Re: [Factor-talk] Modules/packages for Factor
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 04:05:32PM -0400, Joe Groff wrote: > Doug and I were discussing an overhaul of Factor's vocabulary system > to make it easier to work with source code outside of the Factor > repository and to enable gem or npm-style package management down the > line. I've sketched out a proposed design and pasted it to a Gist: I'm no expert in these matters, but it worries me a little that you mention Ruby Gems as one potential inspiration: I know that (for example) Debian doesn't package many Ruby libraries because the Gem system interacts poorly with a system-wide package-manager. Other languages like Perl and Python seem to have tons of libraries packaged in Debian, so they might be better models. On the other hand, the Python packaging system has been redesigned for Python 3.3, and if I recall correctly one of the big features is "make it easier to build system packages (.deb, .rpm) from Python packages by putting all the metadata in a static file", and it seems your proposal's "package.factorpackage" is exactly that, so maybe that'd be fine. Having a "image.factorimage" file in a package might make life a bit complicated - aren't Factor images platform specific? What happens if somebody "launches the Factor VM from inside the package directory" but the image is for a different architecture? -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Factor-talk mailing list Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
Re: [Factor-talk] Modules/packages for Factor
That's awesome ! I wonder if such a system could be used with not only factor code, but by interfacing to other package management systems. For example requiring factor bindings to a C library would setup both the bindings and the library through the operating system's package management system. It sounds ambitious though (and tough luck for people using operating systems without a package management system). Jon On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 10:05 PM, Joe Groff wrote: > Doug and I were discussing an overhaul of Factor's vocabulary system > to make it easier to work with source code outside of the Factor > repository and to enable gem or npm-style package management down the > line. I've sketched out a proposed design and pasted it to a Gist: > > https://gist.github.com/3440892 > > I'd like to solicit some feedback. Feel free to fork the gist and > propose changes. This design is roughly based on the behavior of Node > and npm, and is intended to accommodate the same project-local module > installation and usage pattern enabled by npm. > > -Joe > > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Factor-talk mailing list > Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Factor-talk mailing list Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
[Factor-talk] Modules/packages for Factor
Doug and I were discussing an overhaul of Factor's vocabulary system to make it easier to work with source code outside of the Factor repository and to enable gem or npm-style package management down the line. I've sketched out a proposed design and pasted it to a Gist: https://gist.github.com/3440892 I'd like to solicit some feedback. Feel free to fork the gist and propose changes. This design is roughly based on the behavior of Node and npm, and is intended to accommodate the same project-local module installation and usage pattern enabled by npm. -Joe -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Factor-talk mailing list Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
Re: [Factor-talk] Is there a Factor.js ?
Hi Michael, I'm enjoying these conversations and your "investigations" :) Regarding Javascript, I can see the benefit of a Factor-like language. It might be that using Clojure and Clojurescript as an analogy would be a good one. Obviously some parts may be harder to get compatible when bootstrapping from various JS engines, similar to trying to bootstrap from JVM or CLR. Language interoperability is a nice concept when you can get it working well. Can't wait to here more about your ideas as they develop... Best, John. On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Michael Clagett wrote: > Yes. In fact that is how I'm intending to target the CLR and JVM in my > own environment -- whether I successfully implement the ability to use > Factor (the language) inside my platform or not. I was envisioning > something like a combination of direct byte code generation (either MSIL or > JVM byte code) together with whatever programmatic facilities are necessary > for fixing up metadata tokens, invoking the respective jit compilers and > the like. This could just as easily be done from the existing Factor > environment as any custom environment I manage to construct and in a > perfect world Factor code created in either environment would compile and > execute in the other just fine. > > You Factor guru types might be scratching your heads and wondering why on > earth I would want to reproduce the factor booting mechanism in my own > environment and build it on top of my own foundations instead of just using > what Slava has already put so much work into. The answer is that while I'm > not sure that this will be necessary (i might be able to get away with the > DLL-ized version of Factor itself; I'm in major research mode about it as > we speak), I suspect I may need to roll my own in order to integrate at as > deep a level as I need with other language facilities I already have in > place. > > That's as much as I'm going to say about it, because I don't want to > commandeer the FactorCode.org airwaves to talk about my stuff. But > whatever I end up doing, I do expect to give back to the community in the > way of documentation of what I learn along the way. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 23, 2012, at 1:42 PM, "Joe Groff" wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Michael Clagett > wrote: > >> That, I would guess, is a result of its being implemented in C#. But > what > >> you lose at that point is the ability for the language to be used > outside of > >> the CLR and the extreme portability of something like Factor. What I'm > >> envisioning is something closer to Microsoft's C++, which now has > built-in > >> support for generating MSIL, while still remaining completely viable on > a > >> native code platform. Such a capability for Factor (with the ability to > >> generate JVM byte code as well) would allow Factor to act as a DSL layer > >> above real-world code bases that organizations are always going to be > using > >> for a significant portion of their development. > > > > The JVM and CLR both have native code interfaces a Factor bridge could > > take advantage of. I think that would be a more realistic avenue > > toward interfacing with those platforms than rearchitecting Factor to > > target the JVM or CLR directly. > > > > -Joe > > > > > -- > > Live Security Virtual Conference > > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > > ___ > > Factor-talk mailing list > > Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk > > > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Factor-talk mailing list > Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk > -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/___ Factor-talk mailing list Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.
Re: [Factor-talk] Is there a Factor.js ?
Yes. In fact that is how I'm intending to target the CLR and JVM in my own environment -- whether I successfully implement the ability to use Factor (the language) inside my platform or not. I was envisioning something like a combination of direct byte code generation (either MSIL or JVM byte code) together with whatever programmatic facilities are necessary for fixing up metadata tokens, invoking the respective jit compilers and the like. This could just as easily be done from the existing Factor environment as any custom environment I manage to construct and in a perfect world Factor code created in either environment would compile and execute in the other just fine. You Factor guru types might be scratching your heads and wondering why on earth I would want to reproduce the factor booting mechanism in my own environment and build it on top of my own foundations instead of just using what Slava has already put so much work into. The answer is that while I'm not sure that this will be necessary (i might be able to get away with the DLL-ized version of Factor itself; I'm in major research mode about it as we speak), I suspect I may need to roll my own in order to integrate at as deep a level as I need with other language facilities I already have in place. That's as much as I'm going to say about it, because I don't want to commandeer the FactorCode.org airwaves to talk about my stuff. But whatever I end up doing, I do expect to give back to the community in the way of documentation of what I learn along the way. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2012, at 1:42 PM, "Joe Groff" wrote: > On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Michael Clagett > wrote: >> That, I would guess, is a result of its being implemented in C#. But what >> you lose at that point is the ability for the language to be used outside of >> the CLR and the extreme portability of something like Factor. What I'm >> envisioning is something closer to Microsoft's C++, which now has built-in >> support for generating MSIL, while still remaining completely viable on a >> native code platform. Such a capability for Factor (with the ability to >> generate JVM byte code as well) would allow Factor to act as a DSL layer >> above real-world code bases that organizations are always going to be using >> for a significant portion of their development. > > The JVM and CLR both have native code interfaces a Factor bridge could > take advantage of. I think that would be a more realistic avenue > toward interfacing with those platforms than rearchitecting Factor to > target the JVM or CLR directly. > > -Joe > > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Factor-talk mailing list > Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Factor-talk mailing list Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
Re: [Factor-talk] Is there a Factor.js ?
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Michael Clagett wrote: > That, I would guess, is a result of its being implemented in C#. But what > you lose at that point is the ability for the language to be used outside of > the CLR and the extreme portability of something like Factor. What I'm > envisioning is something closer to Microsoft's C++, which now has built-in > support for generating MSIL, while still remaining completely viable on a > native code platform. Such a capability for Factor (with the ability to > generate JVM byte code as well) would allow Factor to act as a DSL layer > above real-world code bases that organizations are always going to be using > for a significant portion of their development. The JVM and CLR both have native code interfaces a Factor bridge could take advantage of. I think that would be a more realistic avenue toward interfacing with those platforms than rearchitecting Factor to target the JVM or CLR directly. -Joe -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Factor-talk mailing list Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
Re: [Factor-talk] Is there a Factor.js ?
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:27 PM, John Porubek wrote: > trying to google "Factor" I have found it effective to use "factor stack" or "factor language" to avoid the typical incorrect results. "factor word" always seemed to bring up Bill O'Reilly's news show fwiw. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Factor-talk mailing list Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
Re: [Factor-talk] Is there a Factor.js ?
Very well put, Mike. That's kind of why I've recently been attracted to Clojure. I don't have a very large investment of mental capital in Java or .NET, but those underpinnings certainly help build and expand the Clojure universe. After many years of having my brain warped by Forth (in a good way, I think), Factor just feels more "right" to me. But I admit I'm envious of Clojure's greater buzz and mind share. There are several excellent Clojure books - I wish Factor had at least one. Also, and this may sound really petty, but I wish Factor had been named differently - perhaps Faktor. I'm sure everyone here has experienced the frustration of trying to google "Factor" to find more information! Forth has the same problem. By naming it "Clojure" instead of "Closure", Rich Hickey saved everyone a lot of aggravation. BTW, I've enjoyed following your efforts to understand the deep internals of Factor. Most of it is way over my head, but your questions and the thoughtful responses by Joe, John, Doug and Alex (hopefully I didn't leave anyone out) are helping to reinforce the mental scaffolding I'm building in my attempts to fully grok Factor. --John On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Michael Clagett wrote: > John -- > > Couldn't resist chiming in here. Of course Factor is portable, open > source, and reliable. These are three of its strongest attributes. But > the DLL version of it nothwithstanding, it is such an attractive language > from a language standpoint that it leads one to want to have it where one > is already working -- not just as an alternative. Thus the genesis of my > (admittedly expansive) vision of integrating it into the environment I am > building. Chances are I'll die before that ever comes to anything. But a > more general benefit to the wider community would be eventually to have > Factor integrated into some of the development environments that folks are > already using on a day-in, day-out. That probably means a reasonably > smooth integration with non-Factor runtimes like the JVM or the CLR and the > code and libraries that sit on top of them, as well as programming > environments like Eclipse and VisualStudio. > > Now I understand how wild-eyed and "future" this is. The language after > all is a labor of love from a dedicated community that just happens to > have a lot of good taste, but finite resources. And it hasn't even reached > 1.0 maturity yet, so there's much to be done before such a wider vision > materializes. So please do not misunderstand; this is not in any way a > complaint or criticism -- nor even a request, because, you know, that's > just not realistic. It is, however, a hope. That some day this fabulous > language can be brought into mainstream environments where it's power can > be put to really widespread use. Granted, I'm an enterprise development > manager by trade during the day, so maybe this is just my bias. But > wishing and hoping costs nothing. > > Best, > > Mike > -- > From: mrj...@gmail.com > Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 21:04:00 -0700 > To: factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Factor-talk] Is there a Factor.js ? > > > There is a "Factor Playground" implemented in Javascript: > > http://personal.inet.fi/koti/egaga/jsfactor/playground.html > > It does not work with Factor's extensive library, however. > > Its not worth getting into a philosophical discussion about Javascript, > but I would note that Factor is portable (linux, mac, windows), open source > (bsd license), and reliable (extensive library and test suites). > > Best, > John. > > On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 7:44 PM, H.C. Chen wrote: > > I tried to find "factor.js" for a while, nothing found so far. > > What in my mind is the Processing programming language established on > JavaScript. > Include "Processing.js" into your .html turns it into processing aware. > > < script src="processing-1.3.6.js" >< /script > > > Refer to http://processingjs.org/ > > We have Forth.js too. It run under Windows DOS box JScript interpreter. > Like this: > > cscript.exe jeforth.js > > OK > > To work in a shell is very useful. > > The reason I like anything.JS is the portability, open source, and > reliable. > > > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Factor-talk mailing list > Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk > > > > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the > ways today's security
Re: [Factor-talk] Is there a Factor.js ?
That, I would guess, is a result of its being implemented in C#. But what you lose at that point is the ability for the language to be used outside of the CLR and the extreme portability of something like Factor. What I'm envisioning is something closer to Microsoft's C++, which now has built-in support for generating MSIL, while still remaining completely viable on a native code platform. Such a capability for Factor (with the ability to generate JVM byte code as well) would allow Factor to act as a DSL layer above real-world code bases that organizations are always going to be using for a significant portion of their development. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2012, at 10:51 AM, "Naveen Garg" wrote: > > smooth integration with non-Factor runtimes like the JVM or the CLR > Have a look at cat which runs on the CLR: > http://www.cat-language.com/intro.html . > > > > -- > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > ___ > Factor-talk mailing list > Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/___ Factor-talk mailing list Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/___ Factor-talk mailing list Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
Re: [Factor-talk] Is there a Factor.js ?
> > > smooth integration with non-Factor runtimes like the JVM or the CLR > Have a look at cat which runs on the CLR: http://www.cat-language.com/intro.html . -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/___ Factor-talk mailing list Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
Re: [Factor-talk] Is there a Factor.js ?
John -- Couldn't resist chiming in here. Of course Factor is portable, open source, and reliable. These are three of its strongest attributes. But the DLL version of it nothwithstanding, it is such an attractive language from a language standpoint that it leads one to want to have it where one is already working -- not just as an alternative. Thus the genesis of my (admittedly expansive) vision of integrating it into the environment I am building. Chances are I'll die before that ever comes to anything. But a more general benefit to the wider community would be eventually to have Factor integrated into some of the development environments that folks are already using on a day-in, day-out. That probably means a reasonably smooth integration with non-Factor runtimes like the JVM or the CLR and the code and libraries that sit on top of them, as well as programming environments like Eclipse and VisualStudio. Now I understand how wild-eyed and "future" this is. The language after all is a labor of love from a dedicated community that just happens to have a lot of good taste, but finite resources. And it hasn't even reached 1.0 maturity yet, so there's much to be done before such a wider vision materializes. So please do not misunderstand; this is not in any way a complaint or criticism -- nor even a request, because, you know, that's just not realistic. It is, however, a hope. That some day this fabulous language can be brought into mainstream environments where it's power can be put to really widespread use. Granted, I'm an enterprise development manager by trade during the day, so maybe this is just my bias. But wishing and hoping costs nothing. Best, MikeFrom: mrj...@gmail.com Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 21:04:00 -0700 To: factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Factor-talk] Is there a Factor.js ? There is a "Factor Playground" implemented in Javascript: http://personal.inet.fi/koti/egaga/jsfactor/playground.html It does not work with Factor's extensive library, however. Its not worth getting into a philosophical discussion about Javascript, but I would note that Factor is portable (linux, mac, windows), open source (bsd license), and reliable (extensive library and test suites). Best,John. On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 7:44 PM, H.C. Chen wrote: I tried to find "factor.js" for a while, nothing found so far. What in my mind is the Processing programming language established on JavaScript. Include "Processing.js" into your .html turns it into processing aware. < script src="processing-1.3.6.js" >< /script > Refer to http://processingjs.org/ We have Forth.js too. It run under Windows DOS box JScript interpreter. Like this: cscript.exe jeforth.js OKTo work in a shell is very useful. The reason I like anything.JS is the portability, open source, and reliable. -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Factor-talk mailing list Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Factor-talk mailing list Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/___ Factor-talk mailing list Factor-talk@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/factor-talk
