[Finale] Beaming question

[Johannes Gebauer]

The following 8th notes (treble clef)

b" (on 1st top ledger line), g, e, g, (all same octave), beamed together 
(beam below).


Should this beam be horizontal, or slanted (down, obviously)?

I can't really find a similar case in Ross.

Johannes
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Re: [Finale] Beaming question

[Michael Cook]

I'd say horizontal. I don't know of any theoretical "rule" here, but to 
me the slanted beam just doesn't look right.


Michael Cook

On 5 Nov 2005, at 12:55, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


The following 8th notes (treble clef)

b" (on 1st top ledger line), g, e, g, (all same octave), beamed 
together (beam below).


Should this beam be horizontal, or slanted (down, obviously)?

I can't really find a similar case in Ross.

Johannes
--
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Re: [Finale] Beaming question

[Johannes Gebauer]

That was my impression, too. Only, the publisher has just send me a file 
back, asking lots of such situations to be slanted. Looks very strange 
to me, but what can I do?



Johannes

On 05.11.2005 Michael Cook wrote:
I'd say horizontal. I don't know of any theoretical "rule" here, but 
to me the slanted beam just doesn't look right.


Michael Cook

On 5 Nov 2005, at 12:55, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

> The following 8th notes (treble clef)
>
> b" (on 1st top ledger line), g, e, g, (all same octave), beamed 
together (beam below).

>
> Should this beam be horizontal, or slanted (down, obviously)?
>
> I can't really find a similar case in Ross.
>




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Re: [Finale] Beaming question

[Robert Patterson]

Johannes Gebauer wrote:

Looks very strange 
to me, but what can I do?




You aren't going to find any rulebook that tells you whether that beam 
should be slanted or not. Is this not a case where you make the customer 
pay? Obviously, I don't know the details of your contract, but if it 
were me, any edits requiring significant manual edits effort beyond the 
(presumed) samples of your work you provided up front would cost plenty 
mucho extra. In this way, your own samples would become the rulebook for 
your work (or rather, for your base rate).


Finale will slant the beam if you change your beam style to "Based on 
End Points". And PB will edit them and (I think) leave them slanted. 
Unfortunately, Finale's rounding errors for metrics are more pronounced 
with "Based on End Points" beaming style. I often find 1- or 2-EVPU 
glitches in the PB-edited beams.


Even worse, every beam in the file would be affected.

--
Robert Patterson

http://RobertGPatterson.com
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Re: [Finale] Beaming question

[Christopher Smith]

On Nov 5, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


The following 8th notes (treble clef)

b" (on 1st top ledger line), g, e, g, (all same octave), beamed 
together (beam below).


Should this beam be horizontal, or slanted (down, obviously)?

I can't really find a similar case in Ross.



In Clinton Roemer, the Art of Hand Copying, his chapter on beams is 
quite extensive and he deals with this.


According to him, you slant a beam only if no note is lower than the 
last nor higher than the first, even if the contour is changing within 
the group, but not if there are recurring pitches (like an Alberti, 
which he would write flat). Since this is NOT your case, he would 
insist on a flat beam.


2nd Edition, pg 65, second last line third example, he has your exact 
example (a step up and in retrograde, but there it is!) with a flat 
beam.



Kurt Stone (1st edition, pg 11) has less detail, but is more flexible 
on the subject. He says that beams on note groups with an irregular 
contour can be flat OR slanted. He has an example slanted that Roemer 
would have definitely written flat.



I have a copy of Norton Manual of Music Manuscript, George Heusenstamm, 
lying around in the piles somewhere so I can't cite a page, but I 
remember that he definitely accepts more slanting than anyone else. He 
slants according to the starting and ending notes, and so would 
definitely slant your example.



You didn't ask MY opinion, but I would tend to default to flat beams 
for your example, more along the lines of Roemer.


Christopher

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Re: [Finale] Beaming question

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 05.11.2005 Robert Patterson wrote:
You aren't going to find any rulebook that tells you whether that 
beam should be slanted or not. Is this not a case where you make the 
customer pay? Obviously, I don't know the details of your contract, 
but if it were me, any edits requiring significant manual edits 
effort beyond the (presumed) samples of your work you provided up 
front would cost plenty mucho extra. In this way, your own samples 
would become the rulebook for your work (or rather, for your base 
rate).


The situation is a little more complicated, as the publisher is not 
actually my customer at all. I won't bore you with the details, but yes, 
everything will have to be paid for. Actually, there are occasionally 
situations where one has to edit beams manually, eg chromatic scales in 
certain situations.
In this particular case I just want to make sure that I am not actually 
wrong in what I originally had. My customer doesn't actually have a 
clue, and I want to make sure that he won't argue with me on the 
assumption that the publisher has more authority than I. Otherwise he 
might argue about the extra costs.


Finale will slant the beam if you change your beam style to "Based on 
End Points". And PB will edit them and (I think) leave them slanted. 
Unfortunately, Finale's rounding errors for metrics are more 
pronounced with "Based on End Points" beaming style. I often find 1- 
or 2-EVPU glitches in the PB-edited beams.


"Based on End Points" is definitely not what I want for the rest of the 
volume.


That brings up another point: Does anyone of the big publishers actually 
use different basic rules than "Based on Extreme Note", ie "Standard 
Note"? I don't mean exceptions, there will always be some, but the 
general rule?


Johannes

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Re: [Finale] Beaming question

[Andrew Stiller]

On Nov 5, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


The following 8th notes (treble clef)

b" (on 1st top ledger line), g, e, g, (all same octave), beamed 
together (beam below).


Should this beam be horizontal, or slanted (down, obviously)?



If you mean this literally, that is, B above the staff followed by G E 
G, all *below*  the staff, then I would use a beam that runs below the 
B and above all the others.


On the other hand, if G E G are all in the staff (i.e., g' e' g') then 
I don't understand the fuss at all. What's wrong with Finale's 
(slanted) default? For that matter, what's wrong with horizontal?


Andrew Stiller
Kallisti Music Press
http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/

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Re: [Finale] Beaming question

[dhbailey]

Johannes Gebauer wrote:

That was my impression, too. Only, the publisher has just send me a file 
back, asking lots of such situations to be slanted. Looks very strange 
to me, but what can I do?




Until you've cashed their check, nothing except make them slanted.

I'd vote for horizontal as looking best and maintaining the visual image 
matching the auditory one -- that group of notes does not sound like a 
descending passage, regardless of the fact that the final e is lower 
than the initial b.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] Beaming question

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 05.11.2005 Andrew Stiller wrote:

> On Nov 5, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:
>
>> The following 8th notes (treble clef)
>>
>> b" (on 1st top ledger line), g, e, g, (all same octave), beamed 
together (beam below).

>>
>> Should this beam be horizontal, or slanted (down, obviously)?
>>

If you mean this literally, that is, B above the staff followed by G 
E G, all *below*  the staff, then I would use a beam that runs below 
the B and above all the others.


On the other hand, if G E G are all in the staff (i.e., g' e' g') 
then I don't understand the fuss at all. What's wrong with Finale's 
(slanted) default? For that matter, what's wrong with horizontal?




Sorry, I was very inaccurate: b", g", e",g" (all in the same octave).

Finale's default (Based on Extreme Note) is flat.

Johannes

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Re: [Finale] Beaming question

[Chuck Israels]

Hi Johannes,

Flat looks better to my eyes because the figure seems centered around  
one note, even though the last note is lower than the first, and the  
flat beam expresses that.  I even tried entering a descending figure  
afterward, in order to see if that influenced my response - making  
the passage an overall descending one, and the flat beam still seemed  
more a pro pos.  That's just my personal reaction.


Chuck


On Nov 5, 2005, at 9:46 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


On 05.11.2005 Andrew Stiller wrote:


> On Nov 5, 2005, at 6:55 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:
>
>> The following 8th notes (treble clef)
>>
>> b" (on 1st top ledger line), g, e, g, (all same octave), beamed  
together (beam below).

>>
>> Should this beam be horizontal, or slanted (down, obviously)?
>>
If you mean this literally, that is, B above the staff followed by  
G E G, all *below*  the staff, then I would use a beam that runs  
below the B and above all the others.
On the other hand, if G E G are all in the staff (i.e., g' e' g')  
then I don't understand the fuss at all. What's wrong with  
Finale's (slanted) default? For that matter, what's wrong with  
horizontal?




Sorry, I was very inaccurate: b", g", e",g" (all in the same octave).

Finale's default (Based on Extreme Note) is flat.

Johannes

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Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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Re: [Finale] GPO question

[David W. Fenton]

On 5 Nov 2005 at 8:07, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

> On 05.11.2005 David W. Fenton wrote:
> > Even with mirrors?
> > 
> > Or even just waiting until the piece is finished and just copying
> > the data to separate staves?
> > 
> > Of course, it it's only for proofreading playback, I can see why you
> > wouldn't want to bother at all. But for creating a MIDI file or
> > saved playback, neither mirrors nor copying sounds like too ornerous
> > a task to get the real playback. 
> 
> Well, it completely messes up the layout, as far as I can 
> see. . . .

???

Hidden staves mess up layout?

> . .. Also,
> in what way are mirrors different for this from just copying? 

Well, I was just suggesting it as a possibility. A mirror could be 
put in place before you finished the bass line so you could have 
proper playback during the entry process.

> > With continuo, the real hard part is writing the realization! 
> 
> Yeah, I wasn't that ambitious, just the bass part would have 
> given enough of an impression.
> 
> Of course, I have always hoped for a figured bass tool in Finale,
> where the numbers can be entered more easily, and they are realized in
> playback. I would definitely get that update.

That would be quite wonderful. It always seemed to me that it ought 
to be one aspect of the chord tool, which should do the same thing 
for playback (with somewhat less strict rules).

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] Beaming question

[David W. Fenton]

On 5 Nov 2005 at 10:03, Chuck Israels wrote:

> Flat looks better to my eyes because the figure seems centered around 
> one note, even though the last note is lower than the first, and the 
> flat beam expresses that.  I even tried entering a descending figure 
> afterward, in order to see if that influenced my response - making 
> the passage an overall descending one, and the flat beam still seemed 
> more a pro pos.  That's just my personal reaction.

I've never paid much attention to beaming. Finale's early beaming 
algorithms were truly horrid and looked just awful, and I recognized 
that, but back then there was no way to fix it except by manually 
tweaking practically every beam. So I ended up basically getting in 
the habit of ignoring beaming.

Now, the default beams are much less odious (though still often 
problematic) and running Patterson Beams gets me something that is 
good enough for me.

But all of this discussion raises some interesting points. David 
Bailey remarked that beam angle can provide useful analytical 
information -- in a figure that is basically static (like an Alberti 
bass) a flat beam conveys the static nature.

Chuck's remark above makes a related point, and makes me ask:

>From a sight-reading point of view, from an analytical point of view, 
what if you had 4-note static figures in a descending sequence? Would 
it then be helpful to slightly slant the beams to give the overall 
passage a descending motion? Or is it enough that each successive 
group's beam is lower (though that won't always be the case because 
of staff line avoidance)?

In transcribing 18th-century sources I religiously maintain beam 
breaks and reversed beams (the |\| kind of beam), because I think 
they indicate subtle things about phrasing (though not always). But 
standards for beam angle are completely different in modern notation 
than in the old, and so I never even thought to replicate any of 
that. 

Johannes and Dennis C., and any others who edit older music, do you 
think there's anything in the beaming angle of the original sources 
that might be worth preserving? Do you also try to preserve the 
beaming breaks and reversed beams?

Maintaining the reversed beams makes for some bad engraving, in some 
cases. Here's an example:

http://www.dfenton.com/Midi/MozartK581Arr/MozartK581Arr_019.png

That looks terrible in modern engraving, though it looks fine in the 
original. And, interestingly, an 1811 reprint of the same piece that 
follows the 1802 first edition very closely does *not* use the 
reversed beam, but simply breaks it between the first two 32nd notes. 
I'm not sure there's any utility in my slavish devotion to following 
the original, and if I were preparing the edition for publication I'd 
probably take out the reversed beams in this passage, because the 
32nd-note beams make it so unwieldy. I'd probably retain it 
everywhere that it doesn't cause vertical spacing issues.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] Beaming question

[Chuck Israels]

On Nov 5, 2005, at 11:40 AM, David W. Fenton wrote:


On 5 Nov 2005 at 10:03, Chuck Israels wrote:



Flat looks better to my eyes because the figure seems centered around
one note, even though the last note is lower than the first, and the
flat beam expresses that.  I even tried entering a descending figure
afterward, in order to see if that influenced my response - making
the passage an overall descending one, and the flat beam still seemed
more a pro pos.  That's just my personal reaction.



I've never paid much attention to beaming. Finale's early beaming
algorithms were truly horrid and looked just awful, and I recognized
that, but back then there was no way to fix it except by manually
tweaking practically every beam. So I ended up basically getting in
the habit of ignoring beaming.

Now, the default beams are much less odious (though still often
problematic) and running Patterson Beams gets me something that is
good enough for me.

But all of this discussion raises some interesting points. David
Bailey remarked that beam angle can provide useful analytical
information -- in a figure that is basically static (like an Alberti
bass) a flat beam conveys the static nature.

Chuck's remark above makes a related point, and makes me ask:



From a sight-reading point of view, from an analytical point of view,


what if you had 4-note static figures in a descending sequence? Would
it then be helpful to slightly slant the beams to give the overall
passage a descending motion? Or is it enough that each successive
group's beam is lower (though that won't always be the case because
of staff line avoidance)?


I tried this too, thinking the same thoughts as you, David, and I  
still preferred the flat beams.  I think we are operating in an area  
of notation that combines visual "logic" with a substantial does of  
"what we're used to seeing," and I am just used to seeing flat beams  
for this kind of passage.  My taste in this has been deeply  
influenced by the combination of using Johannes' recommended settings  
and Patterson Beam settings, and it took me a while to get used to  
the overall flatter look (and sometimes shorter stems) that this  
produces.  Now I am so used to it, and so unhappy without it, that I  
apply the Patterson Beam plugin to areas I have just entered - while  
I am considering what to enter next, just to please my eyes.


Chuck






Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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Re: [Finale] Beaming question

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 05.11.2005 Chuck Israels wrote:
My taste in this has been deeply  influenced by the combination of 
using Johannes' recommended settings  and Patterson Beam settings, 
and it took me a while to get used to  the overall flatter look (and 
sometimes shorter stems) that this  produces.  Now I am so used to 
it, and so unhappy without it, that I  apply the Patterson Beam 
plugin to areas I have just entered - while  I am considering what to 
enter next, just to please my eyes.




Well, my approach can't be all that wrong, I guess. I am quite happy to 
accept that publishers like to have more slanted beams (like the 
particular publisher in question). I don#t like the look, but since many 
publishers prefer this I am happy to go with it. I am not so happy about 
slanting beams which I really think should be flat. But then, the 
publisher rules, if he pays.


Johannes

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Re: [Finale] Beaming question

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 05.11.2005 David W. Fenton wrote:
Johannes and Dennis C., and any others who edit older music, do you 
think there's anything in the beaming angle of the original sources 
that might be worth preserving? 


No.

Do you also try to preserve the 
beaming breaks and reversed beams?


Beaming breaks yes, reversed beams no, with exceptions.

Johannes

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[Finale] OT: Was: FinWin2005 won't start - now rebuilding Tinkpad

[A-NO-NE Music]

After cleaning Registry, my wife's FinWin2005b is working fine except it
is constantly loosing MIDI both in and out, the out being Finale
SoundFont, by the way.  If it were just 'in' then I'd look for MIDI
interface and input device, but I am certain that is not the issue at
this point.

I rather want to rebuilt the machine to get the clean start.  Forgive me
if I sound staring an OS flame war, which is not my intention at all,
but it only takes 40-60 minutes to rebuild Mac, while Windows always
gives me 2 days of headache.  Since I see many Windows guru here, I'd
like to ask for suggestions.

This is Thinkpad T20.  I need to wipe clean and scratch install
Win2KJP.  Here is the problem I always get.  DOS can't do NTFS.  If I
install as FAT, when I convert it to NTFS later, MBR screws up and I get
BSD with a bogus message telling me possible virus corrupted the
directory.  My guess of why it does this is because I _have to_ keep the
second partition, D: intact because that's where all the documents
lives, and installer confuses partition table.

The only solution I got is to reformat the internal drive, install Win2K
as FAT, convert to NTFS, repartition, and restore D: image, which is a 2
days job including finding the drivers for hardware components first
then running millions of Windows updators.

I don't want to do this.  I want to wipe C: only then reinstall Win2KJP
from the installer CD as NTFS.  My guess is I'd need Win32 boot floppy
disk which also supports CD-ROM drives.  Not only I can find now defunct
IBM CD-ROM driver, I also can't find NTFS capable boot floppy image on
the net.

Any suggestion would be appreciated.

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 


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Re: [Finale] OT: Was: FinWin2005 won't start - now rebuilding Tinkpad

[Aaron Sherber]

At 05:10 PM 11/5/2005, A-NO-NE Music wrote:
>I don't want to do this.  I want to wipe C: only then reinstall Win2KJP
>from the installer CD as NTFS.

You can do that. The Win2K CD allows you to format a partition as NTFS.

> My guess is I'd need Win32 boot floppy
>disk which also supports CD-ROM drives.

If what you have is an original Win2K CD, it ought to be bootable. Go 
into your computer setup screen (usually hit F2 as the computer does 
its inital boot) and make sure your CD drive is set to bootable and 
appears before the hard drive. Then insert your CD and reboot.


>IBM CD-ROM driver, I also can't find NTFS capable boot floppy image on
>the net.

The answer to all of your problems: http://www.nu2.nu/bootcd/

There are all kinds of bootable things here, including a way of 
making your own bootable Windows install CD in case the one you have 
isn't bootable. If you're note much of a PC person, this may take you 
a little time to work your way through it.


Hope this helps (a little).

Aaron.

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Re: [Finale] OT: Was: FinWin2005 won't start - now rebuilding Tinkpad

[Noel Stoutenburg]

A-NO-NE Music wrote:


After cleaning Registry, my wife's FinWin2005b is working fine except it
is constantly loosing MIDI both in and out, the out being Finale
SoundFont, by the way.  If it were just 'in' then I'd look for MIDI
interface and input device, but I am certain that is not the issue at
this point.

I rather want to rebuilt the machine to get the clean start.  
 



..


Any suggestion would be appreciated.
 




I"ve seen WIN based laptops as low as about 500 USD.  Get her a new 
machine as an early christmas present.

put FInale on that, and leave the rest for the other stuff that's on it.



ns

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Re: [Finale] OT: Was: FinWin2005 won't start - now rebuilding Tinkpad

[A-NO-NE Music]

Aaron Sherber / 2005/11/05 / 05:37 PM wrote:
>You can do that. The Win2K CD allows you to format a partition as NTFS.

Well, true, but the problem comes before that.  Even though my Win2KJP
installer CD is bootable, it is still DOS, meaning it won't see the
current NTFS partition.  The D: is FAT32 because I save C: image on D:
(usually but not on this Thinkpad yet) for emergency restore, and when I
need to do that I boot from DOS boot floppy.  Win2KJP installer CD
insists on installing Win2K on D: (which is labeled as C: of course).

>The answer to all of your problems: http://www.nu2.nu/bootcd/

Thank you.  I am looking at it.  So far, I am not convinced (yet) any of
them would work on JP native.  But I will definitely try one of the boot
CD there.

Noel Stoutenburg / 2005/11/05 / 05:39 PM wrote:
>I"ve seen WIN based laptops as low as about 500 USD.  Get her a new 
>machine as an early christmas present.
>put FInale on that, and leave the rest for the other stuff that's on it.

I wish it's that easy, like Mac, which is Unicode native, and making OS
into JP locale is one checkbox away because its a single binary install
like the rest of the world.  Windows is not like that.  If you want true
JP locale, you must install localized Windows, which by the way cost you
$500 because Micor$haft prohibits US reseller to sell non US version in
US and you have to pay for importers.  Nasty business.  Micro$haft
intentionally install half-baked .dll for NT based Windows US version so
they can sell special .dll package to non English users in US, in my
case, they want to sell me what called "Far East Package" which costs
like $300 (last I checked) so I just went to native Win2KJP.

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 


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Re: [Finale] OT: Was: FinWin2005 won't start - now rebuilding Tinkpad

[Aaron Sherber]

At 06:11 PM 11/5/2005, A-NO-NE Music wrote:
>Aaron Sherber / 2005/11/05 / 05:37 PM wrote:
>>You can do that. The Win2K CD allows you to format a partition as NTFS.
>
>Well, true, but the problem comes before that.  Even though my Win2KJP
>installer CD is bootable, it is still DOS, meaning it won't see the
>current NTFS partition.

I don't know about JP, but my Windows CD had no problems seeing my 
NTFS partition.


>Thank you.  I am looking at it.  So far, I am not convinced (yet) any of
>them would work on JP native.

Yes, sorry, I don't know anything about that.

Aaron.

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Re: [Finale] OT: Was: FinWin2005 won't start - now rebuilding Tinkpad

[David W. Fenton]

On 5 Nov 2005 at 17:10, A-NO-NE Music wrote:

> This is Thinkpad T20.  I need to wipe clean and scratch install
> Win2KJP.  Here is the problem I always get.  DOS can't do NTFS.  If I
> install as FAT, when I convert it to NTFS later, MBR screws up and I
> get BSD with a bogus message telling me possible virus corrupted the
> directory.  My guess of why it does this is because I _have to_ keep
> the second partition, D: intact because that's where all the documents
> lives, and installer confuses partition table.

Why not leave the drive alone (i.e., don't reformat) and install 
Win2K in a new directory. You will end up with two bootable copies of 
Windows. After you've migrated everything to the new Windows (i.e., 
re-installed all software and the like), you can the delete the old 
Windows folder.

My current PC was originally NT 4. I upgraded it to Win2K sometime 
later. Eventually I decided I wanted a fresh, clean Win2K 
installation (the main reason was to see if it would fix some 
soundcard driver issues; it didn't), so I just installed in C:\Win2K, 
and ran dual boot until I'd decided I didn't need the old C:\WinNT 
folder, and eventually deleted it.

I don't see any reason to reformat at all, as most of the accumulated 
crud you're trying to clean up is going to be in the old Windows 
installation's registry files.

If you keep your programs on a different partition, this is even 
faster. The issue of C:\Documents and Settings is a harder one. If 
you replicate old user accounts with the same name in your new 
Windows installation, you'll want to keep track of which of the 
similarly-named folders under C:\Documents and Settings belong to 
which Windows installation. You may also need to change permissions 
on the legacy account folders in order that you can import data from 
them into the new accounts.

Or you can leave the old data alone and start over.

However, there are some things that you may really want, such as 
Outlook Express email data files and your web browser's bookmarks. 
Neither of those should be much of a problem. As long as you have 
permissions on the legacy folders, you can import the old mailboxes 
into your new OE installation, and import your old bookmarks as well. 


The only thing you have to be careful about is not to delete the 
legacy permissions, which will show up under the new Windows 
installations as GUIDs rather than the old usernames (the new 
installation can't read the old NTFS security database, so it can 
match the SID (which is a GUID) to the human-friendly account name).

But really, you don't need to reformat the whole drive to get a fresh 
Windows install. I've never quite understood why anyone would 
advocate doing so.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] OT: Was: FinWin2005 won't start - now rebuilding Tinkpad

[David W. Fenton]

On 5 Nov 2005 at 18:11, A-NO-NE Music wrote:

> Aaron Sherber / 2005/11/05 / 05:37 PM wrote:
> >You can do that. The Win2K CD allows you to format a partition as
> >NTFS.
> 
> Well, true, but the problem comes before that.  Even though my Win2KJP
> installer CD is bootable, it is still DOS, meaning it won't see the
> current NTFS partition. . ..

That really oughtn't be true, unless you've got a non-Windows boot 
manager on the machine.

> . . . The D: is FAT32 because I save C: image on D:
> (usually but not on this Thinkpad yet) for emergency restore, and when
> I need to do that I boot from DOS boot floppy.  Win2KJP installer CD
> insists on installing Win2K on D: (which is labeled as C: of course).

Again, I don't see any purpose in reformatting. Just install a fresh 
copy of Windows in a new folder, alongside the old one. If you don't 
have enough space for that, then I'd suggest that you probably don't 
have enough free space on the system partition (assuming you're 
putting the swap file on the system partition, which would be the 
only sensible place on a system where the only other available volume 
is FAT -- there's not much point in running NTFS on the system drive 
if you're storing the swap file on a non-NTFS volume).

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] OT: Was: FinWin2005 won't start - now rebuilding Tinkpad

[David W. Fenton]

On 5 Nov 2005 at 18:25, Aaron Sherber wrote:

> At 06:11 PM 11/5/2005, A-NO-NE Music wrote:
>  >Aaron Sherber / 2005/11/05 / 05:37 PM wrote:
>  >>You can do that. The Win2K CD allows you to format a partition as
>  NTFS. > >Well, true, but the problem comes before that.  Even though
>  my Win2KJP >installer CD is bootable, it is still DOS, meaning it
>  won't see the >current NTFS partition.
> 
> I don't know about JP, but my Windows CD had no problems seeing my
> NTFS partition.

Any Windows CD should boot to the Command Console, which will load 
the NTFS SAM (security database) from the available mountable 
volumes, and if there's more than one, it will ask you which one you 
want to use (and then request a user logon with appropriate 
permissions for the task at hand, which for installing the OS means 
an administrator account). 

If the NTFS volume doesn't mount, that suggests that you have some 
other boot loader or partition management software on the machine, 
which can definitely mess things up.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] Data-erasing bug in Fin2006 - The facts

[Eric Dussault]

Thanks Allen,
I was talking about the bug that seem to erase data randomly after  
inserting measures at the end of a document or important mass edit  
operations, as reported by Hiro, Masao Iikura, Chuck Israels and  
Javier Ruiz.
From your response, you seem to be talking about the overwrite bug.  
Am I right? Could you clarify this?


Le 05-11-04 à 15:58, Fisher, Allen a écrit :


Eric--

We can reproduce this in house. We've got a couple of different  
ways to

reproduce it. It most often (notice I said most often, not *always*)
happens with multiple documents (not necessarily open all at the same
time) during a session. I'm not a programmer so I'm not going to
speculate on a cause.

Allen



Éric Dussault


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Re: [Finale] OT: Was: FinWin2005 won't start - now rebuilding Tinkpad

[A-NO-NE Music]

David W. Fenton / 2005/11/05 / 08:00 PM wrote:

>Again, I don't see any purpose in reformatting. Just install a fresh 
>copy of Windows in a new folder, alongside the old one.

On my Macs, I like zero-formatting to map out bad sectors.  It's just my
habit.  But since Win2KJP install CD won't see C: which is NTFS, I can't
install the new Win2KJP next to the old one either.

>If the NTFS volume doesn't mount, that suggests that you have some 
>other boot loader or partition management software on the machine, 
>which can definitely mess things up.

Shoot.  Is this what it's about?  I have always partitioned with PQMagic
for many, many years.  Is this the source of my problem?  Is there any
way to remedy this at this point?  By the way, I once bought
SystemCommander and used it once for my beloved trusty Win95JP, but it
really broke boot sector to the point unrepeatable.  And it's been so
difficult to have multiple bootable Wintel especially before the birth
of NTLoader, which still can screw things up after restore.  I am too
used to Mac which can be booted from pretty much anything (.. but
floppy, of course :-) .. What I mean is, if it were Mac here, I would
had booted off a FW drive to format and install Thinkpad's internal
drive without going through any of this frustration.  Sorry.  I had to vent.

Thanks David.

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 


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Re: [Finale] Data-erasing bug in Fin2006 - The facts

[Chuck Israels]

Just to make this clear to all - I have not seen the data erasing bug  
- rather I've had Finale crashes (in 2006).  I using 2006a - I've had  
no problems so far except for an occasional strange behavior when  
copying entries from one staff to another in another transposition  
where the stem direction and tie direction is wrong.  If anyone else  
sees this, please let us know.  I'm not reporting it until I'm sure  
it's not document specific.


Chuck


On Nov 5, 2005, at 7:23 PM, Eric Dussault wrote:


Thanks Allen,
I was talking about the bug that seem to erase data randomly after  
inserting measures at the end of a document or important mass edit  
operations, as reported by Hiro, Masao Iikura, Chuck Israels and  
Javier Ruiz.
From your response, you seem to be talking about the overwrite bug.  
Am I right? Could you clarify this?


Le 05-11-04 à 15:58, Fisher, Allen a écrit :



Eric--

We can reproduce this in house. We've got a couple of different  
ways to

reproduce it. It most often (notice I said most often, not *always*)
happens with multiple documents (not necessarily open all at the same
time) during a session. I'm not a programmer so I'm not going to
speculate on a cause.

Allen




Éric Dussault


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Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com


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Re: [Finale] Data-erasing bug in Fin2006 - The facts

[A-NO-NE Music]

Chuck Israels / 2005/11/05 / 11:08 PM wrote:

>copying entries from one staff to another in another transposition  
>where the stem direction and tie direction is wrong.  If anyone else  
>sees this, please let us know.  I'm not reporting it until I'm sure  
>it's not document specific.

Yes, I have seen it once.  I was moving so fast I was not sure what I
was doing at that time, and I assumed I did something wrong.  Now you
mentioned it...

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 


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Re: [Finale] OT: Was: FinWin2005 won't start - now rebuilding Tinkpad

[David W. Fenton]

On 5 Nov 2005 at 22:36, A-NO-NE Music wrote:

> David W. Fenton / 2005/11/05 / 08:00 PM wrote:
> 
> >Again, I don't see any purpose in reformatting. Just install a fresh
> >copy of Windows in a new folder, alongside the old one.
> 
> On my Macs, I like zero-formatting to map out bad sectors.  It's just
> my habit.  But since Win2KJP install CD won't see C: which is NTFS, I
> can't install the new Win2KJP next to the old one either.

Well, I don't believe that's necessary on Windows disks. You should 
be able to run a full disk check by opening Windows Explorer, right 
clicking on the C: driver, choosing PROPERTIES and then the TOOLS 
tabl, and then CHECK NOW. Check off both choices and then schedule 
the job for the next boot. It will run a full check for bad sectors, 
move all readable data out of them and then mark them bad. This 
should be just as good as a full reformat.

I'd do this before installing the new Windows.

And after installation, let the drive defrag overnight (actually, you 
usually need to defrag about 8 times to get the drive completely 
defragmented; I don't know why this is -- I tend to do start a defrag 
and go in the other room to watch TV, then check back periodically 
and restart a new defrag each time it completes). Then defrag again 
after you remove the old Windows installation. And running the disk 
check again at that point wouldn't be a terribly idea.

NTFS is pretty good with self-healing though. I've never had problems 
with NTFS like I had with FAT or FAT32, even though I was much more 
diligent with disk maintenance under FAT.

> >If the NTFS volume doesn't mount, that suggests that you have some
> >other boot loader or partition management software on the machine,
> >which can definitely mess things up.
> 
> Shoot.  Is this what it's about?  I have always partitioned with
> PQMagic for many, many years.  Is this the source of my problem?  Is
> there any way to remedy this at this point?  By the way, I once bought
> SystemCommander and used it once for my beloved trusty Win95JP, but it
> really broke boot sector to the point unrepeatable.  And it's been so
> difficult to have multiple bootable Wintel especially before the birth
> of NTLoader, which still can screw things up after restore.  I am too
> used to Mac which can be booted from pretty much anything (.. but
> floppy, of course :-) .. What I mean is, if it were Mac here, I would
> had booted off a FW drive to format and install Thinkpad's internal
> drive without going through any of this frustration.

I don't think this is a Windows issue. I think you've got some weird 
partition management software that has to be loaded to mount the 
partition, and that's not running when you boot from the CD (since 
it's part of the MBR of the active partition on the hard drive rather 
than the CD). These kinds of partition management utilities usually 
have some way of getting round that, where you can load the drivers 
from floppy or something. If you can get to the Windows Command 
Console you should be able to run a program from the floppy disk, but 
I don't know how to launch the command console from a Windows CD 
(only from the system boot partition).

This ought to be a common scenario so PQMagic (PowerQuest 
PartionMagic? If it's that, it's a very good product that I use 
myself, though not the boot manager) ought to provide instructions on 
how to do what you need to do, and you can then probably wipe the 
drive entirely, as you prefer.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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[Finale] Project Roemer

[Darcy James Argue]

This will definitely be of interest to anyone interested in MusicXML,  
manuscript-style music fonts, or Clinton Roemer's book, "The Art of  
Music Copying":




- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://homepage.mac.com/djargon
Brooklyn, NY



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