Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence
On Apr 2, 2011, at 11:20 AM, tartbrain wrote: > Rolfing is not (yet) approved. On one of the BatGap interviews, a woman said > she gave and received a lot of energy work before and after unfoldment. And > cited Rolfing (thats different from Ralphing") as a method for huge release > of emotional (pain body) energy stored in ones muscles (and perhaps subtle > body parts associated with muscles.) I know Rolfing was popular among some TM > teachers in the early 70's. Anyone tried it recently? Effects? Eva Reich, Wilhelm's daughter, was a friend of ours and she guided me into this type of work, which really originated with her father as Orgonomy. Ida Rolf was one of WR's students. So I went through the entire rolfing sequence, guided by advice from Eva. I found it extremely helpful in gaining a self sustaining "root relaxation" for my body and my energy. Apparently rolfing can be quite painful for some people, esp. the levels which work with releasing the psoas muscle but I really enjoyed it thoroughly. A great and entertaining read on this type of deep body work is Orson Bean's "Me and the Orgone". Often hilarious and deeply inspirational.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence
On Apr 2, 2011, at 12:03 AM, Yifu wrote: > Vetting by resume can be helpful, but the bottom line: direct experience. > Vaj's family judged the book by the cover and thus missed out on something; a > frequent happenstance among intellectual elites who fail to take the plunge. > The Skeptic Michael Shermer is a typical example, although he did have some > experience as an Evangelical Christian before becoming a athiest. They realized he was a conman, long before most did. I'd say they were pretty insightful.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence
On Apr 1, 2011, at 11:37 PM, seventhray1 wrote: > Warning: Grammatically Challenged Reply: > > I kind of get the impression that you are describing a very linear process. > For me it would be more like an experiential lab that a teacher went through, using themselves as the experiment and the experimenter. They learn by living it and then share. It's not a living tradition if awakening isn't passed on. > And my experience on what I would call the "spiritual journey" has been > anything but. And the one thing I don't, or won't do is doubt my experience. > For me, discrimination is key, as self-deception and ego expansion are so common. It's so common to project the most exalted beliefs onto the most inconsequential experiences. That is, sadly, just human nature. > I don't care if I'm stuck in some pseudo/shallow samadhi during meditation, > or if I am stuck on some relative plane with little chance of progressing in > my outer life. I am enjoying the ride, and I try to live in the present. I > trust my experience, and it has been my teacher. > I trust my experience some of the time and other times I do not. The path if anything has shown how the ego works. > Whether I have a formal teacher doesn't matter to me. Sometimes I get the > impression that the credentials of your teachers mean more than the > experiences you might have. > We were discussing teachers. I just won't tolerate phonies or businessmen disguised as gurus anymore. Of course experience and the hundreds of realizations one will have are very important, self deception (other than learning what it is and how it operates) isn't that important, or blabbing about them out of context. That's been the crux of my own training. > What I would never do is try to pick apart my experinece and determine if the > faculty of intuition that has been the foremost principle for me is based on > the highest teaching, or something lesser. On the other hand, whatever you > are doing seems to work for you. > > And I guess you must have taken a pretty big bite out of the TM apple because > if you would have just looked at it, and walked away, I don't think you > would be such a heavy poster on this site. Having said that, I mostly enjoy > your insights. But you seem to take a more formal, or academic approach > which doesn't really appeal to me. > > Compared to my fellow practitioners, some of who are actual academics or scholars, I'm not much so. From what I can tell I'm a typical married tantric in a lot of ways. But I am informed.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence
On Apr 1, 2011, at 1:31 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: > >> Basically the only people who are doing this do a lengthy >> psychological evaluation and profile, along with long questionnaire >> and interview of all the various developmental issues one dealt with >> in their lives. Then and only then do they engage in a two week >> retreat to evaluate what type of diversion (of kundalini) the person >> may have or where their spiritual path can best progress from. > > I was hoping you would respond Vaj because I know you have given a lot of > thought to this issue. I don't know if two weeks is the right amount of > time, having spent much longer on TM courses it seems a bit short. But what > do I know! Understand they're looking for a known set of signs as to what has happened and what the student's experience is. Also, each of the two people I'm referring to possesses a degree of awakening where they're able to discern the students system at a subtle level. A full awakening of kundalini implies a level of awakening where you're able to enter and experience each petal, each channel wheel, at will. In other words, 'they've been there, did that' before they authorized to really even teach about it, let alone help someone. > >> >> Of course the best thing to prevent to do to prevent this from >> happening in the first place is to avoid disreputable teachers like >> the plague. > > This is the problem isn't it? by what criteria could a person judge this? > It seems that every system has their own criteria. For Maharishi if you dug > you experience of TM then you could go for more, dig that, here is more and > on and on. Personal experience is so compelling it is hard for a person to > argue that even with these experiences I have made a mistake and need to seek > someone else. The limiting factor in my case was my family. They'd dealt with and known various yogis and lamas in the Himalayas for many decades before I was born. None of them, not one trusted Mahesh. ALL refused any instruction in TM. And, of course, it turned out they were right. My own investigation was pretty easy: I approached representatives of the order he claimed to come from and simply asked them. Around the same time, back in the 80's I found out from a former Shankaracharya that Mahesh was a leading suspect in the poisoning of SBS. Shortly thereafter the "businessman" in the Sexy Sadie files, who is a close friend, told me the details of Judith's story immediately after they met. It was clear there were numerous others teaching in the same lineage who were legit. SO I dropped any association with the TM movement right then and there. But I was and always have been very, very fortunate: all I had to do was ask, and it was as if the answers fell into my lap. > > > This type of scenario is largely the by-product of faux >> kundalini yoga and meditation teachers IME. From the POV of these >> traditions, being trapped in such an energetic state can mean >> transmigration through the "lower realms" over many, many lives. I >> hope they enjoyed their hopping on foam a hell of a lot. > > Ouch! I sure did my share of foam hopping in my day. I'm not sure any human > could make this claim definitively (I understand you are quoting the > tradition here.) It seems to imply a knowledge of a lot of stuff I'm not > sure people could demonstrate a knowledge of. (like everything that happens > after death or whether TM actually does activate the "faux kundlini". (phrase > of the week IMO!) Well, I'm not necessarily referring to you or to sidhas in general, but those who were damaged by these practices. You may not be aware, but the tantric teachings on kundalini state that if your kundalini was awakened in a previous existence, you maintain that awakening across existences. IMO the people who seem to be effected negatively were all people whose initial awakening occurred as a result of TM or TM-sidhi practices. That's not to say that some people could not or do not have positive awakening experiences with TM. If the circumstances are just right, anything is possible -- but IMO, that kinda thing is rare. > But I'm sure you get the issue that even such teachers that you consider > experts may not have the expertise necessary to deal with people with mental > disorders who come to their courses. Some would, some would not. That is improving. It's relatively common to have a psychiatric question or two on course forms: "do you currently or have you ever had any of the following..." > But with an interest in the idea of choosing a reputable teacher, how would a > person go about such a task. Don't most seekers believe that they are sort > of lead to THEIR teacher? I remember corresponding to Shri Chinmoy's > organization before I went with Maharishi about how to know if you have the > right guru. They sent back some
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence
On Apr 1, 2011, at 12:10 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: Here are the problems I see. First who has the training in both mental health and chakras to a level that there can be a definitive diagnosis of one or the other paradigm? The Catholic church sends all exorcism cases to a psychiatrist first to rule out known mental disorders. Is this how spiritual groups operate? If not they are not in a knowledge position to distinguish the reported experiences from known mental conditions. As long as the experiences are not causing distress to the person this type of experience is usually just ignored by most mental health professionals anyway. So we are left with a person "trained" in "chakra knowledge" to work with the person who is experiencing these things. Due to the nature of the subjective detail and the downsides of bad advice (all within the belief system of the chakra experts) this kind of interaction is going to take some significant time. So whether you believe these are valuable experiences or not, we have the bottom line problem. The closest correlate to the time consuming interaction needed is the mental health field which is often paid for by insurance. Who is going to finance the needed interaction with the "experts" of "chakra knowldege"? I am assuming that there aren't a whole bunch of people who can step up and serve in this capacity so their time is extremely valuable. Not to mention how we would actually sort out what makes someone qualified to offer this advice. In any case the idea that TM teachers could offer this expertise in checking sessions is not realistic. They are not trained in chakras or the ability to distinguish this class of experiences from mental problems. Having checked the meditations of people who ended up with a diagnosis of schizophrenia, I can say that the checking procedure is not only insufficient for this class of person, it may be very dangerous and make the situation much worse. So even if you are going to believe in this system of development, I can't see a realistic structure of professionals dealing with these people. From my perspective I can only hope that TM or other practices are not plunging people into experiences for which there is no support structure or knowledge base to deal with them. Basically the only people who are doing this do a lengthy psychological evaluation and profile, along with long questionnaire and interview of all the various developmental issues one dealt with in their lives. Then and only then do they engage in a two week retreat to evaluate what type of diversion (of kundalini) the person may have or where their spiritual path can best progress from. Of course the best thing to prevent to do to prevent this from happening in the first place is to avoid disreputable teachers like the plague. This type of scenario is largely the by-product of faux kundalini yoga and meditation teachers IME. From the POV of these traditions, being trapped in such an energetic state can mean transmigration through the "lower realms" over many, many lives. I hope they enjoyed their hopping on foam a hell of a lot.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence
On Mar 31, 2011, at 7:06 PM, emptybill wrote: We've been over this before. In Buddhism, samaadhi means dharana while dhyana-samaapatti is absorption in meditation. "Transcendence" is a western concept. In Sanskrit, the term (taraatitaa) is not officially used also (in Buddhism). Sometimes "transcendence" is used by western educated people as a synonym for Nirvana. It would be different translations of two different words which are descriptive of the same experience of settling down in the thinking process. The Sanskrit word for "transcendental" is "bhavatita". There are hundreds of types of samadhi but according to Tsongkhapa they all fall under the dual classification of quiesence and insight. Furthermore you can divide quiesence into discursive meditation and stabilizing meditation. TM style meditation would fall under the classification of quiesence, of which there are hundreds of kinds. The two are complementary, as relying on quiesence or transcendence alone, one tends to get addicted to the thought-free states and to bliss. That's why in the Dzogchen four yogas, transcendence is dropped after it's result is stable, after a couple of weeks or so.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:14 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence I hope she's doing okay now. If you're having intense kundalini the last thing you want to do are asanas! She needed to go out and have an emergency hamburger or two! She's doing great now. Awakened after leaving the movement and sitting with various satsang teachers. --- On Thu, 3/31/11, Rick Archer wrote: From: Rick Archer Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, March 31, 2011, 3:34 PM From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter L Sutphen Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 1:34 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence Unguided practice. My biggest "complaint" about TM and the TM siddhis. As long as progress is slow and gentle, not a problem for the most part. But when experiences begin to move into self transcendence and all the cognitive and emotional uproar this will create, you need a guru. I was just chatting with someone who had experienced this. She was writhing on the floor at 3am with her Kundalini on fire. Sidhi administrators told her to try a vata pacifying diet and more asanas. Peter On Mar 31, 2011, at 2:25 PM, Vaj wrote: On Mar 31, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Buck wrote: One of the Bobby Roth TM questioners last week that I thought was most interesting was the young woman MUM student from New Mexico asking about more guidance with chakra energy work and hoping for services at MUM with this for people who would need help with that, besides meditating. It obviously was out of Bobby's realm as he mostly let it slide by without touching it. On the Ayurveda training course with Chopra in FF it was told that Mahesh had tried to buy out the families that preserved the traditions of Kalarippayattu, which contained all the secrets of the marmas and the nadis in an oral tradition, the written versions of which made no sense unless you'd received actual practical instruction. The families who held the teaching could not be bought, at any price. And thus the teachings were never given to the movement. Their main person, John Douiliard, found a master who taught the science and moved on. To this day that guru comes back to FF to help rescue the many damaged by the siddhis, pranic disease and unguided practice. Who is that guru?
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence
I hope she's doing okay now. If you're having intense kundalini the last thing you want to do are asanas! She needed to go out and have an emergency hamburger or two! --- On Thu, 3/31/11, Rick Archer wrote: From: Rick Archer Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, March 31, 2011, 3:34 PM From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter L Sutphen Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 1:34 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence Unguided practice. My biggest "complaint" about TM and the TM siddhis. As long as progress is slow and gentle, not a problem for the most part. But when experiences begin to move into self transcendence and all the cognitive and emotional uproar this will create, you need a guru. I was just chatting with someone who had experienced this. She was writhing on the floor at 3am with her Kundalini on fire. Sidhi administrators told her to try a vata pacifying diet and more asanas. Peter On Mar 31, 2011, at 2:25 PM, Vaj wrote: On Mar 31, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Buck wrote: One of the Bobby Roth TM questioners last week that I thought was most interesting was the young woman MUM student from New Mexico asking about more guidance with chakra energy work and hoping for services at MUM with this for people who would need help with that, besides meditating. It obviously was out of Bobby's realm as he mostly let it slide by without touching it. On the Ayurveda training course with Chopra in FF it was told that Mahesh had tried to buy out the families that preserved the traditions of Kalarippayattu, which contained all the secrets of the marmas and the nadis in an oral tradition, the written versions of which made no sense unless you'd received actual practical instruction. The families who held the teaching could not be bought, at any price. And thus the teachings were never given to the movement. Their main person, John Douiliard, found a master who taught the science and moved on. To this day that guru comes back to FF to help rescue the many damaged by the siddhis, pranic disease and unguided practice. Who is that guru?
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Vaj Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 1:25 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence On the Ayurveda training course with Chopra in FF it was told that Mahesh had tried to buy out the families that preserved the traditions of Kalarippayattu, which contained all the secrets of the marmas and the nadis in an oral tradition, the written versions of which made no sense unless you'd received actual practical instruction. The families who held the teaching could not be bought, at any price. And thus the teachings were never given to the movement. Their main person, John Douiliard, found a master who taught the science and moved on. To this day that guru comes back to FF to help rescue the many damaged by the siddhis, pranic disease and unguided practice. Who is that guru?
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter L Sutphen Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 1:34 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence Unguided practice. My biggest "complaint" about TM and the TM siddhis. As long as progress is slow and gentle, not a problem for the most part. But when experiences begin to move into self transcendence and all the cognitive and emotional uproar this will create, you need a guru. I was just chatting with someone who had experienced this. She was writhing on the floor at 3am with her Kundalini on fire. Sidhi administrators told her to try a vata pacifying diet and more asanas. Peter On Mar 31, 2011, at 2:25 PM, Vaj wrote: On Mar 31, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Buck wrote: One of the Bobby Roth TM questioners last week that I thought was most interesting was the young woman MUM student from New Mexico asking about more guidance with chakra energy work and hoping for services at MUM with this for people who would need help with that, besides meditating. It obviously was out of Bobby's realm as he mostly let it slide by without touching it. On the Ayurveda training course with Chopra in FF it was told that Mahesh had tried to buy out the families that preserved the traditions of Kalarippayattu, which contained all the secrets of the marmas and the nadis in an oral tradition, the written versions of which made no sense unless you'd received actual practical instruction. The families who held the teaching could not be bought, at any price. And thus the teachings were never given to the movement. Their main person, John Douiliard, found a master who taught the science and moved on. To this day that guru comes back to FF to help rescue the many damaged by the siddhis, pranic disease and unguided practice. Who is that guru?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence
Unguided practice. My biggest "complaint" about TM and the TM siddhis. As long as progress is slow and gentle, not a problem for the most part. But when experiences begin to move into self transcendence and all the cognitive and emotional uproar this will create, you need a guru. Peter On Mar 31, 2011, at 2:25 PM, Vaj wrote: > > > > On Mar 31, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Buck wrote: > >> One of the Bobby Roth TM questioners last week that I thought was most >> interesting was the young woman MUM student from New Mexico asking about >> more guidance with chakra energy work and hoping for services at MUM with >> this for people who would need help with that, besides meditating. It >> obviously was out of Bobby's realm as he mostly let it slide by without >> touching it. > > > On the Ayurveda training course with Chopra in FF it was told that Mahesh had > tried to buy out the families that preserved the traditions of > Kalarippayattu, which contained all the secrets of the marmas and the nadis > in an oral tradition, the written versions of which made no sense unless > you'd received actual practical instruction. The families who held the > teaching could not be bought, at any price. And thus the teachings were never > given to the movement. Their main person, John Douiliard, found a master who > taught the science and moved on. To this day that guru comes back to FF to > help rescue the many damaged by the siddhis, pranic disease and unguided > practice. > > >
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Subtle energy awareness and Deep Transcendence
On Mar 31, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Buck wrote: One of the Bobby Roth TM questioners last week that I thought was most interesting was the young woman MUM student from New Mexico asking about more guidance with chakra energy work and hoping for services at MUM with this for people who would need help with that, besides meditating. It obviously was out of Bobby's realm as he mostly let it slide by without touching it. On the Ayurveda training course with Chopra in FF it was told that Mahesh had tried to buy out the families that preserved the traditions of Kalarippayattu, which contained all the secrets of the marmas and the nadis in an oral tradition, the written versions of which made no sense unless you'd received actual practical instruction. The families who held the teaching could not be bought, at any price. And thus the teachings were never given to the movement. Their main person, John Douiliard, found a master who taught the science and moved on. To this day that guru comes back to FF to help rescue the many damaged by the siddhis, pranic disease and unguided practice.
