Re: [Finale] harp pedal diagram

[toronado455]

On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 1:56 PM, John Howell  wrote:

>   There are at least 2 active harpists (and teachers) on the SibList, and
>> their consensus is that harpists would much prefer to enter their own
>> diagrams, in the forms they prefer, and put them where they want them.
>>  Unless you are an experienced harpist yourself, the better part of valor
>> might be to avoid putting in your own.
>>
>> John
>>
>
I agree.
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Re: [Finale] harp pedal diagram

[toronado455]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Aaron Sherber  wrote:

> On 9/11/2009 9:48 PM, toronado...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Anyone use the engraver text fonts to do graphical harp pedal diagrams?
>> (O,
>> shift -O, P, shift -P)
>>
>
> A much better solution is Matthew Hindson's freeware Harp Pedal font:
>
> 
>
> I've used this for a few projects and been very pleased.
>
> Aaron.
>
Thanks for the link. I tried it out and decided it is good, but I like the
engraver font a bit better.
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Re: [Finale] TAN: use of "subito"

[arabushk]

There are some that come from the school that any "subito" change is bad
taste, and that new levels need to be gradually moved into. Subito says
"no diminuendo/crescendo/accellerando/ritard." Sometimes it's even
observed as such.

You can also check out Rimsky-Korsakov's orchestration book for some tips
on balancing wind instruments.

ajr

> Lee Actor wrote:
>>> Working on a piece for large ensemble. The composer has a passage
>>> for woodwinds at forte. Immediately after the WW finish, the
>>> brass comes in at mezzo piano. The composer has marked "mp
>>> subito" in the brass parts, but I think the inclusion of subito
>>> is unnecessary since the brass haven't been playing before
>>> this.What's your opinion?
>>> ___
>>
>> I think the principle of "the clearer the better" is appropriate here.
>> The
>> brass aren't playing, but they're sitting there listening to the WW
>> playing
>> forte, and it certainly can't hurt to emphasize that their mp does
>> represent
>> a sudden change.
>>
>
> Anybody sitting listening to woodwinds playing forte and
> seeing an MP in their parts who doesn't know it's a sudden
> change isn't a very good musician, and if I were in that
> group as a performer I wouldn't think much of a composer who
> thought so little of my musicianship that he felt he had to
> tell me that mezzo-piano is a sudden change from forte.
>
> I agree that "the clearer the better" in most situations,
> but I also adhere to the principle "over explanation doesn't
> make things clearer."
>
> I can envision the rehearsal where the brass stops the music
> and asks the conductor "What does subito mp mean when we
> haven't been playing?"
>
> Too little clarification in the notation is a bad thing, but
> so is too much clarification.
>
> --
> David H. Bailey
> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> ___
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>


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Re: [Finale] TAN: use of "subito"

[Dean M. Estabrook]

Yeah, probably superfluous,  but maybe he just wanted to give an  
extra "wake up call" to the brass, to be sure there was a  
differentiation with what they were going to do.


Dean

On Sep 17, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Noel Stoutenburg wrote:


Ryan Beard wrote:
Working on a piece for large ensemble. The composer has a passage  
for woodwinds at forte. Immediately after the WW finish, the brass  
comes in at mezzo piano. The composer has marked "mp subito" in  
the brass parts, but I think the inclusion of subito is  
unnecessary since the brass haven't been playing before  
this.What's your opinion?
I'd concur that the subito seems superfluous. However, my real  
opinion is that the proper course of action here is to tell the  
composer that your understanding of the use of "subito" was not  
consistent with his use at the point in question, and ask him to  
teach you (and that is the verb I'd actually use here) why he  
considered the word necessary. The possibilities are endless: he  
may actually have intended the marking to be someplace else; he may  
have meant some other modifier and put this one by mistake; or .


ns
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Canto ergo sum
And,
I'd rather be composing than decomposing

Dean M. Estabrook
http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home





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Re: [Finale] TAN: use of "subito"

[Christopher Smith]

On Sep 17, 2009, at 6:25 PM, Ryan Beard wrote:

Working on a piece for large ensemble. The composer has a passage  
for woodwinds at forte. Immediately after the WW finish, the brass  
comes in at mezzo piano. The composer has marked "mp subito" in the  
brass parts, but I think the inclusion of subito is unnecessary  
since the brass haven't been playing before this.What's your opinion?


I've seen two types of markings: those that tell the player what to  
do and those that communicate the overall dynamic. Mostly we see the  
first type (so flutes might be marked F and the brass MP in the same  
passage, to make it balance) but sometimes we see an overall dynamic  
and have to balance ourselves (so we might all be marked MF and the  
flutes play F and the brass play MP anyway.)


I see no problem with subito mp in a part that hasn't played yet,  
because musicians are listening to one another and might be inclined  
to follow the dynamic they hear REGARDLESS of what is marked.  
Dynamics are not set decibel levels like the Finale playback would  
have us believe; they are subject to interpretation by the performers  
(with help from the conductor, if he gives it!)


I'm with Lee here (seemingly against the general consensus).

Christopher


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RE: [Finale] TAN: use of "subito"

[Lee Actor]

Hey, I agree that it's not technically necessary.  I wouldn't write it
myself.  But I don't consider it incorrect, or even unnecessarily cluttered
(and I'm a big proponent of removing unnecessary clutter).  I do sympathize
with the (apparent) attempt to induce the players to play the piece, not
just their parts.  I agree that "sub. mp" after a rest is a bit strange; but
keep in mind that the brass do not necessarily know the WW are playing forte
(as opposed to, say, mf), and it should not be automatically assumed that
they know how much contrast their mp represents (yes, that's the conductor's
job).  My approach would be to make sure the brass had a cue for the WW,
including their dynamic marking.  But I think it's likely the conductor will
have to tweak the balance bet. WW and brass via verbal instructions, no
matter how the parts are marked.

-Lee

> >> Working on a piece for large ensemble. The composer has a passage
> >> for woodwinds at forte. Immediately after the WW finish, the
> >> brass comes in at mezzo piano. The composer has marked "mp
> >> subito" in the brass parts, but I think the inclusion of subito
> >> is unnecessary since the brass haven't been playing before
> >> this.What's your opinion?
> >> ___
> >
> > I think the principle of "the clearer the better" is
> appropriate here.  The
> > brass aren't playing, but they're sitting there listening to
> the WW playing
> > forte, and it certainly can't hurt to emphasize that their mp
> does represent
> > a sudden change.
> >
>
> Anybody sitting listening to woodwinds playing forte and
> seeing an MP in their parts who doesn't know it's a sudden
> change isn't a very good musician, and if I were in that
> group as a performer I wouldn't think much of a composer who
> thought so little of my musicianship that he felt he had to
> tell me that mezzo-piano is a sudden change from forte.
>
> I agree that "the clearer the better" in most situations,
> but I also adhere to the principle "over explanation doesn't
> make things clearer."
>
> I can envision the rehearsal where the brass stops the music
> and asks the conductor "What does subito mp mean when we
> haven't been playing?"
>
> Too little clarification in the notation is a bad thing, but
> so is too much clarification.
>
> --
> David H. Bailey


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Re: [Finale] TAN: use of "subito"

[John Howell]

At 3:25 PM -0700 9/17/09, Ryan Beard wrote:
Working on a piece for large ensemble. The composer has a passage 
for woodwinds at forte. Immediately after the WW finish, the brass 
comes in at mezzo piano. The composer has marked "mp subito" in the 
brass parts, but I think the inclusion of subito is unnecessary 
since the brass haven't been playing before this.What's your opinion?


I come down on the side of leaving it out as redundant and 
potentially confusing, but the suggestion to ask the composer why he 
used it is a smart one (and good interpersonal politics!).


But we need to keep in mind that there is no scientific basis for an 
absolute volume level, measurable in dB, for every dynamic marking. 
A flute's forte is NOT the same SPL as a trumpet's forte, as anyone 
who sits in front of them knows!


And David's comment is an important one.  The woodwinds may have 
forte and the brass mezzo-piano, but ONLY the conductor will see that 
fact, so it's us to him or her to make it happen.  Some composers may 
not realize that marking the melody line mf and the accompaniment p 
means nothing to the players, since they don't see one another's 
music.  I've seen it done countless times.


John


--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"We never play anything the same way once."  Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
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Re: [Finale] TAN: use of "subito"

[dhbailey]

Ryan Beard wrote:

Working on a piece for large ensemble. The composer has a passage for woodwinds at forte. 
Immediately after the WW finish, the brass comes in at mezzo piano. The composer has 
marked "mp subito" in the brass parts, but I think the inclusion of subito is 
unnecessary since the brass haven't been playing before this.What's your opinion?
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It is indeed redundant, since you can't suddenly become 
moderately quiet unless you've been louder before.  And any 
conductor worth his/her salt would work to make that 
contrast happen even without the use of the word subito.


--
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] TAN: use of "subito"

[dhbailey]

Lee Actor wrote:

Working on a piece for large ensemble. The composer has a passage
for woodwinds at forte. Immediately after the WW finish, the
brass comes in at mezzo piano. The composer has marked "mp
subito" in the brass parts, but I think the inclusion of subito
is unnecessary since the brass haven't been playing before
this.What's your opinion?
___


I think the principle of "the clearer the better" is appropriate here.  The
brass aren't playing, but they're sitting there listening to the WW playing
forte, and it certainly can't hurt to emphasize that their mp does represent
a sudden change.



Anybody sitting listening to woodwinds playing forte and 
seeing an MP in their parts who doesn't know it's a sudden 
change isn't a very good musician, and if I were in that 
group as a performer I wouldn't think much of a composer who 
thought so little of my musicianship that he felt he had to 
tell me that mezzo-piano is a sudden change from forte.


I agree that "the clearer the better" in most situations, 
but I also adhere to the principle "over explanation doesn't 
make things clearer."


I can envision the rehearsal where the brass stops the music 
and asks the conductor "What does subito mp mean when we 
haven't been playing?"


Too little clarification in the notation is a bad thing, but 
so is too much clarification.


--
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] TAN: use of "subito"

[Chuck Israels]

I think there's no ambiguity without it, so it's just clutter.

Chuck


On Sep 17, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Ryan Beard wrote:

Working on a piece for large ensemble. The composer has a passage  
for woodwinds at forte. Immediately after the WW finish, the brass  
comes in at mezzo piano. The composer has marked "mp subito" in the  
brass parts, but I think the inclusion of subito is unnecessary  
since the brass haven't been playing before this.What's your opinion?

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Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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Re: [Finale] TAN: use of "subito"

[Noel Stoutenburg]

Ryan Beard wrote:

Working on a piece for large ensemble. The composer has a passage for woodwinds at forte. 
Immediately after the WW finish, the brass comes in at mezzo piano. The composer has 
marked "mp subito" in the brass parts, but I think the inclusion of subito is 
unnecessary since the brass haven't been playing before this.What's your opinion?
I'd concur that the subito seems superfluous. However, my real opinion 
is that the proper course of action here is to tell the composer that 
your understanding of the use of "subito" was not consistent with his 
use at the point in question, and ask him to teach you (and that is the 
verb I'd actually use here) why he considered the word necessary. The 
possibilities are endless: he may actually have intended the marking to 
be someplace else; he may have meant some other modifier and put this 
one by mistake; or .


ns
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RE: [Finale] TAN: use of "subito"

[Lee Actor]

> Working on a piece for large ensemble. The composer has a passage
> for woodwinds at forte. Immediately after the WW finish, the
> brass comes in at mezzo piano. The composer has marked "mp
> subito" in the brass parts, but I think the inclusion of subito
> is unnecessary since the brass haven't been playing before
> this.What's your opinion?
> ___

I think the principle of "the clearer the better" is appropriate here.  The
brass aren't playing, but they're sitting there listening to the WW playing
forte, and it certainly can't hurt to emphasize that their mp does represent
a sudden change.

Lee Actor
Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic
Assistant Conductor, Nova Vista Symphony
http://www.leeactor.com

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[Finale] TAN: use of "subito"

[Ryan Beard]

Working on a piece for large ensemble. The composer has a passage for woodwinds 
at forte. Immediately after the WW finish, the brass comes in at mezzo piano. 
The composer has marked "mp subito" in the brass parts, but I think the 
inclusion of subito is unnecessary since the brass haven't been playing before 
this.What's your opinion?
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