Re: [Finale] OT: Dies Irae
Well heck, just ask Garth Brooks, or look at any Hollywood movie about any musician--music is only as important as the amount of money it generates! We should all know that, shouldn't we? ajr not an academic, and always finding it more difficult to reach an audience than to please one > Dear John, > > I'm not going to bite on this one! Especially as I am also an academic. > > Other to say that you will note I put " " around "important", for > reasons that may in fact relate in some way to what you have expounded. > > Matthew > > John Howell wrote: >> At 3:09 PM +1100 10/27/09, Matthew Hindson wrote: >>> Any listers know of a list of 20C works that use the Dies Irae in some >>> form >>> or another? >>> >>> (Particularly "important" works?) >> >> Oh, my goodness, Matthew! You've certainly left yourself wide open on >> this one!!! "Important," as in "self-important," as in "pretentious," >> as in self-declared "art music"? >> >> A great deal of the most "important" music of the 20th century (defining >> "important," just for fun, as "music that has been heard and enjoyed by >> the largest number of people and has influenced the lives of the largest >> number of people") has been written for movie scores, and more recently >> for TV drama scores, specials, or series. It is, in other words, >> functional music written for immediate use, written to be appealing to >> large numbers of people, and written with understanding of the huge >> emotional dimension that music can bring to any drama. >> >> I think that if you were to take an open and honest look at 20th century >> music, you would find that those composers whose music is written to >> satisfy their own egos, and who SAY that they don't care whether people >> like it or not, say that simply because their music is NOT music that >> people like--academic music written by academics for other academics. >> And also music that is influential, but only influential within that >> tightly-bound sub-culture of academics and the students who >> unfortunately have to write to please their professors. >> >> OK, I might be exaggerating just a teeny bit, but I DO think it's >> significant that while academic composers blithely declared the end of >> functional harmony, jazz, pop, and musical theater composers and >> songwriters ignored them as irrelevant and continue to write tonal music >> using functional harmony. Could there be a lesson there? >> >> John >> >> P.S. As to the Dies irae chant melody, it's been used over and over by >> composers in ALL styles who managed to stay awake in their music history >> classes and who know the strong association it has, for those in >> liturgical churches, with the Mass for the Dead. After all, it's there >> to be used freely by any composer with a decent undergraduate knowledge >> of music history. >> >> > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: pieces or sig. excerpts based on one or two chords
Lots of sections of pieces by Orff will fit this bill. I know the A-major fugue for piano by Shostakovich makes a fugue subject out of the A-major triad--I don't recall where it goes from there. ajr > > Doesn't the Brahms Requiem finish one movement with a huge fugue section > that is essentially a D chord? > > -Steve S > NYC > > > > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 11:58:24 +1100 > From: "Matthew Hindson (gmail)" > Subject: [Finale] TAN: pieces or sig. excerpts based on one or two > chords > To: > Message-ID: <4acbe7b0.8080...@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed > > Can anyone recommend some works or significant parts of works that are > based on one or two chords only? > > So far I have: > > Monteverdi: Prelude to L'Orfeo (D major) > Wagner: Prelude to Das Rheingold (Eb major) > Ross Edwards: Maninya V (two chords) > Stockhausen: Stimmung (1 chord) > > I'm sure there are many others I'm missing: any suggestions? > > Matthew > > > > > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] The Finale nail in the coffin
Interesting--I bought my Finale 2003 at half-price (=$300) in 2004 from a retailer in Fort Worth--still happy with it, and have not upgraded since. ajr > First off, Finale may not be authorizing those sales and > they may be pirated copies. > > Secondly, even if they are not pirated copies, they may be > copies purchased from a music retailer who has gone > bankrupt. In such cases all assets are sold off at auction > and somebody may have paid ten-cents on the dollar to buy > that stock, which is why they can offer them for sale so > cheaply and still make a profit. > > These days I'm the last person to leap to MakeMusic's > defense, but in this case until you know for certain that > the company OEM Software Resellers purchased those copies > directly from MakeMusic and didn't buy them through a > liquidation sale, it's a bit premature to get irate over the > low price. > > Secondly, it's important that we all remember that MakeMusic > has never forced anybody to upgrade. At least as far as I > know, they've never put a gun to anybody's head and said > "Buy this upgrade for $100 or I'll blow your head off." > They have forced people who deal with others (who have > bought the upgrade) to buy the upgrade in order to be > version compatible to share files, but that is a very small > percentage of the Finale-user-base. If you have fallen for > the "upgrade this year to get even better, more unbelievably > gorgeous output with even less effort" trap (as I have for > practically every upgrade) it's not the company's fault -- > it's your fault for buying their "you really need this > upgrade" crap. > > Yes, you have spent $2400 approximately to get to where you > are as a Finale user -- had you not spent that money, you'd > be theoretically much richer but you wouldn't have had the > advantage of all these years of Finale use. A new user will > always arrive at the same level of program features spending > far less than a person who has used the program for many > years and upgraded each year. It's a fact of software life, > not specifically related to Finale but to all software programs. > > Even if a new user paid the full $699 dollars they'd still > be spending far less than you've spent over the years. > > You may be right in thinking that Finale2010 can do all > you'd ever want a notation program to do, and in that case > there is no need to buy Finale2011. I skipped Finale2009 > but fell for the Finale2010 upgrade and am sorry I did so. > It offers me nothing by way of improvement for my notational > needs over Finale2008. But I fell for it and have nobody > but myself to blame for it. > > So skip the next few upgrades and don't buy another upgrade > until you find one that really offers significant > improvement over the version you currently have. I know > that's what I'll be doing. > > David H. Bailey > > > > Michael Greensill wrote: >> I just got an e-mail from some company called OEM software resellers, >> who are offering the full Finale 2010 for $119. A savings of $480 off >> the retail price. >> >> Is anyone else as pissed off as me that having owned Finale since 3.0 in >> 1992 and being forced to pay approximately $100 every year to >> upgrade...Finale must have cost me around $2400. >> >> They should at least give long time owners a free upgrade now and then >> just for loyalty. >> >> I'm pretty happy with 2010, so I think I'm done with upgrading. What >> else can they offer me? Unless they come up with some method of actually >> doing my work for me! >> >> Mike G. >> >> www.mikegreensill.com >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> > > > -- > David H. Bailey > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
I suspect the A# major triad(s) in my brass quartet gave the players involved a chance to cash in some practive routines that they don't get to redeem very often! ajr > At 4:29 PM -0400 9/30/09, dhbailey wrote: >>And I can't think of very many musical situations where you would >>want some of the musicians to be in one key and others to be in a >>different key, even if enharmonically equivalent. > > Au contraire! Writing for a university show ensemble with a 12-piece > showband, we always put the music in the right keys for the voices, > which often put the alto and bari in multiple sharps. I always > crossed over to give them fewer flats rather than more sharps, and > never had a problem with it. > >>I agree with Aaron that even if a person wants two different key >>signatures, it should definitely be the users' decision, not the >>program's. > > Absolutely! But most of that writing was in the days of hand > copying, and sometimes my mind refused to cooperate! > >>P.S. by the time you're writing music with 7 flats -- it's for >>advanced musicians who should be equally comfortable playing in >>flats or sharps. > > I have to say that my alto and bari players learned to take multiple > sharps in stride and sightread them just fine, and these were college > students who likely were NOT music majors. They just got used to it. > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition > of jazz musicians. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Interesting behavior
Still, that should be the users' decisions and not Finale's. ajr > From what I have seen, string instruments are more comfortable playing in > sharps. > > Trombones are more comfortable playing in flats. > > > At 9/30/2009 01:40 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: > > >I'm working on a big band piece that has a section in 7 flats (C-Flat) > >in the middle. Oddly enough, the guitar and bass parts are in 5 sharps > (B). > > > >FinWin2k4 > > > >Does anyone have any idea why Finale might do that? And if so, why the > >guitar and bass, but not the piano? And not the trombones? > > > >Very interesting. > > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Vivaldi Concerto
A painful theory-class lesson that I once learned is that the signature does not always reliably tell you what key the music's in according to their values that we learned. ajr > On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 5:45 PM, David McDonald > wrote: >> For all you early music history buffs: >> I'm editing/adapting a Vivaldi concerto for my string ensemble "Concerto >> in >> G minor for 2 Cellos and Strings" RV 531 >> >> Why is it "G minor" but the key signature is 1 flat? >> > > They were still sorting the church modes and the new ideas about keys > during the baroque. I deal with this a lot with Telemann, Graupner, > and Stoelzel's music. Sometimes it can be REALLY confusing. Although > my editor mentioned he just finished a late baroque piece in the key > of D flat major! > > Thanks > Kim > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] harp pedal diagram
I would suppose different harpists are different. I had one tell me emphatically that it was cheating for a harpist to use someone else's diagrams. Since she never played my concerto we never did test it in practice. ajr > I disagree. IMO it is absolutely the composer's responsibility to > indicate the pedalling in any harp part, whether by diagram or by the > older method of writing in the pitch names. > > As for harpist's preferring to do it themselves, I can only cite the > example of Lejaren Hiller, whose music I publish and who never bothered > with pedalling diagrams. On one extracted harp part, the harpist > pencilled in the note "Jerry, harps have pedals!" I add pedalling > diagrams to the harp parts in all my editions of his work. > > Andrew Stiller > Kallisti Music Press > http://www.kallistimusic.com/ > > On Sep 18, 2009, at 1:41 AM, wrote: > >> On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 1:56 PM, John Howell >> wrote: >> >>> There are at least 2 active harpists (and teachers) on the SibList, >>> and their consensus is that harpists would much prefer to enter their own diagrams, in the forms they prefer, and put them where they want them. Unless you are an experienced harpist yourself, the better part of valor might be to avoid putting in your own. John >>> >> I agree. >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> >> > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] TAN: use of "subito"
It does, however, reflect my own experience, with musicians who have to add alleged expressivity that I don't intend. Sort of like the "everything has to end with a big ritard" school of thought. ajr >> There are some that come from the school that any "subito" change is bad >> taste, and that new levels need to be gradually moved into. Subito says >> "no diminuendo/crescendo/accellerando/ritard." Sometimes it's even >> observed as such. > > That's a strange concept. I would offer as counter-evidence several > hundred > years of Western music, going back at least as far as Gabrieli. > > Lee Actor > Composer-in-Residence and Assistant Conductor, Palo Alto Philharmonic > Assistant Conductor, Nova Vista Symphony > http://www.leeactor.com > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TAN: use of "subito"
There are some that come from the school that any "subito" change is bad taste, and that new levels need to be gradually moved into. Subito says "no diminuendo/crescendo/accellerando/ritard." Sometimes it's even observed as such. You can also check out Rimsky-Korsakov's orchestration book for some tips on balancing wind instruments. ajr > Lee Actor wrote: >>> Working on a piece for large ensemble. The composer has a passage >>> for woodwinds at forte. Immediately after the WW finish, the >>> brass comes in at mezzo piano. The composer has marked "mp >>> subito" in the brass parts, but I think the inclusion of subito >>> is unnecessary since the brass haven't been playing before >>> this.What's your opinion? >>> ___ >> >> I think the principle of "the clearer the better" is appropriate here. >> The >> brass aren't playing, but they're sitting there listening to the WW >> playing >> forte, and it certainly can't hurt to emphasize that their mp does >> represent >> a sudden change. >> > > Anybody sitting listening to woodwinds playing forte and > seeing an MP in their parts who doesn't know it's a sudden > change isn't a very good musician, and if I were in that > group as a performer I wouldn't think much of a composer who > thought so little of my musicianship that he felt he had to > tell me that mezzo-piano is a sudden change from forte. > > I agree that "the clearer the better" in most situations, > but I also adhere to the principle "over explanation doesn't > make things clearer." > > I can envision the rehearsal where the brass stops the music > and asks the conductor "What does subito mp mean when we > haven't been playing?" > > Too little clarification in the notation is a bad thing, but > so is too much clarification. > > -- > David H. Bailey > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] notating a composer's dates
Martin, Your solution looks clear to me, although you could also simply use a ? without the b. for the birthdate. This would make in language-independent. ajr > Yes, John ,this IS a simple question! The year of this particular > composer's birth is unknown. Period. The most reliable information > available is that this particular composer was born during the first > half of the 18th Century. Yes, contrary to what you seem to imply, I > have indeed done my homework in this matter. Thanks for the lecture, > but you have not answered my question. > > Martin > > > > > On Sep 14, 2009, at 12:09 PM, John Howell wrote: > >> At 11:04 AM -0400 9/14/09, Martin Banner wrote: >>> Normally, when a composer's birth and death year are known, I would >>> list their dates in the following for in an edition: >>> >>> 1712 - 1781 >>> >>> However, the birth date (including year), other than it being first >>> half of the 18th Century, is unknown. How would you list the dates >>> in an edition? >>> >>> b.? - 1781? >> >> That's one way, yes, although I don't understand why you added the >> question mark to the death date. Actually the further back in >> history we go, the less likely we are to have a birth date, because >> when a baby is born nobody knows that she or he will become a Very >> Important Person! In scholarly writing c. as an abbreviation for >> circa is often used, if you have at least a general idea. >> Historians use both family Bibles and baptismal records, when they >> exist. For many years DuFay's dates were (c.1400-1477), for >> example, but now it's been pinned down to (1398-1477). (I would, >> however, use a plain hyphen rather than putting a space on either >> side; that's just the way I was trained.) In other cases, when we >> know when someone was professionally active but not his exact dates, >> we use fl. for flourished: (fl.1580-1610) for example. That's often >> true for less-well-known English composers. And if all else fails, >> you can use a general time reference (late medieval period) or (late >> 18th century). >> >> All this, of course completely ignores the fact that through >> recorded history the date on which a new year begins has been >> arbitrarily fixed on different dates in different cultures, >> including Western European Christian culture. "Lady Day" (March 25) >> was often used (since it just happens to be exactly 9 months before >> the attributed birth of Jesus. Which means that someone who was >> born between January 1 and March 25--like George Washington--can >> have two different birth years attributed, old style and new style. >> Both the Chinese New Year and the Jewish New Year have their own >> arbitrary dates, of course. >> >> And then there was the Pope Gregory in the 1580s, whose astrologers >> convinced him that the heavens were out of synch with their Julian >> Calendar (which they were), and who decreed that October 5th would >> be followed by October 15th (or some such thing, which would have >> been a real drag if your payday was on October 10th). Our >> entire Calendar (or rather calendars) is an artificial construct >> that has been played with by people from time immemorial and often >> changed, NOT a sacred mathematical construct, which made the >> arguments about whether the new millenium started in 2000 or 2001 >> seem pretty silly. Even our own Calendar, under which this is the >> year AD 2009, is a throwback to the way the Romans, Egyptians, and >> Palestinians kept track of the years. It is a King List, which >> happens to have only one King. (AD stands for Ano Domine in Latin, >> or "Year of Our Lord.") And apparently they even got THAT birth >> date wrong! >> >> But the safest thing is always to go with the most recent >> scholarship as given in, for example, New Grove or MGG. (I bet you >> thought this was a simple question!) >> >> John >> >> >> -- >> John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music >> Virginia Tech Department of Music >> College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences >> Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 >> Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 >> (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) >> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html >> >> "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition >> of jazz musicians. >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > > > > > > > > Martin Banner > mban...@hvc.rr.com > > http://www.alliancemusic.com/peopledetails.cfm?iPeopleID=22 > > http://hinshawmusic.com/search_results.php?keyword=banner&search=Search > > http://collavoce.com/search.php?cmd=search&mode=normal&words=Banner > > http://sbmp.com/SeeItNowFolder/SeeItNowMen.html > > http://carlfischer.com/Fischer/search.cfm?cfT=&cfC=Banner&cfID= > > http://lorenz.com/results.aspx?srch=quick&cid=Martin+Banner > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/l
Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
Sounds delicious! and great to throw at any wind players who gripe about having to flutter-tongue! ajr > On Sep 1, 2009, at 2:21 PM, > wrote: > >> Italian for flutter-tongued is "frullato," without any specific >> reference >> to "lingua." > > I'm a couple weeks behind on this discussion. I just wanted to add > that the more familiar use of the word "frullato" is that it's what > Italians call the confection we call a milkshake or a smoothie. > > The two words are related in meaning. The Italian verb "frullare" > has a cloud of meaning that doesn't exactly correspond with that of > "whip", "beat" or "flutter", but captures a bit of each of them. > Frullare is what your tongue does when you play fluttertongue, and > it's what the blender does to the ice cream, banana, frozen > strawberries, or whatever other ingredients you've tossed in to the mix. > > mdl > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Plural of "Dessus"
Ordinarily French nouns in -s (e.g., hautbois) stay the same in the plural. > Hi everyone: > > What would be the correct plural form of "Dessus" as in > Ouverture in F major for 2 Horns, 2 Dessus and Basson continuo" > > Dessuses? Dessi? Ha > > Thanks > Kim > > -- > Kim Patrick Clow > "Just be yourself! Everyone else is taken!" > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Plural of "Dessus"
Ordinarily French nouns in -s (e.g., hautbois) stay the same in the plural. > Hi everyone: > > What would be the correct plural form of "Dessus" as in > Ouverture in F major for 2 Horns, 2 Dessus and Basson continuo" > > Dessuses? Dessi? Ha > > Thanks > Kim > > -- > Kim Patrick Clow > "Just be yourself! Everyone else is taken!" > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Hiding rests
Does your version allow for typing H in speedy-entry? ajr > I have an old version of Finale (3.7), but I am pretty sure there was a > way > to hide rests, but I have forgotten it. > > Any help appreciated. > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sheet music rental license example
Didn't you know that that's why God gave us computers? So that composers could have jobs! > How do these people think composers are supposed to survive? Nuts! > > Chuck > > > On Sep 4, 2009, at 2:01 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: > >> Hi Klaus, >> >> They aren't willing to pay a rental fee at all! Obviously, if it >> weren't for the fact that a player in my band really wants to >> perform this piece in the competition, I would not be sending them >> the music. >> >> I may take the trouble to watermark the score and parts, though, as >> you suggest. >> >> Cheers, >> >> - Darcy >> - >> djar...@earthlink.net >> Brooklyn, NY >> >> >> >> On 4 Sep 2009, at 4:24 PM, Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre wrote: >> >>> Solve the problem by setting the licensing fee at $70. >>> >>> Mark the score & each part with an expiration date for the rental >>> license. >>> >>> Will cost you some work, but should teach the band a lesson. If >>> they like the music, they will have to buy it from you once more. >>> >>> Klaus >>> >>> --- On Fri, 9/4/09, Darcy James Argue wrote: >>> From: Darcy James Argue Subject: [Finale] Sheet music rental license example To: finale@shsu.edu Date: Friday, September 4, 2009, 9:51 PM Hi all, Is there a boilerplate sheet music rental license available online anywhere I could take a look at? I never thought I'd be in a situation where I would want to license my music for a specific performance only, but there's a trumpet player in my band who wants to perform one of my bigband works at the Carmine Caruso jazz trumpet competition. However, the competition's house band (one of the US Armed Services bands) is too damn cheap to actually purchase the piece (which, incidentally, is only $70). The trumpet player in my band still wants to perform the piece, and of course I'm willing to oblige him. The competition has requested that I send PDFs of the piece to the military band -- I'm okay with that too. But what I DON'T want is for the military band to keep the piece in their library after they've performed it at the Caruso competition. So I need to send them some kind of license that precludes additional performances. Cheers, - Darcy - djar...@earthlink.net Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Finale mailing list >>> Finale@shsu.edu >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > Chuck Israels > 230 North Garden Terrace > Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 > phone (360) 671-3402 > fax (360) 676-6055 > www.chuckisraels.com > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
Perhaps I should sub-title this one as "Historically Informed Penderecki," as I listen to his "Fluorescences" that includes such out-of-date items as a telephone bell (NOT a chirper) and a typewriter. (Not to mentions LeRoy Anderson's famous solo piece for the latter) ajr ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
Except in Poland, where they still use "fortepiano" to refer to any such
instrument. (and it wouldn't surprise me if they aren't the only ones who
do so)
ajr
> "Pianoforte" and, to a lesser extent "Fortepiano" were both used as
> early names for the invention, soon shortened to "piano" for general
> use. "Fortepiano" has come into use in recent decades to distinguish an
> early instrument or reproduction. The name "piano" persisted from soon
> after invention to present day, as I said, and can still describe all of
> the above.
>
> RBH
>
>
> John Howell wrote:
>> At 8:05 PM -0400 9/1/09, Ray Horton wrote:
>>>
>>> I am sure there are some real differences in piano construction
>>> between the late 1700s and now, yet even Mr. Fenton allows the name
>>> to persist.
>>
>> Actually, no. We differentiate carefully between fortepiano
>> (basically before the metal frame was introduced) and the pianoforte
>> or just plain "piano," dating from the introduction of the cast iron
>> frame. The former was quite limited in the amount of string tension
>> the wooden case could support, and latter developed heavier and
>> heavier stringing. Modern electronic "pianos" are, of course, no such
>> thing. And the fortepiano started out experimentally as a hammered
>> harpsichord, from Signor Christofori on.
>>
>> In the harpsichord revival, there were actually at least 3 stages:
>> Pleyel's plucked piano ("this is what the harpsichord SHOULD have
>> been, obviously!") much too heavy to sound above a pianissimo; the
>> factory "revival" instruments (mostly German, although at least one
>> Canadian maker followed this line) still much too heavy to sound and
>> with a miriad of modern "improvements" ("we're ever so much smarter
>> than the old guys were" which simply introduced new and more wonderful
>> problems); and instruments based on observing and duplicating
>> 16th-18th century designs and manufacturing methods ("the old guys
>> knew what they were doing and it's foolish to re-invent the
>> wheel--badly!").
>>
>> That's typical of any revival. The recorder revival was knocked off
>> track by one German maker who "improved" the fingering and in the
>> process screwed up a lot of notes on the instrument. The viola da
>> gamba revival resulted in herds of heavily built instruments with no
>> resonance and tiny sound levels. A true revival has to accept that
>> the old guys really DID know what they were doing, and give us the
>> best instruments to emulate, if not literally to copy.
>>
>> It gets HUGELY more complicated than that, partly because there is no
>> one-size-fits-all version of a harpsichord that is perfect for all
>> uses as there is in modern pianos. For some strange reason instrument
>> makers in different European countries had different ideas about what
>> was ideal, what was commercially viable, and what music they were
>> intended for. Just imagine!!!
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>
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>
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Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
So what do you call the instrument that Landowska played? A Wandsichord, perhaps? And as far as Gould goes, it would be great to here a performance as insightful as his program notes. ajr with no doubt as to where he stands on the Glenn Gould controversy > On 1 Sep 2009 at 16:20, arabu...@cowtown.net wrote: > >> still thinks that Landowska's Bach is some of the best on record > > For her style and musicality, yes, but so is Glenn Gould's. > > Neither of them played the harpsichord. > > -- > David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com > David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
Could easily be mistaken for "Loudun devils." ajr > On 1 Sep 2009 at 23:24, Frank Prain wrote: > >> Seriously though, what's wrong with "louden lots"? > > It's not just that it goes against standard conventions that every > trained musician already knows (molto crescendo is something everyone > understands, no?), but it's not even standard usage in its native > language. > > It's the worst type of neo-logism, one that confuses even the native > speakers of the language. > > (and just a reminder of one of my favorite observations about Italian > musical instructions, "Musician's Italian" is not the same language > as "Italian's Italian," and grammatical and othographical rules of > its own that may bear little or no resemblance to the source > language) > > -- > David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com > David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
Italian for flutter-tongued is "frullato," without any specific reference to "lingua." ajr > Hmm .. the Italian for "Flutter tongue" must be something > picturesque, like, "Lingua Fluterri." Sounds like something with > which an Italian Grainger might have come up. > > > On Sep 1, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: > >> >> On Sep 1, 2009, at 5:12 AM, dhbailey wrote: >> >>> Those who have written in French and German terms were composers >>> of international standing and the music was compelling enough that >>> people figured out what the non-Italian terms meant and bought the >>> music despite their nationalistic use of terms. >> >> They *became* composers of international standing, but certainly >> none of them *started* that way, nor are they the only composers of >> their times and places who used the veranacular in their music. In >> short, "international prominence" has nothing to do with it. *Any* >> composer in the classical tradition writes with an international >> constituency in mind, whether they ever obtain one or not. >> >>> >>> And since most of the world seems intent on learning English, >>> perhaps more and more they'll understand your terms, should your >>> music be compelling enough to attract their attention. >> >> Again, this has nothing to do with the subject. English speaking >> composers have been quite regularly using English instructions in >> their scores for over a century now, and there's no longer any >> debate. The most common US practice, for almost all of that time, >> has been to use the standard Italian expressions most of the time >> (because they have very specific musical meanings that are not >> fully conveyed if the words are translated), but to use English for >> emotional or esthetic instructions (as: "with feeling") and for >> technical instructions (as: fluttertongue). In the first instance, >> English is preferred because of the same kind of detail of meaning >> that I mentioned above. "With feeling," for example, is *not* >> exactly synonymous with "con anima" or "ausdrucksvoll" or any other >> such term. For technical instructions, there is no reason to think >> that a musician would be more likely to understand them in Italian >> than in any other language (quick: what's the Italian for >> "fluttertongue"? What's the French? We probably all know the German >> "flatterzunge"--but that's not Italian either, is it?) >> >> Andrew Stiller >> Kallisti Music Press >> http://www.kallistimusic.com/ >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > Canto ergo sum > And, > I'd rather be composing than decomposing > > Dean M. Estabrook > http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home > > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
And how 'bout the French vs. the German bassons while we're at it? ajr who still thinks that Landowska's Bach is some of the best on record > On 1 Sep 2009 at 16:10, Ray Horton wrote: > >> Oh, David, please read the thread before you keep at this! If you had >> then you would know, by now, that the term "ophecleide" came to be >> attached to a valved brass instrument by 1850, so this "Modern >> Ophecleide " is certainly in that tradition. > > The term "harpsichord" was attached to the hideous metal-framed > instruments that Wanda Landowska asked the Pleyel firm to build for > her, but that doesn't mean there's any reason to revive a modern > "Landowska-style" harpsichord today. The application of the term was > not legitimate at the time (though it was closer to the original than > the piano in superficial respects, it was still pretty remote in > sound compared to what Bach would have used, recreating which was > Landowska's supposed stated goal), and it doesn't get more legitimate > with time. > > -- > David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com > David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide NOW Language for terms
What about "corno" for horn (as in the "ocho cornos" noted in the orchestration of Châvez's "Sinfonía de Antígona" in the notes that go along with the recording he conducted)? I know that "trompa" meant "horn" in Portuguese--have never heard it used as such in Spanish. ajr > > On Sep 1, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Ray Horton wrote: > >> >> Years ago, the Louisville Orchestra hosted a contemporary music >> festival that included bringing in a number of talented players from >> many countries all over, although an inordinate number were from >> Spanish speaking countries. We did two concerts of large chamber >> works with these players and LO players mixed. I believe >> understanding English was a prerequisite for participation, but that >> ability varied. Our Assistant Conductor at the time (the enormously >> talented Gisele Ben-Dor, now MD of Santa Barbara) was a native Spanish >> speaker herself, so she found herself giving most of her instructions >> in both languages. > > Just a reminder to all: In Spanish "trompa" means horn and > "clavicordio" means square piano. > > Andrew Stiller > Kallisti Music Press > http://www.kallistimusic.com/ > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
Thanks, Howard! I do recall now that in the score that I have for Prokofiev's "Lt. Kijè" music that the cornet is labeled "pistone." And, as it turned out, the guy who played it when we did it in our community orchestra used a D-trumpet, giving me my first exposure to the instrument. ajr > At 21:21 31.08.2009 -0500, arabu...@cowtown.net wrote: >>Has anyone here run across the feminized "Cornetta" to refer to the >>3-valve cornet? I'm about to finalize a score that includes this >>instrument, and I don't want it mistake for the cornetto of Moneteverdi's >>time. > > "Cornetta" is indeed the Italian name for the > 3-valve cornet. But if you want to make sure to > get the right instrument, use "cornet à pistons." > > Howard > > > -- > Howard Weiner > h.wei...@online.de > http://howard-weiner.de/ > > Tosca jumped to a conclusion. > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
If you ever hire me to compose for you I will use whichever language(s) in the score we agree on. In my own projects I will unapologetically follow my own procedures. ajr > FWIW, I've long been a proponent of (as an American composer) using > directions in English as much as possible. If it's been good enough > for the Italians, French, and Germans ... why not us? Let them come > to us for a change ... eh, it's just the curmudgeon bubbling to the > surface ... I turned 69 this year .. > > Dean > > On Aug 31, 2009, at 9:08 PM, wrote: > >> I usually put as many of the words in my scores into Italian as >> possible, >> somewhat drawing on my experience of making recordings in Moravia >> where >> they understood everything I wrote in Italian, and not necessarily >> what I >> wrote in English (e.g., "white keys," "rim shot"). >> >> ajr >> >>> At 9:21 PM -0500 8/31/09, arabu...@cowtown.net wrote: Has anyone here run across the feminized "Cornetta" to refer to the 3-valve cornet? I'm about to finalize a score that includes this instrument, and I don't want it mistake for the cornetto of Moneteverdi's time. ajr >>> >>> No, although that doesn't mean it doesn't exist in that form. But >>> why not just call it what it is, a cornet (one "t")? >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> -- >>> John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music >>> Virginia Tech Department of Music >>> College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences >>> Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 >>> Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 >>> (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) >>> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html >>> >>> "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's >>> definition >>> of jazz musicians. >>> ___ >>> Finale mailing list >>> Finale@shsu.edu >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >>> >> >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > Canto ergo sum > And, > I'd rather be composing than decomposing > > Dean M. Estabrook > http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home > > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
I usually put as many of the words in my scores into Italian as possible, somewhat drawing on my experience of making recordings in Moravia where they understood everything I wrote in Italian, and not necessarily what I wrote in English (e.g., "white keys," "rim shot"). ajr > At 9:21 PM -0500 8/31/09, arabu...@cowtown.net wrote: >>Has anyone here run across the feminized "Cornetta" to refer to the >>3-valve cornet? I'm about to finalize a score that includes this >>instrument, and I don't want it mistake for the cornetto of Moneteverdi's >>time. >> >>ajr > > No, although that doesn't mean it doesn't exist in that form. But > why not just call it what it is, a cornet (one "t")? > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition > of jazz musicians. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
Has anyone here run across the feminized "Cornetta" to refer to the 3-valve cornet? I'm about to finalize a score that includes this instrument, and I don't want it mistake for the cornetto of Moneteverdi's time. ajr ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Ophecleide
Would be interesting to here a Roger Norrington Roman Triptych, 78-rpm disc and all. and perhaps official buccine instead of saxhorns/flügelhorns? ajr > I think we might be misunderstanding the intent of Roger Bobo's page. He > was the long time tubist with the Los Angeles Symphony and is simply > making observations on what he sees going on in the symphonic world now. > He was/is no troglodyte himself - for example, he helped bring the F > tuba into modern symphonic use as much as anyone, during a time when the > large CC and even BBb tubas were still the norm for the entirety of the > rep. He was actually considered the young radical of the symphony tuba > world, back in his day. > > > Anyway, Bobo's page contains observations of a player to players, and > not intended to be a scholarly article in the nature of the Meucci > article I referenced. A symphony brass player will play the tailpipe off > of a Model T Ford if it helps him or her the right sound. And Bobo > doesn't think symphony players will be choosing to play the keyed > ophicleide in the near future as a general rule. > > > Quoting Bobo, concerning the ophicleide: "with a complete orchestra > playing period instruments its quite appropriate but I foresee the > frequent use with modern orchestra to be short-lived." > > > He really did not say it "shouldn't" be played. Rather, he is predicting > that it won't be, much, in modern orchestras. I would have to agree with > him. Time will tell, I suppose. > > > The "Modern Ophecleide" (which I haven't heard. I want to stress) looks > like it could be a good compromise for a player in a large, modern > instrument orchestra. > > > Now, regarding David's comparison of a pianist, Mozart, and a > fortepiano, I am guessing that a pianist might not choose the Mozart-era > fortepiano if playing with a modern orchestra, larger than those in > Mozart's day, and playing in a large concert hall. The pianist may > choose the Steinway instead. The next week, he/she could play the > fortepiano with a small period group in a small church. Such is the > marvelous musical world in which we now live. > > > Said pianist would have a significant advantage over the > tubist/ophicleide player in a similar situation. Even though there would > be major difference in touch, temperament, etc, between those two > pianos, the pianist is still using the same basic technique (fingers > 1,2,3,4,5 of the right hand go up the scale, etc.). A tubist/ophicleide > player switching instruments between thise two concerts changes > everything about the instrument - even the basic principle of "press > down a key, the note goes up-down." (Down on tube, up on ophicleide.). > And, just like the fortepiano, the original ophicleide has a > disadvantage in volume. Also, it is just a smaller instrument with a > smaller mouthpiece, so the trombonist may be more suited for it - but > this creates contractual problems. (I have run into those in my > orchestra regarding opera rep - I bought a cimbasso, one that is best > designed for a trombonist rather than A tubist to play, but now they > decide they don't want to spring the extra bucks for another trombonist > while leaving our tubist at home collecting a salary - so I can't play > it.) > > > Some players will, and have learned both tuba and keyed ophecleide, but > it is not necessarily a reasonable expectation of every player in the > tuba chair. (Decades ago, string bass and tuba were an expected double. > I'm sure a few players could do it well, but mostly this tradition led > to a great deal of bad professional playing on both instruments.) > > > And, as we have seen in other messages of this thread "ophicleide" came > to mean, later in the 19th century, a valved instrument that we would > find very little different from a small-bore F tuba, or from this new > "Modern Ophicleide." So history is really ON the side of this new > instrument. > > > The score to Resphigi's _Pines of Rome_ specifies a specific 78 RPB > record of bird calls be played. Now, in performance, no one plays this > 78 RPB record, they play a CD or use a digital file. (I am not sure if > it is a copy of the specific 78 RPB record the the composer indicated, > or a similar, more recent recording of the same birds.) Would the > composer expect us to stick to his original specification for the 78 > RPM, plus whatever playback device 1920-whatever could give us, or would > he expect us to take advantage of the improvements in this technology? > It would probably be interesting, once, to hear the latter. But I > suspect, since R. was using the latest available sound reproduction > technology he could find, he would expect the same effort from us - find > the latest and best? > > > RBH > > > > > David W. Fenton wrote: >> On 29 Aug 2009 at 23:19, Ray Horton wrote: >> >> >>> I think this instrument might be an excellent solution to a long-time >>> problem. The tuba is an imperfect substitute for an ophicleide, but a >>> real op
Re: [Finale] OT: mutes for flügelhorns? now Andrews brass
So is the advantage to writing for a contrabass trombone one of range, or strictly one of timbre? Just looking through the Ring Cycle it doesn't look like the contrabass goes down any lower than the regular bass. I understand thet IU had two contrabass bones, both of which had valves. ajr > > On Aug 26, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Ray Horton wrote: > >> Andrew suggests: >> >> "contrabass trombone (i.e. wide-bore Bb/F bass w. addl. D trigger)" >> >> >> Just what do you mean, Andrew? Do you mean a contrabass trombone in >> BBb, same pitch as a BBb tuba, but with two valves? Not made - no >> valves, or one valve only. Either way, the contrabass slide trombone >> is an unweildy instrument, not nearly as versatile as what I THINK you >> want, which is: >> >> >> a conventional bass trombone in Bb with two valves. This is never >> called a contrabass trombone. In that case > > I just knew this was going to happen, but it is just impossible to say > what trombone you want without going into a whole lengthy description. > So here it is: > > In my book, I discuss the cbtrb in BBb (double slides). I fully > recognize that it is a very unwieldy instrument, wh. is why it is so > rare. About 10 years ago, however, I gradually came to the realization > that most players confronted with the existing cbtrb. literature > (Varèse, Wagner, Ligeti, etc.) were using a different instrument: a > very wide-bore bass trombone with either *three* triggers (F E D) or > the usual two, but tuned lower (F Eb or F D). The extra-wide bore gives > secure access to even the lowest pedal tones, which is to say EE > without trigger, CC w. the F trigger, BBB with the E trigger, BBBb > (lowest note of the cbn) w. an Eb trigger and AAA (bottom note of the > piano) w. the D trigger. Such an instrument is required not only for > overt cbtrb parts, but for such extremely low-pitched trombone parts as > the 4th trb in Berg's _Three Pieces for Orchestra_. > > For all other winds, terms such as tenor, bass, or contrabass denote > instruments of distinctly different length and range, but the different > "sizes" of trombone as usually played today are just minor variants of > a single instrument in nontransposing Bb/F, with varying bore width, > and/or additional trigger(s). It is perfectly sensible, therefore, to > refer to them all as simply "trombones" and let the player choose an > instrument appropriate to the part. > > However, in listing my ideal brass section, if I had just said "2 > trombones" it would not have fully conveyed my wish for two sliding > brass able to cover between them every note from AAA to f''. Thus, I > wrote as I did, and now I have explained it in more detail than most of > you want to hear, and I hope everybody's happy. > > And if you haven't had enough, check out www.contrabass.com/ and > especially http://www.contrabass.com/pages/cbtbn.html . > > Andrew Stiller > Kallisti Music Press > http://www.kallistimusic.com/ > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: mutes for flügelhorns?
You could still tell it was a D trumpet and not something more mellow. I don't know if it was the player's choice or the conductors's. ajr > Our first trumpet player plays a posthorn on occasion, and gets a very > dark sound on it - it has a very large bore in comparison to it's length > - as opposed to a D trumpet. > > > The player that chose a D trumpet probably did so for intonation or > comfort, but probably not for timbre. Actually, being backstage negates > some of the timbre of the instrument, so the smaller. brighter > instrument may have sounded dark to the audience. > > > RBH > > > John Howell wrote: >> At 8:36 PM -0500 8/26/09, arabu...@cowtown.net wrote: >>> And so it is marked in the score I have as well. St. Louis Symphony >>> used a >>> D-Trumpet for their local premiere--never have understood why. >> >> I've heard posthorn solos. It may have been the Goldman Band playing >> summer concerts in Central Park back in the late '40s. A D trumpet >> probably sounds more like that (they are rather short tubes) than >> anything else would. I wonder why Mahler named it that, and then >> called for flugel? >> >> John >> >> > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: mutes for flügelhorns?
And when I did my first round of recordings in Moravia I found out how prominent the euphonium (=tenor flügelhorn) was in the folklorical combos. ajr > Andrew Stiller wrote: >> >> On Aug 26, 2009, at 11:01 AM, John Howell wrote: >> >>> my first reaction was, "why?" Most of us would write for flugel as a >>> double, specifically for its tone quality. >>> >>> But thinking about it, I could picture using flugel as the lead over >>> trombones, and wanting to mute the whole section. >>> >>> Curious, though; what use did you picture? >>> >> >> John can answer for himself, but for me an ideal orchestral brass >> section (for new works, obviously!) would consist of 2 Bb piccolo >> trumpets (4 valves), 2 flghn (4 valves), 2 horns in F, 2 euphoniums (4 >> valves, Bb non-transposing), tenor-bass trombone, contrabass trombone >> (i.e. wide-bore Bb/F bass w. addl. D trigger), and cbs. tuba. This >> combination would have a greater pitch range, wider timbral variety and >> greater flexibility than the current standard, and requires no more >> instruments than usual. >> >> But I fully realize that this is a utopian fantasy on my part. >> >> Andrew Stiller >> Kallisti Music Press >> http://www.kallistimusic.com/ >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> > > > Utopian fantasy on your part or not, it would make one heck > of a terrific sounding brass section! > > And there's a world of European Wind Band music where there > are distinct parts for Cornets, Trumpets and Flugelhorns, > each making use of the specific tone color for each of the > three instruments. > > -- > David H. Bailey > dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT: mutes for flügelhorns? now Andrews brass
Ok! Note that you can order the CD straight from me if you'd like. ajr Harvey Philips era > Aaron, > Shall do...I remember you from IU. > For that metter, I remember BILL BELL from IU. > Jim W. > > > From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of > arabu...@cowtown.net [arabu...@cowtown.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:35 PM > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: RE: [Finale] OT: mutes forflügelhorns? now Andrews brass > > FWIW, I remember that the Dallas Symphony was trying to beg and borrow a > cimbasso for something by Verdi. I think that the Dallas Opera had > one--don't know how it ended. > > And, if you want to hear some effective euphonium writing, check out my > Canzona e Scherzo Capriccioso (Vienna Modern Masters CD VMM-2012), or my > brief Cavatina, published by Cimarron Music Press. > > ajr > >> Couple of comments... >> >> 1. Cimbasso, anyone? Does the LO own one, Ray, or does anyone in your >> section? Perhaps that is what Andrew means? Cimbassi come in all the >> tuba >> keys (F, Eb, CC, BBb) >> >> 2. A great use for euphonium is as a replacement for the HORN in a brass >> quintet. Our quintet has been doing this for years (yours truly, euph >> player) and it has really opened some possibilities, especially in >> pop/jazz realms. If I need a much smaller sound in the quintet, I use a >> real british-style baritone horn (A genuine British Yamaha 621). >> >> 3. In countless years spent in some of the diviest dives either side of >> I-65, I have never encountered a flugel player who put a mute in the >> thing. Perhaps some of them should have, but they didn't. See below... >> >> 3.5 Is it just me or do the conoidal non-horn brass (euph, tuba, flugel) >> not lend themselves to mutes as well as the cylinders do? (I have never >> liked listening to muted euphonium or tuba, and I really dislike having >> to >> use one). FWIW, conoidal brass also don't respond to those 800-lb. >> gorilla >> heavywall mouthpieces as well as the cylinders do. >> >> 4. I have a small-bore Holton 58 bass trumpet, and I know how to use it. >> Be warned. If it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it must be >> my bass trumpet. >> >> 5. Euphonium has a lot of untapped potential in jazz ensembles large & >> small and orchestras. Remember that, composers & arrangers! It adds a >> nice bit of conical mellowness to the piercing cylindricity of trumpets >> & >> trombones. A Yamaha 321 works well in pop/jazz rather than one of the >> bigger-bore compensating horns. A lot of trombonists double on a 321. >> What >> do you use in the LO, Ray? >> >> Jim W. >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >> > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: mutes for flügelhorns?
And so it is marked in the score I have as well. St. Louis Symphony used a D-Trumpet for their local premiere--never have understood why. ajr > The Mahler "posthorn" solo is actually labeled 'flugelhorn' in the part. > > > RBH > > arabu...@cowtown.net wrote: >> ...Also, the flügelhorn >> often stands in for the posthorn in the 3rd movement of the Mahler 3rd, >> and it sounds much better in this capacity than the d-trumpet that is >> sometimes used. >> >> ajr >> >> >> > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT: mutes for flügelhorns? now Andrews brass
FWIW, I remember that the Dallas Symphony was trying to beg and borrow a cimbasso for something by Verdi. I think that the Dallas Opera had one--don't know how it ended. And, if you want to hear some effective euphonium writing, check out my Canzona e Scherzo Capriccioso (Vienna Modern Masters CD VMM-2012), or my brief Cavatina, published by Cimarron Music Press. ajr > Couple of comments... > > 1. Cimbasso, anyone? Does the LO own one, Ray, or does anyone in your > section? Perhaps that is what Andrew means? Cimbassi come in all the tuba > keys (F, Eb, CC, BBb) > > 2. A great use for euphonium is as a replacement for the HORN in a brass > quintet. Our quintet has been doing this for years (yours truly, euph > player) and it has really opened some possibilities, especially in > pop/jazz realms. If I need a much smaller sound in the quintet, I use a > real british-style baritone horn (A genuine British Yamaha 621). > > 3. In countless years spent in some of the diviest dives either side of > I-65, I have never encountered a flugel player who put a mute in the > thing. Perhaps some of them should have, but they didn't. See below... > > 3.5 Is it just me or do the conoidal non-horn brass (euph, tuba, flugel) > not lend themselves to mutes as well as the cylinders do? (I have never > liked listening to muted euphonium or tuba, and I really dislike having to > use one). FWIW, conoidal brass also don't respond to those 800-lb. gorilla > heavywall mouthpieces as well as the cylinders do. > > 4. I have a small-bore Holton 58 bass trumpet, and I know how to use it. > Be warned. If it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it must be > my bass trumpet. > > 5. Euphonium has a lot of untapped potential in jazz ensembles large & > small and orchestras. Remember that, composers & arrangers! It adds a > nice bit of conical mellowness to the piercing cylindricity of trumpets & > trombones. A Yamaha 321 works well in pop/jazz rather than one of the > bigger-bore compensating horns. A lot of trombonists double on a 321. What > do you use in the LO, Ray? > > Jim W. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: mutes for flügelhorns?
The 9th symphony by Vaughan Williams comes to mind. Also, the flügelhorn often stands in for the posthorn in the 3rd movement of the Mahler 3rd, and it sounds much better in this capacity than the d-trumpet that is sometimes used. ajr > > On Aug 26, 2009, at 11:01 AM, John Howell wrote: > >> Most of us would write for flugel as a double, specifically for its >> tone quality. > > > Was wondering if you might be able to give an example of this color > quality in some well known musical work? Is there such a famous piece > where > flugel horn is used which would not sound satisfying with trombone or > horn instead? > > > timothy price > timothy.pr...@valley.net > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: mutes for flügelhorns?
Thanks to all of you for your replies! I submitted my inquiry to this list since there are so many musicians here with practical experience that a google search could never tap. As to why I want to mute the flügelhorn, suffice it to say that that's what I need to do at this juncture in the piece I'm working on (remember that this is the same guy who rattled the IU composition department so long ago by presenting a chamber symphony with basset horns, saxophones, haprsichord, and mandolin). ajr ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT: mutes for flügelhorns?
Does any of you know if flügelhorns have some of the unusual (i.e., cup, harmon) trumpet mutes fitted for them? Aaron J. Rabushka ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. Proper spelling for Chalumeau(x)
Yes, the final X makes a plural in this case. (One of my former French teachers called us to task by writing Dieu (God) with a final -x, saying that she didn't realize we had so many pagans in class.) ajr > Good Day: > > What is the correct plural form for "chalumeau"? > > I typically see "chalumeaux." > > I suppose the "x" is a form of "s" akin to "flute" versus "flutes" in > English. > > Thank you, > Kim > > -- > Kim Patrick Clow > "Just be yourself! Everyone else is taken!" > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: So, C, E-flat and G walk into a bar...
Kinda like the Beethoven 9th in the park, where the conductor lashed the score to the podium so it wouldn't blow away and the bassists all went out and got drunk after the 3rd movement. When they came back for the finale it was the bottom of the 9th, the score was tied, and the basses were loaded. ajr > I've always been a huge fan of "x walks into a bar" jokes, but I > think this string of musical ones is brilliant. > > = > So, C, E-flat and G walk into a bar. The bartender says, "Sorry, but > we don't serve minors. > > So E-flat leaves, and C and G have an open fifth between them. > > After a few drinks, the fifth is diminished and G is out flat. > > F comes in and tries to augment the situation, but is not sharp > enough. > > D comes in and heads for the bathroom, saying, "Excuse me. I'll just > be a second." > > Then A comes in, but the bartender is not convinced that this > relative of C is not A Minor. > > Then the bartender notices B-flat hiding at the end of the bar and > says, "Get out! You're the seventh minor I've found in this bar > tonight." > > E-Flat comes back the next night in a three-piece suit with nicely > shined shoes. The bartender says, "You're looking sharp tonight. Come > on in, this could be a major development." > > Sure enough, E-flat soon takes off his suit and everything else, and > is au naturel. > > Eventually, C sobers up and realizes in horror that he's under a > rest. > > C is brought to trial, found guilty of contributing to the diminution > of a minor, and is sentenced to 10 years of D.S. without Coda at an > upscale correctional facility. > > -- > David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com > David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: con sord + harmonics
Not to mention those string players who wouldn't play pizzicato for Monteverdi since they considered it a bastardization of the instrument! ajr > At 3:54 PM +0100 7/27/09, Colin Broom wrote: >>I figure there's a lot of epxerienced strong players and >>orchestrators out there, and I've read some very good advice here >>before, so here goes: >> >>Can anyone tell me (as much as it is possible to describe something >>like this) on an orchestral string instrument what effect applying >>the mute has on harmonics, artificial or natural? > > Absolutely none! The tone will, of course, be slightly softer and > have fewer overtones, which is what a mute does, but playing the > harmonics themselves will not change an iota. > > The confusion here may be semantics, since "harmonic" and "overtone" > are synonymous in some situations, but in this situation they are > not. "Harmonic" refers to a special effect usually associated with > stringed instruments, and while it uses the nodal points representing > the natural harmonic series it refers to a technique and the sound > produced by that technique. "Overtones" refers to the specific > makeup of any tone more complex than a simple sine wave, and in this > context refers to the resultant tonal quality as modified by using a > mute, playing string harmonics, or playing sul ponticello. Two > different animals hiding behind non-interchangeable meanings (in this > particular context). > >>Does it even have much of an effect? Or does it even cause problems >>in the playing of them? > > In no way at all. > >> >>Similarly, what effect does the mute have on sul pont.? > > None, unless the mute used is so bulky that it prevents the bow from > getting close enough to the bridge. You'll again lose some of the > higher overtones, so the effect will in fact be less pronounced. > >> >>If anyone can even point me in the direction of pieces that make use >>of either or these (with mute) I'd be grateful. > > They are three entirely different special effects, and as it happens > they do not affect one another in any very meaningful way. Mix and > match to your taste. Just don't ask for mutes when what you really > want is soft playing. Con sordino is a tone quality, not just a > volume level. (Of course string players instinctively hate sul > ponticello, since the effect it one of fingernails on a slate > blackboard, but we humor composers who think it's a neat effect!) > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition > of jazz musicians. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Dance of the Snake Charmer?
Are you all talking about "Streets of Cairo"? ajr > I know it as ~"All the girls in Spain" but the rest of the words are > obscene > so maybe that doesn't help much. > > Cheers, > > Lawrence-- > Lawrenceyates.co.uk > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] staff attribute question
There may very well be. If so it is unintential. How do I check for this? ajr > Aaron, > > I hope this is not a stupid suggestion. Is there another staff > overlaying the first one? I'm not sure I follow all the details of > the problem, but that's where I'd look first. > > Chuck > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 7, 2009, at 8:13 PM, Aaron Rabushka wrote: > >> Something showed up tonight that I have never seen before. One of >> the staves in my score is now showing up somewhat darker than the >> others. When I use control-A to select all of the music this staff >> is not included in the highlighting. When I copy other stuff into it >> it leaves the original there without putting anything into an >> different layer. It frequently displays whole rests when there is >> other stuff in the measure. Sometimes I cannot erase what's there. >> Have eny of you ever come across this before? I am using Finale 2003 >> on a PC. >> >> Aaron J. Rabushka >> arabu...@cowtown.net >> http://users.waymark.net/arabushk >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
Actually, my former teacher from St. Louis Symphony said he stuck with the tenor for Beethoven 5 since the part laid better on it than on the alto. He did use his alto for the "Oh Mensch, Gib Acht" movement in Mahler 3. Since no one would have noticed if he hadn't said anything the blends worked very effectively in both cases. ajr > David W. Fenton wrote: >> ... >> Yes, but it depends on what you're looking at -- what Beethoven >> intended, and what people actually managed to do at the time. Since >> we today (in most decent-sized orchestras) have the luxury of >> choosing the instruments to be used, I don't see much reason to worry >> about how people in the past got by. > > Good point, certainly. But we should know when the assumptions of the > past, (that LVB wrote for ATB trombones and that's what they were played > on, period) are wrong. I think any pro that doesn't play the Fifth on > alto is asking for trouble, and I've heard some get the request answered. > > > One point that both Shifrin and Weiner make (I have the benifit of > having heard Shifrin give an energietic and informative lecture before > this article was published, so, at this point, I don't recall which > points came from which) is that several things could, and did happen: > (1) a composer writes for alto trombone, expecting or hoping for an Eb > alto; (2) a composer writes for a part labeled "alto trombone", fully > expecting it to be played on a Bb instrument which fills the role of > alto trombone; (3) a composer writes a part for trombone one, and the > publisher labeled the part alto out of tradition/function (this is > certainly the case with Bruckner, whose first trombone parts could not > be played on an alto trombone). > > > Shifrin seems to have mostly examined parts and scores, while Weiner has > done the more thorough search, looking for evidence of the instruments > and players Shifrin does not eliminate the alto from the past as much > as does Weiner. (I need to go make a xerox of the Weiner article so I > can refresh my memory of it.) > > > I'm not sure anyone can say with certainty which instrument LVB wrote > the first trombone part of the Fifth symphony for. If one accepts > Weiner's conclusions, the alto was not present in Vienna, but the part > was extreme even for Eb alto, quite extreme, indeed, for a "Bb alto." > One should note that the trombone writing in that symphony is regarded > as not the most effective, partly because of it's wide spacing - for > example, the long high F (top line treble clef) is 'accompanied' by the > tenor trombone down one octave and the bass trombone down _three_. ALSO, > one has to note that LVB never wrote that high for first trombone again > - conspicuously avoiding the high Ds in the Ninth Symphony fugue, for > example. There are high D's in the Sixth Symphony, but, IIRC, wasn't > that symphony actually premiered BEFORE the Fifth, on the same evening? > (Which makes the answer to the question of "In which symphony by a major > composer where trombones first heard?" a bit trickier.) (Also, the high > Ds in the sixth are approached in a much easier fashion, making it much > more playable on tenor.) > > > This whole area of research has been more interesting to me as a bass > trombonist, who has always assumed that the F bass trombone was > standard, until replaced by a Bb with F valve. With both men's research > we find that the F bass, throughout the classical and into the > romantics, was often desired but rare and considered difficult to play. > The modern large-bore tenor trombone with valve (Conn 88H, Bach 42B) got > it's start sometime in the area of the 1850-60's as a replacement for > the BASS trombone, being approximately the same bore size as the old F > bass. But this Bb instrument that could, with the flip of the thumb > (actually, that flip was not so easy, at first) become an F bass had new > possibilities of timbre and agility and immediately came popular with > several soloists and even the first and second players of some > symphonies, so that by the start of the 20th century Mahler could write > low valve notes for all three or four trombones in the section, and a > still-larger Bb/F instrument was made for the lowest part. > > > Raymond Horton > Bass Trombonist > Louisville Orchestra > > >> When you have the resources to >> do it according to the way Beethoven conceived it, I see no reason to >> argue that in the past it *wasn't* always performed that way. >> >> Now, if you're a community orchestra and lack the instruments, you >> could definitely use the argument that Beethoven's contemporaries >> made do, and that's fine. I don't see much need for arguments like >> that, since even though I'm all for historically informed >> performance, I believe that if that becomes a barrier to groups >> wanting to play the work, then it's better to toss performance >> practice and make do with what you have -- no need for any >> justification from historical prac
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
And is pedal b-flat out of the question?
ajr
> Weiner's work has barely been scratched here. One of his findings is
> that the use of "falset" notes ("faked" low notes) on tenor trombone was
> described in some sources and position charts (I won't try to recall
> where and when without the article in front of me) much earlier than
> many of us would have thought. These notes (Eb below the bass clef in
> fourth position, D in fifth, etc.) which are particularly easy to play
> on smaller-bore instruments, were commonly known in the late 19th
> century, but there is evidence that these notes were often used in the
> classical era to play "bass trombone" notes below low E on a Bb
> trombone. This is Weiner's theory, for example, for the wide-ranging
> bass trombone part to Haydn's _Creation_. This part would not be
> playable on an F bass trombone at any rate - ranging from to G above the
> staff to Bb and C below (the C could be played on a F bass trombone but
> not the Bb) but could be played on a Bb instrument using these falset
> notes (the Bb is the fundamental). The only other explanations for that
> range are composer ignorance (always a possibility, since Haydn had not
> written for trombone much) or his anticipation of the invention of the
> F-attachment by forty or fifty years! Again, Weiner's best assessment
> of the instruments played by the Germans brought to England for the
> premiere of the work is three Bb trombones, with different sized
> mouthpieces.
>
>
> Both Shifrin and Weiner have made huge strides in this area of
> scholarship. What is on the web is only a sample. Shifrin's work is
> aimed mostly at the orchestral symphonic player, trying to determine
> which instruments were written for, and which a modern player should
> use. (Another useful area of his work is to determine which 19th and
> early 20th century works were written for valve trombone, such as all of
> Dvorak, but not the early Rossini operas.) Weiner's work is more
> comprehensive and historical. Weiner criticizes Shifrin for sloppy
> scholarship, but I don't see it. Shifrin has combed through Europe,
> examining hundreds of autographs and parts - I'm sure he has been
> through the Vienna Symphony library in addition to many others.
>
>
> I would even venture to say that their work is so well-documented that
> anyone who wants to dispute would need, at this point, to come up with
> some examples. If anyone on this list is so certain of more common use
> of trombones pitched in higher or lower keys, one should show
> documentation of same.
>
>
> Raymond Horton
> Bass Trombonist,
> Louisville Orchestra
>
>
> David W. Fenton wrote:
>> On 21 Jan 2009 at 21:55, Christopher Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Jan 21, 2009, at 8:26 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
>>>
>>>
On 20 Jan 2009 at 23:53, Christopher Smith wrote:
> Here's an article
>
> http://www.britishtrombonesociety.org/resources/shifrin/chapter-1-
> from-beethoven-to-schumann.html
>
> He deals with the post-Beethoven symphonic writing for trombone. The
> gist is: even though the score may be written in a certain clef and
> the tessitura may suit one instrument or another, there is no firm
> rule determining what instrument was written for, preferred, or
> actually used (the three are completely independent of each other.)
>
I'm sorry, Christopher, but I don't see anything in that article that
supports your interpretation of it. Can you elucidate?
>>> Sorry, the site seems to have restructured itself since I posted the
>>> link! 8-)
>>>
>>> In Chapter 1:1:3 he discusses the problems assembling a full trombone
>>> section in cities other than Vienna, saying, "...the ideal number of
>>> trombonists that made up a Beethoven trombone section may have been
>>> any number that was available."
>>>
>>
>> This is one of those logical fallacies -- absence of evidence is not
>> evidence of absence. I have a hard time believing that Vienna, with a
>> major Catholic cathedral in it (and any number of other churches with
>> full-fledged musical establishments), would have lacked for
>> trombonists. Maybe not great ones, but still.
>>
>>
>>> Chap 1:3:1, Schubert puts all trombones on one staff in his scores in
>>> one clef (tenor) though he probably intended it for ATB trio. Though
>>> the range suits tenor trombone on the first part (AND the third, says
>>> me, except for a rare low note!), a modern tenor is probably too
>>> heavy. Because the parts were copied in tenor clef in an early
>>> edition, it was often played on tenor trombone, against the probable
>>> intent of the composer.
>>>
>>> Footnote 118, "as to the clefs used to notate these instruments,
>>> great confusion reigns"
>>>
>>
>> A composer's autograph score in the period of Schubert is nothing but
>> a guide to the copyist for creating parts. I see nothing at all there
>> in what you quote that suggests anything in regard to evidence about
Re: [Finale] OT trombones in Beethoven
Can someone tell me where one of these great-octave C's for bass 'bone is in something by Beethoven or Mozart? I recall an instance in the Brahms 1st symphony chorale, but not in the works of the other two. ajr, now waiting for the orginal three tenors to take their bow! > > On 21-Jan-09, at 21-Jan-09 3:02 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: > >> >> On Jan 20, 2009, at 7:38 PM, Ray Horton wrote: >> >>> ... the most common trombone section of the classical era was >>> three Bb tenors. >>> >> >> Both Mozart and Beethoven (and at least a few early Romantics) >> routinely write the bass trombone down to C. No valveless tenor can >> play this note. So much for that theory. > > What Ray said was that three tenors was the most common section that > PERFORMED in the classical era. These composers may very well have > written the notes, but they weren't played on a bass instrument very > often, by all reports. > > Also, "routinely" might be a bit of an exaggeration. A C might show > up from time to time, but not in every work by a long shot. They may > have written it when they knew they were going to have the player, > which might not have been all that often (it might say more about my > lack of wide experience when I say that I have never seen Mozart > write a C.) > > Christopher > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Trombones (OT; was Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed)
And such honors should be accorded all the instruments!
ajr
who joined in with the rest of the sackbuts in the balcony playing the
drones for the Orfeo toccata when we did it in Bloomington
> At 8:16 PM -0600 1/20/09, arabu...@cowtown.net wrote:
>>It all depends on which "big boys" you're talking about. Even in some of
>>those operas you mentioned trombone players sit around and hear everybody
>>else make the piece while they count TACETs. They only play in 2 out of 5
>>acts of Orfeo (and let's not split hairs over whether or not the opening
>>toccata is part of the first act), 30 seconds or so in Idomoneo, and a
>> few
>>places near the end of Don Giovanni. They are entirely absent from so
>> much
>>of the standard operatic, symphonic, and concerto literature. Lotsa "big
>>boy" stuff with no 'bones at all.
>
> Sure, Aaron, but that's precisely because
> trombones DID have metaphysical associations, so
> when they WERE called for in operas it was for
> those associations and they were only used for
> those associations. Bach didn't write for
> trombones (even though they may have been
> available in the Leipzig Town Band), but he did
> write for other instruments only when he needed
> their metaphysical associations, notably his
> association of the viola da gamba with death.
> There's a set of Serpent Trombones/Sackbutts in
> the Cincinnati Art Museum designed not only with
> serpent heads instead of bells, but with metal
> tongues in the mouths, designed to rattle when
> they were played! The were SUPPOSED to sound
> like Hell!!!
>
> Monteverdi obviously knew all this, and probably
> his aristocratic audience did as well, so their
> sudden appearance to announce Orfeus' descent
> into Hades and across the River Styx was a
> masterful dramatic gesture. (And no, there were
> no trombones in the Toccata, just the trumpet
> corps from the Duke's military establishment who
> played their little fanfare and then went out for
> a beer or three! It was when Monteverdi recycled
> the Toccata for the 1610 Vespers that he called
> for sackbutts.) Same thing for Mozart: a
> dramatic gesture. (Don't get trapped in the
> Community Band mindset that everyone has to be
> playing all the time!)
>
> And while I'm not entirely convinced about the
> use of all tenor trombones for early orchestra
> music as quoted by Ray from someone else, I don't
> know enough to specifically argue against it.
> But history suggests the opposite. The OTHER
> metaphysical association trombones had, besides
> the association with hell or hades, was with
> religious music. Composers at LEAST from Schütz
> (and very likely a century earlier) through
> Mendelsssohn knew and used that association as
> well. Mozart called for alto, tenor and bass
> doubling the alto, tenor and bass choral lines in
> many of his sacred works, and the only reason
> Mendeslssohn used trombones in his "Reformation"
> symphony was because of that religious reference.
>
> And finally, let's not forget that the earlier
> instruments were not anything like modern
> trombones, but were more like sackbutts (even
> though the Italians used the term "trombone," or
> "big trumpet," from the beginning): very narrow
> bore, very small bells, and tone quality that
> blended beautifully with voices instead of
> blowing them off the stage. The Gabriellis
> certainly understood that. Early
> tombones/sackbutts appeared early in the 16th
> century (or maybe even in the 15th) in a family
> of small, medium and large sizes, just as other
> instrument families of the time did. The
> frottola composer, Bartolomeo Tromboncino ("Bart
> who played the little--alto!--trombone") was
> active from c. 1470-c. 1535! Even the late 17th
> and early 18th century "brass quintet" music was
> written for 2 cornetti and alto, tenor, and bass
> sackbutts. So I would have to see pretty
> convincing evidence that 19th century orchestras
> did NOT continue that tradition (although that
> evidence may indeed exist).
>
> I'm afraid that some symphony players--or at
> least those who cut their music history classes
> regularly!--may have a somewhat narrow view of
> how certain instruments were used in the earlier,
> pre-symphony days of their popularity. I doubt
> that anything close to an 8H ever existed prior
> to the 20th century. My own first trombone, in
> the early '50s, was a used and very nice
> small-bore tenor that was pretty typical of the
> first half of the century. I went from that to
> an Olds Ambassador tenor, then a King bass (more
> like a baritone!) I bought from the bass
> trombonist in the Airmen of Note, and finally the
> 72H I still have and still play.
>
> John
>
>
> --
> John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
> Virginia Tech Department of Music
> College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
> Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
> Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
> (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
>
> "We never p
Re: [Finale] Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed by itself (Somewhat OT)
It all depends on which "big boys" you're talking about. Even in some of those operas you mentioned trombone players sit around and hear everybody else make the piece while they count TACETs. They only play in 2 out of 5 acts of Orfeo (and let's not split hairs over whether or not the opening toccata is part of the first act), 30 seconds or so in Idomoneo, and a few places near the end of Don Giovanni. They are entirely absent from so much of the standard operatic, symphonic, and concerto literature. Lotsa "big boy" stuff with no 'bones at all. ajr > Christopher Smith: > >> Yup, we see it as making us wait 300 years to play with the big boys, >> THEN we STILL have to wait until the last freakin' movement when our >> chops are nice and stiff from lack of use, THEN he makes the first >> trombone enter (first entrance in HISTORY, not just this symphony!) >> cold on a high C (almost guaranteed to chip it and embarrass the >> entire brotherhood as a result) AND later in the movement he makes him >> play a high F (this is test!) just to see if he was paying attention. >> To my knowledge, there is no higher note written in the standard >> repertoire until late in the 20th century. Talk about your opening >> night nerves! > > OK, where to start? Trombones had been "playing with the big boys" > since at least the sixteenth century. Just not in a *symphony.* The > first trombone part in this symphony (as in most others through the > end of the 19th century) was an *alto* trombone, for which the high C > is no big deal at all, and the top F was the conventional and > long-standing top note. > > >> Although in the 9th, the voice of God is represented by the men in the >> chorus, plus the bass trombone. We trombonists see that as typical >> typecasting. 8-) > > Yes it is. Trombones had a regular presence in operas, oratorios and > the like for some 200 years before Beethoven, and there they were > almost always used to represent the underworld and the infernal. Famous > examples include Monteverdi's _Orfeo_, Mozart's _Don Giovanni_, and his > _Requiem_. The symbolic use of trombones in this way is still to be > seen today in, e.g., the Requiem of Ligeti. Beethoven's use of > trombones in the 9th, as well as the voices, was a deliberate borrowing > of conventions that his audience would have regarded as religious. > On Jan 19, 2009, at 10:36 PM, wrote: > Beethoven 5 is usually considered the first appearance in a > symphony of > trombones, contrabassoon, and piccolo. The contrabassoon mostly > doubles > the string bass parts. When my community orchestra played Beethoven > 5 > years ago the contra was just left out, and not missed. > > Again, it is important to understand that the contrabassoon existed and > was used for some 200 years before Beethoven--just not in a symphony. > Handel wrote for it in the original version of his _Royal Fireworks > Music_ for example, and Mozart in his _Masonic Funeral Music_. Prior to > the postromantics, however, the instrument was used with extreme > caution simply to reinforce the bass line at 16', and is almost > inaudible in any of the works that include it. This kind of writing can > be seen (not often heard!) in music as late as Ives' Second Symphony > and Ruggles' _Men and Mountains_. Ironically, the near-inaudible parts > in Beethoven's 9th and his _Missa Solemnis_ are among the most > difficult ever written, and are standard audition fare for > contrabassoonists. > > Andrew Stiller > Kallisti Music Press > http://www.kallistimusic.com/ > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed by itself (SomewhatOT)
Hmm--we don't have any film of my trying those notes--the colors were probably hysterical! I only took my trombone concerto up to d". ajr > Yup - had no choice.My trombonists didn't have alto 'bones and their > faces turned some rather unfortunate shades when attempting the original > pitches > > Les Marsden > (209) 966-6988 > New Cell: (559) 708-6027 > 7145 Snyder Creek Road > Mariposa, CA 95338-9641 > > Founding Music Director and Conductor, > The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra > Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! > > http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html > http://www.geocities.com/~jbenz/lesbio.html > > - Original Message - > From: arabu...@cowtown.net > To: finale@shsu.edu > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 5:07 PM > Subject: Re: [Finale] Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed by itself > (SomewhatOT) > > > Is that the version you played, Les? B & H also has one like that, and > it > isn't anything to get excited about. > > ajr > > > Well..they actually may have had good reason: some editions (I > believe > > Boosey is one) swap the higher alto trombone licks with the trumpets > == > > and so ultimately, in this arranged version, the 'bones really don't > have > > much to get excited about! > > > > Les Marsden > > (209) 966-6988 > > New Cell: (559) 708-6027 > > 7145 Snyder Creek Road > > Mariposa, CA 95338-9641 > > > > Founding Music Director and Conductor, > > The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra > > Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! > > > > http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html > > http://www.geocities.com/~jbenz/lesbio.html > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed by itself (SomewhatOT)
Is that the version you played, Les? B & H also has one like that, and it isn't anything to get excited about. ajr > Well..they actually may have had good reason: some editions (I believe > Boosey is one) swap the higher alto trombone licks with the trumpets == > and so ultimately, in this arranged version, the 'bones really don't have > much to get excited about! > > Les Marsden > (209) 966-6988 > New Cell: (559) 708-6027 > 7145 Snyder Creek Road > Mariposa, CA 95338-9641 > > Founding Music Director and Conductor, > The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra > Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! > > http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html > http://www.geocities.com/~jbenz/lesbio.html > > - Original Message - > From: Dean M. Estabrook > To: finale@shsu.edu > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 1:26 PM > Subject: Re: [Finale] Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed by itself > (SomewhatOT) > > > Geez ... and the trb. section looked so calm the other night! > Perhaps they were petrified. > > Thanks, > > Dean > > On Jan 20, 2009, at 12:12 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: > > > Yup, we see it as making us wait 300 years to play with the big > > boys, THEN we STILL have to wait until the last freakin' movement > > when our chops are nice and stiff from lack of use, THEN he makes > > the first trombone enter (first entrance in HISTORY, not just this > > symphony!) cold on a high C (almost guaranteed to chip it and > > embarrass the entire brotherhood as a result) AND later in the > > movement he makes him play a high F (this is test!) just to see if > > he was paying attention. To my knowledge, there is no higher note > > written in the standard repertoire until late in the 20th century. > > Talk about your opening night nerves! > > > > And I don't have any first-hand knowledge of how those trombonists > > made out their first night, but after the 6th (he gave them another > > chance), Ludwig didn't write trombones into a symphony again until > > the 9th, so maybe that is a hint. > > > > Although in the 9th, the voice of God is represented by the men in > > the chorus, plus the bass trombone. We trombonists see that as > > typical typecasting. 8-) > > > > Christopher > > > > (strictly speaking, there were trombones the year before Beethoven > > in Eggert's Symphony in Eflat, but he wasn't as influential, so > > Beethoven gets the credit here. Chalk one up for P.R. and > > reputation...) > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Fwd: Re: [Finale] Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed by itself (Somewhat OT)]
Original Message Subject: Re: [Finale] Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed by itself (Somewhat OT) From:"Mariposa Symphony Orchestra" Date:Tue, January 20, 2009 2:07 pm To: finale@shsu.edu Cc: arabu...@cowtown.net -- (Aaron - could you forward this to the list for me in the event it doesn't make it on its own?Yahoogroups has (I've been told) probably erroneously misidentified my entire ISP as a s-p-a-m source and it's affected ALL my yahoogroup membershipsthanks!) And perhaps most important is the fact that those instruments (contra, piccolo and trombones) don't make their initial entrances until the fourth movement - Beethoven (1808) saved them for the finale, which certainly makes their presence all the more impressiveand Schumann many years (1850) later similarly held his trombones in check in the Rhenish Symphony - allowing them into the mix only for the (final) fourth and fifth movements. For that similar 'wow' factor - and as well, to impart that church-like solemnity into the fourth-movement stern chorale. I've recently done both the Rhenish and the Beethoven Fifth (my trombonists weren't too pleased with me!) - and both composers certainly knew what they were doing in using their instruments judiciously -- !!! Best, Les Les Marsden (209) 966-6988 New Cell: (559) 708-6027 7145 Snyder Creek Road Mariposa, CA 95338-9641 Founding Music Director and Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony Orchestra Music and Mariposa? Ah, Paradise!!! http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.html http://www.geocities.com/~jbenz/lesbio.html - Original Message - From: arabu...@cowtown.net To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed by itself (Somewhat OT) I would look askance at any history class dealing with music of this time period that didn't include this fact. Then again, as a former trombone player, it is a red-letter event which we all celebrate! ajr > Ah, thank you sir. That was a fact which escaped my undergrad Music > History class ... or, more likely, I was gone that day, enjoying the > many allurements of the greater Tucson, AZ environs. > > Dean > > On Jan 19, 2009, at 10:36 PM, wrote: > >> Beethoven 5 is usually considered the first appearance in a >> symphony of >> trombones, contrabassoon, and piccolo. The contrabassoon mostly >> doubles >> the string bass parts. When my community orchestra played Beethoven 5 >> years ago the contra was just left out, and not missed. Another >> community >> orchestra gave the part to a tuba. >> >> ajr >> >>> Speaking of bassoons, I went to a symphony concert this weekend, >>> wherein was performed Beethoven 5. Included in the instrumentation >>> was a Contra Bassoon, which was used only (as best I could see) in >>> the last movement, doubling the Third Bone part. I don't have a >>> score to the work, so can anyone tell me if that is a standard >>> instrumentation, or an edition of which I've not heard before, or >>> perhaps the conductor just wanted the bass sound reinforced? >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> >>> Dean >>> >>> On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:40 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: >>> On Jan 19, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: > On Mon, January 19, 2009 2:39 pm, Robert Patterson wrote: >> Can the down-arrowhead be an outline for a dotted-half value? > > I don't know. He only identifies the solid version of each symbol, > which > is typical throughout the book. Since the book is 1966 (DE) 1972 > (EN), I'd > imagine things might have been clarified since. > > Dennis > Speaking as a bassoonist, I can assure you that any notation you use will be unfamiliar, and so *must* be accompanied with a verbal instruction such as "reed only" or the like. As a composer, I would use X-shaped noteheads, add the instruction "with reed only", and place the notes on the middle line of the staff. On any subsequent recurrences, I would shorten the instruction just to "reed." If I wanted the buzz to vary in pitch, I would eliminate the staff lines and place the various (X-shaped) noteheads at higher or lower levels within the blank space. I would use this same notation for the oboe, and for clarinet/sax/ brass mouthpiece played alone (except of course that the instruction would be "mouthpiece alone"). Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >>> >>> Canto erg
Re: [Finale] Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed by itself (Somewhat OT)
I would look askance at any history class dealing with music of this time period that didn't include this fact. Then again, as a former trombone player, it is a red-letter event which we all celebrate! ajr > Ah, thank you sir. That was a fact which escaped my undergrad Music > History class ... or, more likely, I was gone that day, enjoying the > many allurements of the greater Tucson, AZ environs. > > Dean > > On Jan 19, 2009, at 10:36 PM, wrote: > >> Beethoven 5 is usually considered the first appearance in a >> symphony of >> trombones, contrabassoon, and piccolo. The contrabassoon mostly >> doubles >> the string bass parts. When my community orchestra played Beethoven 5 >> years ago the contra was just left out, and not missed. Another >> community >> orchestra gave the part to a tuba. >> >> ajr >> >>> Speaking of bassoons, I went to a symphony concert this weekend, >>> wherein was performed Beethoven 5. Included in the instrumentation >>> was a Contra Bassoon, which was used only (as best I could see) in >>> the last movement, doubling the Third Bone part. I don't have a >>> score to the work, so can anyone tell me if that is a standard >>> instrumentation, or an edition of which I've not heard before, or >>> perhaps the conductor just wanted the bass sound reinforced? >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> >>> Dean >>> >>> On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:40 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: >>> On Jan 19, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: > On Mon, January 19, 2009 2:39 pm, Robert Patterson wrote: >> Can the down-arrowhead be an outline for a dotted-half value? > > I don't know. He only identifies the solid version of each symbol, > which > is typical throughout the book. Since the book is 1966 (DE) 1972 > (EN), I'd > imagine things might have been clarified since. > > Dennis > Speaking as a bassoonist, I can assure you that any notation you use will be unfamiliar, and so *must* be accompanied with a verbal instruction such as "reed only" or the like. As a composer, I would use X-shaped noteheads, add the instruction "with reed only", and place the notes on the middle line of the staff. On any subsequent recurrences, I would shorten the instruction just to "reed." If I wanted the buzz to vary in pitch, I would eliminate the staff lines and place the various (X-shaped) noteheads at higher or lower levels within the blank space. I would use this same notation for the oboe, and for clarinet/sax/ brass mouthpiece played alone (except of course that the instruction would be "mouthpiece alone"). Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >>> >>> Canto ergo sum >>> >>> Dean M. Estabrook >>> http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Finale mailing list >>> Finale@shsu.edu >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >>> >> >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > Canto ergo sum > > Dean M. Estabrook > http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home > > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation for buzzing a bassoon reed by itself (Somewhat OT)
Beethoven 5 is usually considered the first appearance in a symphony of trombones, contrabassoon, and piccolo. The contrabassoon mostly doubles the string bass parts. When my community orchestra played Beethoven 5 years ago the contra was just left out, and not missed. Another community orchestra gave the part to a tuba. ajr > Speaking of bassoons, I went to a symphony concert this weekend, > wherein was performed Beethoven 5. Included in the instrumentation > was a Contra Bassoon, which was used only (as best I could see) in > the last movement, doubling the Third Bone part. I don't have a > score to the work, so can anyone tell me if that is a standard > instrumentation, or an edition of which I've not heard before, or > perhaps the conductor just wanted the bass sound reinforced? > > Thanks in advance, > > Dean > > On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:40 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: > >> >> On Jan 19, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: >> >>> On Mon, January 19, 2009 2:39 pm, Robert Patterson wrote: Can the down-arrowhead be an outline for a dotted-half value? >>> >>> I don't know. He only identifies the solid version of each symbol, >>> which >>> is typical throughout the book. Since the book is 1966 (DE) 1972 >>> (EN), I'd >>> imagine things might have been clarified since. >>> >>> Dennis >>> >> >> Speaking as a bassoonist, I can assure you that any notation you >> use will be unfamiliar, and so *must* be accompanied with a verbal >> instruction such as "reed only" or the like. As a composer, I would >> use X-shaped noteheads, add the instruction "with reed only", and >> place the notes on the middle line of the staff. On any subsequent >> recurrences, I would shorten the instruction just to "reed." If I >> wanted the buzz to vary in pitch, I would eliminate the staff lines >> and place the various (X-shaped) noteheads at higher or lower >> levels within the blank space. >> >> I would use this same notation for the oboe, and for clarinet/sax/ >> brass mouthpiece played alone (except of course that the >> instruction would be "mouthpiece alone"). >> >> Andrew Stiller >> Kallisti Music Press >> http://www.kallistimusic.com/ >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > Canto ergo sum > > Dean M. Estabrook > http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home > > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] laser printer
> I am in the market for a new black and white laser printer. Need > 1200 dpi. Have always used HP, but open to others. Can anyone > recommend based on recent purchase? Quality probably more important > than price, within reason. Mac user, need network capability. Good > paper handling a priority. > > Thanks. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > I have had great luck with my Brother 2040. ajr ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Viol clefs
Ah--Muskalisches Exequien is GORGEOUS! I like the way the soloist states the phrases subsequently expounded (at least in a musical sense) by the ensemble. ajr > At 6:35 PM -0500 12/20/08, David W. Fenton wrote: >> >>We played two concerts last week, and we played a couple of pieces >>where we had 7 viols playing. That's a pretty amazing sound, but not >>one you're going to hear very often! > > Apologies, List; this should have been private, > but I don't have David's address. > > David: Were you by any chance playing the > Musikalisches Exequien? We did it at Indiana a > good long while ago, when we had 7 viols > available, and it was a really luscious sound, > not what I expected from Schütz. > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition > of jazz musicians. > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Beaming problem
A Balkan folk-dance beat, perhaps? :) ajr > I am using Finale 2008 on Mac, OS 10.5.5. > > I want a time signature to say 8/8 but I want it beamed 3+3+2. I created > a composite time signal of 3+3+2/8+8+8 and then a different time > signature 8/8 to display. When I put in the notes all the eighth notes > have separate stems -- no beams. I tried rebeaming according to time > signature and got the same result. > > What am I missing? > > Thanks so much. > > Jane > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: quarter-tone
Then they put up John Eaton's opera "Danton & Robespierre" in Bloomington the harps were supposed to be tuned a sixth-tone apart, and one piano and half the winds were supposed to be tuned a quarter-tone below the rest of the orchestra. How well they pulled it off is anybody's guess. ajr > > On 20-Oct-08, at 20-Oct-08 3:44 PM, timothy key price wrote: > >> >> Thanks, Dennis, and everyone who gave locations for quarter-tone >> music. >> Well, am pretty sure that all us old farmers who hears the Ives >> pieces must say, >> "Yeh, we had a piano like that once". Also, from what I know of >> Ives, I wonder if it might >> have been his effort at memorialization of the New England >> churches, grange hall, town halls and such >> as each had their own out-of-tune piano. The sound brings with it a >> sweet nostalgia for >> them because they are such a part of Americana. At the time we tend >> to try to forgive the instrument's out-of-tuneness >> for the sake of the greater music being strived for by the local >> musician having to deal with it. (no money for tuning) >> As for developing a greater appreciation for microtonal music, it >> will take more that a first exposure >> to get me very interested. Dennis, your solo violin piece with >> Larry Reed is much more easily >> enjoyed for its subtleties, I think, because it does not have the >> immediacy of the "correct" pitch >> to trigger the out-of-tune response the Ives two piano pieces do. >> Am glad to have heard them all. > > I didn't respond to the original thread because I was busy and the > others were so knowledgeable. But I find that 1/4 tone music is an > entirely different beast than 1/3 tone or 1/6 tone music, because > there is a fair range inside which we hear a note as belonging to a > certain pitch class. For example, notes in 1/3 tone or 1/6 tone > systems that are close to one of our twelve pitches we hear as an > "altered" or "coloured" version of the note it is close to, but 1/4 > tone notes fall into that free-fall area that is neither fish nor > fowl. Try a major triad with the third half-way to a minor third. It > has an ambiguity that I find quite haunting. Some other "coloured" > chords are not as attractive to me as that one in particular, but I > find my ear going to strange associations whenever I hear 1/4 tone > music, especially piano music. > > Check out Bruce Mather from McGill University (with his wife > Pierrette) in his works for two pianos a 1/4 tone apart. Wacky. > > Christopher > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Quarter-tone music
His (Haba's) opera "Mother" is also very good. If you can get ahold of Ives' quarter-tone piano pieces I'd say give them a go. Unfortunately I don't have a workable recording of mhy own trombone sonata. ajr > > Listen to the compositions (especially the string quartets) of Alois Haba. > There is one in 1/3 tones, which I found to be extremely interesting (and > surprisingly mellow sounding). > > Dr.A.S.Weinstangel > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > NEW! cel.647-292-4605 > > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> To: finale@shsu.edu >> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 11:59:47 -0400 >> Subject: [Finale] Quarter-tone music >> >> >> timothy price >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> Hi Dennis, >> >> Was wondering if you had a site where I could stream or download >> (listen to) anything using quarter-tones? Have never heard any music, >> to my knowledge, composed as such. >> What is the basic tonality? I mean, does it mater, whether it is just, >> tempered, etc. tuning? >> Any info would be appreciated. >> Any lack of sufficient anxiety now that the dam is gone? ;-) We all >> need motivation, you know. >> >> Best, >> >> tim >> >> PS. any other type of music which you have taken a liking to? >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > _ > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Brain freeze
I've always been delightfully amazed at Xenakis's praise of "Bolèro" even though it flies in the face of the way that music "has to go." ajr > > > > By George, I think I've got it. > > Thank you everyone. > > > > timothy key price > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > On Oct 13, 2008, at 5:43 PM, John Howell wrote: >> Ostinato: >> My Norton-Grove might be more helpful: "A term used to refer to the >> repetition of a musical pattern many times in succession." The most >> famous example is Ravel's "Bolero," which runs that rhythmic >> ostinato into the ground! >> >> John > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Brain freeze
Beethoven's 4-note motto is certainly persistent and insistent, but as it is not constantly and unchangingly present it cannot be called an ostinato. ajr > In very simplistic terms, is it fair to say that Beethoven's first 4 > notes of his 5th symphony are used as an ostinato? Or is it not > repeated regularly enough? Still not sure how the term is applied or > correctly used and my music dictionary is not much help. > Don't mean to beat this to death. > > tim > > > timothy key price > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > On Oct 13, 2008, at 1:27 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> Aha! Even this new Austinite says "oh-stee-NAH-toh" instead of >> "aw-stin-AU-to." Don't know what the native speakers of Italian now >> living >> in our great state say. >> >> ajr >> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Car dealer in Texas? Where in TX is this? In addition to the terms listed below the English often called a repetitive bass line a "ground bass," or simply a "ground." And if it's 12 bars it may very well be a blues bass! >>> >>> Being from Austin, I would have thought the pun was obvious >>> to you: Ostinato is pronounced "Austin Auto." >>> >>> As for the ground bass, or simply "ground," if it's the same >>> thing done over and over with exactly duplicating entries, >>> is it a "Ground Round?" >>> >>> -- >>> David H. Bailey >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> ___ >>> Finale mailing list >>> Finale@shsu.edu >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale >>> >> >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Brain freeze
Aha! Even this new Austinite says "oh-stee-NAH-toh" instead of "aw-stin-AU-to." Don't know what the native speakers of Italian now living in our great state say. ajr > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> Car dealer in Texas? Where in TX is this? >> >> In addition to the terms listed below the English often called a >> repetitive bass line a "ground bass," or simply a "ground." And if it's >> 12 >> bars it may very well be a blues bass! >> > > Being from Austin, I would have thought the pun was obvious > to you: Ostinato is pronounced "Austin Auto." > > As for the ground bass, or simply "ground," if it's the same > thing done over and over with exactly duplicating entries, > is it a "Ground Round?" > > -- > David H. Bailey > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Brain freeze
Car dealer in Texas? Where in TX is this? In addition to the terms listed below the English often called a repetitive bass line a "ground bass," or simply a "ground." And if it's 12 bars it may very well be a blues bass! Aaron J. Rabushka Austin, TX > At 9:33 AM -0400 10/13/08, timothy key price wrote: >>On Oct 12, 2008, at 5:30 PM, Jane Frasier wrote: >> >>> Ostinato >> >> >>Sounds like a car dealership in Texas. >>This thread has not clearly defined the different possible choices: >>ostinato, chaconne or passacaglia. > > The difference between chaconne and passacaglia may have been clear > to 17th and 18th century musicians (or dance instructors!), but they > are almost synonymous in practical terms. > >>Are there any substantive differences in these terms? ie. Chaconne >>and Passacaglia are harmonic patterns repeated endlessly, > > They are BOTH harmonic patterns and ground basses, and this goes back > will into the 16th century. In fact they were notated as ground > basses, and the bass itself implies a harmonic pattern. Monteverdi > often used a 4-note bass pattern: A, G, F, E, repeated over and > over. But some of Purcell's ground basses are quite extended and can > indeed be thought of as melodies, but they are still ground basses > even though more melodic. The 8-note ground bass in the Pachelbel > Kanon is another good example. > >>and Onstinato is a repeated melody upon which counter melodies may be >> placed? > > Not necessarily a melody, no. In fact much less likely to be a > melody than a rhythmic pattern that is repeated. In the hands of > both Sibelius and Stravinsky that's exactly what it is, with no real > hint of a melody at all. And in the Orff Schulwerk movement > establishing continuing ostinati is a standard orchestrational > method, once again not melodies at all, but repeated rhythmic > patterns. > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition > of jazz musicians. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] natural+sharp before the same note
When we played the Borodin 2nd Symphony in my community orchestra years ago we had the natural-plus-sharp to cancel a double sharp notation on several occasions. Confused the hell out of a lot of people (as did some of those unexpected trans-caucasian augmented intervals!). ajr > At 5:00 PM +0200 10/2/08, Johannes Gebauer wrote: >>After an f## I would like to display a natural and a single sharp on >>the same note, is this possible in Finale? > > I can't swear to this, but does not a single sharp cancel a double > sharp? (Or, of course, a single flat cancel a double flat?) > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition > of jazz musicians. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] subscription problem
We miss you too, Chuck! ajr >> > > Hi all, > > I reset my settings on the web site a couple of weeks ago and I am > still not receiving posts. I miss you all. > > Henry, are you watching? Does anyone have any advice, or are you all > well rid of me? > > Chuck > > Chuck Israels > 230 North Garden Terrace > Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 > phone (360) 671-3402 > fax (360) 676-6055 > www.chuckisraels.com > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Be sure to tell all of your band-directing friends...
Especially obscure early music that's as transcendently beautiful and accomplished as van Wasenaer's! ajr > At 12:14 AM -0500 9/7/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>...about the new band transcription from MMB Music (www.mmbmusic.com) by >>Finale list-member Aaron Rabushka, a publication that brings the subject >>of a centuries-old musical whodunit to life in the colors of the modern >>wind ensemble! Unico Willem Graf van Wasenaers Concertino #2 is a feast >>of tonal and melodic beauty that comes from a series of richly scored >>string-orchestra works whose authorship was in doubt for over 200 years >>and which were often attributed to Handel or Pergolesi. This publication >>joins another Rabushka entry in the MMB catalog, his transcription of the >>overture to Joseph Haydns opera "LIncontro Improvviso." For more >>information contact MMB Music (Concert Music Division) at 8005433771 or >>through their website. > > Congratulations, Aaron, Well done! And no > surprise that a sometime sackbutt player is > working in obscure early music, right?!!! > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition > of jazz musicians. > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Be sure to tell all of your band-directing friends...
...about the new band transcription from MMB Music (www.mmbmusic.com) by Finale list-member Aaron Rabushka, a publication that brings the subject of a centuries-old musical whodunit to life in the colors of the modern wind ensemble! Unico Willem Graf van Wasenaers Concertino #2 is a feast of tonal and melodic beauty that comes from a series of richly scored string-orchestra works whose authorship was in doubt for over 200 years and which were often attributed to Handel or Pergolesi. This publication joins another Rabushka entry in the MMB catalog, his transcription of the overture to Joseph Haydns opera "LIncontro Improvviso." For more information contact MMB Music (Concert Music Division) at 8005433771 or through their website. In addition to these publications from MMB, Rabushkas music shows up on seven CDs from Vienna Modern Masters (http://www.xs4all.nl/~gdv/vmm/), and he is the subject of several chapters of the recent book "Cathy Berberian and Musics Muses", written by the British aesthetician Jennifer Paull and available from Amoris Imprints (www.amoris.com). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Harp gliss grace notes
Yes, text does it in this case. ajr > Do you mean as text? That's how I usually do it (in pedal order, > DCB / EFGA), but I am supposed to indicate the pitches in grace notes > this time. > > I just went ahead and made it a tuplet with no number or bracket, and > changed the note size manually, hiding the extra rests. But it seems > an awful lot of work for such a common notation. > > C. > > > On Aug 30, 2008, at 9:31 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> I usually write out the notes of the scale with the attendant >> accidentals, >> then just indicate the highs and lows of the glissandi. >> >> ajr >> >>> Hey, collective wisdom, >>> >>> When you are writing a harp gliss of the type that starts with say, a >>> quarter note, and is followed by six more grace notes indicating the >>> exact pitches of the scale, how do you get them to line up properly? >>> Mine keep moving left, before the barline and three or four of them >>> before the quarter note. >>> >>> I suppose I could enter them as a sextuplet then manually resize >>> them, but that seems a lot of work for something that is so normal. >>> >>> How do you guys do it? >>> >>> Christopher >>> > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Harp gliss grace notes
I usually write out the notes of the scale with the attendant accidentals, then just indicate the highs and lows of the glissandi. ajr > Hey, collective wisdom, > > When you are writing a harp gliss of the type that starts with say, a > quarter note, and is followed by six more grace notes indicating the > exact pitches of the scale, how do you get them to line up properly? > Mine keep moving left, before the barline and three or four of them > before the quarter note. > > I suppose I could enter them as a sextuplet then manually resize > them, but that seems a lot of work for something that is so normal. > > How do you guys do it? > > Christopher > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Unusual Notation: Anyone know how to do this with Finale?
Is there a version of this that'll work in the more widespread browsers? Sounds like Polish avant-garde stuff (e.g., Lutoslawski)--never had tried to notate like that. ajr > Just wondering if anyone knows how to produce the notation highlighted in > the excerpt posted here: > > http://www.me.com/gallery/#100016 > > It may be hard to read but the brass is performing sforzandos on the > lowest > pedal tones in a free/unmetered manner. > > I'm using Finale Allegro on a Mac. > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Translation help needed: French to english
cuivre = brass (cuirassé may indicate a fairly brassy sound) sourdine = mute(d) toujours sourdine = always mute(d) avec la main = with the hand (not sure how that relates to trumpet playing) div. par putpite = divided by stand à defaut = with the default (probably "as usual") ajr > Dear listers, > > how would you translate to english: > > 1. 'cuivre' (horn-part) > 2. 'sourdine' (horn + trumpet-part) > 3. 'toujours sourd.' (trumpet-part) > 4. 'avec la main' (trumpet-part) > 5. 'div. par pupitre' > 6. 'a` defaut' > > all in a score for wind orchestra. > > Thank you for your help! > > Greetings > Raimund Lintzen > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Translation help needed: French to english
"Pupitre" is literally French for "desk." I'm used to hearing it more often with regard to string players--then again, some orchestra personnel talk often refers to "first-desk men" (showing it's age with the gender bias. The manager of the Moravian Philharmonia, whose English is not always idiomatic even though constently better than my Czech, refered to "pulpits" of string players. To say nothing about what a Yankee will encounter in the United Kingdom! ajr > At 11:22 PM -0400 8/5/08, John Howell wrote: >> >>>5. 'div. par pupitre' >> >>"divide by stand" > > Interesting that two other listers translated this as "divide by > desk." I have never referred to a music stand as anything but a > "stand," never as a "desk." "Music desk"? It even looks weird! The > Manhasset company (I just checked their website) refers only to their > "stands," except when they are speaking very specifically ONLY about > the part that holds the music and not the mechanism that holds it up, > where they do use the word "desk." Perhaps that's a direct > translation of a European word that DOES mean "desk," but it > certainly isn't a term used at my level of performing or teaching. > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition > of jazz musicians. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Unico van Wassenaer
Dank U zeer voor Uw informatie! I will pass it on to the publisher if they think it will be of value to their customers. I do have a recording of the transcription produced in 1993 with the Martinu orchestra in (speaking of mysteries) Zlín, which, as the sound of the orchestra (particularly the clarinets) lets you know, is not far from Mahler's native Kalis^te. Thanks to all list members who helped me with my request here. I sent the result in tonight and we'll see if it fits the publisher's needs. ajr > Aron, > I know van Wassenaers music, there is a very good recording by the > Combattimento Consort from The Netherlands. I think it is powerful > music, invigorating. > Problem with van Wassenaer (Graaf = 2 a's and van Wassenaer = 2 s's) > is that a man of his standing wasn't supposed to compose, or publish. > Nobility doesn't work, remember? > He was persuaded to publish, and so he did, but not under his name. > The orchestral sound of the time was transparent, with strong basses, > and I suppose the music could sound really well when played by a > brass band, with good tubas ;-) > > "Early Music will only stay alive if it surfaces in pools of brass, > or appears in curtains of electronic sound" > > Jan Goorissen > Studio & shop: Schoolstraat 35 | 6828GT | Arnhem | +3126 4434976 | > +316 19198957 > > Ruby Instruments online > > Blockfluteshop online > > Ruby Gamba - de electrische viola da gamba > > KvK (Chamber of Commerce): 09130402 > > Bank: RABO 305719416 > IBAN: NL27 RABO 0305719416 > BIC: RABONL2U > > VAT/BTW: NL0829.78.724.B.01 > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: how to sell an unkown composer?
Hmm--what makes it distinctive? An abundance of melodic beauty that can shoot out of the texture anytime, anyplace, with two double fugues (different kinds) along the way. Sounds like geeky theory talk (that, IIRC, most musicians despise), doesn't it? The edition is aimed at bands because there already is one (if not several) based on the original for strings. I started this transcription by hearing on oboe on the top line of the first movement, and things took off from there. (And yes, there is an equivalent clarinet part for those bands that are double-reed challenged.) Note that there is no contention that Wasenaer imitated Pergolesi or anyone else, just that for over 200 years no one knew who wrote these pieces, and Pergolesi was one of the "suspects" to whom this work and its 5 sisters were ascribed. (When they played this piece on WFIU's Ether Game they required "Ricciotti" as the answer. And interestingly enough the string orchestra version woke me up on the radio in Zlín the morning before we recorded part of it.) My only other band transcription is of an overture by Joseph Haydn, whose name needs no introduction to most practicing musicians. My goal is to get my blurb done over the next couple of days--see if I can turn the ideas from this list into workable and effective sales copy. ajr > At 10:52 PM -0500 7/14/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>I am currently preparing some program notes for a transcription that is >>about to be published of a Concertino by Unico Willem Graf van Wasenaer. >>Who's that, you say? Well for over 200 years his work was variously >>ascribed to Pergolesi, Handel, and the original publisher, Carlo >>Ricciotti. My question to the group is, how do you got about convincing >>band directors to try this composer that they've likely never heard of? >>(Don't know how the "illustrious hand" ascription that worked in 1740 >>would go over in 2008.) Does anyone have any examples of houw to do this? > > Hi, Aaron. No examples, because I haven't tried to do this, but a > couple of thoughts. > > First, I'm surprised that the edition (transcription, whatever) is > aimed at bands, since I assume that the original was for orchestra, > BUT that could actually be an advantage. Bands and band directors > are MUCH MORE OPEN to music that is either new or different than are > orchestras and Music Directors. Fact of life. > > So what's your hook? Why should band directors consider this > transcription? Given that it's 200 years old, what makes it > distinctive today? (Ya gotta have a gimmick!) If it's "just like" > Pergolesi, Handel, etc., why get excited by an imitator? (Of course > *I* might be interested in it, but in the original as early music and > not in a band transcription.) > > Just some random thoughts in response to your post, and probably not > very helpful. > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > > "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition > of jazz musicians. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT: how to sell an unkown composer?
I am currently preparing some program notes for a transcription that is about to be published of a Concertino by Unico Willem Graf van Wasenaer. Who's that, you say? Well for over 200 years his work was variously ascribed to Pergolesi, Handel, and the original publisher, Carlo Ricciotti. My question to the group is, how do you got about convincing band directors to try this composer that they've likely never heard of? (Don't know how the "illustrious hand" ascription that worked in 1740 would go over in 2008.) Does anyone have any examples of houw to do this? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] repeat-sign questions
Hey Chris! Thanks for your answer! I already have my notation established, based on the way Penderecki did similar things years ago. I've used it several times with the Moravian Philharmonic and there was no trouble understanding it. ajr > I would use the .. ehh . . jazz repeat sign; dot slash dot to show > "repeat this pattern". > otherwise it would be difficult to use the same bar numbering when > rehearsing. > / Cb > > 2008-06-22 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Thanks for your answers, guys! I think I found my answer. > > > >ajr > > > >> Create a Staff style that hides repeat bars and use that to hide > the > >> repeats on selected staves. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> - Darcy > >> - > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Brooklyn, NY > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 21 Jun 2008, at 6:25 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> > >>> I am currently working on a piece that has some instruments > repeating > >>> patterns over and over again while others proceed metrically. > To > >>> notate > >>> this involves putting repeat signs on individual lines (these > cannot > >>> be > >>> placed on all staves of the score), often at different > places. I > >>> looked > >>> through the manual under the repeat tool and found no > instructions on > >>> this. How have you all done it? (If there is a recent thread > on this > >>> topic > >>> feel free to guide me thereto.) I am using Finale 2003 on > Windows XP. > >>> > >>> Thanks! > >>> > >>> Aaron J. Rabushka > >>> > >>> ___ > >>> Finale mailing list > >>> Finale@shsu.edu > >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > >> > >> ___ > >> Finale mailing list > >> Finale@shsu.edu > >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > >> > > > > > >___ > >Finale mailing list > >Finale@shsu.edu > >http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] repeat-sign questions
Thanks for your answers, guys! I think I found my answer. ajr > Create a Staff Style that hides repeat bars and use that to hide the > repeats on selected staves. > > Cheers, > > - Darcy > - > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Brooklyn, NY > > > > > On 21 Jun 2008, at 6:25 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> I am currently working on a piece that has some instruments repeating >> patterns over and over again while others proceed metrically. To >> notate >> this involves putting repeat signs on individual lines (these cannot >> be >> placed on all staves of the score), often at different places. I >> looked >> through the manual under the repeat tool and found no instructions on >> this. How have you all done it? (If there is a recent thread on this >> topic >> feel free to guide me thereto.) I am using Finale 2003 on Windows XP. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Aaron J. Rabushka >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] repeat-sign questions
I am currently working on a piece that has some instruments repeating patterns over and over again while others proceed metrically. To notate this involves putting repeat signs on individual lines (these cannot be placed on all staves of the score), often at different places. I looked through the manual under the repeat tool and found no instructions on this. How have you all done it? (If there is a recent thread on this topic feel free to guide me thereto.) I am using Finale 2003 on Windows XP. Thanks! Aaron J. Rabushka ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
When I was using my first computerized notation years ago (called SMUT (=System for MUsical Transcription) the word for "tuplets" was "groupettes" (not, I'm sure, to be confused with "grupetti"). ajr > At 1:23 PM -0500 6/20/08, Paul Hayden wrote: >>I quit using the ottava bassa sign (8vb) _under_ notes several years >>ago when I read (in Read's book and probably on this list) that the >>normal octave sign (8va) should be used. I noticed that FinMac08b >>uses 8vb by default when you use the Smart Shapes octave symbol >>(8va) below notes. (I reset the 8vb symbol so that 8va shows in the >>Smart Shape Options window.) >> >>1. Do you think 8vb under notes looks amateurish? > > Very much so, because it appears to be some programmer's idea and is > not standard notation (as you seem to have discovered). So is the > term "tuplets," of course, but at least that isn't something that > goes on the page. > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Ottava bassa
Or how 'bout the devil's head for a tritone? ajr > I have never seen or heard of a C4 interpreted as C-F-Bb. I've used > that chord symbol thousands upon thousands of times and not once was > it misinterpreted. At least by pros. Beyond that, I don't speculate. > > Maybe it's a right vs left coast thing. I still hate those triangles > for major 7ths and the minus dash for minor 7ths. Ugh. > > *** > J D Thomas > ThomaStudios > West Linn OR > www.thomastudios.com > > > > > On Jun 20, 2008, at 2:09 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: > >> >> On Jun 20, 2008, at 4:31 PM, jd IMAP wrote: >>> >>> To me it's a lot like writing a C4 chord symbol versus a Csus4. >>> I've used both, prefer the former, and I've never had it questioned. >> >> I'm not disputing the original point, but this one. C4 in some >> circles means a stack of 4ths up from C, so C, F, Bb, which is not >> the same function as C,F,G. >> >> It is this that keeps me using the more unwieldy, but crystal clear, >> Csus4. >> >> Christopher >> >> >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] cresc/dim from/to niente
I usually use one of the string harmonic signs or something similar from the articulation collection. ajr > Hi Finale List, > > Finale 2008a Mac OS 10.4 > > I am trying to create a crescendo/diminuendo from/to nothing (small circle > attached to sign). Previously in the Shape > Designer>Ellipse tool, holding down the Shift key to constrain the drawing > one could create a perfect circle rather than an > ellipse (...similarly drawing horizontal/vertical lines in the Line tool). > This doesn't seem to work any more in Finale 2008. > > Is the sign available elsewhere in a library or in the Slur Tool? > > TIA, > > Stephen > > ars est longa, > vita brevis > > Stephen Cronin's home page: http://www.stephen.cronin.name > > > > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: recorders for the 4th Brandenburg
...and speaking of moveable clefs, the only place outside of Finale that I've seen a "French violin clef" that puts the g' on the bottom line of the staff is in Dover's edition of "Die Kunst der Fuge." Has anyone else here had practical experience with it? ajr ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Viola harmonics
If Paganini could pull it out of a violin why not a viola? ajr > At 6:07 PM -0400 4/3/08, Christopher Smith wrote: >>Not fast, they are fine for most players. You will get a gap between >>successive pitches (in other words, legato is out of the question.) > > Not sure why you would say that, Christopher. If legato connection > is required, the left hand can slide up the string very quickly, and > the slide can be covered by the bowing if you don't want it. (In > some cases you might possibly want to hear the slide.) It ain't > rocket science! > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sturgeoun's Law (was Partial tuplets in Finale)
And how is that that P. T. Barnum had it? "No one ever went broke understimating the taste of the American people"? > David W. Fenton wrote: > [snip]> Nobody eats bubble gum for nutrition, but it's quite fun for >> entertainment. >> >> I guess I'm saying that even crap has its place. >> > > You get no argument from me on that point. > > But then would something that shines at being crap be the worst of > American Pop or the best of American Pop? ;-) > > > > -- > David H. Bailey > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Sturgeoun's Law (was Partial tuplets in Finale)
Heck, when a composer dies is when (mahleureusement) his music often starts to live. ajr > > On 27-Mar-08, at 3:18 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: > >> >> I believe my compositions are much better than most of whatever I hear >> commercially, yet I have this strong feeling my compositions will die >> when I die :-( > > Wow, how depressing. Yet, most likely realistic. 8-( > > Christopher > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] (was Partial tuplets in Finale)
I do recall Raymond Lewenthal's "Romantic Revival" that went through at least three record labels before sputtering out. An Indiana-based pianist named Frank Cooper did find some good stuff--IIRC he recorded the Ignaz Brüll 2nd piano concert. But as a whole, the 19th century did produce it's share of stuff that deserves to be forgotten, as has every time period. ajr > On 26 Mar 2008 at 11:20, John Howell wrote: > >> back in >> the '70s someone promoted a Romantic Festival in >> Indianapolis on the theory that there was gold >> among the unknown romantic music, and it turned >> out that there WERE good reasons why they were >> unknown! > > I would be interested to know what was chosen. I think there's a > helluva lot of romantic music that is completely ignored that is well > worth performing. There's even more of it in that period from 1820 or > so to c. 1850, seems to me. > > -- > David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com > David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Partial tuplets in Finale - slightly OT, Ferneyhough
Cut time in 3? Is that the Zeffiro Torna meter? ajr > At 12:20 AM -0400 3/25/08, David W. Fenton wrote: >>On 23 Mar 2008 at 21:55, Owain Sutton wrote: >> >>> (Why >>> notate anything as 2/2, if it's likely to be heard as 2/4?) >> >>This kind of comment makes me crazy. >> >>You notate it as 2/2 because MUSICIANS PLAY IT DIFFERENTLY THAN THE >>PLAY 2/4. >> >>Certain styles of music make more sense in 2/2 than they would in 4/4 >>or 2/4. > > I've got to back David up on this. In baroque chamber music we run > into meters like 3/2 and 3/8 fairly often. My students deal pretty > well with 3/8 (and even with inserted bars of 3/4 intended to make a > hemiola VERY obvious, once we figured it out), but cut time in 3 > throws many of them. Yeah, they're students and not professionals, > and *I* don't have trouble with those meters, but they've been > playing quarter note based music their entire musical lives. > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. The Internet and the Democratization of Music Publishing
Quality = marketability? I don't know how many reject letters I got with rhetoric to the effect that "this is a business decision only and does not reflect the quality of your work." Does it clarify the quality vs. marketablity in the hands of business executives if we substitute Hollywood film industry types for record company executives? ajr ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] O.T. The Internet and the Democratization of Music Publishing
Interesting how much confidence a group of musicians is putting in record
company executives to know and deliver "what's good." Who here has not had
the experience of having music thrown in the trash without being
considered by some executive type or other gatekeeper? Certainly not a way
to discern its quality. When you realize what kind of marketing philosophy
drives so many artistic executives ("if they bought it once let's sell it
to 'em again") it's absolutely specious to assert that it's artistic
quality that moves them. I'm very thankful to find the independent artists
of all types who can get their work out to me and the rest of the public
without being censored/straightjacketed by some who "knows better." It
does occasionally happen.
ajr
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Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Not to mention the low b-flat(s) for the basses in "Frau ohne Schatten." ajr > The basses have a low B. So he wants those with the low C extension to > detune to B. > > Cheers, > > - Darcy > - > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Brooklyn, NY > > > > On 27 Feb 2008, at 6:07 AM, dhbailey wrote: > >> Darcy James Argue wrote: >>> Ray, >>> I don't see what the controversy is. Obviously it's better to have >>> the instruments the composer actually calls for whenever possible. >>> I would love to hear a performance with buccini. >>> But it's not like cellos and basses aren't generally available for >>> a performance of _Pines_. Respighi is just asking them to tune down >>> their lowest string by a semitone for a specific effect in a >>> specific spot. I am still not convinced that it ought to be such a >>> big goddamn deal to follow the composers instructions in this >>> instance. >> >> Interesting, if they're supposed to detune their lowest string by a >> semitone, how do you feel about modern basses playing the part with >> the extension on the low string? It would certainly be a different >> tone than a detuned string on a traditional bass, wouldn't it? >> >> >> >> -- >> David H. Bailey >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> ___ >> Finale mailing list >> Finale@shsu.edu >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Hmm--would be interesting to see who (if anyone) uses the 78-rpm disc for that Respighi specified for the "Janiculum" section. (Are you listening, Roger Norrington?) ajr > At 1:46 PM -0500 2/26/08, Ray Horton wrote: >>And you ignored my question about the buccini, which is a much >>bigger case of ignoring the composer's wishes! > > That's very valid, Ray, but it really breaks down into two separate > questions (at least!). (1) What, exactly, was the Roman Buccina; and > (2) What, exactly, did Respighi want, expect, or intend. (Assuming, > of course that (a) there was no Italian Historic Brass Society > building and playing Roman brass instruments in Respighi's day, and > (b) he wasn't serious about the instruments themselves, but wanted a > certain distinctive sound.) > > Stolba, in "The Development of Western Music: A History," says briefly: > > "A variety of instruments existed in ancient Rome. Aerophones > included the animal-horn bucina and several instruments made from > bronze: the tuba, a type of long, straight trumpet (made in sections > that it together) equipped with a conical mouthpiece; the large > G-shaped cornu, also with a conical mouthpiece; and the J-shaped > lituus. Both the cornu and the lituus were of Etruscan origin." > > On the other hand, the Wikipedia article (citing the 11th edition of > the Encyclopaedia Britannica) says: > > "The Buccina (also Bucina) is a brass instrument used in the ancient > Roman army. > > It was originally designed as a tube measuring some 11 to 12 feet in > length, of narrow cylindrical bore, and played by means of a > cup-shaped mouthpiece. The tube is bent round upon itself from the > mouthpiece to the bell in the shape of a broad C and is strengthened > by means of a bar across the curve, which the performer grasps while > playing, in order to steady the instrument; the bell curves over his > head or shoulder. > > The buccina was used for the announcement of night watches and > various other purposes in the camp. > > The instrument is the ancestor of both the trumpet and the trombone. > The German word for trombone, Posaune, is linguistically derived from > Buccina. > > In the final section of his orchestral work Pines of Rome (The Pines > of the Appian Way), Respighi calls for six instruments of different > ranges notated as "Buccine" (Italian plural), although he expected > them to be played on modern saxhorns or flugelhorns. > > So we've got two descriptions, one of an animal-horn (i.e. conical) > shape and the other of a narrow cylindrical bore. Not much help!! > > And was Britannica reading Respighi's mind regarding saxhorns or > flugelhorns (conical or semi-conical), or did he actually indicate > this in writing or conversation somewhere? And of course the eternal > question, could valveless instruments of whatever bore, dependent on > the natural harmonic series, have played the notes Respighi wrote?! > (Actually the description of an 11' or 12' instrument with a narrow > bore does suggest that it could be played in the upper partials.) > > As I see it, the call for 6 buccinae (Latin plural) was never meant > to be more than allegorical, while the instructions to the cellists > to do something he knew they were entirely capable of doing was a > specific request. And isn't this the piece that also calls for a > nightingale as an "original instrument," or am I thinking of some > other piece? > > How are the buccinae parts usually played? Saxhorns? Wagner tubas? > (That would be kind of a neat sound!) > > John > > > -- > John R. Howell > Virginia Tech Department of Music > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 > (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Well, low B isn't exactly a staple for trombones--not quite a pedal tone, and not that versatile as a first harmonic. Esp for tenor 'bone. I've always found it worthwhile to work around the challenges of instrumental limitations to solve my problems--after, look at what Haydn pulled out of the same necessity! (Also, St. Louis Symphony did program the "Distratto" a buncha years ago--I didn't get to hear it, though.) ajr > I had answered this before, as Carl probably assumed a double-valve > bass trombone (which is standard now), but I just saw a show today > where the tenor trombonist had to play a low B FOR THE FIRST TIME IN > HIS CAREER! He is 47 and has held first trombone positions in major > orchestras and played every kind of gig under the sun, and he said he > didn't even know if his valve slide still moved until he had to pull it. > > I just thought it was funny that this subject came up, and the same > week a guy with so much experience had never seen a written low B > before on a gig. Of course, he IS a tenor trombonist, but just the same! > > C. > > > On Feb 24, 2008, at 8:03 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> A low b natural, such as is found in Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra? >> >> ajr >> >>> John Howell wrote: OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? >>> >>> To E?? I've played on horns that allowed you to switch it to G, >>> but ... >>> what possible benefit would you getb from tuning to E? > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
Well, there were the quarter-tone-flat-to-A-440 woodwinds in John Eaton's operas years ago... ajr > On 25 Feb 2008 at 1:13, Ray Horton wrote: > >> As far as scordatura for winds > > That phrase makes my head hurt. > > -- > David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com > David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
A low b natural, such as is found in Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra? ajr > John Howell wrote: >> >> OK, to ask something seriously, did you have any trouble learning to >> adjust your slide positions when you had to pull your F slide to E? > > To E?? I've played on horns that allowed you to switch it to G, but ... > what possible benefit would you getb from tuning to E? > > cd > -- > http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# > http://members.cox.net/dershem > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
And don't forget Haydn't "Distratto" (Symphony #60) in terms of re-tuning written into the music! ajr > I think the phrase "the exception that proves the rule" comes to mind. > > > Thanks for the example. > > > RBH > > > Darcy James Argue wrote: >> Hi Ray, >> >> IIRC, when I saw her do it, Laura Frautschi made the adjustment using >> the pegs. And yes, the soloist finishes the concerto in the new F#C#AE >> tuning. >> >> The piece is on the New World Records album _Trans_ -- iTunes link here: >> >> http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=215428021&s=143441 >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> - Darcy >> - >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Brooklyn, NY >> >> >> >> On 23 Feb 2008, at 12:07 PM, Ray Horton wrote: >> >>> Solos are different. >>> >>> Is this done with the fine tuners or the pegs, do you know? Do the >>> strings stay detuned for the remainder of the piece? Just curious. >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> RBH >>> >>> Darcy James Argue wrote: There is a thrilling and elegant moment near the end of Lee Hyla's (2001) Violin Concerto, where the soloist detunes the lowest two strings to F# and C# -- **in the middle of the cadenza**. The process of gradually detuning the strings is actually written into the music. I saw the premiere by Laura Frautschi (who also recorded the work with the Boston Modern Orchestra Project) and it was incredible. I'm also pretty certain she played the concerto on her "good instrument," and not a beater fiddle. -- Jazz bassist Red Mitchell is famous for tuning his instrument in fifths instead of fourths -- CGDA, just like a cello, but an octave lower. He talks about it in some detail in this interview: http://www.joelquarrington.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=27 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 22 Feb 2008, at 11:20 PM, Ray Horton wrote: > I said that in case you were going anywhere with "G-string." But > if I read you incorrectly, I apologize. > > > My daughter is a 31 year-old professional musician. You will get > similar sentiments from _at least_ 90% of the pro violinists you > talk to, at least the ones with good instruments. > > > RBH > > > shirling & neueweise wrote: >> >>> Tread carefully. >>> For starters, the violinist is my daughter. >> >> in other words, you are completely unbiased on the subject 8-) >> >> mouthclosedmodeON >> > When I asked a good violinist about detuning the G string, she > said "That's why God made violas." there are just too many layers of things to even begin to respond to in this... >> > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do? now scordatura
I remember that the debut concert of the IU New Music Ensemble featured a cellist playing Pendercki's "Capriccio per Siegfried Palm." The cellist sitting next to me in piano class said that you couldn't give here $3000 to do that to her cello, and I found out later that the guy who played it borrowed a school instrument to do so. Also, the ensemble's director was very fond of saying that a bunch of string players bitched at Monteverdi for asking them to play pizzicato, and that we all know Monteverdi's name but not the names of any of those whiny string players. ajr ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
> She didn't even know what scordatura is. > - Original Message - > From: David W. Fenton > 2. ask if the composer intends for the player to tune the bottom > string down to accommodate the lower notes, and, if so, shouldn't > there be a note advising the player about that. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > Having talked to several violists about the Mozart Sinfonia Concertante, they all told me that they play in in E-flat at normal tuning rather than in D on a re-tuned instrument. Has anyone found anyone who DOES play it as Mozart wrote it? ajr ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] what does a copyist do?
Yes, getting performers to play/sing what I wrote can be a strenuous
political exercise ("you can't mean THAT!"). A 45" choral piece stretched
a choir (=vocal quartet) director beyond his Mendelssohn to Debbie
Friedman comfort zone--he pointed to an octave skip I wrote and said "they
can't sing that." When I pointed out that the exact same skip appeared in
Handel's "Hallelujah Chorus" he blew smoke of the "how dare you compare
yourself to Handel" variety. If I ever write anything for them that lasts
2 minutes we're really gonna have fun!
Those notes that you see in Mahler scores such as "the F in the trumpet is
NOT a mistake" can be quite telling.
ajr
> I imagine experienced violists have seen low B# on more than a few
> occasions.
>
>
> RBH
>
>
>
>
> Christopher Smith wrote:
>>
>> On 22-Feb-08, at 12:46 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote:
>>>
>>> i did the orchestral parts for a not unknown orchestra in germany,
>>> there was a repeated pattern played 10+ times (can't remember
>>> exactly), the whole orchestra played almost the same rhythm, and all
>>> voices had quite similar but not exact contours on different notes.
>>> low note on the violas was C#, the whole pattern played in first
>>> position. then, suddenly, the whole orchestra shifts down a semitone
>>> for the final repetition.
>>>
>>> in this final repetition, the composer had written B#, which i felt
>>> made sense in this context, and we talked about it. you know, new
>>> music + orchestral score = sight reading in performance etc etc. we
>>> discussed both sides and eventually agreed we would leave it written
>>> as B# -- despite fingering considerations and other things -- because
>>> it was so absolutely clear on paper and to the ear.
>>>
>>> so after the performance, some keener from the viola section sez to
>>> the composer: "yeh you know you wrote a low B# in the viola part."
>>> "yeh," sez composer with eyebrow raised in curiosity, "and?" to which
>>> the violist replies that it was obviously an error so they played C#
>>> instead.
>>
>> A!
>>
>> [knocks head against brick wall repeatedly to deaden the pain from
>> hearing that]
>>
>> Christopher
>>
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Re: [Finale] Shifted rests
> I have a 4-staff trumpet quartet and noticed that from mm95 to the end > (mm200) in Staff 1 there was a sixteenth rest that got inserted which > caused all of the notes to be shifted over. Is there a way to just delete > that one sixteenth rest without affecting all of the other staves? > _ > Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we > give. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > I have had that problem MANY times. What you have to do is delete the rest (or note) that isn't supposed to be there, then use Rebar Music under Mass Edit. ajr ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Globally chaning one chord sym
As I understand the plethory of b-double-flats in the finale to Mahler 9 are the bains of many string players. ajr > Darcy is absolutely correct on this one. Chord symbols should convey > their harmonic content directly and as quickly as possible. I hear > about other players on sessions getting charts with dreaded Cb chords > or something written in G# Major (no, really). Unconventional chords > symbols do nothing but inhibit the players and slow down the creative > process! > > Greg > > Greg Hamilton Music Service > Tel: 604.444.9218 > http://www.greghamiltonmusic.com > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >  > >> >> From: Darcy James Argue <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Date: January 23, 2008 8:14:50 PM PST (CA) >> To: finale@shsu.edu >> Subject: Re: [Finale] Globally chaning one chord sym >> Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu >> >> >> I don't see it as a "dumbing down," just a recognition of what the >> chord symbol vernacular actually is in jazz, not what someone >> thinks it ought to be. >> >> If you're on a session and the bass player is lost and you need to >> call out a chord so they can regain their bearings, what are you >> going to call -- "C-flat-seven" or "B seven"? >> >> Chord symbols are for reading, and the faster the better -- if >> you're writing an academic analysis, then I suppose Cb7 has its >> place. But on a lead sheet? I am against anything that might give >> the player pause, even for the tiniest fraction of a second. >> >> And where do you draw the line? Would you use, for instance, >> "Exdim7 - F#MA7"? Or "Ebb7-Dbmi6"? Those progressions may be >> technically correct, but won't win you many friends amongst >> pianists and guitarists. >> >> And "b10" instead of "#9"? Really? I mean, sure, I see your logic, >> but it seems to me like you'd have better luck launching a crusade >> to restore "whom" to everyday English. But, you know, chacun à son >> goût and all that... >> >> Cheers, >> >> - Darcy >> - >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Brooklyn, NY >> >> >> >> On 23 Jan 2008, at 9:13 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: >> >>> I suppose men of good character can disagree, and I do. I have no >>> hesitation at all using Cb as the root of the bVI chord in Eb >>> minor, and I don't believe it causes any problems. >>> >>> As as for the sharps, what else is going to indicate a proper >>> resolution from VIIdim7/III to IIIm7 in the key of Dmajor other >>> than E#dim7 to F#m7? I mean, the dominant chord - C#7 - would be >>> spelled with an E#, so it only makes sense that the VII chord >>> would be E#. >>> >>> I think this is one of the dumbing-down aspects of jazz theory >>> that we can dispense with now in our more-enlightened times. We >>> spell b13 correctly now on dominant chords (instead of the #5 that >>> was ubiquitous 25 years ago) and I am working on the #9 (should be >>> b10) but I can't do it alone. >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> >>> On Jan 23, 2008, at 8:37 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: >>> Although, I would add, this is really not recommend. Rhythm section players *hate* to see Cb's, Fb's, E#'s and B#'s as the root of a chord in a chord symbol, even if they are "technically" "correct." We are much more used to seeing the bIV chord in Eb min. spelled as "B7." Seeing "Cb7" is practically guaranteed to cause a momentary "Wha... ? Oh... okay" during sight-reading. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 23 Jan 2008, at 8:29 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: > > On Jan 23, 2008, at 2:42 PM, Richard Huggins wrote: > >> I did a transposition from E minor to Eb minor. Finale >> converted all the C chords to B. Is there a way to globally >> change them to Cb? > > In the Chord menu, turn off Simplify Spelling. > > Christopher > >>> ___ >>> Finale mailing list >>> Finale@shsu.edu >>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] repeat signs on individual staves
I am currently working on a section where individual groups of string players repeat different patterns until the conductor cuts them off. This calls for placing individual repeat signs on several staves, many of which don't line up with one another. I looked through the manual to find out how to do this, and couldn't find anything relevant. I am running Finale 2003 on Windows XP. ajr ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Two easy doubts [Finale 2008]
¿Es el mismo Tom Johnson que escribió "Failing" para Garry Karr"? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk > Hello all and feliz 2008! > > As I am not working anymore as a copyist I find difficult to answer to > this > two questions of my teacher Tom Johnson. > I would be very grateful if someone can enlighten me with this two small > things: > > This is what he wrote me: > > "How do you convince this new beast [Finale 2008] to select partial > measures? > > How do you make it copy a bar 40 times instead of only once? > > These things should be easy to find in their help files, but I've lost an > awful lot of time trying that." > > TIA and all the best to all, > > Javier Ruiz > > Tenerife (20º today, and sunny.) > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] L.V. with Smart Shape
> John Howell wrote: >> OK, I give up. What the heck is L.V.? (I hate acronyms, and this >> campus lives off them!) > Others have already spelled out what L.V. stands for; usage is in > handbells and percussion, and strings instruments to indicate that the > sound should not be damped, but rather the sound should be allowed to > decay naturally, that is to be "let vibrate". > > ns. > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > Also working as "Laissez Vibrer" in French and "Lasciate Vibrare" in Italian. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
