Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 02 May 2007, at 12:54 AM, Randolph Peters wrote: [snipped in its entirety] Amen, Randolph. Great comments and insight. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Randolph Peters wrote:
It's been my experience that conductors do not like long measures
of slow tempo.
John Howell wrote:
OH? conductors do what is necessary to serve the music. I can't
imagine what such a generalization could have grown out of.
I'm talking about MY real world experience here. Of course a
conductor is going to try and serve the music and do what is
necessary. When you get outside of academia, you'll find that the
theory of what should be done is often at odds with what actually is
preferred. On this question, I've had conversations about it with the
current conductors of the Vancouver Symphony, the Canadian Opera
Company, Baltimore Symphony and the Winnipeg Symphony for starters.
When it comes to new music, they simply don't like conducting long
measures with many beats and slow tempos.
Making twice as many measures in 6/8 is better than longer measures
of 12/8 at 1/8 = 50 MM.
If the music is in 6, that's true. If it's in 12 it isn't. You
can't just manipulate the math without considering the music and its
natural phrasing. In fact the phrasing IS the music, not just one
dam note after another.
It was clear from the original post that the music didn't have a
pulse ("very slow and no beat is stressed") and therefore there
was no reason not to make smaller measures.
Even though it makes no difference mathematically, it helps with
the beating patterns and the score/part reading.
It makes a huge difference. Did you miss the day in elementary
school when they explained the placement of strong and weak beats in
a measure?
Did you miss the fact that we are talking about a new composition
here? That means it just might not fit the traditional pattern of
emphases. It just might not have any strong and weak beats. Oh yeah,
the original poster already said that.
A musician can discern much easier where you are with 6 beats
rather than 12. (I'm assuming that the 4 beats of three pulses does
not apply here.)
Huh? That's EXACTLY what applies in the question that was asked.
And a clear beat pattern that's subdivided cleanly is no problem at
all to follow. Random hand waving, sure, that's ALWAYS difficult to
follow, but it isn't good conducting, either.
Who is talking about random hand waving?
I'd even be tempted to go with mostly 4/4, use tuplets, and let the
music fall where it needs to go.
Sorry, not at the tempo specified. Now if all is going well I might
indeed lighten or even remove the subdivision pulses. Any sensitive
conductor who understands which level of pulse is most important
would do the same. And one of the worst habits music education
students can fall into is excessive subdivision, which just slows
the music down and makes it heavy.
When you are dealing with amorphous music, there are very good
reasons to notate it in a simple meter such as 4/4. The music cuts
across the bar lines and doesn't follow the strong/weak beat pattern,
but the steady meter keeps things easier to rehearse. The 4/4 is just
a way to keep the ensemble together and to know where you are in the
piece. Once you move into a different rhythmic conception, sure, use
the meters (or non-meters) that make the most sense musically.
In this particular case, I still would look at the option of writing
the moving 8ths as quarters (or half notes even) and putting it into
something like 4/4, but I would probably recommend better options if
I saw the actual score (or pre-score).
Sorry to react so negatively, Randolph, but that's really the way I
feel about it. Nothing personal.
We hear a lot on this list from engravers, arrangers, and performers.
And that's all good and useful information, especially to composers.
But composers have notational ideas and issues that need to be
considered as well.
There are many ways to notate rhythmically amorphous music and we've
seen plenty of successful and less successful examples over the past
hundred or so years. Those notations sometimes get in the way of
learning how to perform the music. On the other hand, sometimes a
strange or difficult notation is paramount to understanding and
performing the piece. Unless there is a strong reason to do
otherwise, for practical reasons I recommend notating it simply (and
only as simple or complex as it needs to be) and get over the fact
that it might conflict with what some of us learned in elementary
school.
-Randolph Peters
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Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On May 1, 2007, at 10:22 PM, John Howell wrote: You've had some awfully good advice. I'd just like to ask why you're curious about how to conduct it? Any first-semester conducting student could answer the question. And do pay attention to David Fenton's comments. The meter chosen should fit the music. If it's in 12, then 12/8 is appropriate. If it's some kind of mixed meter, it might not be. John Thank you John, I appreciate that anyone could probably answer my question; This 120 measure section is without a consistent pulse. It has tension and relaxation, it rises and falls, but it is very amorphous. I ended up re-notating it in 3/8 which pays no attention to were resolutions occur or to where new phrases begin, but that said, at this slow tempo, it is absolutely clear by the beat pattern, where you are in the 3/8 measure. The notes form phrases witch any sensitive person can play expressively, but in a simple 3/8 meter everyone will be together. This has worked out to be a good solution for this piece, I believe. I would rather err in favor of clarity of "where we are" than worry about indicating where the stressed beats should be. thanks again to all. Tim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
At 2:26 PM -0500 5/1/07, Randolph Peters wrote: It's been my experience that conductors do not like long measures of slow tempo. OH? conductors do what is necessary to serve the music. I can't imagine what such a generalization could have grown out of. Making twice as many measures in 6/8 is better than longer measures of 12/8 at 1/8 = 50 MM. If the music is in 6, that's true. If it's in 12 it isn't. You can't just manipulate the math without considering the music and its natural phrasing. In fact the phrasing IS the music, not just one dam note after another. Even though it makes no difference mathematically, it helps with the beating patterns and the score/part reading. It makes a huge difference. Did you miss the day in elementary school when they explained the placement of strong and weak beats in a measure? A musician can discern much easier where you are with 6 beats rather than 12. (I'm assuming that the 4 beats of three pulses does not apply here.) Huh? That's EXACTLY what applies in the question that was asked. And a clear beat pattern that's subdivided cleanly is no problem at all to follow. Random hand waving, sure, that's ALWAYS difficult to follow, but it isn't good conducting, either. I'd even be tempted to go with mostly 4/4, use tuplets, and let the music fall where it needs to go. Sorry, not at the tempo specified. Now if all is going well I might indeed lighten or even remove the subdivision pulses. Any sensitive conductor who understands which level of pulse is most important would do the same. And one of the worst habits music education students can fall into is excessive subdivision, which just slows the music down and makes it heavy. Sorry to react so negatively, Randolph, but that's really the way I feel about it. Nothing personal. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
At 2:15 PM -0400 5/1/07, timothy.key.price wrote: If there are some on this list who might offer some advice, I have a question: A section of amorphous music for stings is now in 12/8 time at 1/8-50 which is very slow and no beat is stressed. As each of the many voice lines moves on a different beat, the 12/8 allows for this type of writing, however, I have no idea how it would be conducted. A similar example might be the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 6th, although his repeated string patterns lend it structural definition: he consistently divides the measure into 4 pulses. Is 12/8 a problem? is it usually conducted in 3 sets of 4/8 per measure? or 4 sets of 3/8, or 2 sets of 6/8? or all of the above are possible. Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter and increase the note value? Help/ lost. Thank you in advance, You've had some awfully good advice. I'd just like to ask why you're curious about how to conduct it? Any first-semester conducting student could answer the question. And do pay attention to David Fenton's comments. The meter chosen should fit the music. If it's in 12, then 12/8 is appropriate. If it's some kind of mixed meter, it might not be. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Having just recently performed Beethoven's Sixth Symphony I have an additional comment on the 12/8 movement. When you start to subdivide the measure into 12 pulses the tempo will drag. Many years ago I recall my conducting professor standing at my elbow and saying many times, "Don't subdivide; it makes the orchestra slow down". Experience has shown him to have been correct. When you need to slow things down, sub-divide. When you need the tempo to pick-up, make the pattern smaller and increase the sharpness of the ictus. It works (almost) every time! Guy Hayden -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Cook Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 2:59 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 12/8 is usually conducted in 4, or if it's extremely slow each beat is subdivided into three. The slow movement of Beethoven's 6th Symphony (Beethoven's MM being dotted quarter = 50) is conducted in 4. 12/8 is never conducted in 3 sets of 4/8: if the measures are rhythmically so divided, the time signature should be 3/2. If the tempo of your piece is eighth note = 50, it would have to be conducted with subdivided beats. This is OK, but many conductors, including myself, find long passges of subdivided 12/8 rather tiresome: you might try cutting it into shorter measures. Best wishes, Michael On 1 May 2007, at 20:15, timothy.key.price wrote: > If there are some on this list who might offer some advice, I have > a question: A section of amorphous music for stings is now in 12/8 > time at 1/8-50 which is very slow and no beat is stressed. As > each of the many voice lines moves on a different beat, the 12/8 > allows for this type of writing, however, I have no idea how it > would be conducted. A similar example might be the 2nd movement of > Beethoven's 6th, although his repeated string patterns lend it > structural definition: he consistently divides the measure into 4 > pulses. Is 12/8 a problem? is it usually conducted in 3 sets of > 4/8 per measure? or 4 sets of 3/8, or 2 sets of 6/8? or all of the > above are possible. > Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter > and increase the note value? Help/ lost. > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Thanks to everyone who replied. I have a very much clearer understanding of the issues so can resolve it with the better notation, now that I understand the alternatives. It was a new situation for me; it had evolved and hadn't really considered it much before. Thank you again, tim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay
Man, I've tried saying "comfortable" several times, and I always get 4 syllables. Sorry. Dean On May 1, 2007, at 1:13 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:05 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote: At 00:36 -0700 4/30/07, Mark D Lew wrote: Suppose your lyric has "comfortable" and you want it to be sung in the common way on three syllables, how would you spell/ hyphenate that? com-forta-ble. Similarly with "Wednes-day" and so on. I see no need to introduce apostrophes into words that don't have them, since the desired pronunciation is immediately obvious from the context. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, "Lift Tab to Open." Then, "To Close, Insert Tab Here ." Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay
I would respectfully disagree. The sound (sans the "r") Marshall does in fact espouse, the [3], when sung by any culture, if it is pure, to my ear does not sound British or affected. I've listened really carefully to my choirs and other American choirs sing most all styles of music, and when Marshall's "rules" are followed, good things happen, without affectation. At least this is my experience. As I say, respectfully submitted. Dean On May 1, 2007, at 12:22 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Apr 30, 2007, at 5:02 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Good point ... Marshall uses "learn" as the vowel sound model. Dean On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:46 PM, John Howell wrote: Well, I don't know IPA, but could you describe what you mean by [3] by analogy with other standard English words. Otherwise I can't tell what you're suggesting. John At 12:38 PM -0700 4/30/07, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: On Apr 29, 2007, at 4:24 PM, John Howell wrote: Madeleine Marshall informs, "Never sing "r" before a consonant. (p. 9) So, she would have the singers pronounce bird as" b[3] d." I.e., she would maintain that the ONLY vowel in said example is [3], and that the "r" sound does not exist. This approach has worked fine with all my choirs. There is huge confusion going on here between the British and American pronunciations of -er. In American, words like bird and learn are pronounced with a vocalic r--that is, the letter r is extended, the written vowel is suppressed, and the sound r *is* the vowel. In British, it is the r that is suppressed, and the vowel is pronounced as a phoneme that simply doesn't exist in American, but that is close to the vowel in "bush." Madeleine Marshall, quoted above, prefers the British pronunciation--which I imagine would sound a bit affected in an American text. Imagine: "The most beautiful sound I evah heud: Maria (Maria Maria) All the beautiful sounds in the weuld in a single weud: Maria (Maria Maria)" Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, "Lift Tab to Open." Then, "To Close, Insert Tab Here ." Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Hyphenating text underlay
At 3:58 PM -0400 5/1/07, Christopher Smith wrote: John Howell wrote: For us that don't actively pronounce the "r" in words, "girl" is pronounced with a neutral vowel. The r isn't heard at all. I'm not sure who wrote that, but Andrew misquoted; it was not I. Especially if you're from "Joisey" (New Jersey) where they might say "goil". 8-) One of the more extreme American dialects, but there you are! John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay
With three syllables I'm afraid I would pronounce that as comf'-ta-ble. (And I am more comfortable using the apostrophe in this instance). John R On 5/1/07 4:13 PM, "Andrew Stiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:05 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote: > >> >> At 00:36 -0700 4/30/07, Mark D Lew wrote: >>> Suppose your lyric has "comfortable" and you want it to be sung in >>> the common way on three syllables, how would you spell/hyphenate >>> that? >> > > com-forta-ble. Similarly with "Wednes-day" and so on. I see no need to > introduce apostrophes into words that don't have them, since the > desired pronunciation is immediately obvious from the context. > > Andrew Stiller > Kallisti Music Press > http://www.kallistimusic.com/ > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Hyphenating text underlay
John Howell wrote: For us that don't actively pronounce the "r" in words, "girl" is pronounced with a neutral vowel. The r isn't heard at all. Especially if you're from "Joisey" (New Jersey) where they might say "goil". 8-) My favourite sung "r" is in Flanders and Swann's "Pee, Poo, Belly, Bum, Drawers", where the last word is drawn out as a sus4-3-2-3 on the final chord, distorting the diphthong until it begs for mercy, to hilarious effect. Of course, these are the guys who rhymed "horn" with "gone", so anything is possible. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay
On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:05 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote: At 00:36 -0700 4/30/07, Mark D Lew wrote: Suppose your lyric has "comfortable" and you want it to be sung in the common way on three syllables, how would you spell/hyphenate that? com-forta-ble. Similarly with "Wednes-day" and so on. I see no need to introduce apostrophes into words that don't have them, since the desired pronunciation is immediately obvious from the context. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay
On May 1, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Ken Moore wrote: Does anyone else out there say "eye-ruhn"? I don't know about that, but I was startled to hear the first D in "Wednesday" pronounced by whatever famous actress it was that did the voiceover in that movie about the guy who discovers he's a character in a book. And let's not get started on "February." Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 1-May-07, at 3:26 PM, Randolph Peters wrote: timothy.key.price wrote: If there are some on this list who might offer some advice, I have a question: A section of amorphous music for stings is now in 12/8 time at 1/8-50 which is very slow and no beat is stressed. [snip] Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter and increase the note value? Help/ lost. It's been my experience that conductors do not like long measures of slow tempo. Making twice as many measures in 6/8 is better than longer measures of 12/8 at 1/8 = 50 MM. Even though it makes no difference mathematically, it helps with the beating patterns and the score/part reading. A musician can discern much easier where you are with 6 beats rather than 12. (I'm assuming that the 4 beats of three pulses does not apply here.) Whatever you go with, make sure the notation reflects the beating. There is nothing worse than having one thing on the page, and a contradictory beat going on in your face. Someone mentioned that 3 groups of 4 eighths would be best notated in 3/2, which I would agree with. I think many conductors can deal with long slow measures, whether they like it or not. Or maybe I'm spoiled (our conductor in the Sherbrooke Symphony is very good, and I have played under him for a long time now.) I'd even be tempted to go with mostly 4/4, use tuplets, and let the music fall where it needs to go. I wouldn't go that far. The notation needs to reflect the music. Eighth notes at 50 BPM are going to be horrendous as a tuplet. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Hyphenating text underlay
On Apr 30, 2007, at 6:16 PM, Matthew Hindson fastmail acct wrote: John Howell wrote: For us that don't actively pronounce the "r" in words, "girl" is pronounced with a neutral vowel. The r isn't heard at all. Similarly for "fire". In such occasions it may well be worth hyphenating as "fi-re" since heaps of English speakers otherwise won't sing it as two syllables, if that is your intention. The analogy doesn't follow. Auden's rhyming of fire w. Messiah shows that British poetry divides "fire" as often as American, pronouncing it fi-ah. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
timothy.key.price wrote: If there are some on this list who might offer some advice, I have a question: A section of amorphous music for stings is now in 12/8 time at 1/8-50 which is very slow and no beat is stressed. [snip] Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter and increase the note value? Help/ lost. It's been my experience that conductors do not like long measures of slow tempo. Making twice as many measures in 6/8 is better than longer measures of 12/8 at 1/8 = 50 MM. Even though it makes no difference mathematically, it helps with the beating patterns and the score/part reading. A musician can discern much easier where you are with 6 beats rather than 12. (I'm assuming that the 4 beats of three pulses does not apply here.) I'd even be tempted to go with mostly 4/4, use tuplets, and let the music fall where it needs to go. -Randolph Peters ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay
On Apr 30, 2007, at 5:02 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Good point ... Marshall uses "learn" as the vowel sound model. Dean On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:46 PM, John Howell wrote: Well, I don't know IPA, but could you describe what you mean by [3] by analogy with other standard English words. Otherwise I can't tell what you're suggesting. John At 12:38 PM -0700 4/30/07, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: On Apr 29, 2007, at 4:24 PM, John Howell wrote: Madeleine Marshall informs, "Never sing "r" before a consonant. (p. 9) So, she would have the singers pronounce bird as" b[3]d." I.e., she would maintain that the ONLY vowel in said example is [3], and that the "r" sound does not exist. This approach has worked fine with all my choirs. There is huge confusion going on here between the British and American pronunciations of -er. In American, words like bird and learn are pronounced with a vocalic r--that is, the letter r is extended, the written vowel is suppressed, and the sound r *is* the vowel. In British, it is the r that is suppressed, and the vowel is pronounced as a phoneme that simply doesn't exist in American, but that is close to the vowel in "bush." Madeleine Marshall, quoted above, prefers the British pronunciation--which I imagine would sound a bit affected in an American text. Imagine: "The most beautiful sound I evah heud: Maria (Maria Maria) All the beautiful sounds in the weuld in a single weud: Maria (Maria Maria)" Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
The opening of the Firebird is another case of beating 12s. From the other side of the stand, I've encountered some bizarre and meaningless hand-waving. My preference is for a large slow 4-beat motion, each step of which is divided with two smaller beats to indicate the quaver motion. This avoids having more than one downbeat per bar (which is a killer if you get lost!), and keeps the compound structure of the metre intact. The latter point is important - 12/8 conventionally implies a division into four large beats. If you want to avoid this interpretation, avoid 12/8. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of timothy.key.price > Sent: 01 May 2007 19:16 > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 > > > If there are some on this list who might offer some advice, I have a > question: A section of amorphous music for stings is now in 12/8 > time at 1/8-50 which is very slow and no beat is stressed. As > each of the many voice lines moves on a different beat, the 12/8 > allows for this type of writing, however, I have no idea how > it would > be conducted. A similar example might be the 2nd movement of > Beethoven's 6th, although his repeated string patterns lend it > structural definition: he consistently divides the measure into 4 > pulses. Is 12/8 a problem? is it usually conducted in 3 > sets of 4/8 > per measure? or 4 sets of 3/8, or 2 sets of 6/8? or all of > the above > are possible. > Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter > and increase the note value? Help/ lost. > > Thank you in advance, > > > Tim > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
12/8 is usually conducted in 4, or if it's extremely slow each beat is subdivided into three. The slow movement of Beethoven's 6th Symphony (Beethoven's MM being dotted quarter = 50) is conducted in 4. 12/8 is never conducted in 3 sets of 4/8: if the measures are rhythmically so divided, the time signature should be 3/2. If the tempo of your piece is eighth note = 50, it would have to be conducted with subdivided beats. This is OK, but many conductors, including myself, find long passges of subdivided 12/8 rather tiresome: you might try cutting it into shorter measures. Best wishes, Michael On 1 May 2007, at 20:15, timothy.key.price wrote: If there are some on this list who might offer some advice, I have a question: A section of amorphous music for stings is now in 12/8 time at 1/8-50 which is very slow and no beat is stressed. As each of the many voice lines moves on a different beat, the 12/8 allows for this type of writing, however, I have no idea how it would be conducted. A similar example might be the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 6th, although his repeated string patterns lend it structural definition: he consistently divides the measure into 4 pulses. Is 12/8 a problem? is it usually conducted in 3 sets of 4/8 per measure? or 4 sets of 3/8, or 2 sets of 6/8? or all of the above are possible. Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter and increase the note value? Help/ lost. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 1 May 2007 at 14:15, timothy.key.price wrote: > Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter > and increase the note value? Yes. If it's not in 12/8, don't notate it in 12/8. Putting it in 12/8 means that there *is* an emphasis on 4 beats of dotted quarter. If there isn't, then you've chosen the wrong meter for notation. This kind of thing isn't really that hard to figure out, seems to me. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 1-May-07, at 2:15 PM, timothy.key.price wrote: If there are some on this list who might offer some advice, I have a question: A section of amorphous music for stings is now in 12/8 time at 1/8-50 which is very slow and no beat is stressed. As each of the many voice lines moves on a different beat, the 12/8 allows for this type of writing, however, I have no idea how it would be conducted. A similar example might be the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 6th, although his repeated string patterns lend it structural definition: he consistently divides the measure into 4 pulses. Is 12/8 a problem? is it usually conducted in 3 sets of 4/8 per measure? or 4 sets of 3/8, or 2 sets of 6/8? or all of the above are possible. Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter and increase the note value? Help/ lost. Depends on the music, but 12/8 is almost always divided into 4 groups of 3, so it would best be conducted in a 4 pattern as follows: 1 (bounce, bounce) 2 (bounce, bounce) 3 (bounce, bounce) 4 (bounce, bounce). Your piece may be different, but that's the default. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Conducting in 12/8
If there are some on this list who might offer some advice, I have a question: A section of amorphous music for stings is now in 12/8 time at 1/8-50 which is very slow and no beat is stressed. As each of the many voice lines moves on a different beat, the 12/8 allows for this type of writing, however, I have no idea how it would be conducted. A similar example might be the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 6th, although his repeated string patterns lend it structural definition: he consistently divides the measure into 4 pulses. Is 12/8 a problem? is it usually conducted in 3 sets of 4/8 per measure? or 4 sets of 3/8, or 2 sets of 6/8? or all of the above are possible. Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter and increase the note value? Help/ lost. Thank you in advance, Tim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay
On 1-May-07, at 1:05 PM, John Howell wrote: I think part of the problem is that when people think of singing an "r," they automatically think of the hard Canadian or upper Midwestern "r," which is very tense and blocks the sound with a raised middle of the tongue. And then they demonstrate it that way, and of COURSE it sounds ugly and unmusical! Notwithstanding, I'm sure you mean to say, the numerous fine Canadian pop, folk and jazz singers who pronounce Canadian "r"s and manage to sound beautiful and musical doing it? 8-) Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac
On 1 May 2007 at 13:39, Phil Daley wrote (nothing quoted here): > At 5/1/2007 01:13 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > > >On 1 May 2007 at 6:34, Phil Daley wrote: > >> On a windows pc, the screen display is much worse than your > >> original post. > > > >It's no different on my screen! I haven't done a file compare, but > >the file is exactly the same size as the original > >(though not the irst thing I posted). Turns out they weren't the same size, after all -- victim of Windows Explorer rounding. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac
At 5/1/2007 01:13 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: >On 1 May 2007 at 6:34, Phil Daley wrote: >> On a windows pc, the screen display is much worse than your original >> post. > >It's no different on my screen! I haven't done a file compare, but >the file is exactly the same size as the original (though not the >first thing I posted). My screen is 1600x1200. I am viewing in Adobe at 100%. Viewing at 150% looks better and at 200% looks perfect. BTW: Adobe Version is 7.0.7 if that makes any difference. Phil Daley < AutoDesk > http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac
On 1 May 2007 at 6:34, Phil Daley wrote: > At 4/30/2007 07:45 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > > >I've recreated the PDF optimized for portability (the default was > >optimized for speed), and it's here: > > >http://www.dfenton.com/Collegium/Gibbons/Gibbons-LordGrantGrace2.pdf > > On a windows pc, the screen display is much worse than your original > post. It's no different on my screen! I haven't done a file compare, but the file is exactly the same size as the original (though not the first thing I posted). > >I've also processed that file to optimize it for the Web, and the > >result is here: > > >http://www.dfenton.com/Collegium/Gibbons/Gibbons-LordGrantGrace3.pdf > > Yes, the result looks exactly the same as above, ie. worse than the > original. Screen display doesn't worry me. Acrobat Reader badly regressed in screen display after version 6. Of course, it improved in speed, so it's a sad trade-off. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay
At 8:08 PM -0700 4/30/07, Mark D Lew wrote: On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:46 PM, John Howell wrote: Well, I don't know IPA, but could you describe what you mean by [3] by analogy with other standard English words. Otherwise I can't tell what you're suggesting. Well if you don't know IPA you probably also won't know what it means if I say "unrounded open-mid central" or "non-rhotic accent". You've got THAT right!! I gather you've figured out by now that [3] is the vowel sound in "bird" as it is pronounced by someone with a proper British accent. (Think Julie Andrews.) It's sort of like a schwa, or the "oo" in "book", or the "eu" in "chanteuse", but it's not identical to any of them. I can imagine that, yes, but I would not use it. In fact I can't imagine wanting to coach a British accent outside a theatrical production, proper or improper! You're a choral director, aren't you, John? Yup. Which means I'm painfully aware of the problems involved in sung English, even without attempting to capture dialect. A special pet peeve of mine is the word "perilous" in The Star Spangled Banner. With the Southwest Virginia (read "country") accent around here, people invariably try to sing the "i" as a schwa--"per-uh-luhs"--which I hate, and I have to coach them to use a short "i"--"pe-rih-luhs." More than half the vowels in English--all of the unstressed ones--migrate toward schwa in speech, but sound entirely wrong when SUNG as schwa. Suppose you're preparing your chorus for something that wants a decidedly British sound, like Gilbert & Sullivan or Benjamin Britten, and you have a long held note on "heard" or "world" or "pearl" or "early" or "virgin". What vowel do you ask for? That's your [3]. It's not just for singing, it's a standard vowel in the pronunciation of the King's English, whether spoken or sung. We don't use it in American pronunciation. Well, as I said, I would not attempt to coach dialect, probably not in G&S, absolutely not in Britten. At least not here in Southwest Virginia! I greatly respect actors who CAN switch dialects at the drop of a hat, and one of the most amazing things I've heard is the movie in which Peter Sellers speaks throughout in a perfect, flat, American accent. I think part of the problem is that when people think of singing an "r," they automatically think of the hard Canadian or upper Midwestern "r," which is very tense and blocks the sound with a raised middle of the tongue. And then they demonstrate it that way, and of COURSE it sounds ugly and unmusical! But "r" can be sustained with a low and relaxed tongue and can indeed function as a sustained sound (I hesitate to say vowel, but in effect that's what it is). Yup, theological discussion all right. The human vocal mechanism is capable of an infinite variety of sounds, and someone, somewhere uses all of them!!! Now, whatever happened to hyphenation??? John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay
A good point, with which I concur most ha-tih-lee. Dean On May 1, 2007, at 1:15 AM, Mark D Lew wrote: On Apr 30, 2007, at 8:55 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: I would and do ask for that vowel even if we aren't doing G&S, or whatever. It just sings well to eliminate the "r", and to my American ear, does not sound at all affected, unless you speak it, not sing it. If one is doing Sprectstimme (sp?) with English, then I don't know what approach would be taken. I too would tend to ask for the British [3] vowel for r in almost any classical music sung in English. I would not, however, ask for it in any pop songs, old or new, nor in any opera which is decidedly American, like Susannah, Baby Doe, Down in the Valley, or Porgy & Bess. mdl very amused imagining Sam singing "Jayb[3]d sittin' on a hick'ry limb..." ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, "Lift Tab to Open." Then, "To Close, Insert Tab Here ." Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay
When I speak, I also say, "eye-urn." I would direct my choir to sing, "ah-ih-ruhn." The difference being the treatment of the diphthong on the first syllable. I think I picked that mode up from Shaw, as a part of his (and mine) never-ending battle to exhort choirs to differentiate between our speaking lives and our singing lives. Dean On May 1, 2007, at 7:33 AM, Ken Moore wrote: Mark D Lew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Side note: Personally, I pronounce "i-ron" like "eye-ruhn" even in ordinary speech, and it is a source of ongoing amusement to my wife to point out that everyone else in the world says "eye-urn". Surely I'm not the only one. Does anyone else out there say "eye- ruhn"? Not exactly, but "eye-ron" is the standard pronunciation in Walton's "Belshazzar's Feast", IIRC. John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: OK, there's an up tempo madrigal that starts "Fi-re, fi-re" at some length. If you mean the Morley, ISTR that the original spelling was "Fyer, fyer". -- Ken Moore ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, "Lift Tab to Open." Then, "To Close, Insert Tab Here ." Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay
Mark D Lew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Side note: Personally, I pronounce "i-ron" like "eye-ruhn" even in ordinary speech, and it is a source of ongoing amusement to my wife to point out that everyone else in the world says "eye-urn". Surely I'm not the only one. Does anyone else out there say "eye-ruhn"? Not exactly, but "eye-ron" is the standard pronunciation in Walton's "Belshazzar's Feast", IIRC. John Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: OK, there's an up tempo madrigal that starts "Fi-re, fi-re" at some length. If you mean the Morley, ISTR that the original spelling was "Fyer, fyer". -- Ken Moore ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Strange lines...
I've seen this before, in 2006. I don't remember now what I did to solve it, but it was something unexpected yet totally logical in retrospect. I hadn't scanned anything, though. It also appears in Scroll View with measure 20 as the left-most measure. Furthermore, the dashes (it looks like the hyphen character, I thought it was an extended hyphen, like between syllables) stay the same size even when the view gets bigger (say, 200% or 400%). I don't have time to look at the .MUS in detail right now, but I will today at some point. Christopher On May 1, 2007, at 8:01 AM, Bernard Nussbaumer wrote: Hi all, I got strange lines appearing and disappearing without any logical reason. I found a solution to my problem (see below), but can't understand where these lines come from. If you have twenty seconds, have a look on this: http://ju.educanet2.ch/bernard.nussbaumer/Finale/strange_lines.jpg The lines I'm talking about are just above the second system. If you have two minutes (or more...), get this excerpt of the file and test yourself: http://ju.educanet2.ch/bernard.nussbaumer/Finale/strange_lines.MUS You get these lines appear on the Trumpet 1 Part, just above the second system. Strange is...: - you get them only on Page View (and, yes, they do get printed...!) - erase everything in the second system (measures 20-29): the lines are still there - remove measure 19: the lines disappear, as they do if you delete everything in measure 19 (also the problem is here...) - make the last measure of the 1st system (#19) go to system 2: the lines disappear (funny, isn't it?) ; they come back if you put measure 19 back to 1st system - With the "Selection Tool" selected, try to select these lines by clicking once on them: you may get a purple rectangle around the lines (but you can't do anything of it). Click twice: the Lyrics Tool gets selected (funny again). And you still can't do anything with that... - and so on... What I did to have that: - (Win Fin 2k7c) I needed to transpose a score. I scanned it, read it with "Sharpeye", imported the file in Finale (xml). I regularly do that kind of job; I remember having had the same problem only once. To get rid of the lines - my solution: 1. Mass Edit Tool. Select Measure 19. 2. Mass Edit / Clear Items : check only "Smart shapes (assigned to measures)" in the Measure Items. OK. To be deducted: from the xml file, Finale has misunderstood anything, and made it as some kind of "smart shape" (even if you can't select it with the "Smart Shape Tool"!!!). I'm nearly happy, as I found a solution; it would be a great pleasure to undertand what did happen. Maybe the problem could be avoided. Your explanation: - - - Thanks in advance!!! Bernard ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Strange lines...
Hi all, I got strange lines appearing and disappearing without any logical reason. I found a solution to my problem (see below), but can't understand where these lines come from. If you have twenty seconds, have a look on this: http://ju.educanet2.ch/bernard.nussbaumer/Finale/strange_lines.jpg The lines I'm talking about are just above the second system. If you have two minutes (or more...), get this excerpt of the file and test yourself: http://ju.educanet2.ch/bernard.nussbaumer/Finale/strange_lines.MUS You get these lines appear on the Trumpet 1 Part, just above the second system. Strange is...: - you get them only on Page View (and, yes, they do get printed...!) - erase everything in the second system (measures 20-29): the lines are still there - remove measure 19: the lines disappear, as they do if you delete everything in measure 19 (also the problem is here...) - make the last measure of the 1st system (#19) go to system 2: the lines disappear (funny, isn't it?) ; they come back if you put measure 19 back to 1st system - With the "Selection Tool" selected, try to select these lines by clicking once on them: you may get a purple rectangle around the lines (but you can't do anything of it). Click twice: the Lyrics Tool gets selected (funny again). And you still can't do anything with that... - and so on... What I did to have that: - (Win Fin 2k7c) I needed to transpose a score. I scanned it, read it with "Sharpeye", imported the file in Finale (xml). I regularly do that kind of job; I remember having had the same problem only once. To get rid of the lines - my solution: 1. Mass Edit Tool. Select Measure 19. 2. Mass Edit / Clear Items : check only "Smart shapes (assigned to measures)" in the Measure Items. OK. To be deducted: from the xml file, Finale has misunderstood anything, and made it as some kind of "smart shape" (even if you can't select it with the "Smart Shape Tool"!!!). I'm nearly happy, as I found a solution; it would be a great pleasure to undertand what did happen. Maybe the problem could be avoided. Your explanation: - - - Thanks in advance!!! Bernard ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Music in the stones of Rosslyn Chapel?
At 4/30/2007 06:04 PM, John Howell wrote: >I wish someone could explain about YouTube to me. Every time I >follow a link there, it seems to take over my computer and i can't DO >anything. I can't even make it stop without forcing my browser to >quit. Mostly I get a spinning color wheel, visuals (sometimes) that >are jerky and not connected to the audio, and no way to tell what I'm >actually hearing as it seems to jump around at random. Shesh!!! It downloads a video. You have to have a fast I-net connection to not be stuck for minutes not able to do anything. It also depends on processor speed, whether the downloading video in the background sucks up all your computer cycles. Phil Daley < AutoDesk > http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Test of a PDF on Mac
At 4/30/2007 07:45 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: >I've recreated the PDF optimized for portability (the default was >optimized for speed), and it's here: > >http://www.dfenton.com/Collegium/Gibbons/Gibbons-LordGrantGrace2.pdf On a windows pc, the screen display is much worse than your original post. >I've also processed that file to optimize it for the Web, and the >result is here: > >http://www.dfenton.com/Collegium/Gibbons/Gibbons-LordGrantGrace3.pdf Yes, the result looks exactly the same as above, ie. worse than the original. Phil Daley < AutoDesk > http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Music in the stones of Rosslyn Chapel?
Seeing that the Mitchells do not wish to explain themselves in detail - you have to buy the book and CD - it sounds like a money-making venture to me. I know a lot of fifteenth century music and the Mitchells' sample sounds more like Arvo Part's tintinnabulations. However, they would be correct to use pythagorean temperament, but their thirds would be noticeably sharp if they actually had used it. Pythagorean temperament, based on the pure fifth, was still described as the way to tune instruments by Martin Agricola in the sixteenth century and the absence of thirds at cadences is an indication that pythagorean temperament might have been used. That knowledge of harmonics would have been considered heretical by the church is nonsense. Music was part of the quadrivium and the monochord was used to explain the proportions of each interval. It is intrguing that some of the carved patterns have similarities with standing waves on metal plates. 15th century theorists could certainly have discovered this, although there is no other evidence to support the claim that they actually did. Also, the carvings would have more likely have been the whims of the carvers, who would not have had any knowledge of music theory. Regards, Michael Lawlor mail2web.com What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay
On Apr 30, 2007, at 8:55 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: I would and do ask for that vowel even if we aren't doing G&S, or whatever. It just sings well to eliminate the "r", and to my American ear, does not sound at all affected, unless you speak it, not sing it. If one is doing Sprectstimme (sp?) with English, then I don't know what approach would be taken. I too would tend to ask for the British [3] vowel for r in almost any classical music sung in English. I would not, however, ask for it in any pop songs, old or new, nor in any opera which is decidedly American, like Susannah, Baby Doe, Down in the Valley, or Porgy & Bess. mdl very amused imagining Sam singing "Jayb[3]d sittin' on a hick'ry limb..." ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
