Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Dean M. Estabrook]

Son of a gun ... I thought John Williams did all his own orchestration. 
Learn something every day.

Dean
On Dec 29, 2004, at 10:56 AM, Christopher Smith wrote:
On Dec 29, 2004, at 3:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I currently live in Los Angeles and make my living as a full time 
musician.  Most of my income comes from being a proofreader, copyist, 
midi transcriptionist and music librarian for feature films and 
television.  But I also compose, arrange, orchestrate and play from 
time to time as well.
This caught my eye. I often get calls from composers on deadlines who 
need me to transcribe and orchestrate from MIDI files. I've been 
arguing with my clients constantly about whether this constitutes 
"orchestration" or not; they claim that since THEY are making the 
decisions as to whether a given line is strings, woods, brass, etc., 
that THEY are the orchestrator and I am the copyist. I never charge 
copyists' rates for this kind of thing (I charge more, way more) but I 
still have a big argument every time, even with the same clients.

Even if we come to an agreement, the quality of the MIDI files I am 
given varies wildly, from beautifully set-up files laid out in score 
order with separated woodwind, brass, percussion and string sections, 
strictly quantised to import nicely into Finale; all the way to 
"noodling" on a couple of different patches that needs to be 
completely arranged pretty much from scratch, assuming that I can 
figure out what is going on, which is not easy in these cases.

I know that composers like Danny Elfman work like this, passing on 
MIDI files in various stages of completeness to an accomplished 
arranger/orchestrator, whereas some others like John Williams hand 
over highly detailed 6-staff sketches, leaving the orchestrator with 
little to do besides prepare the full score and decide section splits 
(and maybe add in some accents and crescendos that JW might have 
missed.) It seems to me that BOTH extremes get credited as 
"orchestrator", but the amount of work and the responsibility assumed 
by the orchestrator is wildly different in the two cases.

How do you charge for this kind of thing, and how do you draw the line 
between copying, orchestration, and arranging? Do you charge an hourly 
rate? How much responsibility do you assume for how the final work 
will sound, which seems to me to be the main point when deciding 
rates? How would the rate vary if suddenly you came across an 
incomplete passage that you had to fill in? I know the unions in LA 
and NYC have well-laid-out charts of rates for this kind of thing, but 
how do they decide WHICH rate (copying, orchestration, arranging) is 
actually applied?

The nature of the biz here in Montreal is such that I often have 
trouble getting myself ON the musicians' contract for my work, so the 
question of letting the union arbitrate is touchy, to say the least.

Can you comment?
Christopher
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Per me, la musica è l'alito della vita e di Dio
Pour moi, la musique est le souffle de la vie et de Dieu.
Für mich ist Musik der Atem des Lebens und des Gottes.
Dean M. Estabrook
Retired Church Musician
Composer, Arranger
Adjudicator
Amateur Golfer
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[dhbailey]

Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
Son of a gun ... I thought John Williams did all his own orchestration. 
Learn something every day.

Dean
[snip]
I bet if you asked him, he would tell you he DOES do his own 
orchestration -- meaning that he specifies which instruments play which 
notes when.  I doubt that he would allow that his simply specifying a C 
major chord in the horns and having his "clerk" voice it would indicate 
that he isn't the one doing the orchestrating.

The degree of orchestration and how that affects who should get the 
actual credit is one that I am sure there isn't much consensus on, with 
the actual composers claiming one thing and the orchestrators claiming 
another.

Somewhere within the past year there was a lengthy (and at times very 
argumentative) thread on arrangement vs. transcription vs. 
orchestration.  I could have sworn it was on this list, but it could 
have been on orchestralist.  At any rate it was very clear that while 
each of us may have our own fairly clear-cut definitions of these terms, 
very few others actually agree with us concerning all of them.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[dhbailey]

Christopher Smith wrote:
[snip]>
How do you charge for this kind of thing, and how do you draw the line 
between copying, orchestration, and arranging? Do you charge an hourly 
rate? How much responsibility do you assume for how the final work will 
sound, which seems to me to be the main point when deciding rates? How 
would the rate vary if suddenly you came across an incomplete passage 
that you had to fill in? I know the unions in LA and NYC have 
well-laid-out charts of rates for this kind of thing, but how do they 
decide WHICH rate (copying, orchestration, arranging) is actually applied?

The nature of the biz here in Montreal is such that I often have trouble 
getting myself ON the musicians' contract for my work, so the question 
of letting the union arbitrate is touchy, to say the least.

Can you comment?
You said that you charge more (much more) for this sort of 
midi-file-to-orchestration work than for other similar work (I assume 
that would mean paper sketch to full orchestration engraved with finale) 
so my question back to you, what does it matter what it is called, as 
long as they are paying your rates?

--
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Brad Beyenhof]

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:20:57 -0500, dhbailey wrote:
[snip]
> The degree of orchestration and how that affects who should get the
> actual credit is one that I am sure there isn't much consensus on, with
> the actual composers claiming one thing and the orchestrators claiming
> another.
> 
> Somewhere within the past year there was a lengthy (and at times very
> argumentative) thread on arrangement vs. transcription vs.
> orchestration.  I could have sworn it was on this list, but it could
> have been on orchestralist.  At any rate it was very clear that while
> each of us may have our own fairly clear-cut definitions of these terms,
> very few others actually agree with us concerning all of them.

Yes, that discussion was here, but since the archives are down for the
moment I can't point it out right now.

-- 
Brad Beyenhof
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com
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RE: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Michael O'Connor]

Actually, I'd love to see one of John Williams' (or maybe Howard Shore's)
sketch scripts. How much orchestrating do they really do? In the case of
John Williams, I think he does quite a bit since he has made a living by
borrowing orchestrations from Romantic and Modern concert music. In the film
biz, I doubt any composer can completely fill out a score with the time
considerations that exist. Moreover, knowing that much of music will be
composed for deleted scenes, it's probably even more of a practical
approach. After the initial takes, I wonder if these composers go back and
re-work some of the orchestrations as well as the core music. That would add
yet another layer of complexity to knowing "who" is the orchestrator.

Mike

*
Michael O'Connor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
Of dhbailey
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:21 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism


Dean M. Estabrook wrote:

> Son of a gun ... I thought John Williams did all his own orchestration.
> Learn something every day.
>
> Dean
>
[snip]

I bet if you asked him, he would tell you he DOES do his own
orchestration -- meaning that he specifies which instruments play which
notes when.  I doubt that he would allow that his simply specifying a C
major chord in the horns and having his "clerk" voice it would indicate
that he isn't the one doing the orchestrating.

The degree of orchestration and how that affects who should get the
actual credit is one that I am sure there isn't much consensus on, with
the actual composers claiming one thing and the orchestrators claiming
another.

Somewhere within the past year there was a lengthy (and at times very
argumentative) thread on arrangement vs. transcription vs.
orchestration.  I could have sworn it was on this list, but it could
have been on orchestralist.  At any rate it was very clear that while
each of us may have our own fairly clear-cut definitions of these terms,
very few others actually agree with us concerning all of them.




--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Brad Beyenhof]

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:23:56 -0500, dhbailey wrote:

> You said that you charge more (much more) for this sort of
> midi-file-to-orchestration work than for other similar work (I assume
> that would mean paper sketch to full orchestration engraved with finale)
> so my question back to you, what does it matter what it is called, as
> long as they are paying your rates?

Yes, but there is also the factor of justifying your rates to the
client. If you can't exactly describe with a billing title why one
type of work is more intensive than another, clients will probably
assume that you're changing rates "on a whim" and demand an
explanation. If a rigid rate schedule with specific jobs entailed
within each type of work is maintained, there be many fewer complaints
about charges.

However, I realize that every job is its own and likely a completely
different rate could be charged for every single bit of work that is
done. However, since that is impractical, I agree with Christopher
that some type of definition must be created for the different styles
and input levels of engraving work. I myself have not run across this
type of issue, but I'd be interested to hear what others have done in
similar situations.

-- 
Brad Beyenhof
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[dhbailey]

Brad Beyenhof wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:23:56 -0500, dhbailey wrote:

You said that you charge more (much more) for this sort of
midi-file-to-orchestration work than for other similar work (I assume
that would mean paper sketch to full orchestration engraved with finale)
so my question back to you, what does it matter what it is called, as
long as they are paying your rates?

Yes, but there is also the factor of justifying your rates to the
client. If you can't exactly describe with a billing title why one
type of work is more intensive than another, clients will probably
assume that you're changing rates "on a whim" and demand an
explanation. If a rigid rate schedule with specific jobs entailed
within each type of work is maintained, there be many fewer complaints
about charges.
However, I realize that every job is its own and likely a completely
different rate could be charged for every single bit of work that is
done. However, since that is impractical, I agree with Christopher
that some type of definition must be created for the different styles
and input levels of engraving work. I myself have not run across this
type of issue, but I'd be interested to hear what others have done in
similar situations.
I would think "transcribing from midi files -- $40/hour [or whatever]" 
would be sufficient.

Have the potential jobs listed as follows, each with its own rate:
Copyist -- no editing, straight copying;
Arranger -- starts with melodic line and chord progression;
Orchestrator -- starts with melodic lines and countermelodies and bass 
lines with chord progressions outlined;
Transcribing from midi files
Transcribing from audio cassette

Each of these jobs ends up with complete score and parts as agreed upon 
in the following section:

[have a checklist of various instrumental and vocal parts that you will 
provide]

I would list it as a separate job with a specific rate (the higher one 
he already said he charges for such work.)


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[A-NO-NE Music]

Dean M. Estabrook / 04.12.29 / 02:32 PM wrote:

>Son of a gun ... I thought John Williams did all his own orchestration. 

I play in a same orchestra with one who used to be a ghost writer of his.
 I don't think I can say the name in public without permission.  I can
tell you the name of the orchestra we are in together.  It's George
Russell and Living Time Orchestra, which is much more respected in Europe
than in US, unfortunately.

Anyway, this guy doesn't talk much about how John Williams does, but once
I heard John just gives a peace of paper with few line ideas and its
directions.  The rest, someone takes over.

-- 

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
 


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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Christopher Smith]

On Dec 29, 2004, at 4:23 PM, dhbailey wrote:
You said that you charge more (much more) for this sort of 
midi-file-to-orchestration work than for other similar work (I assume 
that would mean paper sketch to full orchestration engraved with 
finale) so my question back to you, what does it matter what it is 
called, as long as they are paying your rates?

--
David H. Bailey

That's part of the argument; they claim that I should be charging 
orchestration rate when in fact I am arranging, or charging part 
copying rates when in fact I am orchestrating.

Plus, I have problems figuring out what to charge, since as I said, I 
get widely varying levels of stuff handed to me, with varying levels of 
responsibility on my part, not to mention how to get credited on the 
project.

Christopher
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Dean M. Estabrook]

Very interesting ... I was unaware of the complex relationship between 
composer/arr./orchestrator. Now I'm thinking, did any of the "Great" 
composers farm out their work  to orchestrators, e.g., Beethoven, 
Mozart, etc..?

Dean
On Dec 29, 2004, at 1:20 PM, dhbailey wrote:
Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
Son of a gun ... I thought John Williams did all his own 
orchestration. Learn something every day.
Dean
[snip]
I bet if you asked him, he would tell you he DOES do his own 
orchestration -- meaning that he specifies which instruments play 
which notes when.  I doubt that he would allow that his simply 
specifying a C major chord in the horns and having his "clerk" voice 
it would indicate that he isn't the one doing the orchestrating.

The degree of orchestration and how that affects who should get the 
actual credit is one that I am sure there isn't much consensus on, 
with the actual composers claiming one thing and the orchestrators 
claiming another.

Somewhere within the past year there was a lengthy (and at times very 
argumentative) thread on arrangement vs. transcription vs. 
orchestration.  I could have sworn it was on this list, but it could 
have been on orchestralist.  At any rate it was very clear that while 
each of us may have our own fairly clear-cut definitions of these 
terms, very few others actually agree with us concerning all of them.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Para mí, la música es la respiración de la vida y de Dios.
Per me, la musica è l'alito della vita e di Dio
Pour moi, la musique est le souffle de la vie et de Dieu.
Für mich ist Musik der Atem des Lebens und des Gottes.
Dean M. Estabrook
Retired Church Musician
Composer, Arranger
Adjudicator
Amateur Golfer
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[David W. Fenton]

On 29 Dec 2004 at 16:44, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:

> Very interesting ... I was unaware of the complex relationship between
> composer/arr./orchestrator. Now I'm thinking, did any of the "Great"
> composers farm out their work  to orchestrators, e.g., Beethoven,
> Mozart, etc..?

I'm unaware of any completed works of Mozart in which he did not do 
the orchestration.

His method of writing was quite systematic, and based in Italian 
practice. He wrote first the bass line and the first violin, which, 
in the Italian style, was the top line of his orchestral score. He 
then filled in the orchestration in a second pass.

Of course, sometimes he'd fill in some of the orchestration on the 
first pass, but this was basically the way it was done.

It was so clear that the publisher André printed a score of the 
overture to Don Giovanni that was in two colors of ink, black and 
red, that showed the two layers, with black being the first layer, 
red being the 2nd pass for orchestration.

(it's actually a bit more complicated than that in the original MS, 
in that there seem to have been multiple pens used in the 
orchestration pass, to a lesser degree than in the original skeleton 
score, but it's still pretty clear that the was an initial full pass, 
then additional passes to fill in)

The only case I can think of where Mozart had help (other than the 
complicated situation with the Requiem, which was obviously not his 
usual practice, since he generally didn't compose while dead) was in 
secco recitatives, not all of which he wrote. I believe that most of 
the secco recits in La Clemenza di Tito are not by Mozart, though 
they were, of course, considered by him to be satisfactory enough to 
have been used in performance.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc


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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[dhbailey]

Christopher Smith wrote:
On Dec 29, 2004, at 4:23 PM, dhbailey wrote:
You said that you charge more (much more) for this sort of 
midi-file-to-orchestration work than for other similar work (I assume 
that would mean paper sketch to full orchestration engraved with 
finale) so my question back to you, what does it matter what it is 
called, as long as they are paying your rates?

--
David H. Bailey

That's part of the argument; they claim that I should be charging 
orchestration rate when in fact I am arranging, or charging part copying 
rates when in fact I am orchestrating.

Plus, I have problems figuring out what to charge, since as I said, I 
get widely varying levels of stuff handed to me, with varying levels of 
responsibility on my part, not to mention how to get credited on the 
project.

Then what you need is a separate category called "midi file 
transcription" with its own separate rate.

Or, if they want to pay you only part copying rates, then you should 
simply copy the parts. Leave any arranging or filling in gaps to them. 
Present them with the parts, gaps and all, boring voicings and all. 
Then tell them it will be extra for you to fancy things up if they want 
that.

--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[dhbailey]

Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
Very interesting ... I was unaware of the complex relationship between 
composer/arr./orchestrator. Now I'm thinking, did any of the "Great" 
composers farm out their work  to orchestrators, e.g., Beethoven, 
Mozart, etc..?

Beethoven, Mozart and the other giants of the classical world didn't 
farm out any orchestrations -- they were often very coy about farming 
out copying work, often having different people copy different parts of 
a score, so that nobody except them ever had the entire score in one 
place.  That was to prevent plagiarism and piracy.

--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Mariposa Symphony Orchestra]

Interesting new thread...
 
Though not considered to be one (or two) of the 
'great' ones, there was that very interesting relationship between Liszt and 
Raff; the young Raff was amanuensis to the older man and the whelp claimed (at 
least) he had orchestrated some of Liszt's symphonic poems and the first 
concerto and at worst that he had out-and-out composed them.   He 
apparently was quite an unpleasant braggart, but then -- it's never stopped 
me. 
 
Personally (and yes, I am one:)  I've 
never held much stock in Raff's contribution(s) being as major as he 
claimed.   For one thing, the Liszt works in question are far more 
creative, imaginative and rhapsodically-structured than anything Raff ever 
produced, save the 'Leonore' symphony.    And far richer in their 
use of the orchestra.
 
But then, what do I know?
 
Best, 
 
Les
 
 
Les MarsdenFounding Music Director and 
Conductor, The Mariposa Symphony OrchestraMusic and Mariposa?  
Ah, Paradise!!!
 
http://arts-mariposa.org/symphony.htmlhttp://www.sierratel.com/mcf/nprc/mso.htm

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Dean M. 
  Estabrook 
  To: finale@shsu.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 4:44 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Finale] MIDI 
  transcriptionism
  Very interesting ... I was unaware of the complex relationship 
  between composer/arr./orchestrator. Now I'm thinking, did any of the 
  "Great" composers farm out their work  to orchestrators, e.g., 
  Beethoven, Mozart, etc..?Dean
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Jari Williamsson]

Christopher Smith wrote:
whereas some others like John Williams hand over 
highly detailed 6-staff sketches, leaving the orchestrator with little 
to do besides prepare the full score and decide section splits (and 
maybe add in some accents and crescendos that JW might have missed.) 
I personally think John Williams' orchestrator does more than this. 
There's a big difference in style between the Herbert Spencer 
orchestrations and the stuff following it, specially in the "void" at 
the beginning of the 90s.

Btw, an British composer I know composed the music for a couple of 
Hollywood movies in the 70s. He said that "Hollywood rules" forced a 
composer to have an orchestrator even if that person isn't used (in 
cases where the composer orchestrate him/herself, which my fried did). 
Was it really like that? Or perhaps it still is like that?

Best regards,
Jari Williamsson
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Urs Liska]

Antwort auf Nachricht:
@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
@A@ schrieb am @D@
On 29 Dec 2004 at 16:44, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:

Very interesting ... I was unaware of the complex relationship between
composer/arr./orchestrator. Now I'm thinking, did any of the "Great"
composers farm out their work  to orchestrators, e.g., Beethoven,
Mozart, etc..?

I'm unaware of any completed works of Mozart in which he did not do 
the orchestration.

His method of writing was quite systematic, and based in Italian 
practice. He wrote first the bass line and the first violin, which, 
in the Italian style, was the top line of his orchestral score. He 
then filled in the orchestration in a second pass.

Of course, sometimes he'd fill in some of the orchestration on the 
first pass, but this was basically the way it was done.
The same goes for Schubert, and I assume for any composer of this time 
who is said to compose/write very fast. There are many sketches in score 
form that show this technique and in many completed works it can be 
reconstructed as in the mentioned example of Don Giovanni.
One can assume that a composition was called "completed" after the first 
pass. Orchestration counted as merely "working out" the final form. 
Nevertheless, as far as I know, composers did it generally by themselves.
It is similar on the next level, with articulation and dynamics. 
Schubert generally wrote only a few basic or essential dynamic markings 
in the first pass and filled out the rest later, but with less care.

Later in the 19th century and then to the beginning of the 20th century 
orchestration became more and more essential part of the composition. 
With composers such as Wagner, Mahler, Strauss... the orchestration is 
of such importance for the character of the work that it is unthinkable 
that the composers wouldn't do it by themselves.
And if you go into the second half of the 20th century, for "classical" 
composers such as Nono, Boulez, Lachenmann (to name just a few prominent 
names) "sound" becomes a central category of composition, so you cannot 
really  distinguish between composition and orchestration anymore.

Urs
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[dhbailey]

Jari Williamsson wrote:
Christopher Smith wrote:
whereas some others like John Williams hand over highly detailed 
6-staff sketches, leaving the orchestrator with little to do besides 
prepare the full score and decide section splits (and maybe add in 
some accents and crescendos that JW might have missed.) 

I personally think John Williams' orchestrator does more than this. 
There's a big difference in style between the Herbert Spencer 
orchestrations and the stuff following it, specially in the "void" at 
the beginning of the 90s.

Btw, an British composer I know composed the music for a couple of 
Hollywood movies in the 70s. He said that "Hollywood rules" forced a 
composer to have an orchestrator even if that person isn't used (in 
cases where the composer orchestrate him/herself, which my fried did). 
Was it really like that? Or perhaps it still is like that?


Unions can be very powerful and can force industries to maintain (and 
pay for) jobs which may not be needed in specific instances.

I recall hearing of some such jobs in Broadway pit orchestras, where 
certain individuals were always hired for each show and very often 
didn't have to play a single note, sometimes didn't even have to show up!

--
David H. Bailey
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Eden - Lawrence D.]

If you use this method, be sure to get payment in advance  :-)




On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, dhbailey wrote:

>
> Or, if they want to pay you only part copying rates, then you should
> simply copy the parts. Leave any arranging or filling in gaps to them.
> Present them with the parts, gaps and all, boring voicings and all.
> Then tell them it will be extra for you to fancy things up if they want
> that.
>
> --
> David H. Bailey




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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Christopher Smith]

On Dec 30, 2004, at 6:06 AM, Jari Williamsson wrote:
Christopher Smith wrote:
whereas some others like John Williams hand over highly detailed 
6-staff sketches, leaving the orchestrator with little to do besides 
prepare the full score and decide section splits (and maybe add in 
some accents and crescendos that JW might have missed.)
I personally think John Williams' orchestrator does more than this. 
There's a big difference in style between the Herbert Spencer 
orchestrations and the stuff following it, specially in the "void" at 
the beginning of the 90s.

Btw, an British composer I know composed the music for a couple of 
Hollywood movies in the 70s. He said that "Hollywood rules" forced a 
composer to have an orchestrator even if that person isn't used (in 
cases where the composer orchestrate him/herself, which my fried did). 
Was it really like that? Or perhaps it still is like that?

Best regards,
Jari Williamsson
I based my original comment on a couple of his sketches that I saw 
photocopies of, in his own hand. Perhaps those were the exception 
rather than the rule; I don't know, but they were presented as being 
typical of JW's work (John Williams, not Jari Williamssom!) There were 
cues from Star Wars, Close Encounters, and one of the Indiana Jones 
movies, I think.

Christopher

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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Christopher Smith]

You most certainly have an excellent point. Part of the problem is that 
I get hired because I have a (modest) reputation of always having my 
stuff work out. Sometimes that involves me making adjustments, which 
are not, strictly speaking, part of the orchestrator's job, and 
certainly not the copyist's job! I think part of what I get paid for is 
responsibility. If I have more responsibility, then I should get paid 
more, so a flat hourly fee for what I do does not always do justice to 
the job. Some tasks that take less time are actually worth more, 
because I am drawing on my knowledge and experience. It comes back to 
the same question; how can I charge for this, and explain it to the 
client?

Christopher
On Dec 30, 2004, at 7:49 AM, Eden - Lawrence D. wrote:
If you use this method, be sure to get payment in advance  :-)

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, dhbailey wrote:
Or, if they want to pay you only part copying rates, then you should
simply copy the parts. Leave any arranging or filling in gaps to them.
Present them with the parts, gaps and all, boring voicings and all.
Then tell them it will be extra for you to fancy things up if they 
want
that.

--
David H. Bailey


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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Christopher Smith]

On Dec 29, 2004, at 5:07 PM, dhbailey wrote:

I would think "transcribing from midi files -- $40/hour [or whatever]" 
would be sufficient.

Have the potential jobs listed as follows, each with its own rate:
Copyist -- no editing, straight copying;
Arranger -- starts with melodic line and chord progression;
Orchestrator -- starts with melodic lines and countermelodies and bass 
lines with chord progressions outlined;
Transcribing from midi files
Transcribing from audio cassette

Each of these jobs ends up with complete score and parts as agreed 
upon in the following section:

[have a checklist of various instrumental and vocal parts that you 
will provide]

I would list it as a separate job with a specific rate (the higher one 
he already said he charges for such work.)

I have a bit of a difference of opinion as to what constitutes 
orchestration. In your list above, there doesn't seem to be any 
essential difference between arranging and orchestration. The way I was 
taught, the orchestrator does not add or omit any notes or change any 
voicings, counterlines, melodies, or accompaniment figures. Once one 
starts in on any of that, he is an arranger, not an orchestrator. As I 
mentioned before, the difference is in responsibility. The 
responsibility for the final sound shifts from the composer to the 
arranger.

In most high-end film and show work, this is indeed the way 
orchestration goes, but in the middle-to-low end of things where I am, 
working that way is impossible. I have to figure out what the client 
actually wanted, and create it. (It is not unlike what I do with my 
students, making suggestions to improve things!)

Christopher

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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Raymond Horton]

I had always read that Mozart wrote the bass, first violin, and _second_ 
violin parts out on the first pass.  Is this incorrect?

I only know of film composers getting assistance with orchestration.  In 
interviews, they usually claim that they specify all the necessary 
details in the sketch scores, but, as we all know, important decisions 
need to be made by the guy in the trenches. 

RBH
David W. Fenton wrote:
On 29 Dec 2004 at 16:44, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
 

Very interesting ... I was unaware of the complex relationship between
composer/arr./orchestrator. Now I'm thinking, did any of the "Great"
composers farm out their work  to orchestrators, e.g., Beethoven,
Mozart, etc..?
   

I'm unaware of any completed works of Mozart in which he did not do 
the orchestration.

His method of writing was quite systematic, and based in Italian 
practice. He wrote first the bass line and the first violin, which, 
in the Italian style, was the top line of his orchestral score. He 
then filled in the orchestration in a second pass.

Of course, sometimes he'd fill in some of the orchestration on the 
first pass, but this was basically the way it was done.

It was so clear that the publisher André printed a score of the 
overture to Don Giovanni that was in two colors of ink, black and 
red, that showed the two layers, with black being the first layer, 
red being the 2nd pass for orchestration.

(it's actually a bit more complicated than that in the original MS, 
in that there seem to have been multiple pens used in the 
orchestration pass, to a lesser degree than in the original skeleton 
score, but it's still pretty clear that the was an initial full pass, 
then additional passes to fill in)

The only case I can think of where Mozart had help (other than the 
complicated situation with the Requiem, which was obviously not his 
usual practice, since he generally didn't compose while dead) was in 
secco recitatives, not all of which he wrote. I believe that most of 
the secco recits in La Clemenza di Tito are not by Mozart, though 
they were, of course, considered by him to be satisfactory enough to 
have been used in performance.

 

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RE: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Michael O'Connor]

Concert music composers have, over time, had some assistance in
orchestration and copying. Bach was known to have his students help with
copying parts, but the best example is the "studio" approach that many
19th-century Italian opera composers took. Rossini, for example, composed
only the overture and principal arias for his operas. The arias  for the
lesser roles were often given over to associates to compose. Rossini
understood his audience. They came to see and hear the star singers. When a
supporting character had an aria, the audience members would close the
curtain to their box and enjoy a sorbet or a glass of wine and conversation.
These lesser arias came to be called "sorbet arias". Wagner was appalled at
this practice (and most Italian music in general) and advocated for the
composer to be involved in every aspect of the production. That's another
story though.

Mike


*
Michael O'Connor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
Of Raymond Horton
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 10:04 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism


I had always read that Mozart wrote the bass, first violin, and _second_
violin parts out on the first pass.  Is this incorrect?

I only know of film composers getting assistance with orchestration.  In
interviews, they usually claim that they specify all the necessary
details in the sketch scores, but, as we all know, important decisions
need to be made by the guy in the trenches.

RBH

David W. Fenton wrote:

>On 29 Dec 2004 at 16:44, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
>
>
>
>>Very interesting ... I was unaware of the complex relationship between
>>composer/arr./orchestrator. Now I'm thinking, did any of the "Great"
>>composers farm out their work  to orchestrators, e.g., Beethoven,
>>Mozart, etc..?
>>
>>
>
>I'm unaware of any completed works of Mozart in which he did not do
>the orchestration.
>
>His method of writing was quite systematic, and based in Italian
>practice. He wrote first the bass line and the first violin, which,
>in the Italian style, was the top line of his orchestral score. He
>then filled in the orchestration in a second pass.
>
>Of course, sometimes he'd fill in some of the orchestration on the
>first pass, but this was basically the way it was done.
>
>It was so clear that the publisher André printed a score of the
>overture to Don Giovanni that was in two colors of ink, black and
>red, that showed the two layers, with black being the first layer,
>red being the 2nd pass for orchestration.
>
>(it's actually a bit more complicated than that in the original MS,
>in that there seem to have been multiple pens used in the
>orchestration pass, to a lesser degree than in the original skeleton
>score, but it's still pretty clear that the was an initial full pass,
>then additional passes to fill in)
>
>The only case I can think of where Mozart had help (other than the
>complicated situation with the Requiem, which was obviously not his
>usual practice, since he generally didn't compose while dead) was in
>secco recitatives, not all of which he wrote. I believe that most of
>the secco recits in La Clemenza di Tito are not by Mozart, though
>they were, of course, considered by him to be satisfactory enough to
>have been used in performance.
>
>
>

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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[John Howell]

At 12:06 PM +0100 12/30/04, Jari Williamsson wrote:
Btw, an British composer I know composed the music for a couple of 
Hollywood movies in the 70s. He said that "Hollywood rules" forced a 
composer to have an orchestrator even if that person isn't used (in 
cases where the composer orchestrate him/herself, which my fried 
did). Was it really like that? Or perhaps it still is like that?
I've never heard of that, but then I've not been active in that part 
of the business, either.  Any such rules would be musicians union 
rules, since Hollywood productions are governed by the overlapping 
and sometimes conflicting work rules of all the many different unions 
involved.  (Which is also why more and more "Hollywood" movies are 
being shot in places like Canada and New Zealand and Eastern Europe, 
where they can get away from the strict (and expensive!) union 
rules.)  Stephen Spielberg is shooting at least part of "War of the 
Worlds" just a few miles from here in Virginia, which just happens to 
be a right-to-work state with weak unions.

John
--
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Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Randolph Peters]

At 11:50 AM -0500 12/30/04, John Howell wrote:
I've never heard of that, but then I've not been active in that part 
of the business, either.  Any such rules would be musicians union 
rules, since Hollywood productions are governed by the overlapping 
and sometimes conflicting work rules of all the many different 
unions involved.  (Which is also why more and more "Hollywood" 
movies are being shot in places like Canada and New Zealand and 
Eastern Europe, where they can get away from the strict (and 
expensive!) union rules.)  Stephen Spielberg is shooting at least 
part of "War of the Worlds" just a few miles from here in Virginia, 
which just happens to be a right-to-work state with weak unions.

John
Hollywood productions don't come to Canada to escape the union rules. 
We have unions here too. They shoot here because of tax credits and 
what used to be a favorable exchange rate. And by the way, 
post-production (such as music scoring) almost never comes with deal. 
That is usually done back where the producers or director are based.

-Randolph Peters
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[John Howell]

At 11:10 AM -0600 12/30/04, Randolph Peters wrote:
At 11:50 AM -0500 12/30/04, John Howell wrote:
I've never heard of that, but then I've not been active in that 
part of the business, either.  Any such rules would be musicians 
union rules, since Hollywood productions are governed by the 
overlapping and sometimes conflicting work rules of all the many 
different unions involved.  (Which is also why more and more 
"Hollywood" movies are being shot in places like Canada and New 
Zealand and Eastern Europe, where they can get away from the strict 
(and expensive!) union rules.)  Stephen Spielberg is shooting at 
least part of "War of the Worlds" just a few miles from here in 
Virginia, which just happens to be a right-to-work state with weak 
unions.

John
Hollywood productions don't come to Canada to escape the union 
rules. We have unions here too. They shoot here because of tax 
credits and what used to be a favorable exchange rate. And by the 
way, post-production (such as music scoring) almost never comes with 
deal. That is usually done back where the producers or director are 
based.

-Randolph Peters
OK, I oversimplified.  Hollywood movies are being shot away from 
Hollywood because it is less expensive to do so.  One source of such 
expenses is union work rules that pad the payrole.  But the same 
skills and knowledge are going to be needed no matter where on earth 
you are, and people with desireable skills and knowledge are likely 
to form unions to protect themselves from exploitation wherever they 
happen to be.

Now an interesting question that hadn't occurred to me before is 
this:  When producers shoot on location, do they take the skilled 
people with them from Hollywood, or do they somehow find them 
locally?  And if they take them from Hollywood, wouldn't they still 
have to abide by the same union work rules?

Of course I'm thinking mainly about "crafts" specialists:  cameramen, 
makeup artists, wardrobe people, caterers, motor pool drivers and 
mechanics, electricians, audio people, stagehands, grips and "best 
boys."  When it comes to scoring and recording, it's going to be done 
where the balance between convenience and cost ends up.  If a 
director tends to change his mind and require rescoring fairly 
regularly, I'm sure they'll pay more for convenience.  If a composer 
can work directly with a final cut and the director trusts him, 
they'll probably go for lower cost.

John
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Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
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RE: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Michael O'Connor]

John,

In the one case that I know anything at all about, the Lord of the Rings
trilogy used a large number of New Zealand tech folks as well as extras,
(and some credited actors). The rest were UK people, so I don't know if
American work rules had anything to do with the entire project. of course
most studios are international companies now ...

Mike

*
Michael O'Connor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
Of John Howell
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 12:51 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism


At 11:10 AM -0600 12/30/04, Randolph Peters wrote:
>At 11:50 AM -0500 12/30/04, John Howell wrote:
>>
>>I've never heard of that, but then I've not been active in that
>>part of the business, either.  Any such rules would be musicians
>>union rules, since Hollywood productions are governed by the
>>overlapping and sometimes conflicting work rules of all the many
>>different unions involved.  (Which is also why more and more
>>"Hollywood" movies are being shot in places like Canada and New
>>Zealand and Eastern Europe, where they can get away from the strict
>>(and expensive!) union rules.)  Stephen Spielberg is shooting at
>>least part of "War of the Worlds" just a few miles from here in
>>Virginia, which just happens to be a right-to-work state with weak
>>unions.
>>
>>John
>
>Hollywood productions don't come to Canada to escape the union
>rules. We have unions here too. They shoot here because of tax
>credits and what used to be a favorable exchange rate. And by the
>way, post-production (such as music scoring) almost never comes with
>deal. That is usually done back where the producers or director are
>based.
>
>-Randolph Peters

OK, I oversimplified.  Hollywood movies are being shot away from
Hollywood because it is less expensive to do so.  One source of such
expenses is union work rules that pad the payrole.  But the same
skills and knowledge are going to be needed no matter where on earth
you are, and people with desireable skills and knowledge are likely
to form unions to protect themselves from exploitation wherever they
happen to be.

Now an interesting question that hadn't occurred to me before is
this:  When producers shoot on location, do they take the skilled
people with them from Hollywood, or do they somehow find them
locally?  And if they take them from Hollywood, wouldn't they still
have to abide by the same union work rules?

Of course I'm thinking mainly about "crafts" specialists:  cameramen,
makeup artists, wardrobe people, caterers, motor pool drivers and
mechanics, electricians, audio people, stagehands, grips and "best
boys."  When it comes to scoring and recording, it's going to be done
where the balance between convenience and cost ends up.  If a
director tends to change his mind and require rescoring fairly
regularly, I'm sure they'll pay more for convenience.  If a composer
can work directly with a final cut and the director trusts him,
they'll probably go for lower cost.

John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[David W. Fenton]

On 30 Dec 2004 at 10:03, Raymond Horton wrote:

> I had always read that Mozart wrote the bass, first violin, and
> _second_ violin parts out on the first pass.  Is this incorrect?

Yes, it's incorrect, so far as my experience with Mozart's autographs 
goes. I can't recall a single example of 2nd being written out in the 
first layer, except occasionally for nice details he might have 
thought of while making the first pass. And that also happens in the 
inner parts, too.

Of course, in passages where 1st violin is not playing, another part 
gets put in during the first pass, depending on what it might be in 
the context, and what part has the "lead" voice. The same can be said 
for the bass line -- it's not 100% the contrabass/cello part, but 
whichever part has the bass line.

And, of course, some autographs show evidence of substantial 
composition during the writing process (as opposed to simply writing 
down what's already planned out). The most famous examples are the 
Haydn quartets, which were clearly *not* written out in Mozart's 
typical method.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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RE: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[David W. Fenton]

On 30 Dec 2004 at 13:05, Michael O'Connor wrote:

> In the one case that I know anything at all about, the Lord of the
> Rings trilogy used a large number of New Zealand tech folks as well as
> extras, (and some credited actors). The rest were UK people, so I
> don't know if American work rules had anything to do with the entire
> project. of course most studios are international companies now ...

Having just gone through the extended editions of all three movies 
and all the documentaries that come with them (11 hours of movies, 
15+ hours of documentaries), the New Zealand connection was much 
greater than you are suggesting.

So far as I can tell, *all* extras were Kiwis, as well as all the 
production crew with the exception of the management-level roles. All 
post-production was done in New Zealand with the exception of music 
recording, which was done in London because it was done by the London 
Philharmonic (easier to go to the orchestra than to bring the 
orchestra to NZ).

The remarkable thing about the whole endeavor was that Peter Jackson 
(the director) basically created the whole production mechansim from 
scratch, for the purpose of making his films. He built a new sound 
facility literally from the ground up for the purpose of mixing his 
films (the last two were done there). Weta Workshop basically ramped 
up its staff to whatever level was needed to support the film, and 
brought in whatever expertise was necessary to get the job done (as 
well as innovating on their own in a number of areas). Even the 
digital FX were "home-grown," with Weta Digital doing almost all of 
it (New Line, the distributors of the films, was not confident that 
Weta could successfully animate Gollum, and had to be convinced 
before signing off on turning over the wholesale creation of an 
entire critical character to the digital animators).

At the end Jackson remarks in one of the documentaries that the three 
films were basically made by amateurs.

There was, in fact, very little Hollywood involvement in the 
production. The cast was the most "Hollywood" part of the entire 
endeavor, and even that was heavily UK-based.

And, no, my eyes didn't fall out after watching all of this. I did 
this in the evenings over the holidays, and was riveted. I first 
rewatched the original versions of all three films. I then watched 
the extended versions with commentary from the director and writers. 
After each, I watched the 5+ hours of documentaries associated with 
that film before going on to the commentary for the next film. Last 
of all, I watched all three extended editions in succession (though I 
basically watched half a movie each night, as by this time, I was 
pretty worn out).

It's a pretty amazing accomplishment, over all, comparable, in my 
opinion, to Wagner's mounting of his Ring Cycle the first time at 
Bayreuth.

I think, though, that I'm going to wait a while before listening to 
the other commentaries!

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Bruce Petherick]

Mariposa Symphony Orchestra wrote:
Interesting new thread...
 
Personally (and yes, I am one:)  I've never held much stock in Raff's 
contribution(s) being as major as he claimed.   For one thing, the 
Liszt works in question are far more creative, imaginative and 
rhapsodically-structured than anything Raff ever produced, save the 
'Leonore' symphony.And far richer in their use of the orchestra.
 
and then there is the case of Charles Koechlin. Koechlin is known to 
have orchestrated some of Faure's music under Faure's supervision (I 
think the most well known is the _Pellease suite_). He also _definitely_ 
orchestrated Debussy's _Khamma_ (He also may have composed some of that) 
and _may have_ something to do with _Nuages_. There are many more 
examples for Koechlin of less-well know composers.

And to add to the John Williams thing: Having worked in/for Hollywood 
composers for a while, I can tell you that Williams main way of 
composing is to write a melody line and then use letters to tell the 
arrangers/copyists what and how to fill in. I thought that this was 
rather well known, but it may just be the circle of people I used to 
work with :-) You can verify this by listening! Almost all of his scores 
do sound the same. A very important point to make is that the 
orchestrations are his own, in that he did come up with the original 
sounds in the first place - he just uses the letter system to save time.

Bruce Petherick
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[John Bell]

On Dec 31, 2004, at 01:19, Bruce Petherick wrote (of John Williams):
Almost all of his scores do sound the same
I know what you mean, but did you intend this to sound quite so 
disparaging?

John
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Bruce Petherick]

John Bell wrote:
On Dec 31, 2004, at 01:19, Bruce Petherick wrote (of John Williams):
Almost all of his scores do sound the same

I know what you mean, but did you intend this to sound quite so 
disparaging?

ummm... in the same way that Mozart and Beethoven sound the same. 
William's music is important to a lot of producers because of this 
similar sound - it is a bankable, knowable sound.

Bruce Petherick
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[John Bell]

On Dec 31, 2004, at 01:41, Bruce Petherick wrote:
John Bell wrote:
On Dec 31, 2004, at 01:19, Bruce Petherick wrote (of John Williams):
Almost all of his scores do sound the same

I know what you mean, but did you intend this to sound quite so 
disparaging?

ummm... in the same way that Mozart and Beethoven sound the same. 
William's music is important to a lot of producers because of this 
similar sound - it is a bankable, knowable sound.

Well, I suppose I understand what you mean. All of Mozart's 
compositions are clearly the work of the same inspired creator, however 
much they differ. The works of Andrew Lloyd-Webber, on the other other 
hand, ARE all the same.

John
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[laloba2]

Hi Christopher,
Sorry for the delayI have been travelling and I wanted to be able 
to spend a bit of time on my reply to you!

This caught my eye. I often get calls from composers on deadlines 
who need me to transcribe and orchestrate from MIDI files. I've been 
arguing with my clients constantly about whether this constitutes 
"orchestration" or not; they claim that since THEY are making the 
decisions as to whether a given line is strings, woods, brass, etc., 
that THEY are the orchestrator and I am the copyist. I never charge 
copyists' rates for this kind of thing (I charge more, way more) but 
I still have a big argument every time, even with the same clients.
In my opinion, you are right.  This is midi transcription and 
orchestration.  Both are separate services with different ways of 
being billed.  This is not copying in my opinion.  And you should be 
charging differently for each as you are now.  If the composer is 
also claiming to be the orchestrator, he/she should be handing you a 
complete file or paper score (with dynamics, articulations etc. etc.) 
that can extracted from or copied without any additional work.

Even if we come to an agreement, the quality of the MIDI files I am 
given varies wildly, from beautifully set-up files laid out in score 
order with separated woodwind, brass, percussion and string 
sections, strictly quantised to import nicely into Finale; all the 
way to "noodling" on a couple of different patches that needs to be 
completely arranged pretty much from scratch, assuming that I can 
figure out what is going on, which is not easy in these cases.
Here in L.A. this (midi transcription) is usually charged for by the 
hour.  Charging a time rate may also help to solve your problem 
because high quality midi files will take you less time to straighten 
out than sloppy ones.  So your bill will be reflective of that and 
those clients that are more thorough and neat will have a less 
expensive bill...as it should be in my opinion.  If you are looking 
for what to charge for different things exactly, the unions are a 
good place to start.  You mentioned the rate sheets for New York and 
Los Angeles.  You can can check out the Music Prep Rates for 
reference and can download them in PDF format from some of the union 
web sites.  I use the base orchestration hourly rate for midi 
transcription.

Contrary to what might be said by some, I believe one can follow 
union guidelines for what to charge without being abusive or 
overcharging.  If you are good at what you do, if you are 
conscientious and if you can be trusted to deliver a viable accurate 
product, people will pay you a for your services.

I consider midi transcription to be any or all of these things:
--Deleting redundant and/or empty tracks from a midi file
--Quantizing each remaining track within my sequencer so that it will 
come into Finale nicely after export.
--Exporting cleaned up and quantized midi file and then importing it 
into Finale.
--Taking down any other loop or sample information that is part of 
the piece but may not be fullyindicated as notes in the file (I 
ask the composer to provide an audio file along with the midi file to 
make sure my work is accurate and has everything included.)
--Setting up a completed sketch from the imported file in Finale 
which is an accurate representation of what is going on in the midi 
file complete with brief indications of where horns are muted, 
stopped etc. and strings are pizz, arco etc. and what notes are in 
harp glisses for example.  Also if articulations are part of a patch 
name, I'll include a note about that in my sketch (i.e. stacc. horns) 
This final sketch should be similar to what a composer might normally 
hand his/her orchestrator.

At this point, I have had one of two things happen in my experience. 
One, I give this completed sketch to an orchestrator who then does 
their thing with it and gives it back to me completed to copy (I have 
gotten both computer scores and hand written scores back from 
orchestrators) or two, I become the orchestrator.

In this way of working, I consider adding dynamics, hairpins and 
filling in more complete articulations etc. as part of the 
orchestration process rather than part of the midi transcription 
process but there are some who might argue this.  If I am doing 
orchestration, during the orchestration process, I am again listening 
to the audio file provided by the composer if there is one for 
reference.  So I prefer to do the dynamics etc. by ear rather than by 
looking at midi information.  It seems more musical to me that way. 
Again, that is just me.

Traditionally, orchestration is charged by the 4 bar score page here 
in LA.  Page rates charged vary from orchestrator to orchestrator 
depending on how well established they are.

So when I think about what the difference between Midi Transcription 
and Orchestration is, I'd say Midi Transcription is the doing 
whatever it takes to create a comp

Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[David Woodcock]

- Original Message - 
From: "David W. Fenton"

So far as I can tell, *all* extras were Kiwis, as well as all the
production crew with the exception of the management-level roles. All
post-production was done in New Zealand with the exception of music
recording, which was done in London because it was done by the London
Philharmonic (easier to go to the orchestra than to bring the
orchestra to NZ).
Just as a matter of interest, some of the music for the Fellowship of the 
Rings was done in Wellington, New Zealand with the New Zealand Symphony 
Orchestra. The Mines of Moria sequence and the end part of the movie was 
needed for a thirty minute showing at the Cannes Film Festival and as the 
film was very much still in production at the time it was decided to record 
the music in Wellington to make things easier, and no doubt a lot cheaper. 
The rest of the movie is the LPO as is the rest of the Trilogy. I was 
fortunate to be doing music preparation on those sessions in the Wellington 
Town Hall.

David Woodcock
Auckland, New Zealand

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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Urs Liska]

And, of course, some autographs show evidence of substantial 
composition during the writing process (as opposed to simply writing 
down what's already planned out). The most famous examples are the 
Haydn quartets, which were clearly *not* written out in Mozart's 
typical method.

For those who can read German: The Book "Mozarts Schaffensweise" 
(Mozratr's working methods) by Ulrich Konrad covers this topic in 
detail. In the first part of the book he also explores the historical 
development of the idea/legend of Mozart inventing everything in his 
head and then just "copying" onto paper.

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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Christopher Smith]

On Dec 30, 2004, at 8:19 PM, Bruce Petherick wrote:
And to add to the John Williams thing: Having worked in/for Hollywood 
composers for a while, I can tell you that Williams main way of 
composing is to write a melody line and then use letters to tell the 
arrangers/copyists what and how to fill in. I thought that this was 
rather well known, but it may just be the circle of people I used to 
work with :-) You can verify this by listening! Almost all of his 
scores do sound the same. A very important point to make is that the 
orchestrations are his own, in that he did come up with the original 
sounds in the first place
Not Holst, Shostakovich, Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, et al? A master's 
musicology student I went to school with put together a series of 
needle drops from famous composers' works that very closely mimicked 
the Star Wars main title. He played us the tape of Star Wars, then his 
tape of collected excerpts, and we all laughed at how close it was. 
I've composed style exercises, too, and I know that it is still 
composing, even if it is somewhat derivative. EVERYTHING is derivative 
in some way, and I never held that against anyone.

Yet, and I'm sorry to say it this way, but commissioning work in a 
certain style does NOT make you the originator; the person who DOES the 
work is the originator. As much respect as I have for JW, this info 
diminishes him in my eyes. It pretty much reduces him to the role of a 
music editor who can write a melody.

This reminds me of a certain jazz singer I worked for who asked me to 
write her an arrangement of a certain tune "in the style of Kenny 
Wheeler, you know – with all those cool colours and voicings." She gave 
me the key and nothing else; I looked up the tune and did everything 
else, and did not a bad job either, I think, as I am quite a fan of 
Kenny's and have checked out a lot of his scores and recordings. Then 
she demanded to be credited as arranger on the parts for the musicians! 
I think she thought this would increase her reputation in the eyes of 
her musicians, plus she would be able to write "Arrangements by Jane 
Blow" on her album and have the sheet music back her up. I refused 
point blank. I DID write her name under the title on each part, to show 
that these arrangements were part of her "book", but that wasn't what 
she wanted; she wanted to co-opt the work I had done and call it hers – 
for me to be her "ghost writer." I see no difference between that and 
JW, if indeed this is his usual work method.

I wonder then if the photocopied sketches I saw, purportedly in his 
hand, were actually the work of one of his assistants?

Or perhaps he sketches himself for the important cues?
Christopher
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

At 09:24 AM 12/31/04 -0500, Christopher Smith wrote:
A master's 
>musicology student I went to school with put together a series of 
>needle drops from famous composers' works that very closely mimicked 
>the Star Wars main title.

Check out "The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex" from the late 1930s.
Listen to that film overture by Korngold, and you're hearing the fanfare,
melody, harmony, phrasing, orchestration, and structure of the "Star Wars"
overture. I heard it about the time "Star Wars" came out, and knew that
Williams must have cribbed it. I played the "Elizabeth and Essex" music for
my kids back in my elementary teaching days, and they all cheered because I
was playing "Star Wars". It seems to me he cribbed an awful lot of his
material from others, or at best assembled & re-assembled others' building
blocks. He did orchestrate for the big names in his early days, isn't that
right?

As to the transcription topic, I charge MIDI transcription by the hour
after having been burned by quoting a piece-price for a little 4-minute
band march. It turned out the quantization was all screwed up and the
'orchestration' was jumbled lines and scraps patched into place as needed.
Some instruments were used in only one measure.

Dennis


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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Christopher Smith]

On Dec 31, 2004, at 1:13 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Christopher,
Sorry for the delayI have been travelling and I wanted to be able 
to spend a bit of time on my reply to you!

And a wonderful reply it is, too! So detailed, and it answers a lot of 
my questions about current practice and how to bill for it.


Contrary to what might be said by some, I believe one can follow union 
guidelines for what to charge without being abusive or overcharging.  
If you are good at what you do, if you are conscientious and if you 
can be trusted to deliver a viable accurate product, people will pay 
you a for your services.

That is very well-said, and indeed it is a big part of the subtext in 
all these arguments I have with clients. I suppose convincing the 
client is one of the sales jobs I have to do.


I consider midi transcription to be any or all of these things:
--Deleting redundant and/or empty tracks from a midi file
--Quantizing each remaining track within my sequencer so that it will 
come into Finale nicely after export.
--Exporting cleaned up and quantized midi file and then importing it 
into Finale.
--Taking down any other loop or sample information that is part of the 
piece but may not be fullyindicated as notes in the file (I ask 
the composer to provide an audio file along with the midi file to make 
sure my work is accurate and has everything included.)
--Setting up a completed sketch from the imported file in Finale which 
is an accurate representation of what is going on in the midi file 
complete with brief indications of where horns are muted, stopped etc. 
and strings are pizz, arco etc. and what notes are in harp glisses for 
example.  Also if articulations are part of a patch name, I'll include 
a note about that in my sketch (i.e. stacc. horns) This final sketch 
should be similar to what a composer might normally hand his/her 
orchestrator.
Your work method is good to see. I wonder, though, whether the usual 
six-staff sketch is viable in Finale, as there are so many fussy 
details that are easy to sketch in by hand with a pencil that are a 
pain (or more to the point, not time-effective) to do in Finale. What I 
am thinking of here are things like multiple sets of stems on one 
staff, instruments that only play a few notes like harp and percussion, 
or very dense passages with overlapping parts. Does your sketch vary in 
numbers of staves, and do you keep dissimilar parts always on different 
staves? Do you mix Finale and pencil on the same sketch? How do you 
deal with synth effects? I usually am asked to leave them out of the 
score, but I always feel that the conductor should know that there is a 
missing element, and the orchestrator DEFINITELY needs to know (which 
is usually me in my jobs!)


So when I think about what the difference between Midi Transcription 
and Orchestration is, I'd say Midi Transcription is the doing whatever 
it takes to create a complete sketch from a midi file. From there, 
orchestration can be looked at in the same way that it always has been 
traditionally when receiving a sketch from a composer.

That is very clear. Thank you.

You are right here both are credited as orchestrator.  And, yes, 
John Williams' sketches are very detailed already.
Hmm, there seems to be some difference of opinion on that point. Bruce 
has weighed in recently with info to the contrary...


To me, composing and orchestrating are one in the same from a creative 
standpoint.  But there isn't enough time in the day to write out 
everything every time given the amount of music in a film, the fact 
that A list composers sometimes have more than one film going at a 
time, and the time constraints of deadlines.  Hence the need for midi 
transcriptionists and/or orchestrators.
Nor would I begrudge a busy composer the help he needs (I've had to 
subcontract at times myself.) I just believe in calling the work by the 
correct name, so everyone is clear on who did what exactly.



.and arranging?
In my mind, arranging is more about a chart for a pop/show tune or a 
jazz composition.  I charge a flat rate for the whole arrangement if I 
am writing the arrangement.  Fees will vary based on instrumentation 
and how long the chart is and of course, again, how well established 
the arranger is.  Copying is a separate charge. Any 
takedown/transcription that is necessary as part of this processes is 
also charged separately.  Takedowns in this situation would be charged 
at an hourly rate.  Copying at the usual page rate. Again, I would 
again follow Brad's suggestion here...be very specific about what you 
are charging for and break it out for the client.

Of course, there are gray areas here too.  When dealing with Film and 
Television, even "Tunes" are often treated as orchestrations rather 
than arrangements depending on their context and whether or not they 
are falling under the category of underscore (including source music)
Could you elaborate here? What do you mean by

RE: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Michael O'Connor]

Yes, you are absolutely right. My wife has been addicted to the extended
version documentaries for 3 years now. I've only had the opportunity to
watch some of them, but I got the impression that most of the work was
Kiwi-made. Your more in-depth scrutiny supports that impression completely.
In the case of LOTR, it appears that cost savings were not the primary
reason for off-shoring the work. Jackson had New Zealand in mind for the
Middle Earth set for years. It turned out that quality and convenience
merged in a truly serendipitous way for this work. I had my quibbles with
their decisions on changes, but I understood their reasonings. The elves
still were a bit too dour for my taste, but I loved Shore's musical score.
The new super duper edition has an extra DVD that deals with the musical
score, btw. You also get a Minas Tirath paper weight!

Happy New Year everyone!

Mike

*
Michael O'Connor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
Of David W. Fenton
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 5:47 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: RE: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism


On 30 Dec 2004 at 13:05, Michael O'Connor wrote:

> In the one case that I know anything at all about, the Lord of the
> Rings trilogy used a large number of New Zealand tech folks as well as
> extras, (and some credited actors). The rest were UK people, so I
> don't know if American work rules had anything to do with the entire
> project. of course most studios are international companies now ...

Having just gone through the extended editions of all three movies
and all the documentaries that come with them (11 hours of movies,
15+ hours of documentaries), the New Zealand connection was much
greater than you are suggesting.

So far as I can tell, *all* extras were Kiwis, as well as all the
production crew with the exception of the management-level roles. All
post-production was done in New Zealand with the exception of music
recording, which was done in London because it was done by the London
Philharmonic (easier to go to the orchestra than to bring the
orchestra to NZ).

The remarkable thing about the whole endeavor was that Peter Jackson
(the director) basically created the whole production mechansim from
scratch, for the purpose of making his films. He built a new sound
facility literally from the ground up for the purpose of mixing his
films (the last two were done there). Weta Workshop basically ramped
up its staff to whatever level was needed to support the film, and
brought in whatever expertise was necessary to get the job done (as
well as innovating on their own in a number of areas). Even the
digital FX were "home-grown," with Weta Digital doing almost all of
it (New Line, the distributors of the films, was not confident that
Weta could successfully animate Gollum, and had to be convinced
before signing off on turning over the wholesale creation of an
entire critical character to the digital animators).

At the end Jackson remarks in one of the documentaries that the three
films were basically made by amateurs.

There was, in fact, very little Hollywood involvement in the
production. The cast was the most "Hollywood" part of the entire
endeavor, and even that was heavily UK-based.

And, no, my eyes didn't fall out after watching all of this. I did
this in the evenings over the holidays, and was riveted. I first
rewatched the original versions of all three films. I then watched
the extended versions with commentary from the director and writers.
After each, I watched the 5+ hours of documentaries associated with
that film before going on to the commentary for the next film. Last
of all, I watched all three extended editions in succession (though I
basically watched half a movie each night, as by this time, I was
pretty worn out).

It's a pretty amazing accomplishment, over all, comparable, in my
opinion, to Wagner's mounting of his Ring Cycle the first time at
Bayreuth.

I think, though, that I'm going to wait a while before listening to
the other commentaries!

--
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Dean M. Estabrook]

Thank you ... very interesting.
Dean
On Dec 29, 2004, at 5:37 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 29 Dec 2004 at 16:44, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
Very interesting ... I was unaware of the complex relationship between
composer/arr./orchestrator. Now I'm thinking, did any of the "Great"
composers farm out their work  to orchestrators, e.g., Beethoven,
Mozart, etc..?
I'm unaware of any completed works of Mozart in which he did not do
the orchestration.
His method of writing was quite systematic, and based in Italian
practice. He wrote first the bass line and the first violin, which,
in the Italian style, was the top line of his orchestral score. He
then filled in the orchestration in a second pass.
Of course, sometimes he'd fill in some of the orchestration on the
first pass, but this was basically the way it was done.
It was so clear that the publisher André printed a score of the
overture to Don Giovanni that was in two colors of ink, black and
red, that showed the two layers, with black being the first layer,
red being the 2nd pass for orchestration.
(it's actually a bit more complicated than that in the original MS,
in that there seem to have been multiple pens used in the
orchestration pass, to a lesser degree than in the original skeleton
score, but it's still pretty clear that the was an initial full pass,
then additional passes to fill in)
The only case I can think of where Mozart had help (other than the
complicated situation with the Requiem, which was obviously not his
usual practice, since he generally didn't compose while dead) was in
secco recitatives, not all of which he wrote. I believe that most of
the secco recits in La Clemenza di Tito are not by Mozart, though
they were, of course, considered by him to be satisfactory enough to
have been used in performance.
--
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc
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Para mí, la música es la respiración de la vida y de Dios.
Per me, la musica è l'alito della vita e di Dio
Pour moi, la musique est le souffle de la vie et de Dieu.
Für mich ist Musik der Atem des Lebens und des Gottes.
Dean M. Estabrook
Retired Church Musician
Composer, Arranger
Adjudicator
Amateur Golfer
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[David W. Fenton]

On 31 Dec 2004 at 20:39, David Woodcock wrote:

> - Original Message - 
> From: "David W. Fenton"
> 
> So far as I can tell, *all* extras were Kiwis, as well as all the >
> production crew with the exception of the management-level roles. All
> > post-production was done in New Zealand with the exception of music
> > recording, which was done in London because it was done by the
> London > Philharmonic (easier to go to the orchestra than to bring the
> > orchestra to NZ).
> 
> Just as a matter of interest, some of the music for the Fellowship of
> the Rings was done in Wellington, New Zealand with the New Zealand
> Symphony Orchestra. The Mines of Moria sequence and the end part of
> the movie was needed for a thirty minute showing at the Cannes Film
> Festival and as the film was very much still in production at the time
> it was decided to record the music in Wellington to make things
> easier, and no doubt a lot cheaper. The rest of the movie is the LPO
> as is the rest of the Trilogy. I was fortunate to be doing music
> preparation on those sessions in the Wellington Town Hall.

I'm surprised that little bit of "home-town pride" didn't make it 
onto the commentaries somewhere! Or maybe I just missed it.

Of course, I haven't listened to *all* the commentaries yet, most 
notably, the post-production commentary with Howard Shore. I have 
listened to that for the first half of Fellowship, so I'll listen 
closely when I get to Moria for that. But so far, Shore's comments 
have all been basically "leitmotiv naming," not extra-musical 
observations. And I must also observe that they haven't been terribly 
illuminating to *me* -- he seems to name the incredibly obvious 
themes or extremely obscure themes, and ignore the ones in between, 
the ones that are kind of prominent and memorable, but not as sharply 
defined as the main themes.

I do intend to see if I can get a recording of his 2-hour suite 
created from the soundtracks for the 3 films -- I think there's much 
of great merit in what I've heard in the movie and look forward to 
hearing what he does with it as purely musical material.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[David W. Fenton]

On 31 Dec 2004 at 12:49, Urs Liska wrote:

[quoting me:]
> > And, of course, some autographs show evidence of substantial 
> > composition during the writing process (as opposed to simply writing
> > down what's already planned out). The most famous examples are the
> > Haydn quartets, which were clearly *not* written out in Mozart's
> > typical method.
> 
> For those who can read German: The Book "Mozarts Schaffensweise"
> (Mozratr's working methods) by Ulrich Konrad covers this topic in
> detail. In the first part of the book he also explores the historical
> development of the idea/legend of Mozart inventing everything in his
> head and then just "copying" onto paper.

Unfortunately, I don't think Konrad gets the division of types 
exactly correct. He classifies certain layers of discarded 
composition in the Haydn quartets MSS, for instance, as fragments and 
drafts, when they are clearly nothing of the sort. Konrad's 
classification scheme is both too detailed and too hazily defined, in 
my opinion.

But we're stuck with it, as Konrad is one of the associate editors of 
Der Neue Köchel (along with Neal Zaslaw and my former dissertation 
advisor, Cliff Eisen).

I don't want to seem to discard Konrad's work, though -- it's 
breathtaking in its detail. I just disagree with some of his 
classifications, and I do think he fundamentally misrepresents the 
relationship between the MSS and the compositional process as seen in 
examples like the Haydn quartets.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc


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RE: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[David W. Fenton]

On 31 Dec 2004 at 11:09, Michael O'Connor wrote:

> The new super duper edition has an extra DVD that deals with the
> musical score, btw. You also get a Minas Tirath paper weight!

Which edition is that? I have the three extended editions, but I 
would have preferred a boxed set of the three together.

Ack. Am I going to have to buy the whole thing yet again?!?!

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Raymond Horton]

The main Star Wars tune is pretty much identical to a tune Korngold uses 
often in "Kings Row" (the early 50s movie where Ronald Reagan says 
"Where's the rest of me?").

RBH
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
At 09:24 AM 12/31/04 -0500, Christopher Smith wrote:
A master's 
 

musicology student I went to school with put together a series of 
needle drops from famous composers' works that very closely mimicked 
the Star Wars main title.
   

Check out "The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex" from the late 1930s.
Listen to that film overture by Korngold, and you're hearing the fanfare,
melody, harmony, phrasing, orchestration, and structure of the "Star Wars"
overture. I heard it about the time "Star Wars" came out, and knew that
Williams must have cribbed it. I played the "Elizabeth and Essex" music for
my kids back in my elementary teaching days, and they all cheered because I
was playing "Star Wars". It seems to me he cribbed an awful lot of his
material from others, or at best assembled & re-assembled others' building
blocks. He did orchestrate for the big names in his early days, isn't that
right?
As to the transcription topic, I charge MIDI transcription by the hour
after having been burned by quoting a piece-price for a little 4-minute
band march. It turned out the quantization was all screwed up and the
'orchestration' was jumbled lines and scraps patched into place as needed.
Some instruments were used in only one measure.
Dennis
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RE: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Michael O'Connor]

For each release there was a Special Extended Edition box that came with
some sort of trinket for an extra $10. The Return of the King comes with a
Minas Tirath box from Weta and an extra DVD "Creating The Lord of the Rings
Symphony". This link has the info:

http://www.lordoftherings.net/homevideo/frame_special_dvd.html?NoMansExtndCu
t

Mike

*
Michael O'Connor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
Of David W. Fenton
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 6:49 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: RE: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism


On 31 Dec 2004 at 11:09, Michael O'Connor wrote:

> The new super duper edition has an extra DVD that deals with the
> musical score, btw. You also get a Minas Tirath paper weight!

Which edition is that? I have the three extended editions, but I
would have preferred a boxed set of the three together.

Ack. Am I going to have to buy the whole thing yet again?!?!

--
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[dhbailey]

Michael O'Connor wrote:
For each release there was a Special Extended Edition box that came with
some sort of trinket for an extra $10. The Return of the King comes with a
Minas Tirath box from Weta and an extra DVD "Creating The Lord of the Rings
Symphony". This link has the info:
http://www.lordoftherings.net/homevideo/frame_special_dvd.html?NoMansExtndCu
t
When giving long URLs it is polite to also state what it begins with and 
what it ends with in case it is divided onto two lines for recipients of 
the message.

In this case it begins with http:// and ends with ExtndCut -- that final 
t was on a second line on my screen so the link didn't work when I 
clicked on it.

--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Brad Beyenhof]

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 06:39:45 -0500, dhbailey
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Michael O'Connor wrote:
> 
> > http://www.lordoftherings.net/homevideo/frame_special_dvd.html?NoMansExtndCu
> > t
> 
> When giving long URLs it is polite to also state what it begins with and
> what it ends with in case it is divided onto two lines for recipients of
> the message.

Also helpful is http://tinyurl.com, which creates a smaller "shortcut
URL" suitable for such situations.

I set up a TinyURL (free, permanent, and easy) for the link in question:
http://tinyurl.com/48jad

-- 
Brad Beyenhof
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com
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RE: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[Michael O'Connor]

Sorry about that!

Mike

*
Michael O'Connor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
Of dhbailey
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 6:40 AM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism


Michael O'Connor wrote:

> For each release there was a Special Extended Edition box that came with
> some sort of trinket for an extra $10. The Return of the King comes with a
> Minas Tirath box from Weta and an extra DVD "Creating The Lord of the
Rings
> Symphony". This link has the info:
>
>
http://www.lordoftherings.net/homevideo/frame_special_dvd.html?NoMansExtndCu
> t
>

When giving long URLs it is polite to also state what it begins with and
what it ends with in case it is divided onto two lines for recipients of
the message.

In this case it begins with http:// and ends with ExtndCut -- that final
t was on a second line on my screen so the link didn't work when I
clicked on it.


--
David H. Bailey
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[laloba2]

Btw, an British composer I know composed the music for a couple of 
Hollywood movies in the 70s. He said that "Hollywood rules" forced a 
composer to have an orchestrator even if that person isn't used (in 
cases where the composer orchestrate him/herself, which my fried 
did). Was it really like that? Or perhaps it still is like that?
I'm not aware of any "rules" that require a composer to have an 
orchestrator.  I'm thinking that the producers/directors may have 
wanted your friend to have an orchestrator in place if things got 
tight with time.  While I know of instances where a composer has done 
all of the orchestration themselves, it is the exception rather than 
the rule just because of the huge amount of work that is involved in 
scoring a film along with the tight deadlines.

Best,
Karen
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RE: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[David W. Fenton]

On 1 Jan 2005 at 1:05, Michael O'Connor wrote:

> For each release there was a Special Extended Edition box that came
> with some sort of trinket for an extra $10. The Return of the King
> comes with a Minas Tirath box from Weta and an extra DVD "Creating The
> Lord of the Rings Symphony". This link has the info:
> 
> http://www.lordoftherings.net/homevideo/frame_special_dvd.html?NoMansE
> xtndCu t

Damn. I saw that and thought it was *just* the trinket, which didn't 
interest me. I wish I'd read the box more closely -- I'd really like 
to see the extra DVD.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism

[David W. Fenton]

On 1 Jan 2005 at 7:55, Brad Beyenhof wrote:

> On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 06:39:45 -0500, dhbailey
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Michael O'Connor wrote:
> > 
> > > http://www.lordoftherings.net/homevideo/frame_special_dvd.html?NoM
> > > ansExtndCu t
> > 
> > When giving long URLs it is polite to also state what it begins with
> > and what it ends with in case it is divided onto two lines for
> > recipients of the message.
> 
> Also helpful is http://tinyurl.com, which creates a smaller "shortcut
> URL" suitable for such situations.
> 
> I set up a TinyURL (free, permanent, and easy) for the link in
> question: http://tinyurl.com/48jad

But might I request that if you to a TinyURL you also include the 
original link. Why?

1. the original link tells you things about where you're going and 
can help you decide if it's worth your time.

2. in archived discussions, the TinyURL may someday be invalid, while 
the original URL (while also volatile) may give you enough 
information to find the original information if it ends up being 
moved elsewhere.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism-reply to Christopher

[laloba2]

I consider midi transcription to be any or all of these things:
--Deleting redundant and/or empty tracks from a midi file
--Quantizing each remaining track within my sequencer so that it 
will come into Finale nicely after export.
--Exporting cleaned up and quantized midi file and then importing 
it into Finale.
--Taking down any other loop or sample information that is part of 
the piece but may not be fullyindicated as notes in the file (I 
ask the composer to provide an audio file along with the midi file 
to make sure my work is accurate and has everything included.)
--Setting up a completed sketch from the imported file in Finale 
which is an accurate representation of what is going on in the midi 
file complete with brief indications of where horns are muted, 
stopped etc. and strings are pizz, arco etc. and what notes are in 
harp glisses for example.  Also if articulations are part of a 
patch name, I'll include a note about that in my sketch (i.e. 
stacc. horns) This final sketch should be similar to what a 
composer might normally hand his/her orchestrator.
Your work method is good to see. I wonder, though, whether the usual 
six-staff sketch is viable in Finale, as there are so many fussy 
details that are easy to sketch in by hand with a pencil that are a 
pain (or more to the point, not time-effective) to do in Finale.
Sometimes I print out the midi file part of the sketch when I am done 
with just that part and then fill in other things with pencil such as 
loop information that doesn't necessarily come in as "notes" or audio 
that may be in the audio file but not as midi.  You are right...it is 
often quicker and easier this way!  But ultimately, it all goes into 
the final sketch in Finale especially if it is going to an 
orchestrator.  I think that is much more professional.

What I am thinking of here are things like multiple sets of stems on 
one staff,
I usually break differing rhythms out in my sequencer and put them 
onto their own staff.  Then bring into Finale and use layers to put 
things on one staff if it makes sense to do that.  Everything stays 
very clean that way!

instruments that only play a few notes like harp and percussion,
I keep these on their own linesthey will have to go on their own 
lines in the score anyway so I just leave them that way.  It's faster 
when it comes time to orchestrate either for the orchestrator or for 
me...whoever the orchestrator happens to be :-)


or very dense passages with overlapping parts.
I try to figure this out in the sequencer as much as possible and put 
things on their own staff if necessary as I mentioned above.  Once 
everything is broken out and quantized, it is often amazing how much 
clearer things are than it originally looked like it was going to be.


Does your sketch vary in numbers of staves,
Yes...it is more of a mini score than the traditional 6 stave sketch. 
As many staves as it takes to be clear but not so many that it isn't 
as consolidated as possible.

and do you keep dissimilar parts always on different staves?
Yes and no...I may use layers in some instances to do stems up and 
stems down on one staff if it makes sense to do so (sometimes in the 
strings if it looks like violins will be divisi for example)  Other 
than that, I'm not afraid to pop an extra staff in there to keep the 
clutter down.

Do you mix Finale and pencil on the same sketch?
Not as the final sketch...only as an interim step if it is easier for 
me to do...

How do you deal with synth effects? I usually am asked to leave them 
out of the score, but I always feel that the conductor should know 
that there is a missing element, and the orchestrator DEFINITELY 
needs to know (which is usually me in my jobs!)
This depends on what the client wants...will the synth be part of the 
performance/recording session?  If this is the case, I will put cues 
in the conductor's score if they want me to.  If the synth part is 
part of the midi file but isn't really a single instrument but 
something that the orchestrator will have to adapt for real players, 
I'll make sure that the synth parts are in the sketch.  I'll name the 
staff the same name as the patch(es) that was used . For example 
"orch hits" will be named as such and then I'll use rhythmic notation 
to show where the hits are exactly.  One just has to think about what 
will be the most clear.  But, as a rule, I'll ask the client what 
they want to see up front and ask if I'm not sure about something as 
the project goes along.


You are right here both are credited as orchestrator.  And, 
yes, John Williams' sketches are very detailed already.
Hmm, there seems to be some difference of opinion on that point. 
Bruce has weighed in recently with info to the contrary...
I saw that David Hage cleared this up.  The notation that Bruce was 
describing sounded like the way coma sopras are written in paper and 
pencil scores...cue names have letters and numbers and then of course 
the measure n

Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism-reply to Christopher

[Christopher Smith]

On Jan 3, 2005, at 4:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You are right here both are credited as orchestrator.  And, yes, 
John Williams' sketches are very detailed already.
Hmm, there seems to be some difference of opinion on that point. 
Bruce has weighed in recently with info to the contrary...
I saw that David Hage cleared this up.  The notation that Bruce was 
describing sounded like the way coma sopras are written in paper and 
pencil scores...cue names have letters and numbers and then of course 
the measure numbers that are being repeated are written in.  Coma 
sopras are common for example if a cue has been revised and also for 
another example in an "end credit medley" so to speak.


Thanks for clearing up your points so much. Fascinating to see how 
other people work out solutions to workflow and client problems. This 
list is great on so many levels; it makes me feel like I'm not alone 
when I have to come up with an odd solution to something.



Thanks so much for the incredible detail and complete response to my 
questions. Happy new year!
You bet!  Your posts are excellent (you are amazing with that 
percussion map stuff!) and I'm sure you'll bail me out at some point! 
Gotta love this list!  Happy New Year to you as well!


You are too kind. I think I am wallowing around trying to find 
something that works, so it is a surprise to me to find that somebody 
actually gets anything from my posts.

Anyway, my family is renting Harry Potter 3 today (we are all still on 
holidays and the weather is pretty bad right now) and I will enjoy 
hearing JW's music for the second time. I find I can pay more attention 
the second time I see a film, as I get lost in the whole package (as I 
should, I think) the first time around.

Regards,
Christopher
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism-reply to Christopher

[Aaron Sherber]

At 04:00 AM 01/03/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>I saw that David Hage cleared this up.  The notation that Bruce was
>describing sounded like the way coma sopras are written in paper and
>pencil scores...
That's 'come sopra' (okay, technically 'cóme sopra'), of course -- Italian 
for 'as above'.

Aaron.
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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism-reply to Christopher

[laloba2]

Anyway, my family is renting Harry Potter 3 today (we are all still 
on holidays and the weather is pretty bad right now) and I will 
enjoy hearing JW's music for the second time. I find I can pay more 
attention the second time I see a film, as I get lost in the whole 
package (as I should, I think) the first time around.
While you are listening to the score this time around...also think 
about the fact that those players are sight reading...:-)


-K

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Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism-reply to Christopher

[laloba2]

At 04:00 AM 01/03/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I saw that David Hage cleared this up.  The notation that Bruce was
describing sounded like the way coma sopras are written in paper and
pencil scores...
That's 'come sopra' (okay, technically 'cóme 
sopra'), of course -- Italian for 'as above'.

Aaron.
Thank you Aaron!
-K
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OT: LOTR DVDs (was: Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism)

[Jari Williamsson]

David W. Fenton wrote:
Which edition is that? I have the three extended editions, but I 
would have preferred a boxed set of the three together.
It's the gift set editions (extra DVD + statue). Each gift set had an 
extra DVD (Fellowship had the Tolkien documentary, TTT had the extra 
Gollum DVD, and ROTK has the Howard Shore concert DVD).

IMO, the Howard Shore concert DVD is not worth the time. It's basically 
a 50 minute excerpt from a concert with some interrupts where Howard 
Shore sits in a chair and "reads" things to you that you already know in 
much more detail by looking at the original extended versions.

Best regards,
Jari Williamsson
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Re: OT: LOTR DVDs (was: Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism)

[laloba2]

David W. Fenton wrote:
Which edition is that? I have the three extended editions, but I 
would have preferred a boxed set of the three together.
It's the gift set editions (extra DVD + statue). Each gift set had 
an extra DVD (Fellowship had the Tolkien documentary, TTT had the 
extra Gollum DVD, and ROTK has the Howard Shore concert DVD).

IMO, the Howard Shore concert DVD is not worth the time. It's 
basically a 50 minute excerpt from a concert with some interrupts 
where Howard Shore sits in a chair and "reads" things to you that 
you already know in much more detail by looking at the original 
extended versions.

I have a great deal of respect for Howard Shore and the work he has 
done as a composer.   But I can't hear or read his name without also 
hearing somewhere in the back of my mind "and his all Nurse Band"

He was the first Saturday Night Live Music Director (hence "Howard 
Shore and his all Nurse Band!")  and also helped start "The Blues 
Brothers"...There is a SNL sketch with Lily Tomlin and Howard Shore 
and his all Nurse Band singing St. James Infirmary which is hilarious.

-K


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Re: OT: LOTR DVDs (was: Re: [Finale] MIDI transcriptionism)

[Christopher Smith]

On Jan 3, 2005, at 3:34 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have a great deal of respect for Howard Shore and the work he has 
done as a composer.   But I can't hear or read his name without also 
hearing somewhere in the back of my mind "and his all Nurse Band"

He was the first Saturday Night Live Music Director (hence "Howard 
Shore and his all Nurse Band!")  and also helped start "The Blues 
Brothers"...There is a SNL sketch with Lily Tomlin and Howard Shore 
and his all Nurse Band singing St. James Infirmary which is hilarious.

-K
Before that he was a saxophonist with the Canadian jazz-rock group 
Lighthouse (kind of a Canuck Blood, Sweat and Tears, well, actually 
B,S+T's lead singer David Clayton Thomas WAS Canadian. Maybe you know 
Lighthouse's hits "Sunny Days", "You Girl" and "One Fine Morning".)

Christopher (never one to let a little Canadian pride escape his notice)
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