Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
Opinions seems to me to go a bit too much in one single direction on this _ so let me try to play the devil's advocate.. On Dec 9, 2003, at 11:44 PM, Max Horn wrote: Am Dienstag, 09.12.03 um 21:56 Uhr schrieb TheSin: netpbm10 has 2 children: - netpbm10-shlibs - netpbm-bin so netpbm-bin has two parents Ugh! That's quite a nasty trick. In particular it means that if I do this: fink install netpbm netpbm-bin Fink will *not* do what I expect it to do... If you install pkgs you don't know, right. On the other hand, if you have netpbm-bin installed, and you do a blind fink update-all, you'll stay up to date... Why was this done? Why not netpbm10-bin, which then Provides: netpbm-bin ? I can't speak for the maintainers of all those packages, but one seemingly obvious motivation would be that this way, a user who has selected netpbm-bin and just wants to stay up to date, will stay so, automatically via update-all. I.e., the fact that the functionality of update-all has basically been broken by the spitoffs venture is largely resolved by this 'trick', at least in as much concerns the users. (Of course it doesn't help to update the deps of other packages _ but that's an other issue _ at least the user's problem is largely solved by such a system.) The fact that a command what not originally conceived with a specific use in mind is no argument against such use: specs specify what the command should do, not what the user should, and as long as the use conforms with them, the better if it is creative _ it only shows addtional merit in the original design. So I could see an argument for not tightening the specs, even if minor adjustments in fink are required to fully support such use, because the alternatives to fully support an 'update-all' function _ from the user's point of view _ seem so much heavier, and hence further away. JF Mertens --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
On Dec 9, 2003, at 7:45 AM, D. Höhn wrote: There can be many children but only _one_ parent. Is that correct? netpbm-bin has as parents both netpbm and netpbm10 _ and there may be a couple more such examples. Jean-Francois --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
and what happens in this instance? I never thought of this, I'm gonna test it right now...thanks JF. --- TS http://southofheaven.org Chaos is the beginning and end, try dealing with the rest. On 9-Dec-03, at 9:13 AM, jfm wrote: netpbm-bin has as parents both netpbm and netpbm10 _ and there may be a couple more such examples. Jean-Francois smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
seems to only show the first match, that isn't good... Glad you caught this as I'm using this sub in the shlibs code and that could have caused a huge head ache. --- TS http://southofheaven.org Chaos is the beginning and end, try dealing with the rest. On 9-Dec-03, at 9:13 AM, jfm wrote: On Dec 9, 2003, at 7:45 AM, D. Höhn wrote: There can be many children but only _one_ parent. Is that correct? netpbm-bin has as parents both netpbm and netpbm10 _ and there may be a couple more such examples. Jean-Francois smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
maybe someone will know this better then me. in get_splitoffs I'm using this $package = Fink::PkgVersion-match_package($name); which will return one match to a pkg name maybe the fault it there since there are two versions of netpbm-bin. or am I wrong, does it return both and I just don't know how to get the info from package at that point? --- TS http://southofheaven.org Chaos is the beginning and end, try dealing with the rest. On 9-Dec-03, at 9:36 AM, TheSin wrote: seems to only show the first match, that isn't good... Glad you caught this as I'm using this sub in the shlibs code and that could have caused a huge head ache. --- TS http://southofheaven.org Chaos is the beginning and end, try dealing with the rest. On 9-Dec-03, at 9:13 AM, jfm wrote: On Dec 9, 2003, at 7:45 AM, D. Höhn wrote: There can be many children but only _one_ parent. Is that correct? netpbm-bin has as parents both netpbm and netpbm10 _ and there may be a couple more such examples. Jean-Francois smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
I think this is true for at least parent, as I explained before I have many users ask where a pkg is, like in the case of mplayer which depends on libavcodec which is in ffmpeg. Fink will say it can't find the depend on libavcodec, and then ppl don't know where to find this. Now if it's not in there tree this won't help but I figured the PDB might be able to use it at least and other then that it's a good devel tool as would fink locate so you know what file it's reading from, which I wanna add next but i wanna wwait to see if you are gonna add a devel space first. --- TS http://southofheaven.org Chaos is the beginning and end, try dealing with the rest. On 9-Dec-03, at 1:53 PM, Max Horn wrote: I wonder why you think so? Why would a non-developer need these? All situations I can think off were they might need it are scenarios were they have to fix/workaround bugs. I.e. it's like with tools to repair a car: the average car driver should never have to use them, but some people still want to be able to use them, and sometimes the car is not well built so you prefer learning how to repair it yourself instead of having to pay for the service (i.e. ask on a mailing list) each time. But that's more a sign of a not well made car (i.e. it means there are things in fink which should be improved). It's the cure of the symptom vs. cure of the cause debate. IMHO you shouldn't have to know about splitoffs at all, if you have to, then usually because you need to cure a symptom, but the real fix would be for the fink developers to cure the cause :-) Just to clarify something: When I say I consider these as developer commands, that doesn't mean I want to prevent normal users from using them. Rather it means that the primary audience for them will be fink developers/packagers. Just like Apple's Developer Tools: Everybody can install them, but most non-developers have no reason. Of course there are still some non-developers (e.g. Fink users :-) who may want to install them anyway, which is fine. PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
no this isn't true as JFM showed us... [EMAIL PROTECTED] [~]$ fink splitoffs netpbm-bin netpbm10 Information about 1923 packages read in 2 seconds. Information about 27 shared libraries read in 0 seconds. netpbm-bin is a child, it's parent netpbm10 has 2 children: - netpbm10-shlibs - netpbm-bin netpbm10 has 2 children: - netpbm10-shlibs - netpbm-bin so netpbm-bin has two parents and match_package doesn't account for this so neither can get_splitoffs see my other post on this topic. --- TS http://southofheaven.org Chaos is the beginning and end, try dealing with the rest. On 9-Dec-03, at 1:53 PM, Max Horn wrote: Furthermore naming it this way would indicate two things: There can be many children but only _one_ parent. Is that correct? Yes. PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
just noticed i posted the wrong example here it is. netpbm has 2 children: - netpbm-shlibs - netpbm-bin netpbm10 has 2 children: - netpbm10-shlibs - netpbm-bin --- TS http://southofheaven.org Chaos is the beginning and end, try dealing with the rest. On 9-Dec-03, at 1:56 PM, TheSin wrote: no this isn't true as JFM showed us... [EMAIL PROTECTED] [~]$ fink splitoffs netpbm-bin netpbm10 Information about 1923 packages read in 2 seconds. Information about 27 shared libraries read in 0 seconds. netpbm-bin is a child, it's parent netpbm10 has 2 children: - netpbm10-shlibs - netpbm-bin netpbm10 has 2 children: - netpbm10-shlibs - netpbm-bin so netpbm-bin has two parents and match_package doesn't account for this so neither can get_splitoffs see my other post on this topic. --- TS http://southofheaven.org Chaos is the beginning and end, try dealing with the rest. On 9-Dec-03, at 1:53 PM, Max Horn wrote: Furthermore naming it this way would indicate two things: There can be many children but only _one_ parent. Is that correct? Yes. PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
I completely agree with this, I don't think two pkgs should have the same pkg in it, could end up with bad problems, specially in the bindist...I suppose this is more of a pkg bug.. --- TS http://southofheaven.org Chaos is the beginning and end, try dealing with the rest. On 9-Dec-03, at 3:44 PM, Max Horn wrote: Why was this done? Why not netpbm10-bin, which then Provides: netpbm-bin ? PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
fink showparent libavcodec-shlibs would show it's in ffmpeg. then they could copy over that info file. And of course for us with like 100 pkgs well I don't need to explain the devel usage i think. --- TS http://southofheaven.org Chaos is the beginning and end, try dealing with the rest. On 9-Dec-03, at 3:46 PM, Max Horn wrote: I don't get what you are trying to say. How the heck would fink children or fink showparent be used in this situation?!? PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
I've never looked at the PDB so your right but then it could reuse the sub to get this info. And add a show parent in the PDB for users, but then it could be in the devel module. so how about it? I'm willing to get the module started and move some commands to it, if someone will right the release code to exclude it? I personally like this method fink devel which loads Fink::Devel if present else it errors like it would if the command doesn't exist. --- TS http://southofheaven.org Chaos is the beginning and end, try dealing with the rest. On 9-Dec-03, at 3:46 PM, Max Horn wrote: The PDB doesn't use *any* fink command line commands. It access the Fink perl code directly. Bad example :-) PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
TheSin wrote: I completely agree with this, I don't think two pkgs should have the same pkg in it, could end up with bad problems, specially in the bindist...I suppose this is more of a pkg bug.. There are other packages that do this. python has python21, python22, and python23 as parents. IIRC one of the reasons for introducing this was that you could not have versioned dependencies on virtual packages (you can now, can't you?). Another is probably that parts of the shlibs policy are not contradiction-free. It is not clear how to deal with version-dependent files that don't have version-dependent names. As we have seen in the libpng/libpng3 disaster, there is no solution for this problem. -- Martin --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
Am Dienstag, 09.12.03 um 00:43 Uhr schrieb TheSin: I just added these two commands to fink HEAD, dmalloc should be adding them to the man pages for me tomorrow, please provide feedback. fink splits - returns a list of children of a pkg including it's parent Should be fink splitoffs, with a shortcut alias splits fink find - returns only the parent of a pkg for quick reference. Badly named, why not fink parent FOO ? fink find sounds *way* more generic than that and IMO will quickly lead to confusions. Furthermore, I am not happy with those esoteric commands polluting the global command name space. Maybe we should move all developer commands to a separate namespace, a bit like cvs admin ... fink dev splits FOO or even a separate command: fink-dev splitoffs (the check/verify, and checksums commands would be other candidates for this). Cheers, Max --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
I'm not sure showparent is a dev command though I've had lots of ppl move mplayer into their local and then it depends on libavcodec which it's a pkg it's part of ffmpeg and xmms-aac which is part of faad. But I know these since I'm the maintainers, even other devel have asked me about em. but i do like having a fink devel switch type thing and that could be in devel.pm. --- TS http://southofheaven.org Chaos is the beginning and end, try dealing with the rest. On 8-Dec-03, at 6:36 PM, Peter O'Gorman wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Max Horn wrote: | Furthermore, I am not happy with those esoteric commands polluting the | global command name space. Maybe we should move all developer commands | to a separate namespace, a bit like cvs admin ... | fink dev splits FOO | or even a separate command: | fink-dev splitoffs | (the check/verify, and checksums commands would be other candidates for | this). Or even have a completely separate fink-dev package which has these extra commands/ developer-only features. Peter - -- Peter O'Gorman - http://www.pogma.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQCVAwUBP9UnD7iDAg3OZTLPAQKQTgP+MTA6ISSClrOLhRkuFPjFDxs4EPHKraMi KshQBo+B6xMbNeYYtFE73TWEUYIeWUOkdrQ/XxpouBftqbi45hzZbooYl5YXsNmK blZWZR1izMpzGoXiZZjG6aaluVYhQwi5CISIxSyyCuehIRchFhP5RGeayVeFeYb/ J5nYWWUeXX8= =hctd -END PGP SIGNATURE- smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
But let's not call it the fink-dev package... that's where I would expect to find fink.h ! -- Dave --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] new fink commands
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: RIPEMD160 TheSin wrote: | I just added these two commands to fink HEAD, dmalloc should be adding | them to the man pages for me tomorrow, please provide feedback. | | fink splits - returns a list of children of a pkg including it's parent | | fink find - returns only the parent of a pkg for quick reference. snip Actually I have been thinking about this while I drove to work and I think splitoffs or even splits is badly named. TheSin and I did stick with the parent - Children theme because it has a certain phsychological indication and thus it would make those commands suitable even for none developers. I would suggest that you name the actual switches children and parent Furthermore naming it this way would indicate two things: There can be many children but only _one_ parent. Is that correct? I wont be adding to the man page until this has been decided on. Personally I do nto feel this is a developer only command. - -d -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.3.4 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/1W+QPMoaMn4kKR4RA53uAKCRV8FCNDqo/aImZAnKD2be4XBSFgCcCUXe 1KcQu3it5IyXlZMro7gBefg= =twi3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: SF.net Giveback Program. Does SourceForge.net help you be more productive? Does it help you create better code? SHARE THE LOVE, and help us help YOU! Click Here: http://sourceforge.net/donate/ ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
