Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 16, 2011, at 4:30 AM, cardemaister wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 15, 2011, at 4:54 PM, sparaig wrote: Certainly that is the case, that the TM researchers thought (and still do) that these episodes are significant. I'm curious as to why you think they are not? Because there's been nothing demonstrated as outside the normal realm of waking-dreaming-sleeping for one. But the primary source is yogic literature itself, which defines the different types of breath suspensions in considerable detail. The Hindu science of breath is quite detailed. Hmm...at least Bhojadeva in his commentary on YS, seems to define the fourth praaNaayaama simply as 'stambha-ruupo gati- vicchedaH': tau dvau viShayAvAkShipya paryAlochya yaH stambharUpI (?typo; I think it should be 'stambharUpo') gativichChedaH sa chaturthaH prANAyAmaH The fourth pranayama, as explained numerous times before, is in no way related to TM-based apneas. It's defined and experienced quite differently. The fourth pranayama is alluded to in the tales of a number of sages and deities whereby they suffocate the world through their practice, the beings thereby being forced to seek refuge in god. Once perfected, days, months or years, the yogin decides. It's completely under the will.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 15, 2011, at 11:27 PM, sparaig wrote: These days, scientists call it the default mode of the brain. Which scientists are these? Lemme guess, from MUM?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 14, 2011, at 9:46 PM, sparaig wrote: However, what I meant by there's alpha and then there's alpha is a reference to the specific pattern(s) that show up during TM, especially during the pure consciousness state. Alleged pure consciousness state. I don't believe anyone accepts that metaphysical speculation except TM folks - esp. since we now have a much clearer idea of what the EEG of samadhi looks like and what it's physiological results are at the cellular level. Sadly, it has not been seen in TM so far.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 14, 2011, at 9:48 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 4:06 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: [...] Thank you also Turq (Lawson) for your warm welcome too. There is much I still have to learn about TM, but also about the members here.� Still it has been heuristically useful for me to say the least!� � Um I note that you not only confused me with someone else but you never bothered to respond to my links to research on stuff... Gotta wonder. I believe he is deeply familiar with meditation research in general. Those aren't meditation research in general studies. Those are studies on a specific state found within TM and apparently not elsewhere. At least, I can't find any reference to breath suspension [or synonyms] and meditation except the TM research. It turned out to be insignificant, except of course to TM researchers who want to believe the apnea episodes are significant.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
L., no wonder I never saw it. I did not read any posts in this thread. Normally I don't read other threads here unless they pertain directly to meditation. I don't read the political ones, nor a variety of other threads. The e-mail you sent, and its relevancy, I think falls upon how you want to define TM. In your e-mail you are pressing the points based only on the meditative technique and the state of consciousness that it produces. Nevertheless, when viewed through the prism of religious scholarship, I think any scholar would see the TM organization is being profoundly steeped in Hinduism. There are so many points of contact between the TM organization and normative Hindu beliefs that I don't think anyone can really question that. Personally, I have always viewed Maharishi as being a perfectly orthodox Hindu, at least within his own Advaita tradition. By the way, my old TM teacher has told me that he thought that one day there would be a bifurcation of the organization. There would be a Western branch and an Indian branch. The Western branch would emphasize exactly the points that you have brought up here and no doubt divest itself of some of the more overt mystical and Hindu elements. The Indian branch, would of course, cloak itself in the garb of Hinduism, which is entirely appropriate. Anyway, I am sorry I missed this, but I didn't read any posts in this particular thread. Was this the particular link you were pointing out in your other post to me? Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 6:59 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: L., forgive me, but I went though my old posts, which had several from you and none had any links for further research. Did I miss one of them? Cheers Bill Re: The Soul is extracted and judged by weight An email I fired off recently might be of interest to you: Dear Professor Brown, I just finished reading your article, Doubt as Methodology and Object in the Phenomenology of Religion, found in M/C Journal http://www.journal.media-culture.org.au/index.php/mcjournal/article/viewArticle/\ 334 ... I'd like to present the TM theoretical take of the Vedic philosophy and ask that you reconsider calling TM a religion, per se: Rather than theories or beliefs about God, the Universe and Everything that are strictly the product of the specific culture that they are found in, TM theory asserts that these are cultural interpretations of states of consciousness that are natural to humans, regardless of culture. TM theory further asserts that TM is a technique (in the same sense that the Way that cannot be spoken is a technique) that increases the probability that practitioners will enter into the state of consciousness called turya -pure consciousness- in the Upanishads. The theory further asserts that long-term practice of TM, alternated with normal activity, leads to the situation called turyatita (quality of turya) where turya is omni-present, in some sense, in the individual. This theory is nothing new. You can find it, with minor variations, in various places. E.G. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya What IS unique to TM theory, however, are the assertions that: 1) turya is a physiological state of the brain in the Western scientific sense, that can be measured using the tools of Western science; 2) that turyatita is likewise a measurable state; 3) that turya is the state of least stress in a resting nervous system; 4) the process of TM is merely a resting state of the nervous system that repairs stress (note that obvious episodes of turya are NOT required for this resting state to be effective --one can become fully enlightened according to TM theory, without ever having a clear experience of turya during meditation, at least prior to full enlightenment); 4) turyatita is merely a state in mature adults whose nervous systems are sufficiently strong and mature due to lack of physiological stress that turya is evident, even during waking, dreaming and sleeping. this leads to the logical conclusion that turyatita is NOT some esoteric state, and that the physiological signature of turya during meditation should more likely appear, not only in long-term practitioners of TM contrasted with non-meditating or short-term meditating controls, but also in non-meditators whose success in life suggests that their nervous systems are very efficient, e.g.: world champion athletes (as compared to non-champion professionals in the same sport), professional classical musicians (as compared to amateur classical musicians) and high-functioning business managers as compared to their less successful counterparts. Research on the physiological correlates of turya found during TM practice: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7045911 Breath suspension during the transcendental meditation
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much Ravi!! You have a very interesting story. And I can now see your inability to sleep for those periods is something quite different than what might happen in TM. If I understand you correctly, it seems as if you had too much energy. And later you crashed. It has some associative points of contact with manic-depressive states. I am just knowledgeable enough to know that kundalini-style yoga seems to emphasize moving energy around the various chakras. The problem in TM seems to be that the recognition within oneself of this silent innerlayer never leaves even during sleep. Your state was high energy, the TM state during sleep might be compared to a dimly lit candle-- but one nevertheless never goes out even during sleep. I am go thankful that you nshard this with me. I have a great awareness now of what happened to you and maybe it is also a cautionary tale against using this type of yoga in some cases. Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviy...@att.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 10:27 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Unlike Ravi, Jim, and perhaps Robin, I really find the whole notion of not sleeping very troubling. Bill, I have to clarify that I mostly sleep like a log now, I did mention that I didn't sleep much for a few months during my Kundalini descension and explained that I believe now that it was an unnatural state since my body had decided it was under threat and probably never triggered the right chemicals that would let me fall asleep. In any event I want to make this my last post on the subject, given that it has developed into some side issues that I never meant to dig up. No worries - welcome to FFL, threads veer off in all different directions and several are hijacked for personal battles. Pretty soon you will be familiar with the opposing players and if need be either indulge or learn techniques to steer clear. Thx so much Barry. I took your admonishment seriously and I felt, and do still feel, it was heartfelt. And yes you are right. I have taken them at their word, even though I know this is such a subjective thing. Nevertheless, even if they only got close to so-called 'Enlightenment' it is very interesting to talk to them and see what state of mind they were in and what effect it had on their personal lives. I have to clarify that I have never used the E word, I only share my experiencesin the hope it might help or inspire someone.In fact I frequently sometimes I think there's something wrong with me, my personal situation is messed up, there's lot of strife,struggle in the world, the problems require someone mature and responsible but yet here I am I feel blissed out for no reason and act in a silly playful manner like a child. Ravi, I would still be very interested in hearing what you have to say concerning how, and in what way, these types of intense periods of illumination has helped you. I would have to first briefly describe these intense periods of illumination. Over a period of 7 years I went through a several stages which I would refer to as Kundalini ascension, each experience lasted a week or 2 where as the energy ascended to my head I noticed heightened sensitivity, intense emotions and toward the end, intense derealization depersonalization ending in a powerful surge of energy that would leave me in an absolute dread and then boom it would be gone and I would sleep exhausted. The end phase almost happened in the night time with heightened senses as if on guard against an attack. I would return to normal consciousness the next day. I have to add a quick disclaimer here that I have never tried any psychedelic drugs or never been on any prescription medication ever. However the period above was followed by intense personal problems with my marriage, wanting to feel love and be loved, being in a emotionally abusive relationship. I had a final intense one in 2009, however unlike the previous ones when I got up the next morning I was in intense bliss, as if intense blissful energy had entered in to me. This episode lasted 3 weeks and was one of the 2 episodes of Kundalini descension, the other one in April-May last year which everyone here is aware of because of my erratic behavior.The first in 2009 for 3 weeks and second for 6 weeks. Unlike the previous experiences which were very uncomfortable, this was pure bliss which increased in intensity, I felt as if energy was descending in droves, as each day progressed and at the end I went through a stage of psychosis which helped my body, mind, ego to make the transition. The state of psychosis was only a few hours during the first whereas in the second it was much intense and over a period of 5 days. After I hit the peak, the psychosis enabled me to survive, and it took me up
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 15, 2011, at 4:53 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 9:46 PM, sparaig wrote: However, what I meant by there's alpha and then there's alpha is a reference to the specific pattern(s) that show up during TM, especially during the pure consciousness state. Alleged pure consciousness state. I don't believe anyone accepts that metaphysical speculation except TM folks - esp. since we now have a much clearer idea of what the EEG of samadhi looks like and what it's physiological results are at the cellular level. Sadly, it has not been seen in TM so far. That assumes that what you are referring to is the real deal while what I am referring to is not. Well these were lineal realizers from the Patanjali tradition. I guess you'd have to decide what you'd consider a fourth state. They considered it samadhi. I'm simply stating that EEG signatures well known to be associated with waking, sleeping and dreaming would not traditionally, experientially, be considered the fourth. What is fun about *my* real deal pure consciousness state is that it is found in self-actualizing non-meditators. Is yours? Generally NOT. And in the Vedantic trip that's why it was called the fourth (turIya). It's something beyond the ordinary states, other than briefly in various peak experiences.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 15, 2011, at 4:54 PM, sparaig wrote: Certainly that is the case, that the TM researchers thought (and still do) that these episodes are significant. I'm curious as to why you think they are not? Because there's been nothing demonstrated as outside the normal realm of waking-dreaming-sleeping for one. But the primary source is yogic literature itself, which defines the different types of breath suspensions in considerable detail. The Hindu science of breath is quite detailed.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I do remember it, but not the full gist now. You will have to forgive me. Can you 'enlighten' me about it (pun intended). Cheers Bill From: whynotnow7 whynotn...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 5:51 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Hi Bill, Your user name reminds me of the word amerindian. I am curious if you saw my comment earlier pertaining to coddling your bliss and what your thoughts are about that please? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: L., no wonder I never saw it. I did not read any posts in this thread. Normally I don't read other threads here unless they pertain directly to meditation. snip
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 14, 2011, at 12:20 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: [...] The much-touted witnessing of advanced TMers is seen in normal humans all the time, but esp. in the elderly and people in pain. Big whoop. Derealization during pain isn't the same as witnessing during the waking state, and the finding that world champion athletes compared to non-world champion athletes show more of the same kind of EEG signature as long-term TMers do compared to short-term TM meditators, certainly suggests that there's something more going on... I was referring to witnessing during sleep. The signature TMers tout, is actually rather common. Listening to William, I have to wonder if it's actually a variety of alpha intrusion?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 13, 2011, at 9:20 PM, William Parkinson wrote: Thank you so much for the information Bhairitu . I tried to trace back my own mantra within the Advaita-shakti tradition and found that it was recorded in Shankara's 'Saundaryalahari.' Perhaps I am just slow witted, but I don't believe in Ishta-devatas or any of these deities. For me it is sort of like if an Italian person came to me and gave me an ancient religious tradition that was based on a belief in Hermes or Zeus or Neptune. These are just personifications of natural forces and experiences. Still, TM does work! I have my own secular explanation as to what I think makes it work, but of course maybe Kali, Lakshmi and the other goddesses of the Divine mother tradition are real! Nevertheless, I find it fascinating to trace the roots of this religious tradition. I hope you will add any further information you can on the tradition. There is so much I really do not understand about it or even about the growth of the tradition after Shankara. Perhaps others can shed further light upon the tradition that underlies TM. At this point, having heard too many testimonials concerning disrupted sleep patterns (even when they are seen as being helpful) I think I'm going to cut back my TM to 10 minutes each session and add 10 minutes of pranayama prior to doing the TM. Maybe in that fashion I can still get some of the benefits from the practice, but not develop full-blown CC, which would surface during my sleeping hours. Anyway thank you so much!! Bill you do realize that saundaryalahari is attributed to Shankara, but is very likely not by him? It's more in the style of an agama or a tantra rather than any of the classical works of Adi Shankara. The key point is, the TM bijas are part and parcel of the tantric mantra tradition. The TM mantras appear repeatedly in numerous different tantras. Tantric mantra dictionaries contain all of the TM mantras (and many, many more), along with their detailed meanings.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
. Apparently these people who do the TM over long periods developed that silent inner layer until it even exists into deeper sleep. That just sounds very unpleasant to me. I wish I could turn it on and off like a light bulb. Turn on so-called cosmic consciousness during my waking hours and then just turn it off when it's time for sleep. Thank you also Bhairitu for sharing your knowledge on the history of these mantras. As I mentioned above, this part of TM is all new to me and I am soaking it up like a sponge. I hope you will continue to share what you know. Others here know all of these things, whereas I do not. So I appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge with me. Sorry for the disappointment Seventhray. But TM does seem to work faster; that is to say, it's more efficient when it comes to 'transcending.' It is really just an observation concerning timeframes. But, and this is big 'but', whether or not TM actually produces real 'Enlightenment' is something I can't really speculate about. I have never gotten to that point (and I don't want to). I also never developed that second interlayer that is palpable, what the TM people call cosmic consciousness (see my comments above to Vaj). I was able to transcend in my hybrid pranayama-vipanassana style of meditation, but it was never as easy or as fast. I am no apologist for all of the bizarre behavior and strange beliefs (in my view that is) that prevail in the TM organization, but this simple mantra meditation does seem to be effective. I think it would be nearly impossible to build a multibillion dollar entity, not to mention charge people fairly steep sums of money to learn the technique, unless the meditation actually worked. I want to thank Rory, Xeno, Jim and Ravi, for sharing details of your experiences with me. These experiences have been very helpful. Ravi, I would still be very interested in hearing what you have to say concerning how, and in what way, these types of intense periods of illumination has helped you. Thank you Bob for your warm welcome! And you deserve special mention for your very perceptive observation of my e-mail address! Yes, it goes back to when I was still in Canada. After being there a while some friends there said I was starting to become Canadian. I laughed and said I was actually half and half--hence the name ameradian! That became my email. It is so rare for someone to put that together. You are very observant! And thank you also for your really quite gracious comments. Being a part of this forum has been of great help. I want to continue to learn from the knowledge and the experiences of others here. Thank you also Turq (Lawson) for your warm welcome too. There is much I still have to learn about TM, but also about the members here. Still it has been heuristically useful for me to say the least! If I have left anyone out I deeply apologize. So many have chimed in and been very helpful to this newbie. Now it is time to discuss other topics!!! Cheers Bill From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 9:14 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) What Bob said, Bill. Welcome, but watch your back. One thing I should suggest to you -- both on Fairfield Life and in real life -- is to not believe that someone is enlightened just because they claim to be. Going that route is likely to cost you money and heartbreak. For example, on this forum we currently have three people who you seem to have bought into as being enlightened -- Jim Flanegin (whynotnow), Ravi, and Robin (maskedzebra). My bet is that other than each other (they tend to support each others' delusions IMO), you can't find more than a handful of people on this forum who actually BELIEVE that any of them are enlightened. It's not that we think they're lying (except for Ravi, who has admitted several times that he was lying to Rick in the interview he did with him for BATGAP); we think they are a tad delusional. Those of us who think this base it on their real-life behavior on this forum, juxtaposed to their claims of supposed higher states of consciousness. It's the walk the walk vs. the talk the talk thang. Look into it for yourself, and make your own decisions. I would suggest, for all three, using the Yahoo website's Advanced Search engine and looking up some of their earliest posts on this forum. That's where all three of them tended to freak out and display the anger and reactive behavior that convinces us disbelievers that they are delusional rather than enlightened. For the poster who now calls himself whynotnow, you should also look up his posts under several other names, for example, jim_flanegin and enlightened_dawn11 (during the period that Jim was pretending to be female). Just sayin'. I am NOT saying that there might not be truly enlightened people out there. I am NOT saying that there might
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Richard I love what you just wrote. This is all new to me. I am now rushing to Goggle!! I will say something soon. Thx!! Cheers Bill From: richardjwilliamstexas willy...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 11:51 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) William Parkinson: I tried to trace back my own mantra within the Advaita-shakti tradition and found that it was recorded in Shankara's 'Saundaryalahari.' According to the Shankaracharya of Sringeri, the Adi Shankara placed the Sri Chakra, symbol of Tripurasundari, with the TM mantras inscribed thereon, at each of the seats of learning - Dwarka, Puri, Sringeri, and at Jyotirmath. The mantras of TM are DIRECTLY related to Sri Vidya. It is also a fact that the cult of Sri Vidya was derived from the nath siddhas, tantric alchemists of medieval India, 99% of whom were Vajrayana Buddhists in the line of Nagarjuna! Read more: Sri Vidya: http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/srividya.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On 07/13/2011 09:14 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: On 07/13/2011 12:17 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: [...] You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. The most consistent EEG changes during TM they have found are in the Alpha band in certain parts of the brain, especially during episodes of pure consciousness. There's no justifiable reason to push anything else. L. Sure, because TM is only yoga lite. :-D Just simple breathing exercises can produce alpha states. WEll, yes. Simply closing the eyes can produce alpha states. There's alpha states and then there's alpha states. L. Really? How so? You mean there is wiggle room? :-D Why not just be honest and say that TM like other methods can produce alpha states? Hang the marketing on other factors such as price. Obviously if you're paying such a high price you MUST be getting a superior technique. :-D
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 14, 2011, at 4:06 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: [...] Thank you also Turq (Lawson) for your warm welcome too. There is much I still have to learn about TM, but also about the members here. Still it has been heuristically useful for me to say the least!  Um I note that you not only confused me with someone else but you never bothered to respond to my links to research on stuff... Gotta wonder. I believe he is deeply familiar with meditation research in general.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I am so sorry L. As I mentioned at the beginning, I might get people confused. I think I still have what you wrote to me and I will look at those links today, when I get back home. Thanks again!! Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:06 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: [...] Thank you also Turq (Lawson) for your warm welcome too. There is much I still have to learn about TM, but also about the members here. Still it has been heuristically useful for me to say the least!  Um I note that you not only confused me with someone else but you never bothered to respond to my links to research on stuff... Gotta wonder. L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
L., forgive me, but I went though my old posts, which had several from you and none had any links for further research. Did I miss one of them? Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:06 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: [...] Thank you also Turq (Lawson) for your warm welcome too. There is much I still have to learn about TM, but also about the members here. Still it has been heuristically useful for me to say the least!  Um I note that you not only confused me with someone else but you never bothered to respond to my links to research on stuff... Gotta wonder. L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the warm welcome. Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness? I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?) engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill From: RoryGoff roryg...@hotmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:10 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill * * Dear Bill, welcome to Fairfield Life! Great questions; I'll take a shot at them. In my recollection, anyhow, witnessing sleep before Awakening was somewhat transitory. Since then however, it has generally felt as if a part of me is always asleep (if I had to locate this part, it would be in the back of my brain) and a part of me is always awake (this would be more in the brow area), so there really appears to be only one state of consciousness, or more accurately, one consciousness always and ever Here and Now which predominates through all its various states, so that the brain as a whole sings, regardless of where I happen to be localized in the brain's choir. Conscious mantra-meditation ceased immediately upon Awakening, as it was self-evident that I was not, and That Alone IS, and there was no longer anywhere to go, and that was 29 years ago. I have no regrets and no desire to change, but then this is certainly not Cosmic Consciousness as classically described, or not C.C. alone; it is indescribable, more like everything and nothing, more like utter ignorance with utter contentment :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7. Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. And I also worry about what I just read concerning what seems to be long-lasting, if not permanent changes to either neurophysiology or even neuroanatomy. Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. That was a very perceptive comment!! Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviy...@att.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:55 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Dear Bill, Not being familiar with TM, I can just share my experiences. In my experience not being aware during deep sleep state doesn't seem to hinder bliss and perfect awareness during the wakeful state. Most of the times I sleep like a log, if I'm too high I might feel like I'm aware of my sleep state but this happens rarely. However during a period of 3 months in 09 10, during this period that I refer to as the descension of divine I hardly slept and had full awareness even while asleep. But I believe this to be a side effect of the body trying to cope with energy than any natural state. My body treated this energy as an invasion and felt the need to be awake 24 hours a day to deal with this. So based on my experience it was just an interim state, after having integrated the energy and rising up higher in consciousness, so to speak I just sleep. TM is a path like many others, like my Guru would say once you reach the shore you leave the boat behind, you wouldn't carry it on your head. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much for telling me about this. Is this what MMY claimed about his own sense of mission? I have read the 'Beacon Light of the Himalayas' (from Paul Mason's site) and I thought that his sole purpose was simply because he had a meditation suitable for so-called 'householders.' So his real purpose was to raise the entire world consciousness, which in turn would allow others to become fully enlightened? Did I understand you correctly? If that is true that is a remarkable insight into his mission (or at least what he may have claimed for his mission). This is what I love about FFL. I get to learn so many interesting details and tidbits from all of you who have been in the movement years ago, and know far more than I do. Thank you for telling me about this!!! Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:11 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Yo, William, don't take them too seriously. According to MMY, if you can't perform any and all of the sidhis (e.g. Yogic Flying) then you're not truly in Unity Consciousness. Now, for those who like to play semantic games with the above, I'll take it back a step: if, immediately prior to Full Liberation, you don't find yourself able to perform all the Sidhis to perfection during sutra practice during your participation in the TM/TM-SIdhis program, then you are probably not fully enlightened, no matter what your perceptions suggest. MMY himself once hinted that that was one of the reasons why he realized the world wasn't quite how it should be when he was off on his own, meditating after his guru dev died: he wasn't doing/experiencing some of the stuff that was predicted for someone in his apparent state of consciousness and finally concluded that the current state of the world's consciousness wouldn't support full enlightenment, and eventually set out to remedy the situation. L. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the  warm welcome.  Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness?  I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?)  engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill From: RoryGoff rorygoff@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:10 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Hello to everyone on Fairfield life. My name is Dr. William Parkinson and I have been lurking here for over a month. I have only recently started meditating ( 5months) and I am trying to learn as much about TM as I can; both the good and the bad. Recently, MZ\RobinC and Ravi Yogi have made some brief, but tantalizing allusions, to sleep (actually the lack thereof) and various states of consciousness. Years ago I read the paper in the journal Sleep documenting that people in established CC still maintain alpha wave paterns even during delta sleep. I was wondering if anyone could shed further light on this phenomenon. I understand that this is not the same as insomnia, but I'm wondering exactly what happens and whether or not it interferes with sleep. I am also wondering whether or not so-called cosmic consciousness would recede back into the background if someone were to discontinue TM. I ask this because in the eventuality that I, or someone else, may be disconcerted by having this state of consciousness during sleep it would be quite helpful to know that the discontinuation of TM would reverse this phenomenon. I would be deeply appreciative of any information that anyone might be willing to give me. Thank you in advance! Cheers Bill * * Dear Bill, welcome to Fairfield Life! Great questions; I'll take a shot at them. In my
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
I must admit to being very pleased Rory-- you're the first person on this forum that I have encountered who seems to be happy that they've reached a certain level of 'higher consciousness.' To hear RC tell of his own experience, it did not seem like a very pleasant or helpful state of mind at all! I read about the helicopter incident in the book 'The Maharishi Effect and it seemed to me that this behavior might have been indicative of a highly unstable state of mind (no offense RC if you are still reading these posts; please do not take it as any indication of a judgment on you as you are now). You're the first one so far who seems to be contented with having reached a higher state of consciousness. Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to inform me of your own experiences. It has proven to be invaluable to me and very rewarding-- even if I'm not sure I fully grasp in its entirety what happened to you during these periods of intense illumination (perhaps that is a better wording than Enlightenment). Cheers Bill From: RoryGoff roryg...@hotmail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:18 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the  warm welcome.  Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! * * I wouldn't characterize this IS-ness as classic UC either, as when UC dawned for me, anyhow, there was still an essentially-separate I who was enjoying Unity or a tunnel-self with various objects of perception, but who still essentially regarded itself as separate and subject to spacetime and growth and experience coming from somewhere outside itself. Now, however, we contain a great many Is, all of whom are in different states of consciousness, depending on the quality of our relationship with them. An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness? * * Every one is different, but I don't see why not :-)  I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. * * That certainly was the case for me, but the great joke is, the path is actually pathless, from Here to Here, as MMY puts it, which I would gloss as being from a relative non-appreciation of Here and Now to a total whole-hearted appreciation of Here and Now. So whatever it takes to erase the intellect's superimpositions of not-Here and not-Now we are placing upon THAT-Us Here and Now, well, that is what happens :-) I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?)  engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? * * Yes. I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill * * For me, anyhow, this is IT, Home, my Beloved, what I had been searching for forever, and so I am supremely satisfied with its questionable utility :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On 07/13/2011 11:12 AM, William Parkinson wrote: Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. That's because it's a beej mantra which are generally used to enrich longer mantras. They're short and create a quick dip. Longer mantras create a more sustained effect. Maharishi wanted people to get the advanced technique as early as a year and a half after the first. It resembles a guru mantra for the tradition. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7. Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. Witnessing in sleep is not uncommon when one practices advanced meditations. But you'll also find plenty of yogis who will tell you they are dead to the world during sleep and happy for it. I taught TM briefly in the late 70s. About 11 years ago I learned tantra from an authentic Indian tantric yogi who resides in the US. TM for me was a dead end because we were never taught things like mantra shastra or how to use different mantras. We were nothing more than parrots for the technique. With the tantric I learned things like mantra shastra. And I also worry about what I just read concerning what seems to be long-lasting, if not permanent changes to either neurophysiology or even neuroanatomy. Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. That was a very perceptive comment!! Cheers Bill
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On 07/13/2011 12:17 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: [...] You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. The most consistent EEG changes during TM they have found are in the Alpha band in certain parts of the brain, especially during episodes of pure consciousness. There's no justifiable reason to push anything else. L. Sure, because TM is only yoga lite. :-D Just simple breathing exercises can produce alpha states.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 13, 2011, at 3:56 PM, Bhairitu wrote: On 07/13/2011 12:17 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: [...] You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. The most consistent EEG changes during TM they have found are in the Alpha band in certain parts of the brain, especially during episodes of pure consciousness. There's no justifiable reason to push anything else. L. Sure, because TM is only yoga lite. :-D Just simple breathing exercises can produce alpha states. The much-touted witnessing of advanced TMers is seen in normal humans all the time, but esp. in the elderly and people in pain. Big whoop. As the Cambridge Handbook of Consciousness put it Other relaxation techniques have led to the same EEG profile, and studies that employed counter-balanced control relaxation conditions consistently found a lack of alpha power increases or even decreases when comparing relaxation or hypnosis to TM meditation. I hope those folks who are so wowed about TM remember to take an Ativan before they ever venture into Disneyworld or a Benihana steak house.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thx so much XA. What you describe is the one thing I fear the most. I have had insomnia for my entire adult life and when I went to a sleep lab way back in 1982 (at U.C.Irvine in California) I was told I had alpha intrusion.' Obviously I was having trouble getting out of the restful state of alpha and into the drowsy theta state and then into the sleeping delta. So, when the article in Sleep showed that these TM meditators where producing alpha waves, while concomitantly showing delta waves, that turned me off. I quit doing TM long ago because of it. That was 11 years ago. But around 5 months ago now I started TM again and it was not too long, perhaps 10 weeks later, I could tell that CC was starting to develop. That silent inner layer, which was there all the time when I was not too mentally active (so, watching TV I could 'feel' it), was growing and I worry about the effects on sleep. Your story is, for me, a real cautionary tale to be sure. I am deeply grateful to you for sharing it with me. I guess the only good thing to take way for all of this was that the CC experience did go away in time. If I may ask one question XA: How much were you meditating? Were you going far beyond the typical twice-per-day, 20 minute program? Were you using advanced techniques? Were you going to all those residence courses to undergo 'rounding'? Clint Eastwood has been meditating for 40 years and I assume he is doing TM 'lite,' as I am. He seems none the worse for wear, so to speak. Cheers Bill From: Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 1:45 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) With regards to William Parkinson, Ravi Yogi, and Lawson --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7. Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. And I also worry about what I just read concerning what seems to be long-lasting, if not permanent changes to either neurophysiology or even neuroanatomy. Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. That was a very perceptive comment!! Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviyogi@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:55 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Dear Bill, Not being familiar with TM, I can just share my experiences. In my experience not being aware during deep sleep state doesn't seem to hinder bliss and perfect awareness during the wakeful state. Most of the times I sleep like a log, if I'm too high I might feel like I'm aware of my sleep state but this happens rarely. However during a period of 3 months in 09 10, during this period that I refer to as the descension of divine I hardly slept and had full awareness even while asleep. But I believe this to be a side effect of the body trying to cope with energy than any natural state. My body treated this energy as an invasion and felt the need to be awake 24 hours a day to deal with this. So based on my experience it was just an interim state, after having integrated the energy and rising up higher in consciousness, so to speak I just sleep. TM is a path like many others, like my Guru would say once you reach the shore you leave the boat behind, you wouldn't carry it on your head. For me the further shore occasionally seems closer than at other times, but invariably a cleansing flood washes the boat back down stream, and the further shore seems at least as far away as ever, if not more. IOW, I haven't found an opportunity to carry the boat around on my head for any appreciable length of time, at least. To paraphrase MMY: as long as you have thoughts during meditation, you can still benefit from meditation... L. I do not think it has ever been determined that the sign posts or benchmarks
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Vaj, as I understand it, the TM people don't make hay from the mere presence of alpha waves, but rather from alpha coherence, which is wide spread over the various lobes. Is that not correct? Am I missing something here? Someone correct me if I am wrong. Cheers Bill From: Vaj vajradh...@earthlink.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) On Jul 13, 2011, at 3:56 PM, Bhairitu wrote: On 07/13/2011 12:17 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: [...] You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. The most consistent EEG changes during TM they have found are in the Alpha band in certain parts of the brain, especially during episodes of pure consciousness. There's no justifiable reason to push anything else. L. Sure, because TM is only yoga lite. :-D Just simple breathing exercises can produce alpha states. The much-touted witnessing of advanced TMers is seen in normal humans all the time, but esp. in the elderly and people in pain. Big whoop. As the Cambridge Handbook of Consciousness put it Other relaxation techniques have led to the same EEG profile, and studies thatemployed counter-balanced control relaxation conditions consistently found a lack of alpha power increases or even decreases when comparing relaxation or hypnosis to TM meditation. I hope those folks who are so wowed about TM remember to take an Ativan before they ever venture into Disneyworld or a Benihana steak house.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
On Jul 13, 2011, at 5:16 PM, William Parkinson wrote: Vaj, as I understand it, the TM people don't make hay from the mere presence of alpha waves, but rather from alpha coherence, which is wide spread over the various lobes. Is that not correct? Am I missing something here? Someone correct me if I am wrong. Yes, you're right. I remember being wowed by that alpha coherence. Gawd, it sounded great to me. My brain was becoming more laser-like with each meditation. I'd be mind-melding in no time. Of course, it was years later till I found out that the level of alpha coherence found in TMers wasn't any different from Joe or Jane Doe tamasic non-meditator. In fact, I was surprised to find there wasn't any unique fourth state EEG signature at all. It was all regular waking-dreaming-sleeping EEG patterns. WTF? Then we began to see a unique fourth state of EEG in advanced, long-term meditators. Strangely both Patanjali yogins and Buddhist yogins had the same EEG signature! WTF?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much Ravi for allowing me a peek into your experiences. When I say 'questionable utility' what I mean is this. In the Eastern tradition, as I understand it, the goal of Enlightenment is to free one from karmic bondage; that is to say, to end the endless cycle of birth, death, and rebirth (the 'transmigration of the soul'). Enlightenment is always viewed as something that dispels ignorance. And what is this ignorance? Far more often than not it is the idea that dualism is illusory. But what if there is no such thing as reincarnation (as I believe)? What good does the Enlightenment do then? And what if the phenomenological approach to religion is the worst possible way to proceed to truth? I should really take the time to write of a compelling example of this error in religion using the example if the Mormon faith. In the light of evidence from mitochondrial DNA we can now say that Joseph Smith, and everything he taught, was completely false (there were other lines of compelling evidence that converge on the same conclusion). And yet Mormons, because of a phenomenon called the 'burning bosom,' nevertheless, believe wholeheartedly that it is still true. When I get the time I think I will write a post on this. Hopefully it will be edifying to everyone on the forum. In any event, I'm not sure I see how it is useful to become enlightened, unless it makes a person a better human being; viz. becoming a more loving person. Of course, this is only my personal belief. I would be fascinated to hear anything you can tell me about what value this period in your life has had for you. I am always endlessly fascinated by the religious convictions and scruples of people no matter what the religious tradition. You are one of the few people I have ever encountered who can say that they entered into a state of consciousness that was at least close to, if not entirely synonymous with, the classical definition of enlightenment. It would be a welcome exercise to me personally if you could tell me just a little bit about why you feel it was salutary for you. In any event, I thank you deeply Ravi for sharing your experiences with me. I hope to hear more from you soon! Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviy...@att.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:00 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Did you and Ravi (are you there?) engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? No like I said I didn't engage in any advanced practices. IME the result does not seem to be proportional to the effort and like ancient scriptures point out the other factors seems to be grace, the existing attachments and one's innate tendencies. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility I can vouch for long term brain changes, I would definitely disagree with the questionable utility part. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the  warm welcome.  Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness?  I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?)  engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility Cheers Bill
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Dr. Parkinson, Welcome to FFL. I've been enjoying your exchanges with our fellow posters immensely. Lately, I've been trying to communicate in moving images but I'm afraid I'll never match the lyrical magic or sattva of our talented Yifu. While reading one of your posts I found myself reaching for my Webster's and remembered the last time I reached out like that. I was wondering if you've recently been to Canada or Africa? From: William Parkinson ameradi...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:22:34 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Thank you so much Ravi for allowing me a peek into your experiences. When I say 'questionable utility' what I mean is this. In the Eastern tradition, as I understand it, the goal of Enlightenment is to free one from karmic bondage; that is to say, to end the endless cycle of birth, death, and rebirth (the 'transmigration of the soul'). Enlightenment is always viewed as something that dispels ignorance. And what is this ignorance? Far more often than not it is the idea that dualism is illusory. But what if there is no such thing as reincarnation (as I believe)? What good does the Enlightenment do then? And what if the phenomenological approach to religion is the worst possible way to proceed to truth? I should really take the time to write of a compelling example of this error in religion using the example if the Mormon faith. In the light of evidence from mitochondrial DNA we can now say that Joseph Smith, and everything he taught, was completely false (there were other lines of compelling evidence that converge on the same conclusion). And yet Mormons, because of a phenomenon called the 'burning bosom,' nevertheless, believe wholeheartedly that it is still true. When I get the time I think I will write a post on this. Hopefully it will be edifying to everyone on the forum. In any event, I'm not sure I see how it is useful to become enlightened, unless it makes a person a better human being; viz. becoming a more loving person. Of course, this is only my personal belief. I would be fascinated to hear anything you can tell me about what value this period in your life has had for you. I am always endlessly fascinated by the religious convictions and scruples of people no matter what the religious tradition. You are one of the few people I have ever encountered who can say that they entered into a state of consciousness that was at least close to, if not entirely synonymous with, the classical definition of enlightenment. It would be a welcome exercise to me personally if you could tell me just a little bit about why you feel it was salutary for you. In any event, I thank you deeply Ravi for sharing your experiences with me. I hope to hear more from you soon! Cheers Bill From: Ravi Yogi raviy...@att.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:00 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Did you and Ravi (are you there?) engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? No like I said I didn't engage in any advanced practices. IME the result does not seem to be proportional to the effort and like ancient scriptures point out the other factors seems to be grace, the existing attachments and one's innate tendencies. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because it develops long-term brain changes of questionable utility I can vouch for long term brain changes, I would definitely disagree with the questionable utility part. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly! I deeply appreciate the  warm welcome.  Honestly, however, you have truly baffled me, because your own experience goes far beyond so-called cosmic consciousness. Up until now I thought the only two people that had reached what TM jargon calls UC was Robin C. and Ravi. And now it seems you reached at too! An interesting question as a follow-up might be this: if a person simply follows the 20 minutes-twice a day formulation, will they ever go beyond simple cosmic consciousness?  I wonder if those of you who have reached GC and UC did so because of advanced meditation techniques, many hours of so-called 'rounding;' not to mention many more hours of meditation throughout the week. I think of Clint Eastwood who has been doing TM for four years. Seemingly he has done it in the simple 20 minute-twice a day fashion. Did you and Ravi (are you there?)  engage in this more dedicated practice of TM? I must also say that your post has caused me some degree of disquiet. Meditation, at least for the purposes of my goal, is something that is done because it is helpful; not because
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Hello Bob and thank you for your kind words. I used to live in the Great White North. When I first started out to enter into a doctoral program I had two options open up to me. The first was at the University of Pennsylvania to study under Bob Kraft or to go to the University of Toronto to study under John Kloppenborg. Thankfully I was offered admission into both programs. I visited with both men and decided upon the University of Toronto. Bob Kraft was wonderful to me and he is a brilliant scholar, but the research that he wanted me to work on simply put me off. After meeting with John, and thinking that I would accept admission to the University of Toronto, I talked to another brilliant scholar in Canada by the name of Larry Hurtado. At that time he was at one of the worst universities in Canada-- the University of Manitoba. However, being American, I had no idea how bad it was. Anyway I drove from Toronto to Winnipeg and he spent 6 1/2 hours with me in his backyard, along with his wife, having a barbecue for me. He went so far out of his way and he was such a brilliant scholar that he convinced me to go to the University of Manitoba. Fortunately luck was going to smile upon the both of us. One day, about six months after being with Larry, he came to me and asked me to teach his classes for a few days. He never told me why or where he was going. Long story short, he had been interviewed at the University of Edinburgh in the UK (traditionally the third-best university there after Cambridge and Oxford so it was quite a feather in his cap) to be the chairman of the department. He did get the job there. So under the circumstanes both U. Penn and U.Toronto told me they would take me in if I did not want to go with him there. I did want to go, but back then the UK forced pet owners to quarantine their animals for six months upon entry into the UK. So, if I was to finish up my program with Larry over there I had to quickly find someone to accept my dogs. I got lucky again and found someone who would watch them. So I decided I would jump ship with him rather than to move over to the U. of Toronto or to U.Penn. Now I have to ask you: What made you think I had been in Canada or Africa? Now you had me curious! Cheers Bill From: Bob Price bobpri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Dr. Parkinson, Welcome to FFL. I've been enjoying your exchanges with our fellow posters immensely. Lately, I've been trying to communicate in moving images but I'm afraid I'll never match the lyrical magic or sattva of our talented Yifu. While reading one of your posts I found myself reaching for my Webster's and remembered the last time I reached out like that. I was wondering if you've recently been to Canada or Africa? From: William Parkinson ameradi...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:22:34 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Thank you so much Ravi for allowing me a peek into your experiences. When I say 'questionable utility' what I mean is this. In the Eastern tradition, as I understand it, the goal of Enlightenment is to free one from karmic bondage; that is to say, to end the endless cycle of birth, death, and rebirth (the 'transmigration of the soul'). Enlightenment is always viewed as something that dispels ignorance. And what is this ignorance? Far more often than not it is the idea that dualism is illusory. But what if there is no such thing as reincarnation (as I believe)? What good does the Enlightenment do then? And what if the phenomenological approach to religion is the worst possible way to proceed to truth? I should really take the time to write of a compelling example of this error in religion using the example if the Mormon faith. In the light of evidence from mitochondrial DNA we can now say that Joseph Smith, and everything he taught, was completely false (there were other lines of compelling evidence that converge on the same conclusion). And yet Mormons, because of a phenomenon called the 'burning bosom,' nevertheless, believe wholeheartedly that it is still true. When I get the time I think I will write a post on this. Hopefully it will be edifying to everyone on the forum. In any event, I'm not sure I see how it is useful to become enlightened, unless it makes a person a better human being; viz. becoming a more loving person. Of course, this is only my personal belief. I would be fascinated to hear anything you can tell me about what value this period in your life has had for you. I am always endlessly fascinated by the religious convictions and scruples of people no matter what the religious tradition. You are one of the few people I have ever encountered who can say
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Thank you so much for the information Bhairitu . I tried to trace back my own mantra within the Advaita-shakti tradition and found that it was recorded in Shankara's 'Saundaryalahari.' Perhaps I am just slow witted, but I don't believe in Ishta-devatas or any of these deities. For me it is sort of like if an Italian person came to me and gave me an ancient religious tradition that was based on a belief in Hermes or Zeus or Neptune. These are just personifications of natural forces and experiences. Still, TM does work! I have my own secular explanation as to what I think makes it work, but of course maybe Kali, Lakshmi and the other goddesses of the Divine mother tradition are real! Nevertheless, I find it fascinating to trace the roots of this religious tradition. I hope you will add any further information you can on the tradition. There is so much I really do not understand about it or even about the growth of the tradition after Shankara. Perhaps others can shed further light upon the tradition that underlies TM. At this point, having heard too many testimonials concerning disrupted sleep patterns (even when they are seen as being helpful) I think I'm going to cut back my TM to 10 minutes each session and add 10 minutes of pranayama prior to doing the TM. Maybe in that fashion I can still get some of the benefits from the practice, but not develop full-blown CC, which would surface during my sleeping hours. Anyway thank you so much!! Cheers Bill From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) On 07/13/2011 11:12 AM, William Parkinson wrote: Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. That's because it's a beej mantra which are generally used to enrich longer mantras. They're short and create a quick dip. Longer mantras create a more sustained effect. Maharishi wanted people to get the advanced technique as early as a year and a half after the first. It resembles a guru mantra for the tradition. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7. Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. Witnessing in sleep is not uncommon when one practices advanced meditations. But you'll also find plenty of yogis who will tell you they are dead to the world during sleep and happy for it. I taught TM briefly in the late 70s. About 11 years ago I learned tantra from an authentic Indian tantric yogi who resides in the US. TM for me was a dead end because we were never taught things like mantra shastra or how to use different mantras. We were nothing more than parrots for the technique. With the tantric I learned things like mantra shastra. And I also worry about what I just read concerning what seems to be long-lasting, if not permanent changes to either neurophysiology or even neuroanatomy. Btw, what form of meditation were you practicing? And also, I love the comment by your Guru. That was a very perceptive comment!! Cheers Bill
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
You're welcome. You can probably find the beej mantras in a lot of texts. No one knows their origin for sure. My guru things they just evolved from tested sounds. As for the deities they are considered to be a personification of forces of nature. The scientific references were over the heads of the people so the guru personified the elements so the public could grasp them in concept. You are probably familiar with the Indian stages of life and the deities that correspond to them. Similarly there are the Ayurvedic stages of life and there are mantras for each of those. ;-) Are you saying you are having sleep problems since learning TM? I know some people do, often because of a vata imbalance and sometime pitta, especially in summer. On 07/13/2011 06:20 PM, William Parkinson wrote: Thank you so much for the information Bhairitu . I tried to trace back my own mantra within the Advaita-shakti tradition and found that it was recorded in Shankara's 'Saundaryalahari.' Perhaps I am just slow witted, but I don't believe in Ishta-devatas or any of these deities. For me it is sort of like if an Italian person came to me and gave me an ancient religious tradition that was based on a belief in Hermes or Zeus or Neptune. These are just personifications of natural forces and experiences. Still, TM does work! I have my own secular explanation as to what I think makes it work, but of course maybe Kali, Lakshmi and the other goddesses of the Divine mother tradition are real! Nevertheless, I find it fascinating to trace the roots of this religious tradition. I hope you will add any further information you can on the tradition. There is so much I really do not understand about it or even about the growth of the tradition after Shankara. Perhaps others can shed further light upon the tradition that underlies TM. At this point, having heard too many testimonials concerning disrupted sleep patterns (even when they are seen as being helpful) I think I'm going to cut back my TM to 10 minutes each session and add 10 minutes of pranayama prior to doing the TM. Maybe in that fashion I can still get some of the benefits from the practice, but not develop full-blown CC, which would surface during my sleeping hours. Anyway thank you so much!! Cheers Bill From: Bhairitunoozg...@sbcglobal.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) On 07/13/2011 11:12 AM, William Parkinson wrote: Thank you so much for sharing with me what happened to you Ravi. I did not know that you are using something other than TM. The only reason why I practice TM is because having tried other meditations, TM, for better or worse, seems to allow me to transcend in the quickest manner I have ever experienced. That's because it's a beej mantra which are generally used to enrich longer mantras. They're short and create a quick dip. Longer mantras create a more sustained effect. Maharishi wanted people to get the advanced technique as early as a year and a half after the first. It resembles a guru mantra for the tradition. It happened in the first day or two, and that was something I can't say for any other form of meditation I tried, including classical concentration (which I started when I was perhaps 12 years old following the guidelines in a book by Richard Hittleman on Yoga), or vipanassana, or meditating on my breath while using a simple form of pranayama. For me TM is simply an expedient tool-- I have no desire to reach GC or UG and right now I'm just trying to figure out if I should even allowed to go so far as CC 24/7. Frankly this entire notion of having so-called Cosmic Consciousness, this awareness of a silent inner level, during sleep is something that concerns me. I wonder if it will make sleep far more difficult. You probably know that most brain wave research would say that deep sleep would be the delta state which is possible to produce through meditation too. Back in the 1970s I was part of a university study on meditation and had an EEG test. The researcher was looking for alpha waves but I produced theta. We now know that theta states (as well as delta) are signs of deeper states of mediation. I don't know why the movement keeps pushing alpha states. Witnessing in sleep is not uncommon when one practices advanced meditations. But you'll also find plenty of yogis who will tell you they are dead to the world during sleep and happy for it. I taught TM briefly in the late 70s. About 11 years ago I learned tantra from an authentic Indian tantric yogi who resides in the US. TM for me was a dead end because we were never taught things like mantra shastra or how to use different mantras. We were nothing more than parrots for the technique. With the tantric I learned things like mantra shastra. And I also worry about what I just
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?)
Bill, Thank you for your response. There were a number of things you shared in your posts, that piqued my interest, as to whether you had spent time in Canada and/or Africa. I'll touch on Canada and possibly another poster will bring you up to speed on my obsession with all things African. A kindly FFL poster fondly refers to me as someones chase plane, you could also check out my post For MZ 1, from earlier today. Concerning Canada, I noticed the spelling on your email handle. I also noticed how polite you were which on FFL stands out like someone trying to help an elderly person across the green line in late 70's Beirut. Then there's your interest in sleep and I don't want to miss your statement ...,I'm not interested in Enlightenment, because I don't believe it actually reflects reality (or perhaps it would be best to say, there is no external evidence which would corroborate what we feel in Enlightenment) And of course, there's the fact that you're a Professor of Religion, I believe much loved by your students-who has studied under some of the best minds in your field. So as I was reaching for my Webster's I remembered the last person who forced me to do that was MZ and over active imagination that I have, I thought, 'If I were MZ and wanted to die and be reborn on FFL I would want to come back as someone not unlike Professor Parkinson'. I realize how far out this seems so to help dig myself out of this hole I'll share something the wife just said. -Tell the Professor if he wants a meaningful discussion on higher consciousness to stick with Ravi, Rory, BNS (AKA WN), Bhairitu and Xeno, he's in good hands with them, but if he wants to expand his search to flashbacks than the Forrest Gump of the New Age is his man. So sorry about that, although it does seem we'll be able to pick up with you almost where we left off with MZ, which I'm very pleased about. PS: The only real insult on FFL is being ignored. PPS: If you are enjoying yourself, watch the 50 post rule for your weekly posts. From: William Parkinson ameradi...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 5:41:03 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Hello Bob and thank you for your kind words. I used to live in the Great White North. When I first started out to enter into a doctoral program I had two options open up to me. The first was at the University of Pennsylvania to study under Bob Kraft or to go to the University of Toronto to study under John Kloppenborg. Thankfully I was offered admission into both programs. I visited with both men and decided upon the University of Toronto. Bob Kraft was wonderful to me and he is a brilliant scholar, but the research that he wanted me to work on simply put me off. After meeting with John, and thinking that I would accept admission to the University of Toronto, I talked to another brilliant scholar in Canada by the name of Larry Hurtado. At that time he was at one of the worst universities in Canada-- the University of Manitoba. However, being American, I had no idea how bad it was. Anyway I drove from Toronto to Winnipeg and he spent 6 1/2 hours with me in his backyard, along with his wife, having a barbecue for me. He went so far out of his way and he was such a brilliant scholar that he convinced me to go to the University of Manitoba. Fortunately luck was going to smile upon the both of us. One day, about six months after being with Larry, he came to me and asked me to teach his classes for a few days. He never told me why or where he was going. Long story short, he had been interviewed at the University of Edinburgh in the UK (traditionally the third-best university there after Cambridge and Oxford so it was quite a feather in his cap) to be the chairman of the department. He did get the job there. So under the circumstanes both U. Penn and U.Toronto told me they would take me in if I did not want to go with him there. I did want to go, but back then the UK forced pet owners to quarantine their animals for six months upon entry into the UK. So, if I was to finish up my program with Larry over there I had to quickly find someone to accept my dogs. I got lucky again and found someone who would watch them. So I decided I would jump ship with him rather than to move over to the U. of Toronto or to U.Penn. Now I have to ask you: What made you think I had been in Canada or Africa? Now you had me curious! Cheers Bill From: Bob Price bobpri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Sleep and TM (are youstill there RC?) Dr. Parkinson, Welcome to FFL. I've been enjoying your exchanges with our fellow posters immensely. Lately, I've been trying to communicate in moving images but I'm
