Re: The canter and being greenbroke (was Re: Prejudice against Fjords??)
This message is from: Reena Giola [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lori, I just wanted to say you wrote a very well thoughtout 'article'reply, whatever you want to call it. I enjoyed reading it and didn't feel that it was 'ranting' at all. I agree very much with what you said. I am just starting my 'pre-lim' search for another horse but am so wary of getting sucked in and ending up with a horse that is more then I can handle or isn't what I thought he/she would be! I think this thread has been very enlightening to me and has given me some new perspective on things...more things to consider :-) There are just so very many levels of greenbroke to trained...handling issues, temperament, rider abilities, the list goes on and on. I checked out your website! Beautiful!! and I love the one guy you have for sale at the moment!! he is gorgeous!!! Reena - Original Message - From: Lori Albrough To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 1:28 PM Subject: The canter and being greenbroke (was Re: Prejudice against Fjords??) This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Genie Dethloff wrote: I have a friend, whose opinion I trust, that thinks that it is wrong to wait, especially since canter is not their preferred gait. January 2005 Dressage Today magazine had an article called Closing the Gap with the tagline: When will North-American bred have the same cachet as imported from Europe. The article is geared towards sporthorse (warmblood) breeding and training, however I think this quote by Scott Hassler has relevance to the current discussion on the Fjord list. He says Our good horses are not given the chance to compete against Europe's good horses because of the training. It's that simple. We need to get our young horses ridden better. In particular, Hassler says Our young horses are not ridden in a way that is safe, competent, or marketable. We see them in a very hunter-style frame (strung out). They don't canter for the first time for six or eight months. This statement pretty much sums up the prevailing state of Fjord horse training too -- where we see horses who have no concept of contact, or giving to the bit, or moving off the leg, and who have been under saddle for months and months and even years without cantering. These horses amazingly are being marketed as riding horses. We see mature fjord horses being sold as riding horses with just learning his leads in the fine print - yet the word greenbroke never appears. We see horses marketed as ride/drive who don't canter and never have - just trot faster, Faster, FASTER! A riding horse must canter, he must canter on the aid, he must canter on the correct lead (99% of the time, mistakes can happen) and he must canter in a reasonably balanced, reasonably round frame. Or he ain't a riding horse. I've heard people say we haven't cantered him yet because he's not mature skeletally - my question is, if he's not sufficiently mature skeletally, then what are you doing on his back?? So many horses are backed young to get them sold but the education seems to not proceed in an orderly fashion. They end up ridden for years before the canter is introduced and at that point it can come as quite a shock. I bought one of these horses who was ridden walk/trot only for a long time, and it took three very determined people and two lunge whips to convince her that she could and she would canter under tack. From there she did beautifully but I think it is kinder and makes more sense to let the horse grow up to say 3.5 or 4 years old, start him under tack and then teach him what he needs to know: walk trot AND canter. Take your time, of course, but don't waste time. In Reiner Klimke's book Basic Training of the Young Horse in the section At what age is a horse ready to be ridden? he states that a warmblood horse (and I think Fjords mature similarly to warmbloods) should not be ridden before 3.5 yrs and talks about some of his Olympic mounts and what age they were backed: Winzerin (4 yrs), Aracadius (4 yrs), Fabiola (3.5 yrs), Ahlerich (4 yrs). He says I am convinced that had I started these horses earlier I would not have been so successful. In other words, he was not successful IN SPITE of the late start, but successful BECAUSE of it. This is not a viewpoint you will hear often (in fact Scott Hassler quoted above is in favor of starting them before they are three years old). My own coach comes from a European background and over the years her methods have become my methods. All my horses, which are started under saddle at either 3.5 or 4 years, canter under saddle from the very beginning of the training. Depending on the individual horse, it will be somewhere between the 3rd to the 10th time they have a rider on their back. Each session from then on, they will work in walk trot and canter for short daily rides
The canter and being greenbroke (was Re: Prejudice against Fjords??)
This message is from: Lori Albrough [EMAIL PROTECTED] Genie Dethloff wrote: I have a friend, whose opinion I trust, that thinks that it is wrong to wait, especially since canter is not their preferred gait. January 2005 Dressage Today magazine had an article called Closing the Gap with the tagline: When will North-American bred have the same cachet as imported from Europe. The article is geared towards sporthorse (warmblood) breeding and training, however I think this quote by Scott Hassler has relevance to the current discussion on the Fjord list. He says Our good horses are not given the chance to compete against Europe's good horses because of the training. It's that simple. We need to get our young horses ridden better. In particular, Hassler says Our young horses are not ridden in a way that is safe, competent, or marketable. We see them in a very hunter-style frame (strung out). They don't canter for the first time for six or eight months. This statement pretty much sums up the prevailing state of Fjord horse training too -- where we see horses who have no concept of contact, or giving to the bit, or moving off the leg, and who have been under saddle for months and months and even years without cantering. These horses amazingly are being marketed as riding horses. We see mature fjord horses being sold as riding horses with just learning his leads in the fine print - yet the word greenbroke never appears. We see horses marketed as ride/drive who don't canter and never have - just trot faster, Faster, FASTER! A riding horse must canter, he must canter on the aid, he must canter on the correct lead (99% of the time, mistakes can happen) and he must canter in a reasonably balanced, reasonably round frame. Or he ain't a riding horse. I've heard people say we haven't cantered him yet because he's not mature skeletally - my question is, if he's not sufficiently mature skeletally, then what are you doing on his back?? So many horses are backed young to get them sold but the education seems to not proceed in an orderly fashion. They end up ridden for years before the canter is introduced and at that point it can come as quite a shock. I bought one of these horses who was ridden walk/trot only for a long time, and it took three very determined people and two lunge whips to convince her that she could and she would canter under tack. From there she did beautifully but I think it is kinder and makes more sense to let the horse grow up to say 3.5 or 4 years old, start him under tack and then teach him what he needs to know: walk trot AND canter. Take your time, of course, but don't waste time. In Reiner Klimke's book Basic Training of the Young Horse in the section At what age is a horse ready to be ridden? he states that a warmblood horse (and I think Fjords mature similarly to warmbloods) should not be ridden before 3.5 yrs and talks about some of his Olympic mounts and what age they were backed: Winzerin (4 yrs), Aracadius (4 yrs), Fabiola (3.5 yrs), Ahlerich (4 yrs). He says I am convinced that had I started these horses earlier I would not have been so successful. In other words, he was not successful IN SPITE of the late start, but successful BECAUSE of it. This is not a viewpoint you will hear often (in fact Scott Hassler quoted above is in favor of starting them before they are three years old). My own coach comes from a European background and over the years her methods have become my methods. All my horses, which are started under saddle at either 3.5 or 4 years, canter under saddle from the very beginning of the training. Depending on the individual horse, it will be somewhere between the 3rd to the 10th time they have a rider on their back. Each session from then on, they will work in walk trot and canter for short daily rides of 15 to 20 minutes, walk trot and canter both ways. There is nothing mysterious about cantering, but if we don't TRAIN IT, how are our Fjordhorses supposed to have first the knowledge and second the strength required to DO IT in a correct balanced fashion? Dismounting my soapbox and cantering off. Lori Lori Albrough Bluebird Lane Fjords Moorefield Ontario http://www.bluebirdlane.com
RE: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: Laura Kranzusch [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: nicole hartman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just an addition to the fjord conversation,and also the canter issue, as for people being Prejudice you'll have that every time you do or have anything Different.The Fjord is a very unique horse in a lot of ways and most people hate change also with the Fjords color people become jealous.It happens, kill them with kindness and talent show them just how versatile these horses are.. Excellent post! I agree, and I do that very same thing (killing them with kindness). It drives (snotty) people crazy:) Laura
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: bolinsj [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just had to jump into the 'canter' discussion. My pony, Kilar, is mostly driven, but we ride now and then. He is very heavy on the forehand when we ride. Until we get to the canter.! Then - he lifts his front end and just uses that great butt of his to 'float' at the canter. And turn !! On a dime. He hasn't got much of a hand gallop :-) but boy that canter is nice! Especially since his trot is so heavy under saddle. Martie in MD jgayle wrote: This message is from: jgayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Laura I had a lovely (first Fjord for me) Fjord who had a great trot and walk, but the canter was another thing. I did not really care as I just used him for trail at my age had pretty much stopped the CANTER. Even with professional help he was a nervous wreck at the canter. It would take at least fifteen minutes of work and then he might trip. He was narrow in the front, more of a slender boy and finally in a fall someone saw the front leg hitting the opposite knee. I never had the problem once in the canter as I kept him on the bit balanced. Also my shoer helped with the front balance. Jean G. Author 'The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: Amy Goodloe [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 6:12 PM -0500 3/11/05, Genie Dethloff wrote: Anyone have feedback for me on when to start the canter training. I don't have any general advice, just a personal experience. I don't honestly know if my Fjord mare had ever cantered under saddle before I asked her to, but I suspect she had, just probably out on the trails and not in an arena setting. Her canter is comfortable but fast. At times it can be really fast, despite my best efforts to rebalance her, so that tells me that we probably need to keep working getting off the forehand at the trot (with only occasional short bits of canter work on a circle). A friend told me she could swear Belle was wearing a big ole grin as she cantered around, but that's not my impression of what's going on. I think she thinks she's supposed to fast, so I'm having to patiently explain the new rules around here. I can see the point about going ahead and cantering under saddle, just to show the horse what it feels like, but only if the situation is such that it will be good experience for the horse. And then you could go back to focusing on the trot. It seems like it takes a long time before they can build up the condition and balance to really work on the canter. --Amy -- ~~ Camairyn Farm ~*~ Loveland, CO http://www.goodhorse.com/camairyn ~~
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: jgayle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Laura I had a lovely (first Fjord for me) Fjord who had a great trot and walk, but the canter was another thing. I did not really care as I just used him for trail at my age had pretty much stopped the CANTER. Even with professional help he was a nervous wreck at the canter. It would take at least fifteen minutes of work and then he might trip. He was narrow in the front, more of a slender boy and finally in a fall someone saw the front leg hitting the opposite knee. I never had the problem once in the canter as I kept him on the bit balanced. Also my shoer helped with the front balance.Jean G. Author 'The Colonel's Daughter Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: Genie Dethloff [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Laura Kranzusch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sounds like fun. I aspire to that that with Bjorn. I have to ask, can your boy canter, and if so, is his canter collected? ... Now I am stiitng with a seperated shoulder, and mad at the fact that I may loose all the progress I had been making on him. Ick - sorry to hear about your shoulder! Did it actually dislocate? I've have a kneecap that used to dislocate and it was awful. Finne does not canter under saddle yet. He does it beautifully on his own in the fields. We tried starting him on the lunge line, but did not stick with it long as it was hard to keep him on the circle. My trainer takes it very slow and really doesn't want to work on canter yet. I have a friend, whose opinion I trust, that thinks that it is wrong to wait, especially since canter is not their preferred gait. She says also it would be better for my trainer to work on cantering under saddle before he might break into it with me and freak out because he hadn't done that under saddle. Anyone have feedback for me on when to start the canter training. Finne has been under saddle and in training for nine months. -- Genie Dethloff and Finne Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: Laura Kranzusch [EMAIL PROTECTED] The main exercise we do wiith my Fjord to help him slow down his own rhytm is do do precise small circles. He can do very precise and well balanced 10 and 8 meter circles at the walk and trot, with a nice bend (of course it takes alot of work on my part to get him there!). He can also do awsome turns on the forehand and sidepasses. He is big and more of the drafty build, but to see him cross his legs under himself is a beautiful sight, much better than my Morgan or Hanoverian did! Sounds like fun. I aspire to that that with Bjorn. I have to ask, can your boy canter, and if so, is his canter collected? Bjorn is also a more drafty looking Fjord, and he is having a tougher time collecting his canter. I have been working on his canter since early December (when he became mine officially). Unfortunately we experienced a set back this past Sunday... Bjorn was on the wrong lead, switched leads mid canter, and tripped. To make a long story short, I went over his head, and landed on my right shoulder. Now I am stiitng with a seperated shoulder, and mad at the fact that I may loose all the progress I had been making on him. I think the cute factor wins people over and then if they pay attention, they can see how versitile and talented the Fjords really are. Many people are even envious that I have a horse with good energy and work ethic, but who is not at all spooky or stupid. That's true They are cute! That's how Bjorn won me over:) -Laura Proud Mommy to North Creek Bjorn!
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: Laura Kranzusch [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Lisa Wiley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yeah what is that anyway. Many people I tell I have a fjord tell me they are stubborn. I have seen so little of this in the short time I have owned my mare. I guess we can just chalk it up to ignorance! To tell the truth, the prejudice I experience is maily from the snobby people at the barn (the ones who only ride warm bloods). Visitors to the barn just love the Fjords. I love taking them to parades, and I am always amazed at the positive reaction the Fjords get. -Laura Proud Mommy to North Creek Bjorn
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: Lori Lemley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Few people here in Little Rock know what Fjords are; most will ask if my mare is a big Shetland pony! But the reception is nearly always good. I've only had one person ask, Why a Fjord? with a bit of a sneer; she was on a flashy, black Peruvian Paso. Most folks just comment on her unique looks or how well behaved she is on the various trail rides and parades we do. Some folks ask if she's smooth (which she is), but those are mostly the gaited horse people. Can't say I've encountered much prejudice here! Lori Lemley Little Rock, Arkansas
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: Steve Sessoms [EMAIL PROTECTED] I fell in love with Fjords after seeing a magazine with a painting Gene Bauer's 4-in-hand and lovely carriage on the front and photos of Modellen and a couple of his daughters inside. So the breeds particular look caught my interest before I ever met one. I fell in love with their dear personalities at Brian Jacobsen's place while shopping for horses. If I had known then how much attention they would draw I probubly would have passed them by, but now I am certainly glad I didn't. I adore my Fjordies! Now I have breed prejudice! When I look at other breeds I wonder how they can balance on those little sticks for legs, they seem so tall they look to me like they could just topple over! And when I get on one of 'those other breeds' I quickly find myself thinking, This is not a Fjord! This is too strange! And I wonder how people mount such big creatures. And I liked what someone else said on the list long ago ... those people who say bad things about our breed, how many of them own or even know one well? Meredith Sessoms Moulton, Alabama USA ~Dorina, NFR Aagot and little Anjee ~
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I sure haven't had comments against a Fjord. In fact, I have had just the oppsite. Everywhere we ride and I meet other riders, they all stop and want to know about the Fjords. On the streets, the cars will stop and ask about them. Everybody comments on their unusual looks and wants to know about them. I have had nothing but positive, very positive,. comments on them. In fact, the only place I got a negative feedback, was back in Norway, on our farm there. They board harness horses there now, both coldblooded and warmblooded horses, - and they all commented on the Fjords being stubborn. Go figure Rondi Tyler. So. Calif.
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: Carol J. Makosky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gail Russell wrote: This message is from: Gail Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] My Fjords can do rollbacks on the fence just fine. And, yes, I have seen all kinds of prejudice against Fjords. Anyway, I was turning pretty tight circles with him, and I was told that Fjords can't turn that tight! In my experience, a horse will turn as tight as he wants to turn. Do any of you get the prejudice that I get for having a Fjord? It is completely ridicoulus! Only that they are short usually fat, yellow and sluggish. But I always say that they are too smart to waste energy if not needed. Plenty of my club members have seen my Heidi really step out and keep up with the best. The best compliment was how she just stood tied and never made a fuss over anything when away from home. -- Built Fjord Tough Carol M. On Golden Pond N. Wisconsin
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am currently in a barn with very down to earth people, many western, several dressage, all colors and breeds of horses and everyone loves Finne and thinks he is the cutest. I am very lucky, but I am no longer at a fancy dressage barn, which suits me just fine. I did take him to a 5 day dressage clinic and all the women with their hugh warmbloods or Andulsions liked him. I think the cute factor wins people over and then if they pay attention, they can see how versitile and talented the Fjords really are. Many people are even envious that I have a horse with good energy and work ethic, but who is not at all spooky or stupid. +++ The dressage barn where I trailer to lessons has a lot of Andies and Lippizans. My fjords really get fawned over. The trainers are some of the finest dressage trainers in the country, and Juniper was paid the ultimate compliment by one of them a couple weeks back. When I mentioned that her daughter, Holly is much more talented, but I love riding Juniper so much, she looked into my horse's eyes and told me that she really wished she had a horse like Juniper to give beginner's longe line lessons on. Juniper LOVES going to that barn because she is always told how cute and sweet she is, and they always have a treat or two for her. Pamela Northern Holiday Horses Welcome Polaris
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I dunno, my experiences have been all positive. Everywhere I go with the Fjords, I'm a superstar! People are so intrigued by them and kids want to hug them. Fellow boarders love their cuteness and their mellow natures, and barn owners love how easy they are to care for (except for the odd escape attempt)! I guess I don't know any serious competitors so I don't get much snobbery, and I have to admit that some breeds are more suited to certain disciplines. What I enjoy about introducing people to Fjords is breed promotion -- I'd wager that 90% of prospective horse buyers want a safe, fun mount for trails and casual competition only, and the Fjord definitely fits that bill! / )_~ /L/L Brigid Wasson SF Bay Area, CA _www.Brigid.Clickryder.com_ (http://www.brigid.clickryder.com/)
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: Laura Kranzusch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Lisa: Ok I admit when I first started riding Bjorn, I thought Fjords were strange looking. I was also told that they were really stubborn, so natually I didn't want to ride one. Then I was forced to:) I thought, they aren't stubborn. See, the culture at my barn is very clique oriented. You have the people who only ride real horses, Friesians, Lipizzans, etc Then you have the people who will ride anything, and love all horses. The snobby people are actually reallu surprised at what Bjorn can do (jump, dressage, trail rides). Anyway, I mostly let it go, but every once and a while it gets me:) Glad to read that others have had similar experiences. -Laura Proud mommy of North Creek Bjorn!
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: Genie Dethloff [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is from: Laura Kranzusch [EMAIL PROTECTED] I also have been doing bending exercises to work on his headset. Anyway, I was turning pretty tight circles with him, and I was told that Fjords can't turn that tight! In my experience, a horse will turn as tight as he wants to turn. The main exercise we do wiith my Fjord to help him slow down his own rhytm is do do precise small circles. He can do very precise and well balanced 10 and 8 meter circles at the walk and trot, with a nice bend (of course it takes alot of work on my part to get him there!). He can also do awsome turns on the forehand and sidepasses. He is big and more of the drafty build, but to see him cross his legs under himself is a beautiful sight, much better than my Morgan or Hanoverian did! I am currently in a barn with very down to earth people, many western, several dressage, all colors and breeds of horses and everyone loves Finne and thinks he is the cutest. I am very lucky, but I am no longer at a fancy dressage barn, which suits me just fine. I did take him to a 5 day dressage clinic and all the women with their hugh warmbloods or Andulsions liked him. I think the cute factor wins people over and then if they pay attention, they can see how versitile and talented the Fjords really are. Many people are even envious that I have a horse with good energy and work ethic, but who is not at all spooky or stupid. Hang in there and be proud of your boy and the work you are doing with him. -- Genie Dethloff and Finne Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: Lisa Wiley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yeah what is that anyway. Many people I tell I have a fjord tell me they are stubborn. I have seen so little of this in the short time I have owned my mare. She was a PMU mare and is all fjord. Must have been a pet or had training because when she lunges it is perfect. You say whoa and she stops and squares up. She has loved treats from the day I got her. Always does what I want when she understands what I am telling her. I could not ask for more. My POA is ten times more stubborn! Lisa Wiley Turnabout Portuguese Water Dogs Connecticut State Director Ponies With Purpose http://www.angelfire.com/ar3/ponieswithpurposeinc/ http://www.geocities.com/summerct/horses.html http://www.geocities.com/summerct/Turnabout.html
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: bolinsj [EMAIL PROTECTED] Laura, I never found any prejudice with the riding folks. Of course, we trail ride. Comments were made that the Fjord is a great trail horse; very sturdy and sure footed. It would be different around here at the hunter-jumper stables. The main prejudice we found was with driving of all things. A lot of the driving people around here have blinders on with regard to 'suitable' driving breeds. The prejudice extends to drafts, mules and 'horses of color' (paints, palominos, appys). The driving club we belong to now has no such problem and we are really enjoying the difference. Martie in MD - waiting for a thaw Laura Kranzusch wrote: This message is from: Laura Kranzusch [EMAIL PROTECTED] On a side note, I forgot to mention that at the barn I board at, there is a HUGH prejudice against Fjords. So, yesterday when I lunged my boy, there was a Lippizan being lunged at the same time. The girl lunging the Lippazan made many remarks about how stubborn Fjords are, and how she had never seen one lunged before. Thankfully Bjorn was on his best behaviour and showd her that YES, Fjords CAN be lunged!! Also a couple of weeks ago, I was riding with some other people on regular horses as they call them. Well, I cantered Bjorn, and they were all shocked that he had such a nice collected canter. They didn't think Fjords could canter! He was a lesson horse before I bought him, and didn't have to canter on a dailly basis. I also have been doing bending exercises to work on his headset. Anyway, I was turning pretty tight circles with him, and I was told that Fjords can't turn that tight! In my experience, a horse will turn as tight as he wants to turn. Do any of you get the prejudice that I get for having a Fjord? It is completely ridicoulus! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: lunging Fjords Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:51:54 -0800 This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have had some trouble lunging my new Fjord I bought in August. She was very rusty in her ground manners and the first couple of times lunging her I was nearly run over, as she turned into me quickly and seriously. Again I turned to our trainer for some tips, as she is younger and faster. Also smarter, because she figured out very quickly that the trouble came at the walk. When you asked Kristi to walk, she assumed she was done and turned in and stopped, no matter what gesticulations you were making with your body and whip! When the trainer kept her at a trot, Kristi, for the most part, stayed on her circle and trotted. Problem kind of solved, though I still feel odd asking a horse to trot right out without walking a bit first. Valerie Columbia, CT Laura Kranzusch http://www.marykay.com/lkranzusch
Re: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I use Nina a lot for lunging riders in our Therapeutic Riding Program plus back riding plus any thing else I've asked. Frodo was an awesome vaulting mount in his day. Can't say that fjords are any different than any others when learning to lunge. Robyn in MD
RE: Prejudice against Fjords??
This message is from: Gail Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] My Fjords can do rollbacks on the fence just fine. And, yes, I have seen all kinds of prejudice against Fjords. Anyway, I was turning pretty tight circles with him, and I was told that Fjords can't turn that tight! In my experience, a horse will turn as tight as he wants to turn. Do any of you get the prejudice that I get for having a Fjord? It is completely ridicoulus!
