Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 12:29:18AM -0500, Jason Resch wrote: Stephen, I don't know of this woman's account is anything like Bruno's experience or not. I believe she still experiences a stream of consciousness, but her visual sense is devoid of movement. She experiences only static frames: One patient, LM, described pouring a cup of tea or coffee difficult because the fluid appeared to be frozen, like a glacier.[5]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akinetopsia#cite_note-LM-4 She did not know when to stop pouring, because she could not perceive the movement of the fluid rising. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akinetopsia Jason This wouldn't contradict TIME, which only says that percieved psychological time should be a timescale (a mathematical term). Discrete time, such as that reported by LM above is still a valid timescale. Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode
On 9/10/2012 1:29 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Stephen, I don't know of this woman's account is anything like Bruno's experience or not. I believe she still experiences a stream of consciousness, but her visual sense is devoid of movement. She experiences only static frames: One patient, LM, described pouring a cup of tea or coffee difficult because the fluid appeared to be frozen, like a glacier.^[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akinetopsia#cite_note-LM-4 She did not know when to stop pouring, because she could not perceive the movement of the fluid rising. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akinetopsia Jason i Jason, Isn't that exactly what I described? If you instantly forget what you experience, and yet the act of experiencing moves on... What is that like? On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 11:34 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net mailto:stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 9/10/2012 12:28 AM, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Sep 07, 2012 at 07:24:02AM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote: Dear Bruno, Could you explain a bit more what the experience of being conscious in a completely atemporal mode was like? Where you aware of any kind of change in your environment? Was one's internal narrative (of external events) silent? I have always suspected that subjective time might be a result of self-consciousness but have not had any way of discussing the idea coherently. If we stipulate that subjective time is a form of noticing that one is noticing changes (a second order aspect) in one's environment, then this would fall into being a result of self-consciousness (which is obviously a second order effect at least to me). I have debated this idea before on this List with Russell Standish but we didn't seem to reach any definite conclusion. Your proposition is basically what my TIME postulate is all about. What Bruno is suggesting is that the smoking of certain plants induces a conscious state that contradicts TIME. I'm not prepared at this stage to follow in his footsteps, so have to simply take his observations (and of others in the Salvia forum) on face value. I do not know how TIME may be modified to reconcile it with this observation, yet remain in place for the deduction of quantum mechanics. Cheers Hi Russell, Perhaps what happens under these conditions is that the second order aspect is not measured and thus not observed. This would have the effect of making the passage of event into a continuous flow where we don't feel that change is happening at all. It would be like watching a clock and not noticing difference from the past positions of the hands; one would just be continuously in the moment of the position at the time. This would indicate an action of short term memory. -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode
Hi Russell Standish My experience of meditation or even sleeping is that as you go into that state, in which consciousness diminishes, (subjective) time passes faster and faster, until at the deepest level, time passes instantly. Instant passage of time might be construed by some to be atemporal. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/10/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Russell Standish Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-10, 03:10:51 Subject: Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 12:29:18AM -0500, Jason Resch wrote: Stephen, I don't know of this woman's account is anything like Bruno's experience or not. I believe she still experiences a stream of consciousness, but her visual sense is devoid of movement. She experiences only static frames: One patient, LM, described pouring a cup of tea or coffee difficult because the fluid appeared to be frozen, like a glacier.[5]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akinetopsia#cite_note-LM-4 She did not know when to stop pouring, because she could not perceive the movement of the fluid rising. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akinetopsia Jason This wouldn't contradict TIME, which only says that percieved psychological time should be a timescale (a mathematical term). Discrete time, such as that reported by LM above is still a valid timescale. Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode
On Sep 10, 2012, at 6:23 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 9/10/2012 1:29 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Stephen, I don't know of this woman's account is anything like Bruno's experience or not. I believe she still experiences a stream of consciousness, but her visual sense is devoid of movement. She experiences only static frames: One patient, LM, described pouring a cup of tea or coffee difficult because the fluid appeared to be frozen, like a glacier.[5] She did not know when to stop pouring, because she could not perceive the movement of the fluid rising. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akinetopsia Jason i Jason, Isn't that exactly what I described? If you instantly forget what you experience, and yet the act of experiencing moves on... What is that like? It may be. Whatever adds the perception of motion is something extra the brain is doing, so it could be a second order comparison of one state against previous states, as you suggested. Jason On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 11:34 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 9/10/2012 12:28 AM, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Sep 07, 2012 at 07:24:02AM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote: Dear Bruno, Could you explain a bit more what the experience of being conscious in a completely atemporal mode was like? Where you aware of any kind of change in your environment? Was one's internal narrative (of external events) silent? I have always suspected that subjective time might be a result of self-consciousness but have not had any way of discussing the idea coherently. If we stipulate that subjective time is a form of noticing that one is noticing changes (a second order aspect) in one's environment, then this would fall into being a result of self-consciousness (which is obviously a second order effect at least to me). I have debated this idea before on this List with Russell Standish but we didn't seem to reach any definite conclusion. Your proposition is basically what my TIME postulate is all about. What Bruno is suggesting is that the smoking of certain plants induces a conscious state that contradicts TIME. I'm not prepared at this stage to follow in his footsteps, so have to simply take his observations (and of others in the Salvia forum) on face value. I do not know how TIME may be modified to reconcile it with this observation, yet remain in place for the deduction of quantum mechanics. Cheers Hi Russell, Perhaps what happens under these conditions is that the second order aspect is not measured and thus not observed. This would have the effect of making the passage of event into a continuous flow where we don't feel that change is happening at all. It would be like watching a clock and not noticing difference from the past positions of the hands; one would just be continuously in the moment of the position at the time. This would indicate an action of short term memory. -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode
On 10 Sep 2012, at 06:28, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Sep 07, 2012 at 07:24:02AM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote: Dear Bruno, Could you explain a bit more what the experience of being conscious in a completely atemporal mode was like? Where you aware of any kind of change in your environment? Was one's internal narrative (of external events) silent? I have always suspected that subjective time might be a result of self-consciousness but have not had any way of discussing the idea coherently. If we stipulate that subjective time is a form of noticing that one is noticing changes (a second order aspect) in one's environment, then this would fall into being a result of self-consciousness (which is obviously a second order effect at least to me). I have debated this idea before on this List with Russell Standish but we didn't seem to reach any definite conclusion. Your proposition is basically what my TIME postulate is all about. What Bruno is suggesting is that the smoking of certain plants induces a conscious state that contradicts TIME. I'm not prepared at this stage to follow in his footsteps, so have to simply take his observations (and of others in the Salvia forum) on face value. I do not know how TIME may be modified to reconcile it with this observation, yet remain in place for the deduction of quantum mechanics. OK. But with comp, such a time might be either the steps of the UD in arithmetic, or anything implied from the 0, 1, 2, 3, ... static ordering. This is similar to the block idea in physics, except that it is a block mindscape instaed of a block physical-universe. Such structure are infinite and third person describable. But the going out of time in the salvia reports are first person apprehension of no time, and that is admittedly very weird, even for an hallucination. It might even contradict comp. This wouldn't contradict TIME, which only says that percieved psychological time should be a timescale (a mathematical term). Discrete time, such as that reported by LM above is still a valid timescale. Yes, that is the reason why we don't need more that the order on the natural number, defined by x y iff Ez(x+z = y). Of course, the going out of time does not play any role, in what is derived from comp. Just a data, which might one day lead to a refutation of comp, unless we find a way to make sense of it. It needs perhaps, as I am suggesting since recently the fact that consciousness can apply to the universal non Löbian machine, in a highly disconnected way. The experience out of time might be a generalization of the LM case, but it is hard to know, as when you are there, nothing is static, as static still refer to time. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 07:45:04AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Russell Standish My experience of meditation or even sleeping is that as you go into that state, in which consciousness diminishes, (subjective) time passes faster and faster, until at the deepest level, time passes instantly. Instant passage of time might be construed by some to be atemporal. Instant passage of time strikes me as a discontinuity. Just like when you're asleep (and not dreaming). But timescales do not need to be continuous sets, so this doesn't pose a problem for TIME. IIUC, the experience of Salvia is rather different, but then I can't speak from experience. -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode
On Fri, Sep 07, 2012 at 07:24:02AM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote: Dear Bruno, Could you explain a bit more what the experience of being conscious in a completely atemporal mode was like? Where you aware of any kind of change in your environment? Was one's internal narrative (of external events) silent? I have always suspected that subjective time might be a result of self-consciousness but have not had any way of discussing the idea coherently. If we stipulate that subjective time is a form of noticing that one is noticing changes (a second order aspect) in one's environment, then this would fall into being a result of self-consciousness (which is obviously a second order effect at least to me). I have debated this idea before on this List with Russell Standish but we didn't seem to reach any definite conclusion. Your proposition is basically what my TIME postulate is all about. What Bruno is suggesting is that the smoking of certain plants induces a conscious state that contradicts TIME. I'm not prepared at this stage to follow in his footsteps, so have to simply take his observations (and of others in the Salvia forum) on face value. I do not know how TIME may be modified to reconcile it with this observation, yet remain in place for the deduction of quantum mechanics. Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode
On 9/10/2012 12:28 AM, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Sep 07, 2012 at 07:24:02AM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote: Dear Bruno, Could you explain a bit more what the experience of being conscious in a completely atemporal mode was like? Where you aware of any kind of change in your environment? Was one's internal narrative (of external events) silent? I have always suspected that subjective time might be a result of self-consciousness but have not had any way of discussing the idea coherently. If we stipulate that subjective time is a form of noticing that one is noticing changes (a second order aspect) in one's environment, then this would fall into being a result of self-consciousness (which is obviously a second order effect at least to me). I have debated this idea before on this List with Russell Standish but we didn't seem to reach any definite conclusion. Your proposition is basically what my TIME postulate is all about. What Bruno is suggesting is that the smoking of certain plants induces a conscious state that contradicts TIME. I'm not prepared at this stage to follow in his footsteps, so have to simply take his observations (and of others in the Salvia forum) on face value. I do not know how TIME may be modified to reconcile it with this observation, yet remain in place for the deduction of quantum mechanics. Cheers Hi Russell, Perhaps what happens under these conditions is that the second order aspect is not measured and thus not observed. This would have the effect of making the passage of event into a continuous flow where we don't feel that change is happening at all. It would be like watching a clock and not noticing difference from the past positions of the hands; one would just be continuously in the moment of the position at the time. This would indicate an action of short term memory. -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode
Stephen, I don't know of this woman's account is anything like Bruno's experience or not. I believe she still experiences a stream of consciousness, but her visual sense is devoid of movement. She experiences only static frames: One patient, LM, described pouring a cup of tea or coffee difficult because the fluid appeared to be frozen, like a glacier.[5]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akinetopsia#cite_note-LM-4 She did not know when to stop pouring, because she could not perceive the movement of the fluid rising. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akinetopsia Jason On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 11:34 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 9/10/2012 12:28 AM, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Sep 07, 2012 at 07:24:02AM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote: Dear Bruno, Could you explain a bit more what the experience of being conscious in a completely atemporal mode was like? Where you aware of any kind of change in your environment? Was one's internal narrative (of external events) silent? I have always suspected that subjective time might be a result of self-consciousness but have not had any way of discussing the idea coherently. If we stipulate that subjective time is a form of noticing that one is noticing changes (a second order aspect) in one's environment, then this would fall into being a result of self-consciousness (which is obviously a second order effect at least to me). I have debated this idea before on this List with Russell Standish but we didn't seem to reach any definite conclusion. Your proposition is basically what my TIME postulate is all about. What Bruno is suggesting is that the smoking of certain plants induces a conscious state that contradicts TIME. I'm not prepared at this stage to follow in his footsteps, so have to simply take his observations (and of others in the Salvia forum) on face value. I do not know how TIME may be modified to reconcile it with this observation, yet remain in place for the deduction of quantum mechanics. Cheers Hi Russell, Perhaps what happens under these conditions is that the second order aspect is not measured and thus not observed. This would have the effect of making the passage of event into a continuous flow where we don't feel that change is happening at all. It would be like watching a clock and not noticing difference from the past positions of the hands; one would just be continuously in the moment of the position at the time. This would indicate an action of short term memory. -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/**stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.htmlhttp://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.**comeverything-list@googlegroups.com . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscribe@ **googlegroups.com everything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** group/everything-list?hl=enhttp://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode
On 07 Sep 2012, at 13:24, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/7/2012 2:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: It is a recent suggestion, corroborated by the salvia reports and experiences. I was used to agree with Brouwer that consciousness and subjective time are not separable, like the 1p logic examplifies (S4Grz is both a temporal logic, and the machine's 1p logic), but I am open to change my mind on this. We can hallucinate being conscious in a completely atemporal mode. I would not have believed this without living it, as it seems indeed to be a contradiction from the usual mundane state of consciousness. But it makes sense in arithmetic, or for the consciousness of the universal non Löbian machine. Apparently, subjective time might be a result of self-consciousness, and not just consciousness. This makes consciousness a bit more primitive than I thought indeed. Dear Bruno, Could you explain a bit more what the experience of being conscious in a completely atemporal mode was like? Where you aware of any kind of change in your environment? Was one's internal narrative (of external events) silent? Unfortunately I cannot explain. In that state the notion of environment does not make sense, and there are no narrative possible, as you don't even know what is language, words, persons, ... It might be like being a two days old embryo. You are conscious, and that's all. You are not conscious of something, just conscious, and nothing else exists or make sense. I have always suspected that subjective time might be a result of self-consciousness but have not had any way of discussing the idea coherently. If we stipulate that subjective time is a form of noticing that one is noticing changes (a second order aspect) in one's environment, then this would fall into being a result of self- consciousness (which is obviously a second order effect at least to me). OK. Here Bp p is nice as it provides simultaneously a theory of the first person logic, and a temporal logic, so the idea of time might be a product of the self. But consciousness might still be something deeper. Bruno I have debated this idea before on this List with Russell Standish but we didn't seem to reach any definite conclusion. -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode
On 9/7/2012 2:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: It is a recent suggestion, corroborated by the salvia reports and experiences. I was used to agree with Brouwer that consciousness and subjective time are not separable, like the 1p logic examplifies (S4Grz is both a temporal logic, and the machine's 1p logic), but I am open to change my mind on this. We can hallucinate being conscious in a completely atemporal mode. I would not have believed this without living it, as it seems indeed to be a contradiction from the usual mundane state of consciousness. But it makes sense in arithmetic, or for the consciousness of the universal non Löbian machine. Apparently, subjective time might be a result of self-consciousness, and not just consciousness. This makes consciousness a bit more primitive than I thought indeed. Dear Bruno, Could you explain a bit more what the experience of being conscious in a completely atemporal mode was like? Where you aware of any kind of change in your environment? Was one's internal narrative (of external events) silent? I have always suspected that subjective time might be a result of self-consciousness but have not had any way of discussing the idea coherently. If we stipulate that subjective time is a form of noticing that one is noticing changes (a second order aspect) in one's environment, then this would fall into being a result of self-consciousness (which is obviously a second order effect at least to me). I have debated this idea before on this List with Russell Standish but we didn't seem to reach any definite conclusion. -- Onward! Stephen http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
