Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 PM, feste37 wrote: Good question. I did TM for more than 30 years, but then about 7 or 8 years ago, I lost the desire to do it. This happened quite quickly, as I recall, over a period of maybe a few months. I just no longer had any desire to meditate, so I stopped doing it and have never gone back to it. Having said that, I still think it's a good technique that can dramatically change people's lives for the better, especially in the first year or so of practice, although I don't think it accomplishes all that its most ardent advocates claim for it, especially over the long term. Interesting how certain, once pressing needs or desires, can just disappear, leaving no impulse to pursue them any longer.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 8, 2011, at 4:38 AM, turquoiseb wrote: I wouldn't use the words placebo effect, as Vaj does I'd more specifically call it expectation effect from indoctrination, that expectation creating a style of placebo relaxation response. It really seems to center around belief. If you do not or cannot change the belief system you were imprinted with - and it seems because of the light trance states that TM induces makes such imprints more lasting - you may have to do more than change your belief. You may need to re-imprint yourself with a deeper, more integrated meditative experience to override the earlier imprint. Otherwise, you're stuck with what you got. And slowly over time, your brain have been altered to readjust the hardware to what you've been doing, month-to-month, year-to-year. Of course if you also surround yourself with people who echo back the same memes, you become that world - but become effectively trapped in a samsara of your own creation.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 7:53 AM, Vaj vajradh...@earthlink.net wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 PM, feste37 wrote: Good question. I did TM for more than 30 years, but then about 7 or 8 years ago, I lost the desire to do it. This happened quite quickly, as I recall, over a period of maybe a few months. I just no longer had any desire to meditate, so I stopped doing it and have never gone back to it. Having said that, I still think it's a good technique that can dramatically change people's lives for the better, especially in the first year or so of practice, although I don't think it accomplishes all that its most ardent advocates claim for it, especially over the long term. Interesting how certain, once pressing needs or desires, can just disappear, leaving no impulse to pursue them any longer. So why do you think people seem to get diminishing returns with decades of doing TM/TMSP? It's all so exciting during the first few years of TM, the first 2 advanced techniques, the first few years of the TMSP.I just can't buy the argument that one's working on deeper and more extensive stress/karma. If that were so, every few years, at least, there's be a lurch forward. But this isn't. Indeed people I know who come to IA for a few months every year and go back home actually find their quality of life degrading. And yes, they pay $25-$50/EUR 25/EUR 50 to get frequent checkings.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 8, 2011, at 8:40 AM, Tom Pall wrote: So why do you think people seem to get diminishing returns with decades of doing TM/TMSP? It's all so exciting during the first few years of TM, the first 2 advanced techniques, the first few years of the TMSP.I just can't buy the argument that one's working on deeper and more extensive stress/karma. If that were so, every few years, at least, there's be a lurch forward. But this isn't. Indeed people I know who come to IA for a few months every year and go back home actually find their quality of life degrading. And yes, they pay $25-$50/EUR 25/EUR 50 to get frequent checkings. There's no real mastery of the mind taking place, as it's too languid of a technique IMO. In traditional mantra meditation as I was taught it, the blank thought-free state, and esp. gaps in breathing were considered a sign that it was time to move onto the next stage, which was a more Patanjalian attentional training. Since an individual is more than a mental continuum, there's more to self-mastery than transcending the coarse mental level and imaging one's achieving samadhi. Without a stable foundation for ones telescope one cannot reliably create a subjective facility with which to experience clearly. The subjective facility never becomes reliable. It's like a bouncing telescope trying to observe the inner sky. Without mental vividness, mental perception is entrained as a fuzz. And unless one knows how to defeat mental laxity and excitation at the subtle level, one can never reach the level of complete pacification of afflictive emotional states like aggression or cravings. Over time this unmastery becomes hardwired. We're stuck. Getting stuck and staying stuck are great advantages for certain classes of gurus - esp. those with extensive and expensive product lines. It becomes like the Matrix: we don't even realize we're seeing a projected reality and we're actually suspended in an enslaving device intended to utilize our bodily or monetary energy.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
What's interesting, is the motivation, of dudes, who can't stay away---no matter how humiliated they get. Might be time to give it up to Jesus; not everyone can bowl. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbmqEiqMq4Yfeature=related From: Vaj vajradh...@earthlink.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 5:10:26 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK On Nov 8, 2011, at 4:38 AM, turquoiseb wrote: I wouldn't use the words placebo effect, as Vaj does I'd more specifically call it expectation effect from indoctrination, that expectation creating a style of placebo relaxation response. It really seems to center around belief. If you do not or cannot change the belief system you were imprinted with - and it seems because of the light trance states that TM induces makes such imprints more lasting - you may have to do more than change your belief. You may need to re-imprint yourself with a deeper, more integrated meditative experience to override the earlier imprint. Otherwise, you're stuck with what you got. And slowly over time, your brain have been altered to readjust the hardware to what you've been doing, month-to-month, year-to-year. Of course if you also surround yourself with people who echo back the same memes, you become that world - but become effectively trapped in a samsara of your own creation.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 8, 2011, at 9:40 AM, cardemaister wrote: Well, duh! That's rather exactly what according to PJ seems to be the conditio sine qua non of (asaMprajñaata?)-samaadhi (for upaaya-pratyaya-yogi_s): *shraddhaa*-viirya-smRti-samaadhi-prajñaa-puurvaka itareSaam! shraddhA f. faith , trust , confidence , trustfulness , faithfulness , belief in... Of course you'd have to accept that TM was a practice that related to the YS - which it does not. But even if it did, the deeper meaning of shraddha as I understood it was having faith that samadhi was the path and that the lineage from the guru was authentic, thus leading us to samadhi, which is a tool for realization. Since we now know two important things: there still is no evidence of higher states of consciousness in TMers as of 2011 and the sad news that MMY was not from the tradition he claimed, it's kind of irrelevant. You could certainly have the faith that MMY was from the tradition he claimed, but given what we know today, you'd be a fool to believe that. But he did put on a very convincing show. My point being such faith depends on the authenticity of the guru, not his stage presence or persona.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 8, 2011, at 9:40 AM, cardemaister wrote: Well, duh! That's rather exactly what according to PJ seems to be the conditio sine qua non of (asaMprajñaata?)-samaadhi (for upaaya-pratyaya-yogi_s): BTW, it's samprajnata NOT asamprajnata.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 8, 2011, at 11:09 AM, turquoiseb wrote: The reason is that in the years between then and now I've had many more experiences, some of which put the earlier experiences in the shade and raised the bar on my internal Woo Scale. What I used to consider a 9 I now consider a 4. I'm sure you get what I'm talking about. Oh yes, definitely. It was a long time before I was able to wrap my head around the fact that TM-style phenomenon were largely mental plane phenomenon. The light mental bliss I thought was so special, was just a mere shadow; the kundalini, mere prana-kundalini and the visions mental mirages. The perspective of time and experience changes everything.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 8, 2011, at 5:09 PM, Yifu wrote: To Vaj: ok, you experienced nothing of value from what you thought was TM but wasn't really. And, you prefer Mindfulness and Vipassana. Very good! It's all good IMO. There's a lot of wonderful people I would've missed if it weren't for TM. And I treasure it as a learning experience.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 8, 2011, at 5:09 PM, emptybill wrote: Vag: And unless one knows how to defeat mental laxity and excitation at the subtle level, one can never reach the level of complete pacification of afflictive emotional states like aggression or cravings. What Vag is not telling you is that this explanation is just standard Mahayana Buddhist instructions for training in sutra-level meditative concentration (shamata). It is not prescriptive for Mahamudra or Dzogchen. Those instructions are based upon effortlessness, as is the Chinese Zen (Chan) method of silent illumination (Mo-Zhao). Exactly. I approach the topic at it's own level. Very good Billy!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 6, 2011, at 9:56 PM, johnt johnlasher20002...@yahoo.com wrote: Then what is it saying. Be precise I value tradition in the sense that it preserves elements that are life supporting, it doesn't tell me how it works. That's what modern psychologists are only beginning to try and do do. Vedic masters were masters of what's now becoming NLP, however people just parroting what they heard doesn't show understanding. So how do you square the fact that Mahesh was not an actual student of SBS and the fact that TM is a perversion of the purity of what Guru Dev taught? How important could you value the Shank. tradition if you're supporting a distortion and an nonlineal tradition? Or are you just ignoring it and playing pretend?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 6, 2011, at 8:58 PM, johnt johnlasher20002...@yahoo.com wrote: You never will in a TM context, but if you study some of Milton Erickson, Bandler and Grinder and other related sources you will find that each part of a TM initiation has a well studied neurolinguistic effect which in this case is very effective at producing a self transcending accessing cue which accesses an experience at a primal (original) level prior to subsequent conditioning It's called the placebo effect silly. We actually now know where the TM puja came from and what sources the puja was hobbled together from. It's from a pundits poem that Mahesh was told to throw away. There's nothing magical about it at all - unless you believe it is. But it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 10:17 AM, jpgillam wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: On Nov 6, 2011, at 8:58 PM, johnt wrote: You never will in a TM context, but if you study some of Milton Erickson, Bandler and Grinder and other related sources you will find that each part of a TM initiation has a well studied neurolinguistic effect which in this case is very effective at producing a self transcending accessing cue which accesses an experience at a primal (original) level prior to subsequent conditioning It's called the placebo effect silly. I thought the placebo effect tended to go away after a few weeks. I've been getting results from the TM puja for 34 years. It stills my mind. I recite it often, for that purpose. The way we know the TM puja and initiation process acts like a placebo is because independent researchers fabricated a faux-TM instruction and were able to get the exact same results as TM - the same EEG profile and relaxation response, everything. So it's not the mantra at all, it's the inculcation of belief. The puja is dramatic and convincing to most types of people who self-select based on the intro lecture (and we actually know what types of people self-select TM).
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:25 PM, richardwillytexwilliams wrote: emptybill: This is the usual disinformation from Vag, the master of misanthropic subterfuge. Here are the reality of the TM Puja: It looks like we've got another fib by Vaj, but why would he be fibbing, when it's so easy to source the material? Go figure. What did you think I was referring to? Gosh you guys are dim.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
The first thing any research needs to do is to learn the procedures and they won't do that so they'll always be spectators and draw false conclusions. Shakti is simply life force, a concept beyond the ability of contemporary science to understand. One should also look into the yoga of sound and understand how sound effects people, not in an NLP way but a vibratory way. It's more physics than anything else. Mantras work due to their resonance and charged they work faster than when they're not. You'll see in books the instruction where one must repeat a certain mantra 100,000 times to get results. But that's from the book and if give by a guru it may take only 100 repetitions. On 11/06/2011 09:22 PM, johnt wrote: No one can explain what the shakti energy is yet but they certainly agree it can be passed on through the process known as entrainment. There is some early research that may indicate that shakti can be seen on kirlian photography and others can be seen being entrained by it, but it's still early in the process of understanding. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: I'm talking about shakti which is an energy. You should be experiencing it when you meditate. I can transfer that energy to someone else without saying a word, just by touching them. So explain that by NLP. You can't. They are going down the wrong road though they wouldn't be the first researchers to do that by any means. ;-) On 11/06/2011 06:56 PM, johnt wrote: Then what is it saying. Be precise I value tradition in the sense that it preserves elements that are life supporting, it doesn't tell me how it works. That's what modern psychologists are only beginning to try and do do. Vedic masters were masters of what's now becoming NLP, however people just parroting what they heard doesn't show understanding. What exactly do YOU mean by charged --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: Oh yes it does. Centuries of tantrics and yogis would argue with you on that. These guys you are talking about are blind men feeling an elephant. :-D On 11/06/2011 06:00 PM, johnt wrote: charge is a nice ooga booga term that says nothing. It's only part of philosophy not science unless you understand it in the sense of Rupert sheldrake' morphic field, in which case your saying the same thing I am. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@wrote: That's a wild ass theory trying to make the puja sound scientific. What the puja actually does is charge the mantra. In other traditions you are given the mantra by someone who has enough juice to charge the mantra with shakti without the need for a puja. Reciting a 3-4 minute puja takes it place. It would have taken years to create even a small army of TM teachers the traditional way. The traditional way is what Muktananda used and his instructors gave shaktipat along with the mantra. It is also the way my tantra teacher has instructed me to teach people. On 11/05/2011 11:48 PM, Denise Evans wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? From: johntjohnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:18 PM, richardwillytexwilliams wrote: Vaj: ...it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up. What exactly, are the parts by MMY that are different from those recited by GD? From what I've heard, the MMY GD puja is standard - I've heard it recited by at least three sources other than the TMO, such as at a recent Sri Sri Ravi Shankar yoga camp. Sri Sri says it's the same as the one recited by GD, the one recited at the Jyortirmath Peeth in the Himalayas. Explain how Mahesh used what was to be thrown away to hobble together the puja: http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/sources/text/MMY.htm Right from the very early times, MMY definitely claimed that the meditation he teaches (TM) was taught to him by Guru Dev [a fact now known to be false]. A look at page 244 of 'Thirty Years Around the World' (a TMO publication by Maharishi Vedic University, 1986) confirms this. Allegedly on 29th April 1959 Maharishi Mahesh Yogi told journalists:- 'My life truly began 19 years ago at the feet of my master when I learned the secret of swift and deep meditation, a secret I now impart to the world.' In the TM puja there are four lines which refer directly to Guru Dev: yadvaare nikhilaa nilimpaparishatsiddhiM vidhatte.anisham shrimat shriilasitaM jagadgurupadaM natvaa.atmatR^iptiM gataaH lokaaGYaanapayoda paaTanadhuraM shriisha~NkaraM sharmadam brahmaanandasaraswatiiM guruvaraM dhyaayaami jyotirmayam which means:- 'At whose door the whole galaxy of gods pray for perfection day and night. Adorned by immeasurable glory, preceptor of the whole world, having bowed down to Him, we gain fulfilment. Skilled in dispelling the cloud of ignorance of the people, the gentle emancipator, Brahmananda Saraswati, the supreme teacher, full of brilliance, on Him we meditate.' Maharishi explains who wrote these lines:- 'This was done by us, I didn't compose those lines, because I am not a Sanskrit scholar, but this was done by a, very, very eminent Sanskrit poet of Banares, and he was, such a mysterious man, the poet 1. He used to live us, just like us, and a good pandit, and when some, some pandits, learned people used to come to pay their respects to Guru Dev, and he would sit like that. And generally it is traditional, that in the presence of Shankaracharya, pandits gather. Pandits mean the learned people, highly great intellectuals of the country. They sit together, and they, try to bring home to Shankaracharya, each one of them, that he is the greater pandit than the others. And these dialogues are so highly intellectual and so very interesting, because they, everyone wants to, to win the grace of Shankaracharya, apart from his spiritual development for their material glorification, because a certificate from the Shankaracharya, of the great learning of the pandits will make him flourish in his area. So, they, very beautiful, and this pandit he used to defeat everyone, because he was a born poet, poet. He would versify anything that he wants to say. In poetry he would speak. And when in poetry, and so fluent and so high-class, so, high-class fluent Sanskrit poetry, and others would just sit and listen to him, what he says. He was very dear, sweet pandit. He wrote lots of stanzas of Guru Dev, absolutely and, and this was one of them. What happened was... this is very interesting this great pandit in his flight of, of the poet, he wrote Guru Dev's life, and he, he didn't know Guru Dev's life. Because all the time was spent in loneliness in the jungles, and, nobody would know. And he said to me, I am going to write. And I said Yes, you write, and this was our agreement that I'll get it printed, and he wrote, and I enjoyed it so much, but someday it was to come to Guru Dev for sanction. So, Guru Dev, he enjoyed hearing the whole thing. It was highly scholarly and very great, and everything that, that a good poet could put in that, he put it. And then, when it was finished Guru Dev said, It's very good, yes. And when the pandit went out of the room he asked him to take it to the Ganges, tie it down with a big stone, heavy, put it in the Ganges. And I, it was a shock to me, I said But, but there are beautiful passages in it. He said, Don't talk!' He said, Nobody should read it, tell him to take it, it is because he didn't know his life and he said If you don't put it in the Ganges I'll ask someone else to do it. I said, I'll do it. We would have used all those beautiful, sen... poetry. These days you would have enjoyed all. But he wouldn't allow it to remain. He was absolutely divine, simple and great, very great, he was very great.' Note 1. The poet was 'Ashu Kavi', Pandit Veni Madhava Sastri. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi speaking in February / March 1969 in Rishikesh India
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Sorry but I just don't buy the NLP story. It just sounds like a ignorant flatlander theory. On 11/07/2011 12:54 PM, johnt wrote: Since you seem to not be aware of it NLP deals extensively with sound vibration known as auditory tonal as contrasted to auditory digital which deals with the meaning of words. Read a little before you comment. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: The first thing any research needs to do is to learn the procedures and they won't do that so they'll always be spectators and draw false conclusions. Shakti is simply life force, a concept beyond the ability of contemporary science to understand. One should also look into the yoga of sound and understand how sound effects people, not in an NLP way but a vibratory way. It's more physics than anything else. Mantras work due to their resonance and charged they work faster than when they're not. You'll see in books the instruction where one must repeat a certain mantra 100,000 times to get results. But that's from the book and if give by a guru it may take only 100 repetitions. On 11/06/2011 09:22 PM, johnt wrote: No one can explain what the shakti energy is yet but they certainly agree it can be passed on through the process known as entrainment. There is some early research that may indicate that shakti can be seen on kirlian photography and others can be seen being entrained by it, but it's still early in the process of understanding. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: I'm talking about shakti which is an energy. You should be experiencing it when you meditate. I can transfer that energy to someone else without saying a word, just by touching them. So explain that by NLP. You can't. They are going down the wrong road though they wouldn't be the first researchers to do that by any means. ;-) On 11/06/2011 06:56 PM, johnt wrote: Then what is it saying. Be precise I value tradition in the sense that it preserves elements that are life supporting, it doesn't tell me how it works. That's what modern psychologists are only beginning to try and do do. Vedic masters were masters of what's now becoming NLP, however people just parroting what they heard doesn't show understanding. What exactly do YOU mean by charged --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@wrote: Oh yes it does. Centuries of tantrics and yogis would argue with you on that. These guys you are talking about are blind men feeling an elephant. :-D On 11/06/2011 06:00 PM, johnt wrote: charge is a nice ooga booga term that says nothing. It's only part of philosophy not science unless you understand it in the sense of Rupert sheldrake' morphic field, in which case your saying the same thing I am. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: That's a wild ass theory trying to make the puja sound scientific. What the puja actually does is charge the mantra. In other traditions you are given the mantra by someone who has enough juice to charge the mantra with shakti without the need for a puja. Reciting a 3-4 minute puja takes it place. It would have taken years to create even a small army of TM teachers the traditional way. The traditional way is what Muktananda used and his instructors gave shaktipat along with the mantra. It is also the way my tantra teacher has instructed me to teach people. On 11/05/2011 11:48 PM, Denise Evans wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? From: johntjohnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 3:27 PM, jpgillam jpgil...@yahoo.com wrote: My most profound experience of the stilling power of the puja occurred when I was learning it on my TM teacher training course. One afternoon upon finishing my rounds I sang the puja as I sat on my bed. Afterward, I had intended to mentally review some other material I was memorizing, but I could not summon a thought. I was awake and alert, but I was mentally constipated. I just stared at the wall for a few minutes before I could get a thought to bubble up. That's when I realized that the purpose of the puja was to shift my center from my thoughts and feelings to the stillness of consciousness itself, which, by the way, is a good definition of a first stage of enlightenment. I transcended during the puja and the initiator had to stop and wait for me to come back. I was gone for quite some time. This was so memorable to my initiator that when I made contact with him finally after all these years he repeated asked Who are you?.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
It's cobbled from a number of different recitations and shuddhis including the guru puja. The tradition of masters is the only thing that is probably TM unique. There is no one standard puja. Offerings different and length according to who is performing the puja. On 11/07/2011 01:50 PM, Susan wrote: Wait a minute, Vaj. The TM puja is the same as used by many Hindus. When I initiated Hindus from India they could sing it along with me - pretty much word for word. What ever else you might think of TM, this is not something MMY hobbled together at all. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vajvajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:18 PM, richardwillytexwilliams wrote: Vaj: ...it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up. What exactly, are the parts by MMY that are different from those recited by GD? From what I've heard, the MMY GD puja is standard - I've heard it recited by at least three sources other than the TMO, such as at a recent Sri Sri Ravi Shankar yoga camp. Sri Sri says it's the same as the one recited by GD, the one recited at the Jyortirmath Peeth in the Himalayas. Explain how Mahesh used what was to be thrown away to hobble together the puja: http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/sources/text/MMY.htm Right from the very early times, MMY definitely claimed that the meditation he teaches (TM) was taught to him by Guru Dev [a fact now known to be false]. A look at page 244 of 'Thirty Years Around the World' (a TMO publication by Maharishi Vedic University, 1986) confirms this. Allegedly on 29th April 1959 Maharishi Mahesh Yogi told journalists:- 'My life truly began 19 years ago at the feet of my master when I learned the secret of swift and deep meditation, a secret I now impart to the world.' In the TM puja there are four lines which refer directly to Guru Dev: yadvaare nikhilaa nilimpaparishatsiddhiM vidhatte.anisham shrimat shriilasitaM jagadgurupadaM natvaa.atmatR^iptiM gataaH lokaaGYaanapayoda paaTanadhuraM shriisha~NkaraM sharmadam brahmaanandasaraswatiiM guruvaraM dhyaayaami jyotirmayam which means:- 'At whose door the whole galaxy of gods pray for perfection day and night. Adorned by immeasurable glory, preceptor of the whole world, having bowed down to Him, we gain fulfilment. Skilled in dispelling the cloud of ignorance of the people, the gentle emancipator, Brahmananda Saraswati, the supreme teacher, full of brilliance, on Him we meditate.' Maharishi explains who wrote these lines:- 'This was done by us, I didn't compose those lines, because I am not a Sanskrit scholar, but this was done by a, very, very eminent Sanskrit poet of Banares, and he was, such a mysterious man, the poet 1. He used to live us, just like us, and a good pandit, and when some, some pandits, learned people used to come to pay their respects to Guru Dev, and he would sit like that. And generally it is traditional, that in the presence of Shankaracharya, pandits gather. Pandits mean the learned people, highly great intellectuals of the country. They sit together, and they, try to bring home to Shankaracharya, each one of them, that he is the greater pandit than the others. And these dialogues are so highly intellectual and so very interesting, because they, everyone wants to, to win the grace of Shankaracharya, apart from his spiritual development for their material glorification, because a certificate from the Shankaracharya, of the great learning of the pandits will make him flourish in his area. So, they, very beautiful, and this pandit he used to defeat everyone, because he was a born poet, poet. He would versify anything that he wants to say. In poetry he would speak. And when in poetry, and so fluent and so high-class, so, high-class fluent Sanskrit poetry, and others would just sit and listen to him, what he says. He was very dear, sweet pandit. He wrote lots of stanzas of Guru Dev, absolutely and, and this was one of them. What happened was... this is very interesting this great pandit in his flight of, of the poet, he wrote Guru Dev's life, and he, he didn't know Guru Dev's life. Because all the time was spent in loneliness in the jungles, and, nobody would know. And he said to me, I am going to write. And I said Yes, you write, and this was our agreement that I'll get it printed, and he wrote, and I enjoyed it so much, but someday it was to come to Guru Dev for sanction. So, Guru Dev, he enjoyed hearing the whole thing. It was highly scholarly and very great, and everything that, that a good poet could put in that, he put it. And then, when it was finished Guru Dev said, It's very good, yes. And when the pandit went out of the room he asked him to take it to the Ganges, tie it down with a big stone, heavy, put it in the Ganges. And I, it was a shock to me, I said But, but there are beautiful passages in it. He said, Don't talk!' He said, Nobody should read
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 4:18 PM, maskedzebra wrote: The majority of TM initiators not only stopped teaching TM, but have probably even stopped meditating. I am almost certain of this. That's true. It was actually true before recertification was required. However, for you to propose that the Puja ceremony works on the basis of the placebo effect is so bizarre and misinformed as to be the same as saying that when you are in a car that is moving, it turns out it is really an illusion: you are actually not going anywhere. Maybe one in a hundred TM initiators (of all those that Maharishi made teachers) still do the Puja;; but even all those who have turned their back on TM and Maharishi, they, to a one, know that *the Puja works*. That is, to say, singing the Puga (especially in the context of teaching someone to meditate) alters one's consciousness, changes one's perception, and acts on every level of one's being, including the physical. Well it's important to understand the context of the comment. Early TM marketing emphasized that TM was unique, you could get a mantra anywhere, but nothing was like TM - or so they wanted us and the public to believe. A couple dozen lousy research studies attempted to bolster the idea. If you were part of the TM buzz, you felt special, part of an in crowd, and possessor of something unique, lineal and ancient-but-scientific. Neuroscientists were of course interested to see if there actually was something unique, as claimed. One after one, all the key claims were found to be false: -it was not unique, it was actually a common relaxation response. -researchers used methodology to isolate the mantra as a variable and found there was also nothing special about the mantra - the TM experience (neurologically speaking) wasn't unique at all. It could be replicated with faux-TM in naive subjects. -metabolic rate, alleged to be much deeper than deep sleep also turned out to be false (and it appeared Wallace had used vey deceptive methodology to fake the results). TM was actually no different from a nap. -etc., etc. Now I personally would never conceive of doing a Puja, because of its very power to change me in a way that I believe is inimical to sustaining the integrity of my own personality.But for you to advance the idea that the effect of singing the Puja is produced by the placebo effect, this is the final evidence of your fraudulent claim to be a TM initiator. And not only this: it proves you never learned TM, because you would not make this claim had you passed through that experience. I would actually say most of the puja could be attributed to expectation effect from indoctrination, that expectation creating a style of placebo effect. Having said that, there are subtle aspects of mantra that allude the blade of science. But again, they're highly subjective - and since TM does not aim to balance attention nor does it allow a mindful clarify of the object of meditation, it's like trying to look at the stars through a telescope and hoping to see them clearly. The object of meditation largely remains a fuzzy buzz alternating with a comfortable laya. It's very comfortable and those with previous awakening of their shakti can progress. Others tend to languish and sleep. The principle of charm it turns out, isn't charming enough. Consciousness is not discerned clearly, but one is indoctrinated that mental silence IS pure consciousness. Tell it to someone else. No, Vaj; you must stop this. Whatever TM, Maharishi, and the Puja are all about, the notion of the placebo effect is utterly inapplicable. I have the strongest resistance and aversion to the TM experience, to Maharishi, to the Puja; but I know this: were I to sing it alone right now, and go through the proper ritualistic motions (and offerings) my consciousness would undergo an objective change, and I would find myself, however subtly, in another context than the one I am in as I write this. TM and the Puja, they do, as Maharishi insisted, operate mechanically. Your attempt to portray the Puja as a placebo effect is so wrong-headed, so false to reality, and therefore such a lie, it would be as if you said that lifting weights cannot affect your muscles. Not one initiator could ever say to himself or herself: That Puja thing; it was just the placebo effect. And if anyone saying he or she was an former initiator said it worked on the basis of the placebo effect, every initiator in the world—who did not have a dishonest agenda—would know that such a person never knew Maharishi, never learned Transcendental Meiditation, and never was a Teacher of TM. The Puja was perhaps the most powerful thing about the whole TM Movement. And it truly bathed us in the purest form of Hinduism. You never got baptized, Vaj. You are an outsider. Even among those of us who have repudiated Maharishi and TM and the beneficence of their
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 4:40 PM, John wrote: Vaj, You should do some research before making such disingenuous statements. Parts of the TM puja actually can be found in the Vishnu kavach which is stated in Srila Prabhupada's commentary to the Srimad Bhagavatam. I'm well aware that it was hobbled together from various sources already John. I actually remember Paul Mason being kind enough to write to a bunch of us and show us his research on it's origins. Of course posting it here met with an, uh, silence. Now all the sudden everyones seeming to catch up to most of it, except the part where SBS insisted it be attached to a heavy rock and hurled into the Ganges...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Susan wrote: Wait a minute, Vaj. The TM puja is the same as used by many Hindus. When I initiated Hindus from India they could sing it along with me - pretty much word for word. What ever else you might think of TM, this is not something MMY hobbled together at all. I think you should review the evidence. The melody is traditional and occurs in numerous other rituals, as are other pieces of it.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 4:57 PM, Bhairitu wrote: It's cobbled from a number of different recitations and shuddhis including the guru puja. The tradition of masters is the only thing that is probably TM unique. There is no one standard puja. Offerings different and length according to who is performing the puja. And we now know at least part of it was done by a poet-pandit and retrieved instead of destroyed despite the insistence of his master. Such is the karma of Asuriac gurus the west is oh so familiar with. Vimalananda was right.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 6:00 PM, feste37 wrote: As a former TM teacher who taught hundreds of people but no longer practices TM, I would say that MZ is absolutely correct here in every point he so eloquently makes. If I may ask: why on earth did you stop doing TM Feste?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Entrainment...expressed beautifully in a song. From: merudanda no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 4:30 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbxUXAMUeGk --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@... wrote: Sheeet. please please do not make the walking mantra of my kids public!! Is that what brainwashing is? From: johnt johnlasher20002000@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
I hear you. I'm going to check this out, here, because it's accessible and easy and I'm lazy. I don't join groups and never say pledges, but it's time to try out a few new things. http://seattleinsight.org/ From: obbajeeba no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 9:29 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Denise, I do TM and I do not see it as brainwashing, other than washing the brain of clutter, naturally. I like it. It makes me feel good. All the crap of people trying to manipulate in the TMO, are only that of people who had previously manipulating behaviors, IMHO, and not the result of practicing TM, in itself. Although, it took me quite a few years to figure it out and I have been fooled by some of them. The fools anger me to no end, because they can make what looks good appear like a piece of shit. This category of, fools, does not include people with claims of injury and hurt by people in the organization or people who may have had a bad experience with the presenter, the Maharishi. I believe these people have a right to express their opinion and also seek comforting or similar words to help them cope with whatever it was that made them sad, pissed off, or even stop meditating. They are not judged as any kind of losers in my thinking sphere. I had to really look at the source of my frustrations and that being how I viewed those who idol worship and are on power trips. I will probably continue to bash the idiots on this FFL board, but that does not mean I am bashing TM or any other practice that brings people peace and bliss. I could not have learned it from a book, because http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5035TY5RSpg my questions exceed what a book can answer. I have met good TM teachers and bad TM teachers. For the most part, having friends who practice this same practice does not make a mold one could formulate the same stereotype person from, as all opinions differ among this same practicing group. I have lots of very good friends who meditate and lots who do not meditate. I am happy with them all. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@ wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? Nope. It's not necessarily what *TM* is, either. I don't know where johnt picked up this purported explanation, but I've never encountered it in the TM context. From: johnt johnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Thanks. I might. Judy also pointed out that I don't understand the meaning of the term brainwashing. It was an off the cuff remark better left unsaid - I apologize. Stupid's o.k. with me though. From: johnt johnlasher20002...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 5:49 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK try reading some of Bandler and Grinder and some NLP research and educate yourself or just stay stupid --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@... wrote: Sheeet. Â Is that what brainwashing is? From: johnt johnlasher20002000@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Â Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Oh yes it does. Centuries of tantrics and yogis would argue with you on that. These guys you are talking about are blind men feeling an elephant. :-D On 11/06/2011 06:00 PM, johnt wrote: charge is a nice ooga booga term that says nothing. It's only part of philosophy not science unless you understand it in the sense of Rupert sheldrake' morphic field, in which case your saying the same thing I am. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: That's a wild ass theory trying to make the puja sound scientific. What the puja actually does is charge the mantra. In other traditions you are given the mantra by someone who has enough juice to charge the mantra with shakti without the need for a puja. Reciting a 3-4 minute puja takes it place. It would have taken years to create even a small army of TM teachers the traditional way. The traditional way is what Muktananda used and his instructors gave shaktipat along with the mantra. It is also the way my tantra teacher has instructed me to teach people. On 11/05/2011 11:48 PM, Denise Evans wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? From: johntjohnlasher20002000@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
I'm talking about shakti which is an energy. You should be experiencing it when you meditate. I can transfer that energy to someone else without saying a word, just by touching them. So explain that by NLP. You can't. They are going down the wrong road though they wouldn't be the first researchers to do that by any means. ;-) On 11/06/2011 06:56 PM, johnt wrote: Then what is it saying. Be precise I value tradition in the sense that it preserves elements that are life supporting, it doesn't tell me how it works. That's what modern psychologists are only beginning to try and do do. Vedic masters were masters of what's now becoming NLP, however people just parroting what they heard doesn't show understanding. What exactly do YOU mean by charged --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: Oh yes it does. Centuries of tantrics and yogis would argue with you on that. These guys you are talking about are blind men feeling an elephant. :-D On 11/06/2011 06:00 PM, johnt wrote: charge is a nice ooga booga term that says nothing. It's only part of philosophy not science unless you understand it in the sense of Rupert sheldrake' morphic field, in which case your saying the same thing I am. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: That's a wild ass theory trying to make the puja sound scientific. What the puja actually does is charge the mantra. In other traditions you are given the mantra by someone who has enough juice to charge the mantra with shakti without the need for a puja. Reciting a 3-4 minute puja takes it place. It would have taken years to create even a small army of TM teachers the traditional way. The traditional way is what Muktananda used and his instructors gave shaktipat along with the mantra. It is also the way my tantra teacher has instructed me to teach people. On 11/05/2011 11:48 PM, Denise Evans wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? From: johntjohnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
