thread John Clark 
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:17 PM Jason Resch  wrote:

*> We have a vision sense that can know what it is like to see many
> different scenes. Why then, could a Jupiter brain, not have an
> others-mind-sense that can know what it is like to be many different minds?*


Because we have no sense that can detect subjectivity in anything except in
ourselves. We could predict that if an ant encounter something very hot it
will quickly withdraw from it, but we have no way of knowing if it
experiences anything like pain. And it makes no difference how many
different facts a Jupiter brain could keep in it's mine at the same time
because it has no access to even one fact about the subjectivity of others,
nor will it ever have one regardless of how smart it gets.

John K Clark

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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-12 Thread Jason Resch 
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 1:12 PM John Clark  wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 12:35 PM Jason Resch  wrote:
>
> *> An ant brain has hundreds of thousands of neurons and tens of millions
>> of connections. So despite our intelligence, our minds are no where near
>> capable of understanding and comprehending all the structural
>> interrelationships present in an ant brain. *
>>
>
> True, but such detail is usually not necessary, and even today we can make
> a pretty good prediction of the general sort of things an ant will do in a
> given circumstance, such as when it encounters a grain of sugar.
>
> *> A super intelligence, on the other hand, could have the requisite
>> memory and processing to hold in it's mind a comprehension of another, much
>> simpler mind,*
>>
>
> Yes, if by "comprehension" you mean the ability to predict an output (also
> known as behavior) of a mind for any given input I agree, assuming
> randomness does not play a part.  But predicting how you will objectively
> behave it's not the same as knowing what it would subjectively be like to
> be you. I think being you is unique and analogies don't work in this case
> so being you is not subjectively "like" anything except being you.
>


We have a vision sense that can know what it is like to see many different
scenes.

Why then, could a Jupiter brain, not have an others-mind-sense that can
know what it is like to be many different minds?

Jason



> John K Clark
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> .
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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-12 Thread John Clark 
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 12:35 PM Jason Resch  wrote:

*> An ant brain has hundreds of thousands of neurons and tens of millions
> of connections. So despite our intelligence, our minds are no where near
> capable of understanding and comprehending all the structural
> interrelationships present in an ant brain. *
>

True, but such detail is usually not necessary, and even today we can make
a pretty good prediction of the general sort of things an ant will do in a
given circumstance, such as when it encounters a grain of sugar.

*> A super intelligence, on the other hand, could have the requisite memory
> and processing to hold in it's mind a comprehension of another, much
> simpler mind,*
>

Yes, if by "comprehension" you mean the ability to predict an output (also
known as behavior) of a mind for any given input I agree, assuming
randomness does not play a part.  But predicting how you will objectively
behave it's not the same as knowing what it would subjectively be like to
be you. I think being you is unique and analogies don't work in this case
so being you is not subjectively "like" anything except being you.

John K Clark

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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-12 Thread Jason Resch 
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 10:35 AM John Clark  wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:27 AM Jason Resch  wrote:
>
> > *while I can't know what it's like to be a bat anymore than a bat can
>> know what it's like to be me, we can't rule out the existence of
>> super-states of consciousness, perhaps possessed by Jupiter brains, which
>> would be able to simultaneously hold in mind and compare different brain
>> states.*
>
>
> We are enormously more intelligent than an ant but we don't know what it's
> like to be an ant, and for the same reason I don't see how a Jupiter Brain
> could know what it's like to be one of us; and becoming more intelligent won't
> help because that would just make it even more different from us.
>

We are enormously more intelligent than an ant but our working memories can
hold on to how many facts at once? 5? 10?

An ant brain has hundreds of thousands of neurons and tens of millions of
connections.

So despite our intelligence, our minds are no where near capable of
understanding and comprehending all the structural interrelationships
present in an ant brain.

A super intelligence, on the other hand, could have the requisite memory
and processing to hold in it's mind a comprehension of another, much
simpler mind, as well as the plausible flexibility to reconfigure parts of
it's own mind to generate direct experiences and extract memories
comprehensible to the greater mind at large.

Jason




> John K Clark
>
>>
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> .
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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-12 Thread John Clark 
On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:27 AM Jason Resch  wrote:

> *while I can't know what it's like to be a bat anymore than a bat can
> know what it's like to be me, we can't rule out the existence of
> super-states of consciousness, perhaps possessed by Jupiter brains, which
> would be able to simultaneously hold in mind and compare different brain
> states.*


We are enormously more intelligent than an ant but we don't know what it's
like to be an ant, and for the same reason I don't see how a Jupiter Brain
could know what it's like to be one of us; and becoming more intelligent won't
help because that would just make it even more different from us.

John K Clark

>
>

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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-11 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List 

My conjecture was basically employing a fancy neural net that would transmit 
vision, hearing, and sensation, to the researcher. Smell is something a 
biologist would need to work on since it's complex. This would be used not to 
control Mr. Bat, but to relay the bat's experiences to the human. Based on 
reception, alone, we'd get more info on what it is like being a bat? As in, "By 
golly, that mosquito sure tasted good," or, "That wind is nice." 
On Sunday, April 11, 2021 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
 wrote:
 That would be of some interest but I think it would fail to communicate what 
it is like to be a bat because of the inability to act as a bat.  I'm not sure 
your brain could learn to interpret visual input if it were not able to 
correlate it with touch and movement.
 
 Brent
 
 On 4/11/2021 11:06 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
  
 
Alternatively, let's do a thought experiment here, a pretend. Pretend that we 
are neuroscientists, and that we have lots  of research cash to spend? We have 
computer engineers at our disposal to design devices for us. So, we attach some 
sort of neural probes of highly advanced design, to bats, and a receiver of the 
signal to humans. The bats send and the humans receive, with the help of 
computer technology, transceivers, and all the rest. Thus, a human learns at 
least somewhat, what it's like to be bat. Sending the info from Human to a Bat 
would likely constitute torture, so let's not do that!
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Jason Resch 
 To: Everything List 
 Sent: Sat, Apr 10, 2021 11:27 am
 Subject: Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)
 

 
  On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 6:28 AM John Clark  wrote:
  
   On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 6:31 PM Jason Resch  wrote: 
   
> They {bats} could in some sense even feel the surfaces with such sonar: is 
> the surface smooth or rough, hard or soft, etc. Sound reflects differently 
> from different types of surfaces. 
 
  Yes. 
  
> Would they feel these surface differences as colors, 
 
  What you mean is, would they sense these surface differences as I SEE colors? 
  
> or would it feel more like tactile sensations? 
 
  What you mean is, would they sense these surface differences as I FEEL 
surfaces? The answer to both questions is a resounding NO. A particular bat 
senses surfaces not as you do but as a particular bat does. The only way Jason 
Resch Could ever know what it's like to be a particular bat would be for Jason 
Resch to turn into that bat, and even then he wouldn't know because then he 
wouldn't be Jason Resch anymore, he'd be a bat. And even a bat doesn't know 
what it's like to be another bat.  
   
  
  I agree generally with the idea that bat sonar sense could be completely 
alien to both our sight and our touch. 
  And while I can't know what it's like to be a bat anymore than a bat can know 
what it's like to be me, we can't rule out the existence of super-states of 
consciousness, perhaps possessed by Jupiter brains, which would be able to 
simultaneously hold in mind and compare different brain states, just as our 
vision can simultaneously look upon two faces and compare them. 
  If you could be this supermind then you might be able to know what it's like 
to be a bat and how that's different from being John. 
  Jason 
  
  


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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-11 Thread 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
That would be of some interest but I think it would fail to communicate 
what it is like to be a bat because of the inability to act as a bat.  
I'm not sure your brain could learn to interpret visual input if it were 
not able to correlate it with touch and movement.


Brent

On 4/11/2021 11:06 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Alternatively, let's do a thought experiment here, a pretend. Pretend 
that we are neuroscientists, and that we have lots  of research cash 
to spend? We have computer engineers at our disposal to design devices 
for us. So, we attach some sort of neural probes of highly advanced 
design, to bats, and a receiver of the signal to humans. The bats send 
and the humans receive, with the help of computer technology, 
transceivers, and all the rest. Thus, a human learns at least 
somewhat, what it's like to be bat. Sending the info from Human to a 
Bat would likely constitute torture, so let's not do that!



-Original Message-
From: Jason Resch 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Sat, Apr 10, 2021 11:27 am
Subject: Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)



On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 6:28 AM John Clark <mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>> wrote:


On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 6:31 PM Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote:

/> They {bats} could in some sense even feel the surfaces with
such sonar: is the surface smooth or rough, hard or soft, etc.
Sound reflects differently from different types of surfaces. /


Yes.

/> Would they feel these surface differences as colors, /


What you mean is, wouldthey sense these surface differences as*I
SEE***colors?

/> or would it feel more like tactile sensations? /


What you mean is, would they sense these surface differences as *I
FEEL* surfaces? The answer to both questions is a resounding *NO*.
A particular bat senses surfaces not as you do but as a particular
bat does. The only way Jason Resch Could ever know what it's like
to be a particular bat would be for Jason Resch to turn into that
bat, and even then he wouldn't know because then he wouldn't be
Jason Resch anymore, he'd be a bat. And even a bat doesn't know
what it's like to be another bat.



I agree generally with the idea that bat sonar sense could be 
completely alien to both our sight and our touch.


And while I can't know what it's like to be a bat anymore than a bat 
can know what it's like to be me, we can't rule out the existence of 
super-states of consciousness, perhaps possessed by Jupiter brains, 
which would be able to simultaneously hold in mind and compare 
different brain states, just as our vision can simultaneously look 
upon two faces and compare them.


If you could be this supermind then you might be able to know what 
it's like to be a bat and how that's different from being John.


Jason




John K Clark
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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-11 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List 
Alternatively, let's do a thought experiment here, a pretend. Pretend that we 
are neuroscientists, and that we have lots  of research cash to spend? We have 
computer engineers at our disposal to design devices for us. So, we attach some 
sort of neural probes of highly advanced design, to bats, and a receiver of the 
signal to humans. The bats send and the humans receive, with the help of 
computer technology, transceivers, and all the rest. Thus, a human learns at 
least somewhat, what it's like to be bat. Sending the info from Human to a Bat 
would likely constitute torture, so let's not do that!


-Original Message-
From: Jason Resch 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Sat, Apr 10, 2021 11:27 am
Subject: Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)



On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 6:28 AM John Clark  wrote:

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 6:31 PM Jason Resch  wrote:

> They {bats} could in some sense even feel the surfaces with such sonar: is 
> the surface smooth or rough, hard or soft, etc. Sound reflects differently 
> from different types of surfaces. 

Yes.

> Would they feel these surface differences as colors, 

What you mean is, would they sense these surface differences as I SEE colors?

> or would it feel more like tactile sensations? 

What you mean is, would they sense these surface differences as I FEEL 
surfaces? The answer to both questions is a resounding NO. A particular bat 
senses surfaces not as you do but as a particular bat does. The only way Jason 
Resch Could ever know what it's like to be a particular bat would be for Jason 
Resch to turn into that bat, and even then he wouldn't know because then he 
wouldn't be Jason Resch anymore, he'd be a bat. And even a bat doesn't know 
what it's like to be another bat. 


I agree generally with the idea that bat sonar sense could be completely alien 
to both our sight and our touch.
And while I can't know what it's like to be a bat anymore than a bat can know 
what it's like to be me, we can't rule out the existence of super-states of 
consciousness, perhaps possessed by Jupiter brains, which would be able to 
simultaneously hold in mind and compare different brain states, just as our 
vision can simultaneously look upon two faces and compare them.
If you could be this supermind then you might be able to know what it's like to 
be a bat and how that's different from being John.
Jason




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Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

2021-04-10 Thread Jason Resch 
On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 6:28 AM John Clark  wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 6:31 PM Jason Resch  wrote:
>
> *> They {bats} could in some sense even feel the surfaces with such sonar:
>> is the surface smooth or rough, hard or soft, etc. Sound reflects
>> differently from different types of surfaces. *
>
>
> Yes.
>
> *> Would they feel these surface differences as colors, *
>
>
> What you mean is, would they sense these surface differences as* I SEE*
> colors?
>
> *> or would it feel more like tactile sensations? *
>
>
> What you mean is, would they sense these surface differences as *I FEEL*
> surfaces? The answer to both questions is a resounding *NO*. A particular
> bat senses surfaces not as you do but as a particular bat does. The only
> way Jason Resch Could ever know what it's like to be a particular bat would
> be for Jason Resch to turn into that bat, and even then he wouldn't know
> because then he wouldn't be Jason Resch anymore, he'd be a bat. And even a
> bat doesn't know what it's like to be another bat.
>


I agree generally with the idea that bat sonar sense could be completely
alien to both our sight and our touch.

And while I can't know what it's like to be a bat anymore than a bat can
know what it's like to be me, we can't rule out the existence of
super-states of consciousness, perhaps possessed by Jupiter brains, which
would be able to simultaneously hold in mind and compare different brain
states, just as our vision can simultaneously look upon two faces and
compare them.

If you could be this supermind then you might be able to know what it's
like to be a bat and how that's different from being John.

Jason




> John K Clark
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