Re: crossbreeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Janet, In a message dated 12/26/2002 11:35:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Lynda, the minute you suggest not accepting purebred Fjord horses from the > CFHA because their policies are not identical to the NFHR you are talking > about limiting the gene pool. and if we start with the CFHA, where does it > I believe Joan already answered this in part, and I personally know many CFHA members that do not wish to see crossbreeding going on. I do believe that as time goes on, the pressure from CFHA members that do not approve of crossbreeding will cause a change in policy. I just wanted to question if we, as NFHR members, could help this process along more quickly. You also have to remember that I have been dealing with sheer numbers these last couple of weeks, and they are very distressing. Regardless of personal opinion concerning slaughter, the fact remains Fjords ARE being sent to slaughter. WHY? This is what I, and many others, would like to find out. In one week, ONE WEEK, the UEF saved FOUR Fjords from slaughter. 3 reputed to be purebred, 1 reputed to be a Fjord/Quarter horse cross. 1 a 10 year old well trained gelding, 3 reputed to be going on 2 years old. These 3 youngsters give all indications of coming from the same farm as not only were they sent through at a minimum of 2 auctions as a lot, their manes and hooves are in similar condition. Not only that, but this smaller slaughter yard in Ontario not only says they have slaughtered Fjords in the past, but DISTINCTLY remembers two groups of Fjords going through since August. He could not remember the actual numbers, but estimated each group between 3-7. So, statistically, based off of what he remembered, this small slaughter yard not only slaughtered between 6-14 Fjords since August, but almost slaughtered 3 more. There could have been more, but as he explained, it is difficult for him to remember individual horses. The largest slaughter yard in the world, located in Fort Macleod, Alberta, did have Fjords on their site last week as of Friday. We did everything humanly possible to attempt to purchase these animals, even though we did not know the numbers involved. The man's response was a bit disturbing, but it is not necessary to go into that. As of Monday afternoon, the Fjords were gone. The man I spoke with would not tell me if they had in fact been slaughtered or not, but stated they were gone and he would indeed call me in the future WHEN more Fjords showed up as he did not realize I had wanted to purchase the other ones. This message was not relayed to him properly. Statistically, the majority of horses slaughtered in Canada come from the USA, so until we are able to compile data over a period of time, we cannot blame anyone outright for this problem, nor should we. We just need to fix it. The two leading causes, I would think, for this to be happening is overbreeding and crossbreeding. With knowledge comes power; with knowledge comes the ability to change. Lynda
more on crossbreeding-very long
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Rest assured I understand how crossbreeding can cause a great deal of damage. But it is not the mere fact purebreds are crossed that does the damage, it is what breeders and registries do with the crosses that can become harmful. I have been breeding purebred sheep for over 30 years. I have watched my chosen breed be completely destroyed by illicit crossbreeding. When illicit crossbreeding became fashionable, there were no safeguards such as DNA typing or microchipping available, and breeders crossed with similar looking (but yet different) breeds and quietly registered them as purebreds. Their purpose was to make the sheep taller so that they would compete in the show ring with taller breeds, but in the process lost all the traits the breed had been known for. Many unsuspecting buyers purchased 'purebred' sheep that did not perform like the purebreds. It was not the commercial sheep producers that wanted to use crossbreds in their flocks to perform a task that undid the breed, it was the dishonest purebred breeders who were looking for a quick win in the show ring that destroyed the breed. Here we have two scenarios of crossbreeding, one that supported the breed and made it flourish (crossing by the commercial lamb producers) and one that ultimately destroyed the breed (registering crossbreds as purebreds). A little over 10 years ago, I saw my chosen breed of sheep was doomed here in the U.S. as it could no longer perform the job it was originally cherished for due to registering the illicit crossbreeding, and the few remaining true purebred flocks were dangerously inbred. So I set out to obtain new genetics outside of the U.S.. Unable to import my preferred breed due to health regulations, I had to choose instead to recreate a similar genetic package by crossing my existing flock (of 200 ewes) with similar breeds imported from europe. Since importing an entire purebred flock would have cost me millions with no hope of recovering that in my lifetime, I had to settle on bringing in new rams and using them on my existing ewes. I now have a flock that can produce more predictably, and can outperform any of the purebred sheep of my old breed here in the US. My flock is no longer registered, as I they are now 'only grades', but my openly hybrid sheep command about 3X the price of the old purebreds because they do the job better. Was it my decision to import and outcross that ruined the old breed? or was it the greedy deceptive practices of the other breeders who registered crossbreds as purebreds that ruined the breed??? I also raise Border Collies and Livestock guarding dogs. I would never, ever, crossbreed my Border Collies, The BC breed does exactly what I want, and no other breed can improve upon that. However, I have been in New Zealand, where they needed a much farther ranging dog, and also needed a barking dog (BC's are quiet) due to the huge mobs of sheep they need to work. So BC's were crossed with other breeds to achieve what they needed. The result is a highly effective dog for huge mobs of sheep. Where would the NZ sheep producers be if all BC breed associations banned crossbreeding? I depend upon my livestock guard dogs to stay with and guard my sheep without harming them. How many dog breeds can you raise with sheep and trust them? not many, only a specially bred dog can do this job. Obviously I would not want to outcross my guarding dogs with other non sheep guarding breeds. However, I do breed within a specially selected circle of breeds (Maremma, Tatra, Kuvasz, Anatolian) and these hybrids are highly succesful. Our hybrid puppies sell for as much as the purebreds. why crossbreed the guard dogs? Because research (Hampshire College, Amherst Mass) showed that the hybrids expressed all of the desired traits (trustworthy, attentive, protective) better, and more reliably than the purebreds. They also lived longer. The reason? because by crossing two distantly related breeds, we paired up unrelated genes and created dogs that express a larger array of the desired traits than the purebreds which had much narrower gene pools (too narrow actually). btw, purebred dog breeders (most who do not own sheep and do not use them for work) are horrified by my hybrid program yet the people who depend upon these dogs to keep their flocks safe love them. For those in the rescue business, none of my hybrids have needed rescuing, because they performed their jobs so well that they are nearly all still on the job. Incidently, I have noted that the dog breeders who are the most controlling about their puppies (i.e. very strict spay and neuter contracts) have the least number of dogs actually out on farms working, and proving that they can work. Interesting isn't it? But the key in all these scenarios, is that the crossbreds are recognized as crossbreds and
crossbreeding
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In response to a coment that crossbreds are often healthier and take the best from both parents Ruthie wrote: >HOW MANY TIMES have I heard this IMPOSSIBLE to substantiate claim recycled?! >I say it's a total falsehood and the odds of "taking the best of both >parents" are no better than that with purebreds. Ruthie, Impossible to substantiate? The volumes of research on sheep, cows, pigs, chickens, corn, soybeans, dogs, and even mice and tribolium flour beetles that substantiate that hybrid animals are more adapted, resist disease better, perform better, and live longer would make a tower so tall you could not see the top. I must admit, I never came across such research on horses, but I would not doubt if one digs deep enough that back in the days when horses were the mainstay for farming, that someone researched crosses vs purebreds. But perhaps what speaks loudest is that the bulk of what pulled the plows and combines were grade farm 'chunk' horses and mules. There are a few exceptions... the Holstein dairy cow was unparalled, no cross or any other purebred was able to outperform the purebred Holstein in North America. But this is a rare exception. It is generally accepted that crossbred sheep and cattle produce 20% more lamb or beef than purebreds. This increased production is the sum total of being better adapted, healthier, and is what is referred to as 'hybrid vigor'. Janet W McNally
crossbreeding
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Lynda wrote: > Maybe you misunderstood my request. This has nothing to do with limited gene > pool Lynda, the minute you suggest not accepting purebred Fjord horses from the CFHA because their policies are not identical to the NFHR you are talking about limiting the gene pool. and if we start with the CFHA, where does it end? Janet
Re: crossbreeding and registries
This message is from: "Joan and Keith Kemp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I would like to make a few comments regarding the Canadian Fjord Horse Association. According to the Constitution - the objective is to encourage, develop and regulate the breeding of pure-bred Fjord Horses in Canada. Since 1987 all foals born had to receive the micro-chip implant. All horses sold after 1988 had to be micro-chipped prior to sale. To be eligible for registration: - an animal registered in any government controlled Stud Book - an animal not born in Canada and registered in any other Stud Book must have documented pedigrees leading back to Norway within three generations. - all animals recorded in the Foundation Stud book - an animal born the progeny of animals registered in the CFHA book whether born in Canadian or elsewhere. All breeding stallions must be DNA tested - before their offspring can be registered. Effective January 1, 2000 all breeding mares must be DNA tested before their offspring can be registered. Every 15th application received for registration is required DNA testing to prove parentage. Any horse not registered before reaching two years of age must be DNA tested to prove parentage before it can registered. At the CFHA 2001 Annual Spring Meeting which was held in Saskatchewan - the motion was put towards the members attending regarding the suspension of any mare or stallion that is used for crossbreeding with another breed - and that membership privileges including registrations, etc. would be lost. That motion was defeated. I believe that the presentation of this motion was an indication that some members are becoming concerned about this issue. Yes -there is crossbreeding going on - and as the constitution reads now - there is no penalty. But only purebred horses can be registered with the CFHA and the CFHA does not have a cross-breed registry. I think a great majority of the CFHA breeders are committed to preserving the breed and do not participate/condone crossbreeding. Joan Kemp Turtle Mountain Fjords Killarney MB R0K 1G0 Canada www.wdd.cx/fjords/
Re: fjordhorse-digest V2002 #304
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brigid wrote: ...Actually crossed breeds are much healthier, often taking the best of both parents... Ruthie replied: ...HOW MANY TIMES have I heard this IMPOSSIBLE to substantiate claim recycled?! I say it's a total falsehood and the odds of "taking the best of both parents" are no better than that with purebreds Uh, sorry, Ruthie, but "crossbred vigor" is ~not~ a falsehood. It can be observed in plants, animals, humans and bacteria. All of the corn you see growing in the U.S. are crossbreds, unless you're looking at a seed corn field used to produce crossbred seed from two purebred strains. Our country would not be the grain producer it is without crossbred seed -- the purebred strains just don't have what it takes in terms of disease resistance, growth, grain yields, etc. My grandfather raised purebred champion Yorkshire breedingstock hogs for years, and accepted a slower rate of growth and smaller litters, compared with crossbred hogs. My brothers raise hogs for market. Their market hogs are all crossbreds who show a greater rate of weight gain and resistance to disease. The key, however, to this "hybrid vigor" thing is this: You have to choose the ~right~ cross. Not all crossbred offspring will show advantages over the purebred parents. Whether Fjord crosses (had to work Fjords into this message somehow!) have measurable "hybrid vigor" compared with their purebred parents is something I don't think any of us really know. DeeAnna
Re: Fjord Gelding Wanted
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Linda, Just one thought about nervous riders. Many well trained horses know that legs pressing on their barrel means move forward. A nervous rider tends to clamp their legs on their horse to hang on and lock their hands so the bit tells the horse "whoa". This is confusing for the horse and they get nervous. Sometimes the only way they can respond to this is "up". Jean Walters Gayle Aberdeen, WA Author:The Colonel's Daughter $20 PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563
Fjord Gelding Wanted
This message is from: "Linda Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I agree with all of the postings thus far on buying a Fjord. There is no such thing as a "bombproof" horse, and we, as riders, should expect to get bumped and bruised from time to time. It does come with the territory! When I do buy my Fjord gelding I will be taking lessons with an instructor. I am taking lessons already, I'm just using a schooling horse. My horse friends say that I'm not a bad rider, I just need to increase my confidence level. I do feel confident that when I start to spend more time in the saddle my nerves won't be on "high alert". I've been on spooking horses while under saddle and it does scare me. Luckily the horses that I've been on that have spooked have not run off. They've taken a few steps then stopped. Whew!!! I'm enjoying reading all of the members postings on buying a Fjord gelding. Keep em' coming! Thanks, Linda
Re: Canadian Fjords
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Jean, > So Please don't > ! I believe you are misunderstanding me, and this IS a sensitive topic, so bear with me! I am not putting down the CFHA, I know of many wonderful members and also fantastic Fjords registered through this association. I am "putting down" the allowance of crossbreeding by the CFHA. That is it. It is an unfortunate fact that many Americans think we can "improve" a breed through line breeding and/or crossbreeding. We WILL see the later more and more with Fjords, I am thinking, as they become more popular. Line breeding in certain circumstances, i.e., limited gene pool, is understandable. However, there are equine breeds that still line breed today, even though their gene pool is virtually limitless. I am hoping we do not see the Fjord headed down this path. This is what concerns me. We will not stop even Americans from crossbreeding although the NFHR has policies in place to attempt to prevent this from happening. However, in Canada, I know of many CFHA members who have striven to attempt to put a similar policy in place within their association and it has not yet been approved. Why would this be? Why would Fjord breeders wish to retain this crossbreeding allowance? This is quite confusing to me, so someone please enlighten me! :) Lynda Lynda and Daniel Bailey's Norwegian Fjords Quality Fjords--Equine Transportation--Hand-braided Tack & Accessories White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/
Re: Canadian Fjords
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I also have an old gelding, Bjarne C-23, who has the same grandsire on both > sides..HE is inbred! His Grandsire is Stolman C-1, the first Fjord > registered in the CFHA, foaled in 1956 and also imported from Norway. Both > of his Grandmothers were imported from Denmark. There were only about 2 > bloodlines in North America at that time, so old Bjarne is inbred. He is 27 > and still going strong. I will not try to register him wih NFHR. My old Fjord mare, Nansy (who lived to be 32), was the result of similar in-breeding. She had only one grandfather, Solvfast---one of the original Fjords imported to the US from Norway in the 1950's. Nansy's father was King Harald, the first stalion registered by NFA. There was a lot of inbreeding in the early years of Fjords in North America, simply because there weren't many Fjords around, and that was long before AI had been perfected for horses. Most registries have accepted this fact, and horses that were inbred before a certain date (1983?) are registerable. I had no difficulties transferring Nansy's registration from NFA to NFHR. Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Re: crossbreeding
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > The reason mutts have a better chance at health, longevity etc. is simple genetics.<>.therefore problems related to inbreeding are unlikely. Second, > > animals can carry recessive genes which will only make themselves known > > when bred with another animal carrying the same recessive gene.<>.. === SAY, I KNEW you were a good sport and would take my post well Bridgid! =))) I've been around the old genetics discussion block a time or two on this subject as well, about inbreeding, recessive gene problems, etc... yes, what you say (above) is true PROVIDING purebreds are INDISCRIMINATELY bred by careless or uninformed breeders, (if not, it isn't applicable). on the UPSIDE of this same principle---some of the very best specimens have been bred this way! and I might add, of course this very same principle would be true for mutts as well if they were indiscriminately mated. It's just so easy to assess a particular breed and point a finger at their shortcomings, not so with the mutts God only knows where we're headed with that "mulligan!" I can tell you this however, having been involved in rescue work myself the purebreds are grabbed up immediately for adoptive placement, while the "guess-whats" go begging! That fact alone is reason enough for me to support the practice of pure breeding. I can get carried away on this subject so I had best lay it to rest. Nice talking to you Brigid and thanks for making me feel better about your weather =))) Ruthie, nw mt
Canadian Fjords
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have four Fjords, all registered in the CFHA. One is also registered in the NFHR as well as Norway, as she was imported. I also have her granddaughter, who's sire and grandsire were also imported from Norway. The only one on her pedigree who was not imported from Norway was her mother, both of whose parents are imported, I don't know how more "pure Norwegian" imported bloodlines I could get! I also have an old gelding, Bjarne C-23, who has the same grandsire on both sides..HE is inbred! His Grandsire is Stolman C-1, the first Fjord registered in the CFHA, foaled in 1956 and also imported from Norway. Both of his Grandmothers were imported from Denmark. There were only about 2 bloodlines in North America at that time, so old Bjarne is inbred. He is 27 and still going strong. I will not try to register him wih NFHR. Bjorken, my younger gelding, is Stella's son. He is registered with CFHA. He is microchipped, a requirement of the CFHA long before NFHR even thought of microchipping. There was no thought of registering him with NFHR at the time. They didn't even have a studbook available at that time, I couldn't look up bloodlines, etc. like I could in the CFHA studbooks. If you look at the bloodlines of many, even most NFHR registered fjords you will find Canadian registered stock, Fjords imported from Norway, Germany, Denmark and Holland into Canada and registered in the CFHA. So Please don't put down the CFHA! Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, with 2 inches new snow coating everything, a winter wonderland. Just wishing it had been about two feet of snow instead! We NEED snow! So stop yer complaining, you folks hoarding all that snow! Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: crossbreeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jean, In a message dated 12/26/2002 4:17:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Linda, when you first got into Fjords, I seem to remember you were selling > a lot of CFHA registered fjords? > Yes, we had purchased some yearlings from a breeder in Alberta. After we had paid for them and Dan was on his way, we found out that not only is crossbreeding allowed in Canada, but this particular breeder crossbreeds herself! Needless to say, we were not pleased although all these yearlings were able to be cross-registered and all the fillies DNA typed properly. However, DNA typing for Canada is a fairly recent requirement, what, maybe 3-5 years? I have always wondered how one can stop a non-Fjord from being DNA typed originally as a Fjord, for example in a context of a registry making DNA typing mandatory after already having members and Fjords registered. The DNA process has to start somewhere. We know many CFHA members that do not crossbreed and never will and raise superb Fjords. We will continue to consider purchase from any of them, but have no plans on purchasing from a person who crossbreeds as well as raises purebreds. Just our opinion, of course! Lynda Lynda and Daniel Bailey's Norwegian Fjords Quality Fjords--Equine Transportation--Hand-braided Tack & Accessories White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/
Re: crossbreeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Mike, In a message dated 12/26/2002 3:33:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > . If we don't allow Canadian registry horses in then we > So the majority of other Fjord registries allows crossbreeding? We are the odd ones out? Lynda and Daniel Bailey's Norwegian Fjords Quality Fjords--Equine Transportation--Hand-braided Tack & Accessories White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/
Re: crossbreeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 12/26/02 1:30:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > HOW MANY TIMES have I heard this IMPOSSIBLE to substantiate claim recycled?! > I say it's a total falsehood and the odds of "taking the best of both > parents" are no better than that with purebreds. *** Now tell me how you REALLY feel! ;-D > > Please don't take this personal Brigid, you just happened to be the 100th > person to say it to me, the other 99 got away with it but they were up > close > and you're waay down there in sunny Calif where you can't catch me =))) > > *** LOL. No problem, tell it like it is. However, I'm reasonably sure I'm > right! I would like to hear from the scientific types on this list for more > information. Scientific types?? > > The reason mutts have a better chance at health, longevity etc. is simple > genetics. First and most obvious, animals of different breeds are not > related. Therefore problems related to inbreeding are unlikely. Second, > animals can carry recessive genes which will only make themselves known > when bred with another animal carrying the same recessive gene. The chances > of animals of different or mixed breeds carrying these same genes is small. > The chances of two purebred animals producing a recessive-gene offspring > are significantly larger. For this reason, every canine breed has a > predominance for some medical problem (Golden Retriever hip dysplasia, > "Collie eye," I could go on). > > That's not to say that all crossed breeds are good looking, nice > conformation, etc. Boy have I seen some gly crosses on the equine sale > web sites! Draft/Thoroughbreds, for example, can be big boned yet refined, > OR they can have a skinny body and giant head :-P What Mother Nature > decides is "the best of both parents" may ensure survival, but would not > necessarily be what we would choose! > > Besides, we're having our FIRST snowfall of the winter today and I feel spiteful toward those who bask in the sun whilst we shiver !!! (joking ; *** Don't be too spiteful. We are shivering here, too. The rainy season came early this year and we have already been hit with two big storms, and another one on its way tomorrow! Brigid M Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Our http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Fjords http://www.ourfjords.freeservers.com/fw/Fjordings_Wesx.html";>Fjordings West / )__~ /L /L
Re: Gelding wanted/boomproof?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 12/26/02 1:08:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Almost > all horses can get close to being a great trail horse if given the time, > and a competent (not necessarily great) rider. Worth the time, time, > time!!! > Hi Jane- This statement struck home with me. When I first got my horses I was really ignorant, learning as I went (heck, this statement will probably be true forever!). At times I would get frustrated. A friend suggested that I make lists of goals and accomplishments. I did so. It was indeed encouraging, as I gained a realistic perspective and could track progress. I recently found that list in a pile of papers. "Goals" included things that are commonplace to me now, like safe trail riding and cantering. I had to laugh as I remembered tearfully writing these things, thinking they would never happen! They did indeed take time, patience, and understanding. I now have three "bombproof" horses, and they sure didn't come that way ;-) Brigid M Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Our http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Fjords http://www.ourfjords.freeservers.com/fw/Fjordings_Wesx.html";>Fjordings West / )__~ /L /L
Re: Gelding wanted/boomproof?
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 12/26/02 1:08:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > . Learning how to "give the horse little jobs to > do", especially the "calm down cues", is also valuable. > Well said Marsha. List member Dagrun taught me how to do these things with my boys. In the past I would sit there in the saddle, holding my breath, hoping for no problems! As you noted, this can leave one sitting in midair minus the horse ;-D "Keeping busy" works especially well for Rafael who is easily worried. Dagrun rode him just before it became stormy here in CA. After one big gallop to the gate (which she ignored) he decided she wasn't so bad after all! She did lots of bending exercises, using the reins and legs, releasing often with lots of praise. I was amazed at how he not only relaxed, but clearly enjoyed the lesson. When we were finished and Rafael went back to the pasture, he spent the rest of the day at the gate asking to come out again! Brigid M Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Our http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Fjords http://www.ourfjords.freeservers.com/fw/Fjordings_Wesx.html";>Fjordings West / )__~ /L /L
Re: crossbreeding
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The CFHA does not condone crossbreeding, altho they do not have a penalty. Also It is my understanding that they will not register inbred fjords born after a certain date. Stallions and mares are now required to be DNA'd, any offspring must be DNA'd if registerd after two years old (or younger?) CFHA registered horses are good stock, and for years I considered the CFHA the better registry as at least they had a stud book available, while the NFHR seemed to have nothing more to offer than registration.Now that the NFHR has gotten things together and become predominate, I don't think it is fair say that CFHA Fjords aren't any good, or not pure, etc. Linda, when you first got into Fjords, I seem to remember you were selling a lot of CFHA registered fjords? Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska with a fresh coating of 2" snow. +6 F. >I suspect that CFHA has recognized that rules against crossbreeding >are unenforcable. Fences break; horses jump; and nature takes its >course. You either have to punish all breeders whose Fjords act like >horses, or you have to make exceptions every time someone says "it was >an accident". > >IMHO, it is not NFHR's business to tell any other country how to run >its registry. Putting "sanctions" on another country's registry is >just going to get us in trouble in the international Fjord community. >I'm of the opinion that NFHR should be building bridges (for instance, >re-uniting the breed within the US), not burning them Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: crossbreeding
This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jean Walters Gayle Aberdeen, WA Author:The Colonel's Daughter $20 PO Box 104 Montesano, WA 98563 - Original Message - From: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 12:29 PM Subject: Re: crossbreeding > This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > At 11:19 AM 12/26/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > Cross Breeding happens in virtually every country where Fjords are > found. The breed almost disappeared in Norway years ago due to cross > breeding but was saved by some farmers that didn't like the temperament of > the crosses as well as the purebreds. > > MIke > > So then Mike we are actually dealing with cross breeds in our fjords in order to get back to a true Fjord horse??? Jean > === > > Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry > Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar > PO Box 685 > Webster, NY 14580-0685 > > Voice 585-872-4114 > FAX 585-787-0497 > > http://www.nfhr.com > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gelding wanted/boomproof?
This message is from: Don Brackett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There is really no 'bombproof' horse, Fjord or otherwise and if anyone tells you so...? I think they're alot that don't spook at most things but to Also remember that the horse takes his cue from the rider. So if you are nervous the horse will become nervous even if he wasn't to start with. He's looking around wondering what there is to be scared of, sure that there is some boggy man he can't see because you are nervous. A horse is different for every rider. Really. One lister's advice to get a trainer that will work with you and your horse is great. Almost all horses can get close to being a great trail horse if given the time, and a competent (not necessarily great) rider. Worth the time, time, time!!! We got a foot of snow last night. Osa and Geilo are like two furry kids bounding about in the snow and wind. Jane Maine
Re: crossbreeding
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 11:19 AM 12/26/2002 -0500, you wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] So, my question still stands, why should we as NFHR members condone the CFHA's practice of allowing inbreeding and crossbreeding? We do not condone it. We do all that we can to control it. I believe we need to keep politics & policies out of this and look at the horses involved. If the horse qualifies under our rules then I think it should be allowed to be registered. BY the way, Canada is not the only country that doesn't have a rule against cross breeding. If we don't allow Canadian registry horses in then we wouldn't be able to allow several other countries horses in either. Cross Breeding happens in virtually every country where Fjords are found. The breed almost disappeared in Norway years ago due to cross breeding but was saved by some farmers that didn't like the temperament of the crosses as well as the purebreds. MIke === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gelding wanted/boomproof?
This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Can I make a suggestion for the timid person looking for the well trained gelding. You may not find exactly what you want, and even if you do, the communication between horse and rider will not be instantaneous. Find a good trainer who will work with you and the horse even if you do find one well trained. Riding lessons alone, without the connection to the horses mind that you are using may help but you will get a lot more if you focus also on the horses behaviour. Start at the beginning ( even if it is review for the horse and you) so you know why horses respond the way they do and how they are motivated. It may not be the only way but I can attest that if you know why your horse does what it does and how to modify that behaviour, your enjoyment and ease and trust in the animal while riding will increase enormously. Don't be afraid to tell the trainer how you feel about riding. I went to several workshops, found a trainer whose methods and results I admired and asked for his help. He took my fjord for a month to get her started and worked with both her and me, explaining why and how he was doing things and then letting me do them. We meet back every 4 to 8 weeks and check up on progress and advance to new things. This trainer also genuinely enjoys the people too - necessary in a riding instructor for timid riders. I can make a mistake and laugh about it and I can tell him I do not understand what he is trying to tell me. -- Attilla the hun riding instructors will not do for some of us. The horse and I are learning together - it is the best money I have ever spent, and it has done wonders for my confidence. I feel I am investing in a partnership that should last a lifetime - mine and hers. Kathy in SE IDaho
Re: Gelding wanted/boomproof?
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > "Reena G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > There is really no 'bombproof' horse, Fjord or otherwise and if > anyone tells you so...? I think they're alot that don't spook > at most things but to Expect them to NEVER spook, well I don't > think it happens Agreed! I have a Fjord gelding who is probably as close to bombproof as a horse gets. But, I have discovered that simply means that when something happens, he stops, freezes in place, and considers whether the new thing is really a monster, or not. Most of the time, his experience and intelligence lead him to conclude that it's no biggie, and he carries on. But, on the rare occasions when he decides there is A Problem, he can whirl and exit stage left, VERY suddenly. "Spooky" horses tend to give one lots of warning that they're becoming upset; I have not been able to pick up any warnings when Sleepy decides that it's now time to depart. Needless to say, this leaves me "sitting in mid-air", as the horse vanishes out from under me. (It's amazing how athletic that pudgy boy can be!) It doesn't happen very often, but it certainly doesn't do my "riding nerves" any good when these "unplanned dismounts" do happen! Someone once told me that riding is a "contact sport". You're going to get bumps and bruises; it just goes with the territory. Take lessons from someone who will teach you the emergency dismount and how to roll with a fall. Learning how to "give the horse little jobs to do", especially the "calm down cues", is also valuable. Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Re: crossbreeding
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Actually crossed breeds are much healthier, often taking the best of both > parents. > > Brigid M Wasson = HOW MANY TIMES have I heard this IMPOSSIBLE to substantiate claim recycled?! I say it's a total falsehood and the odds of "taking the best of both parents" are no better than that with purebreds. Please don't take this personal Brigid, you just happened to be the 100th person to say it to me, the other 99 got away with it but they were up close and you're waay down there in sunny Calif where you can't catch me =))) Besides, we're having our FIRST snowfall of the winter today and I feel spiteful toward those who bask in the sun whilst we shiver !!! (joking ; Ruthie, nw mt
Re: crossbreeding
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Personally I felt the Fjord was 'just the right size' and 'just > the right temperment' so I purchased purebreds and have no motive > to produce crossbreds. > > Nonetheless, I think there is a lot of hyper phobia about > crossbreeding on this list. The DNA and microchiping policies of > the NFHR safeguard the Fjord breed from the possiblity of non Fjord > breeds from creeping into the gene pool. Well said, and I agree. NFHR's policies for the registration of new Fjords does safeguard the purity of the breed---purebred Fjords will not contain "outside" genes. However, IMHO, policies against crossbreeding (which I define to be the creation of part-Fjord grade horses) are at best futile, and possibly even counter-productive. Generally, someone who really wants to crossbreed doesn't particularly care what the registry thinks--- crossbreds don't need papers. (Plus, it seems that forbidding any behavior tends to encourage someone to try it!) Such a person will probably buy any old Fjord and do what he wants. If NFHR jerks the horse's papers, that simply guarantees that the horse WILL be used ONLY for crossbreeding---and probably a LOT of it, as the owner will see foals as his only way to recoup the purchase price (since the horse has lost its "purebred" resale value, without papers). And, if the person buys a Fjord "cull", that guarantees that the resulting crossbreds will be less than the best quality, hence will probably reflect poorly on the Fjord breed. So, a policy against crossbreeding can have precisely the wrong effect! Human nature being what it is, crossbreeding is going to happen. For example, I see a lot of Friesian-X horses advertized in the driving magazines, but I hear that at least some of the Friesian registries do not approve of crossbreeding. Folks just mutter under their breaths about stuffy, stuck-up breed snobs, and do what they want, anyway. I suspect that CFHA has recognized that rules against crossbreeding are unenforcable. Fences break; horses jump; and nature takes its course. You either have to punish all breeders whose Fjords act like horses, or you have to make exceptions every time someone says "it was an accident". IMHO, it is not NFHR's business to tell any other country how to run its registry. Putting "sanctions" on another country's registry is just going to get us in trouble in the international Fjord community. I'm of the opinion that NFHR should be building bridges (for instance, re-uniting the breed within the US), not burning them Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Gelding wanted/boomproof?
This message is from: "Reena G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Glad you replied to this issue Lynda There is really no 'bombproof' horse, Fjord or otherwise and if anyone tells you so...? I think they're alot that don't spook at most things but to Expect them to NEVER spook, well I don't think it happensor if it ever does, it's a rare case indeed. I think it's good to look for a horse that isn't spooky and is trail safe, but remember, someone elses trail safe, may not in all reality be YOUR idea of trail safe. Good luck on your search and I do believe that it is wise for you to look close to home so you can do a trial ride on him Reena This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I know you are looking for a "bombproof" horse as you say you are a timid rider. Lynda and Daniel
Re: Update on Fjord Gelding Wanted
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Linda, We currently do not know of anyone around us with a trained gelding for sale. I know you are looking for a "bombproof" horse as you say you are a timid rider. Are you either taking, or considering taking, riding classes to assist with this? I am asking because regardless how "bombproof" a horse is, it would be unreasonable to expect them to never spook at something throughout their years. I would hate to see you be expecting too much from your new Fjord, considering you have said you have already gone through a few horses over the last four years. Lynda and Daniel Bailey's Norwegian Fjords Quality Fjords--Equine Transportation--Hand-braided Tack & Accessories White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/
Update on Fjord Gelding Wanted
This message is from: "Linda Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> After posting my last message to the Fjord digest concerning the purchase of a Fjord gelding, I forgot to mention that it is desired to seek this gelding in WI or the surrounding states. The reason is that it is necessary for a trial ride before buying. Thanks
Fjord Gelding wanted
This message is from: "Linda Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi everyone, I'm currently in the market to purchase a Fjord gelding. Here are the specifics of what I'm looking for: a.. Age - 6 to 12 b.. Gelding (no exceptions) c.. Disciplines: (first preference: trail riding Second preference: intro dressage d.. Height: 14 to 14.1 (My height is 4'10" so I need a smaller horse) e.. Build of horse (medium). Do not prefer drafty or lighter versions. f.. Horse that has done extensive trail riding. g.. Does not spook. h.. Good for farrier, loads easily, clips and bathes. If anyone knows of a Fjord that has these specifics please contact me via email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you.
Re: crossbreeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Janet, > The latter fear is more reasonable, but probably unnecessary for the Fjord > breed, as the purebred Fjord offers such unique features in the horse > world, that no crossbred is likely to > Have you looked at the pictures of the three rescued Fjord youngsters? One of them is reputed to be a crossbreed. Once her mane is recut, how many novice Fjord people would be able to tell the difference? The problem with crossbreeding Fjords is oftentimes, the result DOES retain many of the unique characteristics of the purebred Fjord. I personally have been emailed and called by various people looking at a Fjord and seeking advice. After receiving pictures, I have said...you know, this looks like a crossbreed. As a matter of fact, I have a picture of a gelding that is/was being sold in MT as a purebred that I was going to forward to Mike May for his opinion, for I am convinced this one is a cross, too. Again, another person looking for their first Fjord. Jan from FoalQuest told me point blank that placing Fjord crosses is difficult, for sometimes their temperament is lacking. So, my question still stands, why should we as NFHR members condone the CFHA's practice of allowing inbreeding and crossbreeding? People know that the most valuable Fjord in NA is either an import or is registered through the NFHR. As we share a continent, this question is important for we as NFHR members will feel the effects of crossbreeding eventually. Ignoring the problem will not make it go away. All we are doing is closing our eyes to the problem, in my opinion. Lynda C. Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vice President, Norwegian Fjord Representative For donations to save a Fjord, please visit PayPal.com and enter [EMAIL PROTECTED] United Equine Foundation http://www.unitedequinefoundation.org/homepage.htm Lynda and Daniel Bailey's Norwegian Fjords Quality Fjords--Equine Transportation--Hand-braided Tack & Accessories White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/
Re: crossbreeding
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 12/26/02 3:59:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > The people most threatened > by the concept either do not understand genetics completely (think > crossbreeding produces monsters or somehow changes the purebred parent), or > are worried their breeding stock will be devalued by cheaper crossbreds. Hi Janet- Actually crossed breeds are much healthier, often taking the best of both parents. All my pets are "mutts," but of course I didn't breed them myself. God knows I've never had to go out looking for an animal ;-) As far as devaluing the pure breeds, this is unlikely. Folks who want a using or grade horse will buy one and worry little about breeding. Regarding price, if you've checked the equine sale boards lately, there are quite a few cross breeds for quite large prices! Also, purchasing a horse at auction is risky. You may save $, or you may buy a lame animal. So auctions are not for everyone. My personal concern was not any of the above, but overpopulation of domestic animals. Why make more when we already have so many in need of homes? Brigid M Wasson San Francisco Bay Area, CA http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Our http://ourfjords.freeservers.com/fjord1/Our_Fjordsx.html";>Fjords http://www.ourfjords.freeservers.com/fw/Fjordings_Wesx.html";>Fjordings West / )__~ /L /L
Re: crossbreeding and registries
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Janet, > what a great way to shoot ourselves in the foot. One of the greatest > dangers to any minor breed is a limited gene pool, why would the NFHR want > to further > limit the gene pool over something as simple as policy? Maybe you misunderstood my request. This has nothing to do with limited gene pool although frankly, from my understanding based off of past conversations we actually have a pretty diverse gene pool currently due to quite a few farms importing in Fjords. Also, we have quite a few cross-registered CFHA Fjords. I do not see this as shooting ourselves in the foot, nor do I see the problem of the CFHA allowing crossbreeding and inbreeding as "simple policy". If there are good purebred horses in the CFHA the NFHR would do far more harm to > the fjord breed to exclude them. With the DNA and microchipping policies > in the NFHR, you are very safe from any threat some crossbreds can produce. > I never said crossbreeds could be registered, nor have I implied crossbreeds could be "snuck in". However, as we accept CFHA horses, if they pass our rules, to be cross-registered into the NFHR, we are in fact condoning the rest of the CFHA's policies. This is what I have an issue with and what I am asking about. Lynda C. Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vice President, Norwegian Fjord Representative For donations to save a Fjord, please visit PayPal.com and enter [EMAIL PROTECTED] United Equine Foundation http://www.unitedequinefoundation.org/homepage.htm Lynda and Daniel Bailey's Norwegian Fjords Quality Fjords--Equine Transportation--Hand-braided Tack & Accessories White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/
Re: Greetings
This message is from: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Question? What is the "correct" head set for > fjords ridden hunt seat? All horses ridden in huntseat equitation, hunter under saddle, and all hunter classes should be ridden "on-the-bit" with light contact. This means direct contact with the bit and the front of the horse's head almost perpendicular with the ground with the bend at the poll. The horse should also be engaged from the hindquarters and not on the forehand. Now for the real world answer. Most judges will give a break to younger riders and horses. In this case, those that do it right will be given extra points and/or most likely to place in the class. A difference of opinion occurs over the definition of "light contact." Some people think that this means that the reins should be loose and sag slightly to the bit. Loose reins does show light contact, but the rider has less control over the horse. I hope this answers your question. Since hunter classes are judged subjectively, there are a lot of different opinions about how the classes should be ridden and judged. Have a happy and prosperous New Year!! Curt Pierce Bristow, VA PS. Our Fjords had a mostly white Christmas. The first one for this area in thirty years.
crossbreeding
This message is from: "Debby Stai" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Janet said: "The people most threatened by the concept either do not understand genetics completely (think crossbreeding produces monsters or somehow changes the purebred parent), or are worried their breeding stock will be devalued by cheaper crossbreds." I fit neither of these scenerios, I'm very much in agreement with strict guidelines within a registry, all registries. There are just too many people out there breeding, too many horses going to auctions, to slaughterhouses. I agree with what one lister said earlier, there are enough variations within the fjord breed and if you can't find it there, then look elsewhere but dont' try to change what is a pure to satisfy your personal needs. I think that I now understand why fjord breeders/owners are careful when placing their youngsters, especially young fillies and colts. It is a HUGE responsibility to be a breeder, one that too many take too lightly. It becomes a game, "lets see what this cross with this cross will make". And thats how we end up with horses loaded in trailers headed for slaughter. Debby
Re: crossbreeding
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Nonetheless, I think there is a lot of hyper phobia about crossbreeding on this list > Janet McNally = Count me among them. If the Norwegian Fjord breed had NOT been carefully guarded and regulated over these many years long and if there had always been unchecked mixing with other breeds, would we NOW even have a decent representation of what makes a Fjord the unique and wonderful animal they are? It's distressing for me to even imagine such a hypothetical catastrophe. Fjord lovers have been entrusted with their sacred heritage (a national treasure!) and are obligated to never let our guard down against dilution and detraction of this rare and precious breed that simply cannot be improved upon. Ruthie, nw mt
crossbreeding
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> why would someone crossbreed with a fjord? The best reason I could see doing this is if you already own another draft breed, and want to size it down. The draft breeds today are such huge giants they are not really practical using horses imo. The half breds would still be large horses but not the giants that todays percherons and many belgians are. So someone wanting something bigger than a Fjord, but smaller than a 18 hand draft might want to crossbreed. The policy of the NFHR assures that stallions in other breeds get the business instead of Fjord stallion owners. Personally I felt the Fjord was 'just the right size' and 'just the right temperment' so I purchased purebreds and have no motive to produce crossbreds. Nonetheless, I think there is a lot of hyper phobia about crossbreeding on this list. The DNA and microchiping policies of the NFHR safeguard the Fjord breed from the possiblity of non Fjord breeds from creeping into the gene pool. It has been my observation that much of the phobia expressed here about crossbreeding mirrors similiar unfounded discussion in dog circles. The people most threatened by the concept either do not understand genetics completely (think crossbreeding produces monsters or somehow changes the purebred parent), or are worried their breeding stock will be devalued by cheaper crossbreds. The latter fear is more reasonable, but probably unnecessary for the Fjord breed, as the purebred Fjord offers such unique features in the horse world, that no crossbred is likely to ever provide significant competition. Janet W McNally
crossbreeding and registries
This message is from: Janet McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I hope I am making some sense here in what I am trying to say. I would think the only way we in the US can make it clear to the CFHA that we do NOT condone crossbreeding or inbreeding is by not allowing ANY of their Fjords, regardless if they comply or not, to be registered into the NFHR until they change their polices. Lynda C. Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vice President, Norwegian Fjord Representative Lynda, what a great way to shoot ourselves in the foot. One of the greatest dangers to any minor breed is a limited gene pool, why would the NFHR want to further limit the gene pool over something as simple as policy? If there are good purebred horses in the CFHA the NFHR would do far more harm to the fjord breed to exclude them. With the DNA and microchipping policies in the NFHR, you are very safe from any threat some crossbreds can produce. Janet W McNally
