Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
David W. Fenton wrote: Quote: Netscape 6.0 is finally going into its first public beta. There never was a version 5.0. The last major release, version 4.0, was released almost three years ago. Three years is an awfully long time in the Internet world. During this time, Netscape sat by, helplessly, as their market share plummeted. One assumes that this refers exclusively to Windows versions. The Navigator on my present computer is v. 9.0.0.1. And yes, I see that the article is dated 7 1/2 years ago. And that it's an opinion piece, by someone with very strong opinions! Mark of the Unicorn did a complete new program--Composer's Mosaic--in the early '90s, as a replacement for Professional Composer, which was a real dog of a program hardly better than Music Construction Set. And made it possible, no, EASY, to convert Composer files to Mosaic files. Unfortunately they later gave up on supporting their notation program and veered off in other directions. I guess the question everyone seems to have is whether MM is going to do the same with Finale. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
On 1 Nov 2007 at 14:11, John Howell wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: Quote: Netscape 6.0 is finally going into its first public beta. There never was a version 5.0. The last major release, version 4.0, was released almost three years ago. Three years is an awfully long time in the Internet world. During this time, Netscape sat by, helplessly, as their market share plummeted. One assumes that this refers exclusively to Windows versions. Why would one assume that? There was no NS5, and NS6 came out around the time that article was written. NS7 came out after Mozilla 1.0 was released (because it was built on Mozilla 1.0). I don't recall precisely when 8 came out and didn't know there was a 9, but so far as I know there's been no difference between the numbering and releases of the Mac and Windows versions of Netscape. Perhaps you're referring to market share? The Navigator on my present computer is v. 9.0.0.1. And yes, I see that the article is dated 7 1/2 years ago. And that it's an opinion piece, by someone with very strong opinions! Someone whose opinions make a great deal of sense, it seems to me. Mark of the Unicorn did a complete new program--Composer's Mosaic--in the early '90s, as a replacement for Professional Composer, which was a real dog of a program hardly better than Music Construction Set. And made it possible, no, EASY, to convert Composer files to Mosaic files. Unfortunately they later gave up on supporting their notation program and veered off in other directions. I guess the question everyone seems to have is whether MM is going to do the same with Finale. Writing a completely new program is not the same thing as re-writing an existing program. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
David W. Fenton wrote: On 1 Nov 2007 at 2:22, Kurt Gnos wrote: Fix its old bugs, but better reprogram it from scratch, using new technologies This is a really terrible suggestion. If you think the bugs in Finale are bad now, wait 'til you see the new programmed-from-scratch Finale. Consider the case of Netscape, which chucked its entire codebase and started from scratch. The result was that for 5 years, there was no new Netscape browser, and the world moved on and Netscape lost its market share. Joel Spolsky explains why it's bad to chuck an existing codebase and start from scratch: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog69.html Quote: Netscape 6.0 is finally going into its first public beta. There never was a version 5.0. The last major release, version 4.0, was released almost three years ago. Three years is an awfully long time in the Internet world. During this time, Netscape sat by, helplessly, as their market share plummeted. It's a bit smarmy of me to criticize them for waiting so long between releases. They didn't do it on purpose, now, did they? Well, yes. They did. They did it by making the single worst strategic mistake that any software company can make: They decided to rewrite the code from scratch. I didn't read the article but I'm sure the part you quoted makes the salient point, but it seems to miss one variation to that scenario. One need not abandon continued support and incremental progress on the existing codebase while doing a total rewrite in the background. It is possible to hire extra developers to work on the new codebase while leaving some of the existing developers to issue interim patches to the existing product so that the public doesn't need to know that a total rewrite is going on behind the scenes. Then when the newly rewritten code is ready for prime time, they just have to announce a new version, no delay, no absence from the public's mind. It's quite possible to be successful at it -- it costs money, certainly, but it's something auto makers do all the time. They keep on bringing out annual upgrades to existing models until a whole new model is finally ready to present to the public, then they present the new model and decide either to make it an addition to their offerings or to remove an existing model which isn't doing very well and put this new model line in its place. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
John's right -- there are lots of shortcuts. The best thing I can suggest to new Sibelius users is to learn to use the escape key -- hit it whenever you're in doubt (yes, you can still have things selected that you're not viewing onscreen at the moment), and sometimes hitting it twice for insurance is wise. Not difficult, just not something that Finale users have had to think about. One big paradigm shift when moving from Finale to Sibelius is that everything is selectable, there being no tools the way that Finale has them, which you have to choose before being able to select specific things. Yes, I know that Fin2k8 has the new selection tool but even that's a tool and if you're in one of the other tools, you have to exit it by selecting the Selection Tool. And then once you select something with the Selection Tool you are placed into the appropriate tool for that item, and have to consciously exit that tool to work on something else, so you're constantly having to think in terms of tools while using Finale. With Sibelius, you only need to think of what you want to do next. Instead of tools there are shortcuts or menu selections to remember or navigate but once you place something, you can point at anything else and work with it without having to change to a selection tool. So anything which is selected will be affected by what you do, and if anything is selected, the right-click menu will only show what is applicable for that item (or those items -- Sibelius allows ctrl-click so that you can select non-contiguous items to work on.) David H. Bailey John Howell wrote: At 4:11 PM -0700 10/31/07, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Right clicking does not bring up any context menu that has OTHER in it. I get Cut, Copy, Paste, Delete, Capture Idea, Voice, Hide/Show, Color and Apply Color... It's just something you have to learn. What happened is that you had something selected, so you got that short menu of things you might want to do to the thing you had selected. Click on a blank space on the page (or hit escape a few times) to deselect anything that's selected, then right click on a blank part of the page. What you then get IS the Create menu. It's a shortcut; there are LOTS of shortcuts, and I've only learned a few at this point, but I remember the ones I use. Just part of the learning curve. John However, in the menu, there is Other buried under Create.. Sibelius 5.1...frustrating.. Richard Smith wrote: Eric this may be what you want. 1. Right click on a blank part of the page for the context menu. At the bottom of the menu is other. Open that up. 2. Select change instrument 3. Pick an instrument from the list. 4. Click the now blue (=loaded) arrow where you want to change the instrument. You will get a transposition and key and/or clef change as needed as well as a text instruction to the performer to change to the instrument. 5. If you want to change the stave for the entire score, click in the left margin just to the left of the staff. It will change the staff and look as if the new instrument had been the choice fromt he beginning. I think that having multiple ways of doing things has a lot to do with familiarity. I really like Sibelius' step time entry. There are so many ways to enter music that I am constantly changing my approach to fit the particular circumstance. Conversely, I find Finale's Speedy Entry restrictive but many of the workers on this list would certainly disagree. These two are just differently abled and the versatility is good for us all. Richard Smith http://www.rgsmithmusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
David W. Fenton wrote: Consider the case of Netscape, which chucked its entire codebase and started from scratch. Which is kind of my point. A rewrite, using mainly the same kind of thinking, using mainly the same kind of tools, will not solve anything. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
At 7:59 AM +0100 11/1/07, Jari Williamsson wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: Consider the case of Netscape, which chucked its entire codebase and started from scratch. Which is kind of my point. A rewrite, using mainly the same kind of thinking, using mainly the same kind of tools, will not solve anything. I think I understand both sides here, but they leave me confused. Partly because I've used Netscape exclusively since I first gained access to the internet, back in the early '90s, and have never wanted or needed anything else. Yes, it's now called Navigator, and it's based (apparently) on Mozilla or Firefox or whatever, which is supposed to be a big improvement, and yes, I'm learning to use Tabs, but it still gives me the functionality I need. David's reasoning seems to be that Netscape lost money during a fallow period, but that didn't affect me and it apparently didn't cause the company to fail. Wouldn't it be a good business plan to continue supporting a program based on ancient code while at the same time developing a new program with new code and none of the old problems, designed to replace the older program, and able to open ALL files from the old program, regardless of version? But hey, man, I'm just in the band! John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
Ref below for inserted comments -Original Message- From: Eric Dannewitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 8:30 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions John Howell wrote: Nor if you decide you want to change an instrument on a score. I assume that you mean same staff, change to a different instrument, perhaps change clef or transposition, rather than the scenario David explained. I know it can be done, but not how because I haven't had to learn it yet. Either way. Seems like you can't do it easily in Sibelius. You have to create a new staff and then copy all the stuff over? You can't just click the ? staff and change it? Seems non-intuitive to me. Actually it is quite simple. And no you don't have to go through any Gymnastics etc. Ref the below entry from the Sib v5.x help file. Instrument changes Sibelius makes it easy to change instruments at any point along a staff using Create Other Instrument Change. First consider whether you want the instrument change to take effect up until the end of the score (or up to an existing instrument change later in the score), or only temporarily for a specific passage. * To change instrument temporarily, first select the passage for which you want the instrument change to take effect; Sibelius will automatically revert to the original instrument at the end of the selection. * To change instrument permanently, select a single note after which you want the instrument change to take effect, or make no selection (in which case you can click to place the instrument change in a moment). * Once you have selected where you want the instrument change to begin, and optionally where you want it to end, choose Create Other Instrument Change. The dialog shown below appears. screen shot removed for brevity * Choose the instrument you want to change to from the list. The two extra options you can set are as follows: * If Add clef (if necessary) is switched on, Sibelius will create a clef change at the point where the instrument change occurs, if the clef of the new instrument is different to that of the original instrument * If Announce at last note of previous instrument is switched on, Sibelius will create a warning, To [instrument], at the start of the rests preceding the change. Now click OK. If you didn't have a selection before you opened the dialog, your mouse pointer will now be blue, and you can click in the score to place your instrument change; otherwise, Sibelius automatically creates the instrument change (or changes) at the selection. Sibelius always does the following for you when you create an instrument change: * Changes the playback sound of the staff as appropriate * Changes the instrument name on subsequent systems (which you can edit if you wish). If you don't want the instrument name to change, choose House Style Engraving Rules (shortcut Ctrl+Shift+E or xXE), go to the Instruments page, and switch on Don't change instrument names at start of system after instrument changes. * Writes the name of the new instrument above the top of the staff where it starts playing (you can edit this if you wish) * Changes the transposition of the staff, if appropriate (e.g. if switching from a Bb to A clarinet), showing an appropriate change of key signature if Notes Transposing Score is switched on * Changes the staff type, if appropriate (e.g. number of staff lines, tab or normal notation, etc.). So with just a few mouse clicks or shortcuts it has happened.. What is difficult about that? I have done it and it is a breeze What's more.. it works grin Steve Currington Composition/Musicology Student New Zealand School of Music Wellington, New Zealand email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
On 1 Nov 2007 at 4:44, dhbailey wrote: It's quite possible to be successful at it -- it costs money, certainly, but it's something auto makers do all the time. They keep on bringing out annual upgrades to existing models until a whole new model is finally ready to present to the public, then they present the new model and decide either to make it an addition to their offerings or to remove an existing model which isn't doing very well and put this new model line in its place. Well, as a software developer, I have to say that it just doesn't work the same way. And, I think you are overrating the degree to which any new automobile model is completely new -- it's not. The changes are usually incremental, based on engineering practices that have been in place for a very long time. Eventually, after 10 years of incremental changes, you might have an automobile that no longer retains any design characteristics that were present 10 years before, but it never happens the way you describe it. And there are good reasons for that and those reasons are not so very different from software. When automakers *really* want to launch completely new models, they create a completely new brand, such as GM did with Saturn. All that said, I really do understand Jari's point. I've said for years that the data storage format is the single largest factor holding back the evolution of Finale. It was the same way with WordPerfect (whose data format was sequential instead of pointer- based) -- the data format can greatly limit the capabilities of the program running on top of it. What Jari is calling for (as I understand it) is a completely different approach to the storage of the music data such that the inputting of the notation is free of the limitations that come from that data model. I don't see it happening any time soon, certainly not by MakeMusic or Sibelius, and I don't know who would do it otherwise. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
On 1 Nov 2007 at 13:47, John Howell wrote: At 7:59 AM +0100 11/1/07, Jari Williamsson wrote: David W. Fenton wrote: Consider the case of Netscape, which chucked its entire codebase and started from scratch. Which is kind of my point. A rewrite, using mainly the same kind of thinking, using mainly the same kind of tools, will not solve anything. I think I understand both sides here, but they leave me confused. Partly because I've used Netscape exclusively since I first gained access to the internet, back in the early '90s, and have never wanted or needed anything else. If you designed web pages you'd know how defective NS4.x was (the last version created before Netscape chucked the code). In turn, Microsoft stopped developing their browser for a long time, and right now, web developers have to deal with the fact that Internet Explorer has a substandard implementation of the standards of HTML and CSS. This means that it's harder to produce interesting websites that work on all browsers. Yes, it's now called Navigator, It was always Netscape Navigator. and it's based (apparently) on Mozilla or Firefox or whatever, which is supposed to be a big improvement, and yes, I'm learning to use Tabs, but it still gives me the functionality I need. The Netscape browser you're using today is built from the new codebase, but it really only became usable in 2001 or so (which is when I switched to Mozilla as my default browser, around version 0.9.x, which was more than a year before the release of Mozilla 1.0, and more than 3 years before the release of FireFox 1.0, which is when the Mozilla project returned to viability as a mainstream web browser). It has been built on the new codebase since version 6, but it was a very buggy and slow browser in comparison to Internet Explorer from the same time period. It was, in fact, completely unusable back then. David's reasoning seems to be that Netscape lost money during a fallow period, but that didn't affect me and it apparently didn't cause the company to fail. Eh? What are you talking about? In the mid to late 90s, Netscape was an independent company with a huge market capitalization (they were like Google is today -- everyone thought they were going to be the big winner in the Internet bonanza) because they offered two crucial Internet technologies, the best browser in existence and (at that time) the best web server (which was not free, as the browser was -- in order to the get people to use the Internet on the theory that people would then want to buy Netscape's web server software). The decision at the end of the 90s to chuck the browser codebase and start over led to the company's demise as an independent entity. It was purchased by AOL, and at this point does not really exist as an AOL division, though AOL has continued to keep a few programmers around to take the Mozilla codebase (which is no longer controlled by and Netscape) and package it into a browser that is branded as being Netscape Navigator. But it's really just a skin running on the Mozilla web browsers (just as Firefox is, though to a lesser extent than Netscape is). Wouldn't it be a good business plan to continue supporting a program based on ancient code while at the same time developing a new program with new code and none of the old problems, designed to replace the older program, and able to open ALL files from the old program, regardless of version? Did you read Joel's article? He gave the answer: if you've got crufty, ugly code that's preventing you from adding new features, you do what's called refactoring. What that means is that you take the original code and don't change any functionality or behavior, but what you do is rewrite it to get rid of all the ugliness. That means revising the way it's organized and how it performs certain operations, but since you're always doing it tiny bit by tiny bit, and not changing any functionality, you always have a codebase that can be used to produce a shipping product. Joel said there's nothing wrong with the refactoring approach. The result of a complete refactoring is that you end up with a codebase that includes all the legacy bits but that is easier to manage. This is what I suggested MakeMusic might very well be doing with Finale in the background. But what Netscape did was start from a clean slate and re-architect the software from the ground up. Consider an analogy: You live in a house that has a stairway that is too narrow, and leans at an angle, but if you're careful, you can climb it easily. The floors in half the rooms lean at an angle, but you've built your furniture so that it sits properly on top of the tilting floors. The problem is that you can't rearrange the furniture the way you'd like because the furniture legs are cut to sit properly only in one orientation to the tilt of the floor. Now, you have two choices: 1. continue living in
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
Eric Dannewitz wrote: I, so far, find Sibelius extremely backwards. Like putting articulations on notes after I enter them. Still can't figure that out. Nor if you decide you want to change an instrument on a score. So far, I've tried to do two trios with Sibelius, but ended up going back to Finale cause it was just not working very well for me That's fine -- in Finale, using Speedy Entry, I've always entered the notes first and then the articulations, so that wasn't a stopper for me. Changing an instrument in the score, while keeping all the music can be done several ways -- from the Mixer window or from the Create - Instrument dialog where you add a new staff, then select all the music in the old instrument staff and then paste it into the new staff then delete the old staff. But it took me three versions of Sibelius before I finally felt comfortable working in it. I wouldn't expect others to keep at it if they don't wish to. If Finale works fine for you and you don't run into the bugs that have amassed in recent versions, then you should keep on working in Finale. I find that when I start Finale2k8 it doesn't feel the same and I don't like the new feel, but when I fire up Fin2k7 or earlier (I've got them all going back to 2004 on my computer still) I feel right at home. And when I start Sib5 (now 5.1) I feel right at home, too. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
You can select the articulation from the keypad at the same time as the rhythm. But I find that awkward unless you just need a few isolated articulations. For me, articulation is most seamlessly applied to entire regions (select any number of measures) rather than note by note. I also stop entering notes from scratch and begin a copy, paste, and edit routine as soon as possible. If you copy a passage that's already articulated, attaching articulations becomes moot. This is another case of Sib and Finale being differently abled. You can get to the same result but the path may be much different and some may prefer Finale's while others prefer Sibelius'. Richard Smith http://rgsmithmusic.com Eric Dannewitz wrote: I, so far, find Sibelius extremely backwards. Like putting articulations on notes after I enter them. Still can't figure that out. Nor if you decide you want to change an instrument on a score. So far, I've tried to do two trios with Sibelius, but ended up going back to Finale cause it was just not working very well for me John Howell wrote: At 10:25 PM +0100 10/30/07, Kurt Gnos wrote: David, John, thanks for the quick and competent answers. Well, apart from the crashes, I get a quite good impression. And I am glad you two are here to answer all my future Sibelius questions. I must say, generally the user interface it quite nice and much more modern than Finale, and the output is flawless, which much less fiddling than in Finale. So I guess I am a candidate to switch, sooner or later... Kurt: David is competent, I'm still very much learning. But you might want to subscribe to the SibList at [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's much like this list, not an official Sibelius list, with the crucial difference that a Senior Product Manager for Sibelius, Daniel Spreadbury, monitors the list and answers questions quickly and honestly. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
At 10:30 PM -0800 10/30/07, Eric Dannewitz wrote: I, so far, find Sibelius extremely backwards. Like putting articulations on notes after I enter them. Still can't figure that out. I'll second everything David Bailey said, but add this. Sibelius gives you choices, and one of those choices is to add articulations as you enter notes. It's done with the keypad, and of course depends on how facile you are using the keypad, but I'm gradually training myself to do it that way so I won't have to go back to add them, and my speed is gradually increasing. You can also reprogram the keypad, according to some users, but that's something I probably won't investigate until I'm comfortable with the default arrangement. Nor if you decide you want to change an instrument on a score. I assume that you mean same staff, change to a different instrument, perhaps change clef or transposition, rather than the scenario David explained. I know it can be done, but not how because I haven't had to learn it yet. All notation is complex. (Don't forget that it was originally developed by monks using feathers!!!) But any program has to deal with those complexities. Some do it better than others, but I don't EVER expect any programmer or team of programmers to come up with exactly the same way of approaching things. So far, I've tried to do two trios with Sibelius, but ended up going back to Finale cause it was just not working very well for me Cool. No problem. I used Mosaic long after it stopped being supported because I was comfortable with it. Now it no longer runs on OS X. I'd probably still be using it if I could, but then I'm Mr. Conservative when it comes to jumping into new programs when I have an older one that does what I need it to do. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
John Howell wrote: All notation is complex. In this case, I think the complete opposite way. The problem as I see it is that all music software of today are using technology from 30-40 years ago. If a music program was developed today, using the technology invented during the last 5-10 years, a music notation program could handle notation in an extremely simple way. And it could also be a creative environment, which can't be said of any music notation product found today... ;-) Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
John Howell wrote: Nor if you decide you want to change an instrument on a score. I assume that you mean same staff, change to a different instrument, perhaps change clef or transposition, rather than the scenario David explained. I know it can be done, but not how because I haven't had to learn it yet. Either way. Seems like you can't do it easily in Sibelius. You have to create a new staff and then copy all the stuff over? You can't just click the staff and change it? Seems non-intuitive to me. All notation is complex. (Don't forget that it was originally developed by monks using feathers!!!) But any program has to deal with those complexities. Some do it better than others, but I don't EVER expect any programmer or team of programmers to come up with exactly the same way of approaching things. Well, ideally, they should have multiple ways of doing it. One path is not always the best path. That is one thing that is great about Finale is that it generally has a number of ways to do what you want it to do. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
Eric Dannewitz wrote: John Howell wrote: Nor if you decide you want to change an instrument on a score. I assume that you mean same staff, change to a different instrument, perhaps change clef or transposition, rather than the scenario David explained. I know it can be done, but not how because I haven't had to learn it yet. Either way. Seems like you can't do it easily in Sibelius. You have to create a new staff and then copy all the stuff over? You can't just click the staff and change it? Seems non-intuitive to me. You don't have to do it that way -- that's just one way you can do it. You can edit the attributes for the existing staff. All notation is complex. (Don't forget that it was originally developed by monks using feathers!!!) But any program has to deal with those complexities. Some do it better than others, but I don't EVER expect any programmer or team of programmers to come up with exactly the same way of approaching things. Well, ideally, they should have multiple ways of doing it. One path is not always the best path. That is one thing that is great about Finale is that it generally has a number of ways to do what you want it to do. The same is true for Sibelius. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
Eric this may be what you want. 1. Right click on a blank part of the page for the context menu. At the bottom of the menu is other. Open that up. 2. Select change instrument 3. Pick an instrument from the list. 4. Click the now blue (=loaded) arrow where you want to change the instrument. You will get a transposition and key and/or clef change as needed as well as a text instruction to the performer to change to the instrument. 5. If you want to change the stave for the entire score, click in the left margin just to the left of the staff. It will change the staff and look as if the new instrument had been the choice fromt he beginning. I think that having multiple ways of doing things has a lot to do with familiarity. I really like Sibelius' step time entry. There are so many ways to enter music that I am constantly changing my approach to fit the particular circumstance. Conversely, I find Finale's Speedy Entry restrictive but many of the workers on this list would certainly disagree. These two are just differently abled and the versatility is good for us all. Richard Smith http://www.rgsmithmusic.com Eric Dannewitz wrote: John Howell wrote: Nor if you decide you want to change an instrument on a score. I assume that you mean same staff, change to a different instrument, perhaps change clef or transposition, rather than the scenario David explained. I know it can be done, but not how because I haven't had to learn it yet. Either way. Seems like you can't do it easily in Sibelius. You have to create a new staff and then copy all the stuff over? You can't just click the staff and change it? Seems non-intuitive to me. All notation is complex. (Don't forget that it was originally developed by monks using feathers!!!) But any program has to deal with those complexities. Some do it better than others, but I don't EVER expect any programmer or team of programmers to come up with exactly the same way of approaching things. Well, ideally, they should have multiple ways of doing it. One path is not always the best path. That is one thing that is great about Finale is that it generally has a number of ways to do what you want it to do. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
Jari, when I read your message, I didn't agree. I doubt whether music notation, a rather complex and not always logical process, can be handled in a simple way. But then I think I have been using Finale for almost 20 years. Even if they were progresses, and big ones, you are right - the core of the program is 20 years old. I remember I did a song book for the church I was working for. Finale 3 had no easy way to do slurs, you had to fine-tune everyone. 3.5 came out and hat automatic slurs - they were much better. So I deleted every slur in about 300 pages and used the new ones... And so on. I have used Finale so long I can do everything I want, but as in, e. g. quark xpress, I do it the hard way. I have learned to use quite exotic work-arounds to get to the goal. And I am tired of it. Postscript (I have bought postscript printers for 20 years because of Finale) worked on and off. After working fine for some years, it has not been working fine for 10 years or so, Coda blaming Windows, but hell, why do other programs like Sibelius work fine? Sibelius is certainly newer, fresher, but it has the same problem as Finale. It has grown over the years, adding features, adding features we need, and certainly adding featers I don't need, but the interface - is not up-to-date. So the best thing is if one of the big music-notation-firms that hopefully have learned of their draw-backs would create a new, easy-to-use notation software that does everything the way we want and also offers the freedom to do everything. What I like more in Sibelius (compared to Finale) after just a few hours is - in Finale, I enter music, and then spend most of my time doing layout things - in Siblius, I don't have to spend so much time doing layout work, because it's looking fine, by default. So if Finale doesn't want to lose more clients, this should be its first priority - we enter the notes and stuff, and Finale does the layout in a satisfying way... We should not need to do both... Fix its old bugs, but better reprogram it from scratch, using new technologies, so finally (!) I agree with you, Jari, we need a new program... Kurt -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Jari Williamsson Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. Oktober 2007 19:45 An: finale@shsu.edu Betreff: Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions John Howell wrote: All notation is complex. In this case, I think the complete opposite way. The problem as I see it is that all music software of today are using technology from 30-40 years ago. If a music program was developed today, using the technology invented during the last 5-10 years, a music notation program could handle notation in an extremely simple way. And it could also be a creative environment, which can't be said of any music notation product found today... ;-) Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
Right clicking does not bring up any context menu that has OTHER in it. I get Cut, Copy, Paste, Delete, Capture Idea, Voice, Hide/Show, Color and Apply Color... However, in the menu, there is Other buried under Create.. Sibelius 5.1...frustrating.. Richard Smith wrote: Eric this may be what you want. 1. Right click on a blank part of the page for the context menu. At the bottom of the menu is other. Open that up. 2. Select change instrument 3. Pick an instrument from the list. 4. Click the now blue (=loaded) arrow where you want to change the instrument. You will get a transposition and key and/or clef change as needed as well as a text instruction to the performer to change to the instrument. 5. If you want to change the stave for the entire score, click in the left margin just to the left of the staff. It will change the staff and look as if the new instrument had been the choice fromt he beginning. I think that having multiple ways of doing things has a lot to do with familiarity. I really like Sibelius' step time entry. There are so many ways to enter music that I am constantly changing my approach to fit the particular circumstance. Conversely, I find Finale's Speedy Entry restrictive but many of the workers on this list would certainly disagree. These two are just differently abled and the versatility is good for us all. Richard Smith http://www.rgsmithmusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
On 1 Nov 2007 at 2:22, Kurt Gnos wrote: Fix its old bugs, but better reprogram it from scratch, using new technologies This is a really terrible suggestion. If you think the bugs in Finale are bad now, wait 'til you see the new programmed-from-scratch Finale. Consider the case of Netscape, which chucked its entire codebase and started from scratch. The result was that for 5 years, there was no new Netscape browser, and the world moved on and Netscape lost its market share. Joel Spolsky explains why it's bad to chuck an existing codebase and start from scratch: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog69.html Quote: Netscape 6.0 is finally going into its first public beta. There never was a version 5.0. The last major release, version 4.0, was released almost three years ago. Three years is an awfully long time in the Internet world. During this time, Netscape sat by, helplessly, as their market share plummeted. It's a bit smarmy of me to criticize them for waiting so long between releases. They didn't do it on purpose, now, did they? Well, yes. They did. They did it by making the single worst strategic mistake that any software company can make: They decided to rewrite the code from scratch. It was originally posted April 6, 2000. And y'all know how many more years it took after that before the Mozilla foundation produced a decent browser. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
It sounds like your cursor was resting on some musical element when you right clicked. You got the menu that opens when you are pointing to a specific element. It's much shorter. To get the longer list of options, you have to point to a blank space on the page. Then there is a context menu with other at the bottom of the list. When you open the other item you will find Instrument change. The same menu is also in the create drop down menu on the menu bar at the top of the page. I just right click because it's more convenient. This menu, either as a context or a drop down from the menu bar, has most of the controls you normally need. You just learn to look there first. Hope that helps. Richard Smith http://www.rgsmithmusic.com Eric Dannewitz wrote: Right clicking does not bring up any context menu that has OTHER in it. I get Cut, Copy, Paste, Delete, Capture Idea, Voice, Hide/Show, Color and Apply Color... However, in the menu, there is Other buried under Create.. Sibelius 5.1...frustrating.. Richard Smith wrote: Eric this may be what you want. 1. Right click on a blank part of the page for the context menu. At the bottom of the menu is other. Open that up. 2. Select change instrument 3. Pick an instrument from the list. 4. Click the now blue (=loaded) arrow where you want to change the instrument. You will get a transposition and key and/or clef change as needed as well as a text instruction to the performer to change to the instrument. 5. If you want to change the stave for the entire score, click in the left margin just to the left of the staff. It will change the staff and look as if the new instrument had been the choice fromt he beginning. I think that having multiple ways of doing things has a lot to do with familiarity. I really like Sibelius' step time entry. There are so many ways to enter music that I am constantly changing my approach to fit the particular circumstance. Conversely, I find Finale's Speedy Entry restrictive but many of the workers on this list would certainly disagree. These two are just differently abled and the versatility is good for us all. Richard Smith http://www.rgsmithmusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
At 11:44 PM +0100 10/29/07, Kurt Gnos wrote: Is there a way to select an entire staff except highlighting the first measure, go to the last page and shift-clicking the last measure? I guess there is... But there is no clicking to the left of the staff as in Finale, so I didn't find out...;-) Yes. Click on a measure and it selects that measure. Double click and it selects that staff on that whole system. Triple click and it selects that staff from beginning to end. This is Sib 4 on Mac. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
David, John, thanks for the quick and competent answers. Well, apart from the crashes, I get a quite good impression. And I am glad you two are here to answer all my future Sibelius questions. I must say, generally the user interface it quite nice and much more modern than Finale, and the output is flawless, which much less fiddling than in Finale. So I guess I am a candidate to switch, sooner or later... Kurt ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
At 10:25 PM +0100 10/30/07, Kurt Gnos wrote: David, John, thanks for the quick and competent answers. Well, apart from the crashes, I get a quite good impression. And I am glad you two are here to answer all my future Sibelius questions. I must say, generally the user interface it quite nice and much more modern than Finale, and the output is flawless, which much less fiddling than in Finale. So I guess I am a candidate to switch, sooner or later... Kurt: David is competent, I'm still very much learning. But you might want to subscribe to the SibList at [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's much like this list, not an official Sibelius list, with the crucial difference that a Senior Product Manager for Sibelius, Daniel Spreadbury, monitors the list and answers questions quickly and honestly. John -- John R. Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
I, so far, find Sibelius extremely backwards. Like putting articulations on notes after I enter them. Still can't figure that out. Nor if you decide you want to change an instrument on a score. So far, I've tried to do two trios with Sibelius, but ended up going back to Finale cause it was just not working very well for me John Howell wrote: At 10:25 PM +0100 10/30/07, Kurt Gnos wrote: David, John, thanks for the quick and competent answers. Well, apart from the crashes, I get a quite good impression. And I am glad you two are here to answer all my future Sibelius questions. I must say, generally the user interface it quite nice and much more modern than Finale, and the output is flawless, which much less fiddling than in Finale. So I guess I am a candidate to switch, sooner or later... Kurt: David is competent, I'm still very much learning. But you might want to subscribe to the SibList at [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's much like this list, not an official Sibelius list, with the crucial difference that a Senior Product Manager for Sibelius, Daniel Spreadbury, monitors the list and answers questions quickly and honestly. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
David, thanks, that did it. Is there a way to select an entire staff except highlighting the first measure, go to the last page and shift-clicking the last measure? I guess there is... But there is no clicking to the left of the staff as in Finale, so I didn't find out...;-) Kurt -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von dhbailey Gesendet: Montag, 29. Oktober 2007 22:27 An: finale@shsu.edu Betreff: Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions Kurt Gnos wrote: Hi, today I gave Sibelius my second try. I entered and arranged a simple melody (S/A in canon) and T/B accompaniment, to check out copying, pasting, lyrics and so on. Many things work quite differently than in Finale, but I got most things working. I could enter notes, copy and paste things, add lyrics. Sibelius crashed once (something about a C-Library), but for the rest of the time worked quite fine. Playback: I had to restart two times because one of my SATB voices would not play back. Restarting fixed it. I now have entered the music and lyrics. I wanted to shift the lyrics a little lower because they are too near to the staff symstem. I've checked all the menus and fiddled around for half an hour but I could not find a way to adjust the verse 1 baseline. I am quite certain there must be a way to do it, but where? I can adjust one syllable no problem, but the whole lyrics line? highlight the entire staff, then under Edit menu select FILTER and then select Lyrics. Then only the lyrics are selected and using up or down arrow (or clicking and dragging) will move all the lyrics. [snip] -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Third impressions
Hi, another one for the Sibelius users... I added a text block on the second page containing additional verses. I wrote 1. - TAB - first verse And aligned everything. Up to the 5th verse. But the text printed as 1. bla bla bla bla bla bla. What I wanted is: 1. bla bla bla Bla bla bla Bla bla bla... I couldn't get this working. Kurt -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Kurt Gnos Gesendet: Montag, 29. Oktober 2007 21:07 An: finale@shsu.edu Betreff: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions Hi, today I gave Sibelius my second try. I entered and arranged a simple melody (S/A in canon) and T/B accompaniment, to check out copying, pasting, lyrics and so on. Many things work quite differently than in Finale, but I got most things working. I could enter notes, copy and paste things, add lyrics. Sibelius crashed once (something about a C-Library), but for the rest of the time worked quite fine. Playback: I had to restart two times because one of my SATB voices would not play back. Restarting fixed it. I now have entered the music and lyrics. I wanted to shift the lyrics a little lower because they are too near to the staff symstem. I've checked all the menus and fiddled around for half an hour but I could not find a way to adjust the verse 1 baseline. I am quite certain there must be a way to do it, but where? I can adjust one syllable no problem, but the whole lyrics line? I also found out Sibelius dreadfully misses Finale's arrow tool. It's a pain to select notes or measures when drop down menus hide it. I found no simple way to enter rests other than break bars into rests and go right with the arrow keys. I might be doing many things wrong, but I wanted to find things out the intuitive way. Some things worked out fine, some things did not. I miss Finale's options to change everything, but hey, I know where to look, after almost twenty years. Wondering if some Sibelius user can solve my lyrics problem. And how can I select one voice other than right-clicking the first bar and than the last bar. It's so easy in Finale... Cheers Kurt -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Kurt Gnos Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Oktober 2007 22:37 An: finale@shsu.edu Betreff: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - First experiences Hi, after all these discussions and Finale seeming to coming to an end, I gave Sibelius 5 a try, at a friend's computer. First impression - nice interface, more modern than finale. Second impression - less control - for example, when I play back, I cannot easily control what Sibelius will show me - it tries to show me what happens - but - I can change the resolution, e. g. 75%, during playback, which is great. What would I do first - I listened to some demo songs - The sound great with the new samples Siblius comes with, and Sibelius certainly does a nice playback. BUT, and this is a big but (no pun intended) - during the first hour Sibelius crashed three times just playing demo songs and videos. Finale hasn't crashed on me for years. I started entering a new piece of music, but I will keep you informed when I've tried a bit more. So there are ups and downs, but if the crashing goes on I'm sure to stay with Finale, even if it seems a bit out-of- fashion... Kurt ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
I tried that and it didn't work. I guess this is only for future entries - I also did not find any apply button or something like this... Kurt -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Jeff Tanner Gesendet: Montag, 29. Oktober 2007 23:09 An: finale@shsu.edu Betreff: Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions You can also just edit the Lyrics Text Style and it will change them all and make it that position as the default. On Oct 29, 2007, at 5:27 PM, dhbailey wrote: Kurt Gnos wrote: Hi, today I gave Sibelius my second try. I entered and arranged a simple melody (S/A in canon) and T/B accompaniment, to check out copying, pasting, lyrics and so on. Many things work quite differently than in Finale, but I got most things working. I could enter notes, copy and paste things, add lyrics. Sibelius crashed once (something about a C-Library), but for the rest of the time worked quite fine. Playback: I had to restart two times because one of my SATB voices would not play back. Restarting fixed it. I now have entered the music and lyrics. I wanted to shift the lyrics a little lower because they are too near to the staff symstem. I've checked all the menus and fiddled around for half an hour but I could not find a way to adjust the verse 1 baseline. I am quite certain there must be a way to do it, but where? I can adjust one syllable no problem, but the whole lyrics line? highlight the entire staff, then under Edit menu select FILTER and then select Lyrics. Then only the lyrics are selected and using up or down arrow (or clicking and dragging) will move all the lyrics. [snip] -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
Kurt Gnos wrote: David, thanks, that did it. Is there a way to select an entire staff except highlighting the first measure, go to the last page and shift-clicking the last measure? I guess there is... But there is no clicking to the left of the staff as in Finale, so I didn't find out...;-) Click selects one measure, double-click selects that staff for that system, triple-click selects that staff for the entire score. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
Kurt Gnos wrote: I tried that and it didn't work. I guess this is only for future entries - I also did not find any apply button or something like this... Just make sure you exit that dialog properly after editing any of the text styles -- be sure to click any/all OK buttons and don't get out of the Edit Lyrics dialog and then click the X to close the Edit Text Styles dialog, be sure to click OK to get out of that dialog. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5
It seems people who write these kinds of topics don't read the rest of the Finale maillist. While I sympathize with switching to Sibelius, I've been doing that for years, I must admit that I find Finale's new features, even if keeping the bugs, worth the upgrade. The new combined arrow/mass mover tool and the more logical menus have already saved me a lot of hours work. The less new linked parts are worth weeks or months. If Finale could make such progresses AND get rid of old bugs, I would stay with it. But new features without bugfixes is not enough to hold me there. And since most of our Finale problems are just not there in Sibelius... (EPS, PDF) I'm a loyal Finale user since 1.8 or so, and I know its ups and downs, and still, enough is enough Kurt -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Randolph Peters Gesendet: Freitag, 5. Oktober 2007 18:35 An: finale@shsu.edu Betreff: Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 ThomaStudios wrote: Well, this was the shove I needed. 50% off and you put it perfectly Bruce: same cost as upgrading to Finale 2008, which I steadfastly refuse to do. So I took the plunge and ordered the competitive upgrade. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the overwhelming consensus is that Finale 2008 has all the problems of 2007 and then some, without any new features that would make the pain more tolerable. (I know there are new features, but do they improve the day to day experience of Finale?) I'll wait until the first bug-fix to reevaluate buying Finale 2008. -Randolph Peters ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5
On Oct 5, 2007, at 8:04 PM, Kurt Gnos wrote: It seems people who write these kinds of topics don't read the rest of the Finale maillist. While I sympathize with switching to Sibelius, I've been doing that for years, I must admit that I find Finale's new features, even if keeping the bugs, worth the upgrade. The new combined arrow/mass mover tool and the more logical menus have already saved me a lot of hours work. The less new linked parts are worth weeks or months. Hmm, they never saved me HOURS of work, since I spent more time looking for stuff than using it... And I miss the old functionality of the Clear button (on Mac) that got rid only of measure entries. Now it clears EVERYTHING, so I have to go to the menu and go through the Clear Selected Items menu manually, which I only had to do in past if I wanted to get rid of a certain class of item. But I am off 2008 now. And I won't be upgrading to 2009 unless some BIG bug fixes are made, including the almost ubiquitous file corruption problem. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
