Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism
On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:46:03 AM UTC-5, yanniru wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 9:25:51 AM UTC-5, yanniru wrote: > >> > >> Craig, > >> > >> The monads themselves are sensitive, > > > > > > How? Why? > > They get information from every other monad in the universe. > by direct 1/r mapping, a sorta direct perception, > and some say reflection as well > They can get information without having perception or sensation. Why and how would information be experienced? > > > >> > >> being able to map or reflect or > >> perceive the rest of the universe instantly. > > > > > > That means that this capacity of reflection and perception is more > primitive > > Yes, indeed. > > > than the monads themselves. > > Yes, agreed. > > > >> > >> Whether they care or not > >> is beyond the scope of science. > > > > > > That's a cop out. The truth is the only scope of science. > > Well I was a little cavalier here. > I really meant mathematical physics. > Psychology is beyond the scope of my efforts. > The problem is that mathematical physics is only a small subset of physics, which is actually experiential. Most people mistake human experience for the only experience, so that psychology seems anthropological rather than physical. > > > >> > >> Not seeing any difference is your > >> problem. Richard > > > > > > Ok, but why should I want to fix this problem? Why does it matter which > > shapes are fundamental? It's like arguing whether percussion, wind, or > > stringed instruments are responsible for music. > > You are right. Trying to get a picture of reality is not likely to fix > anything. > But painting it is a hell of alota fun. Richard > > I suppose it can be fun. It seems more like a distraction to me, but I guess everyone has their favorite parts of the elephant. Craig > > > > > Craig > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/0NQ9oUIZexIJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism
On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 9:25:51 AM UTC-5, yanniru wrote: >> >> Craig, >> >> The monads themselves are sensitive, > > > How? Why? They get information from every other monad in the universe. by direct 1/r mapping, a sorta direct perception, and some say reflection as well > >> >> being able to map or reflect or >> perceive the rest of the universe instantly. > > > That means that this capacity of reflection and perception is more primitive Yes, indeed. > than the monads themselves. Yes, agreed. > >> >> Whether they care or not >> is beyond the scope of science. > > > That's a cop out. The truth is the only scope of science. Well I was a little cavalier here. I really meant mathematical physics. Psychology is beyond the scope of my efforts. > >> >> Not seeing any difference is your >> problem. Richard > > > Ok, but why should I want to fix this problem? Why does it matter which > shapes are fundamental? It's like arguing whether percussion, wind, or > stringed instruments are responsible for music. You are right. Trying to get a picture of reality is not likely to fix anything. But painting it is a hell of alota fun. Richard > > Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism
Hi Craig Weinberg I agree with you. I have no idea what Richard has in mind. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/16/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-16, 09:16:17 Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism I don't really see much of a difference whether we talk about BECs, strings, charged geometries, vacuum flux, aether, numbers, or any other spatially structured medium. Who cares? The question is how does that begin to know about something and to care about it? On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 9:08:35 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist OK, I was thinking about appying Leibniz to it. [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 1/16/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-16, 08:59:49 Subject: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism Roger, Any kind of particle from photons and light up to molecules can form a BEC. BEC is a mathematical object and not confined to any one substance. Even physical BECs have properties that are effectively outside spacetime. Richard On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Richard Ruquist > > That sounds fine, except the BEC is not something specific, it is > not a mind or brain, it is matter. I imagine that it condenses in > some container held near 0oC. That condensate could be > considered to be a monad or substance. And it could of course > be conscious in some way, but it has nothing to do with being human. > It is not even a brain in a vat. > > > > [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] > 1/16/2013 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > - Receiving the following content - > From: Richard Ruquist > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2013-01-16, 07:47:52 > Subject: Fwd: the curse of materialism > > > Roger, > I liked your "1p think therefore 1p am" > > But your statement below, although correct , is much too vague. > > Quantum mechanics is not understood because it is not complete. > Feynman came close to completing it but still missed an essential property. > > That property is that the quantum mind has instant action. > Something you have been preaching for some time. > With instant action, the quantum mind can be understood. > > Instant action derives directly from your claim that > the quantum mind from monads to quantum fields > are out side of spacetime. > > I just add that it is effectively out of spacetime > because the quantum mind is a > Bose-Einstein Condensate BEC. > which allows the monads to be distributed thru-out the universe yet > act as though they were out of spacetime. > Richard > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: Roger Clough > Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 5:01 AM > Subject: the curse of materialism > To: everything-list > > > Hi socr...@bezeqint.net > > You want to know why nobody understands QM ? > Because QM is nonphysical, but is treated as being physical. > This might be called the curse of materialism. > > > [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] > 1/16/2013 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > - Receiving the following content - > From: socr...@bezeqint.net > Receiver: Everything List > Time: 2013-01-15, 11:20:20 > Subject: Re: Science is a religion by itself. > > > Physics and Metaphysics. > > John Polkinghorne and his book ? Quantum theory?. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Polkinghorne > === . > > John Polkinghorne took epigraph for his book ? Quantum theory? > the Feynman? thought : ? I think I can safely say that > nobody understands quantum mechanics. ? > Why? > Because, he wrote: > ? ,we do not understand the theory as fully as we should. > We shall see in what follows that important interpretative > issues remain unresolved. They will demand for their > eventual settlement not only physical insight but also > metaphysical decision ?. > / preface/ > ? Serious interpretative problems remain unresolved, > and these are the subject of continuing dispute? > / page 40/ > ? If the study of quantum physics teaches one anything, > it is that the world is full of surprises? > / page 87 / > ? Metaphysical criteria that the scientific community take > very seriously in assessing the weigh
Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism
On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 9:25:51 AM UTC-5, yanniru wrote: > > Craig, > > The monads themselves are sensitive, How? Why? > being able to map or reflect or > perceive the rest of the universe instantly. That means that this capacity of reflection and perception is more primitive than the monads themselves. > Whether they care or not > is beyond the scope of science. That's a cop out. The truth is the only scope of science. > Not seeing any difference is your > problem. Richard > Ok, but why should I want to fix this problem? Why does it matter which shapes are fundamental? It's like arguing whether percussion, wind, or stringed instruments are responsible for music. Craig > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > I don't really see much of a difference whether we talk about BECs, > strings, > > charged geometries, vacuum flux, aether, numbers, or any other spatially > > structured medium. Who cares? The question is how does that begin to > know > > about something and to care about it? > > > > > > On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 9:08:35 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: > >> > >> Hi Richard Ruquist > >> > >> OK, I was thinking about appying Leibniz to it. > >> > >> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] > >> 1/16/2013 > >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > >> - Receiving the following content - > >> From: Richard Ruquist > >> Receiver: everything-list > >> Time: 2013-01-16, 08:59:49 > >> Subject: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism > >> > >> > >> Roger, Any kind of particle from photons and light up to molecules can > >> form a BEC. BEC is a mathematical object and not confined to any one > >> substance. Even physical BECs have properties that are effectively > >> outside spacetime. > >> Richard > >> > >> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > >> > Hi Richard Ruquist > >> > > >> > That sounds fine, except the BEC is not something specific, it is > >> > not a mind or brain, it is matter. I imagine that it condenses in > >> > some container held near 0oC. That condensate could be > >> > considered to be a monad or substance. And it could of course > >> > be conscious in some way, but it has nothing to do with being human. > >> > It is not even a brain in a vat. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] > >> > 1/16/2013 > >> > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > >> > - Receiving the following content - > >> > From: Richard Ruquist > >> > Receiver: everything-list > >> > Time: 2013-01-16, 07:47:52 > >> > Subject: Fwd: the curse of materialism > >> > > >> > > >> > Roger, > >> > I liked your "1p think therefore 1p am" > >> > > >> > But your statement below, although correct , is much too vague. > >> > > >> > Quantum mechanics is not understood because it is not complete. > >> > Feynman came close to completing it but still missed an essential > >> > property. > >> > > >> > That property is that the quantum mind has instant action. > >> > Something you have been preaching for some time. > >> > With instant action, the quantum mind can be understood. > >> > > >> > Instant action derives directly from your claim that > >> > the quantum mind from monads to quantum fields > >> > are out side of spacetime. > >> > > >> > I just add that it is effectively out of spacetime > >> > because the quantum mind is a > >> > Bose-Einstein Condensate BEC. > >> > which allows the monads to be distributed thru-out the universe yet > >> > act as though they were out of spacetime. > >> > Richard > >> > > >> > -- Forwarded message -- > >> > From: Roger Clough > >> > Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 5:01 AM > >> > Subject: the curse of materialism > >> > To: everything-list > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi socr...@bezeqint.net > >> > > >> > You want to know why nobody understands QM ? > >> >
Re: Re: Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism
Hi Richard Ruquist OK I'm fired. I leave the issue to you. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/16/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-16, 09:43:48 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism Roger, Your presumptions are incorrect. Also your monad definition. I am too old for bare naked. Stop being silly. Richard On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Richard Ruquist > > Yes, of course. The monads are mental representations of > physical bodies in the world. You will presumably have for > your physical object some container in L He with a BEC > at the bottom. Physical objects such as rocks produce > "bare naked " monads. Is that what you want ? > > > [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] > 1/16/2013 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > - Receiving the following content - > From: Richard Ruquist > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2013-01-16, 09:21:38 > Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism > > > I think its more like applying BEC to Leibniz's monads > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 9:08 AM, Roger Clough wrote: >> Hi Richard Ruquist >> >> OK, I was thinking about appying Leibniz to it. >> >> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] >> 1/16/2013 >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >> - Receiving the following content - >> From: Richard Ruquist >> Receiver: everything-list >> Time: 2013-01-16, 08:59:49 >> Subject: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism >> >> >> Roger, Any kind of particle from photons and light up to molecules can >> form a BEC. BEC is a mathematical object and not confined to any one >> substance. Even physical BECs have properties that are effectively >> outside spacetime. >> Richard >> >> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Roger Clough wrote: >>> Hi Richard Ruquist >>> >>> That sounds fine, except the BEC is not something specific, it is >>> not a mind or brain, it is matter. I imagine that it condenses in >>> some container held near 0oC. That condensate could be >>> considered to be a monad or substance. And it could of course >>> be conscious in some way, but it has nothing to do with being human. >>> It is not even a brain in a vat. >>> >>> >>> >>> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] >>> 1/16/2013 >>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >>> - Receiving the following content - >>> From: Richard Ruquist >>> Receiver: everything-list >>> Time: 2013-01-16, 07:47:52 >>> Subject: Fwd: the curse of materialism >>> >>> >>> Roger, >>> I liked your "1p think therefore 1p am" >>> >>> But your statement below, although correct , is much too vague. >>> >>> Quantum mechanics is not understood because it is not complete. >>> Feynman came close to completing it but still missed an essential property. >>> >>> That property is that the quantum mind has instant action. >>> Something you have been preaching for some time. >>> With instant action, the quantum mind can be understood. >>> >>> Instant action derives directly from your claim that >>> the quantum mind from monads to quantum fields >>> are out side of spacetime. >>> >>> I just add that it is effectively out of spacetime >>> because the quantum mind is a >>> Bose-Einstein Condensate BEC. >>> which allows the monads to be distributed thru-out the universe yet >>> act as though they were out of spacetime. >>> Richard >>> >>> -- Forwarded message -- >>> From: Roger Clough >>> Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 5:01 AM >>> Subject: the curse of materialism >>> To: everything-list >>> >>> >>> Hi socra...@bezeqint.net >>> >>> You want to know why nobody understands QM ? >>> Because QM is nonphysical, but is treated as being physical. >>> This might be called the curse of materialism. >>> >>> >>> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] >>> 1/16/2013 >>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >>> - Receiving the following content - >>> From: socra...@bezeqint.net >>> Receiver: Everything List
Re: Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism
Roger, Your presumptions are incorrect. Also your monad definition. I am too old for bare naked. Stop being silly. Richard On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Richard Ruquist > > Yes, of course. The monads are mental representations of > physical bodies in the world. You will presumably have for > your physical object some container in L He with a BEC > at the bottom. Physical objects such as rocks produce > "bare naked " monads. Is that what you want ? > > > [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] > 1/16/2013 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > - Receiving the following content - > From: Richard Ruquist > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2013-01-16, 09:21:38 > Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism > > > I think its more like applying BEC to Leibniz's monads > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 9:08 AM, Roger Clough wrote: >> Hi Richard Ruquist >> >> OK, I was thinking about appying Leibniz to it. >> >> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] >> 1/16/2013 >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >> ----- Receiving the following content - >> From: Richard Ruquist >> Receiver: everything-list >> Time: 2013-01-16, 08:59:49 >> Subject: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism >> >> >> Roger, Any kind of particle from photons and light up to molecules can >> form a BEC. BEC is a mathematical object and not confined to any one >> substance. Even physical BECs have properties that are effectively >> outside spacetime. >> Richard >> >> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Roger Clough wrote: >>> Hi Richard Ruquist >>> >>> That sounds fine, except the BEC is not something specific, it is >>> not a mind or brain, it is matter. I imagine that it condenses in >>> some container held near 0oC. That condensate could be >>> considered to be a monad or substance. And it could of course >>> be conscious in some way, but it has nothing to do with being human. >>> It is not even a brain in a vat. >>> >>> >>> >>> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] >>> 1/16/2013 >>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >>> - Receiving the following content - >>> From: Richard Ruquist >>> Receiver: everything-list >>> Time: 2013-01-16, 07:47:52 >>> Subject: Fwd: the curse of materialism >>> >>> >>> Roger, >>> I liked your "1p think therefore 1p am" >>> >>> But your statement below, although correct , is much too vague. >>> >>> Quantum mechanics is not understood because it is not complete. >>> Feynman came close to completing it but still missed an essential property. >>> >>> That property is that the quantum mind has instant action. >>> Something you have been preaching for some time. >>> With instant action, the quantum mind can be understood. >>> >>> Instant action derives directly from your claim that >>> the quantum mind from monads to quantum fields >>> are out side of spacetime. >>> >>> I just add that it is effectively out of spacetime >>> because the quantum mind is a >>> Bose-Einstein Condensate BEC. >>> which allows the monads to be distributed thru-out the universe yet >>> act as though they were out of spacetime. >>> Richard >>> >>> -- Forwarded message -- >>> From: Roger Clough >>> Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 5:01 AM >>> Subject: the curse of materialism >>> To: everything-list >>> >>> >>> Hi socra...@bezeqint.net >>> >>> You want to know why nobody understands QM ? >>> Because QM is nonphysical, but is treated as being physical. >>> This might be called the curse of materialism. >>> >>> >>> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] >>> 1/16/2013 >>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >>> - Receiving the following content - >>> From: socra...@bezeqint.net >>> Receiver: Everything List >>> Time: 2013-01-15, 11:20:20 >>> Subject: Re: Science is a religion by itself. >>> >>> >>> Physics and Metaphysics. >>> >>> John Polkinghorne and his book ? Quantum theory?. >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Polkinghorne >>> === . >>> >>> John Polkinghorn
Re: Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism
Hi Richard Ruquist Yes, of course. The monads are mental representations of physical bodies in the world. You will presumably have for your physical object some container in L He with a BEC at the bottom. Physical objects such as rocks produce "bare naked " monads. Is that what you want ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/16/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-16, 09:21:38 Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism I think its more like applying BEC to Leibniz's monads On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 9:08 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Richard Ruquist > > OK, I was thinking about appying Leibniz to it. > > [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] > 1/16/2013 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > - Receiving the following content - > From: Richard Ruquist > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2013-01-16, 08:59:49 > Subject: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism > > > Roger, Any kind of particle from photons and light up to molecules can > form a BEC. BEC is a mathematical object and not confined to any one > substance. Even physical BECs have properties that are effectively > outside spacetime. > Richard > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Roger Clough wrote: >> Hi Richard Ruquist >> >> That sounds fine, except the BEC is not something specific, it is >> not a mind or brain, it is matter. I imagine that it condenses in >> some container held near 0oC. That condensate could be >> considered to be a monad or substance. And it could of course >> be conscious in some way, but it has nothing to do with being human. >> It is not even a brain in a vat. >> >> >> >> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] >> 1/16/2013 >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >> - Receiving the following content - >> From: Richard Ruquist >> Receiver: everything-list >> Time: 2013-01-16, 07:47:52 >> Subject: Fwd: the curse of materialism >> >> >> Roger, >> I liked your "1p think therefore 1p am" >> >> But your statement below, although correct , is much too vague. >> >> Quantum mechanics is not understood because it is not complete. >> Feynman came close to completing it but still missed an essential property. >> >> That property is that the quantum mind has instant action. >> Something you have been preaching for some time. >> With instant action, the quantum mind can be understood. >> >> Instant action derives directly from your claim that >> the quantum mind from monads to quantum fields >> are out side of spacetime. >> >> I just add that it is effectively out of spacetime >> because the quantum mind is a >> Bose-Einstein Condensate BEC. >> which allows the monads to be distributed thru-out the universe yet >> act as though they were out of spacetime. >> Richard >> >> -- Forwarded message -- >> From: Roger Clough >> Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 5:01 AM >> Subject: the curse of materialism >> To: everything-list >> >> >> Hi socra...@bezeqint.net >> >> You want to know why nobody understands QM ? >> Because QM is nonphysical, but is treated as being physical. >> This might be called the curse of materialism. >> >> >> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] >> 1/16/2013 >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >> - Receiving the following content - >> From: socra...@bezeqint.net >> Receiver: Everything List >> Time: 2013-01-15, 11:20:20 >> Subject: Re: Science is a religion by itself. >> >> >> Physics and Metaphysics. >> >> John Polkinghorne and his book ? Quantum theory?. >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Polkinghorne >> === . >> >> John Polkinghorne took epigraph for his book ? Quantum theory? >> the Feynman? thought : ? I think I can safely say that >> nobody understands quantum mechanics. ? >> Why? >> Because, he wrote: >> ? ,we do not understand the theory as fully as we should. >> We shall see in what follows that important interpretative >> issues remain unresolved. They will demand for their >> eventual settlement not only physical insight but also >> metaphysical decision ?. >> / preface/ >> ? Seriou
Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism
Craig, The monads themselves are sensitive, being able to map or reflect or perceive the rest of the universe instantly. Whether they care or not is beyond the scope of science. Not seeing any difference is your problem. Richard On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > I don't really see much of a difference whether we talk about BECs, strings, > charged geometries, vacuum flux, aether, numbers, or any other spatially > structured medium. Who cares? The question is how does that begin to know > about something and to care about it? > > > On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 9:08:35 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: >> >> Hi Richard Ruquist >> >> OK, I was thinking about appying Leibniz to it. >> >> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] >> 1/16/2013 >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >> - Receiving the following content - >> From: Richard Ruquist >> Receiver: everything-list >> Time: 2013-01-16, 08:59:49 >> Subject: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism >> >> >> Roger, Any kind of particle from photons and light up to molecules can >> form a BEC. BEC is a mathematical object and not confined to any one >> substance. Even physical BECs have properties that are effectively >> outside spacetime. >> Richard >> >> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Roger Clough wrote: >> > Hi Richard Ruquist >> > >> > That sounds fine, except the BEC is not something specific, it is >> > not a mind or brain, it is matter. I imagine that it condenses in >> > some container held near 0oC. That condensate could be >> > considered to be a monad or substance. And it could of course >> > be conscious in some way, but it has nothing to do with being human. >> > It is not even a brain in a vat. >> > >> > >> > >> > [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] >> > 1/16/2013 >> > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >> > - Receiving the following content - >> > From: Richard Ruquist >> > Receiver: everything-list >> > Time: 2013-01-16, 07:47:52 >> > Subject: Fwd: the curse of materialism >> > >> > >> > Roger, >> > I liked your "1p think therefore 1p am" >> > >> > But your statement below, although correct , is much too vague. >> > >> > Quantum mechanics is not understood because it is not complete. >> > Feynman came close to completing it but still missed an essential >> > property. >> > >> > That property is that the quantum mind has instant action. >> > Something you have been preaching for some time. >> > With instant action, the quantum mind can be understood. >> > >> > Instant action derives directly from your claim that >> > the quantum mind from monads to quantum fields >> > are out side of spacetime. >> > >> > I just add that it is effectively out of spacetime >> > because the quantum mind is a >> > Bose-Einstein Condensate BEC. >> > which allows the monads to be distributed thru-out the universe yet >> > act as though they were out of spacetime. >> > Richard >> > >> > -- Forwarded message -- >> > From: Roger Clough >> > Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 5:01 AM >> > Subject: the curse of materialism >> > To: everything-list >> > >> > >> > Hi socr...@bezeqint.net >> > >> > You want to know why nobody understands QM ? >> > Because QM is nonphysical, but is treated as being physical. >> > This might be called the curse of materialism. >> > >> > >> > [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] >> > 1/16/2013 >> > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >> > - Receiving the following content - >> > From: socr...@bezeqint.net >> > Receiver: Everything List >> > Time: 2013-01-15, 11:20:20 >> > Subject: Re: Science is a religion by itself. >> > >> > >> > Physics and Metaphysics. >> > >> > John Polkinghorne and his book ? Quantum theory?. >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Polkinghorne >> > === . >> > >> > John Polkinghorne took epigraph for his book ? Quantum theory? >> > the Feynman? thought : ? I think I can safely say that >> > nobody understands quantum mechanics. ? >> > Why? >> > Because, he wrote: >> > ? ,we do not u
Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism
I think its more like applying BEC to Leibniz's monads On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 9:08 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Richard Ruquist > > OK, I was thinking about appying Leibniz to it. > > [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] > 1/16/2013 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > - Receiving the following content - > From: Richard Ruquist > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2013-01-16, 08:59:49 > Subject: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism > > > Roger, Any kind of particle from photons and light up to molecules can > form a BEC. BEC is a mathematical object and not confined to any one > substance. Even physical BECs have properties that are effectively > outside spacetime. > Richard > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Roger Clough wrote: >> Hi Richard Ruquist >> >> That sounds fine, except the BEC is not something specific, it is >> not a mind or brain, it is matter. I imagine that it condenses in >> some container held near 0oC. That condensate could be >> considered to be a monad or substance. And it could of course >> be conscious in some way, but it has nothing to do with being human. >> It is not even a brain in a vat. >> >> >> >> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] >> 1/16/2013 >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >> - Receiving the following content - >> From: Richard Ruquist >> Receiver: everything-list >> Time: 2013-01-16, 07:47:52 >> Subject: Fwd: the curse of materialism >> >> >> Roger, >> I liked your "1p think therefore 1p am" >> >> But your statement below, although correct , is much too vague. >> >> Quantum mechanics is not understood because it is not complete. >> Feynman came close to completing it but still missed an essential property. >> >> That property is that the quantum mind has instant action. >> Something you have been preaching for some time. >> With instant action, the quantum mind can be understood. >> >> Instant action derives directly from your claim that >> the quantum mind from monads to quantum fields >> are out side of spacetime. >> >> I just add that it is effectively out of spacetime >> because the quantum mind is a >> Bose-Einstein Condensate BEC. >> which allows the monads to be distributed thru-out the universe yet >> act as though they were out of spacetime. >> Richard >> >> -- Forwarded message -- >> From: Roger Clough >> Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 5:01 AM >> Subject: the curse of materialism >> To: everything-list >> >> >> Hi socra...@bezeqint.net >> >> You want to know why nobody understands QM ? >> Because QM is nonphysical, but is treated as being physical. >> This might be called the curse of materialism. >> >> >> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] >> 1/16/2013 >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >> - Receiving the following content - >> From: socra...@bezeqint.net >> Receiver: Everything List >> Time: 2013-01-15, 11:20:20 >> Subject: Re: Science is a religion by itself. >> >> >> Physics and Metaphysics. >> >> John Polkinghorne and his book ? Quantum theory?. >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Polkinghorne >> === . >> >> John Polkinghorne took epigraph for his book ? Quantum theory? >> the Feynman? thought : ? I think I can safely say that >> nobody understands quantum mechanics. ? >> Why? >> Because, he wrote: >> ? ,we do not understand the theory as fully as we should. >> We shall see in what follows that important interpretative >> issues remain unresolved. They will demand for their >> eventual settlement not only physical insight but also >> metaphysical decision ?. >> / preface/ >> ? Serious interpretative problems remain unresolved, >> and these are the subject of continuing dispute? >> / page 40/ >> ? If the study of quantum physics teaches one anything, >> it is that the world is full of surprises? >> / page 87 / >> ? Metaphysical criteria that the scientific community take >> very seriously in assessing the weight to put on a theory >> include: . . . .? >> / page 88 / >> ?uantum theory is certainly strange and surprising, . . .? >> / page92 / >> ? Wave / particle duality is a highly surprising and >> instructive phenomenon, . .? >> / page 92 / >> ==. >> In my opinion John Polkinghorne was right writing >&g
Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism
I don't really see much of a difference whether we talk about BECs, strings, charged geometries, vacuum flux, aether, numbers, or any other spatially structured medium. Who cares? The question is how does that begin to know about something and to care about it? On Wednesday, January 16, 2013 9:08:35 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: > > Hi Richard Ruquist > > OK, I was thinking about appying Leibniz to it. > > [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net ] > 1/16/2013 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > - Receiving the following content - > From: Richard Ruquist > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2013-01-16, 08:59:49 > Subject: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism > > > Roger, Any kind of particle from photons and light up to molecules can > form a BEC. BEC is a mathematical object and not confined to any one > substance. Even physical BECs have properties that are effectively > outside spacetime. > Richard > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > > Hi Richard Ruquist > > > > That sounds fine, except the BEC is not something specific, it is > > not a mind or brain, it is matter. I imagine that it condenses in > > some container held near 0oC. That condensate could be > > considered to be a monad or substance. And it could of course > > be conscious in some way, but it has nothing to do with being human. > > It is not even a brain in a vat. > > > > > > > > [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net ] > > 1/16/2013 > > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > > - Receiving the following content - > > From: Richard Ruquist > > Receiver: everything-list > > Time: 2013-01-16, 07:47:52 > > Subject: Fwd: the curse of materialism > > > > > > Roger, > > I liked your "1p think therefore 1p am" > > > > But your statement below, although correct , is much too vague. > > > > Quantum mechanics is not understood because it is not complete. > > Feynman came close to completing it but still missed an essential > property. > > > > That property is that the quantum mind has instant action. > > Something you have been preaching for some time. > > With instant action, the quantum mind can be understood. > > > > Instant action derives directly from your claim that > > the quantum mind from monads to quantum fields > > are out side of spacetime. > > > > I just add that it is effectively out of spacetime > > because the quantum mind is a > > Bose-Einstein Condensate BEC. > > which allows the monads to be distributed thru-out the universe yet > > act as though they were out of spacetime. > > Richard > > > > -- Forwarded message -- > > From: Roger Clough > > Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 5:01 AM > > Subject: the curse of materialism > > To: everything-list > > > > > > Hi socr...@bezeqint.net > > > > You want to know why nobody understands QM ? > > Because QM is nonphysical, but is treated as being physical. > > This might be called the curse of materialism. > > > > > > [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net ] > > 1/16/2013 > > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > > - Receiving the following content - > > From: socr...@bezeqint.net > > Receiver: Everything List > > Time: 2013-01-15, 11:20:20 > > Subject: Re: Science is a religion by itself. > > > > > > Physics and Metaphysics. > > > > John Polkinghorne and his book ? Quantum theory?. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Polkinghorne > > === . > > > > John Polkinghorne took epigraph for his book ? Quantum theory? > > the Feynman? thought : ? I think I can safely say that > > nobody understands quantum mechanics. ? > > Why? > > Because, he wrote: > > ? ,we do not understand the theory as fully as we should. > > We shall see in what follows that important interpretative > > issues remain unresolved. They will demand for their > > eventual settlement not only physical insight but also > > metaphysical decision ?. > > / preface/ > > ? Serious interpretative problems remain unresolved, > > and these are the subject of continuing dispute? > > / page 40/ > > ? If the study of quantum physics teaches one anything, > > it is that the world is full of surprises? > > / page 87 / > > ? Metaphysica
Re: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism
Hi Richard Ruquist OK, I was thinking about appying Leibniz to it. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/16/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-16, 08:59:49 Subject: Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism Roger, Any kind of particle from photons and light up to molecules can form a BEC. BEC is a mathematical object and not confined to any one substance. Even physical BECs have properties that are effectively outside spacetime. Richard On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Richard Ruquist > > That sounds fine, except the BEC is not something specific, it is > not a mind or brain, it is matter. I imagine that it condenses in > some container held near 0oC. That condensate could be > considered to be a monad or substance. And it could of course > be conscious in some way, but it has nothing to do with being human. > It is not even a brain in a vat. > > > > [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] > 1/16/2013 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > - Receiving the following content - > From: Richard Ruquist > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2013-01-16, 07:47:52 > Subject: Fwd: the curse of materialism > > > Roger, > I liked your "1p think therefore 1p am" > > But your statement below, although correct , is much too vague. > > Quantum mechanics is not understood because it is not complete. > Feynman came close to completing it but still missed an essential property. > > That property is that the quantum mind has instant action. > Something you have been preaching for some time. > With instant action, the quantum mind can be understood. > > Instant action derives directly from your claim that > the quantum mind from monads to quantum fields > are out side of spacetime. > > I just add that it is effectively out of spacetime > because the quantum mind is a > Bose-Einstein Condensate BEC. > which allows the monads to be distributed thru-out the universe yet > act as though they were out of spacetime. > Richard > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: Roger Clough > Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 5:01 AM > Subject: the curse of materialism > To: everything-list > > > Hi socra...@bezeqint.net > > You want to know why nobody understands QM ? > Because QM is nonphysical, but is treated as being physical. > This might be called the curse of materialism. > > > [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] > 1/16/2013 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > - Receiving the following content - > From: socra...@bezeqint.net > Receiver: Everything List > Time: 2013-01-15, 11:20:20 > Subject: Re: Science is a religion by itself. > > > Physics and Metaphysics. > > John Polkinghorne and his book ? Quantum theory?. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Polkinghorne > === . > > John Polkinghorne took epigraph for his book ? Quantum theory? > the Feynman? thought : ? I think I can safely say that > nobody understands quantum mechanics. ? > Why? > Because, he wrote: > ? ,we do not understand the theory as fully as we should. > We shall see in what follows that important interpretative > issues remain unresolved. They will demand for their > eventual settlement not only physical insight but also > metaphysical decision ?. > / preface/ > ? Serious interpretative problems remain unresolved, > and these are the subject of continuing dispute? > / page 40/ > ? If the study of quantum physics teaches one anything, > it is that the world is full of surprises? > / page 87 / > ? Metaphysical criteria that the scientific community take > very seriously in assessing the weight to put on a theory > include: . . . .? > / page 88 / > ?uantum theory is certainly strange and surprising, . . .? > / page92 / > ? Wave / particle duality is a highly surprising and > instructive phenomenon, . .? > / page 92 / > ==. > In my opinion John Polkinghorne was right writing > what to understand and to solve the problems of the Universe: > ? They will demand for their eventual settlement not only > physical insight but also metaphysical decision ?. > / preface / > And, maybe, Aristotle was right separating the world and knowledge > on two parts: Physics and Metaphysics. > === . > Somebody wrote: > The science will purify the religion of the ?ross?. > I agree. > ===. > Best wishes. > Israel Sadovnik Socratus. >
Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism
Roger, Any kind of particle from photons and light up to molecules can form a BEC. BEC is a mathematical object and not confined to any one substance. Even physical BECs have properties that are effectively outside spacetime. Richard On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Richard Ruquist > > That sounds fine, except the BEC is not something specific, it is > not a mind or brain, it is matter. I imagine that it condenses in > some container held near 0oC. That condensate could be > considered to be a monad or substance. And it could of course > be conscious in some way, but it has nothing to do with being human. > It is not even a brain in a vat. > > > > [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] > 1/16/2013 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > - Receiving the following content - > From: Richard Ruquist > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2013-01-16, 07:47:52 > Subject: Fwd: the curse of materialism > > > Roger, > I liked your "1p think therefore 1p am" > > But your statement below, although correct , is much too vague. > > Quantum mechanics is not understood because it is not complete. > Feynman came close to completing it but still missed an essential property. > > That property is that the quantum mind has instant action. > Something you have been preaching for some time. > With instant action, the quantum mind can be understood. > > Instant action derives directly from your claim that > the quantum mind from monads to quantum fields > are out side of spacetime. > > I just add that it is effectively out of spacetime > because the quantum mind is a > Bose-Einstein Condensate BEC. > which allows the monads to be distributed thru-out the universe yet > act as though they were out of spacetime. > Richard > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: Roger Clough > Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 5:01 AM > Subject: the curse of materialism > To: everything-list > > > Hi socra...@bezeqint.net > > You want to know why nobody understands QM ? > Because QM is nonphysical, but is treated as being physical. > This might be called the curse of materialism. > > > [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] > 1/16/2013 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen > - Receiving the following content - > From: socra...@bezeqint.net > Receiver: Everything List > Time: 2013-01-15, 11:20:20 > Subject: Re: Science is a religion by itself. > > > Physics and Metaphysics. > > John Polkinghorne and his book ? Quantum theory?. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Polkinghorne > === . > > John Polkinghorne took epigraph for his book ? Quantum theory? > the Feynman? thought : ? I think I can safely say that > nobody understands quantum mechanics. ? > Why? > Because, he wrote: > ? ,we do not understand the theory as fully as we should. > We shall see in what follows that important interpretative > issues remain unresolved. They will demand for their > eventual settlement not only physical insight but also > metaphysical decision ?. > / preface/ > ? Serious interpretative problems remain unresolved, > and these are the subject of continuing dispute? > / page 40/ > ? If the study of quantum physics teaches one anything, > it is that the world is full of surprises? > / page 87 / > ? Metaphysical criteria that the scientific community take > very seriously in assessing the weight to put on a theory > include: . . . .? > / page 88 / > ?uantum theory is certainly strange and surprising, . . .? > / page92 / > ? Wave / particle duality is a highly surprising and > instructive phenomenon, . .? > / page 92 / > ==. > In my opinion John Polkinghorne was right writing > what to understand and to solve the problems of the Universe: > ? They will demand for their eventual settlement not only > physical insight but also metaphysical decision ?. > / preface / > And, maybe, Aristotle was right separating the world and knowledge > on two parts: Physics and Metaphysics. > === . > Somebody wrote: > The science will purify the religion of the ?ross?. > I agree. > ===. > Best wishes. > Israel Sadovnik Socratus. > ===. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To
Re: Fwd: the curse of materialism
Hi Richard Ruquist That sounds fine, except the BEC is not something specific, it is not a mind or brain, it is matter. I imagine that it condenses in some container held near 0oC. That condensate could be considered to be a monad or substance. And it could of course be conscious in some way, but it has nothing to do with being human. It is not even a brain in a vat. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/16/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-16, 07:47:52 Subject: Fwd: the curse of materialism Roger, I liked your "1p think therefore 1p am" But your statement below, although correct , is much too vague. Quantum mechanics is not understood because it is not complete. Feynman came close to completing it but still missed an essential property. That property is that the quantum mind has instant action. Something you have been preaching for some time. With instant action, the quantum mind can be understood. Instant action derives directly from your claim that the quantum mind from monads to quantum fields are out side of spacetime. I just add that it is effectively out of spacetime because the quantum mind is a Bose-Einstein Condensate BEC. which allows the monads to be distributed thru-out the universe yet act as though they were out of spacetime. Richard -- Forwarded message -- From: Roger Clough Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 5:01 AM Subject: the curse of materialism To: everything-list Hi socra...@bezeqint.net You want to know why nobody understands QM ? Because QM is nonphysical, but is treated as being physical. This might be called the curse of materialism. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/16/2013 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: socra...@bezeqint.net Receiver: Everything List Time: 2013-01-15, 11:20:20 Subject: Re: Science is a religion by itself. Physics and Metaphysics. John Polkinghorne and his book ? Quantum theory?. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Polkinghorne === . John Polkinghorne took epigraph for his book ? Quantum theory? the Feynman? thought : ? I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics. ? Why? Because, he wrote: ? ,we do not understand the theory as fully as we should. We shall see in what follows that important interpretative issues remain unresolved. They will demand for their eventual settlement not only physical insight but also metaphysical decision ?. / preface/ ? Serious interpretative problems remain unresolved, and these are the subject of continuing dispute? / page 40/ ? If the study of quantum physics teaches one anything, it is that the world is full of surprises? / page 87 / ? Metaphysical criteria that the scientific community take very seriously in assessing the weight to put on a theory include: . . . .? / page 88 / ?uantum theory is certainly strange and surprising, . . .? / page92 / ? Wave / particle duality is a highly surprising and instructive phenomenon, . .? / page 92 / ==. In my opinion John Polkinghorne was right writing what to understand and to solve the problems of the Universe: ? They will demand for their eventual settlement not only physical insight but also metaphysical decision ?. / preface / And, maybe, Aristotle was right separating the world and knowledge on two parts: Physics and Metaphysics. === . Somebody wrote: The science will purify the religion of the ?ross?. I agree. ===. Best wishes. Israel Sadovnik Socratus. ===. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googleg
