Re: [Finale] trill notation question
I don't remember who brought it up (Karen, I think? I apologize!), but I really like the idea of tr 1/2 and tr WH, which I have never seen before. It makes perfect sense to me, and is so easy, but it is not (as of yet) common practice. I understand that a tr implies trilling diatonically, but so many composers are writing chromatic scores these days that even a trill must be defined precicely every time. Unfortunately the parenthesized target note is a pain in the neck to do, even with TGTools, having to repair the parenthetical target note all the time (one more thing to forget to do when you're under the gun). Just a comment... Bill Duncan From: Mark D Lew [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:27:05 -0700 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] trill notation question On Oct 23, 2005, at 2:58 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: But if you really want the belt-and-suspenders approach (so your pants REALLY won't fall down!) then tr b would certainly be correct. [...] While I agree that nothing is technically wrong with the tr b notation, I wouldn't call it the true belt-and-suspenders solution. The way I see it, if you don't mark the trill at all, the player is naturally going to trill to Ab. What are the alternatives? Without any markings, there's no reason why a player would think he's supposed to go to Abb (ie, G nat), and trilling Gb to A nat is going to feel very weird, so of course he'll do Ab. If, on the other hand, you actually mark a flat in there, the player is going to double-take and think, wait, why did they write a flat there? It's already flat. Am I supposed to go to double-flat? And then the player is overthinking the situation and unsure what to do, whereas if you'd said nothing at all he would have been fine. So I'd say that the simple solution is to not mark the trill at all, and the belt-and-suspenders solution is either a flat in parentheses or a spell it out with a cue note. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] trill notation question
Chuck Israels wrote: Hard to believe that this is the first time I've encountered a situation in which trill notation is ambiguous, but Anyway, I'm in F minor, and there's a flute trill from G flat, and I want it to trill to A flat. Do I indicate tr natural? or tr flat? Just what do those accidentals on trills indicate? Trills always go to the next note higher within the key, unless altered. In your situation the note you want it to trill to is part of the key, so there's no need to do anything. Simply writing Tr over a Gb while in the key of Ab will get you your Gb-Ab trill. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] trill notation question
Owain Sutton wrote: I'd not rely on this assumption. If the trill was on G natural, then yes, I'd accept the 'diatonic default'. But G flat is far enough away from the tonic key to potentially introduce all sorts of chromatic ambiguity. Not for any musicians I've ever worked with nor for any instructional books I've ever seen -- the rule of trilling to the next higher diatonic note unless there is an accidental indicating an alteration is very UNambiguous. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] trill notation question
On Oct 23, 2005, at 5:41 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: Hard to believe that this is the first time I've encountered a situation in which trill notation is ambiguous, but Anyway, I'm in F minor, and there's a flute trill from G flat, and I want it to trill to A flat. Do I indicate tr natural? or tr flat? Just what do those accidentals on trills indicate? Accidentals on a trill are just like those on a note. If you're in F minor, normally you don't need any trill accidental at all to get an Ab. If however there was an A natural (or sharp!) earlier in the measure, then you need a flat by the trill to cancel it--just as if it were a note. Note, btw, that you can always put in a cautionary trill accidental, just like any other cautionary accidental, by using parentheses. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] trill notation question
Hard to believe that this is the first time I've encountered a situation in which trill notation is ambiguous, but Anyway, I'm in F minor, and there's a flute trill from G flat, and I want it to trill to A flat. Do I indicate tr natural? or tr flat? Just what do those accidentals on trills indicate? Thanks, Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] trill notation question
Chuck Israels wrote: Hard to believe that this is the first time I've encountered a situation in which trill notation is ambiguous, but Anyway, I'm in F minor, and there's a flute trill from G flat, and I want it to trill to A flat. Do I indicate tr natural? or tr flat? Just what do those accidentals on trills indicate? I'd certainly write tr flat. Or, depending on the context, use a small notehead to indicate the upper note. Tr natural would be just wrong - a natural sign does not indicate an interval. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] trill notation question
On Oct 23, 2005, at 2:58 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Oct 23, 2005, at 5:41 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: Hard to believe that this is the first time I've encountered a situation in which trill notation is ambiguous, but Anyway, I'm in F minor, and there's a flute trill from G flat, and I want it to trill to A flat. Do I indicate tr natural? or tr flat? Just what do those accidentals on trills indicate? If you actually have a 4-flat key signature, then no indication is necessary other than tr, as trills are diatonic by default. This is the key piece of information. Can't believe I didn't know that. So the accidentals are only used when something other than the next higher diatonic note is needed. That's clear enough. Thanks, Christopher Chuck But if you really want the belt-and-suspenders approach (so your pants REALLY won't fall down!) then tr b would certainly be correct. Tr natural would be definitely odd, as it strictly means trill to A nat, but since it is never seen in those circumstances, the player might be confused and think you meant to G nat. Those accidentals mean trill to the next upper note name, but with the alteration indicated. You can see that in the key of C concert, a clarinet trilling from D to Eb would have tr b marked in concert, but on the part (in the key of D, trill from E to Fnat) you would have to mark tr nat. One more argument in favour of transposed scores, IMHO. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] trill notation question
Chuck Israels wrote: On Oct 23, 2005, at 2:58 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Oct 23, 2005, at 5:41 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: Hard to believe that this is the first time I've encountered a situation in which trill notation is ambiguous, but Anyway, I'm in F minor, and there's a flute trill from G flat, and I want it to trill to A flat. Do I indicate tr natural? or tr flat? Just what do those accidentals on trills indicate? If you actually have a 4-flat key signature, then no indication is necessary other than tr, as trills are diatonic by default. This is the key piece of information. Can't believe I didn't know that. So the accidentals are only used when something other than the next higher diatonic note is needed. That's clear enough. Thanks, Christopher I'd not rely on this assumption. If the trill was on G natural, then yes, I'd accept the 'diatonic default'. But G flat is far enough away from the tonic key to potentially introduce all sorts of chromatic ambiguity. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] trill notation question
On 23 Oct 2005 at 23:15, Owain Sutton wrote: Chuck Israels wrote: On Oct 23, 2005, at 2:58 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Oct 23, 2005, at 5:41 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: Hard to believe that this is the first time I've encountered a situation in which trill notation is ambiguous, but Anyway, I'm in F minor, and there's a flute trill from G flat, and I want it to trill to A flat. Do I indicate tr natural? or tr flat? Just what do those accidentals on trills indicate? If you actually have a 4-flat key signature, then no indication is necessary other than tr, as trills are diatonic by default. This is the key piece of information. Can't believe I didn't know that. So the accidentals are only used when something other than the next higher diatonic note is needed. That's clear enough. I'd not rely on this assumption. If the trill was on G natural, then yes, I'd accept the 'diatonic default'. But G flat is far enough away from the tonic key to potentially introduce all sorts of chromatic ambiguity. Well, it certainly depends on the tonal context of the trill, but I'm having a hard time understanding where G flat trilling to G natural (A double flat) would be the default interpretation, or even one of the plausible interpretations. I don't consider a Gb to be at all distant in a context of f minor/Ab Major -- it would simply indicate a shift into Db (less likely, Bb minor), which is not far at all from either Ab or f minor. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] trill notation question
David W. Fenton wrote: Well, it certainly depends on the tonal context of the trill, but I'm having a hard time understanding where G flat trilling to G natural (A double flat) would be the default interpretation, or even one of the plausible interpretations. I don't consider a Gb to be at all distant in a context of f minor/Ab Major -- it would simply indicate a shift into Db (less likely, Bb minor), which is not far at all from either Ab or f minor. Fair point. And I guess I'm thinking a bit too atonally here ;) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] trill notation question
Chuck, Use TGTools to create a parenthesized trill note. Check the documentation for the how-to -- once you get used to it, it's great. They even play back correctly with Human Playback. The only drawback is that you will need to remember to always repair trill notes after music spacing. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://homepage.mac.com/djargon Brooklyn, NY On 23 Oct 2005, at 5:48 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: On Oct 23, 2005, at 2:46 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: Chuck Israels wrote: Hard to believe that this is the first time I've encountered a situation in which trill notation is ambiguous, but Anyway, I'm in F minor, and there's a flute trill from G flat, and I want it to trill to A flat. Do I indicate tr natural? or tr flat? Just what do those accidentals on trills indicate? I'd certainly write tr flat. Or, depending on the context, use a small notehead to indicate the upper note. Tr natural would be just wrong - a natural sign does not indicate an interval. The note head method certainly removes ambiguity. Thank you. Chuck ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] trill notation question
On Oct 23, 2005, at 3:50 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:Chuck,Use TGTools to create a parenthesized trill note. Check the documentation for the how-to -- once you get used to it, it's great. They even play back correctly with Human Playback.The only drawback is that you will need to remember to always repair trill notes after music spacing.- Darcy-[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://homepage.mac.com/djargonBrooklyn, NYThanks, Darcy.I'll explore this too. There are depths to TG tools!Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] trill notation question
I definitely like the cue note approach when in doubt. There is another convention that we use in film music when notes are changing rapidly and are all trilled. Especially where there isn't a given key and it would be extremely time consuming to put cue notes on each note. Tr 1/2 and Tr. WH are acceptable in these cases. But again, if there are only a few notes I use cue notes in parenthesis. :-) Best, Karen ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] trill notation question
On Oct 23, 2005, at 2:58 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: But if you really want the belt-and-suspenders approach (so your pants REALLY won't fall down!) then tr b would certainly be correct. [...] While I agree that nothing is technically wrong with the tr b notation, I wouldn't call it the true belt-and-suspenders solution. The way I see it, if you don't mark the trill at all, the player is naturally going to trill to Ab. What are the alternatives? Without any markings, there's no reason why a player would think he's supposed to go to Abb (ie, G nat), and trilling Gb to A nat is going to feel very weird, so of course he'll do Ab. If, on the other hand, you actually mark a flat in there, the player is going to double-take and think, wait, why did they write a flat there? It's already flat. Am I supposed to go to double-flat? And then the player is overthinking the situation and unsure what to do, whereas if you'd said nothing at all he would have been fine. So I'd say that the simple solution is to not mark the trill at all, and the belt-and-suspenders solution is either a flat in parentheses or a spell it out with a cue note. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
