Re: Where are they?

[meekerdb]

On 4/26/2015 4:59 PM, John Clark wrote:
I wonder how a intelligent conscious being would react if it had full access to its 
emotional control panel. Regardless of how well our life is going who among us would for 
eternity opt out of becoming just a little bit happier if all it took was turning a 
knob? And after you turn it a little bit and see how much better you feel why not turn 
it again, perhaps a little more this time. Maybe drug addiction is the first signs of 
that very dangerous positive feedback loop. During most of human existence this was a 
non-issue but then about 8000 BC alcoholic beverages were invented, but they were so 
dilute you'd really have to work at it to get into trouble. Then about 500 years ago 
distilled alcoholic beverages were invented and it became much easier to become a 
alcoholic. Today we have many drugs that are far more powerful than alcohol. What 
happens if this trend continues exponentially?


> Perhaps at some level of intelligence other things become more important 
than
consuming more and more energy


Perhaps a eternal orgasm will become more important than consuming more and more energy, 
and more important than anything else, and more important than everything else put 
together. Perhaps the world does't end in a bang or a whimper but a groan of mindless 
pleasure.


That implicitly assumes that pleasure is one-dimensional.  One nice thing about orgasms, 
like most pleasures, is that they are satiating.  Having a multi-dimensional pleasure 
space might almost define intelligence.


Brent

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Re: Where are they?

[John Clark]

On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> This makes it even more important that we don’t blow it on our own little
> world. Or perhaps it is evidence that *we are going to blow it* just like
> every other species has on every other star that has developed
> intelligence. Our current race towards global war certainly seems to
> indicate that the second hypothesis has merit.


Maybe, but the peak danger of a global war being so terrible it caused the
extinction of the entire human race happened in the 1960s and we survived
that, the danger is still not zero but it's a lot less. I hope the
explanation for the Fermi Paradox is just that we're the first in the
observable universe; after all in a finite universe, and the observable
universe is finite, somebody has to be first. But if we're not the first
then some calamity must happen to any civilization when it reaches a
certain level, but I don't think it's war.

I wonder how a intelligent conscious being would react if it had full
access to its emotional control panel. Regardless of how well our life is
going who among us would for eternity opt out of becoming just a little bit
happier if all it took was turning a knob? And after you turn it a little
bit and see how much better you feel why not turn it again, perhaps a
little more this time. Maybe drug addiction is the first signs of that very
dangerous positive feedback loop. During most of human existence this was a
non-issue but then about 8000 BC alcoholic beverages were invented, but
they were so dilute you'd really have to work at it to get into trouble.
Then about 500 years ago distilled alcoholic beverages were invented and it
became much easier to become a alcoholic. Today we have many drugs that are
far more powerful than alcohol. What happens if this trend continues
exponentially?

> Perhaps at some level of intelligence other things become more important
> than consuming more and more energy


Perhaps a eternal orgasm will become more important than consuming more and
more energy, and more important than anything else, and more important than
everything else put together. Perhaps the world does't end in a bang or a
whimper but a groan of mindless pleasure.

> Perhaps at some level of intelligence  growth in energy consumption no
> longer appeals. Why assume that a super advanced civilization would go down
> the route  of creating Dyson spheres around every star in its galaxy, which
> is what the study was surveying for.


I don't worry about ET using less energy but I do worry about him not
havinf any intellectual curiosity and if ET exists he sure doesn't seem
very interested in the universe he lives in. And it's not like it would
difficult,  ET doesn't even need to travel to the stars, ET just needs to
send one Von Neumann probe to one star.

Even assuming ET can't send space probes any faster than we can ( a
ridiculously conservative assumption) then almost instantly from a cosmic
perspective (less than 50 million years) the entire Galaxy would be
unrecognizable. It's not as if this would take some huge commitment on the
part of ET's civilization, in fact even a individual could easily do it. If
Von Neumann probes are possible at all, and I can't think why they wouldn't
be, then they're going to be dirt cheap, you buying a bag of peanuts would
be a greater drag on your financial resources. Even if many or even most
ETs think that sending out a von Neumann probe would be a bad idea there
will always be somebody who disagrees. And it only takes one.

  John K Clark

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Re: Where are they?

[meekerdb]

On 4/26/2015 1:18 AM, LizR wrote:
On 26 April 2015 at 13:07, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> 
wrote:


Nonsense. He was in poor health and he had long suffered drastic swings in mood. 
Today he would be diagnosed as bipolar.  He also had reason to be  depressed because

his ideas were rejected on the Continent.  They were considered crazy 
because it was
obviously impossible to derive irreversible processes from reversible 
physics.


This was correct. Boltzmann smuggled the arrow of time into his calculations via an 
assumption concerning whether their velocities were correlated or independent (I forget 
the details, but Huw Price explained it very neatly so even I got it, at least at the 
time). However, that wasn't a reason to "throw out the baby with the bathwater" - 
thermodynamics still works, of course, if you can get a system into a low entropy state 
to start with.


Boltzmann's assumption of uncorreleated velocities worked and he got the thermodynamics of 
an ideal gas from stat mech precisely because thermodynamics described gases in terms of 
pressure and temperature, a description which ignored those correlations.  His great 
contribution was to see that entropy was the measure of microscopic degrees of freedom 
relative to which macroscopic constraints were assumed.  If he'd only lived a few more 
years he would have seen his ideas vindicated by Planck's application to black body radiation.


Brent

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Re: Where are they?

[Alberto G. Corona]

The reasons are wherever. Just hear depressed people or last writings of
suicide people. There are many other social adaptations like this. for
example the wite of the eyes.

b
But at the level of depression or suicide, moral feelings like for example
the self remorse when we do something bad to others and move us to beg
pardon . Or the weight that we carry when do wrong things in general. Only
psychopaths are free from that.

That these are adaptations is self evident. Because the wise people have
know that since the beginning of the time: A society can not work not nor
ever will work without these moral aspects of human nature and these
impulses are universal for all peoples all times.

That the science has'nt studied that in detail tell a lot about how deeply
flawed and biased  the modern science is.

2015-04-26 10:20 GMT+02:00 LizR :

> On 26 April 2015 at 19:43, Alberto G. Corona  wrote:
>
>> What happens with the (unconscious) nominalists is that you fight the
>> details while ignoring the categories. I have the least interest in
>> discussing the life of Boltzmann or anyone. What is important for me is to
>> stress that suicide and depression is a form of social apoptosis.
>>
>> I'm not sure I like the implications of that, especially when you're
> talking about someone like Boltzmann. Do you have a good reason to think
> that suicide and depression evolved to rid the "body of society" of faulty
> cells, rather than just being a spandrel resulting, say, from having a
> complex nervous system?
>
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Re: Where are they?

[LizR]

On 26 April 2015 at 19:43, Alberto G. Corona  wrote:

> What happens with the (unconscious) nominalists is that you fight the
> details while ignoring the categories. I have the least interest in
> discussing the life of Boltzmann or anyone. What is important for me is to
> stress that suicide and depression is a form of social apoptosis.
>
> I'm not sure I like the implications of that, especially when you're
talking about someone like Boltzmann. Do you have a good reason to think
that suicide and depression evolved to rid the "body of society" of faulty
cells, rather than just being a spandrel resulting, say, from having a
complex nervous system?

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Re: Where are they?

[LizR]

On 26 April 2015 at 13:07, meekerdb  wrote:

> Nonsense.  He was in poor health and he had long suffered drastic swings
> in mood.  Today he would be diagnosed as bipolar.  He also had reason to
> be  depressed because his ideas were rejected on the Continent.  They were
> considered crazy because it was obviously impossible to derive irreversible
> processes from reversible physics.
>

This was correct. Boltzmann smuggled the arrow of time into his
calculations via an assumption concerning whether their velocities were
correlated or independent (I forget the details, but Huw Price explained it
very neatly so even I got it, at least at the time). However, that wasn't a
reason to "throw out the baby with the bathwater" - thermodynamics still
works, of course, if you can get a system into a low entropy state to start
with.

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Re: Where are they?

[Alberto G. Corona]

What happens with the (unconscious) nominalists is that you fight the
details while ignoring the categories. I have the least interest in
discussing the life of Boltzmann or anyone. What is important for me is to
stress that suicide and depression is a form of social apoptosis.

2015-04-26 3:07 GMT+02:00 meekerdb :

>  On 4/20/2015 3:51 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>
> * once day by day survival is solved, people need a meaning.*
>
>
> If it works for them why is it your problem?
>
>
>  That is why modern people put his life at risk in extreme sports and so
> on: short term risk evade from existential vacuum.
>
> 2015-04-20 12:49 GMT+02:00 Alberto G. Corona :
>
>> The amazing thing is how what would happen in 100 trillion years may
>> preoccupy so seriously to some people that would induce to suicide.
>> Boltzman committed suicide in part because his own theories of
>> termodinamical dead of the universe more or less.
>>
>
> Nonsense.  He was in poor health and he had long suffered drastic swings
> in mood.  Today he would be diagnosed as bipolar.  He also had reason to
> be  depressed because his ideas were rejected on the Continent.  They were
> considered crazy because it was obviously impossible to derive irreversible
> processes from reversible physics.
>
>
>>  Other people are influenced equally hard, but unconsciously by very
>> long term perspectives that are beyond his own timespan.
>>
>>  And this tells something very important about the human condition: once
>> day by day survival is solved, people need a meaning. that means that he
>> need to live in a society with a plan and to work for this plan, which is a
>> kind of salvation. This is in the constitution of human beings, induced by
>> evolution if you like, but it is there no doubt. suicide means that the
>> person think unconsciously that it can not contribute.
>>
>
> Yes, I think that is more accurate than suicide over thermodynamics.
> Boltzmann's successor Paul Ehrenfest also committed suicide and also
> suffered severe depression.  Ehrenfest was always very critical of
> himself.  After arranging for the care of his other children, he shot his
> Down syndrome son and then himself.
>
> Brent
>
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Alberto.

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Re: Where are they?

[Alberto G. Corona]

Uncertainty is not the same than the certainty of obliteration, as
Boltzmann I suppose that he felt. Freemann Dyson tried to overcome the
Boltzmannian conclussions not for a intellectual exercise, but as a serious
treat to the vital perspectives of people here and now.

Uncertainty is not depressing, it is encouraging. Makes you to be more
alert.  Makes you to bet in some outcomes, fight against the plans of
others.

Commenting in what you say,  Nobody know what will happen. You reach
prepature conclussions based on your local environment, The idea that the
future is to one wold government exist since Atila or since the first
tribeman holded the first stone.

But it seems that very powerful people has endorsed it. If I were
super-powerful and rich and I were the kind of enlightened idiot with
stone-age morality that is very common today, I would consider the planet
as a my yard and would work for maintaining this yard for my own family
intact for generations, with my family in power: clean, ordered and with as
little  populace as possible. I also would fight for a world government
where... Ahem, I would better take the responsibility of caring for you.

2015-04-24 0:36 GMT+02:00 Telmo Menezes :

>
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Alberto G. Corona 
> wrote:
>
>> The amazing thing is how what would happen in 100 trillion years may
>> preoccupy so seriously to some people that would induce to suicide.
>> Boltzman committed suicide in part because his own theories of
>> termodinamical dead of the universe more or less.
>>
>> Other people are influenced equally hard, but unconsciously by very long
>> term perspectives that are beyond his own timespan.
>>
>> And this tells something very important about the human condition: once
>> day by day survival is solved, people need a meaning. that means that he
>> need to live in a society with a plan and to work for this plan, which is a
>> kind of salvation.
>>
>
> I agree with this.
>
> The problem is that technological progress invalidates previous social
> constructs. For example, for a long time the concept of nation-state
> provided such a society. The concept of nation-state does not seem able to
> survive modern communication and transportation technologies. Things will
> only get weirder with VR and so on.
>
> What then?
>
>
>> This is in the constitution of human beings, induced by evolution if you
>> like, but it is there no doubt. suicide means that the person think
>> unconsciously that it can not contribute. we are very egoistic in the short
>> term, but in the long term we are like ants. this is too fast but I can
>> argue in detail about all of this
>>
>> 2015-04-20 0:04 GMT+02:00 LizR :
>>
>>> In my opinion extensive Dysonisation will only occur later in the
>>> stelliferous era - in the 100 trillion years when the galaxy (and the few
>>> others still visible in the far distance) glow rose-red from having a
>>> population exclusively made of stellar remnants and M class dwarfs. At this
>>> point some species may have made it through the "evolutionary heritage"
>>> bottleneck (have conquered the desire to consume endlessly and to wipe out
>>> rivals, I mean) - plus, it will be a lot more obvious that the universe's
>>> resources are running low, and conservation is in order.
>>>
>>> Riffing...
>>>
>>> --
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>>> Groups "Everything List" group.
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>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alberto.
>>
>> --
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Re: Where are they?

[meekerdb]

On 4/20/2015 3:51 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

/ once day by day survival is solved, people need a meaning./


If it works for them why is it your problem?



That is why modern people put his life at risk in extreme sports and so on: short term 
risk evade from existential vacuum.


2015-04-20 12:49 GMT+02:00 Alberto G. Corona >:


The amazing thing is how what would happen in 100 trillion years may 
preoccupy so
seriously to some people that would induce to suicide. Boltzman committed 
suicide in
part because his own theories of termodinamical dead of the universe more 
or less.



Nonsense.  He was in poor health and he had long suffered drastic swings in mood.  Today 
he would be diagnosed as bipolar.  He also had reason to be  depressed because his ideas 
were rejected on the Continent.  They were considered crazy because it was obviously 
impossible to derive irreversible processes from reversible physics.




Other people are influenced equally hard, but unconsciously by very long 
term
perspectives that are beyond his own timespan.

And this tells something very important about the human condition: once day 
by day
survival is solved, people need a meaning. that means that he need to live 
in a
society with a plan and to work for this plan, which is a kind of 
salvation. This is
in the constitution of human beings, induced by evolution if you like, but 
it is
there no doubt. suicide means that the person think unconsciously that it 
can not
contribute.



Yes, I think that is more accurate than suicide over thermodynamics.  Boltzmann's 
successor Paul Ehrenfest also committed suicide and also suffered severe depression.  
Ehrenfest was always very critical of himself.  After arranging for the care of his other 
children, he shot his Down syndrome son and then himself.


Brent

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Re: Where are they?

[Telmo Menezes]

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Alberto G. Corona 
wrote:

> The amazing thing is how what would happen in 100 trillion years may
> preoccupy so seriously to some people that would induce to suicide.
> Boltzman committed suicide in part because his own theories of
> termodinamical dead of the universe more or less.
>
> Other people are influenced equally hard, but unconsciously by very long
> term perspectives that are beyond his own timespan.
>
> And this tells something very important about the human condition: once
> day by day survival is solved, people need a meaning. that means that he
> need to live in a society with a plan and to work for this plan, which is a
> kind of salvation.
>

I agree with this.

The problem is that technological progress invalidates previous social
constructs. For example, for a long time the concept of nation-state
provided such a society. The concept of nation-state does not seem able to
survive modern communication and transportation technologies. Things will
only get weirder with VR and so on.

What then?


> This is in the constitution of human beings, induced by evolution if you
> like, but it is there no doubt. suicide means that the person think
> unconsciously that it can not contribute. we are very egoistic in the short
> term, but in the long term we are like ants. this is too fast but I can
> argue in detail about all of this
>
> 2015-04-20 0:04 GMT+02:00 LizR :
>
>> In my opinion extensive Dysonisation will only occur later in the
>> stelliferous era - in the 100 trillion years when the galaxy (and the few
>> others still visible in the far distance) glow rose-red from having a
>> population exclusively made of stellar remnants and M class dwarfs. At this
>> point some species may have made it through the "evolutionary heritage"
>> bottleneck (have conquered the desire to consume endlessly and to wipe out
>> rivals, I mean) - plus, it will be a lot more obvious that the universe's
>> resources are running low, and conservation is in order.
>>
>> Riffing...
>>
>> --
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Alberto.
>
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Re: Where are they?

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

Boltzmann will return as a Boltzmann Brain. Nietzsche, screams from the grave, 
"Ach! the Eternal Return!, but you will not remember your previous existence!" 
If you hold, as Tegmark and Lloyd say, that under the universe are programs, 
then Boltzmann and Nietzsche  will likely re-exist, or maybe already re-exist 
somewhere else, or both. The identity issue rears its lovely head once again. 
"Ach du liber Augustine," says Nietzsche, this must be why I am here still?" 
John Hick smiles at Nietzsche, say, "Us replicas must stick together." Elvis 
just sneers onward.  
 
-Original Message-
From: Alberto G. Corona 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Mon, Apr 20, 2015 6:50 am
Subject: Re: Where are they?


 
The amazing thing is how what would happen in 100 trillion years may preoccupy 
so seriously to some people that would induce to suicide. Boltzman committed 
suicide in part because his own theories of termodinamical dead of the universe 
more or less.   
   
  
  
Other people are influenced equally hard, but unconsciously by very long term 
perspectives that are beyond his own timespan.  
  
   
  
  
And this tells something very important about the human condition: once day by 
day survival is solved, people need a meaning. that means that he need to live 
in a society with a plan and to work for this plan, which is a kind of 
salvation. This is in the constitution of human beings, induced by evolution if 
you like, but it is there no doubt. suicide means that the person think 
unconsciously that it can not contribute. we are very egoistic in the short 
term, but in the long term we are like ants. this is too fast but I can argue 
in detail about all of this  
 
 
  
  
2015-04-20 0:04 GMT+02:00 LizR:   
   

In my opinion extensive Dysonisation will only occur later in the stelliferous 
era - in the 100 trillion years when the galaxy (and the few others still 
visible in the far distance) glow rose-red from having a population exclusively 
made of stellar remnants and M class dwarfs. At this point some species may 
have made it through the "evolutionary heritage" bottleneck (have conquered the 
desire to consume endlessly and to wipe out rivals, I mean) - plus, it will be 
a lot more obvious that the universe's resources are running low, and 
conservation is in order. 
 
  
  
Riffing...  
 


 
   
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Re: Where are they?

[Alberto G. Corona]

* once day by day survival is solved, people need a meaning.*

That is why modern people put his life at risk in extreme sports and so on:
short term risk evade from existential vacuum.

2015-04-20 12:49 GMT+02:00 Alberto G. Corona :

> The amazing thing is how what would happen in 100 trillion years may
> preoccupy so seriously to some people that would induce to suicide.
> Boltzman committed suicide in part because his own theories of
> termodinamical dead of the universe more or less.
>
> Other people are influenced equally hard, but unconsciously by very long
> term perspectives that are beyond his own timespan.
>
> And this tells something very important about the human condition: once
> day by day survival is solved, people need a meaning. that means that he
> need to live in a society with a plan and to work for this plan, which is a
> kind of salvation. This is in the constitution of human beings, induced by
> evolution if you like, but it is there no doubt. suicide means that the
> person think unconsciously that it can not contribute. we are very egoistic
> in the short term, but in the long term we are like ants. this is too fast
> but I can argue in detail about all of this
>
> 2015-04-20 0:04 GMT+02:00 LizR :
>
>> In my opinion extensive Dysonisation will only occur later in the
>> stelliferous era - in the 100 trillion years when the galaxy (and the few
>> others still visible in the far distance) glow rose-red from having a
>> population exclusively made of stellar remnants and M class dwarfs. At this
>> point some species may have made it through the "evolutionary heritage"
>> bottleneck (have conquered the desire to consume endlessly and to wipe out
>> rivals, I mean) - plus, it will be a lot more obvious that the universe's
>> resources are running low, and conservation is in order.
>>
>> Riffing...
>>
>> --
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Alberto.
>



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Re: Where are they?

[Alberto G. Corona]

The amazing thing is how what would happen in 100 trillion years may
preoccupy so seriously to some people that would induce to suicide.
Boltzman committed suicide in part because his own theories of
termodinamical dead of the universe more or less.

Other people are influenced equally hard, but unconsciously by very long
term perspectives that are beyond his own timespan.

And this tells something very important about the human condition: once day
by day survival is solved, people need a meaning. that means that he need
to live in a society with a plan and to work for this plan, which is a kind
of salvation. This is in the constitution of human beings, induced by
evolution if you like, but it is there no doubt. suicide means that the
person think unconsciously that it can not contribute. we are very egoistic
in the short term, but in the long term we are like ants. this is too fast
but I can argue in detail about all of this

2015-04-20 0:04 GMT+02:00 LizR :

> In my opinion extensive Dysonisation will only occur later in the
> stelliferous era - in the 100 trillion years when the galaxy (and the few
> others still visible in the far distance) glow rose-red from having a
> population exclusively made of stellar remnants and M class dwarfs. At this
> point some species may have made it through the "evolutionary heritage"
> bottleneck (have conquered the desire to consume endlessly and to wipe out
> rivals, I mean) - plus, it will be a lot more obvious that the universe's
> resources are running low, and conservation is in order.
>
> Riffing...
>
> --
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> "Everything List" group.
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>



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Re: Where are they?

[LizR]

In my opinion extensive Dysonisation will only occur later in the
stelliferous era - in the 100 trillion years when the galaxy (and the few
others still visible in the far distance) glow rose-red from having a
population exclusively made of stellar remnants and M class dwarfs. At this
point some species may have made it through the "evolutionary heritage"
bottleneck (have conquered the desire to consume endlessly and to wipe out
rivals, I mean) - plus, it will be a lot more obvious that the universe's
resources are running low, and conservation is in order.

Riffing...

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Re: Where are they?

[LizR]

Some colourless green ideas on a similar subject... "we are racing towards
a precipice"

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/29706-noam-chomsky-us-responsible-for-qworst-terrorist-campaign-in-the-world-by-farq

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RE: Where are they?

['Chris de Morsella' via Everything List]

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR

 

The Fermi paradox gets sharper.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1504.03418

This makes it even more important that we don’t blow it on our own little 
world. Or perhaps it is evidence that *we are going to blow it* just like every 
other species has on every other star that has developed intelligence. Our 
current race towards global war certainly seems to indicate that the second 
hypothesis has merit.

Why have we failed to detect any signs of civilization outside of our own 
earth? 

On the one hand we have only looked at a very few stars (for short periods of 
time), but surveys such as this seem to indicate either that civilization 
either does not go down the road of maximum energy use within its host galaxy; 
hence no signature, or that no such civilization exists (though they did 
suggest a few galaxies worth further study)

Perhaps at some level of intelligence  growth in energy consumption no longer 
appeals. Why assume that a super advanced civilization would go down the route  
of creating Dyson spheres around every star in its galaxy, which is what the 
study was surveying for. Perhaps at some level of intelligence other things 
become more important than consuming more and more energy to effect the 
physical world through the application of energy. I have a few observations 
about the study: it  did not eliminate civilizations that transformed under 50% 
of the stars in their galaxy into dyson spheres. I am thinking that a galactic 
scale civilization might refrain from scaling out to complete Dysonization of 
its galaxy for esthetic reasons for example. If say they had transformed the 
most promising 10% of the stars in a galaxy into dyson spheres that would still 
be a huge number of such mega-energy-producing engines, generating 
unconceivable amounts of power. Why would any civilization need more than ay 20 
billion Dyson sphere in its domain? That would be 10% in a galaxy with 200 
billion stars in it.

Even a single dyson sphere is a mind boggling amount of energy. 20 billionn 
such spheres prinkled around the galaxy is 20 billion times more mind boggling. 
I think it is fair to question the assumption that a civilization would even 
want to blink out every star in the sky in order to maximize the usable energy 
yield from those suns.

Purely riffing on a speculative vein here… 

Chris

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