Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Wolfgang Bornath]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 08:18 -0600, Charles Curley wrote:
>  
> If enough people ask before buying if a product is supported by Linux,
> eventually the stores will catch on, and start keeping notes on which ones
> are and which are not. 

In most large stores in Germany there are still employees who
have heard the word Linux but do not know anything about it.

> Similarly, if enough people return products saying,
> sorry, I couldn't get this to work with Linux, the manufacturers will get
> the hint and see to it that their products do work with Linux.

When you buy something in a store in Germany you can only give
it back if the product is broken or does not work as promised in
writing!

In Germany the customer has no right to return a product which
works as the text on the wrap says. On the carton it says only
things about Windows and sometimes about Mac. So we cannot turn
back products to the shop just because they do not run under
Linux.
It's different when you ask before buying and the store says
"Yes it will run under Linux". But he will not say that because
he doesn't know.

wobo
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Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Charles Curley]

On Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 10:00:49AM +0200, Denis Havlik wrote:

> 
> And one last tip: think before buying a hardware. Always ask for hardware
> which works problemlessly under linux, if needed write to manufacturer
> before purchasing, and if it does not return it back to shop. This is
> exactly how windows users would react if they buy a piece of hardware
> which does not work, so just do the same and all of the sudden your
> problems become manufacturers problems...

If enough people ask before buying if a product is supported by Linux,
eventually the stores will catch on, and start keeping notes on which ones
are and which are not. Similarly, if enough people return products saying,
sorry, I couldn't get this to work with Linux, the manufacturers will get
the hint and see to it that their products do work with Linux.

It's a chicken and egg problem, and, just like chickens and eggs, the
answer is evolutionary. We just need to evolve the vendors by providing an
environment where Linux-friendly products are rewarded.

-- 

-- C^2

No windows were crashed in the making of this email.

Looking for fine software and/or web pages?
http://w3.trib.com/~ccurley
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RE: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Mark Weaver]

Hey guys...I don't care what anyone says. Linux Mandrake is at the top of
the Linux food chain and has windows beat by a country mile!

-- 
Mark

I love my Linux Box...
REASON # 2 ...X-windows is just a suedonym.
Registered Linux user # 182496

On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Denis Havlik wrote:

> :~>True.  The Windows installation is typically easier than *any* linux distro, 
> :~>even the almighty (and it is, IMHO) Mandrake.
> 
> Nop. It is not easier, but it works on more hardware. Though I have seen
> 2 machines where LM would install but Windows would not ;->. 
> 
> :~>Consider the fact that Microsoft spends $$ on employees whose sole 
> :~>purpose is to understand how the computer disinclined people think.  
> :~>Consider the fact that Microsoft founded itself with the purpose of 
> :~>producing an OS that *anyone* can install and use on *any* machine (i386 
> :~>based mostly).
> 
> This is not our real problem: Consider the fact that hardware manufactures
> write their Windows drivers themselves, then PAY microsoft to test these
> drivers and become "certified for windows"... On the other hand, this
> same manufacturers are often reluctant to even publish the specs needed 
> to write linux drivers... You got the picture?   
> 
> :~>Linux is for sure on the way however, and Mandrake (IMHO) is really helping 
> :~>to push this.
> 
> The fact is: ca 50% of our efforts are on "hardware
> support" (kernel-tweaking, recognition, automatic configuration)
> front, but we are still a small company with very limited resources, and
> more often than not we are still sailing against the wind
> 
> Keeping this in mind, our hardware support is asstounding. I know that
> this does not help the people who could not install on their hardware at
> home, but every one is invited to help himself: Subscribe to cooker, talk
> to people, find the reason for your problems and help us solve it.
> 
> And one last tip: think before buying a hardware. Always ask for hardware
> which works problemlessly under linux, if needed write to manufacturer
> before purchasing, and if it does not return it back to shop. This is
> exactly how windows users would react if they buy a piece of hardware
> which does not work, so just do the same and all of the sudden your
> problems become manufacturers problems...
> 
> have fun ;->
> 
>   Denis
> 

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Anton Graham]

Submitted 10-Jul-00 by cllug org:

> I wish I could install this without X, I tried
> "Server" and "Normal", I want to install Mandrake 7.1
> and then the source for XFree86 4.1, I have tried,
> custom and expert install, text and normal. I finally
> just removed the /usr/X11R6 directory (tar -gzed it
> first)
> 
> I choose individual packages, and after it is all said
> and done it tries to put on X.

You can just skip this step.  The little stars on the left that show
where in the install you are are also buttons.  You can simply click
the star for the next step, effectively skipping X.

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Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Brian T. Schellenberger]

IMHO Caldera OpenLinux comes a lot closer than Mandrake on this score,
though I prefer Mandrake myself.

Caldera sacrifies choice and support of really obscure hardare for a
smoother experience.

But Microsoft does the same thing; Windows 98 wouldn't install on three
of the computers I tried it on (though Linux would on all of them).


bobby dowling wrote:
> 
> True.  The Windows installation is typically easier than *any* linux distro,
> even the almighty (and it is, IMHO) Mandrake.
> 
> Consider the fact that Microsoft spends $$ on employees whose sole
> purpose is to understand how the computer disinclined people think.
> Consider the fact that Microsoft founded itself with the purpose of
> producing an OS that *anyone* can install and use on *any* machine (i386
> based mostly).
> 
> Unix did not start out with that purpose and Linux is just realizing this
> purpose, but doesn't have the financial backing to support it the way
> Microsoft has.
> 
> Linux is for sure on the way however, and Mandrake (IMHO) is really helping
> to push this.
> 
> >From: "Gil Baron W0MN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: RE: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1
> >Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 06:17:11 -0500
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >Received: from [216.71.84.35] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id
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> >Received: (from sympa@localhost)by mandrakesoft.mandrakesoft.com
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> >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Jul 09 07:17:15 2000
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> >
> >You are lucky if that is all you have.
> >I cannot install because it does not find xfree86 RPM. I amusing the
> >downloaded iso images and that is what I get and I am then dead, no
> >xfree86,
> >no install.
> >Anybody have a solution?
> >
> >You are totally correct about Windows install being VASTLY better!
> >
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Bob Puff@NLE [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 9:38 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Dennis,
> > >
> > > > No. Our beta-testing period for 7.1 was 3-4 x longer than for 7.0, and
> > > > there was nothing even near to "abrupt cesation" of testing.
> > > There were 3
> > > > public betas, and we did not receive any "critical bug reports" for
> >the
> > > > third one, so we had all the reason to beleive that 7.1 will be a good
> > > > product (and it is).
> > > > but none are really "show stoppers" (workarounds exist), and I
> > > still think
> > > > that overal quality of 7.1 is miles better than 7.0, or any previous
> > > > Mandrake release:
> > >
> > > Well, as someone who had a little experience with 6.1, and
> > > recently did several installs of 7.1 (never tried 7.0), I would
> > > beg to differ with you big time.  There are some significant bugs
> > > dealing mostly with the install that I have posted here, but no
> > > one has responded.  And yes, they will keep 7.1 from installing!
> > > Let me see if I can recall these:
> > >
> > > 1. The CDROM bug: once you get to where it wants disk #2, the
> > > cdrom drive will not eject a disk.  No way whatsoever to change
> > > disks.  (I did manage to change the disk by powering down the
> > > CDROM drive, but then Linux wouldn't recognize it.  Happened with
> > > two

RE: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[cllug org]

Here is my take on all of this,

< -- snippage quoted from thread -- >

>I cannot install because it does not find xfree86
RPM. I amusing the
>downloaded iso images and that is what I get and I am
then dead, no 
>xfree86,
>no install.

I wish I could install this without X, I tried
"Server" and "Normal", I want to install Mandrake 7.1
and then the source for XFree86 4.1, I have tried,
custom and expert install, text and normal. I finally
just removed the /usr/X11R6 directory (tar -gzed it
first)

I choose individual packages, and after it is all said
and done it tries to put on X.

>You are totally correct about Windows install being
>VASTLY better!

 ahh opinions

Ever try an install with windows and a winmodem, an
AMD K6-2 400? Win95? ever get a vfat error, bsod while
installing? Hard Driver errors? What are you trying to
convince us to believe?

 Well let's (ass)ume you have.. Now can we agree that
all operating systems suck equally? There is no
"nirvana" OS, Linux just gives you the ability to pick
out a 3 piece suit and have it custom tailored.
(Instead of the Kmart blue light special: fits
everybody's wants and needs in a far from perfect over
priced M$ world).

Looking over the rest of the post, it makes me wonder
what type of system you are running this on? It seems
that the older systems do not like Mandrake, Mandrake
is for the faster high performance boxes, get Debian,
or Slackware if you want the basic necessities and a
386 based install.

As far as long posting times, and forever long
replies, might I suggest you to find a LUG (Linux User
Group) near you. I believe you can find them in the
back of "Maximum Linux" magazine, or
http://www.linux.com. Sometimes LUG mailing lists, or
local peer support will go a lot further in helping
you figure out and resolving your problems.

Finally, I have to say Mandrake 7.1 is the best
release I have seen or reviewed to date. This is just
an opinion, don't get your panties all bunched up.

If you have a 7.1 ISO and it does not work, pay a
measly $7.99 (USA) for "Maximum Linux" which this
month came with Mandrake 7.1

Don't worry.. the mud will eventually clear up for you
to find the pearl.

So long, have a nice day! 8-)

John
President
CLlug - Clarksville Linux Users Group
Clarksville, TN
http://www.cllug.org

P.S. I am not replying to any one person in this
thread... the post was to long for me to disect.

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RE: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Denis Havlik]

:~>True.  The Windows installation is typically easier than *any* linux distro, 
:~>even the almighty (and it is, IMHO) Mandrake.

Nop. It is not easier, but it works on more hardware. Though I have seen
2 machines where LM would install but Windows would not ;->. 

:~>Consider the fact that Microsoft spends $$ on employees whose sole 
:~>purpose is to understand how the computer disinclined people think.  
:~>Consider the fact that Microsoft founded itself with the purpose of 
:~>producing an OS that *anyone* can install and use on *any* machine (i386 
:~>based mostly).

This is not our real problem: Consider the fact that hardware manufactures
write their Windows drivers themselves, then PAY microsoft to test these
drivers and become "certified for windows"... On the other hand, this
same manufacturers are often reluctant to even publish the specs needed 
to write linux drivers... You got the picture?   

:~>Linux is for sure on the way however, and Mandrake (IMHO) is really helping 
:~>to push this.

The fact is: ca 50% of our efforts are on "hardware
support" (kernel-tweaking, recognition, automatic configuration)
front, but we are still a small company with very limited resources, and
more often than not we are still sailing against the wind

Keeping this in mind, our hardware support is asstounding. I know that
this does not help the people who could not install on their hardware at
home, but every one is invited to help himself: Subscribe to cooker, talk
to people, find the reason for your problems and help us solve it.

And one last tip: think before buying a hardware. Always ask for hardware
which works problemlessly under linux, if needed write to manufacturer
before purchasing, and if it does not return it back to shop. This is
exactly how windows users would react if they buy a piece of hardware
which does not work, so just do the same and all of the sudden your
problems become manufacturers problems...

have fun ;->

Denis
-- 
-
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Quality Assurance  (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
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Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Eugene Grimsdell]

>  
> :~>2. The way to start the install program from a DOS prompt is broken - doesn't 
>work at all.
> 
> Umpf? Does here, AFAIK. Anyone else has this problem?
> 

I have found it
On my Mustec M185 P2 266 laptop that has a windoze 98 on a 2 Gig
installed fine from cd boot disk - by default Mandrake installs grub, big
problem on my 8 Gig Toshiba hard drive > 1024 - I had to fdisk /mbr 
I then try to install linux from M$ and after installation I got grub again
and no Icon as in 7.0 in my windoze. (I am no expert and grub does not see my
/ partition so it doesn't boot linux)
Problem was solved by manually running loadlin and run lilo with
the help of a linux user group.

On the other hand I used Mandrake 6.5 on this laptop and liked it. When 7.0
7.01 and 7.02 came out I went to Corel 1.0 and enjoyed the stay. Now come the
good part, I have tried 7.1 and I like it a hell of a lot, so much so that I use
the Corel CD as a coaster and Mandrake on all my linux systems. The main reason
was kruiser, I think it should be the default file manager but that is KDE's
problem. There is also a lot of apps to choose from maybe too much but that is
Linux - you can choose, you are not stuck with something that you don't like.

Sure if you are brain-dead and like to reboot now and then, and just type
letters goto windoze with there easy install program where you have no control
over the installation and have to reboot 7 or 8 times to get all the drivers
running. (If you are lucky)  

If you ask about the windoze on my laptop - Games, linux needs more games
In South Africa there is no place where you can buy any Linux Games like those
at Loki

 -- 
Eugene GrimsdellSystem Administrator
OSRAM South Africa  www.osram.co.za
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Craig Woods]

Make sure you have done a "ln -s /dev/ttyS? /dev/modem" Where ? is your modem
device. Or in kppp just select your /dev/ttyS?

Craig

Mark Weaver wrote:

> Doesn't kppp pick it up? It sounds like the one I'm using and mine works
> fine.
>
> --
> Mark
>
> I love my Linux Box...
> REASON # 2 ...X-windows is just a suedonym.
> Registered Linux user # 182496
>
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, bobby dowling wrote:
>
> >
> > In regards to this isa device stuff, I have an isa 56.6 us robotics modem
> > that doesn't seem to be detected.  Linuxconf won't query it, kudzu won't
> > detect it, and kppp can't use it.
> >
> > The weird thing is that Mandrake 7.0 detected it fine with Kudzu.
> >
> > Any suggestions ...maybe disable plug 'n play in kernel?
> >
> >
> > >From: Jean-Louis Debert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1
> > >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:33:31 +0200
> > >MIME-Version: 1.0
> > >Received: from [216.71.84.35] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id
> > >MHotMailBB32D59300ACD821979DD847542311950; Mon Jul 10 01:34:27 2000
> > >Received: (from sympa@localhost)by mandrakesoft.mandrakesoft.com
> > >(8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA06562for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 10 Jul 2000
> > >03:34:21 -0500
> > >Received: from dns.rsd.ch (dns.rsd.ch [195.212.115.2]) by
> > >mandrakesoft.mandrakesoft.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA05104 for
> > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:27:55 -0500
> > >Received: from rsd.ch ([195.212.115.237]) by dns.rsd.ch (8.9.2/8.9.2) with
> > >   ESMTP id KAA24246 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Mon, 10 Jul 2000
> > >10:19:23 +0200
> > >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jul 10 01:35:12 2000
> > >Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Organization: Private Linux user
> > >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U)
> > >X-Accept-Language: fr,en
> > >References:
> > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >X-Loop: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >X-Sequence: 191
> > >Precedence: list
> > >
> > >Denis Havlik wrote:
> > > >
> > > > :~>Legacy devices for the ISA bus won't even fit on my last three
> > > > :~>mobos, and PnP was rightly named "plug N' Pray" by most techs
> > > > :~>I know, IMHO, so I am not very worried about the 3c509B I just
> > > > :~>rid myself of.
> > > >
> > > > ISA PnP? Uff. No wonder it does not work properly: Pixel denies the
> > > > existence of these peskies. :-/
> > > >
> > > > ISA PnP devices == trouble, and while this particular card (well,
> > > > actually most of them) may be made to work, my advice is to trow them
> > > > away: One day we may have a good support for winmodems, but I doubt that
> > > > we will ever see really good (==no problems) support for ISA PnP.
> > >
> > >Oh, I wouldn't quite say so: I've been using an ISA PNP card
> > >(SB AWE 64) in Linux for quite a long time (several years)
> > >and the user-mode isapnp utility works quite well for my taste.
> > >OTOH, I never quite got the hang of the PNP stuff (incl ISA PNP)
> > >now integrated in 2.3 and even lately in 2.2.x kernels, so
> > >I still de-activate it in the kernel and use the user-mode stuff.
> > >
> > >One thing I agree, though, is that it is probably hopeless to make
> > >this stuff work properly in an _install_ program.
> > >In other words, it does work, but one has to invest in a little
> > >RTFM first ...
> > >
> > >Also, I agree that in a few more months (?) the question will
> > >become irrelevant as more and more new mobos don't even _have_
> > >any ISA slot ...
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >Jean-Louis Debert[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >74 Annemasse  France
> > >old Linux fan
> > >
> >
> > 
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Mark Weaver]

dunno...drivers are different maybe???

-- 
Mark

I love my Linux Box...
REASON # 2 ...X-windows is just a suedonym.
Registered Linux user # 182496

On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Sarang Lakare wrote:

> I am always confused .. why do things work with 7.0 and not with 7.1.. this
> is really strange!
> 
> 

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Mark Weaver]

Doesn't kppp pick it up? It sounds like the one I'm using and mine works
fine.

-- 
Mark

I love my Linux Box...
REASON # 2 ...X-windows is just a suedonym.
Registered Linux user # 182496

On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, bobby dowling wrote:

> 
> In regards to this isa device stuff, I have an isa 56.6 us robotics modem 
> that doesn't seem to be detected.  Linuxconf won't query it, kudzu won't 
> detect it, and kppp can't use it.
> 
> The weird thing is that Mandrake 7.0 detected it fine with Kudzu.
> 
> Any suggestions ...maybe disable plug 'n play in kernel?
> 
> 
> >From: Jean-Louis Debert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1
> >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:33:31 +0200
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >Received: from [216.71.84.35] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id 
> >MHotMailBB32D59300ACD821979DD847542311950; Mon Jul 10 01:34:27 2000
> >Received: (from sympa@localhost)by mandrakesoft.mandrakesoft.com 
> >(8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA06562for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 
> >03:34:21 -0500
> >Received: from dns.rsd.ch (dns.rsd.ch [195.212.115.2]) by
> >mandrakesoft.mandrakesoft.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA05104 for
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:27:55 -0500
> >Received: from rsd.ch ([195.212.115.237]) by dns.rsd.ch (8.9.2/8.9.2) with  
> >   ESMTP id KAA24246 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Mon, 10 Jul 2000
> >10:19:23 +0200
> >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jul 10 01:35:12 2000
> >Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Organization: Private Linux user
> >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U)
> >X-Accept-Language: fr,en
> >References: 
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >X-Loop: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >X-Sequence: 191
> >Precedence: list
> >
> >Denis Havlik wrote:
> > >
> > > :~>Legacy devices for the ISA bus won't even fit on my last three
> > > :~>mobos, and PnP was rightly named "plug N' Pray" by most techs
> > > :~>I know, IMHO, so I am not very worried about the 3c509B I just
> > > :~>rid myself of.
> > >
> > > ISA PnP? Uff. No wonder it does not work properly: Pixel denies the
> > > existence of these peskies. :-/
> > >
> > > ISA PnP devices == trouble, and while this particular card (well,
> > > actually most of them) may be made to work, my advice is to trow them
> > > away: One day we may have a good support for winmodems, but I doubt that
> > > we will ever see really good (==no problems) support for ISA PnP.
> >
> >Oh, I wouldn't quite say so: I've been using an ISA PNP card
> >(SB AWE 64) in Linux for quite a long time (several years)
> >and the user-mode isapnp utility works quite well for my taste.
> >OTOH, I never quite got the hang of the PNP stuff (incl ISA PNP)
> >now integrated in 2.3 and even lately in 2.2.x kernels, so
> >I still de-activate it in the kernel and use the user-mode stuff.
> >
> >One thing I agree, though, is that it is probably hopeless to make
> >this stuff work properly in an _install_ program.
> >In other words, it does work, but one has to invest in a little
> >RTFM first ...
> >
> >Also, I agree that in a few more months (?) the question will
> >become irrelevant as more and more new mobos don't even _have_
> >any ISA slot ...
> >
> >
> >--
> >Jean-Louis Debert[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >74 Annemasse  France
> >old Linux fan
> >
> 
> 
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> 

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Mark Weaver]

hmm...I think someone forgot to tell that to my 3Com
USRobotics 56K ISA modem. It runs beautifully in both Winblows and
Linux. In fact, Linux is the very reason I bought this particular
model. Because I knew that since it was a REAL hardware modem it would
work just fine in Linux. And it does. I haven't had a lick of trouble with
it in either Redhat 6.1, 6.2 and Linux Mandrake 7.0 and 7.1. Runs great in
all of them. Now, on the other hand if someone were to ask me to use a PCI
device I would get sick all over the place.

-- 
Mark

I love my Linux Box...
REASON # 2 ...X-windows is just a suedonym.
Registered Linux user # 182496

On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Denis Havlik wrote:

> :~>Legacy devices for the ISA bus won't even fit on my last three
> :~>mobos, and PnP was rightly named "plug N' Pray" by most techs
> :~>I know, IMHO, so I am not very worried about the 3c509B I just
> :~>rid myself of.
> 
> ISA PnP? Uff. No wonder it does not work properly: Pixel denies the
> existence of these peskies. :-/
> 
> ISA PnP devices == trouble, and while this particular card (well,
> actually most of them) may be made to work, my advice is to trow them
> away: One day we may have a good support for winmodems, but I doubt that
> we will ever see really good (==no problems) support for ISA PnP. 
> 
> cu
>   Denis
> 

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[bobby dowling]

Improvements?



>From: "Hoyt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1
>Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:34:33 -0400
>Received: from [216.71.84.35] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id 
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><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Sarang Lakare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 3:48 PM
>Subject: Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1
>
>
> > I am always confused .. why do things work with 7.0 and not with 7.1..
>this
> > is really strange!
> >
>
>Improvements in the install scripts. 8)
>
>Hoyt
>
>


Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Hoyt]

- Original Message -
From: "Sarang Lakare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1


> I am always confused .. why do things work with 7.0 and not with 7.1..
this
> is really strange!
>

Improvements in the install scripts. 8)

Hoyt

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Hoyt]

- Original Message -
From: "bobby dowling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1


>
> In regards to this isa device stuff, I have an isa 56.6 us robotics modem
> that doesn't seem to be detected.  Linuxconf won't query it, kudzu won't
> detect it, and kppp can't use it.
>
> The weird thing is that Mandrake 7.0 detected it fine with Kudzu.
>
> Any suggestions ...maybe disable plug 'n play in kernel?
>


What does setserial return when you query the port? Is it correct for the
modem? If not, try using setserial to configure it properly.

Hoyt

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Sarang Lakare]

I am always confused .. why do things work with 7.0 and not with 7.1.. this
is really strange!

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[bobby dowling]

In regards to this isa device stuff, I have an isa 56.6 us robotics modem 
that doesn't seem to be detected.  Linuxconf won't query it, kudzu won't 
detect it, and kppp can't use it.

The weird thing is that Mandrake 7.0 detected it fine with Kudzu.

Any suggestions ...maybe disable plug 'n play in kernel?


>From: Jean-Louis Debert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1
>Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:33:31 +0200
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Received: from [216.71.84.35] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id 
>MHotMailBB32D59300ACD821979DD847542311950; Mon Jul 10 01:34:27 2000
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>03:34:21 -0500
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>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jul 10 01:35:12 2000
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><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>
>Denis Havlik wrote:
> >
> > :~>Legacy devices for the ISA bus won't even fit on my last three
> > :~>mobos, and PnP was rightly named "plug N' Pray" by most techs
> > :~>I know, IMHO, so I am not very worried about the 3c509B I just
> > :~>rid myself of.
> >
> > ISA PnP? Uff. No wonder it does not work properly: Pixel denies the
> > existence of these peskies. :-/
> >
> > ISA PnP devices == trouble, and while this particular card (well,
> > actually most of them) may be made to work, my advice is to trow them
> > away: One day we may have a good support for winmodems, but I doubt that
> > we will ever see really good (==no problems) support for ISA PnP.
>
>Oh, I wouldn't quite say so: I've been using an ISA PNP card
>(SB AWE 64) in Linux for quite a long time (several years)
>and the user-mode isapnp utility works quite well for my taste.
>OTOH, I never quite got the hang of the PNP stuff (incl ISA PNP)
>now integrated in 2.3 and even lately in 2.2.x kernels, so
>I still de-activate it in the kernel and use the user-mode stuff.
>
>One thing I agree, though, is that it is probably hopeless to make
>this stuff work properly in an _install_ program.
>In other words, it does work, but one has to invest in a little
>RTFM first ...
>
>Also, I agree that in a few more months (?) the question will
>become irrelevant as more and more new mobos don't even _have_
>any ISA slot ...
>
>
>--
>Jean-Louis Debert[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>74 Annemasse  France
>old Linux fan
>


Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Ken Thompson]

On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, you wrote:
> :~>Legacy devices for the ISA bus won't even fit on my last three
> :~>mobos, and PnP was rightly named "plug N' Pray" by most techs
> :~>I know, IMHO, so I am not very worried about the 3c509B I just
> :~>rid myself of.
> 
> ISA PnP? Uff. No wonder it does not work properly: Pixel denies the
> existence of these peskies. :-/
> 
> ISA PnP devices == trouble, and while this particular card (well,
> actually most of them) may be made to work, my advice is to trow them
> away: One day we may have a good support for winmodems, but I doubt that
> we will ever see really good (==no problems) support for ISA PnP. 
> 
> cu
>   Denis
> -- 
> -
> Dr. Denis Havlik
> Mandrakesoft||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Quality Assurance  (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
> ---oOO--(_)--OOo-
> visit our new discusion forum: http://forum.mandrakesoft.com

Isa-PnP seems to work OK for me, using Creative cards -AWE32 and AWE64.
The only thing I have to do after install is run "sndconfig" to get it working..
I've had success with the CS4232 and the OPL2&3 Yamaha as well.
Other than sound cards, I've had success with 3C509x NIC's and older NE2K ISA
cards, too.
 -- 
Ken Thompson
Electrocom Computer Services
1801 Wayne Dr. 
Payette, Idaho 83661
Ph. (208) 642-7101 (888) 642-7101
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.nwaa.com
Computer Sales - Service and Repair
Internet Web Site Design

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Jean-Louis Debert]

Denis Havlik wrote:
> 
> :~>Legacy devices for the ISA bus won't even fit on my last three
> :~>mobos, and PnP was rightly named "plug N' Pray" by most techs
> :~>I know, IMHO, so I am not very worried about the 3c509B I just
> :~>rid myself of.
> 
> ISA PnP? Uff. No wonder it does not work properly: Pixel denies the
> existence of these peskies. :-/
> 
> ISA PnP devices == trouble, and while this particular card (well,
> actually most of them) may be made to work, my advice is to trow them
> away: One day we may have a good support for winmodems, but I doubt that
> we will ever see really good (==no problems) support for ISA PnP.

Oh, I wouldn't quite say so: I've been using an ISA PNP card
(SB AWE 64) in Linux for quite a long time (several years)
and the user-mode isapnp utility works quite well for my taste.
OTOH, I never quite got the hang of the PNP stuff (incl ISA PNP)
now integrated in 2.3 and even lately in 2.2.x kernels, so
I still de-activate it in the kernel and use the user-mode stuff.

One thing I agree, though, is that it is probably hopeless to make
this stuff work properly in an _install_ program.
In other words, it does work, but one has to invest in a little 
RTFM first ...

Also, I agree that in a few more months (?) the question will
become irrelevant as more and more new mobos don't even _have_
any ISA slot ...

 
-- 
Jean-Louis Debert[EMAIL PROTECTED]
74 Annemasse  France
old Linux fan

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Denis Havlik]

:~>Legacy devices for the ISA bus won't even fit on my last three
:~>mobos, and PnP was rightly named "plug N' Pray" by most techs
:~>I know, IMHO, so I am not very worried about the 3c509B I just
:~>rid myself of.

ISA PnP? Uff. No wonder it does not work properly: Pixel denies the
existence of these peskies. :-/

ISA PnP devices == trouble, and while this particular card (well,
actually most of them) may be made to work, my advice is to trow them
away: One day we may have a good support for winmodems, but I doubt that
we will ever see really good (==no problems) support for ISA PnP. 

cu
Denis
-- 
-
Dr. Denis Havlik
Mandrakesoft||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Quality Assurance  (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
---oOO--(_)--OOo-
visit our new discusion forum: http://forum.mandrakesoft.com 

RE: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[bobby dowling]

True.  The Windows installation is typically easier than *any* linux distro, 
even the almighty (and it is, IMHO) Mandrake.

Consider the fact that Microsoft spends $$ on employees whose sole 
purpose is to understand how the computer disinclined people think.  
Consider the fact that Microsoft founded itself with the purpose of 
producing an OS that *anyone* can install and use on *any* machine (i386 
based mostly).

Unix did not start out with that purpose and Linux is just realizing this 
purpose, but doesn't have the financial backing to support it the way 
Microsoft has.

Linux is for sure on the way however, and Mandrake (IMHO) is really helping 
to push this.


>From: "Gil Baron W0MN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1
>Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 06:17:11 -0500
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Received: from [216.71.84.35] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id 
>MHotMailBB31D3DD006ED82197E8D847542304BB0; Sun Jul 09 07:14:54 2000
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>
>You are lucky if that is all you have.
>I cannot install because it does not find xfree86 RPM. I amusing the
>downloaded iso images and that is what I get and I am then dead, no 
>xfree86,
>no install.
>Anybody have a solution?
>
>You are totally correct about Windows install being VASTLY better!
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-
> > From: Bob Puff@NLE [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 9:38 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1
> >
> >
> > Hello Dennis,
> >
> > > No. Our beta-testing period for 7.1 was 3-4 x longer than for 7.0, and
> > > there was nothing even near to "abrupt cesation" of testing.
> > There were 3
> > > public betas, and we did not receive any "critical bug reports" for 
>the
> > > third one, so we had all the reason to beleive that 7.1 will be a good
> > > product (and it is).
> > > but none are really "show stoppers" (workarounds exist), and I
> > still think
> > > that overal quality of 7.1 is miles better than 7.0, or any previous
> > > Mandrake release:
> >
> > Well, as someone who had a little experience with 6.1, and
> > recently did several installs of 7.1 (never tried 7.0), I would
> > beg to differ with you big time.  There are some significant bugs
> > dealing mostly with the install that I have posted here, but no
> > one has responded.  And yes, they will keep 7.1 from installing!
> > Let me see if I can recall these:
> >
> > 1. The CDROM bug: once you get to where it wants disk #2, the
> > cdrom drive will not eject a disk.  No way whatsoever to change
> > disks.  (I did manage to change the disk by powering down the
> > CDROM drive, but then Linux wouldn't recognize it.  Happened with
> > two out of four computers.
> >
> > 2. The way to start the install program from a DOS prompt is
> > broken - doesn't work at all.
> >
> > 3. The install program starts up running in high resolution, if
> > it sees you have a card that can do it.  Unfortunately, it
> > doesn't ask if your monitor can support it, and thus my screen
> > turned to hash, and I was unable to install the program.
> > (Thankfully I had a multisync monitor on another system that I
> > robbed long enough to do the install.)  THis should default to
> > 640x480, and ask / let you try higher rez if you want.
> >
> > 4. Setup properly detected my 3com 509 network card, then set up
> > the wrong drivers for it!  (Had t

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Ron Stodden]

Ron Stodden wrote:
> 
> Denis Havlik wrote:
> 
> > No. Our beta-testing period for 7.1 was 3-4 x longer than for 7.0, and
> > there was nothing even near to "abrupt cesation" of testing. There were 3
> > public betas, and we did not receive any "critical bug reports" for the
> > third one, so we had all the reason to beleive that 7.1 will be a good
> > product (and it is).
> 
> Oh, dear, where have you been?   I reported one show-stopper on beta
> 3, and labelled my message about in in the cooker mailing list as
> "SHOW STOPPER".  As usual, there was no response from Mandrake, and
> the release proceeded regardless.   This is a damning indictment of
> your procedures, so let us please have no more delusional postings
> such as the parent to this message.   Mandrake does not run any
> activity which could rightly be called a beta test - that's a simple
> fact!   What was being tested was changing nearly every day!

Correction to my last:

The show-stopper reported the installer's failure to install
nfs-utils, which contains exportfs, without which no mount points can
be exported for use by specified other machines on the network.

An attempt to manually install the nfs-utils RPM leads to reporting
of a conflict with the quota RPM.

This did produce a response from Mandrake's Warly on 18th June:

"Yes you r right nfs-utils conflicts with quota, this gonna be
corrected.

"This is our fault but it is hard to test all the combination of
installed packages, and this is why you, cooker members, are so
precious to us."

However, Mandrake Updates does not even yet include any fix for
either RPM, so 7.1 remains unsuitable for installing on any machine
where networking is required.  This is not the only problem with
networking - the nfs daemon never gets started is another show
stopper.  There are more.

Show stoppers?   Denis Havlik responsibly decides, it seems, but does
not bother to communicate his decisions or tolerate review of them.

-- 

Regards,

Ron. [AU] - sent by Mandrake Linux.

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Ron Stodden]

Denis Havlik wrote:

> No. Our beta-testing period for 7.1 was 3-4 x longer than for 7.0, and
> there was nothing even near to "abrupt cesation" of testing. There were 3
> public betas, and we did not receive any "critical bug reports" for the
> third one, so we had all the reason to beleive that 7.1 will be a good
> product (and it is).

Oh, dear, where have you been?   I reported one show-stopper on beta
3, and labelled my message about in in the cooker mailing list as
"SHOW STOPPER".  As usual, there was no response from Mandrake, and
the release proceeded regardless.   This is a damning indictment of
your procedures, so let us please have no more delusional postings
such as the parent to this message.   Mandrake does not run any
activity which could rightly be called a beta test - that's a simple
fact!   What was being tested was changing nearly every day!

-- 

Regards,

Ron. [AU] - sent by Mandrake Linux.

RE: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Mark Weaver]

Your best bet would be to order the CD's from one of the many places on
the net that you can get them at a real cheap price.

There's a guy on the Newbie list that is selling them for $6.50 for the
set and you can get them at Cheapbytes also. I bought the install
& extension CD's for #3.99. Seven days later I was installing them on my
system.

Here's the URL for Cheapbytes: http://www.cheapbytes.com

-- 
Mark

I love my Linux Box...
REASON # 2 ...X-windows is just a suedonym.
Registered Linux user # 182496

On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Gil Baron W0MN wrote:

> You are lucky if that is all you have.
> I cannot install because it does not find xfree86 RPM. I amusing the
> downloaded iso images and that is what I get and I am then dead, no xfree86,
> no install.
> Anybody have a solution?
> 
> You are totally correct about Windows install being VASTLY better!
> 
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Bob Puff@NLE [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 9:38 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1
> >
> >
> > Hello Dennis,
> >
> > > No. Our beta-testing period for 7.1 was 3-4 x longer than for 7.0, and
> > > there was nothing even near to "abrupt cesation" of testing.
> > There were 3
> > > public betas, and we did not receive any "critical bug reports" for the
> > > third one, so we had all the reason to beleive that 7.1 will be a good
> > > product (and it is).
> > > but none are really "show stoppers" (workarounds exist), and I
> > still think
> > > that overal quality of 7.1 is miles better than 7.0, or any previous
> > > Mandrake release:
> >
> > Well, as someone who had a little experience with 6.1, and
> > recently did several installs of 7.1 (never tried 7.0), I would
> > beg to differ with you big time.  There are some significant bugs
> > dealing mostly with the install that I have posted here, but no
> > one has responded.  And yes, they will keep 7.1 from installing!
> > Let me see if I can recall these:
> >
> > 1. The CDROM bug: once you get to where it wants disk #2, the
> > cdrom drive will not eject a disk.  No way whatsoever to change
> > disks.  (I did manage to change the disk by powering down the
> > CDROM drive, but then Linux wouldn't recognize it.  Happened with
> > two out of four computers.
> >
> > 2. The way to start the install program from a DOS prompt is
> > broken - doesn't work at all.
> >
> > 3. The install program starts up running in high resolution, if
> > it sees you have a card that can do it.  Unfortunately, it
> > doesn't ask if your monitor can support it, and thus my screen
> > turned to hash, and I was unable to install the program.
> > (Thankfully I had a multisync monitor on another system that I
> > robbed long enough to do the install.)  THis should default to
> > 640x480, and ask / let you try higher rez if you want.
> >
> > 4. Setup properly detected my 3com 509 network card, then set up
> > the wrong drivers for it!  (Had to change from whatever it had to
> > the 3com 509 driver, what a concept.)
> >
> > 5. Setup did not install the 75dpi or 100dpi fonts, which gave me
> > all sorts of error messages when X tried to start.
> >
> > 6. My monitor type and card must have been screwed up somewhere
> > in the detection, as I couldn't even get 256 colors at 640x480
> > working on one system.  When I tried running the XF86setup, it
> > core dumps when you tell it to list devices.
> >
> > 7. "Automatic setup" is definitely not what anyone should use.
> > It skips many important steps.  Also installs junk packages, and
> > doesn't install ones that should be installed by default (IMHO).
> >
> > 8. The KDE/X stuff looks like it was pre-configured for 1024x768
> > rez.  WHen you're in 640x480, some things are off the screen, and
> > other boxes are so large you can't even get to an OK or CANCEL
> > button!  Even in Win95, it defaults to the lowest common
> > denominator, and every window is accessible.
> >
> > I think that any of these things would cause a newbie to give up,
> > if they didn't have persistence.  I am not a Win95 (or microsoft)
> > fan, but for the average user, their setup works a whole lot
> > better.  From reading the comments here, it seems that 7.0 didn't
> > have some of the big nasty bugs that 7.1 has.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> 
> 

RE: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Gil Baron W0MN]

You are lucky if that is all you have.
I cannot install because it does not find xfree86 RPM. I amusing the
downloaded iso images and that is what I get and I am then dead, no xfree86,
no install.
Anybody have a solution?

You are totally correct about Windows install being VASTLY better!



> -Original Message-
> From: Bob Puff@NLE [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 9:38 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1
>
>
> Hello Dennis,
>
> > No. Our beta-testing period for 7.1 was 3-4 x longer than for 7.0, and
> > there was nothing even near to "abrupt cesation" of testing.
> There were 3
> > public betas, and we did not receive any "critical bug reports" for the
> > third one, so we had all the reason to beleive that 7.1 will be a good
> > product (and it is).
> > but none are really "show stoppers" (workarounds exist), and I
> still think
> > that overal quality of 7.1 is miles better than 7.0, or any previous
> > Mandrake release:
>
> Well, as someone who had a little experience with 6.1, and
> recently did several installs of 7.1 (never tried 7.0), I would
> beg to differ with you big time.  There are some significant bugs
> dealing mostly with the install that I have posted here, but no
> one has responded.  And yes, they will keep 7.1 from installing!
> Let me see if I can recall these:
>
> 1. The CDROM bug: once you get to where it wants disk #2, the
> cdrom drive will not eject a disk.  No way whatsoever to change
> disks.  (I did manage to change the disk by powering down the
> CDROM drive, but then Linux wouldn't recognize it.  Happened with
> two out of four computers.
>
> 2. The way to start the install program from a DOS prompt is
> broken - doesn't work at all.
>
> 3. The install program starts up running in high resolution, if
> it sees you have a card that can do it.  Unfortunately, it
> doesn't ask if your monitor can support it, and thus my screen
> turned to hash, and I was unable to install the program.
> (Thankfully I had a multisync monitor on another system that I
> robbed long enough to do the install.)  THis should default to
> 640x480, and ask / let you try higher rez if you want.
>
> 4. Setup properly detected my 3com 509 network card, then set up
> the wrong drivers for it!  (Had to change from whatever it had to
> the 3com 509 driver, what a concept.)
>
> 5. Setup did not install the 75dpi or 100dpi fonts, which gave me
> all sorts of error messages when X tried to start.
>
> 6. My monitor type and card must have been screwed up somewhere
> in the detection, as I couldn't even get 256 colors at 640x480
> working on one system.  When I tried running the XF86setup, it
> core dumps when you tell it to list devices.
>
> 7. "Automatic setup" is definitely not what anyone should use.
> It skips many important steps.  Also installs junk packages, and
> doesn't install ones that should be installed by default (IMHO).
>
> 8. The KDE/X stuff looks like it was pre-configured for 1024x768
> rez.  WHen you're in 640x480, some things are off the screen, and
> other boxes are so large you can't even get to an OK or CANCEL
> button!  Even in Win95, it defaults to the lowest common
> denominator, and every window is accessible.
>
> I think that any of these things would cause a newbie to give up,
> if they didn't have persistence.  I am not a Win95 (or microsoft)
> fan, but for the average user, their setup works a whole lot
> better.  From reading the comments here, it seems that 7.0 didn't
> have some of the big nasty bugs that 7.1 has.
>
> Bob
>

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Bob [EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Hello Dennis,

> No. Our beta-testing period for 7.1 was 3-4 x longer than for 7.0, and
> there was nothing even near to "abrupt cesation" of testing. There were 3
> public betas, and we did not receive any "critical bug reports" for the
> third one, so we had all the reason to beleive that 7.1 will be a good
> product (and it is).
> but none are really "show stoppers" (workarounds exist), and I still think
> that overal quality of 7.1 is miles better than 7.0, or any previous
> Mandrake release: 

Well, as someone who had a little experience with 6.1, and recently did several 
installs of 7.1 (never tried 7.0), I would beg to differ with you big time.  There are 
some significant bugs dealing mostly with the install that I have posted here, but no 
one has responded.  And yes, they will keep 7.1 from installing!  Let me see if I can 
recall these:

1. The CDROM bug: once you get to where it wants disk #2, the cdrom drive will not 
eject a disk.  No way whatsoever to change disks.  (I did manage to change the disk by 
powering down the CDROM drive, but then Linux wouldn't recognize it.  Happened with 
two out of four computers.

2. The way to start the install program from a DOS prompt is broken - doesn't work at 
all.

3. The install program starts up running in high resolution, if it sees you have a 
card that can do it.  Unfortunately, it doesn't ask if your monitor can support it, 
and thus my screen turned to hash, and I was unable to install the program.  
(Thankfully I had a multisync monitor on another system that I robbed long enough to 
do the install.)  THis should default to 640x480, and ask / let you try higher rez if 
you want.

4. Setup properly detected my 3com 509 network card, then set up the wrong drivers for 
it!  (Had to change from whatever it had to the 3com 509 driver, what a concept.)

5. Setup did not install the 75dpi or 100dpi fonts, which gave me all sorts of error 
messages when X tried to start.

6. My monitor type and card must have been screwed up somewhere in the detection, as I 
couldn't even get 256 colors at 640x480 working on one system.  When I tried running 
the XF86setup, it core dumps when you tell it to list devices.

7. "Automatic setup" is definitely not what anyone should use.  It skips many 
important steps.  Also installs junk packages, and doesn't install ones that should be 
installed by default (IMHO).

8. The KDE/X stuff looks like it was pre-configured for 1024x768 rez.  WHen you're in 
640x480, some things are off the screen, and other boxes are so large you can't even 
get to an OK or CANCEL button!  Even in Win95, it defaults to the lowest common 
denominator, and every window is accessible.

I think that any of these things would cause a newbie to give up, if they didn't have 
persistence.  I am not a Win95 (or microsoft) fan, but for the average user, their 
setup works a whole lot better.  From reading the comments here, it seems that 7.0 
didn't have some of the big nasty bugs that 7.1 has.

Bob

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Civileme]

-Original Message-
From: Denis Havlik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Bob Puff@NLE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: Expert list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Install &
hardware discussions <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sunday, July 09, 2000 1:21 AM
Subject: Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1


>On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, Bob Puff@NLE wrote:
>
>:~>> No. Our beta-testing period for 7.1 was 3-4 x longer
than for 7.0, and
>:~>> there was nothing even near to "abrupt cesation" of
testing. There were 3
>:~>> public betas, and we did not receive any "critical bug
reports" for the
>:~>> third one, so we had all the reason to beleive that 7.1
will be a good
>:~>> product (and it is).
>:~>> but none are really "show stoppers" (workarounds exist),
and I still think
>:~>> that overal quality of 7.1 is miles better than 7.0, or
any previous
>:~>> Mandrake release:
>:~>
>:~>Well, as someone who had a little experience with 6.1, and
recently did several installs of 7.1 (never tried 7.0), I
would beg to differ with you big time.  There are some
significant bugs dealing mostly with the install that I have
posted here, but no one has responded.  And yes, they will
keep 7.1 from installing!  Let me see if I can recall these:
>:~>
>:~>1. The CDROM bug: once you get to where it wants disk #2,
the cdrom drive will not eject a disk.  No way whatsoever to
change disks.  (I did manage to change the disk by powering
down the CDROM drive, but then Linux wouldn't recognize it.
Happened with two out of four computers.
>
>CDROM is supposed to auto eject. It did so on every PC i
tried, and on
>every PC we had in the company. I admitt that this is
unpleasant, but 1-st
>CD is enough for basic install, and you can always add
packages later.
>
>:~>2. The way to start the install program from a DOS prompt
is broken - doesn't work at all.
>
>Umpf? Does here, AFAIK. Anyone else has this problem?
>
>:~>3. The install program starts up running in high
resolution, if it sees you have a card that can do it.
Unfortunately, it doesn't ask if your monitor can support it,
and thus my screen turned to hash, and I was unable to install
the program.  (Thankfully I had a multisync monitor on another
system that I robbed long enough to do the install.)  THis
should default to 640x480, and ask / let you try higher rez if
you want.
>
>RTFD: Press F1 in the beginning of the install for help, will
you?
>
>http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/demos/Demo/Mandrake7.1/Insta
ll/pages/install1.php3
>
>If I recall it correctly, option is called "vgalow"
>
>:~>4. Setup properly detected my 3com 509 network card, then
set up the wrong drivers for it!  (Had to change from whatever
it had to the 3com 509 driver, what a concept.)
>
>Send the output of lspcidrake, and we'll fix this. This is
really weird.
>
>:~>5. Setup did not install the 75dpi or 100dpi fonts, which
gave me all sorts of error messages when X tried to start.
>
>This is strange. I installed this distro "more than once",
and NEVER got
>any problems with fonts. What have you done to our poor
installer prog?
>
>:~>6. My monitor type and card must have been screwed up
somewhere in the detection, as I couldn't even get 256 colors
at 640x480 working on one system.  When I tried running the
XF86setup, it core dumps when you tell it to list devices.
>
>Would it help to tell us: "my monitor (type XY, specs
such-and-such) and
>VGA-card (type ZX, output of lspcidrake)"... Yup, it would.
>
>:~>7. "Automatic setup" is definitely not what anyone should
use.
>>It skips many important steps.  Also installs junk packages,
and doesn't
>>install ones that should be installed by default (IMHO).
>
>Automatic setup has only one big minus: It does not configure
>networking. Other than that, it is quite nice for what it is
supposed to
>do: install a cute desktop for unexperienced users. In next
version
>(7.2?), this install type will install networking, and it
will also ask
>people how much "junk" they want installed
("minimal/best-of/everything
>except servers").
>
>We can argue about "installs junk/does not install important"
if you tell
>me what is junk, and what is important... Even better: Take a
look at
>numbers in depslist, change those you think should be changed
and send to
>me.
>
>:~>8. The KDE/X stuff looks like it was pre-configured for
1024x768 rez.  WHen you're in 640x480, some things are off the
screen,
>>and other boxes are so large you can't even get to an OK or
CANCEL
>>button!  Even in Win95, it defaults to the lowest common
denominator, and
>>every window is accessible.

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Denis Havlik]

On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, Bob Puff@NLE wrote:

:~>> No. Our beta-testing period for 7.1 was 3-4 x longer than for 7.0, and
:~>> there was nothing even near to "abrupt cesation" of testing. There were 3
:~>> public betas, and we did not receive any "critical bug reports" for the
:~>> third one, so we had all the reason to beleive that 7.1 will be a good
:~>> product (and it is).
:~>> but none are really "show stoppers" (workarounds exist), and I still think
:~>> that overal quality of 7.1 is miles better than 7.0, or any previous
:~>> Mandrake release: 
:~>
:~>Well, as someone who had a little experience with 6.1, and recently did several 
:installs of 7.1 (never tried 7.0), I would beg to differ with you big time.  There 
:are some significant bugs dealing mostly with the install that I have posted here, 
:but no one has responded.  And yes, they will keep 7.1 from installing!  Let me see 
:if I can recall these:
:~>
:~>1. The CDROM bug: once you get to where it wants disk #2, the cdrom drive will not 
:eject a disk.  No way whatsoever to change disks.  (I did manage to change the disk 
:by powering down the CDROM drive, but then Linux wouldn't recognize it.  Happened 
:with two out of four computers.

CDROM is supposed to auto eject. It did so on every PC i tried, and on
every PC we had in the company. I admitt that this is unpleasant, but 1-st
CD is enough for basic install, and you can always add packages later. 
 
:~>2. The way to start the install program from a DOS prompt is broken - doesn't work 
:at all.

Umpf? Does here, AFAIK. Anyone else has this problem?

:~>3. The install program starts up running in high resolution, if it sees you have a 
:card that can do it.  Unfortunately, it doesn't ask if your monitor can support it, 
:and thus my screen turned to hash, and I was unable to install the program.  
:(Thankfully I had a multisync monitor on another system that I robbed long enough to 
:do the install.)  THis should default to 640x480, and ask / let you try higher rez if 
:you want.

RTFD: Press F1 in the beginning of the install for help, will you?

http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/demos/Demo/Mandrake7.1/Install/pages/install1.php3

If I recall it correctly, option is called "vgalow"

:~>4. Setup properly detected my 3com 509 network card, then set up the wrong drivers 
:for it!  (Had to change from whatever it had to the 3com 509 driver, what a concept.)

Send the output of lspcidrake, and we'll fix this. This is really weird.

:~>5. Setup did not install the 75dpi or 100dpi fonts, which gave me all sorts of 
:error messages when X tried to start.

This is strange. I installed this distro "more than once", and NEVER got
any problems with fonts. What have you done to our poor installer prog?

:~>6. My monitor type and card must have been screwed up somewhere in the detection, 
:as I couldn't even get 256 colors at 640x480 working on one system.  When I tried 
:running the XF86setup, it core dumps when you tell it to list devices.

Would it help to tell us: "my monitor (type XY, specs such-and-such) and
VGA-card (type ZX, output of lspcidrake)"... Yup, it would.  

:~>7. "Automatic setup" is definitely not what anyone should use.  
>It skips many important steps.  Also installs junk packages, and doesn't
>install ones that should be installed by default (IMHO).

Automatic setup has only one big minus: It does not configure
networking. Other than that, it is quite nice for what it is supposed to
do: install a cute desktop for unexperienced users. In next version
(7.2?), this install type will install networking, and it will also ask
people how much "junk" they want installed ("minimal/best-of/everything
except servers").   

We can argue about "installs junk/does not install important" if you tell
me what is junk, and what is important... Even better: Take a look at
numbers in depslist, change those you think should be changed and send to
me.  

:~>8. The KDE/X stuff looks like it was pre-configured for 1024x768 rez.  WHen you're 
:in 640x480, some things are off the screen, 
>and other boxes are so large you can't even get to an OK or CANCEL
>button!  Even in Win95, it defaults to the lowest common denominator, and
>every window is accessible.

Windows also default to i386 architecture, we do not. We are definitively
not going to optimize the KDE for 640x480. (Is there some simple way to
get a different desktop if resolution is small?)   

:~>I think that any of these things would cause a newbie to give up, if
>they didn't have persistence.  I am not a Win95 (or microsoft) fan, but
>for the average user, their setup works a whole lot better.  From reading
>the comments here, it seems that 7.0 didn't have some of the big nasty
>bugs that 7.1 has.

Sorry to disapoint you, but I have a feeling that your hardware is
quite unique. Of all the "big nasty bugs" you numbered, only "2" is likely
to affect many people (we'll have to re-check this one, thx), and
"4" falls into "very unpleasant gaf" category (

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Denis Havlik]

:~>Second, knowing the long production schedules of magazines and of
:~>mass-producing CD's I was curious to know if theses schedules were the
:~>driving force behind the abrupt cessation of the beta testing and the
:~>subsequent release of 7.1 in early July.

No. Our beta-testing period for 7.1 was 3-4 x longer than for 7.0, and
there was nothing even near to "abrupt cesation" of testing. There were 3
public betas, and we did not receive any "critical bug reports" for the
third one, so we had all the reason to beleive that 7.1 will be a good
product (and it is).

Of coarse, as soon as we announced a "final" version, bug reports started
pooring in again, but this is unfortunately "normal". Some of
these bugs are really unpleasant, for instance:

* / partition must be < 8GB (drakX bug)
* problems with some SCSI cards (but better overal SCSI support)
* Upgrade times 2-3 h, (and in extreme cases +=12h!) :-\
* several security updates even before we were able to ship CD-s :-((

but none are really "show stoppers" (workarounds exist), and I still think
that overal quality of 7.1 is miles better than 7.0, or any previous
Mandrake release: 

- hardware support has improved immensly (for instance UDMA66 & USB
support)
- upgrade actually works quite nicely now (yes, it is slow)
- new menu system is much friendlier than the old one.
- new gnome
- many many small improvements everywhere in the system, which you may not
even notice in the beginning. Three quick examples: "supermount" 
enable/disable script is much robuster in 7.1, Xsession is ssh-avare, and
"gimp" now accepts Xscanimage plugin.   

In addition: there is no speciall connection between Mandrake and "Maximum
linux" i know of, and even if there were one I would not accept the idea
of stopping a beta testing period because a magazine wants to press the
CD-s. Neither would Jerome nor Warly (3 musketiers of QA team), and Jean
Loup would probably sooner jump from the bridge than allow such nonsense.

Fact is: Beta testing period was long compared to life-span of the
product, we all worked like mad, and at the end we were half-dead but
happy with 7.1. Yes sure, there are still bugs left, but there
are limits to what can do. 

yours
Denis
-- 
-
Dr. Denis Havlik
Mandrakesoft||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Quality Assurance  (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
---oOO--(_)--OOo-
visit our new discusion forum: http://forum.mandrakesoft.com 

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Wolfgang Bornath]

On Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 17:43 -0400, Hoyt wrote:
 
> Second, knowing the long production schedules of magazines and of
> mass-producing CD's I was curious to know if theses schedules were the
> driving force behind the abrupt cessation of the beta testing and the
> subsequent release of 7.1 in early July.

That I don't know.
Maybe I learn something on July 12. The German edition of 7.1 is
due on July 07 and LinuxUser (child of German Linux Magazin)
will have a CD with 7.1. So I'll have a close look because I
have the GPL-CD right here at hand.

But if you really want to compare have a look on the website.
There are detailed lists of all the apps on the vaious CDs.

wobo
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Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Wolfgang Bornath]

On Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 17:18 -0400, John Aldrich wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Jul 2000, you wrote:
> > 
> > Hope I made myself clear, sorry, I'm in a foreign language here.
> > 
> I think your english is fine. :-)
>   John

Maybe because I learned it in a German school...

SCNR! 

wobo
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Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Hoyt]

- Original Message -
From: "Wolfgang Bornath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1


>
> Hope I made myself clear, sorry, I'm in a foreign language here.
>

Yes, I understand what you are saying. I was curious if the single CD was
different than the first CD of the official set.  I have loaned out my 7.1
CD or I could easily compare.

Second, knowing the long production schedules of magazines and of
mass-producing CD's I was curious to know if theses schedules were the
driving force behind the abrupt cessation of the beta testing and the
subsequent release of 7.1 in early July.

Hoyt

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[John Aldrich]

On Mon, 03 Jul 2000, you wrote:
> 
> Hope I made myself clear, sorry, I'm in a foreign language here.
> 
I think your english is fine. :-)
John

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Wolfgang Bornath]

On Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 11:22 -0400, Hoyt wrote:
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Wolfgang Bornath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 10:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1
> 
> 
> > On Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 09:54 -0400, Hoyt wrote:
> > > The magazine MaximumLinux (July/August) has a version of Mandrake 7.1
> > > included with it. It states that some of the applications are not
> included.
> > > They had great success with the  7.0 version that was inlcuded with
> their
> > > first issue, so what's the story behind this special version? Also, was
> this
> > > the reason that the launch of 7.1 seemed so abrupt? So they could get
> the CD
> > > pressed in time for distribution?
> >
> > I'm not sure about it but could it be that the missing
> > applications are on the 2. CD? Until 7.0 we had only one GPL CD,
> > now the downloadable Software is on 2 CDs. Maybe some of the
> > apps being on the single CD before now are on the second CD
> > which is not on the MaximumLinux edition.
> >
> 
>  No, it's a single CD

Yes, maybe I did not make it clear enough. What I was trying to
say:
Until 7.0 the GPL-(Downloadable)Edition was on one single disk.
That was the thing MaximumLinux had in their issue then.
Now MaximumLinux still puts one single CD into their issue but
the downloadable version of Mandrake 7.1 consists of 2 CDs
(iso-files that is). Because of the increased size of the
installation routine some apps which were on the single CD on
7.0 now are on the second CD in 7.1

Hope I made myself clear, sorry, I'm in a foreign language here.

wobo
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Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[John Aldrich]

On Mon, 03 Jul 2000, you wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure about it but could it be that the missing
> > applications are on the 2. CD? Until 7.0 we had only one GPL CD,
> > now the downloadable Software is on 2 CDs. Maybe some of the
> > apps being on the single CD before now are on the second CD
> > which is not on the MaximumLinux edition.
> >
> 
>  No, it's a single CD
> 
I think what was meant was that the Mandrake distro now spans TWO
disks, and the Maximum Linux version, being a single-disk, didn't
have the apps which are on the second disk of the "real" Mandrake
distro.
John

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Hoyt]

- Original Message -
From: "Wolfgang Bornath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1


> On Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 09:54 -0400, Hoyt wrote:
> > The magazine MaximumLinux (July/August) has a version of Mandrake 7.1
> > included with it. It states that some of the applications are not
included.
> > They had great success with the  7.0 version that was inlcuded with
their
> > first issue, so what's the story behind this special version? Also, was
this
> > the reason that the launch of 7.1 seemed so abrupt? So they could get
the CD
> > pressed in time for distribution?
>
> I'm not sure about it but could it be that the missing
> applications are on the 2. CD? Until 7.0 we had only one GPL CD,
> now the downloadable Software is on 2 CDs. Maybe some of the
> apps being on the single CD before now are on the second CD
> which is not on the MaximumLinux edition.
>

 No, it's a single CD

Hoyt.

Re: [expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Wolfgang Bornath]

On Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 09:54 -0400, Hoyt wrote:
> The magazine MaximumLinux (July/August) has a version of Mandrake 7.1
> included with it. It states that some of the applications are not included.
> They had great success with the  7.0 version that was inlcuded with their
> first issue, so what's the story behind this special version? Also, was this
> the reason that the launch of 7.1 seemed so abrupt? So they could get the CD
> pressed in time for distribution?

I'm not sure about it but could it be that the missing
applications are on the 2. CD? Until 7.0 we had only one GPL CD,
now the downloadable Software is on 2 CDs. Maybe some of the
apps being on the single CD before now are on the second CD
which is not on the MaximumLinux edition.

wobo
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[expert] MaximumLinux Magazine CD version of 7.1

[Hoyt]

The magazine MaximumLinux (July/August) has a version of Mandrake 7.1
included with it. It states that some of the applications are not included.
They had great success with the  7.0 version that was inlcuded with their
first issue, so what's the story behind this special version? Also, was this
the reason that the launch of 7.1 seemed so abrupt? So they could get the CD
pressed in time for distribution?

Hoyt