Re: [Finale] Another Music Spacing Issue
On Mar 27, 2004, at 3:28 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Yes, apparently. But it's spotting *something* and I don't quite understand why it thinks what it's seeing is the right thing to do -- I can't conceive of circumstances where the spacing it provides would ever be correct, accidentals or dots notwithstanding. I think it's spotting two overlapping chords, and it's not smart enough to recognize when the dot could be moved over. An example where this makes sense is not common, but not inconceivable either. Imagine that your RH part has a slow melody in the upstem layer with chords on the beat in the downstem layer. The melody and chords are written in such a way that the RH can play both (assume LH is doing something else). Assume further that the chords sometimes extend above the melody. (You wouldn't like have a chord over the melody note when it's attacked, but such a chord still might coincide with a tied note in the melody.) With all that in mind, suppose that you're in 3/4. Somewhere along the way the melody has a Bb over two measures so that it's two dotted halves tied. Coinciding with the tied note, the downstem voice has an EC chord. How would you write this? You can't very well push the dot all the way to the other side of the chord. In this case, the dot has to be between the note and the chord. I think this is what Finale thinks it's seeing in your example, even though in your case the dot could be adjusted over. That said, I think Finale adds a touch more space than necessary in this case. I have no explanation for the accidentals. That's just dumb. The major problem is that you have to get rid of the extra space allocated in the measure, and the only real way to do that is to remove the chord notes, space, and then add the real notes back, since the only alternative is adjusting the beat chart manually, which is more of a pain than deleting and re-entering the notes. Another technique which is occasionally useful is to pick the busier layer, choose Edit - View Active Layer Only, and respace for just the one layer. I don't do that often, but sometimes it's just what's needed. Revisiting the measure and applying spacing an additional time gives Finale a chance to compound it's error. (If you have dotted notes in separate layers a second apart, and you repeatedly swap layers, respacing after each swap, the notes and dots will continue to move farther and farther to the right.) Well, at least I hadn't encountered *that*. No reason you should. I offered it only as an illustration of how adjustments to note position and dot position are additive with each respacing. No, you have to move the note, then move the accidentals and the dots. But removing the chord note and spacing then gets it right, so you can add back the chord notes and it comes out all right. The only exception to that might be accidentals on the deleted chord notes, but those can be easily adjusted. You're right about needing to move the dot. I thought you were talking about moving an incorrectly adjusted dot back to where it started. I'm having fits with putting the stems-up notes in layer 1, as my musical sense tells me that the lower notes should be in layer 1. But I'm finally getting used to thinking about it Finale's way instead of thinking about it as music. This is probably also a result of not having used layers in the past. For me upstem=layer 1 is entirely intuitive, but I'm sure it was Finale use that created that intuition. Before Finale I wouldn't have thought about layer numbers at all. If you really like your layer 2 to be upstem, you could switch the stem behavior under Layer Options, but then I guess all your seconds would space wrong. This is another frustrating place where Finale is anti-musical and behaves too much like a computer program. I know it's not possible to get the musical idea right all the time (it would require extremely sophisticated artificial intelligence to do so), but it's a constant frustration to me to have to think non-musically. Maybe that's testimony to how musical most of Finale happens to be, that the points where it's not annoy me so much. I think that's a good analysis. A lot of the spacing decisions for multi-voice stuff is very complicated, and any of us would be hard-pressed to state all our rules algorithmically. In some particularly complicated pieces (typically, piano reductions of orchestral music) I've even had places where if I sit down and study the music for a bit I realize there's a better way to organize it to make it more readable. It's not practical to expect the software to figure all that out for you, and the fact that we expect it to is a tribute to what a good job it does on all the easier passages. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Music Spacing Issue
On Mar 27, 2004, at 5:38 PM, Mark D Lew wrote: An example where this makes sense is not common, but not inconceivable either. Imagine that [...] Reviewing this, I see I'm overthinking it. A more common situation is this: In the RH piano, the upstem voice is following the melody but with chords built around an octave on the melody note. At some point there is an inner voice that moves while the melody holds. If that's a dotted half on the downbeat, then you're going to want the downstem quarter note to the right, so that it doesn't break up the inner line. The dot has to be between the two stems. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Music Spacing Issue
On Mar 26, 2004, at 12:36 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Here's the problem: If layer 2 is a chord instead of a single note, the spacing is completely wrong -- the layer 1 note is spaced by itself and the layer 2 chord is spaced way out to the right, as though the two didn't occur in the same metric position. [...] Can anyone confirm this? Yes. That matches experience in Fin Mac 2k2. I don't remember this ever working perfectly. In the old days, Finale didn't try to fix spacing for seconds in separate layers at all, so that the noteheads were just on top of each other. Later, spacing for seconds was added, whereupon it gets it right some of the time but often gets confused by more complicated situations. In the given example, I assume the problem is that Finale has an algorithm associated with spacing a second, and it's only smart enough to spot a second when it's one note in each layer. I'm working on piano music and this kind of thing is quite common, and it's causing me to do far more manual editing than I ever had to do in the past, and I'm having to move the notes, the accidentals *and* the dots. Do you have automatic music spacing turned on? If not, it seems to me you shouldn't ever have to move the dot. In the procedure you spelled out, the dot got moved only because you spaced it once and Finale figured it right, then you added and spaced again and Finale got it wrong. Revisiting the measure and applying spacing an additional time gives Finale a chance to compound it's error. (If you have dotted notes in separate layers a second apart, and you repeatedly swap layers, respacing after each swap, the notes and dots will continue to move farther and farther to the right.) Better is to enter all the music first and then apply spacing just once. That way either it will get it right or it won't. If it doesn't all you have to move is the note. Accidentals are a separate matter. I've found that they frequently don't place where I want them even on a one-layer chord. (Even flats on a sixth are too far apart for my taste.) I concur with everyone here that the spacing algorithm for multi-layer chords with dots has room for improvement. I guess I'm just used to it. I tend to take it for granted that in dense piano music with multiple layers I'm going to have to move some notes around horizontally. If there's three layers and/or unisons it gets even more hairy, and I never expect Finale to space it right. By the way, in case you don't already know, Finale will always push the note in the higher-numbered layer to the right, regardless of which note is higher on the staff or which way the stems are going. It's helpful to know that sometimes. There are times when I choose my layers assignments specifically so that Finale will space it correctly without me having to go back and revisit. mdl ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Music Spacing Issue
Mark D Lew wrote: [snip] Do you have automatic music spacing turned on? If not, it seems to me you shouldn't ever have to move the dot. In the procedure you spelled out, the dot got moved only because you spaced it once and Finale figured it right, then you added and spaced again and Finale got it wrong. [snip] Better is to enter all the music first and then apply spacing just once. That way either it will get it right or it won't. If it doesn't all you have to move is the note. Are these problems the same with each different spacing library? Might it be possible to change spacing libraries and space just a problem area or two, while using a different library for all the non-trouble spots? I don't know, I'm just asking if anybody has tried different spacing libraries and get the same spacing errors with all of them. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Music Spacing Issue
Yes. That matches experience in Fin Mac 2k2. I don't remember this ever working perfectly. In the old days, Finale didn't try to fix spacing for seconds in separate layers at all, so that the noteheads were just on top of each other. Later, spacing for seconds was added, whereupon it gets it right some of the time but often gets confused by more complicated situations. Yes, I'm running 2002b, and have problems like this, especially when I am working on a song that has two verses and different notes for the second verse. It takes a lot of nudging and dragging to get it to look right. Crystal Premo [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Music Spacing Issue
On 26 Mar 2004 at 19:58, Christopher BJ Smith wrote: I ran into the same bug in FinMac 2003, and reported it, and apparently it is a problem with the way the feature was implemented, to be corrected in later versions (I haven't checked in 2004, as I rarely use OSX these days.) The way around it is to enter the passage with the dots and the second in different layers, one note each layer. Space it. Then turn off auto-space, enter the extra notes in the chord, and exit the bar without ever respacing it again. Yes, naturally, I discovered this, but it does mean doing spacing at a point in the process that I would normally not do it (during entry). My process is generally: 1. enter all the notes in all the parts, no spacing (unless necessary in particular passages for legibility while entering, and that spacing is only temporary). 2. select all and space the whole file. 3. go through the score again putting in expressions, articulations, slurs and smart shape dynamics. Space as necessary. Doing that won't work, so I have to remove the chord notes in the proofreading stage, after step 3), respace and add back the notes. It's extremely annoying. Fortunately, I use layer 2 very little, so it's very easy for me to find these visually. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Music Spacing Issue
On 26 Mar 2004 at 23:59, Mark D Lew wrote: On Mar 26, 2004, at 12:36 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Here's the problem: If layer 2 is a chord instead of a single note, the spacing is completely wrong -- the layer 1 note is spaced by itself and the layer 2 chord is spaced way out to the right, as though the two didn't occur in the same metric position. [...] Can anyone confirm this? Yes. That matches experience in Fin Mac 2k2. I don't remember this ever working perfectly. In the old days, Finale didn't try to fix spacing for seconds in separate layers at all, so that the noteheads were just on top of each other. Later, spacing for seconds was added, whereupon it gets it right some of the time but often gets confused by more complicated situations. I didn't use layers for this in the past, but used voice 1 and voice 2. I'm really not sure why I switched over, since I'm not really seeing any great advantage to it at this point now that I'm discovering the things that don't work right. In the given example, I assume the problem is that Finale has an algorithm associated with spacing a second, and it's only smart enough to spot a second when it's one note in each layer. Yes, apparently. But it's spotting *something* and I don't quite understand why it thinks what it's seeing is the right thing to do -- I can't conceive of circumstances where the spacing it provides would ever be correct, accidentals or dots notwithstanding. I'm working on piano music and this kind of thing is quite common, and it's causing me to do far more manual editing than I ever had to do in the past, and I'm having to move the notes, the accidentals *and* the dots. Do you have automatic music spacing turned on? . . . Nope. I tried that for the first few months I used WinFin2K3, but then turned it off and haven't missed it. . . . If not, it seems to me you shouldn't ever have to move the dot. In the procedure you spelled out, the dot got moved only because you spaced it once and Finale figured it right, then you added and spaced again and Finale got it wrong. Well, the chord in layer 2 gets moved to the right so as not to collide with the note in layer 1, but there are no adjustments to horizontal spacing of dots or accidentals in either layer. The major problem is that you have to get rid of the extra space allocated in the measure, and the only real way to do that is to remove the chord notes, space, and then add the real notes back, since the only alternative is adjusting the beat chart manually, which is more of a pain than deleting and re-entering the notes. Revisiting the measure and applying spacing an additional time gives Finale a chance to compound it's error. (If you have dotted notes in separate layers a second apart, and you repeatedly swap layers, respacing after each swap, the notes and dots will continue to move farther and farther to the right.) Well, at least I hadn't encountered *that*. Better is to enter all the music first and then apply spacing just once. That way either it will get it right or it won't. If it doesn't all you have to move is the note. No, you have to move the note, then move the accidentals and the dots. But removing the chord note and spacing then gets it right, so you can add back the chord notes and it comes out all right. The only exception to that might be accidentals on the deleted chord notes, but those can be easily adjusted. Accidentals are a separate matter. I've found that they frequently don't place where I want them even on a one-layer chord. (Even flats on a sixth are too far apart for my taste.) I've got some places in the piece I finished Thursday that have some really weird accidental spacing. In one, a passage of 16th-note arpeggios, the sharp is two far to the left from the notehead, and bumps up against the 16th to the left. But there's not enough room between the two 16ths to fit the sharp (so I can't just nudge it to the right), so I have to adjust the beat chart. I don't remember ever having to adjust beat charts for that kind of situation (and, yes, I tried spacing metatool 3 and then 4 with CLEAR spacing turned on, and it didn't fix it). I concur with everyone here that the spacing algorithm for multi-layer chords with dots has room for improvement. I guess I'm just used to it. I tend to take it for granted that in dense piano music with multiple layers I'm going to have to move some notes around horizontally. If there's three layers and/or unisons it gets even more hairy, and I never expect Finale to space it right. OK, I guess the reason I didn't have a problem in the past was because of the fact that I didn't use layers for this. By the way, in case you don't already know, Finale will always push the note in the higher-numbered layer to the right, regardless of which note is higher on the staff or which way the stems are going. It's helpful to know that
Re: [Finale] Another Music Spacing Issue
At 03:36 PM 03/26/2004, David W. Fenton wrote: Can anyone confirm this? Yep. I reported that (or something very similar) to Coda a year or two ago. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Music Spacing Issue
On 26 Mar 2004 at 15:43, Aaron Sherber wrote: At 03:36 PM 03/26/2004, David W. Fenton wrote: Can anyone confirm this? Yep. I reported that (or something very similar) to Coda a year or two ago. Is the problem still present in Finale 2004? -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Music Spacing Issue
At 03:59 PM 03/26/2004, David W. Fenton wrote: Is the problem still present in Finale 2004? Yes. Incidentally, Fin2004 has struck me as generally the buggiest of the recent Finale releases. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Music Spacing Issue
I ran into the same bug in FinMac 2003, and reported it, and apparently it is a problem with the way the feature was implemented, to be corrected in later versions (I haven't checked in 2004, as I rarely use OSX these days.) The way around it is to enter the passage with the dots and the second in different layers, one note each layer. Space it. Then turn off auto-space, enter the extra notes in the chord, and exit the bar without ever respacing it again. Christopher At 3:36 PM -0500 3/26/04, David W. Fenton wrote: Is my version of Finale set up wrong, or are there simply lots of things about music spacing that have gone wrong in the last couple of versions of Finale? First there was the blank notation affecting spacing, and now I see all sorts of problems with spacing between layers with seconds and dotted notes and accidentals. To see the problem: 1. in layer 1, enter a note. 2. in layer 2, enter a note a step away lower than the note in layer 1. 3. apply spacing metatool 4. Everything's fine! Repeat the process, but make it a dotted note, and everything spaces fine (the dots are, properly, aligned, even though the notes are, properly, offset). But an accidental into the mix on the lower note or on both notes, and everything is fine. Here's the problem: If layer 2 is a chord instead of a single note, the spacing is completely wrong -- the layer 1 note is spaced by itself and the layer 2 chord is spaced way out to the right, as though the two didn't occur in the same metric position. I'm working on piano music and this kind of thing is quite common, and it's causing me to do far more manual editing than I ever had to do in the past, and I'm having to move the notes, the accidentals *and* the dots. Can anyone confirm this? I'm using WinFin2K3. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
