Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
alfin...@boxbe.com On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 4:25 AM, Robert 'Bob' Jensen b...@fedoraunity.orgwrote: Junk Score: 1 out of 10 (below your Auto Allow threshold) | Change: https://www.boxbe.com/mail-screeningtc=147907721_1484328999 Approve sender: https://www.boxbe.com/policy_update?sender=fedora-devel-list%40redhat.comtc=147907721_1484328999 Block sender: https://www.boxbe.com/policy_update?sender=fedora-devel-list%40redhat.comaction=adddisp=btc=147907721_1484328999 ___ - Jesse Keating jkeat...@redhat.com wrote: And this is what pisses me off, and why I say you're holding us hostage. Whether or not it is a good idea to continue to produce them, you don't care, you're just going to do it anyway. Great way to run a project. Jesse, Both Fedora Project and Fedora Unity have users that want, need or download in error CD media. The simple difference in the future of CD media is that we, Fedora Unity, are choosing to not remove the users freedom of choice. Giving users freedom of choice is how we run our project. We have faith that Fedora Project will do what it feels is best for it's contributors and resources. Independent of what Fedora Project does we also will do what we feel is best for our users and also keep in mind our resources. No one should feel they are being held hostage. Without the hard work Fedora Project puts in to a release and the subsequent updates Fedora Unity could not produce any media. I feel it is in our best interest to work together to resolve issues, I have always felt this way, unfortunately history has shown that this is not often possible. I keep hoping it will someday happen. - Bob | Robert 'Bob' Jensen|| Fedora Unity Founder | | b...@fedoraunity.org|| http://fedoraunity.org/ | | http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ | |http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen| -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list ___ http://boxbe.com/?tc=147907721_1484328999 | D93HG9EB -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On 06/18/2009 04:41 AM, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: No particular reason with a traceable track record, but I've understood that anything that is not composed with pungi or livecd-tools will be blocked as they are the blessed and preferred tools for the job(s). You use whatever tool you want but as long as rel-eng can work either pungi or livecd-tools to produce the same result, it doesn't matter. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Wednesday 17 June 2009 15:17:28 Jesse Keating wrote: On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 15:14 -0400, Jarod Wilson wrote: I thought an official spin could only be a live image. i.e., once you start letting the user choose packages in anaconda, it can't be an official spin anymore. At least, I'm pretty sure that was the case a while back, unless the guidelines have changed while I had my head buried in the sand. I don't know that we forced spins to be live, I just don't think anybody came up with a good spin concept for a choose your own adventure. I have vague recollections of the topic coming up at FUDCon Boston '09 in the spins group discussion, and I swear there was something specific said about only live spins being an option at the time, but I now see at least a header for non-live spins on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_Guidelines, so I'll go back in my hole now... :) -- Jarod Wilson ja...@redhat.com -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Thoughts? Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
We've seen arguments, for and against. Statistics and Numbers, thinking! Get the community involved. *Find Out* As I've stated earlier: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-June/msg01015.html Run a poll, get the fp.o to run a poll, and blog\twitter etc. *Don't ask pointed questions* Do you want to keep split-cd for Fedoa X rather What is you preferred method of obtaining Fedora With a realistic range of values as check-boxes\radio buttons. looking at: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-June/msg01426.html I would also included an option, and this would probably go further up the chain. Would you be willing to buy a 4(8)gb usb stick with Fedora X (DVD contents on it), supplied with a boot CD. (This could also be an Ambassador supplied option, either way costs only) If all that can be done by F12 fine, if not defer the whole thing to F13. Frank -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Thomas Janssen on 06/17/2009 03:19 AM wrote: Ubuntu Alternative Thats not a LiveCD. It's just a install CD. No Live. So? Your point? A Fedora LiveCD is an install CD. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Jeroen van Meeuwen (kana...@kanarip.com) said: Something else not terribly unreasonable, instead of split CD media, a single CD offered that is netinst.iso plus the contents of @core and @base if it'll fit on a CD. Then they can do whatever custom install they want, and add packages after install, either from a DVD media or from a local mirror, or from the Internet. That's exactly what Fedora Unity is about to release for Fedora 11. Any particular reason why this is (or isn't) a spin? Bill -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
- Michael Cronenworth m...@cchtml.com wrote: So? Your point? A Fedora LiveCD is an install CD. There are several points that I hope will be taken from the entire thread. Some people do not like the LiveCD install option, or lack of options as they may see it. The point I failed to communicate earlier that lead to a lot of noise is Fedora Unity's position. It is simple really, Even if Fedora Project does not produce CD media, Unity still has users that want it, so the community that needs it should not panic. I think producing media for niche groups is perfect for smaller organizations or groups, Just like the FEL Spin or KDE Live media for the KDE SIG. We need real data if at all possible from as many sources as possible so the Fedora Project and the Community that Fedora Unity is a part of can make a true informed decision. We really should not feel that we need to worry about upstream projects such as anaconda, they should be allowed to drop or abandon the needed code if they want or need to. Fedora Project also should not feel that is needs to worry about downstream projects like Fedora Unity, we will hold our own and do what is needed to supply users with this niche media. There may be other bits that I have overlooked but I think this covers the big bullets. - Bob P.S. Kevin is not a bad guy, just pissed in my Wheaties(tm) at the wrong time. | Robert 'Bob' Jensen|| Fedora Unity Founder | | b...@fedoraunity.org|| http://fedoraunity.org/ | | http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ | |http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen| -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Wednesday 17 June 2009 14:01:02 Bill Nottingham wrote: Jeroen van Meeuwen (kana...@kanarip.com) said: Something else not terribly unreasonable, instead of split CD media, a single CD offered that is netinst.iso plus the contents of @core and @base if it'll fit on a CD. Then they can do whatever custom install they want, and add packages after install, either from a DVD media or from a local mirror, or from the Internet. That's exactly what Fedora Unity is about to release for Fedora 11. Any particular reason why this is (or isn't) a spin? I thought an official spin could only be a live image. i.e., once you start letting the user choose packages in anaconda, it can't be an official spin anymore. At least, I'm pretty sure that was the case a while back, unless the guidelines have changed while I had my head buried in the sand. -- Jarod Wilson ja...@redhat.com -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 15:14 -0400, Jarod Wilson wrote: I thought an official spin could only be a live image. i.e., once you start letting the user choose packages in anaconda, it can't be an official spin anymore. At least, I'm pretty sure that was the case a while back, unless the guidelines have changed while I had my head buried in the sand. I don't know that we forced spins to be live, I just don't think anybody came up with a good spin concept for a choose your own adventure. However we did plan for it by naming the DVD/Split CDs we do now the Fedora spin and putting it in its own directory. So you could have releases/12/Everything releases/12/Fedora releases/12/Fedora-Minimal releases/12/Live or some such. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
2009/6/17 Michael Cronenworth m...@cchtml.com: Thomas Janssen on 06/17/2009 03:19 AM wrote: Ubuntu Alternative Thats not a LiveCD. It's just a install CD. No Live. So? Your point? A Fedora LiveCD is an install CD. My point.. It is/was obviously that you dont know what an alternative CD is. So i explained it to you. But i failed. Maybe you grab one in your spare time and check out the alternative installation possibilities, compared to a LiveCD. VM`s are great for that. -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Thomas Janssen on 06/17/2009 03:25 PM wrote: My point.. It is/was obviously that you dont know what an alternative CD is. So i explained it to you. But i failed. Maybe you grab one in your spare time and check out the alternative installation possibilities, compared to a LiveCD. VM`s are great for that. What's with the negative comment? I know what an alternative installation is. A LiveCD is too offensive for you? We need 10 different installation CD types? Why? -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Jesse Keating wrote: And this is what pisses me off, and why I say you're holding us hostage. Whether or not it is a good idea to continue to produce them, you don't care, you're just going to do it anyway. Great way to run a project. Just drop support for split media from Anaconda, then they won't be able to do it without changing Anaconda, at which point they can't use the Fedora name anymore. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.atwrote: Seth Vidal wrote: 1. we're going to need split media for dvds - we're SOL there anyway - so the code will need to live on. Just kick out all the i18n stuff and you won't. It doesn't make sense to force people to download the translations for all the languages spoken anywhere on the planet. People normally need one or at most a handful of langpacks. It's best to add that post install, that way one only has to download the actually needed langpack(s) and not all of them. As for Everything DVD sets, that's also something Fedora doesn't produce, so it should also be FedoraUnity's problem. Kevin Kofler Even if it is Fedora Unity's problem, Fedora Project would still have to maintain the anaconda code that allows split media installation. Ubuntu seems to do fine including quite a few language packs on their LiveCD while providing a decent desktop. Unless a flat-file dpkg database makes a huge difference to the BerkleyDB rpmdb in terms of size, there isn't any reason that Fedora cannot make available a desktop just as functional as the Ubuntu one (like having OpenOffice included). -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:22 AM, King InuYashangomp...@gmail.com wrote: Ubuntu seems to do fine including quite a few language packs on their LiveCD while providing a decent desktop. Can you make me a full accurate list of the languages supported on the Ubuntu LiveCD. -jef -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12? DO NOT VOTE for Kevin Kofler!
- Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: No, we could just drop support for it and have FedoraUnity decide whether they want to fork Anaconda (and no longer be able to use the Fedora name) or just stop shipping split media. Kevin Kofler Rock on, let this be an example of the leadership the community can expect if Kevin is elected. Hold the community hostage while ignoring the users needs. I would think that working with the community would be a better approach. What is next? Will the anaconda team be mandated to not accept patches from the community and forced to remove any code for split media? What if they want to continue supporting split media? Will you then suggest that Fedora Project start a new installer project? - Bob | Robert 'Bob' Jensen|| Fedora Unity Founder | | b...@fedoraunity.org|| http://fedoraunity.org/ | | http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ | |http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen| -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12? DO NOT VOTE for Kevin Kofler!
On Tue, 16 Jun 2009, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: - Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: No, we could just drop support for it and have FedoraUnity decide whether they want to fork Anaconda (and no longer be able to use the Fedora name) or just stop shipping split media. Kevin Kofler Rock on, let this be an example of the leadership the community can expect if Kevin is elected. Hold the community hostage while ignoring the users needs. I would think that working with the community would be a better approach. What is next? Will the anaconda team be mandated to not accept patches from the community and forced to remove any code for split media? What if they want to continue supporting split media? Will you then suggest that Fedora Project start a new installer project? okay. chill out, everyone. There's more than enough demagoguery to go around. -sv -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
I wrote: No, we could just drop support for it and have FedoraUnity decide whether they want to fork Anaconda (and no longer be able to use the Fedora name) or just stop shipping split media. and one of the FedoraUnity folks responded by posting a rant on his blog about how I am against the community and ineligible (in the litteral sense of the word) for FESCo because of what I wrote. So let me summarize what's going on: * People are wondering whether it still makes sense to ship split CDs in a DVD era, also considering the other options which are still available for people with only a CD drive (live CDs, which are the recommended install method these days, at least if you believe the download page, and netinstalls). * Some evidence is provided to show how split media download counts are very low and decreasing with every release. * Some Anaconda developers report that split media is a source of complexity in Anaconda they'd love to be able to do away with. (Though to be fair, the practicality of this is disputed in the light of issues with staying below the size of a DVD.) * There seem to be significant community voices in favor of dropping split CD media. * Fedora Unity responds by saying they will provide split media *no matter what*, even in the event everyone else in the community agreed on it not beeing needed, and judging from the reaction to my suggestion of just dropping Anaconda support for them, they also seem to expect the Anaconda developers to do the work of keeping split media working. Jesse Keating summarized this aptly as holding Fedora hostage. So let me clarify a bit where I stand: * If a sizable portion of the community agrees that split media are definitely useful and there is no viable alternative, then of course we should keep it! It is not my goal to overrun the community! * If split media support is needed in Anaconda anyway to support a multi-DVD Fedora (not Everything) spin (multi-DVD or lotsa-CD Everything spins being another thing Fedora does not officially produce and whose usefulness I doubt of – how many people actually use those spins? What advantage over only downloading what is actually needed?), then of course we should keep it! Requiring multiple DVDs can make the installation media less attractive, but it is also tough to decide what to axe, also considering there will almost certainly be people complaining about something getting removed (e.g. count on me to complain loudly if KDE was to be axed from the DVD, and I'm sure other SIGs will stand up for their packages as well). * But if split media turn out to be only needed for the Fedora Unity spins (i.e. IF the community decides that split media is NOT needed), the burden of maintaining it should be on them. If they want it in the official Anaconda (for the usual trademark reasons), they need to work with the Anaconda developers to make this a realistic proposition and not have all the work land on the Anaconda folks. Compose tools also have special support for split media, that also needs to be maintained. If Fedora Unity wants split media support in Fedora no matter what the community decides (and so far this seems to be their position), then I think accusing ME of being against the community is really bold of them. I hope this clears things up. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 01:01 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: The question is not *if* Fedora Unity would take on that burden, the question is whether upstream will let us. Upstream accepts reasonable patches. It happens all the time. Of course, what also happens all the time is multiple attempts to get the patches right and a lot of back and forth between the patch submitter and upstream, until consensus on the patch is reached. This also happens within the people with commit access. It's just like any other upstream. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 00:30 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: Your signature promotes freedom^2 but this pisses you off? The reasoning behind it is what irks me. It really seems to come down to I'm just going to do it so neener neener neener :p Whether or not it is a good idea to continue to produce them, you don't care, you're just going to do it anyway. Great way to run a project. If by this you mean my judgement is not influenced by whether *you* think it is or is not a good idea, then you are absolutely right. I honestly don't care whether or not it's influenced by what I think. I just wish you project put some thought and effort into discovering why people ask for or download split CDs other than just shutting off your brain at They asked for it. What users ask for is not always what they really want, often they just don't know of better alternatives. Instead of watching users gleefully bash a nail in using a round rock, you might instead teach them about a hammer and improve their life. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:11:11 -0700, Jesse Keating jkeat...@redhat.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 01:01 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: The question is not *if* Fedora Unity would take on that burden, the question is whether upstream will let us. Upstream accepts reasonable patches. It happens all the time. Of course, what also happens all the time is multiple attempts to get the patches right and a lot of back and forth between the patch submitter and upstream, until consensus on the patch is reached. This also happens within the people with commit access. It's just like any other upstream. Dear Jesse, you yourself do not accept patches beyond what you then, at that moment, think are applicable use-cases of Fedora Project Release Engineering only to work something up yourself two weeks later. We've also seen upstream reject very reasonable patches -that were in the upstream repo already, authored by @redhat.com of course- be cherry-picked to another branch for whatever reason I've offered to help with (some QA concerns for one). -Jeroen -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Please quit the nonsense, Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12? DO NOT VOTE for Kevin Kofler!
Please read my clarification in the thread: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-June/msg01389.html to see what I'm really up to. Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: Rock on, let this be an example of the leadership the community can expect if Kevin is elected. Hold the community hostage while ignoring the users needs. It's quite funny that you're using this word… Jesse Keating wrote this: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-June/msg01041.html | Just producing it, somebody will download it, because they know no | better, so having numbers that say somebody wanted it isn't enough in | my book, and right now, I feel that the anaconda, qa, releng teams are | being held hostage by Fedora Unity due to blanket claims of if Fedora | Project does not produce them Fedora Unity will. and I kinda have to agree with him. Would you also post a DO NOT VOTE for Jesse Keating! mail if he was running in these elections? I would think that working with the community would be a better approach. How is we will do split media even if the community decides they're not needed a way of working with the community? Listen, I do think that split media should be kept IF the community agrees that they're needed. But I DON'T think you can force the Anaconda developers to support them just because you (as in the Fedora Unity project) want to use them. Heck, I'm even OK with Fedora Unity doing CD sets if the consensus is that offering them under the Fedora umbrella is a bad idea, but offering them elsewhere is fine. I don't have anything against the Fedora Unity project. But we need to decide TOGETHER what is worth shipping and supporting. What is next? Will the anaconda team be mandated to not accept patches from the community and forced to remove any code for split media? No, they'll just not be mandated to keep supporting split media if nothing in Fedora needs them. But nobody will force them to drop the code. What if they want to continue supporting split media? Will you then suggest that Fedora Project start a new installer project? No. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:15:54 -0700, Jesse Keating jkeat...@redhat.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 00:30 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: Your signature promotes freedom^2 but this pisses you off? The reasoning behind it is what irks me. It really seems to come down to I'm just going to do it so neener neener neener :p Whether or not it is a good idea to continue to produce them, you don't care, you're just going to do it anyway. Great way to run a project. If by this you mean my judgement is not influenced by whether *you* think it is or is not a good idea, then you are absolutely right. I honestly don't care whether or not it's influenced by what I think. I just wish you project put some thought and effort into discovering why people ask for or download split CDs other than just shutting off your brain at They asked for it. What users ask for is not always what they really want, often they just don't know of better alternatives. Instead of watching users gleefully bash a nail in using a round rock, you might instead teach them about a hammer and improve their life. Rather then patronizing the users that come to us asking for CD media, saying they don't know what they want, we provide what they ask for. You think of that as a thoughtless process but then again I'm used to you saying things like that about me, I grew a thick skin over the years. If by better alternatives you mean net-install, please do realize not everyone has a network infrastructure or fast internet connection. If by better alternatives you mean LiveCDs, please note that these do not allow one to upgrade the existing Fedora installation, nor do they allow as much flexibility in configuration during the installation procedure. -Jeroen -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 01:37 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: Dear Jesse, you yourself do not accept patches beyond what you then, at that moment, think are applicable use-cases of Fedora Project Release Engineering only to work something up yourself two weeks later. Yes, if I didn't like the patch, or how it was done, I didn't accept it. Just like any other upstream. Did I use your exact code when I did it myself two weeks later? Probably not. We've also seen upstream reject very reasonable patches -that were in the upstream repo already, authored by @redhat.com of course- be cherry-picked to another branch for whatever reason I've offered to help with (some QA concerns for one). And they're well within their right, as an upstream project, to reject such things. Just because the patch works great on one branch doesn't mean it'll work the same on another. They are the ones to decide that. This is how opensource development works. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: We've also seen upstream reject very reasonable patches -that were in the upstream repo already, authored by @redhat.com of course- be cherry-picked to another branch for whatever reason I've offered to help with (some QA concerns for one). That's the other side of the problem. This Anaconda on release branches situation is a clear failure, something needs to be done about that (though I have the feeling that it has at least improved, there has at least been one Anaconda bugfix update in F9 and one in F10). Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On 6/16/09, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: Jesse Keating wrote: I honestly don't care whether or not it's influenced by what I think. I just wish you project put some thought and effort into discovering why people ask for or download split CDs other than just shutting off your brain at They asked for it. What users ask for is not always what they really want, often they just don't know of better alternatives. Instead of watching users gleefully bash a nail in using a round rock, you might instead teach them about a hammer and improve their life. +1 Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list +1 -Adam -- http://maxamillion.googlepages.com - () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Jesse Keating wrote: Yes, if I didn't like the patch, or how it was done, I didn't accept it. Just like any other upstream. Did I use your exact code when I did it myself two weeks later? Probably not. Speaking of rel-eng patches, what happened to my patch to the EVR checker to properly support testing repos (e.g. updates-testing, but the code is general enough to also work for things like RPM Fusion's or EPEL's testing repos)? http://repo.calcforge.org/f10/check-upgrade-paths.py.diff And they're well within their right, as an upstream project, to reject such things. Just because the patch works great on one branch doesn't mean it'll work the same on another. They are the ones to decide that. This is how opensource development works. But the thing is, in the cases kanarip is talking about, Fedora Unity tried it and it did work… :-) Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:48:07 -0700, Jesse Keating jkeat...@redhat.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 01:37 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: Dear Jesse, you yourself do not accept patches beyond what you then, at that moment, think are applicable use-cases of Fedora Project Release Engineering only to work something up yourself two weeks later. Yes, if I didn't like the patch, or how it was done, I didn't accept it. Just like any other upstream. Did I use your exact code when I did it myself two weeks later? Probably not. Oh no, you certainly did not. What I meant is that first you reject a patch because it's not within the scope of rel-eng and then two weeks later all of a sudden it *is* within the scope of rel-eng but you neglect the fact that a patch is in your mailbox somewhere. You did not say I don't like the patch or This should be done differently, you said this is not going to be in pungi because rel-eng has no use for it. We've also seen upstream reject very reasonable patches -that were in the upstream repo already, authored by @redhat.com of course- be cherry-picked to another branch for whatever reason I've offered to help with (some QA concerns for one). And they're well within their right, as an upstream project, to reject such things. Just because the patch works great on one branch doesn't mean it'll work the same on another. They are the ones to decide that. This is how opensource development works. Please do not put words in my mouth and please consider stopping to patronize me like that. I did not say they are not within their rights. I do say they are/were wrong to do so, and that is my opinion. I'm going to leave it at that or this is just going to have to become another thread. -Jeroen -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 02:05 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: Speaking of rel-eng patches, what happened to my patch to the EVR checker to properly support testing repos (e.g. updates-testing, but the code is general enough to also work for things like RPM Fusion's or EPEL's testing repos)? http://repo.calcforge.org/f10/check-upgrade-paths.py.diff I haven't really looked at it because the code the patch is for is likely to be obsoleted by the AutoQA project. I don't know what form of upgrade path checker we'll have within AutoQA. If I need to, I will look at the patch to make sure things go right within AutoQA. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 01:43 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: If by better alternatives you mean LiveCDs, please note that these do not allow one to upgrade the existing Fedora installation, nor do they allow as much flexibility in configuration during the installation procedure. Any upgrade process that doesn't take into account the released updates and/or any third party repos that have been added is just a failure. We often see situations where key things like yum stop working because the user updated too far in F10 before upgrading using the static F11 media, and having yum from F10 be newer than yum from the static F11 CDs and them boom. Same things happens with other packages too. Our development process, for better or worse, leaves users with a very difficult time upgrading unless they do online upgrades. As for flexibility, netinstall with a local repo fed by the DVD seems reasonable there for people that need that extra flexibility. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 02:38 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: User: I only have a CD-ROM, what do I do? Fedora: We know you wanted to install a different set of packages, but here's a LiveCD that you can then tweak after the installation, to get the packages you originally wanted. Ohw, and please mind you cannot 1) use a kickstart file to automate the installation or 2) upgrade the current Fedora installation. You might also not be able to customize the installation to it's full extent. I honestly don't see this as unreasonable for people on really legacy hardware. It's akin to what we do for people who insist upon text only installs. Something else not terribly unreasonable, instead of split CD media, a single CD offered that is netinst.iso plus the contents of @core and @base if it'll fit on a CD. Then they can do whatever custom install they want, and add packages after install, either from a DVD media or from a local mirror, or from the Internet. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:56:58 -0700, Jesse Keating jkeat...@redhat.com wrote: Something else not terribly unreasonable, instead of split CD media, a single CD offered that is netinst.iso plus the contents of @core and @base if it'll fit on a CD. Then they can do whatever custom install they want, and add packages after install, either from a DVD media or from a local mirror, or from the Internet. That's exactly what Fedora Unity is about to release for Fedora 11. -Jeroen -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: For as far as Fedora is concerned (not third party repositories) at least it seems obvious that our update process is somewhat flawed in this aspect, breaking the upgrade path. And that's why preupgrade exists. Any upgrading method not relying on the network will necessarily have this upgrade path issue. Fedora: We know you wanted to install a different set of packages, but here's a LiveCD that you can then tweak after the installation, to get the packages you originally wanted. Ohw, and please mind you cannot 1) use a kickstart file to automate the installation or 2) upgrade the current Fedora installation. There are other upgrade methods, e.g. preupgrade (or the unsupported methods to run yum upgrade directly on the system). If you don't have a fast enough network access for that, how do you install the regular updates? HD-based upgrades with the DVD image can also be used (you just need to make sure you create a small ext2/ext3/ext4 /images partition when you install the system, and you can then put your image along with the kernel and initrd from the pxeboot directory on that, enter it into GRUB and boot from it, no media needed at all, also saves money). For installs, I don't see how the live CDs are a bad idea, you start with a reasonable package set which just works and you can add what you need afterwards. You might also not be able to customize the installation to it's full extent. How so? Unwanted packages can always be removed. The only customization you can't do is the one big / partition, and that limitation might already be gone in F12 (we just need ext4 support in GRUB, assuming the live images won't switch to btrfs already). I definitely recommend the KDE Live CD as the medium to use for initial installs. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Adam Miller maxamill...@gmail.com wrote: Jesse Keating wrote: I honestly don't care whether or not it's influenced by what I think. I just wish you project put some thought and effort into discovering why people ask for or download split CDs other than just shutting off your brain at They asked for it. What users ask for is not always what they really want, often they just don't know of better alternatives. Instead of watching users gleefully bash a nail in using a round rock, you might instead teach them about a hammer and improve their life. +1 +1 It is too difficult to install with split media CDs anyway. We should have a KDE and Gnome install CD (like *buntu Alternative). Best A. Mani -- A. Mani ASL, CLC, AMS, CMS http://amani.topcities.com http://www.logicamani.co.cc -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:34:37 -0700, Jesse Keating jkeat...@redhat.com wrote: On Sun, 2009-06-14 at 17:54 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: If Fedora Unity's motivation to continue a service to the community -at it's own expense, not yours- is holding you and the other teams hostage, call S.W.A.T. If it was just Fedora Unity's expense that'd be one thing. But it's not. Upstream anaconda is still going to have to deal with split media bugs and code. Compose tools are still going to have to handle split media cases (createrepo being a notable one). QA is still going to have to test this install method or else be faced with scrambling to fix stuff when Fedora Unity goes to make them. That's not what happened during the Fedora 7 and Fedora 8 release cycles. I really don't mind making split media, if there is a real hard need for it. I wish that Fedora Unity would do the legwork to ensure there really is a need for split CDs that isn't being met by our other offerings before claiming that split CDs are a hard need. Fedora Unity is not going to do the legwork to ensure you continue to make split media. Somebody else is going to need to figure out whether it is worthy of the corporate resources being spent at it. Like I said before, Fedora Unity can do it, has a proven track record showing to be able to do it and, if the Fedora Project decides to not ship split media anymore, will do it, regardless of how valuable you or anyone else outside Fedora Unity thinks it is. The question is however, how well is the Fedora Project willing to let us cooperate within and through the Fedora Project? Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:20:09 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen kana...@kanarip.com wrote: On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 08:37:41 -0700, Jesse Keating jkeat...@redhat.com wrote: On Sun, 2009-06-14 at 03:30 -0500, King InuYasha wrote: A script that takes the DVD image to produce the CD versions would basically require extracting the whole DVD image and then generating new ISOs from that tree. Maybe mirrors could do it if you want to save space on the main server or whatever. That only serves to complicate matters for the users. Good chunks of our users have a hard enough time figuring out what to download, how to burn it, and how to install it. Adding in some weird script to take a DVD.iso file and split it into many smaller files isn't going to help matters, and certainly doesn't improve things for anaconda/qa/releng. This to me sounds like there's two separate problems; 1) Users might not know what to download 2) We might put resources into something that isn't used as much as we would have hoped. I'm not sure whether one single solution is appropriate for both problems. Looking at a potential cause for the discrepancy in the numbers; Look at how we offer CDs at http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora I can't find them linked directly anywhere as opposed to the DVD which is directly linked from the main page. There's one explanation for the higher DVD download numbers... Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Jeremy Katz pisze: On Saturday, June 13 2009, Jussi Lehtola said: On Sat, 2009-06-13 at 11:12 -0500, Matt Domsch wrote: On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 07:04:12PM +0300, Jussi Lehtola wrote: Hmm, I'd want netboot.img back, since I normally use a USB stick to start the network install (OK, there is the possibility of using livecd-iso-to-disk, but that's a lot more hassle than downloading a minimalistic img and running dd). We have it, it's now called netinst.iso Yes but not netboot.img that could be dd'd straight away to a USB drive or whatnot; the iso needs livecd-iso-to-disk which a) is extra work and b) is only available on Fedora and Windows. [Also, the livecd tools need an own homepage so that users of other distros can get them.] We really need to finish the push in F12 to get liveusb-creator working for all cases (including command line) so that we can kick the silly shell script to the curb as liveusb-creator has its own homepage, etc. Also, I want to look a bit more at isohybrid to see if we can build iso images that can just be dd'd, at least for the case of boot.iso/netinst.iso What's the difference between these two by the way? Jeremy Cheers, Julian -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sunday, June 14 2009, Chris Adams said: Once upon a time, Jeremy Katz ka...@redhat.com said: See the livecd-iso-to-pxeboot script, although it does place some (somewhat) different requirements on things. AFAIK livecd-iso-to-pxeboot is useless for 32 bit, at least for the standard Fedora LiveCD images. I think the kernel will only use an initrd that is less than half the size of lowmem, or 448M. To be honest, I'm not sure. I've never actually used the script -- it was written by some of the guys working on the project now known as ovirt and they use it pretty heavily It would be useful to be able to export the root FS from a LiveCD via NFS, or maybe have an alternate initrd for PXE booting that could NFS mount the ISO image (and then the LiveCD root), or fetch the ISO into RAM via HTTP, or something along those lines. With the way we build the initrd today, there's no way[1] to do so. But as I said in my previous mail, with dracut maybe we can start to look at other interesting things like this Jeremy [1] Well, there's a way... but not anything sustainable. Having multiple completely separate initrd paths is all kinds of pain -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Mon, 2009-06-15 at 12:18 +0200, Julian Sikorski wrote: boot.iso/netinst.iso What's the difference between these two by the way? There isn't one. However old virt-manager tools look for a boot.iso instead of a netinst.iso, so when we tried to rename this iso to match reality (it has stage 2 on it, it's not just a boot iso) we broke things. So we keep the compatible name in the images/ directory but call it by what it really is in the iso/ directory. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Mon, 2009-06-15 at 08:04 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: Fedora Project decides to not ship split media anymore, will do it, regardless of how valuable you or anyone else outside Fedora Unity thinks it is. And this is what pisses me off, and why I say you're holding us hostage. Whether or not it is a good idea to continue to produce them, you don't care, you're just going to do it anyway. Great way to run a project. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 10:30:49AM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: On Sun, 2009-06-14 at 21:31 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: Also, I want to look a bit more at isohybrid to see if we can build iso images that can just be dd'd, at least for the case of boot.iso/netinst.iso Can you tell me more about isohybrid, or link to a project page? Google wasn't exactly helpful. It's a new feature of syslinux which modifies a mkisofs-generated bootable ISO (which uses isolinux), such that it also adds a syslinux boot record. The resulting .iso file can be burned to a CD and booted, or written straight to a USB key (dd if=...) and booted. -- Matt Domsch Technology Strategist, Dell Office of the CTO linux.dell.com www.dell.com/linux -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
- Jesse Keating jkeat...@redhat.com wrote: And this is what pisses me off, and why I say you're holding us hostage. Whether or not it is a good idea to continue to produce them, you don't care, you're just going to do it anyway. Great way to run a project. Jesse, Both Fedora Project and Fedora Unity have users that want, need or download in error CD media. The simple difference in the future of CD media is that we, Fedora Unity, are choosing to not remove the users freedom of choice. Giving users freedom of choice is how we run our project. We have faith that Fedora Project will do what it feels is best for it's contributors and resources. Independent of what Fedora Project does we also will do what we feel is best for our users and also keep in mind our resources. No one should feel they are being held hostage. Without the hard work Fedora Project puts in to a release and the subsequent updates Fedora Unity could not produce any media. I feel it is in our best interest to work together to resolve issues, I have always felt this way, unfortunately history has shown that this is not often possible. I keep hoping it will someday happen. - Bob | Robert 'Bob' Jensen|| Fedora Unity Founder | | b...@fedoraunity.org|| http://fedoraunity.org/ | | http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ | |http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen| -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Bradley Baetz bba...@gmail.com wrote: On 14/06/09 04:53, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: - Frank Murphyfrankl...@gmail.com wrote: Just curious. But if a user has bandwidth problems, how is\are mutiple CD's going to help, or is it purely on hardware grounds, no dvd-rom. Does no one remember what happened last time the CD ball was dropped? Lets not repeat history just for fun. We have been down this road before, it was ugly and only lasted one release. Torrent tracker numbers BTW do not always tell the truth. In many cases in these less fortunate areas one person will download the ISO images, then make CDs for any one in the surrounding villages. Sneakernet is alive and well. I asked about this topic a few minutes ago in the #fedora-social IRC channel because we seemed to have a pretty diverse mix of people chatting. There was a resounding response that the CDs need to be kept. What about a script that takes the DVD image and produces CD .isos? That saves on mirror space, but still allows people who want/need CDs to make them. Although it would require (temporarily) 2-3 times the disk space for that process, I guess. Bradley A script that takes the DVD image to produce the CD versions would basically require extracting the whole DVD image and then generating new ISOs from that tree. Maybe mirrors could do it if you want to save space on the main server or whatever. Also, maybe we should support PXE/network booting the Live version from mirrors or whatever with the advent of netbooks and other computers without an optical drive. While doing it via USB is preferable, it is not always possible. For example I have a laptop with a completely damaged drive bay where the CD drive is and it does not support booting from USB devices. Being able to boot the Live distro from a network would be a great alternative. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On 14/06/09 04:47, Jesse Keating wrote: Don't be clouded by who is requesting it. Releng qa anaconda et al would love to stop doing split cds. Less confusion on what to download would be appreciated by many too. We are one of the last distros to still do cd media outside of live media. Is this a case of users not knowing there are better choices than split CDs? Research into those demanding splits should be done and documented by those eager to continue seeing them produced. A thought. Maybe put this to the various Ambassador groupings. EMEA, APAC. etc. Find out from the locals, what it's like on the ground. If it comes back that Area X,Y. are the main splitters. For HW,BW reasons, whatever. Ask them do a poll in their localities, schools, workplaces. They are best placed. Just worried about any negative karma. *Fedora dumps on xyz* Frank -- jabber | msn | google-talk | skype: frankly3d (Skype will be scrapped 1st July 2009) http://www.frankly3d.com Mailing-List Reply to: Mailing-List -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Jun 14, 2009, at 1:30, King InuYasha ngomp...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Bradley Baetz bba...@gmail.com wrote: On 14/06/09 04:53, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: - Frank Murphyfrankl...@gmail.com wrote: Just curious. But if a user has bandwidth problems, how is\are mutiple CD's going to help, or is it purely on hardware grounds, no dvd-rom. Does no one remember what happened last time the CD ball was dropped? Lets not repeat history just for fun. We have been down this road before, it was ugly and only lasted one release. Torrent tracker numbers BTW do not always tell the truth. In many cases in these less fortunate areas one person will download the ISO images, then make CDs for any one in the surrounding villages. Sneakernet is alive and well. I asked about this topic a few minutes ago in the #fedora-social IRC channel because we seemed to have a pretty diverse mix of people chatting. There was a resounding response that the CDs need to be kept. What about a script that takes the DVD image and produces CD .isos? That saves on mirror space, but still allows people who want/need CDs to make them. Although it would require (temporarily) 2-3 times the disk space for that process, I guess. Bradley A script that takes the DVD image to produce the CD versions would basically require extracting the whole DVD image and then generating new ISOs from that tree. Maybe mirrors could do it if you want to save space on the main server or whatever. Also, maybe we should support PXE/network booting the Live version from mirrors or whatever with the advent of netbooks and other computers without an optical drive. While doing it via USB is preferable, it is not always possible. For example I have a laptop with a completely damaged drive bay where the CD drive is and it does not support booting from USB devices. Being able to boot the Live distro from a network would be a great alternative. Why the live and not the normal install via pxe? -- Jes-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
- King InuYasha ngomp...@gmail.com wrote: A script that takes the DVD image to produce the CD versions would basically require extracting the whole DVD image and then generating new ISOs from that tree. Maybe mirrors could do it if you want to save space on the main server or whatever. I think Bradley was suggesting something that the user could use to create CDs from an expanded DVD. I believe that revisor can do this pretty easily for users that already have an existing Fedora or EL install, kanarip will be speaking up on this I hope now that he is home. - Bob | Robert 'Bob' Jensen|| Fedora Unity Founder | | b...@fedoraunity.org|| http://fedoraunity.org/ | | http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ | |http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen| -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sun, 2009-06-14 at 14:53 +, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: I appreciate the clarification from you and Matt on the request. As you know Jesse my, and Unity's, goal has been for a while has been to get Fedora in to the hands of as many people as possible with the least amount of pain. That is why we make the Re-Spins, it was why we made the original Live media. I know and understand the extra man hours required to properly test all the different varieties of media. As I said Unity will produce CDs for those that need/want them should RE or whoever decides that it is impractical for Fedora Project to continue producing them. Another compromise I am sure that would work for us is if you produced them, handed them off to us for testing and distribution. My (mostly unfounded) worry is that Fedora Unity is reacting to requests without investigating the reasoning behind the request. Think of this as the Henry Ford problem. If all Henry Ford did was produce what his customers asked for, all we'd have right now is fast horses. What we need to be doing is investigating why these people think they need split CDs, to be certain that there is no other offering within the Fedora universe that satisfies their needs. Just producing it, somebody will download it, because they know no better, so having numbers that say somebody wanted it isn't enough in my book, and right now, I feel that the anaconda, qa, releng teams are being held hostage by Fedora Unity due to blanket claims of if Fedora Project does not produce them Fedora Unity will. Looking around the competition: Ubuntu - Live CD or DVD Mandriva - DVD, Live CD, or purchasable flash stick OpenSuSE - DVD, Live CD, or netinstall iso Gentoo - Single CD or Live image. Mostly set to network install Debian - 31 CDs or 5 DVDs Slackware - 6 CDs or a DVD So it seems only Debian and Slackware still dabble in split CDs, everyone else has moved on to either a Live image, or a minimal install iso that sets you up for network install. We have both of those, a plethora of Live images to choose from as well as a netinst.iso that sets you up for a network install, and we have our DVD image. Is that truly not enough? -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sun, 2009-06-14 at 03:30 -0500, King InuYasha wrote: A script that takes the DVD image to produce the CD versions would basically require extracting the whole DVD image and then generating new ISOs from that tree. Maybe mirrors could do it if you want to save space on the main server or whatever. That only serves to complicate matters for the users. Good chunks of our users have a hard enough time figuring out what to download, how to burn it, and how to install it. Adding in some weird script to take a DVD.iso file and split it into many smaller files isn't going to help matters, and certainly doesn't improve things for anaconda/qa/releng. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:34:19 +, Jesse Keating jkeat...@redhat.com wrote: On Sun, 2009-06-14 at 14:53 +, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: I appreciate the clarification from you and Matt on the request. As you know Jesse my, and Unity's, goal has been for a while has been to get Fedora in to the hands of as many people as possible with the least amount of pain. That is why we make the Re-Spins, it was why we made the original Live media. I know and understand the extra man hours required to properly test all the different varieties of media. As I said Unity will produce CDs for those that need/want them should RE or whoever decides that it is impractical for Fedora Project to continue producing them. Another compromise I am sure that would work for us is if you produced them, handed them off to us for testing and distribution. My (mostly unfounded) worry is that Fedora Unity is reacting to requests without investigating the reasoning behind the request. Think of this as the Henry Ford problem. If all Henry Ford did was produce what his customers asked for, all we'd have right now is fast horses. What we need to be doing is investigating why these people think they need split CDs, to be certain that there is no other offering within the Fedora universe that satisfies their needs. Just producing it, somebody will download it, because they know no better, so having numbers that say somebody wanted it isn't enough in my book, and right now, I feel that the anaconda, qa, releng teams are being held hostage by Fedora Unity due to blanket claims of if Fedora Project does not produce them Fedora Unity will. If Fedora Unity's motivation to continue a service to the community -at it's own expense, not yours- is holding you and the other teams hostage, call S.W.A.T. -Jeroen -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 08:37:41 -0700, Jesse Keating jkeat...@redhat.com wrote: On Sun, 2009-06-14 at 03:30 -0500, King InuYasha wrote: A script that takes the DVD image to produce the CD versions would basically require extracting the whole DVD image and then generating new ISOs from that tree. Maybe mirrors could do it if you want to save space on the main server or whatever. That only serves to complicate matters for the users. Good chunks of our users have a hard enough time figuring out what to download, how to burn it, and how to install it. Adding in some weird script to take a DVD.iso file and split it into many smaller files isn't going to help matters, and certainly doesn't improve things for anaconda/qa/releng. This to me sounds like there's two separate problems; 1) Users might not know what to download 2) We might put resources into something that isn't used as much as we would have hoped. I'm not sure whether one single solution is appropriate for both problems. I'm also not sure the numbers that Matt has are reflecting the actual foot-print of users that require CD media, as our numbers show things differently[1]. Regrettably, we have no numbers on the Jigdo releases. I know Matt's numbers are accurate, but put in context, isn't this only redirect links such as http://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/releases/11/Fedora/iso/disc1.iso like shown on http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora/ ? Are we not missing out on *a lot* of downloading users that navigate to their mirror of preference directly? For Fedora Unity, this is considered a service to those in the community that need it. It's most definitely not considered the most efficient balance between corporate resource investments and user satisfaction. Whether it be 3 or a million smiles we get in return for doing split media, I don't care. Split media will continue to exist anyway; I release split dual-layer DVD images with the Everything Spin. Whether as such Fedora Unity is putting the pressure on the people that would rather drop the split media, I don't know. All I'm saying is that if the Fedora Project won't, we will. We've been down that path before and we all know it's pretty painless[2]. If the Fedora Project considers to no longer release split CD media, would the Fedora Project then also consider allowing Fedora Unity (members) to continue servicing those that request or even require split CD media? If that is too much to ask from a anaconda/qa/releng perspective, would the Fedora Project maybe consider finally allowing those from Fedora Unity that do it anyway, to do it *via* the Fedora Project? Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip [1] http://spinner.fedoraunity.org:6969 [2] If not, please show me where it isn't. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:58:36 + (UTC), Robert 'Bob' Jensen b...@fedoraunity.org wrote: - King InuYasha ngomp...@gmail.com wrote: A script that takes the DVD image to produce the CD versions would basically require extracting the whole DVD image and then generating new ISOs from that tree. Maybe mirrors could do it if you want to save space on the main server or whatever. I think Bradley was suggesting something that the user could use to create CDs from an expanded DVD. I believe that revisor can do this pretty easily for users that already have an existing Fedora or EL install, kanarip will be speaking up on this I hope now that he is home. Revisor can do this very easily, but it's a hidden feature (not exposed in the GUI, barely documented, blabla) It's called --reuse, which allows you to not rebuild the installer images, but instead reuse existing installer images. You would point it at a mounted DVD, configure a repository pointing to the DVD, and voila, you can do anything you like with it. This is what I use to create the Everything spins too; I just change the package payload, but do not change the installer images. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sun, 2009-06-14 at 17:54 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: If Fedora Unity's motivation to continue a service to the community -at it's own expense, not yours- is holding you and the other teams hostage, call S.W.A.T. If it was just Fedora Unity's expense that'd be one thing. But it's not. Upstream anaconda is still going to have to deal with split media bugs and code. Compose tools are still going to have to handle split media cases (createrepo being a notable one). QA is still going to have to test this install method or else be faced with scrambling to fix stuff when Fedora Unity goes to make them. I really don't mind making split media, if there is a real hard need for it. I wish that Fedora Unity would do the legwork to ensure there really is a need for split CDs that isn't being met by our other offerings before claiming that split CDs are a hard need. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sun, 2009-06-14 at 18:20 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: If the Fedora Project considers to no longer release split CD media, would the Fedora Project then also consider allowing Fedora Unity (members) to continue servicing those that request or even require split CD media? If that is too much to ask from a anaconda/qa/releng perspective, would the Fedora Project maybe consider finally allowing those from Fedora Unity that do it anyway, to do it *via* the Fedora Project? If there are those that require split media, I'd much prefer that we as a project produce and test the split media as part of our normal development cycle, and not do it as some after thought after it's too late to fix any problems found. However I'd like to see some evidence as to the requirement. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Once upon a time, Jesse Keating jkeat...@redhat.com said: If there are those that require split media, I'd much prefer that we as a project produce and test the split media as part of our normal development cycle, and not do it as some after thought after it's too late to fix any problems found. I agree with all of that. I just wanted to ask: have you considered just making split media for 32-bit x86? Is there really any demand for x86_64 and ppc split media? I know that wouldn't remove the anaconda support, but it would reduce some of the QA, time taken to build and distribute, disk space, etc. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Jesse Keating jkeat...@j2solutions.netwrote: On Jun 14, 2009, at 1:30, King InuYasha ngomp...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Bradley Baetz bba...@gmail.com bba...@gmail.com wrote: On 14/06/09 04:53, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: - Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.comfrankl...@gmail.com wrote: Just curious. But if a user has bandwidth problems, how is\are mutiple CD's going to help, or is it purely on hardware grounds, no dvd-rom. Does no one remember what happened last time the CD ball was dropped? Lets not repeat history just for fun. We have been down this road before, it was ugly and only lasted one release. Torrent tracker numbers BTW do not always tell the truth. In many cases in these less fortunate areas one person will download the ISO images, then make CDs for any one in the surrounding villages. Sneakernet is alive and well. I asked about this topic a few minutes ago in the #fedora-social IRC channel because we seemed to have a pretty diverse mix of people chatting. There was a resounding response that the CDs need to be kept. What about a script that takes the DVD image and produces CD .isos? That saves on mirror space, but still allows people who want/need CDs to make them. Although it would require (temporarily) 2-3 times the disk space for that process, I guess. Bradley A script that takes the DVD image to produce the CD versions would basically require extracting the whole DVD image and then generating new ISOs from that tree. Maybe mirrors could do it if you want to save space on the main server or whatever. Also, maybe we should support PXE/network booting the Live version from mirrors or whatever with the advent of netbooks and other computers without an optical drive. While doing it via USB is preferable, it is not always possible. For example I have a laptop with a completely damaged drive bay where the CD drive is and it does not support booting from USB devices. Being able to boot the Live distro from a network would be a great alternative. Why the live and not the normal install via pxe? -- Jes It's more useful, and its smaller. Being able to use the live version through a network would make it easier for remote or thin client setup, where you don't want the state of the OS to change in any form of permanence. For example, loading the live image without persistence to older machines and when client users are done and shutdown the machine, nothing is saved. No viruses, documents, personal information, etc. Additionally, diagnosing issues with machines using PXE live would be much nicer than using DOS disks or the Windows recovery console, which is practically useless. Or even diagnosing issues with installed versions of Linux or BSD. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Saturday, June 13 2009, Jussi Lehtola said: On Sat, 2009-06-13 at 11:12 -0500, Matt Domsch wrote: On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 07:04:12PM +0300, Jussi Lehtola wrote: Hmm, I'd want netboot.img back, since I normally use a USB stick to start the network install (OK, there is the possibility of using livecd-iso-to-disk, but that's a lot more hassle than downloading a minimalistic img and running dd). We have it, it's now called netinst.iso Yes but not netboot.img that could be dd'd straight away to a USB drive or whatnot; the iso needs livecd-iso-to-disk which a) is extra work and b) is only available on Fedora and Windows. [Also, the livecd tools need an own homepage so that users of other distros can get them.] We really need to finish the push in F12 to get liveusb-creator working for all cases (including command line) so that we can kick the silly shell script to the curb as liveusb-creator has its own homepage, etc. Also, I want to look a bit more at isohybrid to see if we can build iso images that can just be dd'd, at least for the case of boot.iso/netinst.iso Jeremy -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sunday, June 14 2009, King InuYasha said: Also, maybe we should support PXE/network booting the Live version from mirrors or whatever with the advent of netbooks and other computers without an optical drive. While doing it via USB is preferable, it is not always possible. For example I have a laptop with a completely damaged drive bay where the CD drive is and it does not support booting from USB devices. Being able to boot the Live distro from a network would be a great alternative. See the livecd-iso-to-pxeboot script, although it does place some (somewhat) different requirements on things. If we can get dracut in for F12, we might be able to be more clever with netboot + live images Jeremy -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Once upon a time, Jeremy Katz ka...@redhat.com said: See the livecd-iso-to-pxeboot script, although it does place some (somewhat) different requirements on things. AFAIK livecd-iso-to-pxeboot is useless for 32 bit, at least for the standard Fedora LiveCD images. I think the kernel will only use an initrd that is less than half the size of lowmem, or 448M. It would be useful to be able to export the root FS from a LiveCD via NFS, or maybe have an alternate initrd for PXE booting that could NFS mount the ISO image (and then the LiveCD root), or fetch the ISO into RAM via HTTP, or something along those lines. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sat, 2009-06-13 at 08:46 -0500, Matt Domsch wrote: (Reposting to f-d-l from my blog post last night. http://domsch.com/blog/?p=85 includes a couple nice graphs to help illustrate.) CDs are Dead. Long live CDs. I was running some stats on the Fedora 11 release, and an interesting thing caught my eye. Very few people are downloading the six (or in the case of PPC, seven) CDs to perform a Fedora install. Very Very few. In fact, at most, six people downloaded split media CDs using the Fedora mirror servers in the first few days. I find that hard to believe, unless you mean via. MirrorManager? I know I downloaded all six CD isos directly from the kernel.org mirror, within a few hours of GA. For previous releases I'd tended to use the torrent, to get them all, as it was somewhat easier (but slower). This in contrast to the over 234,000 direct downloads of DVDs and LiveCDs in the same amount of time. BitTorrent statistics are a little better for CDs: 908 completed downloads of the split media CDs, out of 41,235 total downloads (or ~2.2 %). These are believable, but I'd still put money on the fact that more than 2.2% of users use CDs ... one of my machines here is an x86_64 Dell box, about 2 years old. And only has a CD drive. Now, sure, I normally only burn CD 1 ... and then use an exploded http install for anaconda. So I could probably make DVD only work, but it's much easier to just get the CDs. I'm also pretty sure my current laptop is DVD RO, but CD RW. -- James Antill ja...@fedoraproject.org Fedora -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 01:09:52AM -0400, James Antill wrote: On Sat, 2009-06-13 at 08:46 -0500, Matt Domsch wrote: (Reposting to f-d-l from my blog post last night. http://domsch.com/blog/?p=85 includes a couple nice graphs to help illustrate.) CDs are Dead. Long live CDs. I was running some stats on the Fedora 11 release, and an interesting thing caught my eye. Very few people are downloading the six (or in the case of PPC, seven) CDs to perform a Fedora install. Very Very few. In fact, at most, six people downloaded split media CDs using the Fedora mirror servers in the first few days. I find that hard to believe, unless you mean via. MirrorManager? I know I downloaded all six CD isos directly from the kernel.org mirror, within a few hours of GA. For previous releases I'd tended to use the torrent, to get them all, as it was somewhat easier (but slower). Right, I have no way to get the stats from each individual mirror, public or private. This was just looking at the clicks through mirrors.fp.o/download.fp.o. This in contrast to the over 234,000 direct downloads of DVDs and LiveCDs in the same amount of time. BitTorrent statistics are a little better for CDs: 908 completed downloads of the split media CDs, out of 41,235 total downloads (or ~2.2 %). These are believable, but I'd still put money on the fact that more than 2.2% of users use CDs ... one of my machines here is an x86_64 Dell box, about 2 years old. And only has a CD drive. Now, sure, I normally only burn CD 1 ... and then use an exploded http install for anaconda. So I could probably make DVD only work, but it's much easier to just get the CDs. In this case, the netinst.iso (157MB) would suffice, right? No one is proposing removing that. I'm not saying get rid of all CDs. Clearly the netinst.iso and LiveCDs would remain under any circumstance. -- Matt Domsch Technology Strategist, Dell Office of the CTO linux.dell.com www.dell.com/linux -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Mon, 2009-06-15 at 00:24 -0500, Matt Domsch wrote: On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 01:09:52AM -0400, James Antill wrote: On Sat, 2009-06-13 at 08:46 -0500, Matt Domsch wrote: (Reposting to f-d-l from my blog post last night. http://domsch.com/blog/?p=85 includes a couple nice graphs to help illustrate.) These are believable, but I'd still put money on the fact that more than 2.2% of users use CDs ... one of my machines here is an x86_64 Dell box, about 2 years old. And only has a CD drive. Now, sure, I normally only burn CD 1 ... and then use an exploded http install for anaconda. So I could probably make DVD only work, but it's much easier to just get the CDs. In this case, the netinst.iso (157MB) would suffice, right? No one is proposing removing that. Actually, your idea is perfect. For almost all cases I can come up with, the netinst disk is fine (and, incidentally, it's all I use other than the DVD install images anyway - especially within VMs). The only counterpoint I came up with was that of folks in parts of the world who don't have access to modern hardware and don't have broadband. You might argue they could be supplied with CDs, but that presupposes that they actually will be, vs. getting Fedora via a Live CD or something else. I think the latter is far more likely now. I'm not saying get rid of all CDs. Clearly the netinst.iso and LiveCDs would remain under any circumstance. +1 Jon. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On 06/15/2009 11:15 AM, Jon Masters wrote: The only counterpoint I came up with was that of folks in parts of the world who don't have access to modern hardware and don't have broadband. Yes but they prefer Live CD or regular DVD images usually. Magazines tend to distribute DVD image. Conferences - Live CD's. Rahul -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Do we need split media CDs for F12?
(Reposting to f-d-l from my blog post last night. http://domsch.com/blog/?p=85 includes a couple nice graphs to help illustrate.) CDs are Dead. Long live CDs. I was running some stats on the Fedora 11 release, and an interesting thing caught my eye. Very few people are downloading the six (or in the case of PPC, seven) CDs to perform a Fedora install. Very Very few. In fact, at most, six people downloaded split media CDs using the Fedora mirror servers in the first few days. This in contrast to the over 234,000 direct downloads of DVDs and LiveCDs in the same amount of time. BitTorrent statistics are a little better for CDs: 908 completed downloads of the split media CDs, out of 41,235 total downloads (or ~2.2 %). Which leads to the question, Do we really need split media CDs for Fedora 12? A few more points lend credence to this idea. Looking only at the BitTorrent stats for Fedora 9, 10, and now 11, we see an interesting trend. Figure 1 shows that the interest in split media CDs has been decreasing over the past year. Figure 1 shows % of bittorrent downloads that were the split CD set, by version. F9: 6.32%. F10 4.58% F11 so far: 2.2%. I have a suspicion. As the number of x86_64 users grows, it's more likely that x86_64 systems will have DVD readers as opposed to older CD readers. Figure 2 shows the growth of x86_64 vs x86 over the past year, again extracted from BitTorrent statistics. Figure 2 shows x86 vs x86_64 bittorrent downloads. ArchF9 F10 F11 x86 72.99 63.55 57.52 X86_64 27.01 36.45 42.48 The entire Fedora 11 release as sent to the mirrors is ~143GB. Of that, CD and DVD ISOs represent ~34GB; the split media CD ISOs represent ~15.5GB of that. As most of the rest of that 143GB is all hardlinked, we're really only transferring out all these ISO files. 10% of the disk space, and 45% of the time/bandwidth needed to get a release out to the mirrors, for about 2% of the user base, and declining. CDs had their place, back when DVD readers weren't commonplace, and before we had LiveCD/LiveUSB medias. Now, DVDs are fairly common, the LiveCDs work great for a lot of installs, and we have both a small (158MB) network-based bootable CD installer for new installs that would require a CD, and preupgrade for upgrading from an older distro version to the next. Let's kill off split media CDs for Fedora 12. Your thoughts? Thanks, Matt -- Matt Domsch Technology Strategist, Dell Office of the CTO linux.dell.com www.dell.com/linux -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sat, 2009-06-13 at 08:46 -0500, Matt Domsch wrote: Your thoughts? If we don't do split CDs, Fedora Unity is likely to do them. If we don't produce and test split media as part of our beta/release cycle, we'll likely not find bugs with their usage until after the release is made and Fedora Unity attempts to make them. As long as /somebody/ within the Fedora project is going to create them and offer them to our users it is in our best interest to create them as part of our normal development cycle and iron out all the bugs before users attempt to use them. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sat, 2009-06-13 at 09:34 -0500, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Matt Domsch matt_dom...@dell.com said: CDs had their place, back when DVD readers weren't commonplace, and before we had LiveCD/LiveUSB medias. Now, DVDs are fairly common, the LiveCDs work great for a lot of installs, and we have both a small (158MB) network-based bootable CD installer for new installs that would require a CD, and preupgrade for upgrading from an older distro version to the next. Let's kill off split media CDs for Fedora 12. Your thoughts? Sounds good to me. Keep the LiveCDs and netboot CD and remove the other CD images. Hmm, I'd want netboot.img back, since I normally use a USB stick to start the network install (OK, there is the possibility of using livecd-iso-to-disk, but that's a lot more hassle than downloading a minimalistic img and running dd). -- Jussi Lehtola Fedora Project Contributor jussileht...@fedoraproject.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 07:04:12PM +0300, Jussi Lehtola wrote: On Sat, 2009-06-13 at 09:34 -0500, Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Matt Domsch matt_dom...@dell.com said: CDs had their place, back when DVD readers weren't commonplace, and before we had LiveCD/LiveUSB medias. Now, DVDs are fairly common, the LiveCDs work great for a lot of installs, and we have both a small (158MB) network-based bootable CD installer for new installs that would require a CD, and preupgrade for upgrading from an older distro version to the next. Let's kill off split media CDs for Fedora 12. Your thoughts? Sounds good to me. Keep the LiveCDs and netboot CD and remove the other CD images. Hmm, I'd want netboot.img back, since I normally use a USB stick to start the network install (OK, there is the possibility of using livecd-iso-to-disk, but that's a lot more hassle than downloading a minimalistic img and running dd). We have it, it's now called netinst.iso http://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/releases/11/Fedora/i386/iso/Fedora-11-i386-netinst.iso (and other architectures too). -- Matt Domsch Technology Strategist, Dell Office of the CTO linux.dell.com www.dell.com/linux -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Jesse Keating jkeat...@redhat.com writes: On Sat, 2009-06-13 at 08:46 -0500, Matt Domsch wrote: Your thoughts? If we don't do split CDs, Fedora Unity is likely to do them. Are we sure about that? The reasons not to bother would be just as strong for Unity, no? If we don't produce and test split media as part of our beta/release cycle, we'll likely not find bugs with their usage until after the release is made and Fedora Unity attempts to make them. As long as /somebody/ within the Fedora project is going to create them and offer them to our users it is in our best interest to create them as part of our normal development cycle and iron out all the bugs before users attempt to use them. I agree with that chain of reasoning, but am not convinced of the starting premise. regards, tom lane -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
- Tom Lane t...@redhat.com wrote: Are we sure about that? The reasons not to bother would be just as strong for Unity, no? I agree with that chain of reasoning, but am not convinced of the starting premise. OK lets remove any doubt, if Fedora Project does not produce them Fedora Unity will if at all possible. The last time the CD media was dropped the crys and screams of terror from the third world that have never seen a DVD rom were considerable. If CD media was dropped I would say go half way, drop it for x86_64, people installing on 64 bit capable hardware are probably going to have a DVD rom. Those installing i?86 really might not. - Bob | Robert 'Bob' Jensen|| Fedora Unity Founder | | b...@fedoraunity.org|| http://fedoraunity.org/ | | http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ | |http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen| -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sat, 2009-06-13 at 11:12 -0500, Matt Domsch wrote: On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 07:04:12PM +0300, Jussi Lehtola wrote: Hmm, I'd want netboot.img back, since I normally use a USB stick to start the network install (OK, there is the possibility of using livecd-iso-to-disk, but that's a lot more hassle than downloading a minimalistic img and running dd). We have it, it's now called netinst.iso Yes but not netboot.img that could be dd'd straight away to a USB drive or whatnot; the iso needs livecd-iso-to-disk which a) is extra work and b) is only available on Fedora and Windows. [Also, the livecd tools need an own homepage so that users of other distros can get them.] -- Jussi Lehtola Fedora Project Contributor jussileht...@fedoraproject.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Robert 'Bob' Jensenb...@fedoraunity.org wrote: OK lets remove any doubt, if Fedora Project does not produce them Fedora Unity will if at all possible. The last time the CD media was dropped the crys and screams of terror from the third world that have never seen a DVD rom were considerable. If CD media was dropped I would say go half way, drop it for x86_64, people installing on 64 bit capable hardware are probably going to have a DVD rom. Those installing i?86 really might not. I think you are right about x86_64 probably is going to have a DVD Rom, I only have needed the CDs when installing i386 servers isolated from the internet. I think we should start considering the option to ship the net install ISO as a hard disk image to be used for USB boot, I frequently install systems without optical media and that conversion step (ISO to HD) is not intuitive for all users -- Robert Marcano -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
the user's still able to install using netboot.iso. On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Robert 'Bob' Jensenb...@fedoraunity.org wrote: - Tom Lane t...@redhat.com wrote: Are we sure about that? The reasons not to bother would be just as strong for Unity, no? I agree with that chain of reasoning, but am not convinced of the starting premise. OK lets remove any doubt, if Fedora Project does not produce them Fedora Unity will if at all possible. The last time the CD media was dropped the crys and screams of terror from the third world that have never seen a DVD rom were considerable. If CD media was dropped I would say go half way, drop it for x86_64, people installing on 64 bit capable hardware are probably going to have a DVD rom. Those installing i?86 really might not. - Bob | Robert 'Bob' Jensen || Fedora Unity Founder | | b...@fedoraunity.org || http://fedoraunity.org/ | | http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ | | http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen | -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- Itamar Reis Peixoto e-mail/msn: ita...@ispbrasil.com.br sip: ita...@ispbrasil.com.br skype: itamarjp icq: 81053601 +55 11 4063 5033 +55 34 3221 8599 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Once upon a time, Robert Marcano rob...@marcanoonline.com said: I think you are right about x86_64 probably is going to have a DVD Rom, I only have needed the CDs when installing i386 servers isolated from the internet. Remember, the minimum CPU for 32-bit x86 today is i586 (Pentium), and IIRC there was discussion about rebuilding for i686 (Pentium Pro). -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: Remember, the minimum CPU for 32-bit x86 today is i586 (Pentium), and IIRC there was discussion about rebuilding for i686 (Pentium Pro). If we really want to decrease the mirror foot print how about we off load some of the 640MB+ data and docs files that are showing up in the repository? - Bob | Robert 'Bob' Jensen|| Fedora Unity Founder | | b...@fedoraunity.org|| http://fedoraunity.org/ | | http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ | |http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen| -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Chris Adamscmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: Remember, the minimum CPU for 32-bit x86 today is i586 (Pentium), and IIRC there was discussion about rebuilding for i686 (Pentium Pro). You are technically right , but I am talking about the Fedora release Tag (that was i386), so If you want to be picky we must rename all directories on the mirrors to i686 or better x86 :-) -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list -- Robert Marcano -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
- Itamar Reis Peixoto ita...@ispbrasil.com.br wrote: the user's still able to install using netboot.iso. Yeah some guy in a mud hut with no DSL only a 56k modem, Power 4 hours a day... NetInst FAIL. I remember Seth talking a while back about yum's performance. As I remember, sure yum worked fine on his computers but try it on the OLPC. He then understood what the bugs and complaints were about. Some including myself will and have said that Fedora is not for everyone. But I still think we should look at those that are not in the technical situation we are fortunate enough to be in. - Bob | Robert 'Bob' Jensen|| Fedora Unity Founder | | b...@fedoraunity.org|| http://fedoraunity.org/ | | http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ | |http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen| -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On 13/06/09 19:22, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: - Itamar Reis Peixotoita...@ispbrasil.com.br wrote: the user's still able to install using netboot.iso. Yeah some guy in a mud hut with no DSL only a 56k modem, Power 4 hours a day... NetInst FAIL. Just curious. But if a user has bandwidth problems, how is\are mutiple CD's going to help, or is it purely on hardware grounds, no dvd-rom. Frank -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Frank Murphyfrankl...@gmail.com wrote: Just curious. But if a user has bandwidth problems, how is\are mutiple CD's going to help, or is it purely on hardware grounds, no dvd-rom. No/slow internet is commonly followed by old hardware, it is a common combination in my country. Recently on Fedora Venezuela mailing list we were discussing creating a special respin just because of the bandwidth problem here -- Robert Marcano -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
- Robert Marcano rob...@marcanoonline.com wrote: No/slow internet is commonly followed by old hardware, it is a common combination in my country. Recently on Fedora Venezuela mailing list we were discussing creating a special respin just because of the bandwidth problem here These are the exact people that Fedora Project should be talking to about this, not mirror admins, IMO anyhow. - Bob | Robert 'Bob' Jensen|| Fedora Unity Founder | | b...@fedoraunity.org|| http://fedoraunity.org/ | | http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ | |http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen| -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 5:46 AM, Matt Domschmatt_dom...@dell.com wrote: Your thoughts? Is there a geographic regional bias in the data? 1) Are all countries/regions downloading the split cds at less than 5% of the download activity for the given country region? 2) Is there a geographical bias in the direct download data pool? It could be that some regions are using local mirrors for downloading the isos more heavily than others. Are countries/regions equally representative in the direct iso download data logs relative to the mirrormanager mirrorlist polling logs? Answer 1 and 2 together should be able to give you a way to put all regions on an equal activity scale...to see if there are certain regions who are using split media more heavily. -jef -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
- Frank Murphy frankl...@gmail.com wrote: Just curious. But if a user has bandwidth problems, how is\are mutiple CD's going to help, or is it purely on hardware grounds, no dvd-rom. Does no one remember what happened last time the CD ball was dropped? Lets not repeat history just for fun. We have been down this road before, it was ugly and only lasted one release. Torrent tracker numbers BTW do not always tell the truth. In many cases in these less fortunate areas one person will download the ISO images, then make CDs for any one in the surrounding villages. Sneakernet is alive and well. I asked about this topic a few minutes ago in the #fedora-social IRC channel because we seemed to have a pretty diverse mix of people chatting. There was a resounding response that the CDs need to be kept. - Bob | Robert 'Bob' Jensen|| Fedora Unity Founder | | b...@fedoraunity.org|| http://fedoraunity.org/ | | http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ | |http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen| -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Once upon a time, Robert 'Bob' Jensen b...@fedoraunity.org said: I remember Seth talking a while back about yum's performance. As I remember, sure yum worked fine on his computers but try it on the OLPC. He then understood what the bugs and complaints were about. Uh, OLPC doesn't have a CD drive either AFAIK. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Jesse Keating wrote: If we don't do split CDs, Fedora Unity is likely to do them. If we don't produce and test split media as part of our beta/release cycle, we'll likely not find bugs with their usage until after the release is made and Fedora Unity attempts to make them. As long as /somebody/ within the Fedora project is going to create them and offer them to our users it is in our best interest to create them as part of our normal development cycle and iron out all the bugs before users attempt to use them. If Fedora Unity wants to create them, the burden of making them work should be on them. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Robert 'Bob' Jensenb...@fedoraunity.org wrote: Does no one remember what happened last time the CD ball was dropped? Lets not repeat history just for fun. We have been down this road before, it was ugly and only lasted one release. Torrent tracker numbers BTW do not always tell the truth. In many cases in these less fortunate areas one person will download the ISO images, then make CDs for any one in the surrounding villages. Sneakernet is alive and well. I asked about this topic a few minutes ago in the #fedora-social IRC channel because we seemed to have a pretty diverse mix of people chatting. There was a resounding response that the CDs need to be kept. How do we do a better job getting an accurate picture of install media usage patterns? To be honest I don't have a good idea on how to trend completely sneakernet activity..even as a historic relative measurement against itself. If the resulting installs never touch a network for updates, I don't have a way to see them at all. If you have ideas I'm all ears. Matt's attempt at trending it is just a starting point. We could do more, and I'm willing to help build up trendable metrics from the logs. But we need to agree that the metrics will help us make decisions as to how to support niche media. Is there a need to define a concept of secondary or legacy media for niche media? I don't have a problem keeping niche media in production (if there's room for it in our infrastructure), but I'd like to see a process that empowered the users and supporters of the media target to take more responsibility for it during releases inside the Fedora process. -jef -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: Yeah some guy in a mud hut with no DSL only a 56k modem, Power 4 hours a day... NetInst FAIL. We can't support everything. I'm sure there are some people still using a 486, we already don't support them anymore. A reasonably fast Internet connection is basically required to fetch updates for Fedora. While yum-presto, and in the near future also LZMA compression, lower the bar of reasonably fast a bit, there's a certain minimum which will always be there. And there's not just the netinstall option, there are also the live CDs. Choose your desktop environment (KDE or GNOME), get the corresponding live CD, install it, install all the other needed stuff through PackageKit. If your Internet connection is too slow for that, it's also too slow for the routine updates. Kevin Kofler -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
- Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: If Fedora Unity wants to create them, the burden of making them work should be on them. If Fedora Project will not or can not give the community what it needs that is where the community steps up, this is exactly what we did for Fedora 7. There is no requirement that mirror admins have to mirror everything that I am aware of, has something changed? If they are not required to mirror everything then why is this even an issue? Those that want to mirror the CDs will those that don't want to move on with their lives mirroring what they want to or what they can which ever applies. Facts are that most mirror admins will always want to use less space, less bandwidth this is nothing new. How enormous is a debian release on a mirror? Are they being... strong armed in to trimming their distro's options? I feel Fedora is being manipulated. - Bob | Robert 'Bob' Jensen|| Fedora Unity Founder | | b...@fedoraunity.org|| http://fedoraunity.org/ | | http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ | |http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen| -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Robert Marcano rob...@marcanoonline.com writes: I think you are right about x86_64 probably is going to have a DVD Rom, I only have needed the CDs when installing i386 servers isolated from the internet. I think we should start considering the option to ship the net install ISO as a hard disk image to be used for USB boot, I frequently install systems without optical media and that conversion step (ISO to HD) is not intuitive for all users Indeed, if Fedora cared about 2% of users then there would be an USB install/upgrade option. Since there isn't one, PXE will have to do, but that isn't likely to fly for the inexperienced user. /Benny -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 09:04:30PM +, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: - Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: If Fedora Unity wants to create them, the burden of making them work should be on them. If Fedora Project will not or can not give the community what it needs that is where the community steps up, this is exactly what we did for Fedora 7. There is no requirement that mirror admins have to mirror everything that I am aware of, has something changed? They can omit on a per-directory basis, but not on a per-file basis. MM tracks whole directories, not each file. By keeping the DVD and CD ISOs in the same directory, mirror admins are expected to carry both. One could argue that MM should be enhanced to track on a per-file basis. One could also argue that simply changing the directory layout, as is proposed for F12 (to also make it match the torrent layout) would alleviate this. If they are not required to mirror everything then why is this even an issue? Those that want to mirror the CDs will those that don't want to move on with their lives mirroring what they want to or what they can which ever applies. Facts are that most mirror admins will always want to use less space, less bandwidth this is nothing new. How enormous is a debian release on a mirror? Are they being... strong armed in to trimming their distro's options? I feel Fedora is being manipulated. The mirror admins themselves are not complaining. In fact, I haven't heard a huge uprising from anyone about it. I merely observed two things: 1) very few people are using the mirror system to download the CD set. Certainly more are using the torrents to get them, but even that number is low, and decreasing every release. 2) Several days each week-pre-release is set aside to ensure adequate time to get the release to the mirrors. The bits have to be posted by Thursday to ensure they're on sufficient numbers of mirrors by Tuesday morning. 45% of the content pushed during this week are the CD sets, which by the logs are downloaded by very few people. I'm not opposed to keeping the CD sets around, and hosting them via alt.fedoraproject.org or other non-mirror methods. That would let the few people who need direct download access to them still get them, and match service delivery resources to the expected load. But I also think it's fair to ask the question of do we need them at all anymore. I was hopeful that in the time since F7 when this last came up, the situation had changed. And I think I've shown that it has; changed enough to warrant dropping them altogether will be the subject of this debate. -- Matt Domsch Technology Strategist, Dell Office of the CTO linux.dell.com www.dell.com/linux -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
Don't be clouded by who is requesting it. Releng qa anaconda et al would love to stop doing split cds. Less confusion on what to download would be appreciated by many too. We are one of the last distros to still do cd media outside of live media. Is this a case of users not knowing there are better choices than split CDs? Research into those demanding splits should be done and documented by those eager to continue seeing them produced. -- Jes. (apologies for the top post) On Jun 13, 2009, at 14:04, Robert 'Bob' Jensen b...@fedoraunity.org wrote: - Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote: If Fedora Unity wants to create them, the burden of making them work should be on them. If Fedora Project will not or can not give the community what it needs that is where the community steps up, this is exactly what we did for Fedora 7. There is no requirement that mirror admins have to mirror everything that I am aware of, has something changed? If they are not required to mirror everything then why is this even an issue? Those that want to mirror the CDs will those that don't want to move on with their lives mirroring what they want to or what they can which ever applies. Facts are that most mirror admins will always want to use less space, less bandwidth this is nothing new. How enormous is a debian release on a mirror? Are they being... strong armed in to trimming their distro's options? I feel Fedora is being manipulated. - Bob -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: Do we need split media CDs for F12?
On 14/06/09 04:53, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: - Frank Murphyfrankl...@gmail.com wrote: Just curious. But if a user has bandwidth problems, how is\are mutiple CD's going to help, or is it purely on hardware grounds, no dvd-rom. Does no one remember what happened last time the CD ball was dropped? Lets not repeat history just for fun. We have been down this road before, it was ugly and only lasted one release. Torrent tracker numbers BTW do not always tell the truth. In many cases in these less fortunate areas one person will download the ISO images, then make CDs for any one in the surrounding villages. Sneakernet is alive and well. I asked about this topic a few minutes ago in the #fedora-social IRC channel because we seemed to have a pretty diverse mix of people chatting. There was a resounding response that the CDs need to be kept. What about a script that takes the DVD image and produces CD .isos? That saves on mirror space, but still allows people who want/need CDs to make them. Although it would require (temporarily) 2-3 times the disk space for that process, I guess. Bradley -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
