Re: Advanced English Test Bits
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Genie, (and Lori and Valerie and DeAnna and anyone else i may have annoyed/offended) I am very sorry if my postings yesterday were percieved as being 'hostile'. I might explain that i had foot surgery very recently and I know it's not an excuse in itself, but I am feeling less than optimum; I am fairly passionate about my horses + riding + keeping them happy with their jobs, and when I feel or see something off-kilter that could use some straightening or warrants re-visting, i kinda get into it. So sorry...It's not my intent to knock the Holy Grail of dressage off of its pedestal! i love dressage, and if I had the right horse and all the time, I would be back at it again, but I know what focus + dedication it takes, and it's just not in me to ride' pure dressage' as i would not do it justice - but i applaud those of you who do, and share in your passion. Where I had hoped I was heading in my comments before p-ssi-g you all off was that we need to take a hard look at the ridden evals. Are these abbreviated microcosms (sp) of dressage or are they just inclusive riding tests, whereby the hunt seat or pleasure rider can present their horse under saddle alongside w/ the trail rider who uses English tack, along w/ the dressage rider, etc... Like I said in an earlier post, I did participate on the Eval. comm. early on and did alot of the diagrams and helped in the structure of some of the tests, in particular the utility tests. In my minds eye, I never envisioned the execution of these tests to be in purely a dressage vein, but rather to serve as an umbrella under which riders of the different English disciplines could present their horses in English tack and execute the test. At the time it never occured to me to allow the use of Kimberwick's for Intro or Pelhams for Advanced tests...but since Ardeth and Pat have brought it up, it does make sense to me to allow them. Today I re-read the equipment directives for the Western tests, and did find that there is a disparate in-balance in what category of bits are allowed for English vs Western testing. In the Intro Western test, either a snaffle or bosal can be used, and if the horse is over 5, one also has the option of using a curb bit, in an Intro test! There is no such parallel in the English Intro vs the Adv. test; as we all know, only curb bits are allowed in the Adv. Western tests. I need to ask this: I get the sense that those of you who are upset about the idea of using a Kimberwick or Pelham feel so because you might think it gives the horse using it an unfair advantage over your horse? Are we competing, or are we presenting our horses? Or is it because you feel it lowers the standard? Or encourages shortcuts, and/or poor training? Here is a statement taken from the NFHR Eval Guideleines pertaining to tests: The performance tests have been designed to reflect the various ways in which the Fjord horse is used in North America. The patterns for the tests have been adapted from standard patterns that are regularly used in the various disciplines of English or Western riding... The above makes it pretty clear to me that the English tests are not intended to be looked upon and scored as dressage tests, but rather an amalgamation of English disciplines. Yes? No? Before I get going, I wanted to mention a couple of things: Genie, i do use a Myler comfort snaffle (an equivilant snaffle mouthpiece can be found in a a Billy Allen 'western' snaffle bit too). The Myler is a great bit, and i might even try one w/ more of a port for more tongue relief. we'll see what Ebay will bring forth!Valerie, i use the comfort snaffle as my mare totally dislikes the nutcracker action of a reg. snaffle; you mentioned a snaffle does not have leverage, however I disagree: pressure is what is exerted on the horses tongue and bars. Leverage creates pressure. Also, re. WB's they can have very long necks and have thier own issues + evasions, just as w/ fjords we have issues w/ short strong necks. I think a Pelham should not be used w/ connectors because it radically changes the purpose of the bit. Ardeth and Pat, since you two brought this up, do you have any comments or addtions to the discussion? nite all. Kmac PS: Here is a very good article about the bosal, its history,philosophy and correct use, written by Gwynn Turnbull Weaver (she is the founder of The Californio's ranch rodeo + stock horse contest). When you get to the page, scroll down it is the 2nd story on the page: http://www.thecalifornios.com/Newsletter.stm enjoy. Karen McCarthyGreat Basin Fjords :: Carson City, Nevadahttp://www.picturetrail.com/weegees
Re: Advanced English Test Bits
This message is from: Genie Dethloff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karen, Thanks for your post. I'm sorry to hear that you had to undergo foot surgery and I hope your foot is healing well. I just started some medication that makes me very tired and will shortly make me very pissy so I too am having trouble with my attitude this week- even riding doesn't energize me this week. I think we've all brought up some good comments and questions and they have gotten to the Evaluation committee so they will visit the issues. -- Genie Dethloff Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: Advanced English Test Bits
This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I ask what are your tricks with a good stop on the snaffle for a horse under saddle. Hi Bonnie, I teach them to stop or come back when I sit a little heavier and close my upper thigh muscles a bit. If you do this everytime just before / during your use of a rein aid to come back, most horses will put 2 and 2 together, feel the seat and do it from the seat alone. Don't clench your thighs and hold on, as that will lift you from the saddle. Do it like a half-halt, close / release, enough times to get a reaction. The horse would rather you didn't take back on the bit, even a mild one, and will learn to stop from your seat alone. As for pulling them to a stop, don't pull steady on them, they can brace against that forever, use a take and give and insist on a reaction to a light aid, they can do it. If they can feel a fly on their skin they can sure as heck feel you. Jane Savoie has a good discussion on this principle in her book Cross train your horse (basic dressage for every horse, every sport). Lori
Re: Advanced English Test Bits
This message is from: Genie Dethloff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Karen, I'm sorry that my response made you so hostile. I am not a dressage snob, but that is the riding I choose to do for my own rewards and I am not very accomplished at that. I board at a mixed barn and have friends that ride western and have wonderfully trained horses that go in ported bits, but they do not ride with continual contact and their bit and/or curb are not engaged all the time, just the short times that they need it. We also have hunt seat riders using all kinds of snaffles and Kimberwickes bits. Most of them do not ride in the frame that seems to be preferred for the NFHR english test which is based on a dressage test. In the NFHR test the horse is judged on flexion, bend, roundness of back and acceptance of the bit (copied from the scoresheet). As I remember when a very good fjord trainer rode a stallion in the intro english test the judges marked the stallion down on acceptance of the bit. The trainer had him beautifully accepting of the bit as in not resisting and responding very well, but he was not as fully on the bit as they wanted. It seemed that the judges were looking for the same things as a dressage judge looks for in training and first level tests. I think some low ported bits that allow tongue room are very kind; actually many snaffles are now coming in curved versions to relieve tongue pressure and follow the contours of the horses mouth better. In response to Amy's quest for a low ported eggbutt, try Myler bits. I think bits with curbs, for english riding where contact is required (versus pleasure riding) is fine with double reins so that the curb is not engaged all the time. If pelham bits are used, I personally feel they also are best with double reins as they were designed so as to have separate snaffle and curb effects, not with one rein on the bottom ring. When dressage riders use a double bridle, the ported curb bit is not engaged all the time but the snaffle bit is. Also I am not sure what people are proposing should be acceptable bits: Any curb bit, Any Kimberwick, any Pelham, how large of a port - just relieving tongue pressure or action on the roof of the mouth, how long a leverage arm, where should the reins be attached, should there be one rein or two, are rein converters to go from two reins to one rein allowed? As far as letting the judges decide who is not riding well in their bits, that is fine. I think riders would appreciate getting proper guidance in how they should train their horses to be successful in the evaluation rather than being excused from the ring. If NFHR wants horses that go in any english frame and only require that the horse not resist the bit, then we should rewrite the test to make that clear. If you watch Morgan hunt seat classes, the horses look very different than in an open breed hunt seat class and that breed club has decided that is acceptable. If the standard is comparable to a training level (intro english) or first level (advanced english) dressage test (plus trail and jumping) then that is how the horses need to be trained and acceptance of the bit means on the bit with contact. If the test is for the average person who rides frequently to be able to do well and the standard is not the same as in the dressage test, then the guidelines and rules need to make that clear. I know our evaluation is different in that the evaluators try not to penalize the horse for riders mistakes, if the horse demonstrates what the evaluators are looking for. As for the Spanish riding school - anyone who has their skill and training (two years on the lungeline exclusively to develop a great seat and hands) and who is expecting such elevation and collection from their highly trained horses, can use a stronger bit much more successfully than most of us can. This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Genie, have you thought at all that there might be riders out there that for whatever reason use a mild curb bit to ride their horse in English tack, and KNOW how to use one? By your reasoning I suppose we should not allow ANY curb bits, for ANY of the NFHR tests as they brutalize the horses mouth. Pshaw! Go tell that to the Spanish Riding School, ok? It ALL signal: if you are reefing on a horse's mouthÝw/ a snaffle, IMO this is just as disgusting as reefing on a horses mouth w/ a curb and one s/b given low marks or even excused from the arena (and told why). let's do provide reasonable, useable and realistic guidlines in bitting, but let'sÝallowÝthe judges decide which horse is going correctly, OK? Not you, not I. if someone thinks they will get better marks by using a curb bit and then not use it correctly, or overbit the horse, let the judges mark them accordingly. Sorry Genie, but I do tend toÝget really riled up about this issue of bit abuse; as a former 'just English'
Advanced English Test Bits
This message is from: Olivia Farm, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello from Olivia Farm, I just wanted to point out that the Advanced English test is based on a First Level dressage test. While this is not extremely advanced as dressage goes, it does require some further training, which is what is written in the test description. In a first level test, you are only allowed a snaffle bit. Although Fjords are strong I find that correct dressage training enables fairly easy riding in a snaffle bit. I do have some horses that go better in a curb - but those are horses who are accustomed to it and haven't had what I consider proper dressage training. Every horse that I start in a snaffle continues to go well in a snaffle. This includes My Stallion, Peppertree's Christian! I know it doesn't seem fair - and perhaps since the test in English and not Dressage the bit requirements should be looked into. But we have to remember that Western and English are looking for different things. Western wants no contact, English and Dressage requires contact. I find contact with a curb to be harsh until the training is so far along that the lightest bit of pressure makes the horse respond and the horse can basically go in self carriage (as in third level and above Dressage). There are even many driving trainers who prefer to drive in snaffles, but understand that in driving you have limited aids and safety and control are the biggest concerns. If anyone thinks that fjords can't possibly go well in a snaffle, they only need to look at the number of fjords that have completed and passed their intro or advanced English tests or are competing successfully at lower level dressage (or upper level for that matter, they all had to start off with a snaffle!). Just because it is easier to train in a curb, doesn't mean that it is better training for the horse. Solveig Watanabe Olivia Farm www.oliviafarm.com
Re: Advanced English Test Bits
This message is from: Genie Dethloff [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree with Solveig and Lori. There are varying degrees of severity in snaffle bits all the way to a Dr Bristals which is allowed (luckily no twisted wires are allowed). When ever you add leverage to a bit you are changing the dynamics to a harsher bit. Many people like the Kimberwicks with the broken snaffle mouth or the same in a Tom Thumb. As soon as you add leverage by putting the rein in a lower slot, you no longer have a snaffle and no longer have a direct contact bit. I have spent a long time with my fjord trying to train him to truly reach into the contact and have changed bits three times to go to a milder bit each time, the idea being take away the resistance and allow the horse to accept the communication you are trying to build. It is only with lack of pain that a horse can honestly accept and reach for contact. My big guy could run through any of these bits, but is losing the desire to avoid or ignore the bit. The more I develop steady clear hands, the better he gets - he trusts me and the bit now. I would be concerned that people who feel they need to use ported or leverage bits would be ones who have the most tendency to hurt the horse. The exception to this is in higher level dressage where the ported bit is a second bit for refined communication as Solveig mentioned. I really respect the fact that Eventing has a dressage phase where the horse has to demonstrate that he can go in self carriage in a snaffle bit irrespective of the bit used for cross country or jumping. It can be painfully slow to retrain a horse, especially if strong or disrespectful, or if he is used to being set in a frame with devices, to go well in a snaffle but in the end it is worth it. The key is moving the horse from being controlled by the hands, reins and bit to being controlled by the seat, body and legs. When your horse responds to your body cues, your horse responds to the bit for refinement and additional instructions. The best aid I have developed is stronger abdominal muscles, so I can hold with my body not my arms. I think we do the breed a service by retaining the current bit restrictions for advanced English; it helps make us better trainers. ello from Olivia Farm, I just wanted to point out that the Advanced English test is based on a First Level dressage test. While this is not extremely advanced as dressage goes, it does require some further training, which is what is written in the test description. In a first level test, you are only allowed a snaffle bit. Although Fjords are strong I find that correct dressage training enables fairly easy riding in a snaffle bit. I do have some horses that go better in a curb - but those are horses who are accustomed to it and haven't had what I consider proper dressage training. Every horse that I start in a snaffle continues to go well in a snaffle. This includes My Stallion, Peppertree's Christian! I know it doesn't seem fair - and perhaps since the test in English and not Dressage the bit requirements should be looked into. But we have to remember that Western and English are looking for different things. Western wants no contact, English and Dressage requires contact. I find contact with a curb to be harsh until the training is so far along that the lightest bit of pressure makes the horse respond and the horse can basically go in self carriage (as in third level and above Dressage). There are even many driving trainers who prefer to drive in snaffles, but understand that in driving you have limited aids and safety and control are the biggest concerns. If anyone thinks that fjords can't possibly go well in a snaffle, they only need to look at the number of fjords that have completed and passed their intro or advanced English tests or are competing successfully at lower level dressage (or upper level for that matter, they all had to start off with a snaffle!). Just because it is easier to train in a curb, doesn't mean that it is better training for the horse. Solveig Watanabe Olivia Farm www.oliviafarm.com -- Genie Dethloff Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: Advanced English Test Bits
This message is from: Karen McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Genie, have you thought at all that there might be riders out there that for whatever reason use a mild curb bit to ride their horse in English tack, and KNOW how to use one? By your reasoning I suppose we should not allow ANY curb bits, for ANY of the NFHR tests as they brutalize the horses mouth. Pshaw! Go tell that to the Spanish Riding School, ok? It ALL signal: if you are reefing on a horse's mouth w/ a snaffle, IMO this is just as disgusting as reefing on a horses mouth w/ a curb and one s/b given low marks or even excused from the arena (and told why). let's do provide reasonable, useable and realistic guidlines in bitting, but let's allow the judges decide which horse is going correctly, OK? Not you, not I. if someone thinks they will get better marks by using a curb bit and then not use it correctly, or overbit the horse, let the judges mark them accordingly. Sorry Genie, but I do tend to get really riled up about this issue of bit abuse; as a former 'just English' rider (eventing + dressage) i too had this mindset. Getting into western riding, and working with some terrific horsepersons who have ridden western their whole lives, I have seen the other side so to speak. Just for scale, one season I won 2 Open fjord trail classes (Libby + Turlock) w/ a 4 year old mare in a bosal, besting horses packing snaffles as well as curb bits. Whatever works...the judges all commented on how happy and focused she was in her work. i think i could have ridden her w/ a kitchen mop in her mouth and she'sd still 'get it' and not go 'through it' ...:~) Karen McCarthyGreat Basin Fjords :: Carson City, Nevadahttp://www.picturetrail.com/weegees From: Genie Dethloff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Re: Advanced English Test Bits Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 16:31:42 -0400 This message is from: Genie Dethloff [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree with Solveig and Lori. There are varying degrees of severity in snaffle bits all the way to a Dr Bristals which is allowed (luckily no twisted wires are allowed). When ever you add leverage to a bit you are changing the dynamics to a harsher bit. Many people like the Kimberwicks with the broken snaffle mouth or the same in a Tom Thumb. As soon as you add leverage by putting the rein in a lower slot, you no longer have a snaffle and no longer have a direct contact bit. I have spent a long time with my fjord trying to train him to truly reach into the contact and have changed bits three times to go to a milder bit each time, the idea being take away the resistance and allow the horse to accept the communication you are trying to build. It is only with lack of pain that a horse can honestly accept and reach for contact. My big guy could run through any of these bits, but is losing the desire to avoid or ignore the bit. The more I develop steady clear hands, the better he gets - he trusts me and the bit now. I would be concerned that people who feel they need to use ported or leverage bits would be ones who have the most tendency to hurt the horse. The exception to this is in higher level dressage where the ported bit is a second bit for refined communication as Solveig mentioned. I really respect the fact that Eventing has a dressage phase where the horse has to demonstrate that he can go in self carriage in a snaffle bit irrespective of the bit used for cross country or jumping. It can be painfully slow to retrain a horse, especially if strong or disrespectful, or if he is used to being set in a frame with devices, to go well in a snaffle but in the end it is worth it. The key is moving the horse from being controlled by the hands, reins and bit to being controlled by the seat, body and legs. When your horse responds to your body cues, your horse responds to the bit for refinement and additional instructions. The best aid I have developed is stronger abdominal muscles, so I can hold with my body not my arms. I think we do the breed a service by retaining the current bit restrictions for advanced English; it helps make us better trainers. ello from Olivia Farm, I just wanted to point out that the Advanced English test is based on a First Level dressage test. While this is not extremely advanced as dressage goes, it does require some further training, which is what is written in the test description. In a first level test, you are only allowed a snaffle bit. Although Fjords are strong I find that correct dressage training enables fairly easy riding in a snaffle bit. I do have some horses that go better in a curb - but those are horses who are accustomed to it and haven't had what I consider proper dressage training. Every horse that I start in a snaffle continues to go well in a snaffle
Re: Advanced English Test Bits
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello all I am a trainer and have been ridding dressage and training for many years. I have been training Fjords for the past 2 years.I agree with you about everything can be done beautifully with a snaffle. However I find it very difficult to get a true stop and maintain any sort of (beatifully piosed hand and body) In other words pulling the crapp out of them. Which is not the purpose of dressage.I have great success with the stop as long as leverage is available. And yes there are a few individuals in the breed that co-operate due to better conformation for riding. I ask what are your tricks with a good stop on the snaffle for a horse under saddle. And please no more cirlces or figures. I am already dizzy :))) And yes it is not a problem to stop them with driving lines and snaffle. Of course you have a lot of leverage again. And they are wonderful cart horses and excel there. Thanks Bonnie
