Re: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
"Jose M. Sanchez" wrote: Well since the release i686 RPM's are really compiled for i586, this is a rather academic discussion... Civilme states that there are NO i686 optimizations in the i686 RPM's... that they are really i586 optimized RPM's with i686 tagging because of the CPU in the machine they were compiled on. So there seems to be a lot of worry over nothing... -JMS Unless you are one of the unfortunate souls pulling your hair out over architecture dependency problems... -- David Rankin Nacogdoches, Texas
RE: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
Are you then saying that the RPM recompilation does NOT by default turn on the i686 optimization switches... If so then does the target=i686 do so? Which is what I though happened automatically with a --rebuild. If not WHY What good is the target=i686 switch for RPM rebuilds then Thanks. -JMS -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Civileme Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 9:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
Re: Re[2]: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Rusty Carruth wrote: I recently joined this list, not because I feel 'expert' but because I wanted to know how the next release of Mandrake was shaping up, and this isn't a bad place to find out. I am very glad I caught this thread. I'm currently running 2 AMD K6s and mandrake 6.1 with the 7.0 update, so I'm a bit behind the rest of you. Updating is on my mind My outlook is simple: I want to hear exactly what mandrake are going to do: are they going to release in i586 i686 separately, or plump for one or the other? These pcs are with me until they cease to function, or fall beneath the minimum specs in a way that hurts; I reckon that's 4-5 years, because increases in available power won't leave any 100 Mzh bus machine on the scrap heap for a while. Cutting them off in 8-12 months (the only time I heard mentioned) is like telling me to buy another distribution -- Regards, Declan Moriarty Applied Researches - Ireland's Foremost Electronic Hardware Genius A Slightly Serious(TM) Company Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. I'm not so sure the 350 thru 600 K6-2's and 3's will go away that soon. I build systems for a living and as of yet see no compelling reason to retire my K6-2 450 as it performs nearly as well as most 850 900's do given the same software etc.. Well, Ken beat me to it! I was planning to say basically the same thing, except that I don't build systems for a living, and I don't have a K6-2. Instead, I currently use a 486 for my firewall (running LM7.0.1), and until someone GAVE me a dual p90 system I was planning on using another 486 as my file server. But I *will* be using a 486 as my syslog server. The point? Simple - just because its ancient does not mean a bunch of us won't be using it. And if I'm using a 486 after all this time, just think of how long folks will be using the much faster K6's!
RE: Re[2]: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
Well since the release i686 RPM's are really compiled for i586, this is a rather academic discussion... Civilme states that there are NO i686 optimizations in the i686 RPM's... that they are really i586 optimized RPM's with i686 tagging because of the CPU in the machine they were compiled on. So there seems to be a lot of worry over nothing... -JMS -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Declan Moriarty Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2029 6:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re[2]: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...) On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Rusty Carruth wrote: I recently joined this list, not because I feel 'expert' but because I wanted to know how the next release of Mandrake was shaping up, and this isn't a bad place to find out. I am very glad I caught this thread. I'm currently running 2 AMD K6s and mandrake 6.1 with the 7.0 update, so I'm a bit behind the rest of you. Updating is on my mind My outlook is simple: I want to hear exactly what mandrake are going to do: are they going to release in i586 i686 separately, or plump for one or the other? These pcs are with me until they cease to function, or fall beneath the minimum specs in a way that hurts; I reckon that's 4-5 years, because increases in available power won't leave any 100 Mzh bus machine on the scrap heap for a while. Cutting them off in 8-12 months (the only time I heard mentioned) is like telling me to buy another distribution -- Regards, Declan Moriarty Applied Researches - Ireland's Foremost Electronic Hardware Genius A Slightly Serious(TM) Company Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. I'm not so sure the 350 thru 600 K6-2's and 3's will go away that soon. I build systems for a living and as of yet see no compelling reason to retire my K6-2 450 as it performs nearly as well as most 850 900's do given the same software etc.. Well, Ken beat me to it! I was planning to say basically the same thing, except that I don't build systems for a living, and I don't have a K6-2. Instead, I currently use a 486 for my firewall (running LM7.0.1), and until someone GAVE me a dual p90 system I was planning on using another 486 as my file server. But I *will* be using a 486 as my syslog server. The point? Simple - just because its ancient does not mean a bunch of us won't be using it. And if I'm using a 486 after all this time, just think of how long folks will be using the much faster K6's!
Re: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
So does this mean that the next ver of Mandrake will install on my AMDK6-400 without any trouble just like 7.2 ? If not I will be VERY upset On Friday 30 March 2001 12:51 am, so spoke David Rankin: "Jose M. Sanchez" wrote: To begin with, this is not a Mandrake issue, it's a Linux issue. The K6 can execute i686 code, just not optimally for the processor. With the Kernel it's another matter altogether... The MTRR register differences PREVENTs the i686 compiled kernel to operate on a K6 afaik. When I tried it I got an kernel which would not fully init... That plus the byte alignment optimzations for the 686, make the i586 distro better for the K6 in terms of speed and compatibility. It's not a question of making the i686 distro, "properly" identify the k6... LINUX (as directed by Linus) "properly" identifies the K6 characteristics and classifies it as a i585 for optimal operation... There was quite an extensive thread about this some time ago in the kernel forums... It's also doubtful that MANDRAKE will alienate it's prospective clients. I wouldn't doubt that what they'll resort to doing is producing a common distro that installs a i586 kernel with i686 code RPM's... albeit with a slight loss of performance over i586 optimizations or a seperate i586 distro, as they've done for the i486. Given the perponderance of AMD's though, I'll bet they will choose the former as it makes good marketing sense... It would be pretty easy to implement in an installer... they already do this for SMP installations anyway... -JMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well put Jose! I hope we see something like this come from Linus. Looking down the "time horizon", this issue will probably dissapear in 8 to 12 months, but in the interim, it just makes good business sense not to raise potential obstacles to the further acceptance of Linux. -- David Rankin Nacogdoches, Texas
Re: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
The one thing that I'm noticing throughout this particular discussion is that everyone is blaming Mandrake and not looking at the fact that the K6-2 and K6-3 are actually i586 chips. How can Mandrake make their distribution recognize the K6 series as i686 chips when they will just cough and sputter dring bootup it you try to run i686 optimized code on them. This isn't Mandrake's problem. I would like to see Mandrake continue to bundle the i586 RPMs into the distribution to retain some backward compatability, just because I also run Mandrake on an old P233 that I have. But my primary machine is an AMD Duron 600, which will make use of this new optimized code with no problems. So I woudliek to see the benefits of theenhanced speed as well as the ability to keep running the latest distributions on my 233. Thanks "Jose M. Sanchez" wrote: Eh, except 7.2 installs just fine on a P-90 and K5. It's only the 486 and 386's who are left out. The i586 vs i686 worries are somewhat ungrounded. The i586 code works best with the K6, etc. Jose, what will happen when the next full release of Mandrake appears? Will it install without complaint on the millions of K6-2s out there? Will there be 2 standard new releases, LM 8.x_i686 and LM8.x_i586? Will continued support of the K6-2 just be dropped? -- OR -- Will the core of the i686 install be made the properly recognize the K6-2. --OR-- Is there really a bit offset discrepancy that prevents the K6-2 from truly being included in the i686 frenzy? The foregoing is "the point" and it is a "worry" to a lot of people that rests on "solid" ground. -- David Rankin Nacogdoches, Texas
Re: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
Snip Well put Jose! I hope we see something like this come from Linus. Looking down the "time horizon", this issue will probably dissapear in 8 to 12 months, but in the interim, it just makes good business sense not to raise potential obstacles to the further acceptance of Linux. I'm not so sure the 350 thru 600 K6-2's and 3's will go away that soon. I build systems for a living and as of yet see no compelling reason to retire my K6-2 450 as it performs nearly as well as most 850 900's do given the same software etc.. -- Ken Thompson Electrocom Computer Services Payette, Idaho 83661 (208) 642-11701 Web: http://www.nwaa.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] HAM: WA7SYR - Member QCWA
Re: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
Its ok to have the i686 rpms in the version, just don't (whoever) remove the i586 ones, just add the i686 and leave the i586 IN there so one can install it on either machine and then everyone will be happy and the version won't give you any poop about installing, it will just install with no problems and complaining. On Friday 30 March 2001 08:15 am, so spoke Lyric: The one thing that I'm noticing throughout this particular discussion is that everyone is blaming Mandrake and not looking at the fact that the K6-2 and K6-3 are actually i586 chips. How can Mandrake make their distribution recognize the K6 series as i686 chips when they will just cough and sputter dring bootup it you try to run i686 optimized code on them. This isn't Mandrake's problem. I would like to see Mandrake continue to bundle the i586 RPMs into the distribution to retain some backward compatability, just because I also run Mandrake on an old P233 that I have. But my primary machine is an AMD Duron 600, which will make use of this new optimized code with no problems. So I woudliek to see the benefits of theenhanced speed as well as the ability to keep running the latest distributions on my 233. Thanks "Jose M. Sanchez" wrote: Eh, except 7.2 installs just fine on a P-90 and K5. It's only the 486 and 386's who are left out. The i586 vs i686 worries are somewhat ungrounded. The i586 code works best with the K6, etc. Jose, what will happen when the next full release of Mandrake appears? Will it install without complaint on the millions of K6-2s out there? Will there be 2 standard new releases, LM 8.x_i686 and LM8.x_i586? Will continued support of the K6-2 just be dropped? -- OR -- Will the core of the i686 install be made the properly recognize the K6-2. --OR-- Is there really a bit offset discrepancy that prevents the K6-2 from truly being included in the i686 frenzy? The foregoing is "the point" and it is a "worry" to a lot of people that rests on "solid" ground. -- David Rankin Nacogdoches, Texas
Re: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
Sorry, Civilme. I should have clarified a letter better with my position. So far, I've had no problems with Cooker. The problem is MandrakeFreq. By grabbing the "unsupported" directory without filtering for i586 binaries, I'm prevented from updating my 7.2 installation to the latest "mostly stable" version of Linux-Mandrake. Specifically, the following packages remain as i686... mozilla-0.8-1mdk.i686.rpm mozilla-irc-0.8-1mdk.i686.rpm mozilla-mail-0.8-1mdk.i686.rpm mozilla-psm-0.8-1mdk.i686.rpm And if the pattern were repeated with what has currently been included in "unsupported", the following packages are likely to appear... asteroids3D-0.2.2-3mdk.i686.rpm audiofile-0.1.11-6mdk.i686.rpm centericq-3.20.5-1mdk.i686.rpm esound-0.2.22-2mdk.i686.rpm gkrellm-1.0.6-1mdk.i686.rpm gkrellm-devel-1.0.6-1mdk.i686.rpm gkrellm-plugins-1.0.6-1mdk.i686.rpm openssl-devel-0.9.6-5mdk.i686.rpm gnorpm-0.95.1-3mdk.i686.rpm libaudiofile0-0.1.11-6mdk.i686.rpm libaudiofile0-devel-0.1.11-6mdk.i686.rpm libesound0-0.2.22-2mdk.i686.rpm libesound0-devel-0.2.22-2mdk.i686.rpm liboaf0-0.6.3-1mdk.i686.rpm liboaf0-devel-0.6.3-1mdk.i686.rpm openssl-0.9.6-5mdk.i686.rpm tripwire-2.3.0-1mdk.i686.rpm wine-20001202-1mdk.i686.rpm wine-devel-20001202-1mdk.i686.rpm xmms-alarm-0.2.2-2mdk.i686.rpm xmms-gdancer-0.2.0-4mdk.i686.rpm xmms-status-plugin-0.5-2mdk.i686.rpm Is there any chance Mandrakesoft can make a policy where i686 binaries are turned down for inclusion in the unsupported mirrors? Perhaps with a boilerplate set of instructions for generating i586 binary packages (or URL to such). Civileme wrote: On Friday 30 March 2001 09:15, you wrote: The one thing that I'm noticing throughout this particular discussion is that everyone is blaming Mandrake and not looking at the fact that the K6-2 and K6-3 are actually i586 chips. How can Mandrake make their distribution recognize the K6 series as i686 chips when they will just cough and sputter dring bootup it you try to run i686 optimized code on them. This isn't Mandrake's problem. I would like to see Mandrake continue to bundle the i586 RPMs into the distribution to retain some backward compatability, just because I also run Mandrake on an old P233 that I have. But my primary machine is an AMD Duron 600, which will make use of this new optimized code with no problems. So I woudliek to see the benefits of theenhanced speed as well as the ability to keep running the latest distributions on my 233. Thanks "Jose M. Sanchez" wrote: Eh, except 7.2 installs just fine on a P-90 and K5. It's only the 486 and 386's who are left out. The i586 vs i686 worries are somewhat ungrounded. The i586 code works best with the K6, etc. Jose, what will happen when the next full release of Mandrake appears? Will it install without complaint on the millions of K6-2s out there? Will there be 2 standard new releases, LM 8.x_i686 and LM8.x_i586? Will continued support of the K6-2 just be dropped? -- OR -- Will the core of the i686 install be made the properly recognize the K6-2. --OR-- Is there really a bit offset discrepancy that prevents the K6-2 from truly being included in the i686 frenzy? The foregoing is "the point" and it is a "worry" to a lot of people that rests on "solid" ground. -- David Rankin Nacogdoches, Texas All of this is quite pointless. We have made no 686-specific binaries. The binaries labeled 686 are so labeled because they are made with a 686 and NOT because there were compiler flag settings for the 686. Try it yourself, take any src.rpm, install it and rpm --rebuild *src.rpm and if your processor is a 686 you get a package that SAYS i686 in the label, but the compiler flags are unchanged unless you override them, so the package is still a 586 compatible. But FYI, here is a listing of the packages on the 8.0 beta disk number 2. Let me point out once more that our tests on compiling for architectures in the x86 family indicate that _usually_ the best one for performance is the 586 code. Whether this is a compiler limitation or whether the CPU manufacturers add worthless instructions to the set to sell more "advanced" processors is a moot point. It is difficult at this time to justify compiling for any more advanced processor than the 586, and there are many cases where 686-specific code will SLOW DOWN program execution. Civileme Aurora-8.2-5mdk.i586.rpm Aurora-Monitor-NewStyle-Categorizing-WsLib-8.2-5mdk.i586.rpm Aurora-Monitor-NewStyle-WsLib-8.2-5mdk.i586.rpm Aurora-Monitor-Traditional-Gtk+-8.2-5mdk.i586.rpm Aurora-Monitor-Traditional-WsLib-8.2-5mdk.i586.rpm Bastille-1.2.0.pre22-0.3mdk.noarch.rpm Bastille-Chooser-1.2.0.pre22-0.3mdk.noarch.rpm Bastille-Curses-module-1.2.0.pre22-0.3mdk.noarch.rpm Bastille-Tk-module-1.2.0.pre22-0.3mdk.noarch.rpm DrakConf-0.61-29mdk.i586.rpm DrakeLogo-1.0-20mdk.i586.rpm GConf-1.0.0-3mdk.i586.rpm
[expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
We've lost sight of one of my original points in similar discussions. If Mandrake is a Pentium optimized distro and NOT a P2+ optimized distro, then i686 RPM's HAVE NO PLACE in the distro. Period. They just shouldn't be there. Never mind us annoyed K6-2 users. What about the kid on his dad's old K5 or Pentium 166 who can't install something because it's i686 compiled? "Jose M. Sanchez" wrote: Eh, no. Have you looked at the kernel code? Have you tried recompiling the kernel? (Did you read the HELP about this issue?) Linux utilizes the mtrr registers which differ between the i686 and the K6. The K6 and the i586 are a correct match according to the kernel mtrr handler. If you want optimal speed with your K6 you are better off using the i586 optimizations, otherwise the byte alignments for the i686 will also come into play... etc. -JMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David Rankin Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 9:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: WAIT!! STOP!! Re: [expert] DON'T USE --ignorearch!!! Guys, this is a HUGE issue! There are millions of AMD K6-2s out there -- a large user base. I have one myself. If a new Mandrake i686 release doesn't properly recognize the architecture of these machines as i686 there will be a HUGE void in the potential user base for the new release. Not good for Mandrake. -- Digital Wokan, Tribal Mage of the Electronics Age Guerilla Linux Warrior
Re: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
HEAR!! HEAR!!! Well spoken! On Wednesday 28 March 2001 07:39 pm, so spoke Digital Wokan: We've lost sight of one of my original points in similar discussions. If Mandrake is a Pentium optimized distro and NOT a P2+ optimized distro, then i686 RPM's HAVE NO PLACE in the distro. Period. They just shouldn't be there. Never mind us annoyed K6-2 users. What about the kid on his dad's old K5 or Pentium 166 who can't install something because it's i686 compiled? "Jose M. Sanchez" wrote: Eh, no. Have you looked at the kernel code? Have you tried recompiling the kernel? (Did you read the HELP about this issue?) Linux utilizes the mtrr registers which differ between the i686 and the K6. The K6 and the i586 are a correct match according to the kernel mtrr handler. If you want optimal speed with your K6 you are better off using the i586 optimizations, otherwise the byte alignments for the i686 will also come into play... etc. -JMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David Rankin Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 9:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: WAIT!! STOP!! Re: [expert] DON'T USE --ignorearch!!! Guys, this is a HUGE issue! There are millions of AMD K6-2s out there -- a large user base. I have one myself. If a new Mandrake i686 release doesn't properly recognize the architecture of these machines as i686 there will be a HUGE void in the potential user base for the new release. Not good for Mandrake.
RE: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
Eh, except 7.2 installs just fine on a P-90 and K5. It's only the 486 and 386's who are left out. The i586 vs i686 worries are somewhat ungrounded. The i586 code works best with the K6, etc. -JMS -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Chubby Vic Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 10:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...) HEAR!! HEAR!!! Well spoken!
Re: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
On Wednesday 28 March 2001 06:39 pm, you wrote: We've lost sight of one of my original points in similar discussions. If Mandrake is a Pentium optimized distro and NOT a P2+ optimized distro, then i686 RPM's HAVE NO PLACE in the distro. Period. They just shouldn't be there. Never mind us annoyed K6-2 users. What about the kid on his dad's old K5 or Pentium 166 who can't install something because it's i686 compiled? Exactly my point in my earlier post.. I hate to think I have to go back to my P-II 400 in order to run certain programs, it's much slower than my K6-2 450 (799 bogomips as compaired with 901 bogomips).. Bogomips may not be a valid measurement of speed, but the 450 does run stuff much faster using comparable equipment (RAM Hdd etc). I think that if the rpm's are going to be compiled for i686, they should have some backward compatibility factored in. -- Ken Thompson Electrocom Computer Services Payette, Idaho 83661 (208) 642-11701 Web: http://www.nwaa.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] HAM: WA7SYR - Member QCWA
RE: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
To begin with, this is not a Mandrake issue, it's a Linux issue. The K6 can execute i686 code, just not optimally for the processor. With the Kernel it's another matter altogether... The MTRR register differences PREVENTs the i686 compiled kernel to operate on a K6 afaik. When I tried it I got an kernel which would not fully init... That plus the byte alignment optimzations for the 686, make the i586 distro better for the K6 in terms of speed and compatibility. It's not a question of making the i686 distro, "properly" identify the k6... LINUX (as directed by Linus) "properly" identifies the K6 characteristics and classifies it as a i585 for optimal operation... There was quite an extensive thread about this some time ago in the kernel forums... It's also doubtful that MANDRAKE will alienate it's prospective clients. I wouldn't doubt that what they'll resort to doing is producing a common distro that installs a i586 kernel with i686 code RPM's... albeit with a slight loss of performance over i586 optimizations or a seperate i586 distro, as they've done for the i486. Given the perponderance of AMD's though, I'll bet they will choose the former as it makes good marketing sense... It would be pretty easy to implement in an installer... they already do this for SMP installations anyway... -JMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: David Rankin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 1:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; mandrake Subject: Re: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...) "Jose M. Sanchez" wrote: Eh, except 7.2 installs just fine on a P-90 and K5. It's only the 486 and 386's who are left out. The i586 vs i686 worries are somewhat ungrounded. The i586 code works best with the K6, etc. Jose, what will happen when the next full release of Mandrake appears? Will it install without complaint on the millions of K6-2s out there? Will there be 2 standard new releases, LM 8.x_i686 and LM8.x_i586? Will continued support of the K6-2 just be dropped? -- OR -- Will the core of the i686 install be made the properly recognize the K6-2. --OR-- Is there really a bit offset discrepancy that prevents the K6-2 from truly being included in the i686 frenzy? The foregoing is "the point" and it is a "worry" to a lot of people that rests on "solid" ground. -- David Rankin Nacogdoches, Texas
RE: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...)
Whenever possible this is exactly what I do. Since the recompilation assures compatibility with existing libraries the resulting RPM's are normally far more stable than pre-compiled ones... Yes you've isolated the point of contention... Often the "unsupported" package releases are done by people who are hacking together changes for their own systems... The source RPM's are not always provided and they do not also provide RPM's for other releases. This is unforunate. -JMS -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Digital Wokan Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 1:34 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] Lost sight of point (was: WAIT!! STOP!!...) The biggest contributor to this problem are those submitting i686 packages to the "unsupported" packages. I once enjoyed updating to the versions of programs ahead of Mandrake's official support of a package. Now, I'm stuck with things like Mozilla 0.7 because the person who built and submitted the Mozilla 0.8 package didn't read up on how to make an i586 binary package. I'm beginning to think my only hope for staying up to date is to download .src.rpm's only and use those for updating my system.
