Re: alfalfa vs. grass
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have an arab that is now 22 years old and for the first few years of her life here in So. Calif. we fed only alfalfa, as everybody did in those days. We then moved to Michigan for 12 years with her and had to change to grass hay with some alfalfa in it. We are now back in So. California again and all the horses get grass hay, but I do give a slight amount of alfalfa during the winter months. They all seem to do fine on it ( 1 QH, 1 Fjord, 1 Arab and 2 minis), so that is the way I will keep doing it. I did try 4-way hay to see how they liked it, and they didn't seem to like it as well as just the grass hay with a little alfalfa added to it. Rondi Tyler. Pinon Hills, So. Calif.
Re: alfalfa vs. grass
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 4/4/02 1:55:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > One theory is > that there is too much magnesium in alfalfa, and it precipitates out, > "growing" enteroliths---adding layers, sort of like a pearl, around > some bit of trash in the gut (gravel, a knot of hay twine, or > whatever). For more details, see the current issue of EQUUS magazine. > Some of these things get to be the size of grapefruit! > Sigh My second horse, an arab, lived in Southern California home of the enterolith. He had five of them. :( This was when they first started showing up in So. Cal. Everybody and their mother fed alfalfa at the time. Was a shame. He made it through surgery but died a year later from the adhesions from surgery. He was a fantastic arab that would literally walk through fire and water for me. Even cowboys liked him. Pamela Who has found horses as good as him in the fjord. But till meeting fjords, no horse could touch him!
Re: Feeding round bales
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't feed round bales of hay, but I do feed round bales of cornstalks -- the horses eat the leafy parts and bed down in the stalks. I do check the stalk bales for mold and would not feed them if they were moldy. I read recently -- in one of my horse magazines I think -- of a pony who foundered from eating the "veins" of alfalfa in a round bale of mixed alfalfa & grass hay. My Fjords and Annie, the bubble-butt Brabant, would be way too plump if I fed free-choice hay. They live a pretty leisurely life. DeeAnna
Re: Feeding Round Bales
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Problems of mold and dust. My 22 year old has developed a cough from the dust and from the light blue mold that forms on damp bales of hay. There probably is also mold in the stalls from our usual wet winters. Due to eyesight problems I was not aware of the blue mold. Usually I would just hose off the mold when I did see it. Now I wet all of his hay during his three feedings a day. The cough has improved, but it does lead to the heaves. Gunnar, my fjord let out a mighty cough the other day so I am watering his down also. Time for the new hay to start soon. Jean Jean Walters Gayle [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 To 1949 ] http://users.techline.com/jgayle Send $20 Three Horses Press PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: alfalfa vs. grass
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tammy I should think you would find "undigested" alfalfa in the horses manure if it were not digestible. My book says it is the most digestible if it is properly cut.Jean Jean Walters Gayle [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 To 1949 ] http://users.techline.com/jgayle Send $20 Three Horses Press PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Re: questions about anemia
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Amy, my big horse had anemia following a severe treatment for sarcoids. The treatment seemed to lower his immune system. I was told by my Vet to put him on Lixotinic, comes in a gallon container and horses like the taste. Liquid. But first find out why the mare is anemic. Jean Jean Walters Gayle [Authoress of "The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 To 1949 ] http://users.techline.com/jgayle Send $20 Three Horses Press PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
RE: Feeding Round Bales
This message is from: "Skeels, Mark A (MED)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mary and all,,,here's a book about my hay experience: I have had the same experience as you here in Wisconsin. Expecially with the first cutting, I usually have to leave the hay out on the field a couple weeks, otherwise there is always a strip through the middle that never gets dry. Rake it a million times. A breeze helps. Usually no problem with second or third cutting. I can't understand how some farmers can bail hay 2 or 3 days after its cut on the first crop, they do, I have felt the hay and it is wet as ever, my bail kicker would brake the bails as they don't slide through the bailer properly and when the conveyer shoots them out the strings brake, even with 7,500/roll string. I have been having a custom bailer come in on the first cutting and doing large square bales, he sometimes uses a little chemical to keep it from molding, his bailer has a moisture gauge and automatically knows if chemical is needed. The chemical is ok for the horses, its the same type of chemical used in making cheese. This works well as I can get 50 tons of hay off the field and in the barn in 1 after noon. Usually rains every couple days here so that is important. I cut it and rake it, then call him when its ready to bale. $7 per 800 pound bale. About $9 if he uses chemical. I use my front end loader with a spear when feeding and drop a bail next to the fence, I then cut the strings and feed a flake at a time. 2nd and 3rd cuttings I do small square bales. I asked the vet about mold in hay being a problem for horses. He said he hasn't really seen a problem, he said the bad mold is seen more in corn or corn silage as far as horses go. Cows it doesn't seem to bother as much. The dust you see when you break some bales open I'm not sure what it is. My mother in law calls it tabacco dust or tabaccoing. They feed about 600 head of cattle and she doesn't consider it the same as mold. As far as mold goes, here in my part of Wisconsin, I can lay a board on the ground and 2 days later there will be mold growing on underside. Same with bales of hay. I try to cover the unused bales with a tarp if its going to be out in weather over a week. It just needs to rain a day on the hay and the bails get wet enough they start molding. That's what humidity does. My in-laws in Montana don't have a problem with mold. I feed first cutting hay as it has less alfalfa, mostly timothy. It is even a little over dry, the horses still get fat. I could never leave a whole bale out, the horses would look like ballons and the extra hay they eat comes out of the pocket. Of course my horses are ballons anyhow, I've seen them worse though. Also to note, I have heard it is well to not have the mares too fat before delivery, the extra fat tends to make for harder deliveries as the birth canal is smaller, unless that's a old wives tail, or husbands tail I read somewhere. If you are considering leaving a bail out for a weekend while you go somewhere it should be fine, that way the neighbors just have to check on the horse and not feed. That's my little more than 2 cents worth. By the way, I joined the group the first part of the week and am enjoying the chit chat. A cool/balmy 30ish here near Oconomowoc Wisconsin Greetings in the Lord Jesus : Mark and Sandra Skeels "Lord's Farm - Fjords" 1 Stallion, 3 mares, 3 geldings, 1 grey stud colt for sale, 2 or 3 fillies, we hope, due in May. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 8:19 AM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: Feeding Round Bales This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Anne Since we here on our farm make round bales, I would like to tell you my experience with them. I don't know all the illnesses that can occur when a horse injests dusty or mouldy hay or how to protect against this, so I will leave that for others that are better versed on the subject. However, I do remember while growing up in Indiana on a cattle farm that my father told me never to feed mouldy hay to even the cows and that has been imprinted there forever. When we make our hay here is no earthly way to COMPLETELY scatter the hay evenly for perfect drying and we have some sides of the hay field that gets, because of trees, more sun. If we waited till we were SURE all the hay was completely dry, we would have most of the hay over cured. Hence, when we roll it we sometimes, because some wetter hay was rolled up inside the roll, get some dusty spots or sometimes even a mouldy spot or two. I have fed these rolls to our horses by peeling it off and can attest to this. Now maybe other farmers can somehow prevent this from happening, but so far even with a hay tedder to scatter the hay more evenly for drying, we still see this happening to ours. I do feed these rolls to our cows, but never to our horses. Many horse owners, very knowledgable ones, do feed round
Re: questions about anemia
This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > I had my fjord's blood tested recently and it came back that she is anemic. I > was curios what you all might suggest, or recommend as far as vitamins go. I > have had Morgan's that were anemic before, but if I put them on something > like red cell, they became extremely hyper, even if the were usually calm/ > fjord like :). If you have any suggestions I would truly appreciate it. > > Thanks > Amy Ebbert Anemia is not a disease itself but may arise as part of many diseases. This is where you really need your vet to find out why if possible and help you select the treatment of choice. Anemia can be nutritional, it can occur because of a chronic disease or parasitism.It can be a symptom of some not very nice diseases. Why did you have a blood test done in the first place? Were there symptoms? Kathy Spiegel
Re: questions about anemia
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> First, I would ask Dr.Steve White here on the list, but your fjord may not actually be anemic. What was the "hematocrit" reading (%cell volume)? The normal range is about 32 to 52, with draft breeds and coldblooded breeds having much lower numbers than the "hot" bloods like Thoroughbreds, arabs and quarterhorses. Many vets who are not used to working with fjords and drafts will consider a hematocrit of under 35 as anemic. Red blood sells are stored in the spleen and released when needed, so a resting, relaxed Fjord would show a much lower reading than a hyper thoroughbred. It would be interesting to take a blood sample from your fjord when she is lazing around in the paddock and then take him out and exercise him and take a sample after he has trotted around a bit and see the difference. Jean in sunny Fairbanks, Alaska, +32 >I had my fjord's blood tested recently and it came back that she is anemic. I >was curios what you all might suggest, or recommend as far as vitamins go. Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Compost ?
This message is from: "Snowy Mtn." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi there All great gardeners have more energy in the spring to plant then time to weed . Organically you don't want to use treated wood in your beds. No arsenic yuk. A well composted manure pile with and leaves etc. can reach as high as 70 degrees cel. This is high enough to kill any harmful bactiera. No organic farmers can get manure without urine we all use manure. the trick is to properly pile, turn and WATER the compost pile to get the temp we want. After 3 years of composting I am sure it would be good . Well composted manure smell and feels like good fresh dirt. proper temp & water can make great compost in one year easily. I use compost to keep my water tanks from freezing in the winter. I have friends that use it to heat their greenhouse. Once when their circulating water pump got turned off, they melted their plastic pipes from the temp of their compost. I have found that you cannot find a better medium to start plants in then pure aged compost. P.S I love the new term fjordilizer too cute. We have 300 flats started in fjordilizer now. Good Luck and Happy gardening. Lauren Sellars www.fjordhorse.net
Re: Questions about using composted manure for vegetable gardening
This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Lois, check out this search (below) on this topic at GardenWeb (great site btw, w/ a multitude of specific gardening forums)...there were MANY hot & lively debates about using horse manure sans ivermectin, or with... http://search.gardenweb.com/search/?term=horse+manure+as+fertilizer Kmac in N. Nevada, where I wish spring would go away for a few days...all the 'cave dwellers' are emerging and calling non stop for landscping estimates! Original Message Follows From: "Bossmare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Questions about using composted manure for vegetable gardening Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:33:10 -0500 "...We've been thinking of starting a small farm market ..We have an abundance of old composted manure layered with leaf moldMy question would be about what, if any, residues are left by thewormers given to the horses. We have primarily used the ivermectin products..." Lois in NJ who has more ambition planting than weeding in August Karen McCarthy Great Basin Fjords Carson City, NV _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
Re: Round bales
This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gail, et al, I am probably way outta my league here, but can't botulism occur when something living,(say a cute widdle wabbit) that (carries, produces?) botulism is inadvertantly processed along w/ the feedstuff (pellets, haylage, round or sq. bales) and then ingested by our horses?? ...Ok, I HAD to know if I was on the right track, so here is a link that will give us all some answersdigest this: http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/news/2001/Aug/spoilage.htm Original Message Follows From: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: Round bales Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:08:22 -0800 This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There may be some confusion between dry round bales and round haylage bales? My understanding is that the botulism danger comes only with the haylage bales. Right? I think most of the people who have replied are referring to the dry round bales. Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karen McCarthy Great Basin Fjords Carson City, NV _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: alfalfa vs. grass
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > "Jim and Tamara Hooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I try to purchase only grass hay, but at times due to weather > conditions alfalfa may be the only thing available. I've heard the > bad thing about alfalfa is that a horse's stomach cannot properly > digest all of it so some of the undigested parts sit in the > stomach. Has anyone heard about this?? Alfalfa has many potential problems. For one thing (depending on just when it was harvested), alfalfa has up to twice the protein of grass hay. That's wonderful for cows making beef or milk; not so good for horses who like to "make" fat! Also, alfalfa is highly correlated with enteroliths (stomach stones, which can lead to often-fatal colic, due to blockages and even rupture of the intestines). One theory is that there is too much magnesium in alfalfa, and it precipitates out, "growing" enteroliths---adding layers, sort of like a pearl, around some bit of trash in the gut (gravel, a knot of hay twine, or whatever). For more details, see the current issue of EQUUS magazine. Some of these things get to be the size of grapefruit! Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Questions about using composted manure for vegetable gardening
This message is from: "Bossmare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> We've been thinking of starting a small farm market specializing in gourmet veggies and herbs not usually found in the supermarket. We also have an abundance of old composted manure layered with leaf mold. Our pile is on the side of a hill with a drive-thru sized ditch at the bottom. It is also under a lot of trees so we get the benefit of the fallen leaves mixing in with the manure. When we take out the compost we drive into the bottom of the ditch and take it out from the bottom of the pile. My estimate is by the time the compost gets to the bottom of the hill it is at least several years old. We want to grow everything organically. In reading up on such things I found warnings about using treated wood for raised beds because it has been found that the plants absorb the chemicals. Also, without explanation and I'll try to track down why, my local farm supply owner said never to use compost that had urine in it to grow food products. I've read about the dangers of E.coli from food grown in composted manure. My final question would be about what, if any, residues are left by the wormers given to the horses. We have primarily used the ivermectin products every two months and only occasionally the feed-thru wormers. We have not used the feed-thru fly control products. Any "Rodale" folks out there that can give me the answers? Lois in NJ who has more ambition planting than weeding in August
alfalfa vs. grass
This message is from: "Jim and Tamara Hooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It's interesting to hear that most people agree they can't let their Fjords free feed. I agree mine would "pop" before they felt full. I am not an expert on feeds, but I have heard that grass hay is easier for the Fjords to digest and better for them. I try to purchase only grass hay, but at times due to weather conditions alfalfa may be the only thing available. I've heard the bad thing about alfalfa is that a horse's stomach cannot properly digest all of it so some of the undigested parts sit in the stomach. Has anyone heard about this?? It was pointed out to me that a cow has several stomachs and they can process alfalfa fully where a horse cannot. Hopefully my Fjords don't have undigested alfalfa pieces from previous feedings in their stomachs...that would explain their size :) Tammy Hooper Naples, ID 60 degrees and sunny!
where are you?
This message is from: Bonnie Liermann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To Anne Weyker: Where are you in Wisconsin? I am from Manitowoc, on the shores of Lake Michigan. bonnie
Re: Round bales
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There may be some confusion between dry round bales and round haylage bales? My understanding is that the botulism danger comes only with the haylage bales. Right? I think most of the people who have replied are referring to the dry round bales. Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Round bales
This message is from: "Janne Myrdal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Greetings from ND. We bail all our own hay, natural praire grass, no fertilizer ever, and all our fjords eat off round bales all winter as does the QH as well. I have never had any problems with it, sickness nor fat. The winters here can be quite harsh and cold, and free hay feeding 7/24 is essential. I think there is risk involved in any kind of feeding, and I can almost hear audable gsaps from some of uro readres, but just sharing what has worked for us. There really is a huge difference depending on where you live tho, and the climate. Maybe our Vet could weigh in on this. If I were to feed sq. bales here, wow , I would be working 24/7. We do not grain nor alfa alfa any fjords unless with foal, as the praire hay here is quite suffecient, after all the buffalo used to roam here... Janne in ND, waiting for spring
questions about anemia
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I had my fjord's blood tested recently and it came back that she is anemic. I was curios what you all might suggest, or recommend as far as vitamins go. I have had Morgan's that were anemic before, but if I put them on something like red cell, they became extremely hyper, even if the were usually calm/ fjord like :). If you have any suggestions I would truly appreciate it. Thanks Amy Ebbert
Re: Feeding Round Bales
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Anne Since we here on our farm make round bales, I would like to tell you my experience with them. I don't know all the illnesses that can occur when a horse injests dusty or mouldy hay or how to protect against this, so I will leave that for others that are better versed on the subject. However, I do remember while growing up in Indiana on a cattle farm that my father told me never to feed mouldy hay to even the cows and that has been imprinted there forever. When we make our hay here is no earthly way to COMPLETELY scatter the hay evenly for perfect drying and we have some sides of the hay field that gets, because of trees, more sun. If we waited till we were SURE all the hay was completely dry, we would have most of the hay over cured. Hence, when we roll it we sometimes, because some wetter hay was rolled up inside the roll, get some dusty spots or sometimes even a mouldy spot or two. I have fed these rolls to our horses by peeling it off and can attest to this. Now maybe other farmers can somehow prevent this from happening, but so far even with a hay tedder to scatter the hay more evenly for drying, we still see this happening to ours. I do feed these rolls to our cows, but never to our horses. Many horse owners, very knowledgable ones, do feed round rolls free choice here in Virginia and the number seems to be growing. I can't honestly say I have heard of any tradegies from this feeding practice in our area. Good luck on your decision. Mary Harvey In the mountains of Virginia
Re: Feeding Round Bales
This message is from: Vivian Creigh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> When I was in Aiken training with Larry Poulin for 5 weeks the farm where he was located fed round bales, in fact round bales were fed at nearly every farm I went to. I had misgivings about putting round bales in with my three Fjord mares because of the threat of botulism as well as the image of Fjords looking like engorged ticks. I originally was buying small square bales from local feed store but that only lasted 3 days as the price comparison made feeding round bales much more attractive. The bales were kept under cover on pallets and once you peeled the outer layer the hay was green and sweet smelling. The vet down there ssaid that most people did not vaccinate for botulism as it apparently wasn't a problem. I'm relieved that I didn't make her a liar. I really think that because of the sandy soil having free access to hay at all times helped keep them from ingesting too much sand while browsing. I did feed them pysillium(sp). to prevent sand colic. It was really rather amusing to see the threee of them standing around a small mountain of hay like three Norwegian girls at an all you can eat buffet, but they didn't eat all day and they were all being worked quite hard. So I came back home with sleek well muscled ponies who I'm sure are wondering why the buffet is closed. I have to say that it worked really well for me and the mares have never looked better. My vet was totally impressed yesterday when she came out to do spring shots on the remaining horses. I'm not sure this would have been the case with ponies that weren't in hard work. Vivian Creigh Springfield, VT 26 degrees and sunny
Re: Feeding Round Bales
This message is from: "Anneli Sundkvist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I board my fjord. Most of his diet consists of round bale haylage (the horses have been given shots to avoid the most common form of botulism) that comes from the same farm where the barn is. Cider has actually spent some months whith free access to haylage, but that was in my previous barn and I moved and took the horse with me during the winter. I suspect that otherwise we've had one FAT fjord and a bunch of SWB:s and arabs looking just right by spring;o) Each round bale is brought into an open space inside the barn and opened by the barn-owner who checks for dead animals, mould etc. Once that is done, the haylage is fed to the horses. It takes them about 3 days to consume a round bale (14 horses: 10 SWB:s and other warmbloods, 1 shetland pony, 1 gotland pony, 1 pony of unknown, English origin, 1 fjord). They also eat haylage out in the field twice a day. Anneli ** Anneli Sundkvist Dept. of Archaeology & Ancient History St Eriks Torg 5 753 10 Uppsala +46-18-4712082
