Re: the character of the god of comp
On 19 Feb 2013, at 23:19, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:47 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:03 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. You're just making this up. I'm not. Look in the universal dovetailer and you will find such intelligent processes with unlimited memory and processing at their disposal, in fact you will find an infinite number of them. The evidence is that smarter people tend to have fewer children and so evolution doesn't necessary favor intelligence. It is also quite possible that evolution always leads to a stage of species growth which so exploits the environment of its planet that is goes extinct within a few hundred thousand years. I don't see how this is an argument against my assertion that there exist intelligences with infinite computational resources (assuming arithmetical realism). The physics of holographic universes suggest that computations are limited by the number of bits of information available for computation. At present the limit appears to be 10^120 bits, the so-called Lloyd limit, and with future prospects of less than 10^122 bits based on the cosmology constant (or Dark Energy). Richard That argument can make sense in some non-comp theory, but does not if you assume comp. We don't assume a primary universe, only arithmetic which contains all emulations of all computations. The physical appearances come from it, viewed from inside. Your remark is interesting, but don't make Jason's point invalid. Local computational bounds have to be explain from arithmetic. Bruno They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same data (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter. Thus, despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes towards infinity. With infinite computational power, these God-like super intelligences have the power to save other beings (regardless of what universe the other being hails from). These God-minds are in a position to help, and thus responsible for the outcome if they fail to act. There is much suffering of conscious beings in the physical universes. With infinite computing power at their disposal, these super intelligences can determine re- create any conscious being from the moment of its physical death and ressurect it to a existence of that being's desires. This is not to say this is what they would do, but if it is the right decision to make, then nearly all super-intelligences will agree it is the right thing to do and will do it. Right by whose measure? Right according to the minds of the super intelligences. It is said when intelligent people disagree it is due to a difference in data. Well these intelligences have access to all the same mathematical truth. If you define intelligence as the probability of being correct on any given question, then super intelligent entities ought to always agree, on questions of math, theories of mind, theology, morality, what's right and what's wrong, etc. If God doesn't love me and mine why should I care what he loves? Maybe those God(s) do love you. When people talk about God-minds deciding what is right I reach for my gun. That's nice, but it doesn't really add anything to this debate. In this sense, there can be a anthropomorphic character to mathematical truth, which comes into existence an infinite number of times and ways but in most appearances, behaves similarly to all its other incarnations. Brent Peter: What would you say if I told you that the universe is the creation of an all powerful, all knowing being, who commands our obedience and worship. Curls: I'd say you were about to take up a collection. --- Johnny Hart, in B.C. You are clearly prejudiced
Re: the character of the god of comp
On 2/20/2013 1:08 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net mailto:stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 2/19/2013 8:08 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net mailto:stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 2/19/2013 12:26 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com mailto:yann...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 2:03 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same data (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter. Thus, despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes towards infinity. If our universe is holographic, the computational resources are limited to the Lloyd Limit of 10^120 bits, with a maximum possible 10^122 bits Ref: http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0602/0602420.pdf I was not proposing that our universe could support infinite computational resources, but that some other universes might, and intelligent beings/civilizations in those universes are unbounded. Jason -- Hi Jason, Would you care to speculate whether or not those demi-gods (in other universes that have access to infinite resources) would have Platonist theories of mathematics? Any question to me of the form Do I think the demi-gods will believe X, boils down to Do I think X is correct?. I think you know where I stand on Platonist theories of mathematics. Whether or not the demi-gods also believe it mostly depends on whether its correct or if it has more credence than the other alternatives. Jason Hi Jason, It seems to me that the demi-gods would not be motivated to have Platonist-like ontologies. As I see things, only we of finite resources concoct such Platonist theories to give ourselves the illusion of superpowers to explain away the mysterious fact that we can understand mathematics. I have yet to see a neo-Platonist explain without hand-waving how it is that a physical brain can access knowledge from Platonia. I made such a proposal about 2 months ago in a thread titled How mathematical truth might enter our universe. You posted in the thread but never directly to my original post on the matter. Feel free to re-ignite that thread if you would like to discuss this topic further. Jason -- Hi Jason, Somehow I missed it. Here it is again for my comment. On 12/12/2012 11:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote: All, One of the questions in mathematics is where does mathematical truth come from, if it exists platonically, how does it manifest physically (e.g. as the utterances of mathematicians). I had a thought inspired by one of Roger's posts regarding cause and effect extending outside of spacetime. I thought, there is nothing preventing the goings on in this universe from having causal implications outside our universe. Consider that an advanced civilization might choose to simulate our universe and inspect it. Then when they observe what
Re: the character of the god of comp
On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 10:55 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 2/20/2013 1:08 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 2/19/2013 8:08 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 2/19/2013 12:26 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 2:03 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same data (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter. Thus, despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes towards infinity. If our universe is holographic, the computational resources are limited to the Lloyd Limit of 10^120 bits, with a maximum possible 10^122 bits Ref: http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0602/0602420.pdf I was not proposing that our universe could support infinite computational resources, but that some other universes might, and intelligent beings/civilizations in those universes are unbounded. Jason -- Hi Jason, Would you care to speculate whether or not those demi-gods (in other universes that have access to infinite resources) would have Platonist theories of mathematics? Any question to me of the form Do I think the demi-gods will believe X, boils down to Do I think X is correct?. I think you know where I stand on Platonist theories of mathematics. Whether or not the demi-gods also believe it mostly depends on whether its correct or if it has more credence than the other alternatives. Jason Hi Jason, It seems to me that the demi-gods would not be motivated to have Platonist-like ontologies. As I see things, only we of finite resources concoct such Platonist theories to give ourselves the illusion of superpowers to explain away the mysterious fact that we can understand mathematics. I have yet to see a neo-Platonist explain without hand-waving how it is that a physical brain can access knowledge from Platonia. I made such a proposal about 2 months ago in a thread titled How mathematical truth might enter our universe. You posted in the thread but never directly to my original post on the matter. Feel free to re-ignite that thread if you would like to discuss this topic further. Jason -- Hi Jason, Somehow I missed it. Here it is again for my comment. On 12/12/2012 11:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote: All, One of the questions in mathematics is where does mathematical truth come from, if it exists platonically, how does it manifest physically (e.g. as the utterances of mathematicians). I had a thought inspired by one of Roger's posts regarding cause and effect extending outside of spacetime. I thought, there is nothing preventing the goings on in this universe from having causal implications outside our universe. Consider that an advanced civilization might choose to simulate our universe and inspect it. Then when they observe what happens in our universe the observations generate causal effects in their own universe. The same applies to our universe, we might choose to observe another universe through simulation, and our discoveries or observations of that other universe change us. Thus, the various universes that can exist out there are more interconnected than we might suppose. Our universe is an open book to those universes possessing sufficient computational power to simulate it. Likewise, how simple universes like certain small instances of the game of life are open books to us. The possibilities of gliders in the GoL has led to many discussions about GoL gliders, their existence in the GoL universe has led to the manifestation of physical changes in our own universe. I think the
Re: the character of the god of comp
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 2:03 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same data (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter. Thus, despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes towards infinity. If our universe is holographic, the computational resources are limited to the Lloyd Limit of 10^120 bits, with a maximum possible 10^122 bits Ref: http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0602/0602420.pdf With infinite computational power, these God-like super intelligences have the power to save other beings (regardless of what universe the other being hails from). These God-minds are in a position to help, and thus responsible for the outcome if they fail to act. There is much suffering of conscious beings in the physical universes. With infinite computing power at their disposal, these super intelligences can determine re-create any conscious being from the moment of its physical death and ressurect it to a existence of that being's desires. This is not to say this is what they would do, but if it is the right decision to make, then nearly all super-intelligences will agree it is the right thing to do and will do it. In this sense, there can be a anthropomorphic character to mathematical truth, which comes into existence an infinite number of times and ways but in most appearances, behaves similarly to all its other incarnations. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On 18 Feb 2013, at 20:47, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? That it has a lot of imagination, is creative, and probably has some sense of humor. But none of this can be taken literally. Indeed, the notion of truth itself cannot be literal or defined with word, but we can know some part of it. And if we are machine, that is already the case for arithmetical truth (but keep in mind we cannot be sure of that). But that God has sense of humor belongs to G* - G. It is not communicable, and some suffering people can be led astray from God with remark like that. Only people understanding the joke can laugh, in private, for not despairing the others. I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. At the metalevel some things can be said, like when ZF develops the theology of a simpler Löbian machine like PA. What cannot be done by ZF is the lifting of that theology on herself, without adding the interrogation mark, and doing this in some private way. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. If we accept the God of comp, and come to see our experience as the view from the inside of a particular infinity of universal machines, then is there something to be said about what corners of arithmetical truth we must (or most probably) be in that can help us relate in a more personal sense to this god? Making God into a person, or a personal person, if I can say, is the role of the soul. It connects the representable beliefs with Truth. So, if someone is courageous enough to accept truth and be in peace with it, he will let God-alias-truth making his personal job at his place. But all that again cannot be made public. It is eventually something highly private (if not there is the risk of, willingly or unwillingly, transforming a terrestrial talk into an authoritative argument: the theological trap). So the personal relation with truth/ god is when you attempt to accept it, and let it, silently, drive you. I think it is something natural, but that has been hidden by the use/ misuse of languages, which leads to many sort of illusions, and truth- departure. That's why soul tends to fall from their universal roots. People believed that they can avoid truth, and some people can believe that their whole life. But that can lead to many problems for those living in their neighborhoods. A crude example question might be, if God did not have a sense of humor, could we exist? Ah! I see we agree that God has some sense of humor. Careful with this, because it could look like it might mean that we have some experience, of the type: fundamentally not communicable. Well, I don't know if we could exist without God having some sense of humor. You could substitute other characterizations for other questions. Given that we could in principle derive physics from the math of the UD - providing a (partial) answer to the measure problem - could we not also solve for the character of God? Not really, except at some meta-level, by saying that God's character is something that the soul might experience, like when near death, or when suffering, or when doing experiences related to truth and to illusions/desillusions. But nobody can't push people in that direction, as only them can hear and listen to the possible truth, if they want and are ready. I think Plotinus is right: God has no will other than the will of the Good willing people. Our connection with Truth is only through our attempt to acknowledge that our beliefs are wrong, when they are wrong. Eventually truth is simple, but it admits arbitrary long detours, which is nice to contemplate, but with the price of the dead end, and some possible hard time. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On 18 Feb 2013, at 22:18, meekerdb wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? If we accept the God of comp, See, Bruno, this is what your use of God language leads to. You protest that you're just making a scientific theory of what is fundamental - but already people are turning it back toward a guy with a beard in the clouds. Hmm... You might simplify too much what Terry said. And as I answered him, the relation between God (Truth) and the first person (True beliefs) , might give sense to some reasonable anthropomorphism, if not taking it too much literally. I will not ask you to rename Universe, despite when we use that term people begin to believe in Primary Nature and Stuff. Bruno Brent and come to see our experience as the view from the inside of a particular infinity of universal machines, then is there something to be said about what corners of arithmetical truth we must (or most probably) be in that can help us relate in a more personal sense to this god? A crude example question might be, if God did not have a sense of humor, could we exist? You could substitute other characterizations for other questions. Given that we could in principle derive physics from the math of the UD - providing a (partial) answer to the measure problem - could we not also solve for the character of God? Terren -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6110 - Release Date: 02/17/13 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On 19 Feb 2013, at 08:03, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same data (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter. Thus, despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes towards infinity. With infinite computational power, these God-like super intelligences have the power to save other beings (regardless of what universe the other being hails from). These God-minds are in a position to help, and thus responsible for the outcome if they fail to act. There is much suffering of conscious beings in the physical universes. With infinite computing power at their disposal, these super intelligences can determine re-create any conscious being from the moment of its physical death and ressurect it to a existence of that being's desires. This is not to say this is what they would do, but if it is the right decision to make, then nearly all super- intelligences will agree it is the right thing to do and will do it. In this sense, there can be a anthropomorphic character to mathematical truth, which comes into existence an infinite number of times and ways but in most appearances, behaves similarly to all its other incarnations. That's interesting and relate to the reflexion principle, and provide another answer to Brent. Even if the real God is not a person, it can remains something approachable by machines, but also by infinitely many entities between machines and arithmetical truth. And many of them can be proved to be Löbian, and so have a similar theology to the machine's one, except that their Gods are beyond arithmetical truth. There is no paradox, as it is the same Skolem principle at play (cf some older posts people can find by seraching skolem in the archive). In fact God is approximated by the knower of truth, like when looking at the arithmetical truth as the set of beliefs of some entity, instead as a big book of truth. God, that is arithmetical truth, does not belong to arithmetical truth, and still less to the tiny effective fragment of arithmetic (isomorphic to the UD*), so, like in Plotinus, God is really non- existing, but it is was make things existing, absolutely, like the numbers and programs, and relatively, like the universal machines and their dreams. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 2:03 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same data (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter. Thus, despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes towards infinity. If our universe is holographic, the computational resources are limited to the Lloyd Limit of 10^120 bits, with a maximum possible 10^122 bits Ref: http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0602/0602420.pdf I was not proposing that our universe could support infinite computational resources, but that some other universes might, and intelligent beings/civilizations in those universes are unbounded. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On 2/18/2013 11:03 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. You're just making this up. The evidence is that smarter people tend to have fewer children and so evolution doesn't necessary favor intelligence. It is also quite possible that evolution always leads to a stage of species growth which so exploits the environment of its planet that is goes extinct within a few hundred thousand years. They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same data (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter. Thus, despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes towards infinity. With infinite computational power, these God-like super intelligences have the power to save other beings (regardless of what universe the other being hails from). These God-minds are in a position to help, and thus responsible for the outcome if they fail to act. There is much suffering of conscious beings in the physical universes. With infinite computing power at their disposal, these super intelligences can determine re-create any conscious being from the moment of its physical death and ressurect it to a existence of that being's desires. This is not to say this is what they would do, but if it is the right decision to make, then nearly all super-intelligences will agree it is the right thing to do and will do it. Right by whose measure? If God doesn't love me and mine why should I care what he loves? When people talk about God-minds deciding what is right I reach for my gun. In this sense, there can be a anthropomorphic character to mathematical truth, which comes into existence an infinite number of times and ways but in most appearances, behaves similarly to all its other incarnations. Brent Peter: What would you say if I told you that the universe is the creation of an all powerful, all knowing being, who commands our obedience and worship. Curls: I'd say you were about to take up a collection. --- Johnny Hart, in B.C. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:47 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:03 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. You're just making this up. I'm not. Look in the universal dovetailer and you will find such intelligent processes with unlimited memory and processing at their disposal, in fact you will find an infinite number of them. The evidence is that smarter people tend to have fewer children and so evolution doesn't necessary favor intelligence. It is also quite possible that evolution always leads to a stage of species growth which so exploits the environment of its planet that is goes extinct within a few hundred thousand years. I don't see how this is an argument against my assertion that there exist intelligences with infinite computational resources (assuming arithmetical realism). They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same data (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter. Thus, despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes towards infinity. With infinite computational power, these God-like super intelligences have the power to save other beings (regardless of what universe the other being hails from). These God-minds are in a position to help, and thus responsible for the outcome if they fail to act. There is much suffering of conscious beings in the physical universes. With infinite computing power at their disposal, these super intelligences can determine re-create any conscious being from the moment of its physical death and ressurect it to a existence of that being's desires. This is not to say this is what they would do, but if it is the right decision to make, then nearly all super-intelligences will agree it is the right thing to do and will do it. Right by whose measure? Right according to the minds of the super intelligences. It is said when intelligent people disagree it is due to a difference in data. Well these intelligences have access to all the same mathematical truth. If you define intelligence as the probability of being correct on any given question, then super intelligent entities ought to always agree, on questions of math, theories of mind, theology, morality, what's right and what's wrong, etc. If God doesn't love me and mine why should I care what he loves? Maybe those God(s) do love you. When people talk about God-minds deciding what is right I reach for my gun. That's nice, but it doesn't really add anything to this debate. In this sense, there can be a anthropomorphic character to mathematical truth, which comes into existence an infinite number of times and ways but in most appearances, behaves similarly to all its other incarnations. Brent Peter: What would you say if I told you that the universe is the creation of an all powerful, all knowing being, who commands our obedience and worship. Curls: I'd say you were about to take up a collection. --- Johnny Hart, in B.C. You are clearly prejudiced against they theory which even has the whisper of what you associate with theories from some religions. In many cases, such prejudice might prove helpful but when science/logic lend support for theological theories this prejeduce becomes anti-scientific. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:47 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:03 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. You're just making this up. I'm not. Look in the universal dovetailer and you will find such intelligent processes with unlimited memory and processing at their disposal, in fact you will find an infinite number of them. The evidence is that smarter people tend to have fewer children and so evolution doesn't necessary favor intelligence. It is also quite possible that evolution always leads to a stage of species growth which so exploits the environment of its planet that is goes extinct within a few hundred thousand years. I don't see how this is an argument against my assertion that there exist intelligences with infinite computational resources (assuming arithmetical realism). The physics of holographic universes suggest that computations are limited by the number of bits of information available for computation. At present the limit appears to be 10^120 bits, the so-called Lloyd limit, and with future prospects of less than 10^122 bits based on the cosmology constant (or Dark Energy). Richard They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same data (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter. Thus, despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes towards infinity. With infinite computational power, these God-like super intelligences have the power to save other beings (regardless of what universe the other being hails from). These God-minds are in a position to help, and thus responsible for the outcome if they fail to act. There is much suffering of conscious beings in the physical universes. With infinite computing power at their disposal, these super intelligences can determine re-create any conscious being from the moment of its physical death and ressurect it to a existence of that being's desires. This is not to say this is what they would do, but if it is the right decision to make, then nearly all super-intelligences will agree it is the right thing to do and will do it. Right by whose measure? Right according to the minds of the super intelligences. It is said when intelligent people disagree it is due to a difference in data. Well these intelligences have access to all the same mathematical truth. If you define intelligence as the probability of being correct on any given question, then super intelligent entities ought to always agree, on questions of math, theories of mind, theology, morality, what's right and what's wrong, etc. If God doesn't love me and mine why should I care what he loves? Maybe those God(s) do love you. When people talk about God-minds deciding what is right I reach for my gun. That's nice, but it doesn't really add anything to this debate. In this sense, there can be a anthropomorphic character to mathematical truth, which comes into existence an infinite number of times and ways but in most appearances, behaves similarly to all its other incarnations. Brent Peter: What would you say if I told you that the universe is the creation of an all powerful, all knowing being, who commands our obedience and worship. Curls: I'd say you were about to take up a collection. --- Johnny Hart, in B.C. You are clearly prejudiced against they theory which even has the whisper of what you associate with theories from some religions. In many cases, such prejudice might prove helpful but when science/logic lend support for theological theories this prejeduce becomes anti-scientific. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
Re: the character of the god of comp
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:47 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:03 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. You're just making this up. I'm not. Look in the universal dovetailer and you will find such intelligent processes with unlimited memory and processing at their disposal, in fact you will find an infinite number of them. The evidence is that smarter people tend to have fewer children and so evolution doesn't necessary favor intelligence. It is also quite possible that evolution always leads to a stage of species growth which so exploits the environment of its planet that is goes extinct within a few hundred thousand years. I don't see how this is an argument against my assertion that there exist intelligences with infinite computational resources (assuming arithmetical realism). The physics of holographic universes suggest that computations are limited by the number of bits of information available for computation. At present the limit appears to be 10^120 bits, the so-called Lloyd limit, and with future prospects of less than 10^122 bits based on the cosmology constant (or Dark Energy). Richard Richard, I think you might have missed a key point of what I said, which was that these intelligences exist within comp, not within our own, possibly holographic, universe. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 5:57 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:47 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:03 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. You're just making this up. I'm not. Look in the universal dovetailer and you will find such intelligent processes with unlimited memory and processing at their disposal, in fact you will find an infinite number of them. The evidence is that smarter people tend to have fewer children and so evolution doesn't necessary favor intelligence. It is also quite possible that evolution always leads to a stage of species growth which so exploits the environment of its planet that is goes extinct within a few hundred thousand years. I don't see how this is an argument against my assertion that there exist intelligences with infinite computational resources (assuming arithmetical realism). The physics of holographic universes suggest that computations are limited by the number of bits of information available for computation. At present the limit appears to be 10^120 bits, the so-called Lloyd limit, and with future prospects of less than 10^122 bits based on the cosmology constant (or Dark Energy). Richard Richard, I think you might have missed a key point of what I said, which was that these intelligences exist within comp, not within our own, possibly holographic, universe. Jason So where is comp located In the relations between numbers as implied by certain facts of arithmetical truth. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On 2/19/2013 2:12 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:47 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:03 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. You're just making this up. I'm not. Look in the universal dovetailer and you will find such intelligent processes with unlimited memory and processing at their disposal, in fact you will find an infinite number of them. Ok, show me just one. The evidence is that smarter people tend to have fewer children and so evolution doesn't necessary favor intelligence. It is also quite possible that evolution always leads to a stage of species growth which so exploits the environment of its planet that is goes extinct within a few hundred thousand years. I don't see how this is an argument against my assertion that there exist intelligences with infinite computational resources (assuming arithmetical realism). Even assuming arithmetical realism physics and intelligence go together and they arise from evolution. You seem to be postulating God(s) in Platonia, not ones that can act here, they are just numbers and theorems. They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same data (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter. Thus, despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes towards infinity. With infinite computational power, these God-like super intelligences have the power to save other beings (regardless of what universe the other being hails from). These God-minds are in a position to help, and thus responsible for the outcome if they fail to act. There is much suffering of conscious beings in the physical universes. With infinite computing power at their disposal, these super intelligences can determine re-create any conscious being from the moment of its physical death and ressurect it to a existence of that being's desires. This is not to say this is what they would do, but if it is the right decision to make, then nearly all super-intelligences will agree it is the right thing to do and will do it. Right by whose measure? Right according to the minds of the super intelligences. It is said when intelligent people disagree it is due to a difference in data. A lot of things are said. Well these intelligences have access to all the same mathematical truth. If you define intelligence as the probability of being correct on any given question, then super intelligent entities ought to always agree, on questions of math, theories of mind, theology, morality, what's right and what's wrong, etc. If God doesn't love me and mine why should I care what he loves? Maybe those God(s) do love you. And maybe it/they hate you. When people talk about God-minds deciding what is right I reach for my gun. That's nice, but it doesn't really add anything to this debate. It points to the danger of invoking gods to do your ethical thinking for you. Theists always worry that without God there will be no absolute right and wrong. I worry that there will be. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 6:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/19/2013 2:12 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:47 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:03 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. You're just making this up. I'm not. Look in the universal dovetailer and you will find such intelligent processes with unlimited memory and processing at their disposal, in fact you will find an infinite number of them. Ok, show me just one. The program is too long to fit in your inbox. However, if you think that the biochemistry of the brain is Turing emulable, then there are programs which describe all the greatest geniuses who have ever lived: Leonardo, Tesla, Democritus, Newton, Euclid, Einstein, Von Neumann, Feynman, Ramanujan, Sidis, etc. It follows then that there is also a program emulating the interaction of all of them and all their productions and discoveries over a billion years, including perhaps their own tinkering and recursive self-improvement of their own intelligence once they develop a theory of the brain's function and operation. Now imagine all of this thought and discovery occurring every millisecond. Would that not be a super-intelligence process? You can always imagine a program that has X times more super geniuses, or operating Y times faster. The problem then becomes, to stimulate and improve these minds, you need a complex and rich enough environment to demand that greater intelligence, otherwise it will stagnate and become bored. Mathematics is that infinite font of ideas, relations, patterns, problems, etc. which is inexhaustible and has infinitely many levels of axiomatic systems. If super intelligences evolve from universes like ours (only with unlimited sources of energy / no upper limit on the communicate speed) no matter how rich their starting universe is, it will be boring compared to the unlimited richness of math, which is where they may inevitably turn their attentions. The evidence is that smarter people tend to have fewer children and so evolution doesn't necessary favor intelligence. It is also quite possible that evolution always leads to a stage of species growth which so exploits the environment of its planet that is goes extinct within a few hundred thousand years. I don't see how this is an argument against my assertion that there exist intelligences with infinite computational resources (assuming arithmetical realism). Even assuming arithmetical realism physics and intelligence go together and they arise from evolution. You seem to be postulating God(s) in Platonia, not ones that can act here, they are just numbers and theorems. These demi-gods cannot change what happens in other branches and subsections of the UD, but they can resume/continue/recreate occurrences and beings from other parts of the UDA into their own part. E.g., let's say a demi-god was exploring one particular part of the UD and noticed some life form was about to experience a painful death. The demi-god might decide to instantiate 5 incarnations of that being in that same moment and thus provide an 80% chance that the being survives and does not experience that painful death. Or perhaps, right at the instant of that being's death, provides a continuation path such that the being has a 100% chance of continuing in that demi-god's domain of control. They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same data (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter. Thus, despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes towards infinity. With infinite computational power, these God-like super intelligences have the power to save other beings (regardless of what universe the other being hails from). These God-minds are in a position to help, and thus responsible for the outcome if they fail to act. There is much
Re: the character of the god of comp
On 2/19/2013 12:26 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com mailto:yann...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 2:03 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same data (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter. Thus, despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes towards infinity. If our universe is holographic, the computational resources are limited to the Lloyd Limit of 10^120 bits, with a maximum possible 10^122 bits Ref: http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0602/0602420.pdf I was not proposing that our universe could support infinite computational resources, but that some other universes might, and intelligent beings/civilizations in those universes are unbounded. Jason -- Hi Jason, Would you care to speculate whether or not those demi-gods (in other universes that have access to infinite resources) would have Platonist theories of mathematics? -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 2/19/2013 12:26 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 2:03 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same data (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter. Thus, despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes towards infinity. If our universe is holographic, the computational resources are limited to the Lloyd Limit of 10^120 bits, with a maximum possible 10^122 bits Ref: http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0602/0602420.pdf I was not proposing that our universe could support infinite computational resources, but that some other universes might, and intelligent beings/civilizations in those universes are unbounded. Jason -- Hi Jason, Would you care to speculate whether or not those demi-gods (in other universes that have access to infinite resources) would have Platonist theories of mathematics? Any question to me of the form Do I think the demi-gods will believe X, boils down to Do I think X is correct?. I think you know where I stand on Platonist theories of mathematics. Whether or not the demi-gods also believe it mostly depends on whether its correct or if it has more credence than the other alternatives. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On 2/19/2013 4:54 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 6:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/19/2013 2:12 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:47 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:03 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. You're just making this up. I'm not. Look in the universal dovetailer and you will find such intelligent processes with unlimited memory and processing at their disposal, in fact you will find an infinite number of them. Ok, show me just one. The program is too long to fit in your inbox. However, if you think that the biochemistry of the brain is Turing emulable, then there are programs which describe all the greatest geniuses who have ever lived: Leonardo, Tesla, Democritus, Newton, Euclid, Einstein, Von Neumann, Feynman, Ramanujan, Sidis, etc. It follows then that there is also a program emulating the interaction of all of them and all their productions and discoveries over a billion years, You seem to forget that Einstein wasted his later years looking for a classical TOE, Newton spent his time writing commentaries on the bible, Tesla became a crank,... Being a genius and living a long time doesn't mean you get more good ideas. And interaction doesn't necessarily improve IQ, as anyone who has sat in management meetings can attest. including perhaps their own tinkering and recursive self-improvement of their own intelligence once they develop a theory of the brain's function and operation. Now imagine all of this thought and discovery occurring every millisecond. Would that not be a super-intelligence process? You can always imagine a program that has X times more super geniuses, or operating Y times faster. Imagining doesn't make it so. The problem then becomes, to stimulate Stimulation depends on the being having motivation. Humans have motivations provided by evolution. But you're imagining some kind of immaterial minds who are motivated by pure mathematical curiosity - in which case they're not going to care about you. and improve these minds, you need a complex and rich enough environment to demand that greater intelligence, otherwise it will stagnate and become bored. Mathematics is that infinite font of ideas, relations, patterns, problems, etc. which is inexhaustible and has infinitely many levels of axiomatic systems. If super intelligences evolve from universes like ours You haven't explained how natural selection is going to favor the superintelligent when it doesn't even favor the intelligent here and now. (only with unlimited sources of energy / no upper limit on the communicate speed) no matter how rich their starting universe is, it will be boring compared to the unlimited richness of math, which is where they may inevitably turn their attentions. The evidence is that smarter people tend to have fewer children and so evolution doesn't necessary favor intelligence. It is also quite possible that evolution always leads to a stage of species growth which so exploits the environment of its planet that is goes extinct within a few hundred thousand years. I don't see how this is an argument against my assertion that there exist intelligences with infinite computational resources (assuming arithmetical realism). Even assuming arithmetical realism physics and intelligence go together and they arise from evolution. You seem to be postulating God(s) in Platonia, not ones that can act here, they are just numbers and theorems. These demi-gods cannot change what happens in other branches and subsections of the UD, What 'branches'? Have you solved the problem of the appearance of the quasi-classical world? but they can resume/continue/recreate occurrences and beings from other parts of the UDA into their own part. E.g.,
Re: the character of the god of comp
On 2/19/2013 5:22 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Jason, It seems to me that the demi-gods would not be motivated to have Platonist-like ontologies. As I see things, only we of finite resources concoct such Platonist theories to give ourselves the illusion of superpowers All it takes is the ability to write ... ;-) Brent to explain away the mysterious fact that we can understand mathematics. I have yet to see a neo-Platonist explain without hand-waving how it is that a physical brain can access knowledge from Platonia. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On 2/19/2013 11:16 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 2/19/2013 5:22 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Jason, It seems to me that the demi-gods would not be motivated to have Platonist-like ontologies. As I see things, only we of finite resources concoct such Platonist theories to give ourselves the illusion of superpowers All it takes is the ability to write ... ;-) Brent *and* imagine that it truly goes on forever... -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 2/19/2013 8:08 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 2/19/2013 12:26 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 2:03 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same data (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter. Thus, despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes towards infinity. If our universe is holographic, the computational resources are limited to the Lloyd Limit of 10^120 bits, with a maximum possible 10^122 bits Ref: http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0602/0602420.pdf I was not proposing that our universe could support infinite computational resources, but that some other universes might, and intelligent beings/civilizations in those universes are unbounded. Jason -- Hi Jason, Would you care to speculate whether or not those demi-gods (in other universes that have access to infinite resources) would have Platonist theories of mathematics? Any question to me of the form Do I think the demi-gods will believe X, boils down to Do I think X is correct?. I think you know where I stand on Platonist theories of mathematics. Whether or not the demi-gods also believe it mostly depends on whether its correct or if it has more credence than the other alternatives. Jason Hi Jason, It seems to me that the demi-gods would not be motivated to have Platonist-like ontologies. As I see things, only we of finite resources concoct such Platonist theories to give ourselves the illusion of superpowers to explain away the mysterious fact that we can understand mathematics. I have yet to see a neo-Platonist explain without hand-waving how it is that a physical brain can access knowledge from Platonia. I made such a proposal about 2 months ago in a thread titled How mathematical truth might enter our universe. You posted in the thread but never directly to my original post on the matter. Feel free to re-ignite that thread if you would like to discuss this topic further. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
Terren, (without taking the connotation seriously) *... if God did not have a sense of humor, could we exist?... * does that mean: we are just a joke? JM On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.comwrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. If we accept the God of comp, and come to see our experience as the view from the inside of a particular infinity of universal machines, then is there something to be said about what corners of arithmetical truth we must (or most probably) be in that can help us relate in a more personal sense to this god? A crude example question might be, if God did not have a sense of humor, could we exist? You could substitute other characterizations for other questions. Given that we could in principle derive physics from the math of the UD - providing a (partial) answer to the measure problem - could we not also solve for the character of God? Terren -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? If we accept the God of comp, See, Bruno, this is what your use of God language leads to. You protest that you're just making a scientific theory of what is fundamental - but already people are turning it back toward a guy with a beard in the clouds. Brent and come to see our experience as the view from the inside of a particular infinity of universal machines, then is there something to be said about what corners of arithmetical truth we must (or most probably) be in that can help us relate in a more personal sense to this god? A crude example question might be, if God did not have a sense of humor, could we exist? You could substitute other characterizations for other questions. Given that we could in principle derive physics from the math of the UD - providing a (partial) answer to the measure problem - could we not also solve for the character of God? Terren -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6110 - Release Date: 02/17/13 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
Hi Brent, No, I don't have any desire to anthropomorphize those things you mentioned, but I think it's fair to say we are all wired to want to anthropomorphize things in general - especially things we can't predict that have some kind of impact on us, like the weather. That said, I don't have a particular *need* to do so, and if the god of comp is best understood as nothing but the cold calculus of logic, so be it. But the indeterminacy embodied by comp as Bruno has exposed opens the door to potentially many interpretations of Truth... so it got me to thinking about if there were ways in which solving the measure problem might end up characterizing the nature of the kind of mathematical truth that could support the experience we are having right now. I think it's an interesting question. Believe me, I am as far from talking about the bearded guy as any diehard atheist, so don't take this as a question that leads anywhere in particular. I have no agenda here, I promise. I walk a path somewhere between atheism and a full-blooded embrace of divinity (a wide range I know), and I make no claims to having any kind of consistent position. Bruno's idealism does appeal to me though, and I am exploring that. Terren On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 4:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? If we accept the God of comp, See, Bruno, this is what your use of God language leads to. You protest that you're just making a scientific theory of what is fundamental - but already people are turning it back toward a guy with a beard in the clouds. Brent and come to see our experience as the view from the inside of a particular infinity of universal machines, then is there something to be said about what corners of arithmetical truth we must (or most probably) be in that can help us relate in a more personal sense to this god? A crude example question might be, if God did not have a sense of humor, could we exist? You could substitute other characterizations for other questions. Given that we could in principle derive physics from the math of the UD - providing a (partial) answer to the measure problem - could we not also solve for the character of God? Terren -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6110 - Release Date: 02/17/13 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On 2/18/2013 2:54 PM, John Mikes wrote: Terren, (without taking the connotation seriously) */... if God did not have a sense of humor, could we exist?... /* does that mean: we are just a joke? JM Who would be the one to laugh? On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com mailto:terren.suy...@gmail.com wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. If we accept the God of comp, and come to see our experience as the view from the inside of a particular infinity of universal machines, then is there something to be said about what corners of arithmetical truth we must (or most probably) be in that can help us relate in a more personal sense to this god? A crude example question might be, if God did not have a sense of humor, could we exist? You could substitute other characterizations for other questions. Given that we could in principle derive physics from the math of the UD - providing a (partial) answer to the measure problem - could we not also solve for the character of God? Terren -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On 2/18/2013 5:40 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 2/18/2013 2:54 PM, John Mikes wrote: Terren, (without taking the connotation seriously) */... if God did not have a sense of humor, could we exist?... /* does that mean: we are just a joke? JM Who would be the one to laugh? God is a comedian, playing before an audience that's afraid to laugh. -- Voltaire -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: the character of the god of comp
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/18/2013 11:47 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: If God is arithmetical truth, then what if anything is there to be said about its character? I know from a formal perspective the answer is nothing, because nothing formal can be said about truth. This is more of an informal question, and comes out of my innate desire to anthropomorphize. Why would you suppose that your desire to anthropomorphize is anything other than wishful thinking? Do you also have a desire to anthropormorphize the periodic table? the solar system? the infinitesimal calculus? Within comp, there are many minds that have infinite computations resources at their disposal. They can evolve forever, and approach infinite intelligence and knowledge. They all explore the same mathematical truth and thus having the same data (that of mathematical truth they explore) together with near infinite intelligence, they are almost never wrong on any question or matter. Thus, despite possibly different origins, they are all of a like mind, opinion, and possibly character. The number of fundamental questions on which these super intelligence disagree goes towards zero as their intelligence goes towards infinity. With infinite computational power, these God-like super intelligences have the power to save other beings (regardless of what universe the other being hails from). These God-minds are in a position to help, and thus responsible for the outcome if they fail to act. There is much suffering of conscious beings in the physical universes. With infinite computing power at their disposal, these super intelligences can determine re-create any conscious being from the moment of its physical death and ressurect it to a existence of that being's desires. This is not to say this is what they would do, but if it is the right decision to make, then nearly all super-intelligences will agree it is the right thing to do and will do it. In this sense, there can be a anthropomorphic character to mathematical truth, which comes into existence an infinite number of times and ways but in most appearances, behaves similarly to all its other incarnations. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
