[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
> Re your writing above, how could 'loyal followers imply [the fort] > has been captured'? If they have really captured the fort, in that > context, they may be loyal but they could no longer, by definition, > be followers. very good! but those Lions even after looking into the calm clear pool, still bray like the jackasses they associate with. their identity is still unclear. a profilic western interpreter of Zen once commented that Bankei Zenji, an eccentric and insightfull meditator was considered a successfull teacher precisely because he left no successors or followers. people DO get addicted to the medicine prescribed to cure their dis-ease. people DO fall in love with the doctor that intended only to cure their dis-ease. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "eptfnj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > That was Zen; this is Tao. The movement decided > > that it was more in tune with Natural Law to buy > > the fort than to capture it. > > now, the Fort is only spoken about, > loyal followers imply it has been captured, > detractors say it will only be purchased, > a few people see only an empty useless lot > with real estate people from Florida selling it as > "The Ideal Community to Live in" at prices no-one > can afford. A favorite expression of mine by 'The Man' is: "The world is as you are; live unbounded awareness." Can't ever quite get past that one... Re your writing above, how could 'loyal followers imply [the fort] has been captured'? If they have really captured the fort, in that context, they may be loyal but they could no longer, by definition, be followers. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
> That was Zen; this is Tao. The movement decided > that it was more in tune with Natural Law to buy > the fort than to capture it. now, the Fort is only spoken about, loyal followers imply it has been captured, detractors say it will only be purchased, a few people see only an empty useless lot with real estate people from Florida selling it as "The Ideal Community to Live in" at prices no-one can afford. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "eptfnj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I was referring to his comments about being enlightened as to the > > goal of enlightenment, the first time we transcend during TM and > > contact the Absolute. > > > > So it is a statement of relative enlightenment he was making. > > The point I was making was that this statement of his led some of > > us > > to think that we were in fact enlightened; end of pathless path. > > This was in the context of a discussion about knowledge being > > structured in consciousness. > > The 'gradual school' perspective was always there as well, > > proving I guess that the ego hears what it wants to. > > if a person cannot tell when they have ceased being totally at the > mercy of their past actions, memories, tendencies or whatever then > screw them. > > there are a good number of people that experience lights, sounds > and all other Yogic stuff and are basically quite fu*ked up. > > the term "liberation' might be better a description > of the outcome of completely letting go rather than enlightenment. > > i thought the object is to become free and not get caught up in > endless courses, programs, techniques and other nonsence. > > Someone mentioned Taoist texts awhile ago. > Wasn't it Chuang Tzu that pointed out the absurdity > of the various later developments in Taoist breathing, > meditational and alchemy pursuits? > > This is what TM has become. A lot of horsecrap. > What happened to capture the fort? That was Zen; this is Tao. The movement decided that it was more in tune with Natural Law to buy the fort than to capture it. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
> I was referring to his comments about being enlightened as to the > goal of enlightenment, the first time we transcend during TM and > contact the Absolute. > > So it is a statement of relative enlightenment he was making. > The point I was making was that this statement of his led some of > us > to think that we were in fact enlightened; end of pathless path. > This was in the context of a discussion about knowledge being > structured in consciousness. > The 'gradual school' perspective was always there as well, proving > I guess that the ego hears what it wants to. if a person cannot tell when they have ceased being totally at the mercy of their past actions, memories, tendencies or whatever then screw them. there are a good number of people that experience lights, sounds and all other Yogic stuff and are basically quite fu*ked up. the term "liberation' might be better a description of the outcome of completely letting go rather than enlightenment. i thought the object is to become free and not get caught up in endless courses, programs, techniques and other nonsence. Someone mentioned Taoist texts awhile ago. Wasn't it Chuang Tzu that pointed out the absurdity of the various later developments in Taoist breathing, meditational and alchemy pursuits? This is what TM has become. A lot of horsecrap. What happened to capture the fort? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > --- jim_flanegin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- jim_flanegin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > snip > > > > > > > > And also when Maharishi speaks about being > > instantly > > > > enlightened > > > > once we transcend for the first time. ... > > > > > > I've never heard MMY say anything remotely close > > to > > > this. MMY always presented enlightenment from the > > > "gradual school" perspective: dying the cloth, > > etc. > > > > > I was referring to his comments about being > > enlightened as to the > > goal of enlightenment, the first time we transcend > > during TM and > > contact the Absolute. > > > > So it is a statement of relative enlightenment he > > was making. > > > > The point I was making was that this statement of > > his led some of us > > to think that we were in fact enlightened; end of > > pathless path. > > This was in the context of a discussion about > > knowledge being > > structured in consciousness. > > > > The 'gradual school' perspective was always there as > > well, proving I > > guess that the ego hears what it wants to. > > You don't have to respond, but I still don't get your > point! > Thanks- I don't think it is worth pursuing. I am probably trying to clean glass with a dirty rag as it were. I *do* get your point, and agree... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- jim_flanegin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- jim_flanegin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > snip > > > > > > And also when Maharishi speaks about being > instantly > > > enlightened > > > once we transcend for the first time. ... > > > > I've never heard MMY say anything remotely close > to > > this. MMY always presented enlightenment from the > > "gradual school" perspective: dying the cloth, > etc. > > > I was referring to his comments about being > enlightened as to the > goal of enlightenment, the first time we transcend > during TM and > contact the Absolute. > > So it is a statement of relative enlightenment he > was making. > > The point I was making was that this statement of > his led some of us > to think that we were in fact enlightened; end of > pathless path. > This was in the context of a discussion about > knowledge being > structured in consciousness. > > The 'gradual school' perspective was always there as > well, proving I > guess that the ego hears what it wants to. You don't have to respond, but I still don't get your point! > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ~--> > Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make > Yahoo! your home page > http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM > ~-> > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > --- jim_flanegin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > snip > > > > And also when Maharishi speaks about being instantly > > enlightened > > once we transcend for the first time. ... > > I've never heard MMY say anything remotely close to > this. MMY always presented enlightenment from the > "gradual school" perspective: dying the cloth, etc. > I was referring to his comments about being enlightened as to the goal of enlightenment, the first time we transcend during TM and contact the Absolute. So it is a statement of relative enlightenment he was making. The point I was making was that this statement of his led some of us to think that we were in fact enlightened; end of pathless path. This was in the context of a discussion about knowledge being structured in consciousness. The 'gradual school' perspective was always there as well, proving I guess that the ego hears what it wants to. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 10/5/05 12:38 PM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Could you provide some of the links to get-rich-quick > > > schemes that you found? > > > > No because you just want to start an argument. > > And life's too short for that. Is not. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 10/5/05 12:38 PM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Could you provide some of the links to get-rich-quick > > > schemes that you found? > > > > No because you just want to start an argument. > > And life's too short for that. And besides, there aren't any such links. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/5/05 12:38 PM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Could you provide some of the links to get-rich-quick > > schemes that you found? > > No because you just want to start an argument. Want to buy a bridge? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing > > > > > jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish > > > > > everything without doing a damned thing themselves. > > > > > Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that > > > > > sorta thing. > > > > > > > > Yet another panderer to lazy Western idiots: > > > > > > > > You need not leave your room. Remain sitting at your table > > > > and listen. You need not even listen, simply wait. You need > > > > not even wait, just learn to become quiet, and still, and > > > > solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be > > > > unmasked. It has no choice; it will roll in ecstasy at your > > > > feet. > > > > > > > > --Franz Kafka > > > > > > Great advice if what you want to do is > > > turn into a cockroach. > > > > Cute, but no cigar. > > > > The amusing thing is that on the one hand, you > > advocate "appreciating the Now" instead of making > > an effort to improve onself; and on the other, > > when MMY advocates "appreciating the Now," all > > of a sudden exerting effort to improve oneself > > is the sine qua non. > > Do you NEVER get tired of trying to turn > everything into an argument? You're not > going to get one. Just an observation, Barry. Relax. Appreciate the Now. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing > > > jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish > > > everything without doing a damned thing themselves. > > > Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that > > > sorta thing. > > > > Yet another panderer to lazy Western idiots: > > > > You need not leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and > > listen. You need not even listen, simply wait. You need not even > > wait, just learn to become quiet, and still, and solitary. The > > world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked. It has no > > choice; it will roll in ecstasy at your feet. > > > > --Franz Kafka > > Great advice if what you want to do is > turn into a cockroach. Cute, but no cigar. The amusing thing is that on the one hand, you advocate "appreciating the Now" instead of making an effort to improve onself; and on the other, when MMY advocates "appreciating the Now," all of a sudden exerting effort to improve oneself is the sine qua non. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
> > No because you just want to start an argument. > > And life's too short for that. Tweedledee and Tweedledum agreed to have a fight. Touch football. Roughhousing. Nurf-stick battles. Come on, didn't you see Rama and Ravana wink at each other? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/5/05 12:38 PM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Could you provide some of the links to get-rich-quick > > schemes that you found? > > No because you just want to start an argument. And life's too short for that. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/5/05 12:38 PM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Could you provide some of the links to get-rich-quick > schemes that you found? No because you just want to start an argument. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing > > > > jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish > > > > everything without doing a damned thing themselves. > > > > Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that > > > > sorta thing. > > > > > > Yet another panderer to lazy Western idiots: > > > > > > You need not leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and > > > listen. You need not even listen, simply wait. You need not even > > > wait, just learn to become quiet, and still, and solitary. The > > > world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked. It has no > > > choice; it will roll in ecstasy at your feet. > > > > > > --Franz Kafka > > > > Great advice if what you want to do is > > turn into a cockroach. > > Cute, but no cigar. > > The amusing thing is that on the one hand, you > advocate "appreciating the Now" instead of making > an effort to improve onself; and on the other, > when MMY advocates "appreciating the Now," all > of a sudden exerting effort to improve oneself > is the sine qua non. Do you NEVER get tired of trying to turn everything into an argument? You're not going to get one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing > > jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish > > everything without doing a damned thing themselves. > > Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that > > sorta thing. > > Yet another panderer to lazy Western idiots: > > You need not leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and > listen. You need not even listen, simply wait. You need not even > wait, just learn to become quiet, and still, and solitary. The > world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked. It has no > choice; it will roll in ecstasy at your feet. > > --Franz Kafka Great advice if what you want to do is turn into a cockroach. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing > jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish > everything without doing a damned thing themselves. > Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that > sorta thing. Yet another panderer to lazy Western idiots: You need not leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. You need not even listen, simply wait. You need not even wait, just learn to become quiet, and still, and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked. It has no choice; it will roll in ecstasy at your feet. --Franz Kafka Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 10/5/05 11:52 AM, "TurquoiseB" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing > > jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish > > everything without doing a damned thing themselves. > > Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that > > sorta thing. > > Actually very close to what has happened: if you do a web search > for "Do nothing and accomplish everything" the phrase is usually > tied to get rich quick schemes. Interesting how greed begets greed. Interesting indeed. I did such a search, and the only thing I could find that even came close to a "get-rich- quick" scheme was a book by Fred Gratzon called "The Lazy Way to Success." But if you investigate the book, you find that it's Gratzon's take on MMY's phrase (he's a TM teacher) and not a get-rich-quick scheme at all. Could you provide some of the links to get-rich-quick schemes that you found? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > I always remember the two terms being used together -- back to 1967, > > like Unc. I remember the latter phrase being a sort of punch line to > > the former. M. would say "Do less accomplish more." then pause, and > > then say, drawing it out a bit "Do () nothing ... and accomplish > > ... Every . Thing!" It always got a big laugh. > > Exactly. > > > > But "Do nothing and accomplish everything" is obviously > > > *not* meant in a relative sense, so when MMY offers it > > > as a corollary to "Do less and accomplish more," the > > > latter acquires a new, non-relative spin. > Now it refers > > > to the experience of increasing identification with the > > > Self: the greater the identification with the Self, the > > > Non-Doer, the greater the sense that "I [the Self] do > > > not act at all." > > > > To you I am sure that's the case. That does not necessarily make > > that a universal connotation, or even M's intended meaning. > > Exactly again. Just a reminder: the point is that it does NOT mean that one should refrain from action, or even that one should refrain from certain kinds of action. > > My take on the phrase was always, as I said, a punchline, a laugh > > getter, for "Do less and accomplish more." In that vein, it was > > not meant to be a practical guidance, but a sort of funny word > > play. > > I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing > jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish > everything without doing a damned thing themselves. > Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that > sorta thing. Funny how MMY sabotaged all that marketing jive with the constant repetition of "Meditate and act," eh? Also funny how Krishna anticipated the need to market to all those lazy Westerners with "One who is in Union with the Divine and who knows the Truth will maintain, 'I do not act at all,'" huh? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/5/05 11:52 AM, "TurquoiseB" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing > jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish > everything without doing a damned thing themselves. > Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that > sorta thing. Actually very close to what has happened: if you do a web search for "Do nothing and accomplish everything" the phrase is usually tied to get rich quick schemes. Interesting how greed begets greed. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > But not even that has anything to do with what > > MMY means by "Do nothing and accomplish > > everything." It isn't any kind of injunction; > > it isn't (as you had claimed) a "philosophy." > > That is true. > > > It's a simply a description (as I said) of what > > one is said to experience in enlightenment, i.e., > > the constant experience of and identification with > > the Self as the Non-Doer, while all the > > "accomplishing" is done by the gunas. > > > > I've never encountered any TMer who has > > understood it any other way, except you. > > Well, include me in the list who did not have your take (Judy's) as > the primary meaning of the phrase (see adjacent post). OK. You do see that this is its *ultimate* meaning, though, right? (Or at least of the meanings that we've been discussing--maybe there are yet more levels!). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I always remember the two terms being used together -- back to 1967, > like Unc. I remember the latter phrase being a sort of punch line to > the former. M. would say "Do less accomplish more." then pause, and > then say, drawing it out a bit "Do () nothing ... and accomplish > ... Every . Thing!" It always got a big laugh. Exactly. > > But "Do nothing and accomplish everything" is obviously > > *not* meant in a relative sense, so when MMY offers it > > as a corollary to "Do less and accomplish more," the > > latter acquires a new, non-relative spin. > Now it refers > > to the experience of increasing identification with the > > Self: the greater the identification with the Self, the > > Non-Doer, the greater the sense that "I [the Self] do > > not act at all." > > To you I am sure that's the case. That does not necessarily make > that a universal connotation, or even M's intended meaning. Exactly again. > My take on the phrase was always, as I said, a punchline, a laugh > getter, for "Do less and accomplish more." In that vein, it was not > meant to be a practical guidance, but a sort of funny word play. I always assumed that both phrases were just marketing jive aimed at Westerners who *wanted* to accomplish everything without doing a damned thing themselves. Pander to the idiots by selling them idiocy, that sorta thing. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I've never encountered any TMer who has > understood it any other way, except you. As we have established in the past, your experience in the TMO is fairly limited. :-) If you're hoping for an argument, you're not going to get one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On 10/5/05 8:57 AM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Both were current when I started TM in 1975, so I
> > > > couldn't say. But I've heard TM teachers say that
> > > > at first it was just "Do less and accomplish more."
> > > >
> > > > Back in 1967, did you understand "Do nothing and
> > > > accomplish everything" to be a prescription to
> > > > refrain from acting?
> > > >
> > > > That would have been when you were a TM teacher, no?
> > >
> > > "Do less and accomplish more" would seem to be the standard
> > > injunction for people in the householder ashrama who receive a
> > > householder ishta-devata mantra. I mean, that's the idea of
> > > giving householders such mantras, they get worldly boons from
> > > invoking their ishta. Thus it supports their role and stage in
> > > life. That's all this is about, no? I think people read way too
> > > much into these things.
>
> I always remember the two terms being used together -- back to 1967,
> like Unc. I remember the latter phrase being a sort of punch line to
> the former. M. would say "Do less accomplish more." then pause, and
> then say, drawing it out a bit "Do () nothing ... and accomplish
> ... Every . Thing!" It always got a big laugh.
>
> Many catch phrases that M. used had 2-3 levels of meaning. For
> example, "Knowledge is Structured in Consciousness".
Or "Reincarnation is for the ignorant."
> The liviness of
> meaning on multiple levels is what made these phrases good one
> liners, funny, insightful. But not all levels of meaning were
> literal.
>
> > I'd say you're correct about "Do less and accomplish
> > more." On its own terms, it has a clear, uncomplicated
> > relative meaning.
>
> The primary meaning of "Do less and accomplish more" per my take,
> historically in hearing it live many times, was in relationship to
> the bow and arrow analogy. A la .. 'We do a bit less, we take 20
> min 2x, to refresh the mind, etc. Though counter-intuitive, and
> sounding paradoxical to stop action in order to achieve more, in
> practice it actually works, we draw the arrow back, in the opposite
> direction of achievement, and then let it go. We actually acheive
> more. Thus, we "do less (take a break from activity and yet
> accomplish more (due to the deep rest, clarity or mind, etc.)'
Sure. I don't think that's incompatible with Vaj's take,
though, just more subtle, more abstractly expressed.
> Subtler, seconday meanings, relate to the mind settling down ('doing
> less', not in the sense that TM is "doing", but in the sense of the
> mind's activity becoming less. In that more subtle state of mind
> funcioning, we gain more -- more happiness, clarity, etc.
>
> > But "Do nothing and accomplish everything" is obviously
> > *not* meant in a relative sense, so when MMY offers it
> > as a corollary to "Do less and accomplish more," the
> > latter acquires a new, non-relative spin. > Now it refers
> > to the experience of increasing identification with the
> > Self: the greater the identification with the Self, the
> > Non-Doer, the greater the sense that "I [the Self] do
> > not act at all."
>
> To you I am sure that's the case. That does not necessarily make
> that a universal connotation, or even M's intended meaning.
>
> My take on the phrase was always, as I said, a punchline, a laugh
> getter, for "Do less and accomplish more."
Yup. But I'd say it was so funny because it instantly
changed the meaning of "Do less and accomplish more,"
or instantly added a whole new level of meaning to it.
> In that vein, it was not
> meant to be a practical guidance, but a sort of funny word play. It
> was funny because one knew M was NOT advocating "meditate and then
> do nothing". Its power was tied to the scondary meaning below.
Right.
> Secondary meanings, which make it a "rich" and witty phrase, include
> the capture the fort idea: do nothing, that is "transcend the field
> of activity" and accomplish everything by "capturing the fort", or
> "highest first".
Yup.
> A third level of meaning is what Judy suggests, and adds to the
> multi-dimensional sparkle of the phrase. But to be honest, in
> hearing M say it live many times, I did not, and most others it
> appeared to me -- from the group vibe and laugh -- seem much
> focussed on this third level of meaning.
Well, it's been the understanding of most TMers
in *my* experience, although they also appreciated
the other levels. Maybe it depends on the degree of
one's familiarity with "I do not act at all" from the
Gita and MMY's analysis thereof.
In any case, you confirm my main point, which is
that neither phrase means "Do not engage in action,"
on *any* level (including "Do not engage in A, B,
and C"). T
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > But not even that has anything to do with what > MMY means by "Do nothing and accomplish > everything." It isn't any kind of injunction; > it isn't (as you had claimed) a "philosophy." That is true. > It's a simply a description (as I said) of what > one is said to experience in enlightenment, i.e., > the constant experience of and identification with > the Self as the Non-Doer, while all the > "accomplishing" is done by the gunas. > > I've never encountered any TMer who has > understood it any other way, except you. Well, include me in the list who did not have your take (Judy's) as the primary meaning of the phrase (see adjacent post). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 10/5/05 8:57 AM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Both were current when I started TM in 1975, so I
> > > couldn't say. But I've heard TM teachers say that
> > > at first it was just "Do less and accomplish more."
> > >
> > > Back in 1967, did you understand "Do nothing and
> > > accomplish everything" to be a prescription to
> > > refrain from acting?
> > >
> > > That would have been when you were a TM teacher, no?
> >
> > "Do less and accomplish more" would seem to be the standard
> > injunction for people in the householder ashrama who receive a
> > householder ishta-devata mantra. I mean, that's the idea of giving
> > householders such mantras, they get worldly boons from invoking
> > their ishta. Thus it supports their role and stage in life. That's
> > all this is about, no? I think people read way too much into these
> > things.
I always remember the two terms being used together -- back to 1967,
like Unc. I remember the latter phrase being a sort of punch line to
the former. M. would say "Do less accomplish more." then pause, and
then say, drawing it out a bit "Do () nothing ... and accomplish
... Every . Thing!" It always got a big laugh.
Many catch phrases that M. used had 2-3 levels of meaning. For
example, "Knowledge is Structured in Consciousness". The liviness of
meaning on multiple levels is what made these phrases good one liners,
funny, insightful. But not all levels of meaning were literal.
> I'd say you're correct about "Do less and accomplish
> more." On its own terms, it has a clear, uncomplicated
> relative meaning.
The primary meaning of "Do less and accomplish more" per my take,
historically in hearing it live many times, was in relationship to the
bow and arrow analogy. A la .. 'We do a bit less, we take 20 min 2x,
to refresh the mind, etc. Though counter-intuitive, and sounding
paradoxical to stop action in order to achieve more, in practice it
actually works, we draw the arrow back, in the opposite direction of
achievement, and then let it go. We actually acheive more. Thus, we
"do less (take a break from activity and yet accomplish more (due to
the deep rest, clarity or mind, etc.)'
Subtler, seconday meanings, relate to the mind settling down ('doing
less', not in the sense that TM is "doing", but in the sense of the
mind's activity becoming less. In that more subtle state of mind
funcioning, we gain more -- more happiness, clarity, etc.
> But "Do nothing and accomplish everything" is obviously
> *not* meant in a relative sense, so when MMY offers it
> as a corollary to "Do less and accomplish more," the
> latter acquires a new, non-relative spin. > Now it refers
> to the experience of increasing identification with the
> Self: the greater the identification with the Self, the
> Non-Doer, the greater the sense that "I [the Self] do
> not act at all."
To you I am sure that's the case. That does not necessarily make that
a universal connotation, or even M's intended meaning.
My take on the phrase was always, as I said, a punchline, a laugh
getter, for "Do less and accomplish more." In that vein, it was not
meant to be a practical guidance, but a sort of funny word play. It
was funny because one knew M was NOT advocating "meditate and then do
nothing". Its power was tied to the scondary meaning below.
Secondary meanings, which make it a "rich" and witty phrase, include
the capture the fort idea: do nothing, that is "transcend the field of
activity" and accomplish everything by "capturing the fort", or
"highest first".
A third level of meaning is what Judy suggests, and adds to the
multi-dimensional sparkle of the phrase. But to be honest, in hearing
M say it live many times, I did not, and most others it appeared to me
-- from the group vibe and laugh -- seem much focussed on this third
level of meaning.
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > --- jim_flanegin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > snip > > > > And also when Maharishi speaks about being instantly > > enlightened > > once we transcend for the first time. ... > > I've never heard MMY say anything remotely close to > this. MMY always presented enlightenment from the > "gradual school" perspective: dying the cloth, etc.. I'll see if I can find the reference. > > > > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Or go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > > and click 'Join This Group!' > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
> I think "do nothing" merely refers to the fact that the enlightened > experience in a very real sense that they (the Self) are doing > nothing. The > body and all the other faculties may be working hard, as Maharishi > always did, but there is the constant sense that "I am not doing > anything, in fact, I am not even here." This is more "elightenment" gibberish. The experience of a still center within might be interesting and different compared to other experiences but so what? Unless such an experience makes a measurable positive difference then its just more stuff. "I am not here" is an equally absurd declaration. Calling all descriptions and fictions about oneself and/or ones life "not here" should be obvious even to the average Joe. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Back in 1967, did you understand "Do nothing and > > accomplish everything" to be a prescription to > > refrain from acting? > > Never. > > HOWEVER, there was a STRONG injunction from > the TM movement that certain TYPES of action > would not be condoned, if you were to continue > to be a TMer or TM teacher in "good standing." OK, so you understand "Do nothing and accomplish everything" to mean "Don't do A, B, or C if you want to continue to be a TMer or TM teacher in 'good standing.'" But not even that has anything to do with what MMY means by "Do nothing and accomplish everything." It isn't any kind of injunction; it isn't (as you had claimed) a "philosophy." It's a simply a description (as I said) of what one is said to experience in enlightenment, i.e., the constant experience of and identification with the Self as the Non-Doer, while all the "accomplishing" is done by the gunas. I've never encountered any TMer who has understood it any other way, except you. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/5/05 8:57 AM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Both were current when I started TM in 1975, so I > > couldn't say. But I've heard TM teachers say that > > at first it was just "Do less and accomplish more." > > > > Back in 1967, did you understand "Do nothing and > > accomplish everything" to be a prescription to > > refrain from acting? > > > > That would have been when you were a TM teacher, no? > > "Do less and accomplish more" would seem to be the standard > injunction for people in the householder ashrama who receive a > householder ishta-devata mantra. I mean, that's the idea of giving > householders such mantras, they get worldly boons from invoking > their ishta. Thus it supports their role and stage in life. That's > all this is about, no? I think people read way too much into these > things. I'd say you're correct about "Do less and accomplish more." On its own terms, it has a clear, uncomplicated relative meaning. But "Do nothing and accomplish everything" is obviously *not* meant in a relative sense, so when MMY offers it as a corollary to "Do less and accomplish more," the latter acquires a new, non-relative spin. Now it refers to the experience of increasing identification with the Self: the greater the identification with the Self, the Non-Doer, the greater the sense that "I [the Self] do not act at all." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- jim_flanegin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: snip > > And also when Maharishi speaks about being instantly > enlightened > once we transcend for the first time. ... I've never heard MMY say anything remotely close to this. MMY always presented enlightenment from the "gradual school" perspective: dying the cloth, etc.. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > In this case, MMY started out with "Do less and > > > accomplish more," which was understood to be simply a > > > claim of more efficient action as a result of TM > > > practice. Only later, apparently, did he add, "Do > > > nothing, accomplish everything"--I'd guess in the > > > context of the TM-Sidhis? > > > > You would guess wrong. The phrase was already > > in vogue in 1967. > > Both were current when I started TM in 1975, so I > couldn't say. But I've heard TM teachers say that > at first it was just "Do less and accomplish more." > > Back in 1967, did you understand "Do nothing and > accomplish everything" to be a prescription to > refrain from acting? Never. HOWEVER, there was a STRONG injunction from the TM movement that certain TYPES of action would not be condoned, if you were to continue to be a TMer or TM teacher in "good standing." That included pretty much all forms of psycho- therapy, any techniques taught by other traditions, and went as far as techniques learned from books, INCLUDING such things as self-analysis as has been discussed here. Practices such as monitoring one's thoughts or actions in the sense of mindful- ness practice were definitely considered "off the program." Since mindfulness IS the 'action' I now feel is necessary to fully realize enlightenment, I guess you'd have to say that Yes, I believe that there was a strong injunction to refrain from action. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/5/05 8:57 AM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Both were current when I started TM in 1975, so I > couldn't say. But I've heard TM teachers say that > at first it was just "Do less and accomplish more." > > Back in 1967, did you understand "Do nothing and > accomplish everything" to be a prescription to > refrain from acting? > > That would have been when you were a TM teacher, no? "Do less and accomplish more" would seem to be the standard injunction for people in the householder ashrama who receive a householder ishta-devata mantra. I mean, that's the idea of giving householders such mantras, they get worldly boons from invoking their ishta. Thus it supports their role and stage in life. That's all this is about, no? I think people read way too much into these things. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In this case, MMY started out with "Do less and > > accomplish more," which was understood to be simply a > > claim of more efficient action as a result of TM > > practice. Only later, apparently, did he add, "Do > > nothing, accomplish everything"--I'd guess in the > > context of the TM-Sidhis? > > You would guess wrong. The phrase was already > in vogue in 1967. Both were current when I started TM in 1975, so I couldn't say. But I've heard TM teachers say that at first it was just "Do less and accomplish more." Back in 1967, did you understand "Do nothing and accomplish everything" to be a prescription to refrain from acting? That would have been when you were a TM teacher, no? > > --and it took on an entirely > > different significance. It became clear that "Do less > > and accomplish more" had had a double meaning all along. > > As in doubletalk? :-) As in different meanings in different states of attention. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > Completely agree. The TM philosophy -- "Do nothing, > > > accomplish everything -- is horseshit and always has > > > been. > > > > Obviously "Do nothing, accomplish everything" is NOT > > a "philosophy" of refraining from action. I believe > > I may have pointed this out to you before. It isn't > > a PREscription for how to live; it's a DEscription of > > life in enlightenment. > > If that's how you interpret it, fine. Just for the record, that's how MMY teaches it, not just how I interpret it. But as > a DEscription of life in enlightenment it's > horseshit, too. IMO, of course. Well, if you ever get to the point of life in enlightenment, let us know what you find, 'K? > > > The prescription for how to live is: "Established > > in Yoga, perform action." > > Unless that action is Off The Program... :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In this case, MMY started out with "Do less and > accomplish more," which was understood to be simply a > claim of more efficient action as a result of TM > practice. Only later, apparently, did he add, "Do > nothing, accomplish everything"--I'd guess in the > context of the TM-Sidhis? You would guess wrong. The phrase was already in vogue in 1967. > --and it took on an entirely > different significance. It became clear that "Do less > and accomplish more" had had a double meaning all along. As in doubletalk? :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Completely agree. The TM philosophy -- "Do nothing, > > accomplish everything -- is horseshit and always has > > been. > > Obviously "Do nothing, accomplish everything" is NOT > a "philosophy" of refraining from action. I believe > I may have pointed this out to you before. It isn't > a PREscription for how to live; it's a DEscription of > life in enlightenment. If that's how you interpret it, fine. But as a DEscription of life in enlightenment it's horseshit, too. IMO, of course. > The prescription for how to live is: "Established > in Yoga, perform action." Unless that action is Off The Program... :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > Completely agree. The TM philosophy -- "Do nothing, > > > accomplish everything -- is horseshit and always has > > > been. > > > > Obviously "Do nothing, accomplish everything" is NOT > > a "philosophy" of refraining from action. I believe > > I may have pointed this out to you before. It isn't > > a PREscription for how to live; it's a DEscription of > > life in enlightenment. > > > > The prescription for how to live is: "Established > > in Yoga, perform action." > > Curious how Maharishi recognized the problem of the teacher's words > coming from his/her consciousness and being (mis)interpreted by > his/her adherents' consciousness, yet fell prey to it just the same. > I.e. "Do nothing, accomplish everything", which is the subjective > experience of the objective statement, "established in Yoga, perform > action". Of course, he also says over and over again, "there are two steps of progress: rest and activity." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > on 10/4/05 7:33 PM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > >> In this case, MMY started out with "Do less and > >> accomplish more," which was understood to be simply a > >> claim of more efficient action as a result of TM > >> practice. Only later, apparently, did he add, "Do > >> nothing, accomplish everything"--I'd guess in the > >> context of the TM-Sidhis?--and it took on an entirely > >> different significance. It became clear that "Do less > >> and accomplish more" had had a double meaning all along. > > I think "do nothing" merely refers to the fact that the enlightened > experience in a very real sense that they (the Self) are doing > nothing. The body and all the other faculties may be working hard, > as Maharishi always did, but there is the constant sense that "I am > not doing anything, in fact, I am not even here." Yup, that's what I was referring to. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > In this case, MMY started out with "Do less and > > accomplish more," which was understood to be simply a > > claim of more efficient action as a result of TM > > practice. Only later, apparently, did he add, "Do > > nothing, accomplish everything"--I'd guess in the > > context of the TM-Sidhis?--and it took on an entirely > > different significance. It became clear that "Do less > > and accomplish more" had had a double meaning all along. > > > > But I've never heard *anybody* suggest that either > > was a prescription for refraining from action, except > > in the present instance, so I doubt it's a common > > misunderstanding among TMers, even the rank and file. > > I dunno- the mood-making had to come from somewhere, and that seems > as good a misunderstood expression as any. Naah. There is just no basis whatsoever for the idea of *not acting*, and far too much to the contrary. Moodmaking is more likely to come from "Take it as it comes," or "Don't strain," or "Act from your present state of consciousness," or even just "Don't do what you think might be wrong." MMY does a very delicate balancing act between the idea of spontaneous right action as a result of transcending, on one hand, and prescriptions for behavior, on the other. But he pretty much leaves it up to the individual to reconcile the two, and different people do it different ways (perhaps even according to their current state of consciousness). > And also when Maharishi speaks about being instantly enlightened > once we transcend for the first time. ...(Like when the governators > at the TM commune/apple juice farm I worked on in 1981 knew very > very little about running a business, and didn't do a lot of work, > yet blamed every failure on "negativity in the atmosphere". Wow!) That sounds to me more like a misunderstanding of "Do less and accomplish more" in its objective, more superficial sense. One of the *real* misunderstandings is the idea of "support of nature," but that's a whole 'nother issue. > One of those "True, but..." phrases. Anyway, he also said its a > waste of time to look for the causes of ignorance, as I recall, so > I won't go any further... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
on 10/4/05 7:33 PM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >> In this case, MMY started out with "Do less and >> accomplish more," which was understood to be simply a >> claim of more efficient action as a result of TM >> practice. Only later, apparently, did he add, "Do >> nothing, accomplish everything"--I'd guess in the >> context of the TM-Sidhis?--and it took on an entirely >> different significance. It became clear that "Do less >> and accomplish more" had had a double meaning all along. I think "do nothing" merely refers to the fact that the enlightened experience in a very real sense that they (the Self) are doing nothing. The body and all the other faculties may be working hard, as Maharishi always did, but there is the constant sense that "I am not doing anything, in fact, I am not even here." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In this case, MMY started out with "Do less and > accomplish more," which was understood to be simply a > claim of more efficient action as a result of TM > practice. Only later, apparently, did he add, "Do > nothing, accomplish everything"--I'd guess in the > context of the TM-Sidhis?--and it took on an entirely > different significance. It became clear that "Do less > and accomplish more" had had a double meaning all along. > > But I've never heard *anybody* suggest that either > was a prescription for refraining from action, except > in the present instance, so I doubt it's a common > misunderstanding among TMers, even the rank and file. I dunno- the mood-making had to come from somewhere, and that seems as good a misunderstood expression as any. And also when Maharishi speaks about being instantly enlightened once we transcend for the first time. ...(Like when the governators at the TM commune/apple juice farm I worked on in 1981 knew very very little about running a business, and didn't do a lot of work, yet blamed every failure on "negativity in the atmosphere". Wow!) One of those "True, but..." phrases. Anyway, he also said its a waste of time to look for the causes of ignorance, as I recall, so I won't go any further... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > Completely agree. The TM philosophy -- "Do nothing, > > > accomplish everything -- is horseshit and always has > > > been. > > > > Obviously "Do nothing, accomplish everything" is NOT > > a "philosophy" of refraining from action. I believe > > I may have pointed this out to you before. It isn't > > a PREscription for how to live; it's a DEscription of > > life in enlightenment. > > > > The prescription for how to live is: "Established > > in Yoga, perform action." > > Curious how Maharishi recognized the problem of the teacher's words > coming from his/her consciousness and being (mis)interpreted by > his/her adherents' consciousness, yet fell prey to it just the > same. I wouldn't say it's curious, I'd say it's inevitable (in fact, I believe that's what *MMY* says). Even on the most basic level, there's no way you can eliminate *all* possibility of misunderstanding (or misrepresentation, for that matter), no matter how crystal- clear you are, any more than you can get around the "mistake of the intellect" at the level of the nitty- gritty. In this case, MMY started out with "Do less and accomplish more," which was understood to be simply a claim of more efficient action as a result of TM practice. Only later, apparently, did he add, "Do nothing, accomplish everything"--I'd guess in the context of the TM-Sidhis?--and it took on an entirely different significance. It became clear that "Do less and accomplish more" had had a double meaning all along. But I've never heard *anybody* suggest that either was a prescription for refraining from action, except in the present instance, so I doubt it's a common misunderstanding among TMers, even the rank and file. > I.e. "Do nothing, accomplish everything", which is the > subjective experience of the objective statement, "established in > Yoga, perform action". Yup yup yup, nicely put. Both aspects are pretty thoroughly explained in MMY's Gita commentary: on one hand, I (the self) am "helplessly driven to activity"; on the other, "I [the Self] do not act at all." That distinction and its ramifications are one of the main themes of the first six chapters of the Gita. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 10/4/05 4:37 PM, "Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > --- Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> On 10/3/05 11:47 PM, "matrixmonitor" > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >>> If novices are to accept anybody's Enlightenment, > >> then there is a > >>> general concensus even among other Sages such as > >> Adi Da, Swami > >>> Sivananda, Yogananda, and philsophers such as Ken > >> Wilber; that Ramana > >>> was not only Enlightened, but was the "greatest" > >> Sage of the 20th > >>> century. Some Buddhists may disagree with > >> Wilber's conclusion. I > >>> would rank Guru Dev on the same level, personally. > >> > >> Did he leave a body behind when he died? > > > > Yes, but within hours it turned into a pillar of > > sandlewood dust, floated into the air and took the > > shape of an "OM". Quite impressive. > > Come on Pete, everyone knows OM is bad for ya... "I see dead people..." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Completely agree. The TM philosophy -- "Do nothing, > > accomplish everything -- is horseshit and always has > > been. > > Obviously "Do nothing, accomplish everything" is NOT > a "philosophy" of refraining from action. I believe > I may have pointed this out to you before. It isn't > a PREscription for how to live; it's a DEscription of > life in enlightenment. > > The prescription for how to live is: "Established > in Yoga, perform action." Curious how Maharishi recognized the problem of the teacher's words coming from his/her consciousness and being (mis)interpreted by his/her adherents' consciousness, yet fell prey to it just the same. I.e. "Do nothing, accomplish everything", which is the subjective experience of the objective statement, "established in Yoga, perform action". Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/4/05 4:37 PM, "Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> On 10/3/05 11:47 PM, "matrixmonitor" >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> If novices are to accept anybody's Enlightenment, >> then there is a >>> general concensus even among other Sages such as >> Adi Da, Swami >>> Sivananda, Yogananda, and philsophers such as Ken >> Wilber; that Ramana >>> was not only Enlightened, but was the "greatest" >> Sage of the 20th >>> century. Some Buddhists may disagree with >> Wilber's conclusion. I >>> would rank Guru Dev on the same level, personally. >> >> Did he leave a body behind when he died? > > Yes, but within hours it turned into a pillar of > sandlewood dust, floated into the air and took the > shape of an "OM". Quite impressive. Come on Pete, everyone knows OM is bad for ya... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "matrixmonitor" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > WHO is doing this, WHO is doing > > > that...a question repeated asked by Ramana, Nisargadatta Maharaj, > > and > > > HWL Poonja. This is our interface with the previous post on "just > > > Bbbeellvvee...and Be the Self!). Not so > > easy, > > > and why? Because they - the Neo-Advaitins have totally left out > > the > > > physiological component!!!. That's why MMY's contribution will be > > > remembered throughout all history along with his grand invention : > > TM > > > as we practice it. HallaleulyaPraise God! I'd be a > > > gonner...don't know about you. I might add that it's not really an > > > ordinary belief (Self-Enquiry or Inquiry) - Ramana's main "method"; > > > which in my opinion is unduly circular since one must be ALREADY > > > Realized in order to "do it". Thus, it - Ramana's method - is > > rather > > > inferior when it comes to helping people on a lowly evolved gross > > > level like myself. I need something more substantial to get > > lifted up > > > by the bootstraps; thus TMit works. Never could get anything > > out > > > of Self-Enquiry, it seems so unnecessary in view of TM which is so > > > straightforward and readily bypasses all mental contrivances. > > > > > > I agree on the one hand that the physiological component, as > > expounded by Maharishi, and obviously central to the practice of TM, > > is vital to achieve Enlightenment (though not exclusively through > > TM). I also see, though, that TM, with its road markers identified > > for TC, CC, GC, and UC, eventually runs the practitioner into a > > wall. At least with regard to what is actually taught. And the last > > bit, Self-Inquiry is then necessary to eliminate the final apparent > > obstacles to Self Realization or Enlightenment. > > > > In my experience, I have seen many practitioners of TM, myself > > included, verify experiences of all of the uncommon 4 states of > > consciousness, and yet remain either delusional, miserable, or both. > > > > So long term TM cultures the physiology so that Enlightenment can be > > achieved instantaneously, and yet, other than building people's > > dreams only to intentionally dash them, and by extension, leave them > > naked to themselves, Maharishi, and his Movement, doesn't speak of > > the Self-inquiry necessary for Enlightenment. Rather, the emphasis > > is wholly on uncovering the Self; making the situation ripe for > > Enlightenment. > > > > The missing piece for me, and I suspect many other long time TMers, > > is the knowledge that a conscious choice must then be made, once the > > physiology is cultured, to eliminate the obstacles to living the > > Self, to recognizing the Self as ourselves. And this is done through > > Self-inquiry. > > > > So to say on the one hand, you are Realized; live it, is half the > > process, just as to practice TM is half the process. Together, there > > is a solution. > > > > Thoughts? Comments? > > Completely agree. The TM philosophy -- "Do nothing, > accomplish everything -- is horseshit and always has > been. Meditation is a good start. Work must be done > during the *entire* 23 hours or so that one is *not* > practiciing TM to make realization a firm reality. SSRS claims that many people spend years meditating and don't get enlightened because a key ingredient is missing in their practice: that element is called "grace." He claims that grace is easily activated by "service to others." Service also has the great benefit of instantly pushing all your buttons, so you can more easily see what to work on. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Completely agree. The TM philosophy -- "Do nothing, > accomplish everything -- is horseshit and always has > been. Obviously "Do nothing, accomplish everything" is NOT a "philosophy" of refraining from action. I believe I may have pointed this out to you before. It isn't a PREscription for how to live; it's a DEscription of life in enlightenment. The prescription for how to live is: "Established in Yoga, perform action." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 10/3/05 11:47 PM, "matrixmonitor" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > If novices are to accept anybody's Enlightenment, > then there is a > > general concensus even among other Sages such as > Adi Da, Swami > > Sivananda, Yogananda, and philsophers such as Ken > Wilber; that Ramana > > was not only Enlightened, but was the "greatest" > Sage of the 20th > > century. Some Buddhists may disagree with > Wilber's conclusion. I > > would rank Guru Dev on the same level, personally. > > Did he leave a body behind when he died? Yes, but within hours it turned into a pillar of sandlewood dust, floated into the air and took the shape of an "OM". Quite impressive. > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ~--> > Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make > Yahoo! your home page > http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM > ~-> > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "matrixmonitor" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > WHO is doing this, WHO is doing > > that...a question repeated asked by Ramana, Nisargadatta Maharaj, > and > > HWL Poonja. This is our interface with the previous post on "just > > Bbbeellvvee...and Be the Self!). Not so > easy, > > and why? Because they - the Neo-Advaitins have totally left out > the > > physiological component!!!. That's why MMY's contribution will be > > remembered throughout all history along with his grand invention : > TM > > as we practice it. HallaleulyaPraise God! I'd be a > > gonner...don't know about you. I might add that it's not really an > > ordinary belief (Self-Enquiry or Inquiry) - Ramana's main "method"; > > which in my opinion is unduly circular since one must be ALREADY > > Realized in order to "do it". Thus, it - Ramana's method - is > rather > > inferior when it comes to helping people on a lowly evolved gross > > level like myself. I need something more substantial to get > lifted up > > by the bootstraps; thus TMit works. Never could get anything > out > > of Self-Enquiry, it seems so unnecessary in view of TM which is so > > straightforward and readily bypasses all mental contrivances. > > > I agree on the one hand that the physiological component, as > expounded by Maharishi, and obviously central to the practice of TM, > is vital to achieve Enlightenment (though not exclusively through > TM). I also see, though, that TM, with its road markers identified > for TC, CC, GC, and UC, eventually runs the practitioner into a > wall. At least with regard to what is actually taught. And the last > bit, Self-Inquiry is then necessary to eliminate the final apparent > obstacles to Self Realization or Enlightenment. > > In my experience, I have seen many practitioners of TM, myself > included, verify experiences of all of the uncommon 4 states of > consciousness, and yet remain either delusional, miserable, or both. > > So long term TM cultures the physiology so that Enlightenment can be > achieved instantaneously, and yet, other than building people's > dreams only to intentionally dash them, and by extension, leave them > naked to themselves, Maharishi, and his Movement, doesn't speak of > the Self-inquiry necessary for Enlightenment. Rather, the emphasis > is wholly on uncovering the Self; making the situation ripe for > Enlightenment. > > The missing piece for me, and I suspect many other long time TMers, > is the knowledge that a conscious choice must then be made, once the > physiology is cultured, to eliminate the obstacles to living the > Self, to recognizing the Self as ourselves. And this is done through > Self-inquiry. > > So to say on the one hand, you are Realized; live it, is half the > process, just as to practice TM is half the process. Together, there > is a solution. > > Thoughts? Comments? Completely agree. The TM philosophy -- "Do nothing, accomplish everything -- is horseshit and always has been. Meditation is a good start. Work must be done during the *entire* 23 hours or so that one is *not* practiciing TM to make realization a firm reality. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "matrixmonitor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: WHO is doing this, WHO is doing > that...a question repeated asked by Ramana, Nisargadatta Maharaj, and > HWL Poonja. This is our interface with the previous post on "just > Bbbeellvvee...and Be the Self!). Not so easy, > and why? Because they - the Neo-Advaitins have totally left out the > physiological component!!!. That's why MMY's contribution will be > remembered throughout all history along with his grand invention : TM > as we practice it. HallaleulyaPraise God! I'd be a > gonner...don't know about you. I might add that it's not really an > ordinary belief (Self-Enquiry or Inquiry) - Ramana's main "method"; > which in my opinion is unduly circular since one must be ALREADY > Realized in order to "do it". Thus, it - Ramana's method - is rather > inferior when it comes to helping people on a lowly evolved gross > level like myself. I need something more substantial to get lifted up > by the bootstraps; thus TMit works. Never could get anything out > of Self-Enquiry, it seems so unnecessary in view of TM which is so > straightforward and readily bypasses all mental contrivances. I agree on the one hand that the physiological component, as expounded by Maharishi, and obviously central to the practice of TM, is vital to achieve Enlightenment (though not exclusively through TM). I also see, though, that TM, with its road markers identified for TC, CC, GC, and UC, eventually runs the practitioner into a wall. At least with regard to what is actually taught. And the last bit, Self-Inquiry is then necessary to eliminate the final apparent obstacles to Self Realization or Enlightenment. In my experience, I have seen many practitioners of TM, myself included, verify experiences of all of the uncommon 4 states of consciousness, and yet remain either delusional, miserable, or both. So long term TM cultures the physiology so that Enlightenment can be achieved instantaneously, and yet, other than building people's dreams only to intentionally dash them, and by extension, leave them naked to themselves, Maharishi, and his Movement, doesn't speak of the Self-inquiry necessary for Enlightenment. Rather, the emphasis is wholly on uncovering the Self; making the situation ripe for Enlightenment. The missing piece for me, and I suspect many other long time TMers, is the knowledge that a conscious choice must then be made, once the physiology is cultured, to eliminate the obstacles to living the Self, to recognizing the Self as ourselves. And this is done through Self-inquiry. So to say on the one hand, you are Realized; live it, is half the process, just as to practice TM is half the process. Together, there is a solution. Thoughts? Comments? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/3/05 11:47 PM, "matrixmonitor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If novices are to accept anybody's Enlightenment, then there is a > general concensus even among other Sages such as Adi Da, Swami > Sivananda, Yogananda, and philsophers such as Ken Wilber; that Ramana > was not only Enlightened, but was the "greatest" Sage of the 20th > century. Some Buddhists may disagree with Wilber's conclusion. I > would rank Guru Dev on the same level, personally. Did he leave a body behind when he died? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > on 10/2/05 7:49 PM, sinhlnx at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > The problem arises since Ramana Maharshi himself stated that any > > talk of "I'm Enlishtened" is a lot of nonsense since there's no "I" > > left to claim it. > > Everyone assumes Ramana Maharishi was enlightened. How did he convey that > fact? What phrases or descriptions of his own state did he use to convince > everyone? Do those in his lineage use similar phrases or descriptions, or do > they go on to say things Ramana never would have said? Good question! (from sinhlnx/matrixmonitor). In short (IMO - but not being an expert on Ramana - just a TM practitioner who combines TM with devotion to Him), trying to answer the above questions by parts: a. How did he convey that fact? Ans: first, from Ramana's own description of his merging into the Self on July 17th, 1896. It's very convincing, and I may come back tomorrow to write down his own words. a(2) Second, after his Enlightenment "experience" (note - there definitely were psycho/physical symptoms accompanied with Ramana's realization, a fact that I tried to emphasize in my previous post). And, since such symptoms do occur, it would be less than totally correct to say that Enlightenment can't be described. Apart from the Transcendental component, there are physiological correlates going along with stress release. And, although release of the "knots" has been described in ancient literature, MMY is definitely the first Guru to attempt describing the higher states of consciousness in terms of their physiological correlates of stress release; as we define stress in modern terms (especially since Hans Selye). Ramana - although describing certain psychophysiological symptoms, definitely didn't make the connection that MMY did, as a formal concept. a(3) Next, he conveyed the fact as a living embodiment of Skanda Himself, able to "suck" people into the Self merely by being in his presence. The very first recorded instance of this by a Westerner was the Theosophist T.H. Humphreys, who happened to find Ramana somehow, ventured into his cave, and was overwhelmed by the Radiance of His Being. a(4) during the early part of Ramana's career, we have the testimony of various other reputable Sages who met Him, and attested to His realization. a(5) later in Ramana's career, we have the testimony of various other people who became Enlightened in His presence, and then made outright claims of Enlightenment for themselves. Such testimonies are recorded in the works of David Godman, such as 1. The book "No Mind, I am the Self" by Godman, being a biography of a certain Laksmana who around 1947 became Enlightened in Ramana's Presence, and wrote "I have realized the Self" and handed the note to Ramana. Ramana is then said by observers to turned up his eyebrows, smiled and given some type of silent affirmation. But let's stop here: none of these circumstantial lines of evidence alone is proof of Ramana's attainment; but taken as a whole, especially the collected works of Ramana (he didn't write much, most of the collected works were recorded by others); there can be no doubt!...but again, this is not a mathematical proof. If novices are to accept anybody's Enlightenment, then there is a general concensus even among other Sages such as Adi Da, Swami Sivananda, Yogananda, and philsophers such as Ken Wilber; that Ramana was not only Enlightened, but was the "greatest" Sage of the 20th century. Some Buddhists may disagree with Wilber's conclusion. I would rank Guru Dev on the same level, personally. a(6) next, we have numerous inner plane experiences of countless people (myself among them), who have had remarkable encounters with Him, attesting (at least) to His Power; and further lending weight to the conclusion at hand; although I would hasten to add that I also have had a remarkable inner plane experience with Satan, but would not count that as a similar type of evidence. We must examine the lasting influence of the evidence...does it/they to lead in the long run (such inner plane experiences)to one's further progress on the Path, even culminating in Self-Realization ? (as in the case of some of the Neo-Advaitins who count Ramana as their teacher). Having said this we can list as a(7) Ramana's collected works, which I will refer to tonight in hopes of finding a statment of His at least close to an outright declaration of having realized the Self; if not something like "I realized the Self on July 17th, 1896", at least something close to it. a(8) Next, we can certainly count on the testimony of HWL Poonja, who became Enlightened in Ramana's Presence, whose many words have been recorded by David Godman and others. Again, we may attempt to pinpoint an outright declaration of Self-Realization but failing that, we have several volumes of HWL Poonja's statements regarding the nature of Enlightenment (but again falling short of MMY
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "eptfnj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > How do we convince others that we are enlightened? It has always > > worked for me on a frequency level, like a radio. Whenever I am in > > the presence of someone enlightened, my body resonates at that > > frequency of Wholeness. it is simple, obvious and unmistakable. > > The same can be said to happen when in proximity to charimatic, > wealthy and attractice people too. > Just some more subjective stuff arising from feelings etc.. > You are right, it is a resonant frequency with the beautiful and charismatic, though a different 'station' tuned in on the radio. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
> > First, anyone with a thirst to let others know how enlightened they > > are is mired in deep ignorance, and is either expoliting their > > followers, or has self-esteem issues. I'd say that anyone who *cares* "how enlightened" someone other than him- or herself is is wasting a lot of energy they could be using to either help other people or have fun or both. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And I've never had much success > > > convincing myself that "if only external element A -Z were changed, > > > I'd be happier". > > So you would not be happier if people stopped, in your view, dissing > the "ballsy" Rory? (even when in reality its all back and forth fun). Good question. Sure, I experience transient desires and their fulfillment, or lack thereof, and associate feelings with those experiences. That is a joy of being alive! In fact I am more fully engage in the transient events of my life than I ever was before, paradoxically. It just doesn't go all that deep. Nor would I stake my identity on the conformance on nonconformance of some percieved outside element in my life. Rather, the challenge is always to integrate myself with that preceived outside element. Hope that answers your question. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "eptfnj" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The crux of your inquiry seems to be not so much how do we know we > > are enlightened, but how do we share that or convince others that > > we are? > > What about - is there such a state labelled Enlightenment > and is it worthwhile attaining it? Forget about the > entertainment of lights, energy and sleep witnessing. Yes, Yes, Yes!!! The whole object of the exercise as I see it is two fold; to establish ourselves in a permanent state of non-changing existence, and therefore eliminate suffering. Everything else is either getting there, or enjoying it. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
And I've never had much success > > convincing myself that "if only external element A -Z were changed, > > I'd be happier". So you would not be happier if people stopped, in your view, dissing the "ballsy" Rory? (even when in reality its all back and forth fun). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
> The crux of your inquiry seems to be not so much how do we know we > are enlightened, but how do we share that or convince others that > we are? What about - is there such a state labelled Enlightenment and is it worthwhile attaining it? Forget about the entertainment of lights, energy and sleep witnessing. > First, anyone with a thirst to let others know how enlightened they > are is mired in deep ignorance, and is either expoliting their > followers, or has self-esteem issues. Same with money, sex, fame...etc. > How do we convince others that we are enlightened? It has always > worked for me on a frequency level, like a radio. Whenever I am in > the presence of someone enlightened, my body resonates at that > frequency of Wholeness. it is simple, obvious and unmistakable. The same can be said to happen when in proximity to charimatic, wealthy and attractice people too. Just some more subjective stuff arising from feelings etc.. > As far as my own criteria for my own enlightenment, it has always > been a simple one; how much am I enjoying myself, or suffering? > Gets rid of the BS right away. ...And I've never had much success > convincing myself that "if only external element A -Z were changed, > I'd be happier". Now, THATS a viewpoint that has merit. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sinhlnx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Excellent article on previous postmakes it all the more important > to formulate a set of objective/relative signs which attest to one's > Enlightenment, realization of the Self. But this is problematic > within the context of the groundrules laid out by the proponents of > Pseudo-Advaita, of where are many in the Web. A quick "google" can > uncover a few dozen of them. What's > your opinion? The crux of your inquiry seems to be not so much how do we know we are enlightened, but how do we share that or convince others that we are? First, anyone with a thirst to let others know how enlightened they are is mired in deep ignorance, and is either expoliting their followers, or has self-esteem issues. How do we convince others that we are enlightened? It has always worked for me on a frequency level, like a radio. Whenever I am in the presence of someone enlightened, my body resonates at that frequency of Wholeness. it is simple, obvious and unmistakable. As far as my own criteria for my own enlightenment, it has always been a simple one; how much am I enjoying myself, or suffering? Gets rid of the BS right away. ...And I've never had much success convincing myself that "if only external element A -Z were changed, I'd be happier". Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/3/05 12:37 PM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On 10/3/05 12:12 PM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> So Papaji shows contempt for his students, and that's >>> a virtue; >> >> He's merely saying 'listen, just because I gave you the taste of the >> non-dual state doesn't mean you're in it forever and it doesn't >> mean you are enlightened.' I find that very compassionate, not >> contemptuous. > > Well, actually he was saying, "I did it to get > rid of the leeches who were sticking to me" and > similar remarks (as quoted by you). I loved that. > >>> but MMY shows contempt for his students, and >>> that's not a virtue. >> >> I don't know that he has shown contempt. > > You don't believe what people have reported here? I'm not sure specifically what you are referring to. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sinhlnx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > What's > > > > > your opinion? > > > > > > > > Mine is this: We see what we want to see, and what we see is > > > *always* > > > > some aspect of our Self. (What else is there?) If what we see > > > doesn't > > > > *appear* to be some aspect of our Self, it's because we have > > certain > > > > preconceptions about what our Self *is* that don't match our > > > > perceptions. If we truly want to know our Self in its > fullness, > > we > > > are > > > > continually called and challenged to surrender our > > preconceptions > > > into > > > > an acceptance of that which is standing right in front of us. > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > Or, if this doesn't ring for us in this moment, perhaps we are > > called > > > in the opposite direction -- to completely deny everything we > have > > > identified with, until the Self stands utterly alone. Whole- > > hearted or > > > empty-hearted, the end-result would appear to be the same, so > long > > as > > > we are consistent and integral. > > > > Or inconsistent and fragmented; no matter; also good. This too, > and > > this neither. Believe in the dream or not, waking up is > inevitable, > > and we always support the dream in its entirety, whether we are > > consciously aligned with this support or not. :-( :-) :-( :-) > > > > There is no real way we can speed up or slow down the Realization > > that will never happen and that has already happened. Until we > > swallow time, and embrace the imperfection, we are swallowed by > it, > > and embraced by it. So? > > > > > :-) > > Swallowing time! I like that! Gulp... Aaaah... the taste that refreshes! :-) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 10/3/05 12:12 PM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > So Papaji shows contempt for his students, and that's > > a virtue; > > He's merely saying 'listen, just because I gave you the taste of the > non-dual state doesn't mean you're in it forever and it doesn't mean you are > enlightened.' I find that very compassionate, not contemptuous. Yes. I am thinking that a taste of the non-dual, whether from a teacher or from drugs, is probably still perceived as coming from the outside; one probably then still hasn't fully understood the mechanics of ignorance and of self-recognition... :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sinhlnx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > What's > > > > your opinion? > > > > > > Mine is this: We see what we want to see, and what we see is > > *always* > > > some aspect of our Self. (What else is there?) If what we see > > doesn't > > > *appear* to be some aspect of our Self, it's because we have > certain > > > preconceptions about what our Self *is* that don't match our > > > perceptions. If we truly want to know our Self in its fullness, > we > > are > > > continually called and challenged to surrender our > preconceptions > > into > > > an acceptance of that which is standing right in front of us. > > > > > > :-) > > > > Or, if this doesn't ring for us in this moment, perhaps we are > called > > in the opposite direction -- to completely deny everything we have > > identified with, until the Self stands utterly alone. Whole- > hearted or > > empty-hearted, the end-result would appear to be the same, so long > as > > we are consistent and integral. > > Or inconsistent and fragmented; no matter; also good. This too, and > this neither. Believe in the dream or not, waking up is inevitable, > and we always support the dream in its entirety, whether we are > consciously aligned with this support or not. :-( :-) :-( :-) > > There is no real way we can speed up or slow down the Realization > that will never happen and that has already happened. Until we > swallow time, and embrace the imperfection, we are swallowed by it, > and embraced by it. So? > > > :-) Swallowing time! I like that! Gulp... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/3/05 12:12 PM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > So Papaji shows contempt for his students, and that's > > a virtue; > > He's merely saying 'listen, just because I gave you the taste of the > non-dual state doesn't mean you're in it forever and it doesn't > mean you are enlightened.' I find that very compassionate, not > contemptuous. Well, actually he was saying, "I did it to get rid of the leeches who were sticking to me" and similar remarks (as quoted by you). > > but MMY shows contempt for his students, and > > that's not a virtue. > > I don't know that he has shown contempt. You don't believe what people have reported here? > > > > > OK, just wanted to get that straight. > > OK. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/3/05 12:12 PM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So Papaji shows contempt for his students, and that's > a virtue; He's merely saying 'listen, just because I gave you the taste of the non-dual state doesn't mean you're in it forever and it doesn't mean you are enlightened.' I find that very compassionate, not contemptuous. > but MMY shows contempt for his students, and > that's not a virtue. I don't know that he has shown contempt. > > OK, just wanted to get that straight. OK. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 10/3/05 11:23 AM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> On 10/3/05 10:06 AM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >>> Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his > >>> Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. > >>> I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? > >> > >> I must have missed that. Please explain. > > > > Seems pretty self-explanatory to me. What would you > > like to have explained? > > > > And what's your response to my question? > > You're right: no. So Papaji shows contempt for his students, and that's a virtue; but MMY shows contempt for his students, and that's not a virtue. OK, just wanted to get that straight. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/3/05 11:23 AM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On 10/3/05 10:06 AM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his >>> Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. >>> I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? >> >> I must have missed that. Please explain. > > Seems pretty self-explanatory to me. What would you > like to have explained? > > And what's your response to my question? You're right: no. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Oh, I see. I thought you had quoted that exchange > > > with Papaji to highlight his misbehavior toward his > > > students, lying to them to get rid of them and so on. > > > > > > Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his > > > Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. > > > I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? > > > > HA! We see what we need to see, all right. If we cannot accept > > imperfections with unconditional Love, we will see them everywhere > > until we can! > > Heck, and here I thought that if Papaji's contempt > for his students wasn't an imperfection, I didn't > have to take MMY's contempt for *his* students as > an imperfection either. > > You should be complimenting me for having managed > to turn it around and seeing perfection where I > once saw imperfection. > I thought I was! :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/3/05 10:06 AM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his > > Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. > > I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? > > I must have missed that. Please explain. Seems pretty self-explanatory to me. What would you like to have explained? And what's your response to my question? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Oh, I see. I thought you had quoted that exchange > > with Papaji to highlight his misbehavior toward his > > students, lying to them to get rid of them and so on. > > > > Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his > > Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. > > I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? > > HA! We see what we need to see, all right. If we cannot accept > imperfections with unconditional Love, we will see them everywhere > until we can! Heck, and here I thought that if Papaji's contempt for his students wasn't an imperfection, I didn't have to take MMY's contempt for *his* students as an imperfection either. You should be complimenting me for having managed to turn it around and seeing perfection where I once saw imperfection. (you-know-what coming up a few lines below; you may want > to stop reading now) > > > (Seriously, stop reading now or you may get mildly irritated) > > > > (or even more than mildly irritated) > > > > (well you can't say I didn't warn you) > > > :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/3/05 10:06 AM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his > Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. > I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? I must have missed that. Please explain. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
Or we just see them as old friends. If we know how to relax into the natural state, we can take notice and they self-liberate--as the yogis say 'like dew in the sun'. " In self-liberation observing the object¹ (gcer-grol), by looking directly at the discursive, intuitive or super-subtle thought that is present at a given moment, what the thought is in truthwhich is also what the mental subject looking at it is in truthis recognized; in other words, the state of knowledge [Tib: rigpa, Skt: vidya] fully manifests. This has been compared to the recognition of an old friend, because what is thus recognized is one¹s own Essence. One recognizes one¹s own original face which precedes any form something more intimate and more one¹s own than the most intimate of friends. This recognition is not the recognition of an object in terms of a concept or idea, but completely surpasses that type of recognition. It¹s not that one thinks to oneself: the thought or concept now presenting itself is nothing other than the true condition or the primordial nature of all existence¹, but that the mental subject disappears together with the thought that it had taken as an object. Since the duality of a subject and an object instantly disappears, together with the importance that we normally attribute to our experience, the tensions that normally tie up our existence are instantly cut, like the string tying a bundle of wood. As soon as this happens, the primordial state manifests in absolute relaxation. This mode or capacity of liberation is illustrated with the image of recognizing an old friend¹ in many Dzogchen texts, and is indicated by the words namtok no she pe drolwa¹ (rnam-rtog ngo-shes-pas grol-ba)." On 10/3/05 10:25 AM, "akasha_108" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Everything else is just the mind trying to resolve >> conflicts primarily by making everything that is in >> disagreement with it "wrong" and everything that >> agrees with it "right." We all are such frigging >> morons! > > Or we treat any and all thoughts as just thoughts -- not giving it any > special status as "true" just because its "mine". The (trained) > intellect can help discern between thoughts that are true and useful, > and those that don't hold up, and are a relection of some inner > limitation. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On 10/3/05 8:49 AM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Thanks for the rundown. Seems odd to me, though, > > to lump pseudo- and neo-Advaitins together if Papaji > > is an example of the former and Ramana of the latter. > > Not what I was trying to convey. Papaji was the real juju. He transmitted > the non-dual state to some of his American students who felt they were now > enlightened. They returned to the US and helped foster what is now termed > "pseudo-advaita--at least in the current sense, it's probably older. Andrew > Cohen was one of the "leeches" who brought back his alleged "enlightenment". > Around this that time pseudo-advaita become a larger and more noticeable > trend. > > "It seems that the pauperisation of satsang culture began after the death > of Poonjaji. Many of his followers started to claim that Poonjaji approved > their awakening.' It seems that they just took him too literally. It is an > Advaita custom to say 'you are already awakened.' This is however more a > teaching device than a reflection of reality. And even if some of his > disciples had a glimpse of awakening, Poonjaji knew very well that in most > cases neither it was permanent nor the final state. An example was Andrew > Cohen who was sent to give satsang in the west. He was meant to represent > Poonjaji and attract more westerners to Lucknow. But he and others thought > that Poonjaji actually conformed his Enlightenment. For that reason, Cohen > became very hurt when Poonjaji started to criticize him when he began to act > as a master. From this wound came later the magazine 'What is > Enlightenment?' which more represents Cohen's own insecurity and an > unsuccessful attempt to heal himself than a genuine search for clarity." So we see that the Jhanas are not only at the heart of his teaching, but also were at the heart of his own practise. EVEN SO, ALL EIGHT JHANAS WERE STILL NOT ENOUGH. THE BUDDHA'S "BREAKTHROUGH" TRANSPIRED ONLY AFTER HE HAD "SURPASSED" THE EIGHTH AND FINAL JHANA!! HIS AWAKENING DID NOT OCCUR "IN" THE EIGHTH JHANA BUT "BEYOND" IT. IT IS IN THAT REALM OF "BEYOND" BEYOND THE BEYOND WHEREIN THE JEWEL OF THE ANCIENTS CAN BE REALIZED BY ALL. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Everything else is just the mind trying to resolve > > conflicts primarily by making everything that is in > > disagreement with it "wrong" and everything that > > agrees with it "right." We all are such frigging > > morons! > > Or we treat any and all thoughts as just thoughts -- not giving it any > special status as "true" just because its "mine". The (trained) > intellect can help discern between thoughts that are true and useful, > and those that don't hold up, and are a relection of some inner > limitation. Here's a thought. Are *any* thoughts true and useful? And is this your thought or mine? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Oh, I see. I thought you had quoted that exchange > with Papaji to highlight his misbehavior toward his > students, lying to them to get rid of them and so on. > > Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his > Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. > I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? HA! We see what we need to see, all right. If we cannot accept imperfections with unconditional Love, we will see them everywhere until we can! (you-know-what coming up a few lines below; you may want to stop reading now) (Seriously, stop reading now or you may get mildly irritated) (or even more than mildly irritated) (well you can't say I didn't warn you) :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sinhlnx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > What's > > > your opinion? > > > > Mine is this: We see what we want to see, and what we see is > *always* > > some aspect of our Self. (What else is there?) If what we see > doesn't > > *appear* to be some aspect of our Self, it's because we have certain > > preconceptions about what our Self *is* that don't match our > > perceptions. If we truly want to know our Self in its fullness, we > are > > continually called and challenged to surrender our preconceptions > into > > an acceptance of that which is standing right in front of us. > > > > :-) > > Or, if this doesn't ring for us in this moment, perhaps we are called > in the opposite direction -- to completely deny everything we have > identified with, until the Self stands utterly alone. Whole- hearted or > empty-hearted, the end-result would appear to be the same, so long as > we are consistent and integral. Or inconsistent and fragmented; no matter; also good. This too, and this neither. Believe in the dream or not, waking up is inevitable, and we always support the dream in its entirety, whether we are consciously aligned with this support or not. :-( :-) :-( :-) There is no real way we can speed up or slow down the Realization that will never happen and that has already happened. Until we swallow time, and embrace the imperfection, we are swallowed by it, and embraced by it. So? > :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Everything else is just the mind trying to resolve > conflicts primarily by making everything that is in > disagreement with it "wrong" and everything that > agrees with it "right." We all are such frigging > morons! Or we treat any and all thoughts as just thoughts -- not giving it any special status as "true" just because its "mine". The (trained) intellect can help discern between thoughts that are true and useful, and those that don't hold up, and are a relection of some inner limitation. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 10/3/05 8:49 AM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Thanks for the rundown. Seems odd to me, though, > > to lump pseudo- and neo-Advaitins together if Papaji > > is an example of the former and Ramana of the latter. > > Not what I was trying to convey. Papaji was the real juju. He > transmitted the non-dual state to some of his American students who > felt they were now enlightened. They returned to the US and helped > foster what is now termed "pseudo-advaita--at least in the current > sense, it's probably older. Andrew Cohen was one of the "leeches" > who brought back his alleged "enlightenment". Oh, I see. I thought you had quoted that exchange with Papaji to highlight his misbehavior toward his students, lying to them to get rid of them and so on. Some here have claimed MMY expressed contempt for his Western students, saying how easily they were fooled. I guess that's really a virtue, then, no? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/3/05 8:49 AM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thanks for the rundown. Seems odd to me, though, > to lump pseudo- and neo-Advaitins together if Papaji > is an example of the former and Ramana of the latter. Not what I was trying to convey. Papaji was the real juju. He transmitted the non-dual state to some of his American students who felt they were now enlightened. They returned to the US and helped foster what is now termed "pseudo-advaita--at least in the current sense, it's probably older. Andrew Cohen was one of the "leeches" who brought back his alleged "enlightenment". Around this that time pseudo-advaita become a larger and more noticeable trend. "It seems that the pauperisation of satsang culture began after the death of Poonjaji. Many of his followers started to claim that Poonjaji approved their awakening.' It seems that they just took him too literally. It is an Advaita custom to say 'you are already awakened.' This is however more a teaching device than a reflection of reality. And even if some of his disciples had a glimpse of awakening, Poonjaji knew very well that in most cases neither it was permanent nor the final state. An example was Andrew Cohen who was sent to give satsang in the west. He was meant to represent Poonjaji and attract more westerners to Lucknow. But he and others thought that Poonjaji actually conformed his Enlightenment. For that reason, Cohen became very hurt when Poonjaji started to criticize him when he began to act as a master. From this wound came later the magazine 'What is Enlightenment?' which more represents Cohen's own insecurity and an unsuccessful attempt to heal himself than a genuine search for clarity." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/2/05 9:21 PM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sinhlnx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> 1. In the Pseudo- or Neo-Advaitin "tradition": Ramana Maharshi, > >> HWL Poonja, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Gangaji, I-Nome, Andrew Cohen, > >> Adi Da, etc > > > > I just skimmed the article, so maybe this is > > answered and I missed it, but why would Ramana > > be a Neo-Advaitin? More generally, what's the > > distinction between pseudo- and Neo-Advaitins > > and Advaitins? > > My impression would be that Ramana was "neo" because he helped usher in a > new trend where there wasn't teaching of techniques and methods. People came > and hung out with him in satsangs rather than practicing all the various > methods used in Advaita. IIRC all he taught was a form of self inquiry. > > Pseudo advaita seems to be a product of spiritual consumerism which seems to > produce a kind of consumer narcissism. It not real nondualism but a faux > nondualism. None of these people who hold "satsangs" possess any realization > that is acknowledged or authenticated by a realized being or tradition that > I have seen. They often follow a "satsang" format where those who feel they > are "awakened" share their experiences with others. Thanks for the rundown. Seems odd to me, though, to lump pseudo- and neo-Advaitins together if Papaji is an example of the former and Ramana of the latter. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
On 10/2/05 9:21 PM, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sinhlnx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> 1. In the Pseudo- or Neo-Advaitin "tradition": Ramana Maharshi, >> HWL Poonja, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Gangaji, I-Nome, Andrew Cohen, >> Adi Da, etc > > I just skimmed the article, so maybe this is > answered and I missed it, but why would Ramana > be a Neo-Advaitin? More generally, what's the > distinction between pseudo- and Neo-Advaitins > and Advaitins? My impression would be that Ramana was "neo" because he helped usher in a new trend where there wasn't teaching of techniques and methods. People came and hung out with him in satsangs rather than practicing all the various methods used in Advaita. IIRC all he taught was a form of self inquiry. Pseudo advaita seems to be a product of spiritual consumerism which seems to produce a kind of consumer narcissism. It not real nondualism but a faux nondualism. None of these people who hold "satsangs" possess any realization that is acknowledged or authenticated by a realized being or tradition that I have seen. They often follow a "satsang" format where those who feel they are "awakened" share their experiences with others. This movement seems to have really caught on via Papaji (Sri H.W.L. Poonja), whose comments on "satsang culture" are worth reading: David Godman interviews Papaji: David: ³You used to give experiences to a lot of people. Why did you do it if you knew that the effect would not be permanent?² Papaji: ³I did it to get rid of the leeches who were sticking to me, never allowing me to rest or be by myself. It was a very good way of getting rid of all these leeches in a polite way. I knew that in doing this I was giving lollipops to the ignorant and innocent, but this is what these people wanted. When I tried to give $100 bills to them, they rejected them. They thought that they were just pieces of paper. So I gave them lollipops instead. David: Many of the people you gave lollipops to left Lucknow thinking that they were enlightened. Does the fact that they accepted the lollipop and left indicate that they were not worthy to receive the $100 bills? Papaji: ³If one is not a holy person, one is not worthy to receive the real teaching. Many people think that they have attained the final state of full and complete liberation. They have fooled themselves, and they have fooled many other people, But they have not fooled me. A person in this state is like a fake coin. It may look like the real thing. It can be passed around and used by ignorant people who use it to buy things with. People who have it in their pocket can boast of having a genuine coin, but it is not real. It has no value. When it is finally discovered to be a fake, the person who is circulating it, claiming that it is real, is subject to the penalties of the law. In the spiritual world, the law of karma catches up and deals with all people who are trafficking in fake experiences. I have never passed on the truth to those whom I could see were fake coins. These people may look like gold and they may glitter like gold, but they have no real value. There are many people who can put on a show and fool other people into believing they are enlightened.² --- Most if not all of the westerners behind this movement are "fake coins" from what I can grok. It's really about feeling good about small self and consolidating ego. No practices necessary. Thus the term "pseudo". Traditional advaita Vedanta is a rather systematic path. Often when the student is ripe, the teacher imparts the experience of the nondual state. And of course there are other forms of Advaita as well, like Sri Vidya (Guru Dev's path). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
> This begs the question then - are these "real" symptons of a Ego > are just apparent symptoms ? I say - a cow is a cow regardless. > What's your opinion? A person "self-stimulates" themselves while viewing/reading a pornographic magazine. The resulting physiological reaction is actual. The feelings arising are quite real to the person. The person proclaims "I am the greater lover of all". Real to them. Maybe others that read porno books and do self-stimulation can relate. Illusion? Reading so-called Holy Books and effortlessly thinking some "special word" can create interesting feelings and physiological reactions. Enlightenment or illusion? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sinhlnx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What's > > your opinion? > > Mine is this: We see what we want to see, and what we see is *always* > some aspect of our Self. (What else is there?) If what we see doesn't > *appear* to be some aspect of our Self, it's because we have certain > preconceptions about what our Self *is* that don't match our > perceptions. If we truly want to know our Self in its fullness, we are > continually called and challenged to surrender our preconceptions into > an acceptance of that which is standing right in in front of us. > > :-) Or, if this doesn't ring for us in this moment, perhaps we are called in the opposite direction -- to completely deny everything we have identified with, until the Self stands utterly alone. Whole-hearted or empty-hearted, the end-result would appear to be the same, so long as we are consistent and integral. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sinhlnx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: What's > your opinion? Mine is this: We see what we want to see, and what we see is *always* some aspect of our Self. (What else is there?) If what we see doesn't *appear* to be some aspect of our Self, it's because we have certain preconceptions about what our Self *is* that don't match our perceptions. If we truly want to know our Self in its fullness, we are continually called and challenged to surrender our preconceptions into an acceptance of that which is standing right in in front of us. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Dangers of Pseudo-Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sinhlnx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 1. In the Pseudo- or Neo-Advaitin "tradition": Ramana Maharshi, > HWL Poonja, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Gangaji, I-Nome, Andrew Cohen, > Adi Da, etc I just skimmed the article, so maybe this is answered and I missed it, but why would Ramana be a Neo-Advaitin? More generally, what's the distinction between pseudo- and Neo-Advaitins and Advaitins? > The problem arises since Ramana Maharshi himself stated that any > talk of "I'm Enlishtened" is a lot of nonsense since there's no "I" > left to claim it. Seems to me one shouldn't get so hung up on words that one is left without a way to communicate one's state of consciousness. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
