Re: [Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-18 Thread SN jef chippewa


yeah, but it is still silly.  i have to apply one style in the SC 
for cues and a different one for PT, then in some cases have to 
also add clef change styles, which of course have to be made in 
different transpositions...


Ooh, I've never had to do that with different transpositions. It's 
hard for me to grasp, actually, where one would need to do that. But 
I freely admit your experience is much wider than mine!


horns.  i could also see it being used for passages that should be in 
the tenor clef in the parts (vc/bsn) but may be preferable in treble 
in C scores.


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Re: [Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-18 Thread Christopher Smith


On Fri Dec 18, at FridayDec 18 8:13 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote:



Staff Styles, which is what I use for different clef changes,  
isn't as ridiculous as some other workarounds.


yeah, but it is still silly.  i have to apply one style in the SC  
for cues and a different one for PT, then in some cases have to  
also add clef change styles, which of course have to be made in  
different transpositions...




Ooh, I've never had to do that with different transpositions. It's  
hard for me to grasp, actually, where one would need to do that. But  
I freely admit your experience is much wider than mine!



Your other points stand. I am really enjoying, however, the  
different measure numbers available in score and parts now, since  
the 2010 update.


yes, this is major, but once again, alas, only teasing us.  we know  
they CAN fix these things... but won't do it completely/properly.


Heh, heh! Tease, indeed!

Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-18 Thread SN jef chippewa


Staff Styles, which is what I use for different clef changes, isn't 
as ridiculous as some other workarounds.


yeah, but it is still silly.  i have to apply one style in the SC for 
cues and a different one for PT, then in some cases have to also add 
clef change styles, which of course have to be made in different 
transpositions...


Your other points stand. I am really enjoying, however, the 
different measure numbers available in score and parts now, since 
the 2010 update.


yes, this is major, but once again, alas, only teasing us.  we know 
they CAN fix these things... but won't do it completely/properly.


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Re: [Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-17 Thread Christopher Smith


On Thu Dec 17, at ThursdayDec 17 8:30 PM, SN jef chippewa wrote:




It is high time that MAKE MUSIC sorted this bug.


amen, babycakes!  however, we all know that here, PLEASE PLEASE  
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE send your comments to makemusic support as  
well. the linked parts are yet another otherwise terribly important  
feature that was incompletely implemented and has had only oblique  
and insignificant corrrections to fundamental errors in its  
functionality.




It is the only thing that really holds up the linked parts facility


the only thing, really?  don't you think a feature of this sort  
should by default allow (off the top of my head):


- independent SC/PT adjustments to smart shape start/end adjustments
- independent SC/PT adjustments to stem and beam positioning
- cue notes to be hidden in the score only without ridiculous  
workarounds

- different clef changes in SC/PT without ridiculous workarounds


Staff Styles, which is what I use for different clef changes, isn't  
as ridiculous as some other workarounds.



- umm, some accidental issue that others have had but i haven't  
run into (because mainly transposed scores)
- enclosures to appear identically in SC/PT on expressions using  
fixed font sizes



for grace notes, in some circumstances i have been able to cheat  
using tuplets in another layer (surrouding notes/rests hidden)  
reduced to the same size as the grace notes, but i think this  
solution is more suited to new music than traditional notation.


I could barely imagine this last one! Holy manual spacing, Batman!

Your other points stand. I am really enjoying, however, the different  
measure numbers available in score and parts now, since the 2010 update.


Christopher


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[Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-17 Thread SN jef chippewa



It is high time that MAKE MUSIC sorted this bug.


amen, babycakes!  however, we all know that here, PLEASE PLEASE 
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE send your comments to makemusic support as well. 
the linked parts are yet another otherwise terribly important feature 
that was incompletely implemented and has had only oblique and 
insignificant corrrections to fundamental errors in its functionality.




It is the only thing that really holds up the linked parts facility


the only thing, really?  don't you think a feature of this sort 
should by default allow (off the top of my head):


- independent SC/PT adjustments to smart shape start/end adjustments
- independent SC/PT adjustments to stem and beam positioning
- cue notes to be hidden in the score only without ridiculous workarounds
- different clef changes in SC/PT without ridiculous workarounds
- umm, some accidental issue that others have had but i haven't 
run into (because mainly transposed scores)
- enclosures to appear identically in SC/PT on expressions using 
fixed font sizes



for grace notes, in some circumstances i have been able to cheat 
using tuplets in another layer (surrouding notes/rests hidden) 
reduced to the same size as the grace notes, but i think this 
solution is more suited to new music than traditional notation.




With small scores one can afford...


i think it is unacceptable that any user who paid for the 2007 
upgrade (where linked parts were introduced) even dares to think such 
things.


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Re: [Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-17 Thread Christopher Smith

In case you missed it, here is my kludge (but it IS a kludge!)

The best kludge for linked, voiced parts with grace notes in them is  
to have a different copy of the file with the default grace note  
spacing changed just for those parts. All the other parts (non- 
voiced, or those without grace notes) still reside in the same file  
with the score.


People who make changes to the score can just copy the entire score  
over to the other "grace note" file, as the only thing different is  
the default grace note setting. Should be relatively painless (well,  
considering the gravity of the bug!). Easier than extracting the  
parts, especially if there are many of them and you make edits a lot.


Christopher



On Thu Dec 17, at ThursdayDec 17 2:48 AM, Jonathan Smith wrote:


I agree!

It is high time that MAKE MUSIC sorted this bug. It is the only  
thing that really holds up the linked parts facility, which I think  
is a huge time saver. I just couldn't imagine going back to the old  
slog of extracting parts in every score! You've only got to get you  
head around the section in the manual and just learn how it all  
works, after that it's a breeze.


With small scores one can afford separate staves for each  
instrument, so the grace note bug is not so much of a problem (but  
still a bug all the same), but with orchestral, orch & choir, wind  
orchestras etc., having individual staves for each instrument means  
a reduction in the overall layout percentages making the score too  
small to read comfortably unless you blow it up onto A3 size. It is  
also much easier for conductors when similar instrument parts are  
grouped onto one stave (Horns, Clts, Tpts, etc.) -  as was  
traditionally engraved.


If anyone knows of a work around for the grace note bug I'd be very  
grateful to know. I have tried all kinds of things - altering the  
grace note parameters under Doc. options, dragging notes, changing  
spacing defaults, even inserting hidden notes between the grace  
note and the main note, although this can work to a degree, but it  
plays havoc with spacing in other parts and the playback will never  
be the same.


I'm still on 2009 so I can't speak for any improvement they might  
have made in the upgrades, if any.


Jonathan




Yes, using voicing rules.

Unless you have any grace notes. (There is an annoying bug with  
voiced linked parts + grace notes.)


Cheers,

- DJA


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[Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-17 Thread Jonathan Smith

I agree!

It is high time that MAKE MUSIC sorted this bug. It is the only thing  
that really holds up the linked parts facility, which I think is a  
huge time saver. I just couldn't imagine going back to the old slog  
of extracting parts in every score! You've only got to get you head  
around the section in the manual and just learn how it all works,  
after that it's a breeze.


With small scores one can afford separate staves for each instrument,  
so the grace note bug is not so much of a problem (but still a bug  
all the same), but with orchestral, orch & choir, wind orchestras  
etc., having individual staves for each instrument means a reduction  
in the overall layout percentages making the score too small to read  
comfortably unless you blow it up onto A3 size. It is also much  
easier for conductors when similar instrument parts are grouped onto  
one stave (Horns, Clts, Tpts, etc.) -  as was traditionally engraved.


If anyone knows of a work around for the grace note bug I'd be very  
grateful to know. I have tried all kinds of things - altering the  
grace note parameters under Doc. options, dragging notes, changing  
spacing defaults, even inserting hidden notes between the grace note  
and the main note, although this can work to a degree, but it plays  
havoc with spacing in other parts and the playback will never be the  
same.


I'm still on 2009 so I can't speak for any improvement they might  
have made in the upgrades, if any.


Jonathan




Yes, using voicing rules.

Unless you have any grace notes. (There is an annoying bug with  
voiced linked parts + grace notes.)


Cheers,

- DJA


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Re: [Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-15 Thread Christopher Smith
The best kludge for linked, voiced parts with grace notes in them is  
to have a different copy of the file with the default grace note  
spacing changed just for those parts. All the other parts (non- 
voiced, or those without grace notes) can still reside in the same  
file with the score.


Christopher


On Tue Dec 15, at TuesdayDec 15 5:31 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:


Yes, using voicing rules.

Unless you have any grace notes. (There is an annoying bug with  
voiced linked parts + grace notes.)


Cheers,

- DJA
-
WEB: http://secretsociety.typepad.com

On Dec 15, 2009, at 5:15 PM, Ryan wrote:

Thanks for the clarification. I guess my question wasn't clear.  
For parts
that share a staff in the score, for example Horns 1 & 2, can you  
create a
part for horn 1 and a separate part for horn 2 and have them both  
be linked?


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Re: [Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-15 Thread Darcy James Argue
Actually, it does more than just "make the number of measures in each  
system the same from one part to another" -- or it can, depending on  
the options you choose. It also (optionally) preserves forced system  
and page breaks, distances between systems, etc.


Cheers,

- DJA
-
WEB: http://secretsociety.typepad.com

On Dec 15, 2009, at 4:01 PM, Christopher Smith wrote:

Yes, all it does is make the number of measures in each system the  
same from one part to another. It isn't exactly the same as the old  
technique of copying the contents of horn 2 into the horn 1 part,  
then saving under a new name, because you don't get all the nudges  
and things you did to the horn 1 in the horn 2 part. But it saves  
you having to re-jig titles, and some items can be moved so that  
they get nudged in ALL parts at the same time, so it is a net  
savings in time as far as I am concerned.


Christopher


On Tue Dec 15, at TuesdayDec 15 3:07 PM, Ryan wrote:

Are these parts still linked to the original score, or are they  
separate
files now? I haven't used linked parts in a large ensemble, so I'm  
curious

how people are getting the results they want.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Chuck Israels  
wrote:




On Dec 15, 2009, at 10:33 AM, Paul Hayden wrote:

I completely forgot about "Transfer Layout" in TGTools. It did the  
trick!


Thanks, Chuck.

Paul Hayden



You're welcome, Paul.  2010 users are still waiting.  Tobias?

Chuck




Chuck Israels wrote:

There is a tool in the complete version of TGTools that will do  
what
you need (for v.2009 and earlier).  It is called "Transfer  
Layout" and

it works beautifully.  If you do not have the full set of Tobias'
plugins, this function alone is worth the price.


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Re: [Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-15 Thread Chuck Israels

Yes, but it gets fussy.

Chuck


On Dec 15, 2009, at 2:15 PM, Ryan wrote:

Thanks for the clarification. I guess my question wasn't clear. For  
parts
that share a staff in the score, for example Horns 1 & 2, can you  
create a
part for horn 1 and a separate part for horn 2 and have them both be  
linked?


On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Chuck Israels  
 wrote:


They are still linked to the original score.  Tobias' plugin does  
nothing
to extract them, or unlink them in any way.  It only copies the  
layout from
a part you have worked on and sets up another part the same way -  
the same
measure layout, distances between systems, etc.  This is a  
convenience when
dealing with parts that contain similar music.  Even when there are  
some
differences from part to part, starting with a generally good  
layout, copied

from another part, can save a good deal of time.

Chuck



On Dec 15, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Ryan wrote:

Are these parts still linked to the original score, or are they  
separate
files now? I haven't used linked parts in a large ensemble, so I'm  
curious

how people are getting the results they want.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Chuck Israels  

wrote:




On Dec 15, 2009, at 10:33 AM, Paul Hayden wrote:

I completely forgot about "Transfer Layout" in TGTools. It did  
the trick!




Thanks, Chuck.

Paul Hayden


You're welcome, Paul.  2010 users are still waiting.  Tobias?


Chuck













Chuck Israels wrote:

There is a tool in the complete version of TGTools that will do  
what
you need (for v.2009 and earlier).  It is called "Transfer  
Layout" and

it works beautifully.  If you do not have the full set of Tobias'
plugins, this function alone is worth the price.




Magnolia Music Press

Voice & Pre-arranged fax:  225-769-9604

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230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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Re: [Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-15 Thread Darcy James Argue

Yes, using voicing rules.

Unless you have any grace notes. (There is an annoying bug with voiced  
linked parts + grace notes.)


Cheers,

- DJA
-
WEB: http://secretsociety.typepad.com

On Dec 15, 2009, at 5:15 PM, Ryan wrote:

Thanks for the clarification. I guess my question wasn't clear. For  
parts
that share a staff in the score, for example Horns 1 & 2, can you  
create a
part for horn 1 and a separate part for horn 2 and have them both be  
linked?


On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Chuck Israels  
 wrote:


They are still linked to the original score.  Tobias' plugin does  
nothing
to extract them, or unlink them in any way.  It only copies the  
layout from
a part you have worked on and sets up another part the same way -  
the same
measure layout, distances between systems, etc.  This is a  
convenience when
dealing with parts that contain similar music.  Even when there are  
some
differences from part to part, starting with a generally good  
layout, copied

from another part, can save a good deal of time.

Chuck



On Dec 15, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Ryan wrote:

Are these parts still linked to the original score, or are they  
separate
files now? I haven't used linked parts in a large ensemble, so I'm  
curious

how people are getting the results they want.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Chuck Israels  

wrote:




On Dec 15, 2009, at 10:33 AM, Paul Hayden wrote:

I completely forgot about "Transfer Layout" in TGTools. It did  
the trick!




Thanks, Chuck.

Paul Hayden


You're welcome, Paul.  2010 users are still waiting.  Tobias?


Chuck













Chuck Israels wrote:

There is a tool in the complete version of TGTools that will do  
what
you need (for v.2009 and earlier).  It is called "Transfer  
Layout" and

it works beautifully.  If you do not have the full set of Tobias'
plugins, this function alone is worth the price.




Magnolia Music Press

Voice & Pre-arranged fax:  225-769-9604

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230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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Re: [Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-15 Thread Ryan
Thanks for the clarification. I guess my question wasn't clear. For parts
that share a staff in the score, for example Horns 1 & 2, can you create a
part for horn 1 and a separate part for horn 2 and have them both be linked?

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Chuck Israels  wrote:

> They are still linked to the original score.  Tobias' plugin does nothing
> to extract them, or unlink them in any way.  It only copies the layout from
> a part you have worked on and sets up another part the same way - the same
> measure layout, distances between systems, etc.  This is a convenience when
> dealing with parts that contain similar music.  Even when there are some
> differences from part to part, starting with a generally good layout, copied
> from another part, can save a good deal of time.
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> On Dec 15, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Ryan wrote:
>
>  Are these parts still linked to the original score, or are they separate
>> files now? I haven't used linked parts in a large ensemble, so I'm curious
>> how people are getting the results they want.
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Chuck Israels > >wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 15, 2009, at 10:33 AM, Paul Hayden wrote:
>>>
>>> I completely forgot about "Transfer Layout" in TGTools. It did the trick!
>>>

 Thanks, Chuck.

 Paul Hayden


  You're welcome, Paul.  2010 users are still waiting.  Tobias?
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
 Chuck Israels wrote:

 There is a tool in the complete version of TGTools that will do what
 you need (for v.2009 and earlier).  It is called "Transfer Layout" and
 it works beautifully.  If you do not have the full set of Tobias'
 plugins, this function alone is worth the price.




 Magnolia Music Press
 
 Voice & Pre-arranged fax:  225-769-9604

 ___
 Finale mailing list
 Finale@shsu.edu
 http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


>>> Chuck Israels
>>> 230 North Garden Terrace
>>> Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
>>> phone (360) 671-3402
>>> fax (360) 676-6055
>>> www.chuckisraels.com
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Finale mailing list
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>>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>>>
>>>  ___
>> Finale mailing list
>> Finale@shsu.edu
>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>>
>
> Chuck Israels
> 230 North Garden Terrace
> Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
> phone (360) 671-3402
> fax (360) 676-6055
> www.chuckisraels.com
>
> ___
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> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>
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Re: [Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-15 Thread Chuck Israels
They are still linked to the original score.  Tobias' plugin does  
nothing to extract them, or unlink them in any way.  It only copies  
the layout from a part you have worked on and sets up another part the  
same way - the same measure layout, distances between systems, etc.   
This is a convenience when dealing with parts that contain similar  
music.  Even when there are some differences from part to part,  
starting with a generally good layout, copied from another part, can  
save a good deal of time.


Chuck


On Dec 15, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Ryan wrote:

Are these parts still linked to the original score, or are they  
separate
files now? I haven't used linked parts in a large ensemble, so I'm  
curious

how people are getting the results they want.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Chuck Israels  
wrote:




On Dec 15, 2009, at 10:33 AM, Paul Hayden wrote:

I completely forgot about "Transfer Layout" in TGTools. It did the  
trick!


Thanks, Chuck.

Paul Hayden



You're welcome, Paul.  2010 users are still waiting.  Tobias?

Chuck













Chuck Israels wrote:

There is a tool in the complete version of TGTools that will do what
you need (for v.2009 and earlier).  It is called "Transfer Layout"  
and

it works beautifully.  If you do not have the full set of Tobias'
plugins, this function alone is worth the price.




Magnolia Music Press

Voice & Pre-arranged fax:  225-769-9604

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230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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Re: [Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-15 Thread Christopher Smith
Yes, all it does is make the number of measures in each system the  
same from one part to another. It isn't exactly the same as the old  
technique of copying the contents of horn 2 into the horn 1 part,  
then saving under a new name, because you don't get all the nudges  
and things you did to the horn 1 in the horn 2 part. But it saves you  
having to re-jig titles, and some items can be moved so that they get  
nudged in ALL parts at the same time, so it is a net savings in time  
as far as I am concerned.


Christopher


On Tue Dec 15, at TuesdayDec 15 3:07 PM, Ryan wrote:

Are these parts still linked to the original score, or are they  
separate
files now? I haven't used linked parts in a large ensemble, so I'm  
curious

how people are getting the results they want.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Chuck Israels  
wrote:




On Dec 15, 2009, at 10:33 AM, Paul Hayden wrote:

 I completely forgot about "Transfer Layout" in TGTools. It did  
the trick!


Thanks, Chuck.

Paul Hayden



You're welcome, Paul.  2010 users are still waiting.  Tobias?

Chuck




Chuck Israels wrote:

There is a tool in the complete version of TGTools that will do what
you need (for v.2009 and earlier).  It is called "Transfer  
Layout" and

it works beautifully.  If you do not have the full set of Tobias'
plugins, this function alone is worth the price.


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Re: [Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-15 Thread Ryan
Are these parts still linked to the original score, or are they separate
files now? I haven't used linked parts in a large ensemble, so I'm curious
how people are getting the results they want.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Chuck Israels wrote:

>
> On Dec 15, 2009, at 10:33 AM, Paul Hayden wrote:
>
>  I completely forgot about "Transfer Layout" in TGTools. It did the trick!
>>
>> Thanks, Chuck.
>>
>> Paul Hayden
>>
>>
> You're welcome, Paul.  2010 users are still waiting.  Tobias?
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Chuck Israels wrote:
>>
>> There is a tool in the complete version of TGTools that will do what
>> you need (for v.2009 and earlier).  It is called "Transfer Layout" and
>> it works beautifully.  If you do not have the full set of Tobias'
>> plugins, this function alone is worth the price.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Magnolia Music Press
>> 
>> Voice & Pre-arranged fax:  225-769-9604
>>
>> ___
>> Finale mailing list
>> Finale@shsu.edu
>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>>
>
> Chuck Israels
> 230 North Garden Terrace
> Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
> phone (360) 671-3402
> fax (360) 676-6055
> www.chuckisraels.com
>
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>
___
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Re: [Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-15 Thread Chuck Israels


On Dec 15, 2009, at 10:33 AM, Paul Hayden wrote:

I completely forgot about "Transfer Layout" in TGTools. It did the  
trick!


Thanks, Chuck.

Paul Hayden



You're welcome, Paul.  2010 users are still waiting.  Tobias?

Chuck












Chuck Israels wrote:

There is a tool in the complete version of TGTools that will do what
you need (for v.2009 and earlier).  It is called "Transfer Layout" and
it works beautifully.  If you do not have the full set of Tobias'
plugins, this function alone is worth the price.




Magnolia Music Press

Voice & Pre-arranged fax:  225-769-9604

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
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Chuck Israels
230 North Garden Terrace
Bellingham, WA 98225-5836
phone (360) 671-3402
fax (360) 676-6055
www.chuckisraels.com

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[Finale] Re: Duplicating linked parts for similar instruments

2009-12-15 Thread Paul Hayden
I completely forgot about "Transfer Layout" in TGTools. It did the  
trick!


Thanks, Chuck.

Paul Hayden



Chuck Israel wrote:

There is a tool in the complete version of TGTools that will do what
you need (for v.2009 and earlier).  It is called "Transfer Layout" and
it works beautifully.  If you do not have the full set of Tobias'
plugins, this function alone is worth the price.




Magnolia Music Press

Voice & Pre-arranged fax:  225-769-9604

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
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